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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: In the old days, office workers used to work in offices. Then COVID came along and changed everything. It looked like the old patterns were gone for good. And then a new era of flexibility. Inclusion and productivity was upon us through hybrid working, but recent return to office mandates indicate that we could be facing a different future.
[00:00:21] Dan: To help us navigate this complex topic, our guest on this episode of We Not Me is Matt Davis, associate professor at LE University who has extensive experience into the where, when, and how of work.
[00:00:39] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Be the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond
[00:00:46] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:00:47] Dan: Pia, I'm talking to you from, um, from Oxfordshire, the sort of Garden of England. I've made that up. I think that's actually Kent. But anyway, um, it's beautiful. I'm looking out on a lovely scene.
[00:00:59] Dan: It is lovely. So near the Cotswolds and um, I'm down here. the whole family's down here actually talk, because we were here for a hundred and 50th birthday party. Don't get excited. It's two people added up. so I know that would be something.
[00:01:15] Pia: and one isn't 50 and the other a hundred, are they, is that, is that the
[00:01:18] Dan: So it's, it's one close. 90 and 60. So, Juliet's, father and her sister making a total of 150. So we had a big family gathering and amazingly, beautifully pleasing. I'm sure particularly for, for Gerald, her, her dad. all three children and all grandchildren were in attendance, um, for this, for this
[00:01:40] Pia: Well, well
[00:01:41] Dan: Which is lovely. Yeah, exactly. Very well played. Even some from the states, some even from the darkest depth of Yorkshire. So, um, yeah, we were all together. But um,
[00:01:52] Pia: it over the pens.
[00:01:53] Dan: and it is fascinating 'cause you're seeing multiple generations here and there's a lot of. Talk obviously about work and what we are doing and teams and leadership, and it is fascinating to see the different attitudes to work, you know, from the top end of town where some of the, um, some of the political parties are saying, I'm gonna get everyone back in the office.
[00:02:15] Dan: And that, you know, the, the more senior people present would say, yeah, that's a great thing because people can't work from home and down to the middle probably where. This is great. We want to have hybrid and then actually as we're exploring this conversation. The, the, the younger generation is seeing issues with just working at home, becoming isolated and not getting the development they need, and sort of did it onboarding and I never saw anyone.
[00:02:40] Dan: So it's, it's a really fascinating, the, they're fascinating conversation that it sheds light on the complexity and the, uh, the multifaceted nature of, of the working world, which we sort of call hybrid, whatever it is. It's what, how, you know, how we work now.
[00:02:55] Pia: But it was a made up word. Because there happened to be a rather nasty illness that was doing the rounds around the world. And then we were all Sent home and now, and now we're sort of partially, partially at home and partially at work. And that's called hybrid.
[00:03:08] Dan: that. Exactly, exactly. And it's sort of almost, It's, it's, it's not one versus another. It's much more complicated and, so it's worth. Getting someone in to know, who know, who knows what they're talking about
[00:03:22] Pia: nose their onions on hybrid.
[00:03:24] Dan: their onions, so, it makes sense to bring someone onto the show who really knows what they're talking about. Um, and so we have Matt Davis, he's an associate professor, uh, at the University of Leeds, and he has done, spent his life really looking at where and how we work. So, um, he's got some amazing research to draw on from the, his years doing that.
[00:03:46] Dan: So really a wonderful conversation that just explores all aspects of this, uh, of, of how we work today. So let's go and hear from Matt now.
[00:03:58] Pia: Welcome to We, not Me.
[00:03:59] Matt: thank you very much for having me. Great to be here.
[00:04:01] Pia: um, we're gonna hear more about you and your research and Leeds University, but first we're going to put you into the pressure test of, um, answering a question under duress and to see what happens, uh, in that process, which, of course, we're on video so we can watch, but no one else can.
[00:04:21] Dan: what a great, great way to welcome our guest, isn't it? Um, welcome Matt, and your question from the pack of conversation starter cards is an orange question, medium difficulty. Um, and it is the best piece of feedback I ever received was
[00:04:38] Matt: so much feedback and I always thank you to everybody who's ever given me feedback is good or bad. I think it's been useful along the way. Um, I think probably actually the thing that's been most useful to me has been feedback that I had from a kinda more senior colleague, right?
[00:04:53] Matt: Early in my career, and this was when I was starting out. Uh, public speaking and, uh, teaching and so on, um, and often was really nervous around that and the trap that would go in, in terms of trying to preempt everything that could come up. And I think the, the time that I was spending in terms of trying to get over all of the facts and absorb everything so that whatever was thrown at me, I'd be be across it.
[00:05:12] Matt: Um,
[00:05:13] Matt: and I.
[00:05:13] Matt: think the, the most useful feedback I, I had, I think following good. Uh, presentation I did it publicly was, just to strip it back. And I think, and the advice to enjoy those kinda situations and not to worry about how people are viewing you and not to, to try and kind of preempt everything that might come up, um, and the feedback that actually you come across, like, you know what you're talking about.
[00:05:33] Matt: Um, and we didn't know. The 13 things that you wanted to say that you didn't get in and actually having less made it a more, um, kind of fluent conversation and the, the points lines more. And I think that kind of just check on the, the kinda way that, uh, a presentation had gone for me was, was really impactful because going forward it gotta got, help me get rid of a lot of the nerves, um, in terms of standing up and in terms of, just think about approaching.
[00:05:58] Matt: That kind of conversation. It may not come across today. Um, but more generally, uh, in terms of stripping it back, enjoying it, having a little bit more confidence in terms of actually kind of the way that you present, but also not trying to do too much, which I think is the thing that often I certainly fall into, and that kind of fear of kind of being seen is, uh, not having, um, told somebody what they wanted to hear.
[00:06:21] Matt: so trying to get too much in and then losing them along the way.
[00:06:24] Dan: it's interesting and our heads become so full, don't they? With those what ifs and scenarios that you actually can lose your way and the audience doesn't get the full value. I think that's very powerful feedback.
[00:06:37] Matt: I think psychologists as well. I think there's all this, always this thing as well that we, we are looking for some kind of reference points and, uh, validation, aren't we? And I think sometimes just being a little bit more comfortable about trusting our own, um, expertise and judgment is also really important.
[00:06:51] Dan: It, it takes me back a bit to when I first moved outta the corporate world and, and started working with p actually, um, started doing Session, you know, facilitating leadership Pro pros, and I thought that my job was to convince people in the room of what we were trying to sort of teach them and cover off.
[00:07:08] Dan: Whereas it took me a couple of years to sort of let go of my grasp on that and just if people came in the room, had something they didn't agree with what we're talking about, to be able to say, oh, that's. That's a really interesting viewpoint. Yeah, let's just let that sit there and I'm not gonna try to, um, Trump card you with some knowledge or some research.
[00:07:25] Dan: We're just gonna, and I've seen people doing that in the room, sort of. And, uh, but just to let that, allow that sort of tension to sit there and be interested by it. And, uh, yeah, it was, it's a big shift, isn't it? Because that and that, once I could do that, I cleared a lot of clutter outta my head. Um, of all these clever answers I had to be able to actually.
[00:07:43] Dan: Be much more focused on the person and their, their viewpoint, which is valid. um, so Matt, give us a little bio in a box. Tell, tell us how you got to this point today you mentioned being a psychologist as a little hint. Yeah. How did you get to this point?
[00:07:57] Matt: Yeah, sure. So, um, I guess I been interested in psychology, um, probably since I was a teenager. Didn't intend to, um, to follow this as a career. I intended to go into law originally. Um, and then got much more interested in the behavioral side, of things and thought actually would be interested in doing that. Um, for a degree and, and have gone a fairly traditional academic route. So I've got a background in, in traditional psychology and then specialized in, uh, organizational business psychology through masters and, and so on. Um, and I was really fortunate, so I, I moved to University Leeds for my PhD in, followed, uh, professor Chris Clark who'd moved from Sheffield up team to LEED and, uh, joined his research team and they were working.
[00:08:38] Matt: A lot with Rolls Royce Aerospace, um, with other large, um, public and private organizations. Um, I was able to, uh, take a PhD looking at, at the design of physical space. I've got real interest in architecture and the built environment, the natural environment as well, um, and how that can affects our psychology and how we behave and so on as well.
[00:08:59] Matt: So for my PhD. was looking at design of open plan offices and thinking about the management issues and the psychological issues of how people behave in these. predominantly large offices, but also some of the, the lessons from it. and along the way got interested in wider kinda sociotechnical systems thinking.
[00:09:15] Matt: So the space is one thing. Management practices, technologies that we're using, uh, broad organizational culture for me that fascinates. Fascinates me in terms of how is it, what, what is it really that drives decisions and emotions and behaviors at work. And it's, it's not just management practice or coworkers or the space we're in.
[00:09:35] Matt: It's all of these things together. So I've been really fortunate that. Over the past kind of 20 years really, I guess, now have been able to kinda do that as a day job in terms of, uh, researching with different, uh, organizations teach as well at, at Le University Business School. Um, so our management students and, uh, organizational psychology students, um, do some consultancy work, uh, with organizations as well around, uh, these areas got interested in sustainability and supply chains.
[00:10:02] Matt: Um, and where that kind of the behavior and the management meets more technical side of things and think about how that can drive really positive things in terms of sustainable behaviors or better work practices, uh, for employees. And then I guess, uh, COVID, uh, things changed rapidly, didn't they? Um, and, uh, all of the, um.
[00:10:22] Matt: I guess the, the enforced home working and then the angst that we had, I think around, well, what's the place of, of the office? What is, what does it mean to go to work now? that for me was, was such an interesting question to be raised and I was lucky that we, uh, we won some funding from the Economic and Social Research Council to do quite a large project.
[00:10:42] Matt: Or the range of public and private sector companies looking at how they were redesigning physical office spaces, looking, the technologies they were using, getting really deep dive in terms of, the, the impact on staff and managers. Um, and thinking a little bit more about, okay, well what, what's the place of the physical space in a hybrid world and what does hybrid really mean?
[00:11:00] Matt: and particularly kind of going back to the office more routinely. What does work look like going forwards? And, and that's probably where I am now in terms of, uh, being lucky enough to, to continue kind of researching and consulting with companies who are trying to work that question out. So what does work mean in the 21st century when there's so many options, so many different ways of organizing it?
[00:11:20] Pia: And I think that's a very good place to start then. So, Particularly as, um, and I dunno whether it's the same in the UK but in Australia there's a lot of the tech businesses that are, back to work in the office. Um, and hybrid is taking on a quite a different focus. and there's a hybrid has a mandatory amount of time that is to be spent in the office.
[00:11:41] Pia: So it doesn't have quite the flexibility that it did. So let's start. At the beginning. So how do you define hybrid and how do teams who are working define hybrid? And have we got that bit right yet?
[00:11:54] Matt: Yeah, Pia, that's such a good question. I think for me, that cuts to the heart of a lot of this. So I think what's really, really interesting about hybrid working is so the term didn't really exist before the pandemic suddenly, suddenly emerged. and for a lot of people, they, they created their own definition of what hybrid working was or is.
[00:12:12] Matt: and for an awful lot of workers they did that whilst they were in this. Weird situation of lockdowns or kind of mandatory homeworking or restricted access to the office and so on. And people were able to, to construct those ideas a lot on their own. So I think we've started, and we come at this from a very different place to, you know, if we're talking about flexible work or we're talking about other kind of.
[00:12:35] Matt: Forms of working. Often that's come from, um, businesses of, often there's an established model that people are following. We have a bit of kind of common, uh, agreement about the definition, and I think we, we started in a very different place here. And because of that, what you're seeing is, uh. Organizations are defining this quite differently, but even colleagues within teams have very different ideas because of what they became used to. And it's one of the reasons I think we see some of the frictions that we do, um, where companies have started to try to impose a little bit more structure or to impose their own definitions. Um, and it's rubbing up against the ideas of people who develop themselves. So for myself and, and colleagues.
[00:13:12] Matt: So we, we spent a good amount of time really trying to get into the skin of this. So talking with, um, business leaders, with, uh, managers across companies, lots of individual employees as well. So, interviews, surveys, other kinda work. And the thing that has really struck me is that there isn't one definition and hybrid is. At its heart, it's spending time in different work locations. So typically that might be the office and home.
[00:13:38] Matt: Beyond that, there's such a variety of ways that this is actually being used and, and being defined in different places. So, hybrid could mean, uh, somebody having the option to work from home, you know, twice a week, uh, sorry, twice a month or so. So they have that mix of location. For others, it might be they go into the office once a month.
[00:13:57] Matt: I think that's the kind of range we're seeing. And then I think the more useful way then is starting to, to pull this apart, um, is thinking about how much choice it gives people. And that I think when you, particularly when you talk to, to workers, is the thing that they value most from hybrid working. So this sense they have some more control over how they go about their work. And I typically, when you, when you talk to people about this, I think this cuts in two ways. So the amount of, of control that people feel they have over where they work, that's a traditional bit. The, the place work. Um, but also when they work, and I think it's really difficult to have any conversation, with a member of staff about hybrid working without them instantly talking both about where they work.
[00:14:39] Matt: But also when they work, and I think you have to acknowledge that. I think regardless of what a technical definition might say, it always comes back to this and, and that kind of sense of choice and decision making is hard.
[00:14:51] Pia: and I, I think it's not lost on me that, employees have taken or have tried to take back some of the autonomy for that choice. About where they work and when they work, because that was handed to them. They were told to go home it wasn't a gradual thing.
[00:15:07] Pia: it was a a big change that happened within a relatively short period of time and everyone had to get used to it. But I think that. For a long period of time, maybe we fell under the misbelief that we had more autonomy about where we work and when we work. But actually it was a phase to suit the times, and now we're being brought back into a bit more of the traditional way. I, I dunno whether you see, see any of those behaviors in that.
[00:15:40] Matt: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I think for, for me, the question to ask is, is why, so why do we need to impose more structure? And I, I don't have a view on this. I, I'm gonna say that, but I think it's a question that's worth asking. So I think often a lot of the pushback from, um, staff, particularly when you look at these.
[00:15:57] Matt: Return to office mandates, or we're going to, you know, when there's a policy change that says we're really gonna start to be much more directive about where and when, um, you're spending your time. For me, I think often that's the case for why it's needed, hasn't been articulated so often. It, it can appear that the only reason we're doing this is because we have unused office space, which most employees isn't a particularly convincing answer to why they should go back to having a, a more regular commute.
[00:16:23] Matt: I think for, for some roles, it, it, you know, it clearly it's really necessary because they, they're so interdependent or, you know, the communication platforms don't substitute for everything that's required in the job, so you can make some really good cases there. It might be down to, I think, training and upskilling and knowledge sharing and culture building, often I think as organizations, we've been really poor at making that case.
[00:16:45] Matt: And I think the, the announcements or the policy implementations have been viewed as. either management don't trust us from an employee perspective or they're just trying to fill the offices,
[00:16:55] Matt: or they're scared, I think. and I think there are, I think it's, it's EI think there's a, there's a comfort in thinking that actually you know, manage my teams will be so much easier if we go back to how it was. You get people back into the office full-time, it's still not gonna be how it was before the pandemic. So, you know, the, the, the, the, the kinda collaboration platforms, complexity is still there.
[00:17:14] Matt: And if I can say, so I think the other, just to come back a little bit in terms of, the flexibility. So the idea that people are losing flexibility, uh, for most, most, um, employees, I agree that's a case if you are starting to impose more, more rules around this, but. One, one thing that I think is absent from most of the conversations about hybrid working that always frustrates and, and worries me in equal measure is that we, we assume that hybrid working is a positive for everybody.
[00:17:40] Matt: That's often the, the part of the narrative. Um, and that it's given people more choice and control and for most. For most. It absolutely is. But we found there is a group of workers that we usually overlook who, you know, this might be actually much more disruptive, much less, uh, empowering for, so I said earlier on the hybrid working for me, often it's, it's this idea of how much choice you have over when and and where you work.
[00:18:05] Matt: And actually, depending on the way that we implement hybrid. This could be really restrictive for some staff, and particularly if we're thinking maybe the likes of call center workers or other kind of service workers and so on, where maybe they're working shift work or they're being allocated times that they're working. We can also see in, in those situations, they're also being told when they're accessing the office or when they have to work from home, now there's no choice in that. They're being allocated. Their work location as well as work times. And what we've seen is that, where that is something that can vary and that can be much more difficult to actually plan your life around childcare, social commitments.
[00:18:40] Matt: Um, if it's changing week to week, it's hard to, you know, get a good deal intensive, train passes or car parking, all those kind of things as well that come into this. So you might be finding, you're being told you are in, know, in the office two days a week, one week, not at all the week after the days might change.
[00:18:56] Matt: Um, that's really difficult to work about. And we, we call that group of workers fixed hybrid. So they are working in different locations but don't have autonomy over this. Um, and we forget about them because actually for them, a fully home working or a fully office based uh, role might be much more. Easy to, to work around might be actually a much more comfortable work, uh, arrangement.
[00:19:17] Dan: it's interesting that Matt, because I, I started out through COVID. In fact, I was just looking back when Mariea mayor at Yahoo called everyone back to work. That was 2013. And, uh, I was railing against that on LinkedIn and how, how sort of narrow minded it was. And and I've been a bit of a zealot around this, but actually you talk to people and they're these different.
[00:19:36] Dan: As ever. It's more sophisticated and there are these groups of people for whom certain things work and talking to young people as well. I, I, you know, I have some young nieces and nephews and I talk to them about it, and yeah, they really like the office because that's, that's where they meet. Now, and, and, and I can say, and, and they actually, a group of students said to me, it's all right for you.
[00:19:57] Dan: You've got your friend group, you've got, you know, you are, you are fine. the office is really good for us to actually go and meet someone. And, and if you go into the office and no one else is there, well that's pointless, isn't it? So it's sort of for that group indicates that there might be a sort of, a little firming up of the hybrid policy. So we are actually together and that we can actually not, you know, we can get to know each other, but we can collaborate in the same space.
[00:20:20] Matt: Absolutely. I think this is where we get to, to the number where, where conflict, I think occurs within teams and organizations. I think you, you, you run up very quickly. Um, I think as, as soon as people have a level of discretion and, and choice over. Where they work. You can see this in other kind of forms of flexible working that rub between me and we, I think in terms of how we prioritize decision making. And I think the, the need to have ways of, of making that more explicit in terms of what are our commitments to other members of the teams? What's the, the non-negotiables, what are the arrangements for particular tasks? And so on. Those very practical ways of working through, can, can, I think, prevent a lot of the.
[00:20:59] Matt: The issues that you often see around this. So often, I think particularly frontline line managers, um, are left to, to deal with the, the messiness of implementing hybrid policies on their own.
[00:21:08] Matt: Um, and it can be quite a difficult place. I think this, this is often really quite emotive. People have a. Crafted their routines and their patterns in a way that works around their life and they, it really matters to them.
[00:21:19] Matt: So to have, to be the manager who's trying to unpick that or to, to help somebody see why their choice of only coming in once a fortnight is impacting those newer workers as other colleagues who rely on them for information or for support. That can be quite a difficult task and I think particularly if the HR systems or the wider kind of work practice aren't supporting them in, in that as well.
[00:21:39] Matt: So I think in terms of practical things, It's really cliche, I guess, but things like team charters and actually some of the, the team development, um, activities that help to get the communication going, get the kind of openness and the trust, I think are absolutely crucial when we're talking about, um, hybrid working, getting people on the same page around this because, um, I think your example around the, the younger workers, um, points out. I think otherwise you risk having winners and losers and people who feel that they're losing gout from the choices that other people are making.
[00:22:10] Pia: And, and I guess to my earlier point, that's because those choices were not even on the table, you know? F five, six years ago, and then, and then they got placed on the table and then, and then now we all want to have our own choice. So some of it is the difficulty of, of just trying to find some commonality and some give and take within, within a team or within an organization.
[00:22:31] Pia: the, the other bit I was. I wanted to add was that hybrid comes on the top of other changes, so restructures, um, and, and there's quite a lot now about mandating the days you need to be in the office. That's another one that seems to be causing quite a rub because Mondays and Fridays don't seem to be necessarily the optimal choice for most people.
[00:22:52] Pia: but there's a requirement now that for some organizations, some it's five and some it's three. so it's a little bit like airport security. There's no commonality, you know, and we go through a process, but it's always diff different. Some are belts off, some are shoes off, some are, leave your laptops in. It. It, it is a really similar, and that's what I think causes, there's not a, there's the, the, the sort of world order around hybrid hasn't quite established itself yet.
[00:23:21] Matt: It hasn't, but I'm quite relaxed about that, Pia, 'cause I think our research, and you can see this in other industry data and academic research. shows that actually you, when you look at employee preferences around how they would like to work, it's really makes those well in terms of what is the ideal work pattern, what's the ideal amount of time that I wanna spend in the office or at home?
[00:23:39] Matt: And so for us, typically we would find it's about 50%. Of office workers who'd like a, a, a kind of a fairly balanced hybrid model. So two or three days per week in, in the office, rest at home. But then it's, it's pretty much split in terms of 25, 20 5% in terms of, or predominantly kind of, um, traditional five day a week office or fully, uh, home-based working.
[00:24:01] Matt: So I, I don't think it's an issue if we end up with a. A diversity of, of work patterns that are emerging in different organizations. And if there are different ways of working that suit the culture in a particular organization, their management style, then people will gradually vote with their feet and they'll gravitate towards the organization.
[00:24:19] Matt: So provide what they
[00:24:20] Dan: Yeah, it's an employee value proposition part, isn't it? This is how we do things here. Um, and people will choose it, even, let's say it's a hundred percent in the office or a hundred percent in hybrid. People will choose the one that they prefer.
[00:24:31] Dan: Um, Matt, I've been sort of, I, I, thinking back to what P was saying, you know, we had this moment, we think, wow, the balance of power is shifting a little bit towards the employee. Uh, the employees are gonna have a bit more choice. And which with all those benefits, and maybe we can talk some more about this, how this opens up the workforce to more people, particularly women, and minorities, disabled people, all kinds of things. It brings in, it's just got so many glorious benefits, but this sort of, there has been a swing back and these return to office mandates have been infused with a total, with a sort of, as you said, come back. We've got an office that we've paid for or really a lack of trust. If I can see you. I know you are working and this sort of theory X employee thing just seems to be, seems to suffuse these announcements. Um, I might be misreading it because I'm definitely biased, but it, it's, it, I've been really surprised and let's say disappointed by that.
[00:25:25] Matt: Yeah, I agree with you. I think you're spot on there, and I think it, it always makes me laugh, I think, um, when you can see that kind of, um, that assumption that's underlying this, uh, if somebody's in the office, they're clearly being productive.
[00:25:37] Matt: We, uh, exactly. And we all know that, don't we? so, you know, no, I agree. And I think, um, you know, hybrid and I, I'd say more generally, more flexible work arrangements that might be, in terms of thinking about. yeah, condensed hours or, or all the other kind of flexibilities that, that, have, have come through in a more mainstream now are really positive for inclusion. and I know that, I guess as well, so hybrid work in terms of the access to talent pool, that, that kind of opens up geographically as well as thinking about demographic groups. so what, I think it's really disappointing if we snap back because of assumptions people are making or 'cause there's a, a fear, that people aren't being productive and so on. I think, you know, you can have really good kind of fully remote online, management practices. You can have terrible ones in the same way with hybrid policies and, and office policies as well. I think what we need is good management practice. So hybrid working can work really effectively. But it takes a different management style and it takes a lot of effort. It's different to traditional office space and it's different, different to fully online.
[00:26:35] Matt: When you look at, the organizations who have global distributed teams and they're fully online, they have a very different way of managing, managing, uh, kinda task performance, project management, team building, relationship building. That's very different to office based. And I think for me that often there's a bit that's missing from the conversation around hybrid, which is, well, how do we do our management practice differently in a way that make this makes this work?
[00:27:00] Matt: So again, my research has shown the, the amount of coordination, that's required in hybrid work and to, to manage hybrid teams and others is more than, um, if you just fully office based. Okay. And we know that intuitively it's the case, isn't it? In, in terms of actually the, the style and so on needs to be different as well, so.
[00:27:16] Matt: I
[00:27:16] Matt: think it's not a surprise that people have found that hybrid working doesn't really work for them if they're trying to manage in the same way as they did 10 years ago when people are in five days a week. You know, that's clearly the case.
[00:27:28] Matt: When we went into lockdown, I dunno if you remember, if you cashed your mind back, we had all of these kind of pushes towards having more regular check-ins for really kind of changing how we're managing and kind of, um, interacting with, with staff. And I think a lot of that dropped off when we moved back to the office, um, in hybrid and people just assumed, well, no, we, we won't need to do that Stephanie anymore because we're back in the office some of the time and sometimes I see them.
[00:27:51] Matt: And so I think we, we've ended up in this kind of suboptimal way of managing hybrid, which is still built mainly on how we manage when we're all in at the same time in the office. And that's where a lot of the issues can come from. And it just a last thing on that. So we, we ask the question. Uh, in a survey of, uh, of office workers, uh, quite a large survey around, well, you know, how how many of you had, uh, have been trained in hybrid working and it was a few percent.
[00:28:16] Matt: It's, it's kind of follow ups. It's still woefully low, so we don't train people in actually how to. To work effectively in this. We might train them in some of the in-room meeting equipment or how to use teams or what have you, but actually think about how do I coordinate, how do I make sure that I'm interacting with my colleagues?
[00:28:33] Matt: How we, um, doing the really practical stuff of working as a team in this, in this different environment. I think we're falling short on, on that.
[00:28:41] Dan: It, it's another of peers sort of movements that have also happened is we know that leadership development, budgets have cut, been cut. I saw a figure of 20%. I do know that only one in five new managers get any training at all. So, in any leadership whatsoever, let alone these. And it's a really great point I think, Matt, for, and one to really take outta this conversation that you've made, which is, this is, this does require a higher level of leadership.
[00:29:07] Dan: It requires better leadership, more time, more effort, more skills, at a time. And actually those leadership skills are dropping. And we often, you know, pier and I will often reflect, and you can see it from verses 10, 15, 20 years ago. The attention to leadership and the capability of leadership is patently less when it should be much higher.
[00:29:27] Dan: Those curves are going in opposite directions, unfortunately, I think.
[00:29:30] Matt: Absolutely. And, um, I think it's, it's leadership development. Um, I'd also say I think at a, maybe a lower level kinda line management, uh, capability, but there is, there is also I think a, a big role for upskilling general work as intensive practical skills as well to, to do this effectively. Um, and I, I'd avoid, I think kind of putting all of the onus on.
[00:29:51] Matt: On leadership or managers to get this right, because I think a lot of this has to come from, I think, fundamentally a, a, a self-awareness with employees and a, uh, a willingness, I think, to be more proactive in terms of how they manage themselves in, in hybrid. There there's more requirement to, to do that on the individual because you are on your own for greater periods of time, and if you're making more decisions, you need to be aware of the consequences of those as well.
[00:30:15] Pia: I think too, there's um, the teams that I've worked with, they've found in a really connecting experience when they determine what they're going to do in the time that they're together. So that's another part because if you end up coming into the office and then you have a similar experience as you did at home, you're on Teams all day or Zoom. I think what it rightfully does is go, is that really a good use of time? Like if, like surely you'd want human interaction so that you can be innovative or giving coaching or feedback or, brainstorming. There's things that actually are a bit more difficult to do when you're not in the same room together.
[00:30:53] Pia: That takes time, that takes effort and, and conscious intent.
[00:30:57] Matt: Absolutely. Um, I completely agree and I, three things on that, if I can do so. First, um, that point around the experience. So we've seen that so people get negative feedback loops. So you go in, you've had a poor experience that directly informs the decisions that people make the same, uh, the next day. So I think for, for organizations, if you want to get.
[00:31:15] Matt: The energy up and for people to actively choose to come into the office rather than being mandated, then it takes curation and it takes effort and investment in terms of creating, a positive experience. You do that. It it's forming the habit, isn't it? You can do it enough. People get that kind of, uh, positive, expectation about going in. But it, again, it takes effort to do it. It, it doesn't happen on its own.
[00:31:36] Matt: Um, second thing, so, um, we. We did a a social network study look and get well, what happens? Let's look at the choices people are making over when they're choosing to go into the office, where they choose to sit. What does that mean in terms of who they interact with and who they share knowledge and advice and so on with as well?
[00:31:53] Matt: I. It's just as you said, so it's really interesting. So, um, as you might expect, the people who go in less frequently are less connected with their peers. They're less central within professional networks, within their organization and their office. But you also see the cliques and the clusters, so the people are choosing to go in on the same day or gravitate towards the same bit of the office.
[00:32:11] Matt: So I think there's a lot to be said here for maybe not mandates, but how are we maybe a little bit more proactive and subtle. In terms of encouraging the groups we know that need to interact to come in, in similar days or to, to encourage 'em to be in similar areas of the office frequently enough that they start to build the relationships.
[00:32:29] Matt: We can use space really smartly, really easily, um, to help prompt those kind of relationship, to develop. 'cause just time spent in close proximity to others is really powerful. And for me, that's where you start to need, I think, to have a little bit more, uh, of a maybe a, a guiding hand coming in to help make sure that you're not getting little cliques and silos or the people who already know each other coming in on the same day.
[00:32:52] Matt: or think about different demographic groups and so on. Again, you, in some of the data, you can see the, you get people who are on the periphery of a, a professional network. Um, and I think, Due to your care and thinking about diversity and so on. I think we need to just be a little bit mindful and making sure that we're not allowing people to either be excluded or to form cleats that make it hard for others to, um, to, uh, to, uh, break into those as, as well.
[00:33:16] Matt: and then the, the final one, which is the, uh, the training and development bit, the other bit, the extension to that. And I think, uh, seeing this increasingly more both in the data that we collected, but talking to colleagues, particularly in law and professional services, and elsewhere, is that we, we spend a lot of time thinking about new starters, younger workers.
[00:33:34] Matt: We've done a lot of work looking at, at graduates and interns. And certainly I think they have a, a desire to be in the office to learn. Again, you still see a, a, a mix in terms of how much they want to spend time in the office, but I think you can see the value they take from, from being in there. The group we often miss, I think, are probably the mid-career middle aged workers.
[00:33:54] Matt: So often this group have enough job knowledge, professional knowledge that they can very happily perform. Very well at home for long periods of times are pretty independent. Um, by and large they might be managing small teams or, or fairly independent. and often they've got a lot of the family commitments.
[00:34:10] Matt: It means they really don't wanna be coming in as often. Um, that's 10 to be a driver. And they can get by without it, but they're often, the people are most important to the learning of the, the younger employees. And you see it when you start to talk, uh, with younger employees about the experience they have and often the frustration they're in an office just with other grads or other, can know early career.
[00:34:30] Matt: And that limits what they're, they're learning. but also for, for the mid-career, this is what we've been hearing from CNA managers, partners, and others. There's real concern over succession planning and future talent pipeline. So they're often the, the, the thing that I've had shared back with me as well, this group of work, is that they're great at what they do at the moment.
[00:34:48] Matt: Mid-career, they know what they're doing, but they're not getting exposure to the really complex cases or to some of the management challenges they would if they were in the office. And some of the people development as well that you get when you are the one who's stuck dealing with a particular fallout of a, a, a situation, and they're concerned they're gonna plateau.
[00:35:05] Matt: So what does that mean then in terms of the, to succession planning? How do they start to, to get that back in? It's a difficult one. 'cause on the performance side it's hard to have the discussion with those individuals 'cause they are performing well. So what we're asking them to do is to, to inconvenience themselves to come in more often.
[00:35:20] Matt: not for that short term value. So it's a longer term career development and it's the impact on others. And I think that's a, a difficult one, but I think it's a potentially a bit of a sleeper effect. Something that's gonna hit us in 10 years time if we're not better at making sure that we're not ignoring that kind of mid, mid to higher tier.
[00:35:37] Dan: Yeah, and I've heard, uh, we haven't got time to open this particular Pandora's box now, but I've heard the same about ai. If AI does all the basic tasks, which juniors used to sort of cut their teeth on and get exposed to the bigger picture, then they pop out and they can run the bigger picture.
[00:35:53] Dan: If AI's doing all that, where, where is our talent pipeline of people who actually know what's going on, um, to do the more strategic stuff.
[00:36:00] Matt: Well, likewise, if, if AI is doing all the, um, the low intensity, easier tasks and, and so on, you risk more burnout as well. If people are only picking up the more complex, difficult, emotionally charged, um, or they get a really negative view of the job. 'cause see the stuff that gives 'em the downtime or the nice interaction with a
[00:36:15] Matt: client, um, they're
[00:36:17] Dan: they're just picking up the, picking up the help desk angry customers. Yeah. It's
[00:36:23] Matt: it's, it is a different conversation, Dan, but the good thing on that there, there's choices we can make about the design of the, of the technology and the work design that it doesn't necessarily need to be like that. But again, it's down to the decisions we make as designers or managers about how we implement.
[00:36:37] Matt: Um, and that's another fascinating topic.
[00:36:39] Dan: well, Matt, we might have you back to cover that if you'll, uh, if you'll be you, if you'll be, accept our invitation. Um, so Matt, um, so look, this is such clearly we've, you've opened it up to see all this, the multifaceted challenge that we have here and the opportunity as well.
[00:36:57] Dan: You mentioned one person along the way, which is this manager who is. Trying to navigate and trying to implement corporate hybrid policies that they seem to be sort of probably the, the meat and the sandwich as the Aussies say. Um, if, if you think about that person, how would you advise that? Is there a simple, is some baby steps they can take?
[00:37:16] Dan: Is there a, a mindset that you'd encourage them to sort of an approach that, that would help them to sort of see through this, this fog?
[00:37:23] Matt: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I think the, the, for me, the, uh, the guiding principle ought to be openness. I think that's a starting point for any of this. You know, if you, if you don't try and get some of the, the concerns and practical issues out into the open, that's where you start, I think to see the issues bubble up and the conflict you'll end up managing further down the line.
[00:37:43] Matt: So I think there's things around, I think getting the team to have a, an open conversation around how they each see hybrid. So actually at a really base level, if we're talking about hybrid working. How does that look to you? What does it mean? Uh, what are the, what are the things that you, that are really positive for you about this?
[00:37:58] Matt: What are the negatives at the moment? Start to get that out so people understand the different experiences, uh, and maybe challenges that people have within the, the team. That can go a long way. Just that simple conversation. Need a bit of bravery, I think, to start that off. I think as a manager, so I think actually kinda sharing some of the, the difficulties that maybe you are experiencing is key there.
[00:38:18] Matt: And then think about how do we start to build up. That in terms of making sure that people have common expectations and and understanding so often I think. Helping the group to agree on maybe tasks that absolutely should happen fully in person, those which actually work much better fully online. And actually a lot of meetings may be, are better to be fully online than trying to have a hybrid.
[00:38:39] Matt: if the technology's not quite right or people feel excluded, um, so you know that. And then, okay, what are the things where there is some real choice? So it doesn't really matter which way you go and nobody's gonna be put out, um, if you join online rather than in in person. That thing around. Okay, do we have mandated days?
[00:38:55] Matt: Well, maybe you wanna start off by thinking what's really important for us come together for, that might be development, uh, review meetings. Team stuff, social activity, start from the purpose, I think with all of this. So what do we really wanna make sure we're spending time together for? And then work backwards from it.
[00:39:12] Matt: And it might be that actually, you know, it makes real sense to have two days, a weeks, that's the best way of being able to, um, to kind of protect time to do the stuff we say is really important,
[00:39:22] Matt: but start from the purpose. You're more likely to get people to come along with you, um, and build it up so it becomes more consensual.
[00:39:28] Matt: And I think if you're doing it in that step by step way. Some of the, the concerns that people have around the, the what ifs or what does that mean for me will come outta those conversations. Um, but it makes it, I think a, a more, uh, achievable way of doing it rather than trying to impose something or design it and approach yourself.
[00:39:45] Matt: And then finally, I think alongside that, if think about linking it to you Yeah. Your performance review or your, your staff development, ask the questions and probe a little bit, I think, around the skills that people might need to do this well. So I think if you're having the questions right. Okay. What are some of the, you know, have a question there.
[00:39:59] Matt: What's the challenge? or are there any challenges you've experienced? You know, um, over the past six months in terms of working, um, either in the office or at home and start to unpick that as well, because there might be some things around time management. It might be, you know, using the technology, maybe they're struggling with some of the, the share docs, all those kinda things.
[00:40:15] Matt: But let's be a little bit more curious in asking that question. And I think, again, it's safer then you're not, it's not a, a performance issue, it's a development issue and it's, I think if you unpick that at the individual level, the team will, will benefit.
[00:40:27] Dan: there's a lot of climate and competence stuff to hand along the way, isn't there? Um, Matt, thank you. Um, can you leave us with a media recommendation? What's, uh, what would you point
[00:40:38] Matt: Yeah, I am gonna leave you, we've been talking a lot about future of work and technology and so on, so I'm gonna go old school and recommend a book. Uh, you can pick up a paper copy. Uh, you probably find it in an airport as well if you're traveling a lot.
[00:40:50] Matt: Um, so for me, um, I'm gonna recommend this 'cause the, the author makes me laugh. Um, and I think it's one of the. One of the few series of books that genuinely, uh, to find really entertaining, brings a smile and isn't too serious. And I think in the world that we're in,
[00:41:03] Matt: that's always a good thing. Yeah. So, uh, it is by, uh, Giannis Johansen, um, so the Prophet and the Idiot. Um, so Bookshops and Amazon.
[00:41:13] Matt: there's lots of other books if you like him. And it's just lighthearted, very clever in terms of some of the historical and current affairs and so on. but just funny, um, along the way. So this is end of the World is coming and lots of, happening, chance and mistakes and comedic stuff, and it's funny, entertaining, clever along the way as well, but it will make you laugh.
[00:41:36] Dan: Sounds good. We need, as you say, we need that.
[00:41:40] Pia: want it. Yeah, we do.
[00:41:41] Dan: We will. We'll get that sharpish, um, as soon as I get to my local bookshop. Um, fantastic. Matt, thank you so much for being on We Not Me today. It's been so insightful. Thank you.
[00:41:52] Pia: great. Great conversation
[00:41:54] Dan: it's excellent. And we may have you back if you, uh, just to cover that topic of, uh, work design in the age of AI sounds. That will open that Pandora's box sometime maybe, but, uh, but for now, thank you so much, Matt. It's been great having you on the show.
[00:42:07] Matt: Appreciate it. Thank you very much.
[00:42:10] Dan: A friend of mine who ran a, a big accounting firm, really helped me see this whole revolution, um, in a, in a very whole way. And it's, and it's actually how we often see leadership here, which is to look at these three dimensions of self. Team and organization I think these decisions need to be made in those contexts.
[00:42:32] Dan: Yes. Maybe I say, well, I want to work at home five days a week. Um, but actually, is that right for your team? You know, do your team want to get together sometimes and collaborate or, you know, is that right for the organization? Is that what your organization needs for you to, maybe it needs you to go and see a client or, uh, or it needs, something else from you to go into an office or whatever at some point in order to achieve the goals.
[00:42:54] Dan: So, so question, sort of seeing all of these things in balance, because if you overly. If it overly serves one of those, um, you, you're probably out of balance and I think that's why we might be finding it. It's difficult to find a simple answer to this.
[00:43:09] Pia: And I think that, um. Certainly an observation I'm, I'm seeing is that the goodwill that individuals have with their organization is wearing a little thin. So I think, you know, some organizations, there's no discussion of this. It's mandated, so it's gone from, you know, pendulum swinging to having, um, much more autonomy to, to having very little.
[00:43:34] Pia: having how they're working, when they're working, where they're working much more clearly stipulated, um, with the consequence that, you know, you choose that or you don't, or you don't choose to work here. So I think there's a, that's, that's probably, it makes people feel a little bit like, well, where do I stand and where it, like, how do I feel about that?
[00:43:56] Pia: And, and what, and. What I, I, I, I saw pre COVID people giving §so much, so much for organizations. Big, global multinationals giving everything, and then something has slightly snapped in that social contract post COVID. The ramifications of how that, where that happened wasn't wrong, but it was just a big sh big shift in the way that working happen. and then economic headwinds and now ai and lots of, there's changes happening on top of a lot of, um, changes inside restructures transformations. So I, it there's that goodwill. It just, it is, we, we lose it. We, of course, it's a two-way thing. It ha it's not my job. It it, it's me, the team and the organization.
[00:44:48] Dan: But I mean, you know, let's face facts here. um, ignoring Trump's attempts to do, to do weird stuff, but, um, you know, corporate profits are right up budgets inside companies are down. You know, managers have less to work with, wage growth is zero.
[00:45:06] Dan: so in that time, things have got economically worse. For people. And so it's not surprising that our trust of organizations is down and when they say You've gotta come back to the office 'cause we don't trust you, it doesn't do anything to, to change that. And as you say, it is a sledgehammer to crack a nut when you've got these return to office, uh, mandates because, and you can lose so much, I think from the point of view of society.
[00:45:29] Dan: Thi this is a huge opportunity to bring more people into the workplace. You know, they are saying that these RTOs will just make the workplace white and male again, because, it's g it's harder for, um, women and minorities to, to actually participate in the workplace when there isn't that flexibility.
[00:45:46] Dan: So there's a danger. It could be thrown out the window and also it's a classic example of a simple. Solution to a complex problem. And it's, and it, it oversimplifies things and therefore I think you lose, you lose a lot by doing that.
[00:46:02] Pia: And people have also, seen real benefits to, to working, which makes their lives easier. Um, and if you have both parents that need to work in order to, Pay an increasing cost of living Bill.
[00:46:18] Dan: Like 60% of people do in the UK
[00:46:20] Pia: that creates challenges and it just all puts a slight downward pressure on people who are working.
[00:46:26] Dan: Yes, absolutely.
[00:46:28] Dan: Absolutely. I
[00:46:29] Pia: I think a, an absolute, element of gold to, from. What Matt was talking about is where possible, how can people work this out between themselves as well? So how do you make the time you spend useful? How do you try and find things that you want to be doing together so that you put a little bit of that autonomy back into people's hands?
[00:46:49] Dan: Yeah, no, agreed. Agreed. It's a much more subtle and more, more mature way of doing it. I mean, it's also worth mentioning that loads of the teams we work with are actually global anyway. People, there is no office to go into to see your team. um, so I I, in reality, people are searching and find for, and finding talent all over the place.
[00:47:07] Dan: And that is not to be lost either. If you sort of say, I want an office. And I want people to come into it as Maria Mayor did in 2013, where you are, you are drawing a radius around that office building and defining that as your talent pool. And, and there's, there's, you're, you're losing there as well.
[00:47:24] Dan: Massively. So. but I think your point is exactly right. I think that's where, uh, we can land is that where possible have people and teams in particular work this out for themselves and look at those three dimensions, okay, what is, what do we want? Yes, what do we need as a team, but how do we need to serve the organization and our clients?
[00:47:43] Dan: And then. With all of those variables, see how we can land on something that is the optimum, even if it's not sort of super simple or, you know, perfect, how can we get the best outcome? Yeah, it's um, it's a great one and Matt really helped to shed some like, wow. So much research there that's, um, that's gonna guide people, which is fantastic.
[00:48:03] Dan: But that is it for this episode. We Not Me is supported by Squadify. Squadify helps any team to build engagement and drive performance. You can find show notes where you are listening and also@squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:48:24] Pia: Alice, goodbye from me.