Before the Boiling Point | Dr. Jeramy Clark & Jerusha Clark

What if your pastor is one conversation away from burnout—and no one knows it?

In ministry, the warning signs don’t always look like collapse. Sometimes, they look like silence, fatigue, or a slow drift from intimacy with God.

In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Jeramy and Jerusha Clark of Standing Stone Ministry to talk about the emotional and spiritual toll leadership can take—and what it looks like to care for pastors before crisis hits.

With decades of experience in leader care, the Clarks share powerful insights on:

✔️ The early signs of ministry implosion
 ✔️ How leadership stress impacts marriages and families
 ✔️ Why many pastors don’t know how to care for themselves
 ✔️ The role of boards in fostering a culture of care
 ✔️ How trusted friendships—not resources—make the difference

Whether you're a pastor, spouse, board member, or just someone who loves your church—this is a conversation every church needs to hear.

About Jeramy & Jerusha Clark:

 

Dr. Jeramy Clark received his Masters of Divinity and Doctorate of Ministry from Talbot Theological Seminary.  After pastoring for nearly thirty years, Jeramy became the President of Standing Stone Ministry, an organization that offers soul care for pastors and other ministry leaders. Jeramy savors coffee of all varieties, plays the drums, and enjoys golf.

 

Jerusha Clark is the author, co-author, or collaborative writer of twenty books.  She co-authored five books with Jeramy, including three bestsellers, prior to launching her own writing and speaking ministry, focused on helping others glorify and enjoy God, one thought at a time.  On quiet days, you can find Jerusha at the beach, her absolute favorite place.  

 

Jeramy and Jerusha have two adult daughters and love ministering together as shepherds to pastors and ministry leaders through Standing Stone Ministry.

 

Additional Resources:

 

ECFA.org/LeaderCare

Standing Stone Ministry

God Meetings Course

Creators and Guests

Host

Michael Martin

President & CEO of ECFA

What is Behind the Seal?

ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?

Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.

BTS - Jeramy and Jerusha Full Episode Mix
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[00:00:00] Dr. Jeramy Clark: Everything flows from Godly leadership. We just want godly men and women living out their faith, not overwhelmed, not with God complexes trying to to do everything themselves, but to walk in step with the strength of the Lord to flourish and finish their work.

[00:00:14] Jerusha Clark: We're gonna stand in the gap with these leaders and do battle as God enables us to, because we just love the thought of every ministry leader flourishing and then ending his or her call with joy.

[00:00:32] Ryan Gordon: What if the first signs of burnout in ministry weren't a crisis, but a whisper? A gentle warning from God that something needs attention? In this conversation, Michael Martin sits down with Dr. Jeremy and Jerusha Clark from Standing Stone Ministry.

What hit me most was this line: "God gives us emotions like warning lights on a car." It's so true. Many pastors and leaders push through stress, exhaustion, even isolation, without realizing how close they are to an implosion. Jeremy and Jerusha know what it's like to live under that pressure, and their story is an invitation to build healthier rhythms, restore joy, and find care for your soul before the boiling point.

Let's dive in.

[00:01:22] Michael Martin: Well, hey, Jeremy, Jerusha Clark. It's great to have you guys on the ECFA podcast.

[00:01:27] Dr. Jeramy Clark: Good to be here. Thanks for having us.

[00:01:28] Jerusha Clark: Yep.

[00:01:29] Michael Martin: Yeah. Jeremy, it's good to see you again. I know we saw each other recently on the road and today you're joined by your better half, so this is gonna be even better. Right?

[00:01:37] Dr. Jeramy Clark: Exactly. Exactly. And to me it was a just a God meeting. You and I weren't planning on connecting in Colorado, and then the Lord allowed us to meet up. Just one week before we're on this, uh, podcast, so it was, uh, nice to meet you in person and now here we are talking and this was lined up, so it is, it's just great to be able to make the connection.

[00:01:58] Michael Martin: It is. Yeah. I love God's sense of timing. We so appreciate your ministry Standing Stone and being able to partner with you as a ECFA accredited member, but even especially for today's conversation around Leader Care and excited to kind of turn to, you know, how does Leader Care also impact, uh, not just the leader, but ministry couples, their families. So we're so grateful for your ministry and, and for the time just to have this conversation today. Looking forward to it.

[00:02:25] Jerusha Clark: We are too? Yep.

[00:02:26] Michael Martin: Yeah. Well, great. Well, okay, so I've gotten to hear some of the story of how you guys as a couple were able to get into this ministry and all that God's allowing you to do now.

But yeah, just for the benefit of our podcast community, uh, can you tell us as a couple, how did you guys get launched into Sure. Standing Stone and all the great work there?

[00:02:43] Dr. Jeramy Clark: So I'm a church guy, and as a couple, we were just committed to the church and, uh, from the time I was young, grew up in a great church where I was discipled youth ministry, uh, youth camps, uh, the whole thing.

Um, and then even as a young man at 19 years [00:03:00] old, the senior pastor, uh, with his doctorate bringing me into a small group of discipleship and, and, you know, learning Greek words back when I was 19, it just gave me a vision for way beyond what I ever imagined for myself that I could actually have an impact in the kingdom of God.

And, and to me, the, it was always about the church, helping the church, um, using my spiritual gifting in the church. And so when I was, um, you know, dating, it was so important to me because I knew my wife, even my early disciples, uh, these men of God, they would say, Hey, your wife has veto power over your ministry.

And so I wanted to make sure that I was really, uh, aligned really well with, uh, my future spouse. And then obviously the Lord linked me up with Isha, who she had the same vision to care for the body of Christ. And so we'd always worked within the church, had great church experiences. It's not free from the typical drama, but fast forward, uh, year 27 in, in ministry, uh, it led to a hard departure in a, the, the most recent church that we worked in.

And quite surprising. Uh, I'm a challenger. Uh, by nature. I'm Italian. I came out of the womb ready for a fight. I mean, but, but, but in, in a healthy, in a healthy way. Let's just push through conflict towards. Resolution, healing wholeness? Well, the, the, uh, it, it wasn't welcomed. It led to a hard departure. Uh, it was a very, uh, different experience, a short lived experience.

It was only two years at that particular church, but it led us to really, what, what are we gonna do? We were gonna, uh, regroup a little bit, maybe take a sabbatical. Um, and that's when I, uh, rediscovered standing stone. It just had a very cursory understanding of who they were. Had met the founders at a fundraiser event, kept their business cards, and in this moment of transition, I looked them up and said, Hey, no moral failure.

Uh, no major triage stuff we need to deal with. We're just in transition. Do you have any. Resources as we look for what's next. And, and the foundry, he is like, yeah, more than resources. We have a job. Do you know about our, you never know when you reach out what you're gonna get. Yep. Yeah. He's like, uh, he's like, do you know about our field shepherding ministry where we have boots on the ground, pastors like you, who go out and do leader care?

And I said, no. And, and so I'm looking at his website as I'm talking to him, and as I read it, it, it literally reached off of the page and it, it grabbed me. The, the, the descriptive, the, the description, the way it was laid out, the work itself. I was like. This was what I've done my whole career. I've discipled ministry leaders and, and that's been something that's been a big part of my life.

So when I read through this, everything looked awesome, [00:06:00] except for it said, you have to raise your own support. And I'm like, ah, you know, um, okay. So we, we discovered the work. We, we went to the training and we were like, Hey, we're gonna pray about this. If this is what the Lord wants and we know we've seen him, uh, provide for us before, we'll trust that he will, uh, in this as well.

And so about a month of prayer, we both came to the conclusion that this is our calling. Our calling is to strengthen the church. And this was something that was outside of what I had done within the context of a church. But we are always kingdom-minded folks. And so here, someone that, uh. Moore saw in the past, uh, a nonprofit, parachurch is kind of a, a dirty word, uh, in, in, in church circles.

It can be seen that way. And here somehow, not only did I join this work, but then, uh, two years into it, then took the helm, uh, and, uh, became the president for the last three years. So we've been doing this for over five years now. And, uh, someone asked recently if you could do something else, would you, if someone came to you and I, and I really, there's.

There's nothing that is more appealing than what we are doing right now. We feel really called to this work.

[00:07:16] Jerusha Clark: Yeah. Uh, my story's a little bit shorter. When Jeremy mentioned to me the conversation that he had in describing Standing Stone and then me doing my own look at the information, I was just so drawn to a ministry that provided care without cost for pastors.

It wasn't free because we raised our own support, but that was a huge thing for me. 'cause I knew where we were at financially during hard points in our journey and how hard it would've been to try to make that work. But then also that we care for the spouse of the ministry leader. Um, that is so important because having been a pastor's wife for over 20 years, I knew the unique challenges that went with that.

And it was, I. Just such a joy to think about speaking into the lives of those women and being part of a team of women that were looking to invest in the lives, not only of pastor's wives, but also women in ministry, whether you know their missionaries or parachurch workers or working in a traditional church.

So that's, it was a draw for both of us because of the compelling nature of the work. The work itself was what, what really drew us.

[00:08:27] Michael Martin: Yeah, what a beautiful story and echo that. Yeah, very compelling. All that you're doing. Uh, Jerusha there's probably some stories there with, uh, hearing Jeremy's Italian heritage.

Uh, I don't know, some marriage stories, but maybe that's another podcast.

[00:08:40] Jerusha Clark: I'm not sure about those for this podcast.

[00:08:42] Michael Martin: We'll save that for another episode. No, uh, that's all so wonderful. And, uh, I was gonna ask about that piece of, I think there's a, a lot of different distinctives, but the care without cost, you know, tell us just about the impact that that has on, um, you know, ministry [00:09:00] leaders that you're reaching out to.

'cause we do hear that sometimes it's like, oh, well, is Leader care just a luxury? Is it only for those who have financial resources? I, I love being able to hear that there's ministries like yours that are modeled in this way. Maybe tell us a little bit more about that.

[00:09:14] Dr. Jeramy Clark: Yeah, so what we like to say, and we meet with a ministry leader.

We say, look, this isn't a free service, but it's free to you. Because we have a team of supporters that believe in your calling and want to see you flourish and finish well. And what we have discovered is that it really is accelerating our work because it's a trusted, confidential relationship that we believe ministry leaders need most.

So when they're sitting at their desk, isolated, alone, ready to quit, uh, wondering how to navigate the next challenge, uh, we come in like a, a, a caddy, you know, saying, Hey, we know how to play this. If you're, you know, those of you don't play golf. Someone who's played this hole before in this weather, these challenges with elders, staff, whatever it might be.

But we come in as a trusted, confidential relationship. And so here's the thing, um, even, you know, research has, has shown what does a pastor want most, um, in their challenges? They wanna walk with someone who's walked in their shoes. So you, you can think you know what it's like to be a pastor, but unless you've been one, you truly have no clue.

It's, it's really such a different animal than, and unless you've, you know, walked through Costco, uh, as a pastor's wife and had a congregant look in your basket to see what you're buying and hey, what, what do you have in there? What, you know, are you guys, it looks like there's a bottle-

[00:10:50] Jerusha Clark: Only organic!

[00:10:51] Dr. Jeramy Clark: No, no.

Is that a bottle of vodka there or what's going on? Are you guys doing okay? Um, but, but, uh, there's a dynamic of of if you don't wanna live in a glass house, get out. And, and we know the challenges of what it's like to be a pastor and what a pastor needs most when they're sitting at that desk. We don't send 'em a book, a video, a link to a video series.

We send them a friend. Who can walk with them. And what happens is, uh, because of our, um, offering is free. I mean, there's downsides to that because some people will feel like you get what you pay for. Um, but what, what, what we are finding is it accelerates the relationship because it's not transactional.

[00:11:37] Jerusha Clark: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:38] Dr. Jeramy Clark: We don't have a transactional And, and being in ministry for, you know, at a particular church for a long time, I encountered many times along the way, a coach sitting with me having coffee. I'm not realizing he's gonna make a pitch. And then pretty soon he's got this $8,000, you know, plan for me to meet with him [00:12:00] regularly.

And we cut all of that out. And we think this, this, um, is so critical. What we're doing is so critical and we're seeing breakthroughs. We're seeing, uh, pastors being able to flourish and finish well in their calling because it's not based on a, a money transaction, but it's based on a building a, a real friendship and a passion, and that is the church.

Mm-hmm. And the kingdom of God. And to see it, uh, advance. And so there are other ministries that we love that do leader care, um, yet they have a fee, uh, based, uh. You know, aspect to what they do. And we feel like this really is accelerating the work, accelerating our work, uh, because there's access and people are saying, Hey, being in ministry, the salary I make, I don't have access to this.

Mm-hmm. I can't pay for, and I'm so grateful that this is offered for free. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:54] Michael Martin: Sure. Yeah. No, and coming back to something else that you said as well about, um, what allows you to be effective of, you know, being somebody who's. You know, walked a mile in those shoes, let's just say. Mm-hmm. Or kind of experienced that.

Um, yeah, so this is the Behind the SEAL podcast. We go behind the scenes, you know, right behind the scenes at UCFA, behind the scenes with those that we're in conversation with. So at whatever level you feel comfortable. I'd just also love to hear, uh, even about your own journey, you know, your time in ministry.

Were there times that you, as a couple walked through, you know, some of these kinds of challenges that helped then prepare you for the kind of ministry that you're in today? J you were touching on that a little bit. Yeah. Uh, even as a ministry spouse, do you want to speak to that?

[00:13:39] Jerusha Clark: Yeah, absolutely. And. You know, these are not necessarily easy things for us to talk about.

Um, but after I delivered our first child, um, I had really severe postpartum depression. And this is in the year 2001. There's no conversation in the church about mental health. Yeah. I'm a young pastor's wife and I was admitted to the psychiatric ward and I thought I ruined my husband's mission and calling.

Um, we didn't know how to go forward from here. Had no idea if there was any help or hope for me. It was a really scary time. And the people that came around, Jeremy. We're not necessarily experts like we would send in a Standing Stone person, but it was those relationships that that helped us get through.

It wasn't a book that someone sent us. It wasn't, you know, I mean, I was fortunate to have good medical care, but without the supporting, like the net undergirding us, our life would've been so different. So when we, you know, Jeremy never left ministry during that time, but when I reentered, I felt completely, um, surrounded by love.

He had the full support of, [00:15:00] um, his colleague pastors that were praying over him, um, staying with him. That was huge. So that happened pretty early on in our marriage. And then fast forward, um, we were in a ministry situation. I. The kind of situation that you never think you're gonna face in the church because you assume that there's sin outside the camp, but not inside the camp, which is, again, not easy to talk about.

Um, but this was a situation where we were really, um, perplexed about how to honor God in a situation where, and we needed counsel and we were so fortunate to be able to have, um, counsel from people that did not, you know, charge us for this, and that were, um, both supporting us but had walked a mile in our shoes in terms of they were people that had worked in churches known about these situations.

Professional, um, counselor that willingly talked to us as a friend, not as a, we were just. So blessed in that regard. So that all happened, I would say about two years before we joined Standing Stone. And so our experience in early ministry and then our experience just before joining Standing Stone, those two things showed us how powerful it can be for someone to come alongside a couple or a ministry leader or both, that, um, was in need that had something.

And fortunately in our ministry with Standing Stone, we don't always have to deal with triage situations. You know, it's not always a spouse whip of postpartum depression or, you know, um, a really difficult church situation. Sometimes we're helping pastors stay healthy. We love that of work. That is so good.

And when the triage is necessary, we're there. Right? So it's just those things really compelled us. The one other story that I'll tell really briefly is that, um, in 2016, we had the opportunity to travel overseas to Dubai and India to represent the church we were serving at, at a memorial service for one of our pastors.

And he had, he wanted to die with his boots on, died serving the Untouchables, the Dali people in India. And when we got over there and were supporting his wife and supporting all the people that he had loved on both of us just caught a vision for caring for leaders. And so the way that God wove that all together into this, when Jeremy told me about Standing Stone, then, you know, in 2019, it was like, oh, I see what God's doing here.

Okay. You know, suffering, um, joy, vision, need, I, it was just all the alignment. So.

[00:17:49] Michael Martin: Yeah. Well thank you for sharing that and even for sharing some of the things that have been challenges that God has used in just giving voice to. Um, I know, you know, every [00:18:00] situation is unique and different, but what a lot of different couples, right, like experience that are in ministry, and thank you for giving voice to that and um, yeah, just beautiful to see how God is using all that.

I guess too, I'd be curious because, you know, God's really grown the work of Standing Stone and sort of all that you all are doing and you have a really unique vantage point into what's happening, uh, in ministry. And you see, you, you, you're able to interact with so many different spouses, leaders that are in ministry.

Uh, as you kinda look at things from your vantage point today, like what are some of the most common challenges that you see that ministry couples are facing?

[00:18:41] Dr. Jeramy Clark: Uh, interesting. Um, there is a dynamic of just how challenging the pastoral. Um, leadership position is by itself. And, and, and we find that accelerates, it's almost like a pressure cooker, uh, to our marriages, right?

So we, uh, in a normal marriage, you don't have a church of a hundred, 200, 500, a thousand, 5,000. You don't have all of those pressures putting you in a pressure cooker. And, um, even now, um, so we, we hear that that's kind of a common thread that just the challenge of ministry itself is crushing at times.

Mm-hmm. Because there's pressures to live perfectly to be the Bible answer man, answer woman to have, uh, perfected. The scriptures that we teach on every week, the reality is we teach things from the pulpit or in, uh, small groups that we've not perfected all the time. We are in process, but there's an aspect of expectation, whether it is, um, you know, even understood by those who are being led, that, uh, the leader should have these things fleshed out in their home.

And, and yet, uh, pastors and spouses go home to ornery kids and, and disciplinary challenges. And so, so that is a, a, a framework just, just goes across the board. Now, I, I think through our challenges, which we've had many, and, and we, through our, we feel like people identify more with our weaknesses than they do with our successes.

And, and so we're in a ministry where I feel like. Uh, the comfort that the Lord has shown us is the comfort, comfort that we want to show others and the challenges that we've been able to learn from and experience. We want to make sure that, you know, we use these experiences and, and come alongside and, and bring that guidance and that comfort.

So, um, as we are in this world, we want to say we don't have these things all figured out, but here's some things that we've learned. And so when it comes to pastors and their [00:21:00] spouses and the normal challenges, uh, it, it's all the same, you know, marital frustrations, but in a pressure cook cooker. So, uh, we are with our executive or our director team yesterday, and we asked them what are the, some of the current things that you're seeing right now?

And they talked about communication being a big issue. Well, I'm sure that's the same in uh, any home, right? What are some of the other things they brought up?

[00:21:26] Jerusha Clark: Yeah, I mean from the perspective of, oh, my husband is married to the church, or, you know, values the mission over our family, um, you know, exhaustion, just playing fatigue.

Like not having anything when they come home to offer their kids or checking out on Saturday afternoon 'cause they know service is coming. Those are are real things that happen pretty much across the board. You've got challenges with elder boards, but then Michael, we go to another level as well where there are crises, um, where people are using, you know, something like food to meet emotional needs or they start looking at pornography because they are desperate to feel something and they're trapped now all of a sudden.

Or they're involved in a relationship that they know is inappropriate and they don't know how to break out. I mean, gambling, we are. Facing substance abuse, alcohol abuse. And these are not the primary, but they are happening. And so praying for our kingdom leaders, I mean, if you think about what the Bible teaches, that if you strike the shepherd, the sheep will scatter.

Mm-hmm. So we should know that the enemy is attacking leaders, he's attacking kingdom leaders, whether they're on a mission field or in a church or working for crew or FCA, that he is attacking leaders. And so they're the chinks in their armor, whatever that might be. You know, he's gonna go after those. So standing stone is there to help be armor bearers in a way, and like, we're gonna stand in the gap with these leaders and do battle as God enables us to, to prevent these crises from becoming implosions.

You know, if we meet with someone and they're struggling with alcohol, we can walk them to wholeness and help alongside of maybe other, you know. But if you find out after somebody has blown up their life with, um, you know, an affair and deconstructing their faith, it's a lot harder journey back. Right? So we wanna get in there and really encourage a pastor that's married to the church rather than his wife to say, Hey, when you go to the end of that story, it's not a good end.

Let's start here and really invest in the communication skills and the things that you're facing so that the story can be flourishing and finishing. Well, that's, that's one of our tag, obviously taglines. 'cause we just love the thought of every ministry leader flourishing [00:24:00] and then ending his or her call with joy, not with like getting to the finish line and you know, so, yeah.

[00:24:07] Michael Martin: Yeah, no, that's absolutely what we want to see as well. And you know, yeah. That really helps paint the picture in terms of the, uh, burdens, right. That leaders are facing. And I like what you said there about, um, the pressure cooker analogy. Um, and thank God, yes, we are all still in process. Um, but Josh, you were just sharing there too about, you know, eventually that implosion Yeah.

That could happen. What are some warning signs that we can be looking for where, um, we're no longer talking about maybe just some of the general burdens and challenges that people may be facing, but like, hey, warning sign that we're maybe headed for one of those implosions you were talking about.

[00:24:48] Jerusha Clark: Yeah, I think, um, not being able to name and tame your own emotions.

So I am angry, I'm sad, I. Most ministry leaders just shove the, those things to the side and get on with their work. But God gives us emotions as they're almost like lights on a dashboard of a car. If we ignore those in a car, the car's eventually gonna break down, right? So if we ignore sadness, we ignore anger, we ignore, um, fear for too long.

So we as a, a ministry, really practice some of the emotionally healthy techniques that have been pioneered by others, and we implement those. We've developed our own tool, a proprietary tool that helps a pastor just get a glimpse of where they're at on the emotional, um, health spectrum. The, the mental game is huge for pastors.

Like what are, what's going on in your thoughts day to day, right? Because an implosion often starts with a thought. My life would be better if, Hmm, that is a road that can go a very, very long distance. You know, everywhere from a pastor sitting at his, um, desk scrolling for new jobs. You know, that's a, a low level to a pastor imagining himself in a, in a situation that could eventually really hurt his family and church.

[00:26:15] Dr. Jeramy Clark: And I think, um, there are indicators, uh, beginning to, uh, just be isolated, avoiding people. Uh, there's ways in which you just are outta your, you feel uncomfortable in your own skin and you start to, uh, avoid things that you used to, uh, press into. And I think there are ways to just even be aware, self-aware of maybe some of these things that stress.

I think a lot of it. Comes to stress. Stress with board members, stress with church members, stress with staff, these stress stressors and how we deal with them. We be, if we're not careful, we're not dealing with this, um, stress in a healthy way. It begins to become unhealthy. We begin to do things to [00:27:00] cope and, and it becomes unhealthy.

And to know yourself and have people close enough to you, your spouse, to be able to call out this doesn't seem consistent with you and your character. What's going on. Uh, and, and again, to be aware, have, have some of those check engine lights Yeah. That give us the warning sign that I'm not in a good, healthy spot.

I need some time off. I need, I need some healthy outlets that can help me stay healthy. But I think some of those things can be indicators that you're headed down the, the wrong path.

[00:27:33] Jerusha Clark: That really makes me think about, um, two other signs. One is decrease in physical health. We see a lot of pastors that just are not healthy physically.

They have like chronic complaints of, you know, stomach, head, stomach aches, headaches. They, the stress is manifesting itself in their body. So that was one thing. And then I would say the other, you know, thing that we really see with, um, with pastors that aren't kind of moving toward that implosion is that they, um, stop spending time with the Lord except for to like study.

They're studying for their sermon or they're gonna teach on X or they're gonna lead this song, but they don't have that intimacy any longer. That gives them joy in the Lord. It's like they're spending time. For a job. And we get that. Yeah. I'm really glad

[00:28:29] Dr. Jeramy Clark: you brought that up because we get

[00:28:30] Jerusha Clark: that, it,

[00:28:30] Dr. Jeramy Clark: it, if I, it's really important, we can talk about all these factors, but it always comes down to a vibrant walk with Christ.

Yeah. And, and to nurture that, to press into it, to have meaningful times where you're with the Lord. Something that, uh, you know, I've used for years I learned in seminar is, uh, the hour that changes the world by Dick Eastman, it just lays out an hour, five in five minute increments, how to just spend time with the Lord in prayer.

I think these dynamics of being healthy. When I start to get stressed, it's like, man, I need to just go out on a prayer walk. I need to spend time with the Lord and to think through, not how I am going to address these things, but Lord, what are you, what is your answer to these challenges? How do you want I.

Me to press into this and what are you going to do? Yeah. About these issues. It's not that I, I'm gonna be able to solve 'em all, but I'm trusting in you to speak into my life in a real way

[00:29:32] Jerusha Clark: and I'll join you. Yeah,

[00:29:34] Michael Martin: yeah. I know. We all can relate to that, that's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Following in the way of Jesus.

Yeah. He modeled that. No doubt about it. Well, that's a great list of, you know, warning signs and Of course, yeah. That key of just intimacy, uh, with the Lord, uh, is, is so important. I wanted to also come back to something, you both have touched on this at different points too, but not just care in moments of crises, but also [00:30:00] what does it look like?

Talk to us about the importance of the proactive piece and, and leaders and couples having some of these proactive plans. Like what's the real benefit of that?

[00:30:09] Dr. Jeramy Clark: Yeah. Well, I think, um, we're identifying in the leader care space that pastors are good at helping others, uh, prioritize their lives. But they don't really have a great theology of rest for themselves that it almost doesn't exist.

It's like it's, it's for everyone else and it's prescriptive and, and, um, we can lay it out, but where does it say that the pastor, and where is our theology? Where is our understanding of our own personal as we lead God's people? Where are we allowed to take that? And, and I think, uh, fundamentally, a missing theology of how important and fundamental that is.

Uh, to our own health and vibrancy of our own lives, our families, but then our ministry. And so we're taught, and we're so many people shoot out of the seminary cannon with just this extremity of wanting to, to change the world. And there's, there's, uh, unhealthy, uh, rhythms that just begin to drive a lot of ministry leaders into exhaustion and into an early exit from their calling.

'cause they can't maintain it. Right. So I think, um, I'm, I'm, uh, privileged, I was blessed to be able to work at, uh, a few large churches where we had, we were afforded, uh, a multiple staff so I didn't have to carry the full burden. I was a, um, an associate team member and, and we had good rhythms where it was, it was like, look.

Uh, don't feed the monster because we would talk about the church is, is the, the monster. And if we're not careful in, in a negative way, we could just feed the monster. It's always hungry and we could, uh, kill ourselves in administrivia, just administrivia, pushing papers, constantly just doing, doing, doing, doing.

But I, I read a, a great book, the Trellis and the Vine, and this dynamic of, you know, the church and its programs and the building is the trellis. And often we neglect the vine work, the deep discipleship of cultivating, feeding, watering, caring for the vine and, and making disciples. But all we're really doing, a lot of times in our programs, it's all about painting the trellis, getting a bigger trellis, uh, arguing over the trellis.

Um, and it's a lot of trellis work. And so, so in, in our conversations as a staff is like, Hey, you guys need to be healthy. Let's not just get caught up in busy work. Let's make sure that you're taking [00:33:00] time. And one of the things that we talked about is, um, scheduling health in our own home, scheduling health in our fa with our families scheduling it, because people often do not argue with your schedule.

So here's a little tip, pastor, if you're listening, everyone listen. Yeah. This, this has been super helpful. Um, someone might be reaching out to you for the first time with a crisis. Now for them, this is the first time they've really needed you. But you have an event with your kids. You're going to a gymnastics event, uh, to go be there for your, your daughter or a sporting event, or your, you've got a date with your wife.

Well for them, this is, uh, the, the congregation, uh, member, the congregate. They feel like, you should be there for me. I need, I need you. But if you do that for everybody, then your family never gets your full attention. You're always, and what Jerusha was bringing up earlier, what we see a lot is, uh, pastors married to the church and kids witness this.

The church is more important than we are. And so we would encourage our pastors to schedule your date nights, schedule your times with your kids, and, and if someone said, oh, I'm so sorry. I already have something on my schedule. You don't have to say it's with my wife or with with my daughter. You, I already have something on my schedule.

Why? Because it's a priority. And, and here's the other thing, um, yeah, you may choose in the moment. To go ahead and, and meet with the person based on the scenario. But if you're not careful, there'll always be something that will pull you away from the pri the thing that should be a priority. Um, and, uh, in, in our leader care space, uh, we say that the emergency rooms will always be full.

And, and you gotta think about that a little bit. We could busy ourselves constantly in the er and the, the chaos and the drama and the challenges we're, we're wanting to measure and live healthfully and, and not let others' problems become what drives us to have problems in our marriages, in our homes, in our families, in our work, right?

So we wanna be measured, we wanna be. Um, benevolently detached from those that we're caring for. So we, we love them deeply, but there has to be a, an, an appropriate detachment so that we're not letting their problems become our problems. And we're really wanting to put the fence at the top of the hill in preventative work.

And prevention is, what do they say? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And, and so we really are trying to focus on that preventative work. In our own [00:36:00] lives, but in those that we're caring for.

[00:36:02] Jerusha Clark: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:36:03] Dr. Jeramy Clark: Wow.

[00:36:04] Michael Martin: Okay. You're challenging us, but in good ways. Bring it on. We need to hear this. Uh, that was so good.

Um, just thinking too, uh, thank you for the support that I know Standing Stone has been to an ECFA, this new Leader Care standard. And just speaking of the importance of, right, like having healthy systems and structures, like we believe that governing boards really play a key role in this as well. They're, they're kind of a linchpin in a lot of ways.

So what are some ways that you all feel like we can help normalize some of these conversations around, uh, care for leaders and especially the board's role, like mm-hmm. We know that's a huge piece, you know, um, being able to come alongside leaders like you, you all said. Uh, I mean, I think it's always good when leaders can be kind of doing a lot of that work themselves and, um, taking ownership of that, but.

Talk to us about the board piece as well, like how do we normalize some of that?

[00:37:00] Jerusha Clark: Yeah. That's such an important component because when this work first started, standing Stone had been going for, um, a little over 15 years before Jeremy and I joined, and one of the things they recognized after, um, a few years of being in existence is they could help the pastor get healthy, but if they sent them back to an unhealthy church board.

There was gonna be still a lot of troubles. And so they started working with boards that were willing to have these conversations. And that became one of like the three prongs of Standing Stone, caring for the ministry and spouse, caring for boards, and then caring for seminary students who we are trying to proactively equip before they got into the ministry.

So just two years ago, we brought together, um, different experts from across the country to create, um, a resource, both in book and video, um, about how to have healthy board meetings because, um, and healthy board perspectives. Here's the reason why Michael, so many of our board, um, the people that join boards are business people who have great hearts, they love the Lord, but they may not understand the rhythms of ministry they, you know, are given.

Paid time off they're given, you know, um, sick days, personal days. They have their weekends, so to speak, and they think, well, you know, pastor only works a couple hours on Sunday, right? So that's kind of like half a day off and I mean, there's, there's just some weird perspectives. And so helping train that is super important.

There's, um, there's a lot of work to be done there because a lot of boards, um, don't feel like they have time. They're like, oh, we we're so busy making these decisions, we can't actually grow. That's a little backwards in the, you know, in the attitude. But that is one of our desires and we are trying to model that by having a very healthy board ourself.

We brought in [00:39:00] board governance expert. We moved from a founder's board to a governing board so that we could really, um. Be a model in the leader care space so that when a pastor that we're serving or missionary we're serving looks at our organization, they go, how can my board function like that? Yeah.

So I'll give you for instance for this, um, last year Jeremy and I were in nine states and five countries in the first nine months of last year. And we had never traveled that much before. Our team is very spread out. We have like over 260 and they're in 32 different states. And we were, you know, a a couple different countries and we were tired, like really tired.

And at our August board meeting, um, the board took us aside and said, we want you to take, um, some time off. We need you to, 'cause we can see you're tired and. I pretty much started crying 'cause I was so grateful. They're not trying to do to us what churches often do to their pastor, which is okay, you're tired, go get a day, you know, and then come back and get back to work.

So there's both the instructional piece and the modeling piece, you know, that we're trying to do at Standing Stone. Um, but we recognize this is a big area for us to grow in, um, to help the, the ministry leaders we're serving to then reach out to their boards. And so one of the things And how did they have

[00:40:27] Michael Martin: that, sorry to interject.

How did they have that conversation with you? Because I think that's really important for board members that are listening. There is a way to go about having those conversations.

[00:40:37] Dr. Jeramy Clark: Totally. So, um, they always have an executive session. Uh, we have quarterly board meetings, and so they have. Uh, me exit so they can talk about me.

I'm an ex-officio, uh, board member, but they'll bring me back in and, and I attend

[00:40:52] Jerusha Clark: all the meetings too. So I, she attends them,

[00:40:54] Dr. Jeramy Clark: but in, in, in, at the end, I don't vote. They bring me back in and they say, Hey, look, we, we love that. We're 37% growth this year. We're, we're just, there's so many things that are going great.

Um, you can't keep this pace going. And, um, and listen to this, they said, it's not, not our job to tell you what to do. We're gonna make you make a few suggestions. And they said one of 'em is between now and December. It was August. This was this last August between now and December. Can you let us know in the next couple weeks, uh, when you're gonna take some time off?

And we would love for it to be two weeks in a row. It is. Like that's, we

[00:41:36] Jerusha Clark: had never had two weeks in a row, ever. Right. Like two weeks in a row.

[00:41:39] Dr. Jeramy Clark: Yeah. And, and you know, we're a 30 plus year ministry couple, and they're saying, Hey, we, we want you to take intentional time off, get away from this work because we want to make sure that you stay healthy.

Now, the thing I should say, and, um, I'm a huge fan of what ECFA has done and the movement of where this is [00:42:00] headed and ECFA, I have to say, as a seal, a standard of excellence. We worked for two years. When I took the helm as president, we were working really hard to get our finances to where we could get accreditation from ECFA.

It was really the gold standard that we were shooting for. And when we, we attained it, um, we saw. An additional influx of, of support. And, um, people saw that this matters to us mm-hmm. To be audited. And so, um, it's a big deal that, that we're part of, uh, ECFA and I wanna say thank you for what you do. 'cause it matters.

And I really like this idea of, hey, we can do more. We can help leaders. And that's our, uh, mission to let boards know, because a lot of 'em don't understand the critical need, uh, of the health of the leader. Uh, everything flows from godly leadership. We just want godly men and women living out their faith, not overwhelmed, not with God complexes trying to, to do everything themselves, but to walk in step with the strength of the Lord to, to finish, flourish and finish their work.

Right. So, um, I took the leader Care revised standard that, uh, you just recently sent out. I sent it to two of my board members. And they're the two that I meet with most. It's the chairman and the co-chairman and, and they're, they're the, uh, the two that are really helping, uh, direct me and encourage me on a regular basis.

And I sent it to them and said, Hey, you guys are doing a great job. As leading, I feel supported. I feel encouraged. I feel C cared for protected. Um, and I said, and this will help us, uh, think through next steps of how we can move forward in making sure that we have a good action plan for me or who, whoever comes next.

I think every leader should have a succession plan. I hope to be in this role a long time, but I also know that I won't be the last leader. So how can I set this organization up to where someone comes in and feels cared for and it has all the, um, you know, safety mechanisms in place. To carry this thing forward for, for many years to come.

So, uh, one more thing I, I think is important. Uh, our co-chairman is Rick Hicks, who was the former president of Operation Mobilization for 14 years. He just happened to, happens to have a PhD in organizational leadership and he just happens to be a, a, a expert in governance and he goes around the world and teaches governance.

And so we took a two year plan and wrote a governance policy manual. And it, it's the framework of how we function as an organization. And the board just cares about the what, and they leave it up to [00:45:00] me. They have one employee and they leave it up to me to carry out the how and it, and it's so healthy.

And I, I just feel so privileged to work with the board that I do, and it really is, uh, the best boss I I've ever had. It's just, uh, really, it's really great. And I think, uh, having health, a healthy board. Is everything. And really making sure that they have the right instruction and direction. And so I, I, I'm grateful for the work that you're doing, and I fully support it.

[00:45:32] Michael Martin: Oh, well, thank you. You're speaking our language. If ECFA had a love language, it'd be governance. I've ever said that before, but I, I think there's some truth to that. It's powerful. It's so powerful. It's, um, and we're just grateful that we can play even just a small part in, in what God is doing. There was one other thing that I think would be really important for you all to touch on too, just continuing this vein of governance is, uh, the importance to, and I've seen this in my own life, but the power of a board investing, not just in the leader, but again, coming back to where you all specialize so well, which is, uh, the leader as part of a.

Uh, healthy marriage, healthy family. Uh, so talk to us about too, as boards are investing in leader care, how can they incorporate not just the leader, but the leader's whole family into that process?

[00:46:24] Jerusha Clark: Yeah. They have to be willing to learn, um, because this is not intuitive stuff, mostly Michael, because a lot of people don't have healthy lives themselves, you know, so you have people directing a board that really don't know how to care for their own life, you know, in a, in a healthy way.

And they're like, we had some bizarre things said to us in ministry, like, well, it'd be nice if I got a vacation to Hawaii. And I was like. My parents are taking it. You feel like you have to justify what you're doing because people don't seem to get some of these things. So I would say there's a humility that, um, naturally precedes healthy board members and healthy board commitment to marriages.

Like we don't necessarily know, so we want to grow. So maybe a portion of every meeting is spent talking about how to grow as a healthy board. You know, that's what we did for two years at Standing Stone. And then I think also, um, involving the spouse by actually knowing what's going on. You know, kind of not in a Big Brother way, but just in a really helpful like, you know, a board member and his wife sitting down and just saying, Hey, we love you guys.

You know, we see that you haven't taken a vacation for, I. A year, you know, how can we help you, um, with that really personal and, and loving rather than, um, transactional like professional, I think is, is a important way [00:48:00] to go. That was again, um, how it happened with us. It felt very much like care. It, it truly did versus an order, you know?

Um,

[00:48:11] Dr. Jeramy Clark: and, and in our governance manual, uh, it actually states that Isha will travel with me. Always like, so, so they put that in there that it's not even a question that even if she doesn't have an assignment with, uh, where I'm headed, she's, it's just put in there. They wanna make sure that we're healthy, we're staying together.

That it's not that I can't travel alone, but I mean, they, they care about that and they want the organization to, to, uh, support that with, you know, the activities. But I think the, um, some of the most tender care that we've received from, um, I. An elder board. Our current board is, is actually knowing what's going on in our lives and our kids' lives and the challenges that we're facing.

And then they're thoughtful, prayerful. It's not just about the job that we're doing. Yeah. But it's investing in us as, as people. And so it won't be that way, I don't think it needs to be that way with everybody on a board, but there should be a few people on the board. And I think a healthy, um, example of how this could work.

When I was at, uh, Emanuel Faith, uh, community church in Escondido for 15 years, a very significant, uh, church group of, uh, committed believers that we raised our, our kids around. And it was just a wonderful, uh, church family. We still love so many people there. Um, we assigned, uh, an elder. To each of the pastors that there would be a commitment that not everything needed to be shared, but there would be a sense of if in a board meeting or, or, Hey, let's talk to that particular elder.

I know he meets with the youth pastor on a weekly or a monthly basis. Um, and we encourage the pastors to make sure that the elders that you're assigned to are aware of the, some of the challenges and the personnel, and we'd encourage that particular elder. Usually they were already involved in that ministry and so that was helpful as well.

So I think those things are really important for the health of the pastor and the connectivity to a board and the life of the church and those who are doing the work.

[00:50:28] Jerusha Clark: I would say also adding in board members. Encourage your pastor to have someone like a standing Stone Shepherd that's a confidential, trusted relationship outside the church so that anything that they feel nervous or resistant about saying, um, that they have somewhere that they are dialoguing and getting wise, godly counsel about.

Um, because it's natural to not want to tell an elder everything that's going on at home when you're afraid. Then you might get fired, which Michael has happened [00:51:00] more. Times then. Yeah. You know, it's, it's a sad reality. So to have a board that encourages you to have a standing Stone Shepherd or you know, someone through any other of these, um, soul care leader care, um, environments, they can write into their bylaws that this, the pastors need a Sabbath every week.

And they are not, they're required to not do duties like, you know, boards can actually write that into the bylaws or spiritual, um, health days once a month where they get a half day off. And that is written into, again, to their bylaws only a half day off. I'm, I'm just kidding. A

[00:51:40] Dr. Jeramy Clark: retreat.

[00:51:43] Jerusha Clark: Retreat.

[00:51:44] Dr. Jeramy Clark: I wanna, I say something. Um, I think it's really interesting. Um, and in fact, anyone can go to our website and, and hit the link that says Connect with the Shepherd. So our team members are called Shepherds. They're all veteran pastors and spouses that have walked at least for seven years, so mandatory, but most of them decades.

Yeah, decades of ministry experience. They fill, you fill out a form, and then you get connected either locationally or just by a topic of interest, uh, you know, or concern, and we'll link you up with somebody. Um, one of the things that we've noticed is that, um, there are, there's uh, a large church that reached out to Standing Stone and, and they wanted to know all about what we do because they've had a lot of challenges with staff, a lot of affairs, a lot of just difficulty, and they walked away and said, well, we're, we are going to put in a.

Uh, a another level of, of elder care. So they're basically saying, Hey, we're gonna have our, our elders, elders care for the, the pastors. And I said, well, be careful. I don't know that you, it, it, it'll work as well because it's hard to have intimacy when there's a power dynamic. Mm-hmm. So, so there's a power dynamic that just happens now.

Now there, uh, as a friend of mine who led someone to the Lord as a senior pastor, led someone to the Lord, discipled him for 10 years. The, the, this gentleman became an elder. And then when this pastor was in a posi, a position where he was thinking about retiring, the, the man that he discipled led to the Lord saw, become an elder, met with him awkwardly and fired him.

And, and so we hear these stories and that's why so many feel who, who is a safe person? That I can talk to. And if I, if I share what's really going on, will it cost me my, my life? And think about a pastor and his family. It's not just losing their community. It's uprooting their family and their kids and their school systems.

It's a big deal. It's, it's like [00:54:00] getting ripped out and everything that, you know, gets taken away from you. And the people, unfortunately, the last week, they were their, your close friends this week. They see you at the grocery store. If you've been let go, they don't know how they walk away from you. They don't know how to say hi to you.

This is just one of the challenges that we face in, uh, leader care space and as, as people that, you know, serve in ministry. So the thing that we encourage is, yes, the best that you can have an elder connected, involved in the ministry, aware what's going on, praying for the pastors, caring for them, knowing in real time what's going on.

But then they can encourage them to be connected to a standing Stone Shepherd where there is a trusted, confidential dynamic where there's safety. Mm-hmm. And no sense of how am my jobs, uh, on the line if I share what's going on.

[00:54:52] Jerusha Clark: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:53] Dr. Jeramy Clark: And for us, we want, we see ourselves kinda like a, a concierge of, of wholeness.

Like we wanna walk them towards wholeness. And if we have to refer, we have a nice referral network to get them the expert help that they need, that can help them again, flourish and finish in their calling.

[00:55:12] Michael Martin: That's a good word. Um, you know, in important distinction, right? And we say this too with boards is yes, there needs to be kind of a posture of care structures in place to make sure that the leader's cared for.

Um, but it's not always to say like, the board needs to be the one providing all of that care. Right? And so I appreciate that distinction too, and just the importance of safe spaces. I mean, all of that is, is so good. Um, I'm thinking too, just as we kind of. Bring the conversation to a close. Something I want to come back to earlier as well is, uh, Jerusha, I think you had mentioned that there's a resource that you all make available to about, uh, with the focus on boards and having healthy board meetings.

Mm-hmm. Is that something that's publicly available? Yeah. That we can link in our show notes?

[00:55:55] Jerusha Clark: Yeah. It's called God Meetings and it's written by one of our Standing Stone Shepherds, Dave Beckwith. And the, the videos that are attached are experts from around the country, so that's, and it comes with those videos are.

Training modules that a board could go through and use in each, you know, let's say they wanna take a year and really study how to be a healthy board, that they could watch those videos together at a meeting and then come back and talk about 'em. So that is available and we also, um, you know, would wanna share with boards.

We just are getting the copyright on it, our proprietary tool called the Wholeness Inventory that is real, kind of like a spiritual MRI for a leader and just a noticing tool. Where are you at in these areas of formation? Everything from sexual formation, digital formation, physical formation, formation through abiding.

It's a very comprehensive tool that a board could, um, you know, have all of their staff take with a Standing Stone Shepherd and then move forward in, in a. [00:57:00] Growth, um, you know, a growth trajectory through that relationship. So we can definitely share the, the links with you. And we're, we're sure excited about joining Arms, linking Arms together with the other leader care professionals like ECFA and, um, just real honor.

[00:57:19] Michael Martin: Yeah, that resource will be terrific. Thank you for your generosity in sharing that. And just kind of thinking of a, a, of a final question here. Uh, we didn't have a chance to really go deep in this earlier. Uh, I wish we had maybe had a little more time even to do this. We talked about the importance of communication.

Mm-hmm. And I just sense like maybe there are people who are listening and it's whether you are a leader that's struggling or you're the spouse of a leader that's maybe struggling or you're a board member and you just have a sense of like, ah, there's something underneath the surface and you're kind of on the bubble about whether or not to say something, whether to communicate.

Um, I know that's a lot, but what, what advice do you have or encouragement in situations like that of people that are feeling something that needs to be communicated? What would you say?

[00:58:05] Jerusha Clark: Good question. Tell

[00:58:06] Dr. Jeramy Clark: somebody. I mean, and, and I would say, uh, for some reason in the church, maybe it's similar. I'm, I'm 53 years old.

I was taught to ignore my heart. I was in, in, in some ways it's like the heart is desperately wicked. We just need right thinking. It's always just, of course, we need right thinking, but we also need to know what's going on in our hearts and be honest about the emotion that we're feeling. And Drew was talking about naming it to taming it, not ignoring the emotions that we have.

And if, if we can bring those to the Lord and say, Lord, I feel this way, I feel jealous, I feel angry. And we know anger is just a vehicle. It could take us somewhere healthy or somewhere bad. My encouragement is, why are you angry? Lord, can you take me? Where do you want to take me in my spiritual journey towards wholeness?

I don't wanna mess up. I don't wanna drive this car into a tree or off a cliff. This anger is, is there for a reason. What, why am I angry? I'm, I'm feeling insecure.

[00:59:10] Jerusha Clark: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:10] Dr. Jeramy Clark: Lord, why am I feeling insecure as a, as a leader? Is it because the attendance was down? Was it because I didn't get as many compliments from my sermon?

I, I'm feeling insecure, so Lord, I'm telling you, I, I feel insecure. This is the emotion I feel. How do you want me to feel?

[00:59:28] Jerusha Clark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:59:30] Dr. Jeramy Clark: This has been life changing for me. Lord. I'm, I'm frustrated, Lord. This is my emotion. How do you want me to feel? How do you want me to address this person who wrote me this nasty letter?

How do you want to deal with the bullies in my life? And Lord, who can I talk to? Who can I talk to that is a safe, trusted confidant that, that I can confide in, that can lead me towards right [01:00:00] thinking. Now, I would say in, in the counseling space, or even in coaching, you would say most people know what they should do, but they're either afraid to do it or they don't feel like they have the permission.

[01:00:11] Jerusha Clark: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:12] Dr. Jeramy Clark: It's like, Lord, what, what next step can I take that would be healthy for me to take?

[01:00:19] Jerusha Clark: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:19] Dr. Jeramy Clark: Not out of, uh, a raw, wrong emotion, but how can I, in a measured way, walk with you and, and deal with this healthfully in my life? I think those things are so important. And, and is there someone on your board that's a, a trusted confi confidant?

Uh, is there somebody in your life? Um, there are not too many people, and I think in leadership, the, uh, the higher you go, the smaller your circle is of who you can talk to. Who gets it, gets you, gets your situation and find someone that does get it.

[01:00:57] Jerusha Clark: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:58] Dr. Jeramy Clark: Because I don't wanna spend the whole hour explaining it to someone who really doesn't understand it or get it.

'cause then I'll be thinking the whole time they, well, I don't really get it. I, I need to find those people. And I need to keep them close. I need to invest in those relationships. And so if you find yourself in that scenario, in some of the things that we talked about, your check engine lights on, you're isolated, you're avoiding, maybe you're someone that typically keeps your car clean, but right now it's been filthy.

Why? Why, why notice the, the patterns that are outta sync and, and do something. Don't wait till you veer off and hit a tree.

[01:01:35] Jerusha Clark: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:35] Dr. Jeramy Clark: Because my, my guess is. There's these warning lights that are, are speaking to you and sometimes even shouting at you that we learn to ignore. We turn off and uh, maybe 'cause we don't know where to go.

And if it's as simple as going to standing stone ministry.org and hitting connect with the Shepherd,

[01:01:55] Jerusha Clark: or

[01:01:55] Dr. Jeramy Clark: if it's making that phone call today, do it. Yeah. Make that phone call. Uh, because your health is too important. You have too much resting on the, your life, your family, your calling to let another day go by without dealing with the stuff that you need to deal with.

Right?

[01:02:15] Jerusha Clark: Yeah. When you're listening, um, with discernment to God, the Holy Spirit and you're growing in your ability to, um, to. Hear your own soul, then the words that come out of your mouth when they come out of your mouth are ones that are full of light and truth, not the leaking that happens when you haven't nourished your soul.

So in conflict resolution, sometimes we have to dial back and go, oh, we see where this person was leaking. They were leaking their sadness, they were leaking their anger. They weren't really saying the words that were actually the core of what they felt. So that's why what Jeremy was saying is so important to first get, um, with the Lord and to really [01:03:00] listen to your own soul.

And then the words that you speak can be filled with his words. They, they can be his words rather than words that will either make a conflict worse or a situation escalate. Um, so, you know, it sounds. Simple. In some ways, spend time with the Lord and tell someone, but we just don't do it. And that's the thing is I, I think Jeremy's right, most of us, um, just need to do the things that we already know to do, and that will, will really be life changing.

[01:03:35] Michael Martin: Let us all be courageous. Be obedient.

[01:03:38] Jerusha Clark: Yes.

[01:03:38] Michael Martin: Take those words to heart. Take that next step. Mm-hmm. Right. Well, Jeremy, Jerusha, this was Rich. Thank you so much for this conversation, the encouragement that it is to me, and I know to, to all who are listening in the ECFA community, keep up the good work. Thank you.

Thanks, Heather. Thank you. Honored to spend the time with you.

[01:03:56] Jerusha Clark: Great time together.

[01:03:57] Michael Martin: Yeah, you too.

[01:04:01] Ryan Gordon: Thanks for joining us for the Behind the Seal podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation. We'll see you next time.