Build Your SaaS

Justin and Jon reconnect after a two-year podcasting hiatus. What's happened since their last episode? Lots! They talk about big changes in their personal lives, and then move on to how they're thinking about Transistor as a business. These discuss burnout and motivation, the evolution of the podcasting industry, the pressure of being a leader, and the possibility of taking a sabbatical. The Transistor team is off to Banff for their annual retreat!

Quote:
"Working hard does not lead to burnout, but the lack of hope leads to burnout. So if you're working really really hard for something that you don't believe will pay off, it's super easy to lose motivation. And that has happened to me in the past! But! If you believe that the thing you're working on will have a payoff, the amount of work almost doesn’t matter." – Aaron Francis

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Have feedback on this episode?
Timestamps:
  • (00:00) - Who remembers how to do this anyway?
  • (00:30) - Where has Jon been for the last 2 years?
  • (08:56) - What's Justin been up to?
  • (11:36) - Maybe there's more to burnout than we think
  • (24:40) - Should we build something else as a backup?
  • (27:31) - What need to be true for you to be happier?
  • (33:38) - Remote work kind of sucks
  • (39:06) - Brainstorming more ideas around connecting better
  • (42:32) - What about sabbaticals?
  • (51:03) - Thank you to our Patreon supporters
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Creators and Guests

Host
Jon Buda
Co-founder of Transistor.fm
Host
Justin Jackson
Co-founder of Transistor.fm
Editor
Chris Enns
Owner of Lemon Productions

What is Build Your SaaS?

Interested in building your own SaaS company? Follow the journey of Transistor.fm as they bootstrap a podcast hosting startup.

Jon:

I do the intro, I guess.

Justin:

You do the intro. Do you remember how?

Jon:

Yeah. Sure. Hey, everyone. Welcome to Build Your SaaS. This is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 2025.

Jon:

I'm John Buddha, a software engineer.

Justin:

And I'm Justin Jackson. I do product and marketing. Follow along as we build and run transistor.fm. John, we're back.

Jon:

Yeah. It's been, it's been a while. Two years, which is hard hard to believe.

Justin:

I've missed doing this I've missed doing this with you.

Jon:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Maybe we just gotta re reboot it. Every week, we could just get on a call like this.

Jon:

I think we've we've probably tried to do this, like, a dozen times. Yeah. And it never worked out.

Justin:

I mean, a lot was going on.

Jon:

Part part yeah. There's a lot going on. Part of it is this is not necessarily the thing that gives me energy like you.

Justin:

What are we doing here, John? What is it is it drain your battery a little bit?

Jon:

A little bit. Yeah.

Justin:

Okay. Okay. I mean, that's the heart. We'll we'll talk about that later. I I there's a great topic about burnout that we could talk about a bit later.

Justin:

But, yeah, it's been two years. I I think the last time we peered on an episode together was our Nashville team retreat episode. And then the last episode where it was just the two of us, 04/19/2023. Jeez. That's right after we hired Josh Anderton, and we did an update episode.

Justin:

So

Jon:

Wow.

Justin:

It has been a while.

Jon:

It's been a while. I don't yeah.

Justin:

Nothing's really happened

Jon:

since then. Right?

Justin:

You had a lot happen.

Jon:

You There was a lot.

Justin:

What what's going on in the last two years since people last heard from you?

Jon:

The last two years, honestly, beyond one year, I don't even remember. But the last two years there's been a lot. So I got married in October 2024. Yeah. Right?

Jon:

What year Yeah is 2024. Which was super fun in Guatemala.

Justin:

It was really fun.

Jon:

You were there. There was a lot of a lot of friends of the podcast and friends of Transistor there.

Justin:

By the way Family. One of my favorite trips of all time. Just like Yeah. It's Getting to meet up with all of your friends. It was weird being with people that are all our age and just seeing the different I mean, for you, it probably felt like a high school reunion because a lot of those people you grew up with.

Jon:

Yeah.

Justin:

But for me, I was just like, it also felt like a high school reunion. And getting to meet all these people is like, some people are just having babies for the first time. Some people like me, like, my kids are all, you know, older. People all over the map and then just getting to hang out, like, while you and you and Wendy were getting married and doing all the photos and stuff, we were out exploring Guatemala. So it felt like summer camp.

Justin:

It was so fun.

Jon:

It was really fun. Yeah. Was a it was a really nice time to see everyone. Yeah. Guatemala is a beautiful place.

Jon:

And you and and your wife and Wendy and I all kind of traveled a little bit together afterwards for a couple days too, which was

Justin:

super Went to Lake Atitlan? Is that how you call it?

Jon:

Yeah. Atitlan. Yeah. Yeah. And hung out at a nice hotel and just kind of relaxed a little bit.

Justin:

Vernon and I still talk about that too. Just the most beautiful, like, sunsets. It was you felt like you were just in a different world.

Jon:

Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a super relaxing place.

Justin:

Except for except for when Lauren and I got caught in a sudden downpour. And then

Jon:

That's true.

Justin:

We had to, like

Jon:

And we had to had to call the boat for you or something to come rescue you?

Justin:

Yeah. We were like over like, we were staying on one side of the lake, and then Lerner and I decided to go out kinda late in the afternoon to the other side of the lake. And we didn't realize that the ferry only ran until a certain time. And so we missed the ferry, and then it just started downpouring like this crazy storm. And we had to message you on WhatsApp and say, please send a boat for us.

Jon:

Yeah.

Justin:

Some guy came and rescued us in the rain and oh, man.

Jon:

Yeah. That was wild. Oh, man. Yeah. But that was that was all super super fun wedding.

Justin:

Was that just a year that was just the like, it'll be your one year anniversary this October.

Jon:

Wow, man. Yeah. A lot it was a busy year. So following that, we had been talking a while, my wife and I, about, I don't know, potentially moving somewhere. Mhmm.

Jon:

So we decided to do a road trip in March for six weeks across The US, Western US mostly. And the first place we stopped was Fort Collins in Colorado and we have friends here, a friend of mine that I grew up with who you met at Yeah, the

Justin:

he's hilarious.

Jon:

Him and his him and his wife and kids. So we stayed here for a couple weeks and so it was the first stop on the tour and they had a friend who was a realtor and we were just like, well let's look around and see what's around. Not really thinking we would you know find a place or buy a place and we found a place and we put in an offer and got it and then continued on the road trip for four more weeks and then you know came back to Chicago and realized we had to sell two different places and move and pack up two places and you know find a moving company and figure out all that moving cross country. So that that was like the month of May was incredibly busy. And then we we finally got we finally got here in the June and everything went really smoothly.

Jon:

Both, you know, selling and buying and finding movers. We found some good movers. Yeah. I'm glad that's over, but it was it was a lot.

Justin:

I mean, your place looks pretty set up. Your your place looks more set up than my place. I still don't have art up in on some of my walls.

Jon:

Oh, no. We have, yeah, we have a guest room that's just the bed is full of artwork and a couple boxes, and the garage is full of stuff. So it's coming along. It's it's been really nice.

Justin:

I remember you saying you're going on that road trip because I you'd been kind of, like, not happy in Chicago for a while. Just wanted to get somewhere else, was ready to move Yeah. Was ready to try something else. I think this also relates to this burnout topic we're gonna talk about in a bit. But and I I remember saying, well, you should just go and check some places out.

Justin:

And then I I couldn't believe it when you, like, stopped in Fort Collins and you're like, oh, yeah. We put in an offer. We're buying this place.

Jon:

We had been here before years ago and had an idea we liked it, but we just really liked it when we stayed here. And everyone's all the neighbors and everyone's just been, like, super nice and welcoming. It's a nice change of pace from Chicago. Although, you know, we'll miss Chicago and it's an amazing city, but we've been there for a long time and just

Justin:

Looking for something different. Yeah.

Jon:

Something different. Yeah. And so we did it. And it was yeah. Those few months were, like, really tough to get work done and and, like, any momentum on things.

Jon:

There was just, a million other things going on. Yeah. But we did it. And now we're here.

Justin:

Yeah. I I mean, and this is what when we started the company, this was one of the original visions is that we said, okay, if we could just get to the point where this replaces our salaries, and then beyond that, if it just if the company gives us room and margin to have a good life to, you know, I need to move. Mhmm. We can move. You know?

Justin:

There's not a big deal. Yeah. Both you and I have both bought new houses and moved since we started the company.

Jon:

Yeah.

Justin:

It it's it's enabled, I think, more than we could have really ever asked for or dreamed. Yeah. It's been incredible.

Jon:

Yeah. I've talked about that with a lot of people of just like how grateful I am for the company and coworkers and and you and having this all work out because I I don't know how anyone would move across the country with a regular job.

Justin:

Yeah. I

Jon:

don't I don't understand how anyone would do it.

Justin:

Yeah. You you you I mean, you have

Jon:

to I mean, people do all the time.

Justin:

You'd to use vacation time.

Jon:

Take time off. Yeah. It's

Justin:

it's having having the capacity for a company to have the capacity for people to live their lives feels first of all, it doesn't happen enough. And then, yeah, when you're in that position, you just feel super fortunate. Like, wow, this is great. We get to do this. That's awesome.

Jon:

Yeah. That's great.

Justin:

That's awesome, man. Yeah. Well, I've this past summer, I well, not this past summer. Yeah. This past summer, we we moved my second oldest out to Toronto to go to college out there.

Justin:

So now I have two kids out of the house. Sadie and Marty are both in school. And then I just have two at home, grade 11, grade 12. So I'm I'm entering into an interesting phase where I've been mostly I mean, mostly my whole life. Mostly my whole life, I've just been focused on trying to grind and provide for my family.

Justin:

And it's been it's been interesting as the kids have started to move out, and then as the older two are just more independent, how for the first time, I feel like I have the space to kind of be introspective and go, wait, what what do I want? Am I a human being? Like, what what what's going on with me? You know? And realizing what a weight that's been on me to have, you know and there's still, you know I'm still helping my kids out while they go to college.

Justin:

And, you know, there's still caregiving lots of caregiving ahead of me, but it's certainly different than the other phases of family life.

Jon:

Yeah.

Justin:

And, yeah, I it's it's again, I think having I'm just so grateful that the company that Transistor is at this phase right now where as I'm now 45 and thinking all these probably 45 year old thoughts like, who am I? What do I want? What do I want for the next phase of my life?

Jon:

Why why does my back hurt?

Justin:

My back hurt all the time. And and kind of even opening up, having the energy and time to even focus on things that I would have never I I didn't really have energy to focus on before, personally. Yeah. It's been it's been really nice to have that space. And, yeah, feels like I'm at a another kind of pivot point.

Justin:

We'll see what what happens.

Jon:

It seems it seems like it kind of based on the the stuff you've been sending me and the and the things we've talked

Justin:

about Yeah. Recently. Well, let's let's get into some of that. So Aaron Francis writes this great weekly newsletter. I think he calls it this week at Tryhard Studios, which is his company.

Justin:

And from the 09/05/2025 issue, was this article and a series of tweets about how burnout might not just be from, you know, burning yourself out physically and mentally. Know, you're burning the candle at both ends. That's our typical definition of burnout. And Aaron says the idea that working hard does not lead to burnout, but the lack of hope leads to burnout. So if you're working really, really hard for something that you don't believe will pay off, it's super easy to lose motivation.

Justin:

And that's happened to me in the past. If you believe that the thing you're working on will have a payoff, the amount of work almost doesn't matter.

Jon:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. There's something about that that idea. Now, I I still think that the traditional form of burnout exists, but this idea that there's this other kind of burnout. So if burnout is like a kind of numbness or persistent lack of motivation, a kind of deadening inside Yeah. You know, that can be caused by, you know, depression and overwhelm.

Justin:

And, you know, I've had entrepreneurial friends who've gotten shingles. They've been so stressed out. So stress and overwhelm, you know, that definitely is one form of burnout. But this idea of like, man, I'm I'm working on something, but I no longer see the reason. I no longer am motivated by this.

Justin:

I think I can identify.

Jon:

Yeah. I can identify to that. Maybe not in transistor. I really haven't felt that necessarily with transistor, but certainly previous jobs where you just like you reach a point and you're like, I don't care Yeah. Anymore.

Jon:

And you just sort of I mean, I guess I guess it's burnout, but it's just like, don't really want to be working on this. I don't care about the end result. And then at that point, it's I feel like it's just over and you gotta find a way out or something.

Justin:

For me, what was kind of striking about this whole concept is that there's times I think I haven't realized I've been in this mode. Like, I just keep going to the office, and then I would get to the office and I'd be, like, staring at my screen and being like, how come I can't get going? What's what's what's going on here?

Jon:

And you've and you felt that with Transistor too?

Justin:

I think sometimes in the industry yeah. And and also just maybe also just wondering, like, what's the motive? I mean, a longtime listeners to the show will know that this isn't the first time we've kind of talked about these feelings. And I had this great call with Jason Cohen, the the founder of WP Engine. And he said, you know, Justin, what are you feeling?

Justin:

And I said, well, I don't know. Like, what do I have? What do I have the right to feel anything about? Like, it's you know, things are great. I'm healthy.

Justin:

My kids are healthy. My wife's healthy. We we got a house. We got the car. We've, you know, we've got this company.

Justin:

We got a great team. It's still growing. Like, what do I have to be unhappy about? And he said, well, actually, the it's super common at your stage. We've been doing transistor almost eight years, I think.

Justin:

Yeah. And he says, it's just super common for for founders at this stage to be like, like, what what are we doing this for now? And in the beginning, it's just so clear. Like, when we started recording the show, I've been going back to old episodes. And one thing I gotta say is having this record of everything like, I'd forgotten about so many of the conversations we've had.

Jon:

Yeah. I need I haven't I honestly haven't really re relistened to many of those at all. Should do that.

Justin:

It's I find it kind of healthy, like, just yeah. There's something I mean, in terms of reflecting back and having perspective, it's so helpful to have this record of us talking things out. And at the beginning of the show, you know, we were motivated by, like, we're trying to build this product. We're trying to build this company. We're trying to replace this thing.

Justin:

And then the motivation changes, you know. And so I don't think it's existential or anything. I think I'm just again at a point where I'm like, okay, well, my kids are almost out of the house.

Jon:

Mhmm.

Justin:

I'm 45. And I think the podcast hosting industry has definitely reached a point of maturity. Like, as I've gone and talked to the podcast industry is so unique in that the competitors are actually pretty friendly with each other.

Jon:

Yeah. It seems like we're

Justin:

recently lost Todd Cochran, the founder of Blueberry, who's a competitor. And he, you know, he was a friend. And his death, like, affected a lot of folks in the industry. But, you know, speaking to everybody, I think we've all recognized, like, podcast hosting now is a I mean, you said this too. It's kind of a commodity.

Justin:

It's we've matured.

Jon:

Yeah. They're all all the competitors are basically the same with, like, different little, you know, different little things on top that they've come up with on their own or little differences here and there. But ultimately, it's like the same

Justin:

Yeah.

Jon:

Stuff.

Justin:

And so, yeah, I think it's also been helpful for me to go back. And I've just been looking at, for example, all of our historical revenue numbers and looking at when, you know, when did we really grow and what have we done since. And the whole industry kind of experienced this, you know, you and I started Transistor when the market had just kind of expanded because of cereal, because podcasts were just kind of in the public consciousness for the first time. Saturday Night Live was doing skits on podcasts for the first time. You know, all of sudden, it was like, this was a new thing.

Justin:

It wasn't new, but this was a new thing that a lot of people were discovering. And the market went from being kind of this big, smaller to it just like expanded really quick. And so our first, you know, twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, we're just gobbling up market share. And then the pandemic happened. And again, perspective is so interesting because at the time, you and I were kind of struggling.

Justin:

It was just like the pandemic and all the politics and all, you know, the shutdown. It was like depressing. And I I think at the time, we didn't even quite recognize what was happening. But the company grew a ton in 2020. Like, it would if you look at the numbers, it's like in the hundreds of percentage points.

Justin:

Like, it's it it was just a massive increase. And the same with 2021. And since then, we've basically grown every year, but by the same amount. So that that chunk of new revenue we're getting every year has not changed a lot. And there's part of it for me, I think I was just like, man, we've built a lot of things since then.

Justin:

And, you know, part of building something is just because you wanna build it, because you wanna see it in the world as a podcaster, because I wanna use it myself. But another motivating part is like, oh, man. It'd be nice to see a direct correlation between

Jon:

Yeah.

Justin:

This thing that we're building and then new revenue.

Jon:

Yeah. But I think yeah. But I guess going back to your point of like at the beginning, we had these concrete goals of like, all right, we want to make this much so that at this point we can make this our full time job. Then we want to be each making this much amount of money at this point in time. Now it's like, yeah sure we want some more customers and more revenue but like to what end, what does that even achieve?

Jon:

Like it's not going to change our lives anymore. So that motivating factor isn't there. I mean it's like I still get motivated by building certain features that are cool and exciting and customers might like it but at the end of the day, it might not really move the needle or it might. And if it does move the needle, like what does moving the needle mean? It does.

Jon:

It's not going to dramatically change our lives. Yeah. Which I think maybe is part of the burnout discussion of like what are you working towards because if it's just numbers and money, it's we're already at that point.

Justin:

Yeah. What's the what's the point?

Jon:

What's the motivating factor? So, yeah, it's I don't know I don't know that we know the answer to that at the moment. Right? Because we've been talking about it.

Justin:

Well, and this is what was so helpful about that chat with, Jason Cohen is he kind of gave me this framework. I can link it in the show notes, but it's a framework for getting what you want as a startup founder. And he basically says, okay. Well, you each John and Justin, you each need to ask, what do you want? And to be clear about it.

Justin:

And it might just be reaffirming something you've always felt. Like, maybe like in your case, maybe it hasn't changed that much. And maybe for me, it has changed, and I need to be honest about it. But just getting really clear about, okay, now, at this stage of my life, what is the next thing I want that's going to be motivating for me? Or it could even just be a thing.

Justin:

I mean, another thing that was kind of maybe affecting me was going, you know, do I like being in this industry? Like, I I need to ask myself that question. And, you know, every time I go to a podcast conference, I kind of have this feeling of like, do I still like this? There's been so much more focus on YouTube. And, you know, the big centralized platforms were already kind of in there.

Justin:

And it for me, there was something about these big platforms dominating the conversation that was demotivating. Because I've always been into the independent publishing and the openness of RSS. And, you know, for a while, that really fired me up getting more involved in the podcast standards project. And, you know, being like, okay, we're gonna, like, improve RSS. We're gonna innovate on top of RSS.

Justin:

But even that, you know, it there's like I think the worst feeling in the world is just this feeling of like, is is this effort that I'm applying to this thing, is it worth the output that we're getting? And likewise, is there somewhere else I could be applying that effort that would be maybe more motivating or energizing? And it's so hard to know. Because again, on one hand, things are great.

Jon:

Yeah.

Justin:

And on the other hand, there's part of me that's like, I wonder. I wonder. And maybe there's also for me, one difference between you and I is just like, because I still have all these kids, there's like, through college, supporting the kids through college, I just still have, you know, probably at least another decade of helping my kids get established as adults. And there's still part of me that is still kind of building up my my personal nest egg even for retirement and things like that. So financially, I'm still looking at my okay.

Justin:

I gotta support my kids through this. And then and then it's like, oh, and then I still gotta, like, continue to build up a good nest egg for when I retire. And so, yeah, I'm just always thinking about at 45, how many how many more years do I have in me?

Jon:

Right. Yeah. I mean, I think about the same thing and that, you know, we don't have kids and but it's at the same time, it's like, you got to prepare for some unknown future of like how much money are we gonna need or what's the retirement like or Yeah. How much is all this stuff gonna cost? It's like totally unknown at this point.

Jon:

It's not I don't think you can depend on anything anymore.

Justin:

Yeah. I mean and even as stable as transistor is, I think in the back of my mind, there's always like, uh-huh. Maybe we need to hedge our bets. You know? Maybe we need to and you see like, Ian Landsman at Helpspot is doing this right now.

Justin:

You know? He's he's building a second product. And, you know, Helpspot's doing fine, but there's always that feeling of like, okay, I got this thing that's working. But wouldn't wouldn't I feel like a dummy if in ten years, you know, everything had fallen apart and I hadn't also made a backup plan, you know?

Jon:

And that's and that's that is one option we could do is, as a company, to spin off a new thing. But I don't think we've necessarily had any of those ideas. A few a few here and there, they're I think they're all kind of related to podcasting and maybe

Justin:

Yeah. I think if we did something else, it would have to be adjacent to podcasting. Personally, I would like it to be in the creator market. You know? I've been thinking a lot about spots still, spots.fm, which was this idea you and I had early on.

Justin:

And at the time, we didn't pursue it because we were like we started going down that path and we're like, what are we doing? We're two people. We can't we can't do this. We decided to just, you know, double down on the core business. But there is something about sponsorships.

Justin:

And I think enabling creators to have any piece of content, which was the original vision of Spots, any piece of content sponsored, where you could have these sponsored blocks kind of everywhere, you know, and people can just grab a block, grab a spot, and say, oh, you're you're making a new YouTube video on the pharmaceutical industry. Well, I want to sponsor that episode. Or you write a weekly newsletter. Well, I want to sponsor your next six months. Or you you have sponsored posts on Instagram.

Justin:

Well, I want to sponsor five of them. And that might be worth looking at again, you know, that that might be one adjacent idea that we could pursue. The going back to Jason Cohen's framework, the the one thing I really loved that was, you know, identifying what each person wants in a partnership. And then he said both partners need to be equally committed to helping the other person get what they want. And it's so simple, but I just thought that was such a beautiful way of of describing really any any partnership or marriage or anything.

Justin:

Having that that idea of, okay, this person's an individual and they have things they want. I'm an individual. I have things I want. And the key is we just need to be equally committed to helping each other get what we want. Now that's not to say everything's realistic or everything's gonna happen.

Jon:

But Yeah. I mean, you know, if you want a yacht, like,

Justin:

that's I do

Jon:

want a yacht. Not gonna happen. Okay.

Justin:

And the other thing that was helpful from Jason was just saying, like, this is this is kind of a process you need to do every year. I think we have done a version of this most years where you and I have gotten together and at least, you know, reviewed things and said, okay, what do we want? And and he says it's messy, you know, like, you say, okay, you know, what what would need to be true, for example this is such a great question. What would need to be true for Justin to really like this industry again? And on one hand, know, one thing that I've been trying is like, well, I could get more involved with podcast standards and invest more time and leadership and energy in the Podcast Standards Project.

Justin:

So I've been trying that out. And there's part of that's been really gratifying. You know, a part part of me going to this conference in Dallas, I was like, okay. Well, if if if I'm not feeling it there, I'm done. You know?

Justin:

And maybe unfortunately, or fortunately, there's just so many people that came up to me individually and said, I really appreciate your efforts on this Podcast Standards Project. And so okay. That you know, there's part of that that kind of that is motivating. But what else would need to be true for me to really feel good about the podcast industry? Unfortunately, it would mean Apple Podcasts would need to step up in a much bigger way.

Justin:

And, you know, I think Jason's kind of framing of this is if if you're expecting if you're basing your decisions on a hope that something will be true, and that thing is just very unlikely to be true, then you've got to consider that in terms of, like, what you're gonna do.

Jon:

Yeah. I mean, as as close as we are with the Apple people and as nice as they are, like, they're not they just they do their own thing, right, on their own timeline.

Justin:

And Yeah.

Jon:

Who knows what that is? And usually, it's, they announce it the last minute.

Justin:

Yeah. And it Man, it's yeah. It's kind of frustrating.

Jon:

Yeah. A little bit. And But

Justin:

You know? But this is the thing. Like, it's that's kind of like, you know, you've got a friend, and you're like, man, I I'm tired of this friend always, you know, doing this. And it's like, well, maybe you should just not go to the bar with your friend anymore. You know?

Justin:

And so I don't know what the answer is, but I think just processing some of that has been

Jon:

Yeah. I think from my from my side of things, it's a little different. I mean, I don't go to as many conferences as you. I don't I mean I'm in the podcast industry but I don't necessarily feel like that all the time because I'm just building the technology and that's what's interesting to me is writing code and building things that are interesting and fun and just you know, I like to see our customers use it and experience it and hopefully like it but it's not like I feel the industry bearing down on me in any way. Aside from the video stuff, which is a thing we've talked about for a long time and it's sort of like this, I don't know, elephant in the room of like, how do we do this the right way if we're gonna do it and try to like, I don't know, not even compete with YouTube but just like, I don't know, operate alongside of them and just give in and be like, well, we're not gonna beat them.

Jon:

So we might as well join

Justin:

them Yeah.

Jon:

Or something.

Justin:

I mean, the podcast industry has kinda always had that that because as independent as it is, like, the the protocol is independent, but the distribution has always been, you know, Apple Podcasts. And then there was other but even, like, overcast. Like, we we I would love to get a hold of Marco, And it's he's just hard to get ahold of. He does he's doing his thing and so Mhmm. We're all kind of, like, dependent on each other.

Justin:

And there is more collaboration possible. That's, again, one reason I got involved with Podcast Standards Project was I think we can advocate together as a group of hosting companies and independent apps. And, you know, we could speak as a group to Apple. We can speak as a group to Spotify and to YouTube. Yeah.

Justin:

But there is this dependency that, you know, to participate in the industry I mean, you felt this. Like, there's been some things you've had to build with Apple and Spotify and YouTube that are real headaches, and we just have to do it because it's just gotta get done. You know, I think those from the engineering perspective, those have been the most demotivating. That's when it's like

Jon:

Yeah. Those are pretty demotivating. Yeah. Some of the recent stuff too even. I mean, this is a tangent, but yeah.

Jon:

It's I was trying to get some stuff done with an integration on my own and then once Jason and I finally just sort of like started tag teaming get together, it was like way more exciting and just like way it's so yeah, just it's easy to forget that working with someone on something is way more motivating than not.

Justin:

Yeah. I think that's a good point. Like diagnosing burnout or lack of motivation, sometimes the answer is, like, I think they call that body doubling.

Jon:

Yeah. I I read about that recently only. Yeah. Like, the other day. And I was like, oh, interesting.

Justin:

I've definitely discovered that. Like, I, you know, I I I've hired my kids to help me do certain things and with the with my Canadian company. And that's, like, one of the things I'll often do is I'll be like, call them up and say, I just need you to be on the phone with me while I do these taxes. Yeah. And it is way more motivating to just have someone there

Jon:

Yeah.

Justin:

To be talking it out with them. You know, I'll get frustrated and my daughter will be like, dad, like, just calm down. Okay. What's, you know, three things you could do right now to Yeah. Just we're social creatures, you know?

Jon:

Yeah.

Justin:

So I think but even that is an interesting observation, which is I think what I like about this kind of reflecting time is it it helps me to question my reality. So I'll give you an example. You and I have always been committed to remote work. Remote work is in so many ways awesome. It enabled you and I to start this company.

Justin:

It enables us to have people that live all over the world. It gives you all of us flexibility. You know, people have tried moving to Italy for a little while or going on a trip and just working while they're on the trip. It is incredible in so many ways. But it's also kind of refreshing to take a look at and go, in so many ways, work sucks.

Justin:

It sucks to not go into an office and have people there, you know, and and Yeah. Yeah. And be like, hey, like, can we just work on this together side by side? There's something about that that is amazing and that we're missing out on. Everything is a series of pros and cons, but it's it's nice to at least reflect on how could this be different?

Justin:

Or am I happy doing this? Would I be happier if it was different?

Jon:

Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, we have our we have our retreat coming up next week. In a couple days, we're leaving. I mean, it's probably something we should talk about, but it's I feel like every time we get together as a team it's like we get really excited and motivated about certain things and then we we all go home and it's like it just sort of slowly not really fizzles out but like you lose that momentum.

Jon:

And then some of it sticks and, you know, some of it doesn't but like I feel like if we were maybe all together more often, it would kind of, you know, linger on a little more.

Justin:

That's a good point. I didn't even think about that. But you're right. Like, I mean, again, it's pros and cons. There is a real advantage.

Justin:

You know, I'm here in this coworking place, and I have my own little cave here, my own little office. And the truth is a lot of time I close the door, and I'm just trying to focus on stuff in my own world. So there's an advantage to that. But Michael, who's on our team, is here in Vernon. And every once in a while, he'll stop by the coworking place, and he'll knock on my door and say, hey, I just want to ask you about this, or can we work on this together?

Justin:

And that there's an energy about that, which is just running into somebody. And it kind of the the thread. So if you start a thread at the retreat, and it's like, you know what we're gonna do? We're gonna focus on this. We're gonna build this.

Justin:

Know, like monetization is something we've wanted to do from the day you and I got together. We have mock ups of like a Stripe donation feature from almost like the first week. And I think part of the reason we haven't been able to execute on that is if the thread just kind of gets lost. It's easy to get lost when you're not like running to get into each other all the time. Like, if you and I were in the same town, and it's like, hey, John, let's go for coffee.

Justin:

And we're we walked to the coffee shop. And as we're talking, it's like, oh, man, whatever happened to that? Like, we we gotta we gotta do that thing, you know? I was just in Toronto, and went and hung out with Adam Waddon at his house. And it was so interesting.

Justin:

He has this beautiful home. But the first like, you go in the entryway, and then the first room off to the left is this kind of big workspace. And he's kind of set it up as like a co working space for him and Steve, his co founder. Steve comes by every single day.

Jason:

Really?

Justin:

Every single day. And it's just kind of like and while I was there, Caleb Porzio had driven up from Buffalo, and he was working out of that little space. And so there every single day, Adam wakes up, goes and makes himself a cup of coffee, goes in, and some days Steve's sitting there at the desk. And that's that's just such an interesting

Jon:

Yeah.

Justin:

To see how other people work and how they keep their energy and motivation. And the rest of their team is is remote. But yeah, there's there's there's something about being in person that is very motivating that you just lose when you're remote.

Jon:

Yeah, definitely.

Justin:

So and maybe there's ways to this is what, again, is great about Jason Cohen's framework because then you you're at least imagining, like, okay. What you can say, okay. You know what? I want to work on a team that's more colocated. Okay.

Justin:

Well, let's go explore that. And then you just explore all the different paths and be like, okay. Well, I could move to Fort Collins and be like, oh, then I'd have to live in The US. I don't really wanna live in The US. John's not gonna move to Canada.

Justin:

He just got settled in Fort Collins. Okay. What's what are some of the things? I mean, we could just get way more disciplined about flying to see each other. We could have more team retreats.

Justin:

We could make sure that the next people we hire are in our respective towns. So we just have, you know Yeah. There's all sorts of things you could explore there. And or it could even just be, like, something as simple as, like, if if you and I record a podcast more frequently, we feel more connected and more motivated. And

Jon:

Yeah. That's true. Yeah.

Justin:

There there's all sorts of ways you can Yeah.

Jon:

Could be that.

Justin:

You can you can kinda manage that. Running a company is interesting because I I think this is something that you just can't keep having to learn is, you know, you and I come together to work on this idea. And even that, any sort of partnership is already has its own challenge. Like, you are kind of glued to that other person in a way.

Jon:

Mhmm.

Justin:

And and there's this this dynamic that Jason's exposed, which is, yeah, we both have to be kind of committed to get helping the other person get what they want. It And was so easy in the beginning because, basically, it was like, we both wanted the freedom.

Jon:

It was the same thing. Yeah. We wanted the exact same thing. And now, I don't know, maybe not.

Justin:

Maybe not. But also, I think what what's interesting is, you know, one of the things that I think ended up being motivating for us was like, you know what? Like, it'd be like, you wanted to work with another engineer, and I wanted to work some other people, and I didn't want to do customer support all the time. And, you know, so Yeah. We ended up hiring other people to help us.

Justin:

It's been great. Like, people are continuously astounded. I again, when I was in Dallas, we were sitting around at this table with a very large podcast company that does advertising everything. And she turned to me and she goes, how many people are on your team? I said, oh, we we have six.

Justin:

And she's like, what? And Dean Schrizlin was there kinda laughing, and he's like, yeah, their team is incredibly efficient. So it's been it's been incredible to have this little team. But then it just it does add this other dynamic, which is John and I the team needs direction. The team needs leadership.

Justin:

The team needs and each team member also has their own individual things that are motivating them.

Jon:

Yeah.

Justin:

And John and I need to and I think this became even more prescient because you and I knew we had this retreat that we're going on. And we're like, what is going to be the focus of the retreat? Like, we want to do some work sessions together. And then we also want to be able to say, hey, folks, like, we're steering the ship in this direction. You know?

Justin:

So John and I need to get aligned. We need to decide, first of all, personally, what do we individually want? Right? Like, we don't want to be going after something that's somebody else's dream. We wanna be pursuing something that we want.

Justin:

And then we have to translate that into a vision and a direction for the team. Think that's what brought up this whole idea of sabbaticals.

Jon:

Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

So, yeah, I one one thing that we've talked about for a while, we talked about this almost from the beginning, is this idea of it'd be nice after we'd been working on transistor for five, six, seven years to take a sabbatical. Mhmm. And as I was talking to Jason Cohen, he was also like, he's like, you know what? Like, also, you've been doing this for almost eight years. He's like, it's time to take a break.

Justin:

I will say you and I have not been great at taking breaks. We've taken a few.

Jon:

I mean, we've taken vacations, but I do feel like we never really disconnect that much. Yeah. And it's it's hard for me to do that.

Justin:

Yeah. It's hard for me too.

Jon:

Yeah. I mean, the idea of a sabbatical is, like, exciting but sort of terrifying at one point. At the same time like I think we're both so used to it. It's just like we've been doing it for so long it's like part of our lives. We don't hate it.

Jon:

We're not we're not miserable. So it's not like the stress of it is forcing us to take a sabbatical but I think it would probably be good to take a break and like let your mind kind of wander on other stuff and have some other, I don't know, goals lined up that you wanna Mhmm. Personally do or whatever. But, yeah, the thought of it is

Justin:

is interesting. Little scary. I I think the hard thing for me and this isn't just with transistor, but you and I are this is why one reason you and I worked well together for so long is we like to work. And there's something like, I'm just used to getting up every day and cranking this crank of work. And Mhmm.

Justin:

I have been doing that almost every single day, almost every single week since I was 20. Get up every day. Yeah. And I'm just used to pulling this crank. Same.

Justin:

Yeah. I yeah. We're this is we're very similar. And I think it's it is a bit scary to think like, I don't know what my life would be like if I'm not consuming this is kind of the thing I hate about weekends and vacations is that if I truly disconnect, I've gotten a bit better at this, but, like, normally, I'm just activated in a way that is just kind of always on consuming information, acting on information, putting things in motion. And putting things in motion, it kind of requires that you continually crank this crank.

Justin:

You're continuously consuming some sort of fire hose from customers and from the internet and from the industry and keeping your eyes wide open for opportunities and looking at threats. It's just always on my mind. To think about not being on that treadmill or that hamster wheel is kind of like what what would happen to me. Yeah. You know?

Gavin:

Yeah. I think yeah. I think you'd have

Jon:

to, like, preplan on replacing that with something else. Mhmm. Whatever that whatever that may be.

Justin:

But I would be interested if anyone out here out in listener land has done a sabbatical or even you know, one thing I think you and I have been throwing around is like, man, a three month sabbatical, which is what we've always kind of thought of, is there's something about that that just feels overwhelming. And I have friends that like worked for automatic, which did three months sabbaticals. They said that sometimes it felt like their first sabbaticals were there's so much pressure leading up to it. And, you know, then they ended up feeling like a lot of it was just like it was too overwhelming thinking about a three month block at first. And so, you know, I've been talking about even just like me taking a concerted vacation that's two, three, four weeks long and practicing truly disconnected.

Jon:

Deleting all deleting all the apps on

Justin:

your phone. Deleting everything off my phone, just putting systems in place, like, so other people are you know, any emails get looked at. And the advantage you and I have is that we are two people. And so we can trade off. Like, there's always going to be a leader available.

Justin:

You know?

Jon:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for for me, I would I think my concern now is, like, I would feel bad leaving Jason as like the sole engineer because you know I was in that spot for what a couple years and it was it's a lot. I mean you know things run well but like you know problems happen and then like Jason has stuff he wants to do that doesn't involve work and he's not always gonna be around. So that'd be something we'd have to figure out.

Jon:

Yeah. Talk, you know, talk to Jason or like find someone to help out temporarily or even permanently and who knows? Yeah.

Justin:

I don't It'd be interesting if there's like a like a on demand consultant that you could just bring in for those times. Like, just say, like, hey. Like, we we just need somebody to call who knows our stack and our especially our infrastructure stuff that can Mhmm. Parachute in if we need somebody. Yeah.

Justin:

But, I mean, that might just not exist. That's one of the reason you hire people is that it's it's it's nice to have, you know, some folks that can can be kinda always on. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's always gonna be obstacles.

Justin:

But I do think in terms of, like, compared to a lot of other teams, we're a small team, but there is enough help and overlap there. Mhmm. And the other thing is that you can be disconnected, but, you know, the rule is, hey. Like, if you need to text me or call me, you have my text you have my my text and my phone, and, you know, I will likely be in somewhere that has cell phone coverage. So the I mean, unless I'm like, you know, unless I go back to Guatemala and hike that volcano, I might be but even then even then, we're we're

Jon:

Even then, probably cell

Justin:

phone service. Worst case scenario, if there's no cell phone service, and let's say everything goes to hell for forty eight hours, it's probably still gonna be fine. Like, yes, that would be hard. Yes, it would be stressful. But even in the worst case scenario, like, everything's falling down, there's, you know, servers are on fire and whatever.

Justin:

Even then, it wouldn't I I think it would still be fine. You know?

Jon:

Yeah. Could be. I mean, there's, you know, there's scenarios where it wouldn't be, but that's that's gonna be that would be pretty rare, I think.

Justin:

Well, this is good, man. I'm glad glad we got to do it. I I think let's try I I'm gonna try to put this on our schedule weekly again and just see how it feels. Man. But if I put it on weekly, then we might skip

Jon:

Maybe month. Maybe it

Justin:

would be month. But at least I'll put it on the schedule. You might not believe this, but we still have people supporting us on Patreon.

Jon:

I can't believe it.

Justin:

All these years.

Jon:

I mean, that's probably thanks to you actually posting some episodes once in a while with other people.

Justin:

That's right.

Jon:

So thank you.

Justin:

That's right. Yeah. We've got Pascal from sharpen. Page. We got rewardful.com.

Justin:

We've got Greg Park, Mitchell Davis from recruitkit.com.au. Marcel Folle from wearebold.af. Bill Condo. Ward from memberspace.com. Evandro Sassy.

Justin:

Now we're getting into the names that have been here forever. Austin Loveless, Michael Sitver, Colin Gray from Alitu. Nice to see you, Colin. And Dave Giunta.

Jon:

Giunta. You got to meet Dave.

Justin:

Yeah. Dave was at the wedding. Dave and I became fast buds there. It was Yeah.

Jon:

Dave's great.

Justin:

We've I was just texting with Dave yesterday. I I I have a long text message thread with Dave. Yeah. Yeah. It's been nice to keep that keep that connection going.

Jon:

Yeah. Thanks. Thanks to everyone for keeping, like, continually supporting us. Yeah. During our absence.

Justin:

And also just being around, you know, that's that's one thing I think I've realized is about this show is, you know, we started this journey and then just so many other people joined us. And whether it was just listening, whether it was listening and writing us an email, whether it was listening and, you know, sending us a DM with some ideas, whether so many listeners became customers. Yeah. Some listeners became employees, like Josh Anderton was a longtime listener. You know?

Jon:

I mean, we just had an we just had a customer the other day say something in our customer support chat about, like, he, you know, enjoyed listening to the early episodes

Justin:

Isn't that wild?

Jon:

Of this podcast. Yeah. It's like, what?

Justin:

I'm just blown away by it. We appreciate it. If you want us to be back every week, let us know.

Jon:

Just yell yell at us. Yeah. Just

Justin:

every every Friday, just, send us a message saying, hey, guys, can you please record? And then Yeah. Maybe if we get enough nudges, we'll get back on the mics.

Jon:

Alright,

Justin:

everyone. Till next time.

Jon:

Yeah. See you next time.

Justin:

Bye.