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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:01)
Welcome to Messy Liberation. This is our special Everything is Political series. Where we're going to help you draw the connections between your everyday life and the world around you. Let's get started.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:13)
thank you for joining us today. We've got a part of our Everything is Political series. So I'm just going to ask Sarah. if you could just introduce yourself and what you do, and then we'll get into it.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (00:26)
Thank you so much for having me. I am thrilled to be here. my name is Sarah Heater. I run a podcast production and strategic consultation company called PodFox Media. And it's, this is such a cool conversation to me because my educational background is all in politics and public policy and diplomacy. actually dreamed of working for the state department before I realized interning there that if you work for the state department, it's not about like.
what you think is good for the people involved. It's about representing the interests of each administration that turns over regularly. And I was like, that changes how I feel about this job. So obviously, like so many of us, I wound up going a direction that had nothing to do with my education at face value, which is entrepreneurship. And
When I started my company, part of my resistance to wanting to do it, even though I had experience with marketing and operations, is that I felt like I didn't want, I didn't feel like my purpose on this earth was to do podcasting. Like that didn't feel like it went together. And so I really built this company on the basis, the mission, the core values of amplifying underrepresented voices and the amazing work and expertise and lived experiences going on in our communities and in a variety of industries.
leveraging a platform like podcasting. That's actually what I love about it. But of course, it's messy. thank you for having me. yeah, just excited to dive in.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:52)
Yeah,
no, you were, when we were thinking about what different areas we wanted to discuss on this series and Becky was like, obviously podcasting because we have a podcast, right? I was like, we have to have Sarah. Cause I remember last year you did a series of conversations and you had like multiple people come in and I was able to participate in some of those and they were.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (02:12)
And Becky
too.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:13)
Yeah, yeah,
and they were really good conversations around different topics that were relevant to, you know, to stay in age and everything that's happening. So thank you for saying yes. We have a question that we want to open with, ⁓ and then we'll just see where the conversation takes us. with your, I feel like this question is kind of irrelevant now after you gave us like your history and your background and education and all of that. But
At what point did you realize that the podcasting space was a political space?
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (02:45)
Yeah, that's a deep question and I think, you know, at face value I want to say because of my background, I, like you all say, and hence the series, I think I came into entrepreneurship with a level of understanding that everything is political. But I think where it really hit me...
The first time of the immensity of responsibility in producing podcasts and helping people build platforms is the realization and almost fear of what do I do with, how do I plan for if I'm helping somebody build a platform that actually actively causes harm? Like, what do I do with that?
And how do I protect myself? How do I keep that from happening? How do I even know whether something is causing harm, right? All the messy stuff. And this is, you you referred to my podcast is called Big Brave Business. And so we talk about all of this too, right? Like the intersection of the big brave conversations about what it means to do business, kind of the business specific version of what y'all are doing here.
And yeah, I think those are the questions, right? Like, I can have my core values and I can have my beliefs and I can try to hire and run a team and et cetera, like based on that. But what do I do with like a paying customer and what they are doing with that platform? So I think that's where it really first hit me. And of course that only scratches the surface of how podcasting is political, but it is a big part of it because the medium is so...
intimate, I always say it mimics the intimacy of a phone call, it's dialogue based, right? And that's what makes it different from like YouTube or a newsletter is that this is a dialogue, this is the social part, right? And so even the person listening is engaging in this dialogue. You'll hear people make comments about listening to a podcast and hitting pause so that they can respond out loud because they feel like they're part of the conversation, right? This is not an uncommon phenomenon among podcast listeners. And so the power of that
is so huge for those of us who want to amplify the work we're doing to reach people and especially to leverage it as a business resource. There's so much opportunity in that, but there's also no level of fact checking, like even X.
which it still pains me to call it X. Even X has a level of, for better or for worse, fact checking, right? But on podcasts, you can literally just show up and say anything, and there are no methods of verification for that. Let alone, it could still be not necessarily about what's true and what's not, but again, what causes harm.
what you use that platform for. Amplifying voices means amplifying all voices and that's quickly a slippery slope, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (05:29)
Did you have a personal experience that brought that sort of to the front forefront for you? You don't have to name names, obviously, but like, did you have a client experience or somebody who wanted to be a client where you were like, no, I don't know, this is now starting to bring up these questions about my contribution to this harm.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (05:35)
Yeah, yeah, no, that's a great question.
Yes,
yes, I did. I had a client who I liked, but I had ideas about ways that we approached
the current state of affairs. And of course, this was six and a half years ago, but still applies differently. And the podcast had nothing to do at face value with politics. Now, of course, like everything is political, but at face value, it wasn't a political podcast. But what I noticed is that he shared on social media that he was hosting a...
campaign party for a local candidate who was very upset of my personal views and the way that I would want to approach things and it occurred to me, man, I knew I had a feeling about this individual and I having opposing political beliefs but
what do I do with this as that gets the lines get muddier? What if what if he says something about this campaign party? Do I cut it out? I mean, I'm editing the show. I get to decide. Right. And so like, that's where I started to think, ⁓ I need to have contractual things that address these issues so that I can have a transparent conversation with clients upfront before we ever even enter a paying agreement before there is a platform about where
my lines and boundaries are, what my best practices are, and at what point I determine we are no longer compatible to work together effectively immediately, like, what does that mean, right? And so yes, there was a specific. And then since then, there have been a smattering of people who have maybe come to me wanting to specifically start political podcasts, and we just let them know, like,
This is what we believe as far as amplifying voices and how important this medium is and how important it stays indie and grassroots, but also PodFox does not.
produce inherently political podcasts where like your goal is to talk about what's going on in politics. We do not produce those. That's like just way too complicated as to what we're putting our name on. But I mean, I would say my podcast itself, it personally is very political. I mean, but it's mostly about entrepreneurship and it's not necessarily about like candidates, if that makes sense. And so that's where and also I get to control what I say. I mean, like it's mine. So and so on. But but yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:47)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (08:01)
Yeah, it's complicated, so we have actually turned people away before who have come to us for that. Just saying, not that we think you should or shouldn't have a podcast, but we're not producing it.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:09)
Yeah, yeah, it's not the right fit. It's not value's a lie, yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (08:12)
Yeah.
Or it's just too much responsibility to put on my shoulders as to what my role is. I don't know what you're going to say at what point. And that's just setting all of us up for a world of complication that...
Taina Brown she/hers (08:16)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. I'm curious, and I don't know if you will be able to answer this question, but when I think about the podcasting space as being political, the first place my mind goes to is access. Who has access to the resources and the tools and the audience and the networks to run a successful podcast?
What has been your experience with that in producing, you know, a variety of different podcasts for different types of people, whether, you know, race, class, gender, et cetera? Like, how does that, what does that look like?
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (08:57)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting. I, that's the first place my mind went to. And when we first talked about this topic offline, right? Well, I guess technically we were still online. You get the point. ⁓ not recording is that, that the opportunity for, you know, the barrier to entry for podcasting is extremely low. Yes, you do have to have internet access, but at this point, more people around the world have access to the bare minimum equipment and internet access opportunity that they need the resources for even hosting podcasts.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:07)
Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (09:27)
etc. It's been made more accessible today than it's ever been. And it's an opportunity to reach a global audience with long form content that is voice to voice voice to ear right that ⁓ is unparalleled right like YouTube. It's it's revolutionary in that way. And I think especially podcasting again the difference there being that YouTube is a one sided conversation. It's very voyeuristic like I'm here talking at you or you get a glimpse behind the scenes at my life. But it's one way whereas
podcasting is a dialogue, it's a conversation. so it feels, know, neural pathways wise, what's going on in your brain is actually like a two sided conversation. And so the power of that is so incredible, because before that was way less accessible to people. Now, that being said, of course, yes, you're right, we can take that accessibility conversation further and look at the fact that the largest podcasts, if you look at like the top performing charting podcasts, the top earners, and this is where my brain next goes, right, is where's the money is
dominantly heteronormative cisgender white men. So I looked up statistics on this. there's a lot of research out there. So I looked up a ton of different sources to try to get as close as I could to like a real answer. And of course, it depends on the cross section that you're looking at. But for people making more than $75,000 a year, which is like pretty much you make nothing or you make more than that. Right. So it's like is your podcast fully monetized? 70 % of earners making at
Becky Mollenkamp (10:29)
Joe Rogan.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (10:53)
least
75k a year from a podcast are men and about 80 % of podcasters making 75k or more a year are white. and again, this is a cross section of NPR, Statista, Edison, Sounds Profitable, a bunch of different like reputable research institutions. And, and so that really shows you like, who has not just reach already has established platforms that's going to make transitioning to podcasting easier, but also who's getting
the monetary deals, who's getting those multi-million Spotify deals, right? And so like disproportionately, that's going to certain demographics of people. so although anybody quote unquote, and that's not exactly true because you do have to have access to internet and some equipment, et cetera, but almost anybody can start a podcast, but who can truly profit most from a podcast? The money's going.
specifically to these same demographics that we talk about in a lot of different circumstances, right? And then that takes me to this further step that I'm just going to open the can of worms of what do they do with that money once they get it? That's also like a whole other layer. It's not just who stands to get paid, but what do they do with that money and that platform once they have it? So I'll pause there.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:52)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:06)
Because
I obviously so I run the Feminist Podcasters Collective. Our podcast is a part of that and it's designed similarly with your business, although we don't we're not a production company. We're a collaborative of people who are trying to amplify the voices of marginalized folks in this space. And we're all independent podcasters, meaning we don't have like I heart media or Spotify or one of these major companies bankrolling us. Right. We're all doing this out of pocket.
And there's sort of there's like the group of people who are getting 20, 50, 100 downloads, right? That's the norm. And then there's the Joe Rogan's and the, you Amy Poehler's and the Dax Shepard's and whoever who are, you know, getting tons of downloads, whatever. And it's easy for small independent podcasts because you're like you said, almost anyone can start a podcast. You go to the library, they have podcast studios that you can get for free. There's very little.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:56)
Mm-hmm
Becky Mollenkamp (12:58)
real expense. And there's even ways to put out most of it for free. Like there's just very little you have to do. So this wonderful medium that's supposed to be all about democratizing media, right? Making it accessible to all is lovely, except that there's still gatekeepers, right? Who's deciding what content is actually seen? Because when there are, and I'm sure you know the stats, Sarah, but as many podcasts as there are, and there are a lot,
Although a lot of them are dormant, they're not actually live podcasts, people putting out episodes. But even with those that are putting out episodes, it's still, I mean, it's immeasurable, it feels like, the amount of content that's out there. So you can't just open up a file and find a million podcasts and figure it out. Someone does have to help you make sense of it all, right? So we understand why we have gatekeepers, people who are saying,
Taina Brown she/hers (13:38)
Okay. you
Becky Mollenkamp (13:50)
You can't look at a million files will help you sort of organize these files and find things that are good for you. And yet who's making those decisions and how does that affect what's being served up and what
Taina Brown she/hers (13:51)
⁓
Becky Mollenkamp (14:01)
we see and then what we're missing right and for those of us who are independent small voices it feels nearly impossible to get seen right. And so I'm just curious like what do you know about that part of the business of the gatekeeping piece because.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (14:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:18)
Right, anyone can do it, but I don't think the reason Joe Rogan's at the top is because Joe Rogan is necessarily the best, or even what most people would want, but he's darn easy to find.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (14:24)
Thank
I think part of that has to do with the money that's bankrolling the visibility of that podcast for sure at this point. But also he was a comedian before he was ever a podcaster, And this is an interesting thing because I do want to touch on celebrities, but the truth is Joe Rogan really was not a very huge celebrity before starting his podcast. He's been podcasting for so long that if you know him, it's predominantly because of his podcast success.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:54)
Mm-hmm
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (14:55)
got into
podcasting before the celebrity boom. So we lump him in with celebrities because he's the highest earning podcaster, right? But also he did get there before the celebrity podcast boom happened. I think that what's really interesting, and this is also another layer of like not only how ⁓ podcasting affects politics, which we do want to get to, but how politics and what's going on in public affairs affects podcasting. In 2020, we saw this huge rise of podcasting.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:20)
Mm.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (15:23)
lot of reasons why but a big part of it is that all of these performers, all these SAG actors were not working and in order to keep their benefits they needed to have jobs. Now that became a huge monetary opportunity to push celebrities like actors etc performers.
to start podcasts that are highly monetized. And so these huge media companies like iHeartRadio had a massive incentive to now encourage and incentivize the celebrities that they're working with to come and do podcasts so that there's ⁓ a huge amount of reach. There's a huge amount of advertising opportunity. Everybody's making money in that sense, right? Except indie podcasters. And there's such a blend of, yay, now everybody knows about podcasting. So there's an opportunity for me to reach more people.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:01)
Hmm
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (16:11)
But prior to 2020, it was almost purely indie, right? And so if you did open an Apple podcasts or
you know, any of those other podcasting apps that were really popular back then, many of which are not around even today. When you go into those podcasts, they were all, all indie creators. Now, again, some of those indie creators could now be considered celebrities, right? But that is where the that was the only thing that was really available in there because there weren't that many people listening. So 2020 really caused this like and with COVID and quarantine and the shutting down of all of these other industries really
Taina Brown she/hers (16:25)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (16:48)
caused this huge shift of pushing celebrities into podcasting that brought so much money to the field. so the industry itself of podcasting is very torn on this. It brought more money into podcasting. Advertisers see more value in the power of podcasting, the intimacy that you create with listeners. More than half of people who listen to podcasts have bought something they've heard from a host read podcast ad. That's incredible compared to less than 1 % of a click through rate on most other internet
Taina Brown she/hers (17:10)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (17:17)
based advertising. The opportunity for advertisers is huge so that brought a lot of money into the industry. However, where's the money going? It's predominantly going to the actors who don't even need it who got brought in.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:30)
And my favorite is
on their podcast when they love to talk about how, we're not even making anything. And this doesn't even, it's laughable how little money this is. And then you're an independent podcaster going like, your laughable little bit of money would probably be life-changing for me.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (17:43)
Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:44)
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (17:45)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:45)
So there's like read the room stuff there too, which is frustrating. Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (17:48)
Absolutely. mean, personally,
Taina Brown she/hers (17:48)
Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (17:50)
I have so much trouble listening to celebrity podcasts, even of celebrities I generally like because of exactly that. There's it really. And this is kind of I want to bring this back to politics, but this is really kind of what I think is so funny about the power of podcasting with the intimacy of a phone call. makes you really feel like you know the people who you're listening to, like you have, especially the average podcast is 25 to 45 minutes long. comes out once a week. So how many people in your life do you have a 25 to
minute phone call with every single week. That number is slim to none, right? So to be able to achieve that level of intimacy, the know, like, and trust is incredible. But what that shows us is you also can't hide who you actually are. So these celebrities who show up week to week, like they're really showing that. Was it like Mariah Carey, who's famous for saying she didn't know that she had to pay for electricity in an interview? So I feel like that level of disconnect of celebrities, that's the that's
Taina Brown she/hers (18:20)
Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (18:46)
I feel like when I listen to a celebrity podcast to me that's all I can hear is
Becky Mollenkamp (18:50)
Yeah, or the way that
people have went from loving Dax Shepard to realizing what, yeah. And just like, because they reveal themselves and it's, know, and that the privilege shows up in all of its ways, whether it's his, you know, the male privilege, the white privilege, the class privilege. Yeah, mean, those things show up and we, it puts a spotlight on it, his sour.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:55)
what a tool he is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
the class privilege yet.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (19:13)
There's another
Taina Brown she/hers (19:13)
Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (19:14)
layer to this too, and that's elections. So we saw in 2024 an unprecedented or a new precedent, I guess I should say, for even in the general election for having our major party presidential candidates both appearing on podcasts. And that was part of the strategy. And this is interesting because it has the same opportunity and also effect. So, you know, we saw both both.
Kamala Harris and Donald Trump were on multiple podcasts. Donald Trump did more. His podcast that he was on had generally larger reach and they were predominantly male skewed talking about things like public affairs. Kamala Harris went on also large podcasts, but not as big of reach, also predominantly women skewed and predominantly pop culture oriented, which is very interesting. ⁓
Taina Brown she/hers (19:56)
Mm
Hmm
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (20:03)
Now, what is fascinating by that is we get an opportunity to have access to candidates in a way that we don't have. And so just like radio and television revolutionized campaigning, right, now we have podcasts revolutionizing campaigning. Now, local candidates have an opportunity to have reach to their electorate that they never had before. And candidates at all levels of government, right, have opportunity to reach and they can't be everywhere at once.
Town halls are so limited in how much time you get to actually speak directly with your constituents Debates are going to be a completely different environment and atmosphere and TV appearances are very short and very structured So this is an opportunity to really feel like we get a phone call with our major party ⁓ candidates. That's ⁓ a whole new level of access to them and it's scary
Taina Brown she/hers (20:53)
It is.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:54)
And they can have their own
Taina Brown she/hers (20:54)
I saw.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:54)
podcast. Gavin Newsom is showing, you we know he's wanting to run for president and the way he's showing up and who he's platforming, but it shows us again, it's the microphone in ways we've never seen. as you mentioned earlier, there's no fact checking, which we saw with what Donald Trump did with Joe Rogan show, the O'Ban show showing up spouting lies. No one to fact check, no one to correct. Journal, these are not journalists. Some people are journalists. Yes, be clear.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:57)
Yeah.
Some people are journalists, yeah, but not all,
Becky Mollenkamp (21:21)
But no,
Taina Brown she/hers (21:21)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:21)
mean, Joe Rogan, we have a lot of former comedians, a lot of actors, lot of and there's nothing. Well, I am just to be clear, I have two journalism degrees. But yes, but I understand. But and I have no problem with non-journalists showing up and getting I think it's fantastic. The whole place gave everyone a voice. But what it does do is it leaves podcasting in this really murky, strange space where we're not subject to equal time laws, equal time rules from the FCC.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (21:25)
And us. We're not journalists. ⁓
Taina Brown she/hers (21:27)
And us, yeah, we're not journalists. Well, Becky was a journalist. Becky's
a journalist.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:50)
We're not governed by the FCC in that way. And as we're seeing play out, you know, or when this airs, it was already been playing out, but where this is showing up with Stephen Colbert. Now suddenly the government's trying to say, no, no, no, no, we do want these equal time laws to, to translate not beyond just newspapers and our news shows, but into cultural, you know, pop culture shows. What does that, what will that mean for podcasting? Will it, what does that mean about who's getting platformed? How?
you know, and what that means to podcasters and responsibility. So there's a lot there too, just about like who you choose to have on your show, what you choose to correct or not correct, either live or later in show notes. And then does anyone see it? So yeah, there's just a lot of stuff there that's really interesting.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (22:24)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:27)
Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (22:33)
in any
Taina Brown she/hers (22:33)
Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (22:34)
It's everything is a double. know I've used this phrase so many times, but it's double edged, right? Because all the things I love about podcasting, the opportunity for building this deep sense of connection. Part of the reason why so many people have purchased from host read ads is because the amount of trust that is built between a podcast host and the person listening is immense. It's a huge thought leadership opportunity. You're establishing yourself as an expert at what you do. I hosted a podcast for over six years that was for Girl Scout troop leaders trying to
help them feel prepared and supported equitably, right? Because some people sign up for that role and they have a ton of support and resources and some it's crickets and they're doing it alone in a vacuum. So I wanted to help try to close the gap. Podcasting is a beautiful space to do something like that, right? And so all these things that are so powerful, I just shared that you may know nothing about Girl Scouts, but just the fact that I hosted the podcast for six years, you're like, she's probably an expert about Girl Scouts, right? And so I think that, you
the opportunity to build trust is so cool for those of us who do have thought leadership to share and that power
with great power comes great responsibility, right? Because yeah, then the people who are listening are inherently more likely just to trust what they hear. I heard this on a podcast. It's now an equitable or a verified source, right? Which is why I tried to say I'm going to throw some statistics, but let me also tell you where these statistics came from. Because if you listen to another podcast, you're going to hear somebody else throw out random numbers. And if they don't give you a source, you don't have any way of knowing which one of us is correct.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:43)
It was great responsibility.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's such a good point. I know there has been at least one instance that I can think of where Becky and I were considering having a guest and I was just like, I know someone, like I had a previous client who was in the same kind of space and I was like, hey, do you know this person just to kind of like quickly vet? And they're like, yeah, they're actually really harmful. And so I was like, okay, maybe not the best.
the best choice to have on the podcast, To talk because I feel like when you bring people into that, it's like bringing people into your home. Like you have to be really careful about who you're having those conversations with because that is giving permission to and validating, you know, what those people represent, what their values are and whatnot. How do you have...
those kinds of conversations with your clients in terms of managing their expectations, what are the expectations that they need to have?
how to vet guests, like, how does that happen?
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (25:12)
Yeah. Okay, so this is about the responsibility of who you have on your show and how you know. Yeah. Okay, so one thing is talking about, you know, are you even going to have guests because you don't have to and you all have done, you know, guest episodes and not right. And so you make that decision and then, yeah, are you personally inviting people or are you going through an application process and we review the application process together of what do they want to screen for? What is important to them? Core values is so fundamental to
everything that we do at PodFox and so that's also how we consult on shows. And so, you know, what are the core values that you want to ensure? Ooh, I am apparently disconnected.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:50)
No,
you're still going. Just keep going. she can't hear us. Can you hear us?
Taina Brown she/hers (25:54)
You're back.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (25:58)
Let me know when you guys can hear me.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:58)
Can hear us? We
can. Can you hear us? Can you hear us?
Taina Brown she/hers (26:00)
We can hear you.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (26:02)
This is weird because it says I have internet.
not sure what to do.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:06)
I'm gonna text her.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:07)
Okay. now she seems frozen. there she is.
I wonder if she can see the chat.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (26:11)
⁓ you can hear and see me. That's weird. Okay. Well, that's good. Okay, I can't hear you, but I will just finish my answer and then maybe it'll rectify itself. I, so everything we do is really rooted with core values and...
So that's also how we consult, right? And so what are your core values and what is important to you and how are we making sure to filter for that? And then what do we do when something goes wrong? And so helping people really navigate that. I think that, you know, it's been interesting to...
help people through that, is something that comes up for pretty much everyone, which is at some point an interview doesn't go the way you hoped it would, or you've already aired an interview and then something happens where you find out that somebody is no longer actually a core values aligned fit that you thought they were, that you thought you filtered for, and related.
They also will run into this with sponsors. And so this is something that when you do move into like monetization of podcasting, we also talk about, I think it's really important to make sure there's really tight limitations on how long a sponsorship contract is for. So we will.
we will recommend, don't do it for more than three months or do it for one month and it's renewable, right? That way, if you realize that sponsor is not a good core values fit, same kind of thing as a guest, you're able to end that partnership right away.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:22)
Okay. ⁓
Becky Mollenkamp (27:36)
Can you hear us yet?
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (27:37)
You're still frozen for
me though, so I can't hear you.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:39)
no. Hold on.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:42)
I can text her questions.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:43)
Well, let see if she wants to exit out and come back in.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (27:45)
Yeah, I can try that. I don't want to lose what we recorded though. I saw your thing about it takes time to upload. Here, I'll close it and come back and hopefully we'll see what happens.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:54)
At it's not my end. It's been me in the past.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:56)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:58)
technical issues.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:00)
So speaking of unhinged podcast guests, RFK Jr. was on a podcast the other day. This was on the news where he said he used to do cocaine off toilet seats.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:10)
No, gross, that's just gross. Hi, can you hear me now?
Taina Brown she/hers (28:12)
Hang on.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (28:13)
What? Cocaine on toilets?
Becky Mollenkamp (28:14)
⁓
RFK Jr. ⁓ Well, I wanted to. I think a lot of what we've talked about here is the industry, and I think most of our listeners are probably like some probably are consumers. And if we have listeners who are also creators of podcasts, more than likely, unless Amy Poehler happens to listen to us, which I doubt it's all like little independent folks as well. And so I wonder, like as an independent, I get.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:16)
RFK Jr. on a podcast said that.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (28:20)
⁓ my gosh.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:29)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:40)
I think some of what we talked about is as a consumer of podcasts, it's helpful to think about. And then if you're a creator of podcasts, thinking about how you show up and how the choices that you're making, even at the small, like I have 40 downloads and I have a guest on or I do solo episodes, but like just thinking about how you are showing up inside of this political system.
And what choices you make and how those may be political. I'm just wondering if you think about that at that smaller independent producer of a power, independent creator of podcasts. Like, what are the things we should be thinking about? Obviously talking about guests, the kinds of guests we're having on and thinking about who they are and have we really checked out what they have to say. But there are other things that we should that we could be thinking about in the ways that we show up and how that's political.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (29:22)
Yeah, that's a good question. mean, I think that probably is true for how we show up in in always right like leading. I think a big thing for me is like leading with curiosity. This is something that shows up a lot on my own show is I'm I'm
always trying to come at things with wanting to be open and learn and not assuming that I already know the answer. And especially as a white woman, I think that's like a huge responsibility for me as somebody who has a platform, right? My podcast is ranked in the top 2 % of podcasts in the world. you know, there's a responsibility that comes with that. And so I think, you know, that's a big thing is like always leading with curiosity. And then, yeah, I think that
trying to know better, do better. then also, this is really where I'm so passionate about podcasting, right? And why I even have the company that I do, because there is an opportunity for us to share and amplify the immense knowledge and lived experience that...
doesn't typically have the opportunity to be broadcast to the world. And so we get to use a platform like podcasting, and especially when you can partner with an expert, either for just resources support like The Collective, or through like partnering with a production company like PodFox.
that we can really help amplify those voices and those lived experiences. I think that the opportunity there is exciting and amazing. And that's really what podcasting was built for, right? Is this indie grassroots opportunity. And so I think that's still true and that's still there. yeah, the opportunity is great. But what's coming up for you?
Becky Mollenkamp (31:02)
Well, that was exactly I'm glad you said it was really weird. like I was trying to make you say that. But yeah, because how often do we see these podcasts, especially from white women, but also white men? Yeah, white men, too. But where it's like all the guests look like the host. Right. And when we know that the podcasts that are most likely to get through the gatekeepers and get the most attention are going to be those from celebrities that have money that are probably going to be hosted by people with, you know, of privilege.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (31:07)
Thanks
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:29)
If you're not thinking about these things, then all you do is continue to perpetuate that problem by only bringing by platforming only more people who have that same experience. And so and even if we're at a smaller level of this, we still need to be thinking about it. Who am I bringing on? And is there somebody else that could talk about the same thing? Is there another voice? And I will hear from people, I don't know those people or they don't reach out to me. And I want to just remind people like, yeah, sometimes you actually have to do work like what they call it, doing the work.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:57)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:59)
Sometimes you
have to do work. You have to go out and seek out these voices. You might have to research. You might have to ask people who they know. You might have to just do that scary thing of reaching out to somebody you don't know and asking them to be on your show. We can't get complacent and sit around and just wait for the right people to show up. And then if they don't blame it on that, we are part of the system. And if we want to make change, we actually have to actively create change. And I think the same goes for listeners to not just trust what is being delivered to you on the
platter from Apple or wherever you listen to your podcast. But to do a little searching, to do a little digging, ask other people, what are the shows hosted by black women that I should be listening to, right? Going and actually doing some searching of some names that you might know that are, you black women that are doing amazing things and see what shows they've been on. It might open some doors for you to find some new content that you might not otherwise experience and then tell people about them.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (32:50)
Yeah,
this is where I think things like the Feminist Podcasters Collective is so valuable because these are the kinds of opportunities that you can like plug into to be in community with other indie creators and not just who the platform is like feeding you. And I think similarly, like this is where we really get to leverage SEO to amplify each other. And I think that, you know, podcasting has like just
ridiculously poor SEO, but we can leverage things like blogs and our websites and other, you know, kind of...
library based websites that like podchaser and things that talk about podcasts you can make lists there on podchaser for example that's specifically about podcasting right it's so if you don't know what it is it's just like a website where you can explore and find podcasts to listen to and learn more about the shows and the the hosting with listen notes right that's another place you can like find podcasts and so on a platform like podchaser even just building out lists of like independent creators because then that's going to improve the
You can also do this on blogs, things like that, or look for blogs where other people have already done this, where you're just googling,
top podcasters that are ex demographic, right? Or whatever, so that you can try to find, you know, more black women podcasting and more indigenous voices and more, right? And so really exploring voices that the algorithm's not feeding you in the podcast apps. And then it learns your listener behavior as well. So if you're really being...
aware of who you're listening to, of what podcasts you're consuming, those recommendations or shows like this or whatever that are at the bottom of your screen, those are going to get more diverse because it knows your listening behavior. So being really intentional about what you consume is going to help you be exposed to more ideas. And I think if you are a creator, that's also going to give you ideas for people to bring on. But also it's going to help you get out of that echo chamber so that your creation does not continue.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:34)
you
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (34:49)
you to just perpetuate the same things that are already being said everywhere else.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:52)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. In terms of listener stats and like engagement, like across your portfolio, like, do you see a disparity in terms of who is getting like the most downloads or the most listens or the most engagement, et cetera? And then how do you how do you have that conversation with clients?
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (35:12)
Yeah.
Yeah,
With the people that we specifically work with, think we have a pretty good idea when they come to us of what those numbers are going to look like at this point. I've worked in podcasting for 10 years. I started my business six and a half years ago. So I've worked with enough podcasters to know at this point. And honestly, with the way that we help indie creators, it's more about what level of platform you're already coming to us with. So like what's your email size, what's your social media reach? Like what is the level of community you're sharing that podcast with in order to
Taina Brown she/hers (35:37)
Hmm.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (35:44)
it off and that's going to determine more about downloads for the most part. Most of our podcasts are performing I would say in a range of like from
probably pretty consistently, like a few hundred to 10,000 downloads a month. That's like a very common, and that sounds like a big range, but really in the grand scheme of like podcasting, that's kind of where indie creators sit, right? Somewhere in there versus the like hundreds of millions of downloads that Joe Rogan's getting, And so I think...
that discrepancy is nominal. But I think that we can have a pretty good idea when people come to us of what their platform already is and if they're starting from zero, what it's going to take in order for us to help them build that platform to get to that same range. Now, that being said,
people do come expecting numbers like TikTok. Like I could have a TikTok go viral and get a hundred thousand views, right? That's not going to happen with your podcast. Like it's just not. And so that is kind of a hard conversation. But what, what I always try to remind people is that, you know, it's very low engagement to watch a 17 second TikTok or a minute long TikTok to listen to a 45 minute in depth podcast episode. That's connection. And so, you know, even if you want to think about like giving a keynote
Taina Brown she/hers (36:53)
Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (36:56)
address. If I was speaking to a room that had 50 people in it from a stage, then I would be feeling like I made it right? Like, hi, this is a really cool opportunity. And by the same token, usually those people didn't come to that keynote address or whatever, even if you're not necessarily the keynote, you're just speaking on a stage during the day. They didn't come for you. They came for an overall event. If they come to your podcast, they came specifically for you. If I just decided I'm going to give a talk, can I get 50 people to show up and like be
Taina Brown she/hers (37:23)
Good.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (37:25)
their
live. mean, yes, and to come every week is even more powerful. Yes. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:26)
Well, and even more to come every week. Like, it's like, they're just coming once they're coming. Yeah, I mean, that's think about that. They're coming. They want
Taina Brown she/hers (37:28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:33)
to see you every week. That's amazing.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (37:35)
Yeah, so really trying to change the way you're thinking about it of like, instead of just trying to get somebody to hit follow, which is what you're trying to do on like Instagram or TikTok, right? Instead of trying to just get followers, which is such a low level engagement, and then you're fighting an uphill battle to create a relationship with that person, you have a relationship with somebody by the time they're done the first episode, let alone if they come back week to week to week. Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:58)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:59)
You wanted to talk about money, I heard you say. On the other end of this is like, what do these people do with money? I'm curious what that what you were thinking about there.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (38:07)
Yeah, so I think one of the things, you know, I mentioned a podcaster I worked with in the past who held a campaign event, right, for a local candidate, and I think this is really common. So the people who are making the most money from podcasts are in rooms supporting candidates who are directly stripping away environmental protections, who are directly
causing travel bans and human rights violations for different demographics of people. They're directly ⁓ stripping back our education system. And what the education system in particular particularly grinds my gears because to have built a platform like podcasting, which is an education and information platform with the intention of disseminating information and ideas, which is the purpose of education, right? To then strip back with
Taina Brown she/hers (38:54)
Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (38:57)
no like fact verification or anything like that, truth measurement, to then go into the education system and to strip back people's education so that they're more likely to believe anything they hear on a podcast, right? And they're not equipped with the media literacy to fact check. So all of these things I think are really related and let alone...
the donations that are made to campaigns. So directly helping people get elected who are stripping away human rights and actively causing harm to our environment and to our communities. This is really scary, right? And then there's also the layer which I started to touch on of having candidates on. They've also built this massive platform that's worth a lot of money. So they now have this opportunity to bring on candidates and amplify their voices and ideas and falsehoods, right? And to give them a platform.
a bigger platform to cause more harm and all the people listening to then be persuaded psychologically because it's a neural pathway I'm having a dialogue with this person to then go regurgitate that in their daily lives. the domino effect of who we are putting money in the pockets of, who these top creators are, what they do with that money is a little terrifying and I think that one statistic I found from Edison from last year that's really
interesting. So 2025, 40 % of people who listen to podcasts ⁓ identify as Democrats. 23 %
identify as Republicans, which means there is a 17 % gap who don't identify as either. And that means that we have an opportunity for influence among podcast listeners that is tremendous and will determine the outcomes of future elections. so yeah, podcasting is political.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:47)
Well, it's so strange because then you look at the top of the charts and it doesn't reflect those numbers. It's really bizarre. There just hasn't been that kind of voice from money. Yeah. Well, and I think.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:51)
Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (40:55)
that tells you what the power is of that gap. Well, that 17 % gap that doesn't identify either way.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (41:03)
So if where the money is and where it goes is to what we would consider probably more conservative voices, that is influencing people who don't identify as conservative. They don't think what they're listening to as a political podcast, they think they're learning about business or fitness or whatever, but they are being influenced.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:20)
Well, and make no mistake, as consumers, we have some say in what's happening. Yes, there's these algorithmic gods that are back there pulling strings. The gatekeepers are there and they're influenced by money, but they're influenced by money. And if a show suddenly gets major fallout and is not getting listenership, it's not going to get that support that it's been getting. And you will see it start to go down the charts and someone else will come up.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:39)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:41)
And that's our power is to not sit by idly and say, yeah, I don't always agree with everything Joe Rogan says, but he's funny or, you know, he has good guests on sometimes or whoever the person is. We can't do that. Like our decisions have they they matter. These decisions are on what we choose to consume. And I think it's important to think about that because we are part of the system. And while we don't have that, the power that the people at the top do to control the puppets, we do have a power to say whether we're to watch those puppets.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:49)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:10)
And if we choose not to, it does make a difference because they're going to be like, we're not putting our money on this one then.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:13)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (42:16)
It's also pulling the same support that you're talking about pulling that support also from the major advertisers. So we saw a mass exodus from Spotify over their continued support of Joe Rogan, right? And let alone a lot of other things. Yes. Yes. And ICE ads, right? Yeah. That's a whole other conversation about advertising. ⁓ Yeah. think like pulling, like, if you know who the major supporters are, who the major advertisers are of the podcast that you believe are causing harm, also pulling your support from those advertisers.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:22)
Mm-hmm.
Bye.
And ice when they were running ice ads and yeah.
Okay.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (42:46)
that's that's going to send a message as well.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:49)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:49)
Yeah, yeah.
Well, to wrap up, think there's just one question left and it's like, well, one, thank you for this conversation. Like this has been very good. But like what for people listening and watching, like what do you want people to walk away thinking about in terms of the the the political nature, right, of podcasting?
Becky Mollenkamp (42:58)
Yes.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (42:58)
This was fun, thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:12)
like literal politics, also just like the power dynamics and the accessibility and hierarchies and, you know, things like that.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (43:20)
Yeah, thank you for asking and I think, you know...
The biggest theme that I'm taking away from this conversation is what you said, Becky, of your choices matter. And so I think as a consumer, as a creator, your choices matter. And I think even just as a consumer and not to like downplay consumers, but specifically to consumers only. think also thinking differently when you see everybody talking about how much they can't get over Amy Poehler's podcast or whatever, like thinking about it differently of like, what are we doing when we're
know, pushing more and more millions of dollars into celebrity podcasts and how is that affecting like the system, right? And not that I'm coming for Amy Poehler, I don't know her, but whatever. Yeah, I don't know her like that. I'm not trying to come for her, but I'm just saying, like, she is one of those people who would say, we make no money off this, right? And so like, like just changing the way that you think about that.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:03)
He seems lovely, honestly, but yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (44:15)
And I would also just, mean, I'd be remiss to add because I run a podcast production company for indie creators that ⁓ your voice matters, right? And so podcasting is a very low barrier to entry and an opportunity to use your voice and to amplify what you uniquely bring in a way that no other platform can create that level of both intimacy and amplification. And so this is an unparalleled opportunity with a lower barrier to entry than ever before for you to
to
your voice because your voice matters. And so, I would love to support anybody who has a podcast, wants to start a podcast in their journey and to connect that way.
You I'm trying not to spend as much time on social media. I know you all have like did this before me. You made this move back from social media before I did. I've reached to that point. I'm exhausted there, too. But I do sometimes still hang out on Instagram and LinkedIn. And those are probably the easiest places to come hang out. But I would love to support the person to you listening. I would love to support you on whatever your podcast journey looks like, including the podcast you love listening to the most. Come tell me and we can help share them to amplify
Taina Brown she/hers (45:00)
Mm.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (45:26)
their voice even more.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:27)
And we didn't even get into, I'm realizing now, and we don't have to, but video and the push to make podcasting basically into broadcasting and video broadcasting now and how that changes accessibility and creating barriers to entry and everything else. So, and again, it's only contributing to the celebrity push and the people who
Taina Brown she/hers (45:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:47)
have the money to make great videos.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (45:47)
Yeah, there's a lot ⁓
of things. Video, think also the ICE ads you touched on. Also, there's an accessibility like being an audio platform, know, the push to add transcripts. There's so many things that unfortunately we did not get to. yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:03)
Well, because there's, I guess the point being politics touches, again, there's politics as in the profession of politics. And what we're talking about, which is every decision that we make relates inside of these systems in which we exist. And it comes down to everything of like, do I use video or not use video? Do I think about transcripts or do I not? mean, just like there are so every little piece of this, every decision you make as a creator or a consumer has
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (46:06)
everything.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:10)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:29)
is existing inside of these systems and therefore becomes political decisions.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:31)
Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (46:32)
How am I getting those transcripts? Is
it AI? Is it generative AI? Or is it human? I mean, there's, yeah, every single decision is layered. It's all complicated. Yes. Uh-huh. That's messy.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:38)
Exactly.
Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having the discussion with us about it because
I mean, again, we can't talk about everything because it's literally everything. But it was great to just some of these things and to think about and I hope for people listening for them to think about just as whether you're a creator and or consumer of podcasts to know that this stuff is showing up, even if you're not a quote unquote political show, you're existing inside of these systems.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (46:48)
Thank
Taina Brown she/hers (47:04)
Yeah.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (47:05)
Absolutely, yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:06)
Yeah. Thank you. And your podcast is Big Brave Business.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (47:10)
Big Brave
Business. Yeah, you can find that anywhere you listen to podcasts. And yeah, we have conversations like this about business and that especially all the extra layers of what you were just talking about of all these decisions you make. And that's that's really what Big Brave Business is all about. And you'll hear Becky and Taina over there as well because regular recurring guests.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:27)
We'll link to that and PodFox in the show notes or wherever you're, whatever, whatever platform you're consuming because we do video as well, because you have to, right? We don't have to, we choose to. Anyway, thank you, Sarah, so much for being here.
Sarah Heeter (she/her) (47:29)
Thank you so much.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:40)
Thanks for listening to Messy Liberation. Will you please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen? Taking that moment to do that will really help us reach a wider audience. Thank you so much for your support and for listening today. Until next time.