Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Go to the Coworking Values Podcast website for the free five-day email course, The Five Biggest Mistakes Coworking Community Builders Make and How to Avoid Them — peer-to-peer stories from the trenches drawn from this podcast, one practical action each day.
Welcome to Coworking Values the podcast of the European Coworking Assembly.
Each week we deep dive into one of the values of accessibility, community, openness, collaboration and sustainability. Listen in to learn how these values can make or break Coworking culture.
Bernie J Mitchell: Hello, my delicious
coworking community builders.
Sorry, I've been away eating too much
cheese cake, having a sabbatical,
whatever you wanna call it.
But we are back now and shinier than ever.
So today Thilo is our guest.
He's the co-founder of Cobot.
I cannot remember a time in this
universe when I didn't know Thilo.
He seems to be in around for ages in any
exceptionally good way, like George Burns
or Peter Ustinov he's making his way to
coworking Canada at the end of October.
It's his triumph for return
after a 10 year absence.
And the last time he was
there, it was also in Montreal.
And in this episode, Thilo and I take a
little trip down member, memory lane,
remembering when there was only about a
thousand coworking spaces in the world
and Instagram was a brand new thing.
And there was the industry, which is then
the movement and whatever that means.
And then that thing came on
called COVID, which was a turning
point for everyone inside the
industry and outside the industry.
And the other thing we talk
about here is how Cobot was
started in a coworking space.
So they had a coworking space and they
built some software to run the coworking
space, and now they are members of a
coworking space in Berlin called Work.
There's a link in the show notes to that.
And so they're a member of a coworking
space that's run on their own software.
This isn't brought to you by Cobot.
It's just a really
nice, interesting story.
And just before we get into the
show, if you head over to the
coworking values podcast.com,
where we now have a, a.
Jumping live shiny website, and
there's a five day email course
there, which is called the five
Biggest Mistakes Coworking Community
Builders Make and How to Avoid Them.
And I wanna bring your attention
to that because it is made up of
stories from this podcast, so I don't
wanna get too glamorous about it.
But it's a peer to peer kind of
stories from the trenches, how you
could learn to avoid these mistakes.
And if you.
Which I know a lot of you are, if
you get people together on a regular
basis, one of the things people always
say is, I thought it was just me.
And that email course is a kind
of find the others of coworking
mistakes and how to avoid them.
So you'll, some of you might even
recognise yourself in there, you'll
recognise the coworking spaces in there.
It was really interesting to write
and it is super useful ' cause
everyone thinks they're the only one
having that thing happen to them.
And when you find out it's
happening to other people too,
and we're all in this together.
That's the kind of spirit
you wanna bring to it.
So find the others.
I think that's enough for me.
Um, let's get into the show.
Hello folks.
It is yet another coworking values
podcast here from our luxury
studio in, um, where am I now?
Vigo and from Berlin, so you known for and
what would you like to be known for Thilo?
And you have to answer that question.
Thilo Utke: What I want to be known for.
I mean, for what I'm doing, like I
always introduce myself as still from
Cobot when you look at the name tag and
um, yeah, building that software and
providing that to spaces so that they can
run their coworking space more easily.
This is definitely what
I want to be known for.
Like that we stand behind that, that
we always improving that, that we have
been around, that we will be around,
um, and that we have coworking spaces.
Bernie J Mitchell: That's good.
How long, just to, just to force the
the give a timescale g Thilo, how long
have you been a co-founder with Cobot?
Thilo Utke: Well o officially 2010.
Bernie J Mitchell: That's, that's
when I first discovered coworking.
You know, that's when, and then
actually not when I first discovered
it, we were just saying it was,
it was in 2008 when I found Tony
and new work cities on meetup.com.
But that's my, that's, that's
what I say is my official thing.
So where were you?
was you and Alex,
Thilo Utke: Yes, it was me and Alex,
my co-founder in the beginning.
Christina or then coworker,
and then another co-founder.
So three people.
Bernie J Mitchell: That's, God,
that's a long time to do anything.
what I want to kick off with is, so
you're going to co-work in Canada in
a couple of weeks we found that post
from, when was the last time you came?
Thilo Utke: You mean Coworking Canada?
It was in 2016.
I went personally, yes.
So it's a 10 years anniversary.
Bernie J Mitchell: Oh my
Thilo Utke: The same city.
Bernie J Mitchell: about that time, so we,
we got that blog post in front of us and
I think it's entertaining and I hope that
people listening find it's entertaining.
Like what, you said as we were
looking at it before we came on,
a lot of things have aged well.
So what has aged well in now?
And I agree with you, but I wanna see
what, I want people to hear your opinion.
What, what lasted in here and what, what
be got, what got even better, like cast
and lasted really well, but what got
even better?
Thilo Utke: Yes, The, the
coworking numbers from Carsen,
from desk, me aged very well.
They already have been like a must have
in included in the conference, back
then and now, more so today, but also,
like, which I still remember was a very,
powerful speech by Tony Bpu, who was
one of the pioneers back in the days.
and he's also still around, but
like this thing, this like we are
movement, not just in industry.
It's still true.
And I think we just got more
powerful and also more grown up.
Bernie J Mitchell: What I agree with that.
Like I feel that, and I think I
feel it more than ever, but when you
say, what do you mean by powerful?
'cause that, that's gonna be
interesting to hear your answer to that.
Thilo Utke: I think in one way
coworking already succeeded.
Like when it comes to like,
how do we do work today?
Basically the model that work,
that the workplace is not something
static, but fluid has been picked up
by the real estate industry, right?
We now have flex office.
of course also Corona help with that,
that people are not satisfied anymore with
like being going to the place that their
employees subscribe to, but also the whole
expectations about a workplace, that it's
more than just the tools around it, right?
That's definitely where we succeeded.
And also building the business
around this idea, right?
Because like we live in a world
where you need resources to,
to push your ideas forward.
And we have seen some really successful,
coworking that also really successful
business or on the other way around,
really big real estate companies
really embrace the, the ideas of
coworking or also like connected.
This whole idea of okay, developing
a building, developing a place in a,
in, in a ecosystem, and making also
workplace part of that ecosystem.
Bernie J Mitchell: And what is,
what else is in that, that article?
That's because I, I love that.
Just to go back, sorry.
Is I felt from the, the, the areas of
the UK that I know the best, the COVID
and Coronavirus, it kind of forced
people to stay in their neighbourhoods
and there's more neighbourhood
coworking spaces in, you know,
London is the, is always my point of
reference 'cause it's what I know best.
And like all the coworking spaces and
there's still a lot of them there.
As you know, in, we're in zone one
and zone two and Round Old Street, but
there's like in six, five, and four.
If someone had said, I'm gonna
open a coworking space in 2016.
When was when you were
last at Coworking Canada?
Everyone would've looked
like you were mad.
but it, it, I think it's brought
people back into neighbourhoods,
not everywhere, but, you know, I, I
seek this stuff out, so I think it's
happening more than maybe it is.
But what, there was another word you said.
It's made us more powerful and.
Thilo Utke: All grown up to us.
Bernie J Mitchell: All grown up.
Yeah, let's go with that because
we both forgot what it was.
how was, so where do you
think it was in 2016?
Was it like awkward teenage years or like
if you were considering it like a child,
Thilo Utke: no, no, I think that would
be disrespectful, for the movement
to say it's like a awkward teenager.
I think it was the, you know,
forceful youth, you know, like
student protest and, big ideals
and and lots of energy to fight.
And I think now we are really in the stage
where we are a little bit more settled.
We also like got hit with reality in
some way or another, but at the same
time, also people got more successful.
They build out the place for
coworking, they push it up.
And now also more or less
some coworking spaces.
And that's also something that you
see in the space speaker is, is,
uh, now you think about like passing
on to the next generation, right?
The, this were all things that
were not existing back then
because everything was so new.
Bernie J Mitchell: Yeah.
The, Sam's Flock organisation,
the Future Leaders of Coworking.
am, I, I really feel the need for that
and it makes me, it reminds me a lot
of, when I worked in hospitality and
catering, 'cause everyone just like
turned up to get a job and there was
no, even though, you know, people have
worked in restaurants for hundreds of
years, the idea of building a career
in catering was still, if you can make,
if you can last that long and then.
When I saw that future Leaders
of Coworking and how it's helping
people think about a career path in
our industry, that was really good.
I still dunno what that career path is,
but it's, it's, it's really important
that people are talking about that at
this moment in time because I think
the, and you can definitely comment on
this and even disagreed, but I think
the community manager job is a bit like
a bit like back in 2016, it was sort of
job you get while you were at college it
was like a job in a bar or a restaurant,
but there's actually a lot more to
that role, ' cause of all the, all the
plates you have to hold at the same
time when you're a community manager.
people didn't take it as seriously
as I would've liked 'em to.
And you are welcome to
give your view on that.
So taking the community manager
role as serious as we do
nowadays is very welcome for me.
Thilo Utke: Yes.
And that's also a good, like, also like
one of the signs where I saw like growing
up and being more adult about it is
yeah, talking about like career paths
and also like having an experience and
also more influence from other industry.
But nowadays, for example, you hear a
lot about also hospitality and, and in
the beginning you were like very eager
on like differentiate yourself from hotel
and hospitality and saw as something,
okay, you don't want to align that.
But now it's much more
differentiated and you see that
you can learn from that as well.
And that depending on the space
you're running it, it can serve it.
And also, yeah, also taking cues really
like what kind of careers and like
defining roles within the community
manager that there's like basically
the communicator, the administrator,
and all these different roles.
The talk, by pauline from Coworks and
Utah, from the Japan, coworking space
and Community Manager Association.
They made this great co talk, in coworking
Europe exactly around this project of
like the roles of a community manager,
how to build a career, which was great.
And it showed like this is the
next level we are at, that we are
much more yeah, further ahead when
we have been like 10 years ago.
Bernie J Mitchell: That was years ago.
So that was, that was, so 2017, I
remember, we were at Coworking Europe in
Dublin, which was such a fantastic ride.
And we were, me and
Phil signed up to Cobot.
' cause until then, when we ran that
little coworking space in Euston, we'd
always done it on Trello and Google
Docs and thought we were amazing.
then we were sitting down in, the
corridor, and I think we were,
I'm really sure we were talking to
Amanda and Carmen and I wanted Phil
to use coworking space software.
And he did.
But also there was that session
which Hector ran, and we were all
in a room talking about software.
And then I think it was Olga, who,
I can't remember where she's from
now, but, we were all saying, oh,
we could do it in Google Docs.
she goes, I don't think, it's not
a question should you use software.
It's like, I don't think you
can possibly run a building
these days without software.
Like you are mad to even be
having this conversation.
And everyone kind of and then, and
then it went in a different direction.
And that's, that's just, I know that seems
such a long time ago that people were.
Worried about whether, so like you,
you know, there's so many things we
use software for nowadays, but even,
even 10 years ago it was a, do I really
need that, you know, kind of thing.
And not just for coworking space software.
something I want to get to because
I'm gonna, we're gonna run outta
time, is I what I really like, 'cause
I was, I followed you folks and how
can you explain how you are in work
ish, which we're definitely gonna
link to in the show notes folks,
which is my kind of coworking space.
But I just find it fascinating how you
are in a coworking space that kind of
owner managed neighbourhood coworking
space and running the software company
that supplies coworking spaces.
So you, you're kind of like the
end user and the participant in
the industry at the same time.
And coworking space software
do they use in work thilo?
Thilo Utke: Cool.
But.
Bernie J Mitchell: Oh, I thought it was
Thilo Utke: So it's
Bernie J Mitchell: go on.
Thilo Utke: it's a nice, duck
fooding experience as like, you know,
being a coworker using a software.
And then like, as we also are very focused
on the admin part, so they're being forced
to be on the member part is also like very
good to, you know, reveal blind spots.
Bernie J Mitchell: We, we call that
eating your own dog food, but, can
you, can you tell us about work ish?
Because I am, I know, I love
that kind of coworking space.
Thilo Utke: Yeah.
work is a, as you said already,
it's a neighbourhood owner
operated coworking space.
It, is, I would say a more simpler about
like a maker and creative community.
it's a big building.
They have a, like a coding school,
in it as well, which we, they kind
of share it and some smaller offices.
A nice backyard and a maker lab.
And, they're very caring.
That's, like I think how every operator
who like really owns the place right,
and sees the community, naturally is
like you care for your stuff you build.
When you see it every
day, they work out of it.
They're not there all the time.
They have some people from the community
that sometimes men or women from desk.
Bernie J Mitchell: Good catch.
They person, they person, the front
Thilo Utke: The person front desk.
Yeah, that's a good one.
and this is, yeah, and then we
feel very much at home, right?
And, we also collaborate with them
now that we like shoot something like
with some video shooting because we
found like, okay, this is some fun
to engage with, with it and also show
what we are doing with the software
and yeah, they listen to feedback and
also it makes you feel safe, right?
Because you know the people, you
know the place you're going to, and
you know, the people even like I sit
mostly in the office, so I'm definitely
one of these office tenants that
when you think about like running
a coworks back where everybody is
like, I don't engage that much.
I also don't have the time because
like most of the social events
happening at times where I have to
be at home to take care of my kids.
or like I am not a hardware person.
So the make lab for me personally, but
for example, Alex, Alex got really into
hardware, so he is enjoying the make lab.
Bernie J Mitchell: Oh, is he?
Is he like building his boat
in the Maker Lab these days?
Thilo Utke: No, it's too small for that.
But, he, he, built some other things like
mundane things like, for adjusting his
keyboard or he had his building his own
speaker, in these kind of fun projects.
This is also kind of a, so he got into.
Bernie J Mitchell: So this, this is
gonna be a bit of a on, on, on the spot
question because there's, like, you and
I, you came to stay here in Vigo and
we went to FTO together, and you kind
of have all this of the industry that
just by sitting in enough coworking
conferences over the years and then you
go and you are a resident in somewhere
or like a member like he said, I,
I don't get to go to social events
because of how it works for my kids.
And before, you know, I was a
parent, I would go to anything and
then when I was a parent, I wanted
to come home and sometimes I had
to come home and your life changes.
So it's, it's a of how I'm, I'm
gonna find a question here, Thilo.
Just gimme a second.
Like imagine you, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna have a go, go at this.
Imagine you, you were like in
20, 20 17 Thilo in work ish
versus 2026 Thilo in work ish.
Like how, how would you relate
to that space in different ways?
Thilo Utke: I mean, 2017 I
already have well parent then.
Right?
So, in, in that sense, probably it
wouldn't have changed so much in my.
Maybe, maybe the, the subjects we
talk about, like, because of course
I check in with the founders, right?
Because like we have like
the shared background.
And if, like, it would be any normal
person that when you also like, have
a meet somebody at a bar or, or, or
another event and you discover that
you have a shared background and
you meet again, you will, you know,
talk about the shared backgrounds.
the conversations shift also with
like how far you are ahead from, from
how to do things to, for example,
like how to, how to hand things over.
Like when we talk about like,
generation right handing of things over.
it's, it's not specifically to workers,
but nowadays I also find myself more often
to, to talk to coworking space owners
that yeah, you know, retire or want to
do something else, and wanna find a new
home for their space and the people.
Bernie J Mitchell: that's crazy
because there's people that
have gone through that cycle.
They opened in this blaze of glory
in like 2013, they go, oh, you know,
I don't wanna say anyone's name, but
like, oh, I, I'm looking to sell this.
I'm like, but you've only just started.
It's like, oh my God, you've
been going like 15 years now.
it's a, you know, and run
any business more than five
years is impressive, you know?
It's such a tough thing.
it kind of shows how,
how fast time has moved.
What can you, what can you say how
you folks use the spacing work?
do you all sit around
the same table together?
do you have an office or do you
have different rooms you go in?
Like how, as a team, how do you approach
Thilo Utke: That's,
Bernie J Mitchell: use of space in
Thilo Utke: that's a nice thing if you
have spaces work where we rent an office.
but at the same time, we also
have work policy so people don't
have to come to the office.
I personally like to work
from another place than home.
I just need to switch mentally also
to stay kind of healthy, to go to
workplace and leave the workplace.
And, other folks work more from home.
younger colleagues usually like to
stay at the, at the, flex desk area.
And we have an arrangement that we
can basically use to a certain degree.
the flex area members, we use the
meeting rooms right when we have events,
but also sometimes we consciously
say, oh, we need a change of scenery.
And we book a meeting room or workshop
room in another coworking space.
Bernie J Mitchell: Now there's
other coworking spaces.
I really enjoy that.
Last thing I miss about London is I
used to go to, I go to urban MBAA lot
and work, 'cause that was my base camp.
But would go to a different
coworking space every couple of days.
And the variety was,
it was really good fun.
I really miss that.
it was really interesting going from
like, impact Brixton in which was a,
in, in Brixton obviously, and it was a
very owner managed community led space.
And then being in a, a shinier space
in around Old Street and the, the
feeling and the atmosphere between both.
So just before we go, if someone's
gonna bump into you at Coworking
Canada, what do you wanna find out?
What do you want 'em to ask you?
What do you wanna, what's the
most interesting thing for you to.
Thilo Utke: I think.
Bernie J Mitchell: Start
conversations with a cowork in Canada.
Thilo Utke: think, it's still the
social aspect and the impact and.
I think also this is what, what coworking
Canada, again, will emphasise on, is
how coworking can tie in with like
the social challenges we are facing.
And, and they have not become less, they
have become more, and, and so it's good
that kind of coworking got stronger, but
also like the, the, the task that Layer
had now with yeah, the big change that
AI is bringing and also like the state
the world is in right now and people.
Being overwhelmed with everything
that is going on and also maybe a bit
fearful and concerned, I still think
as coworking, as a format and like
with a dedicated aim to bring people
together, to unite them over their work,
has become more important than ever.
So I like to talk about this,
about like what other people
think about it, what kind of ideas
they have, concrete projects.
yeah, I look, in fact, that's
what I'm really looking forward
to when I go to the conference.
Bernie J Mitchell: I think that,
like I've always looked to that
community for, so many things have
come out of those conversations
in coworking Canada the years.
The, the one that immediately springs
to mind is the whole land trusting.
And then, I learned a lot about I
indigenous and First Nations people
with Tara from Canoe Coworking,
which came out of a, coworking
Canada connection over the years
Yeah, it was 2019.
Tara came to London and we, we did a
talk at a university together about
coworking in community building.
And it was just incredible finding out
that kind of what, what an indigenous
coworking space, it operated.
Somewhere in here, there's
a, there's a podcast we did
with her, but that is great.
So the theme of coworking Canada folks is
shared futures, and it's about building
communities together, and that's the
conversation is theming the unconference
and all the, all the bits that tie
into that and live in person is Thilo.
how long are you gonna be in Montreal for?
Thilo Utke: for, for the time for the
conference, unfortunately not longer, but,
Bernie J Mitchell: Like 72 hours.
Thilo Utke: So like the day and
the before and after, right.
So that I can.
Bernie J Mitchell: Hells Teeth!
Batman!
You know, I once went to, I really
did fly from London to New Orleans
for 24 hours for Mardi Gras in the
Thilo Utke: Wow, that's intense.
Bernie J Mitchell: I worked in
a bar and I won a competition
Thilo Utke: Nice.
Bernie J Mitchell: Comfort because
I sold, I sold the most Southern
Comfort and the prize was a trip
to New Orleans for 24 hours.
And I was 19 and I was
awake for like four days.
I mean, I slept on the plane,
Thilo Utke: Yeah.
Bernie J Mitchell: it
Thilo Utke: It's what you
do when you're 19, right?
And you live to tell the tale.
Bernie J Mitchell: on the, you could
smoke on the plane, which seems, seems
such a ridiculous thing to do nowadays.
Anyway, back to the chase, where to,
so if you're gonna be at Cowork in
Canada, where else can we catch up
with you before the end of the year?
Thilo Utke: I will also be
in coworking Europe in Paris.
Bernie J Mitchell: Do you
want the same question there?
What are you, what are you
looking for in coworking?
Paris?
Thilo Utke: Mostly,
Bernie J Mitchell: Amazing
Thilo Utke: yeah, it's a nice city.
I'm mostly looking forward to,
because like it draws a wide crowd,
but also lots of veterans from the
industry, and also the wide audience.
So looking forward to that.
I also find it very challenging nowadays
because like coworking has grown and so
have the spectrum of, of, topics that
you can present and, coworking Canada
feels, faces the same challenge, right?
How do you make one conference that
keeps everybody in grade most of the time
having like all these different areas
that they can talk about and aspects.
Bernie J Mitchell: Did, was mul
itinerary one of your spaces?
Thilo Utke: I'm what?
Bernie J Mitchell: Ary the COPA folks.
Thilo Utke: Oh, this is so long ago.
Bernie J Mitchell: Do you
remember that coworking space
Thilo Utke: of course.
Very lovely people.
Also, very, very
beautiful coworking space.
very creative, very wild, and
were the wild days of coworking.
Bernie J Mitchell: yeah, so as part of
We Share, and that's, that's how I ended
up coming to coworking Europe in 2014.
We used to spend a lot, that's probably
the, that's probably the coworking
space I've been to the most in, Paris.
And I, I absolutely loved it.
And I met Stefan there and
we did, we share Fest and he
said, oh, well you come to
Cowork in Europe in 2014.
And that's how, that's how we got there.
But place was that, that
place was something else.
Anyway.
Enough reminiscing.
where's the best place to keep up
with you and find you online and
Thilo Utke: I mean,
Bernie J Mitchell: do your travels?
Thilo Utke: I mean that is LinkedIn.
Like if you're interested
about coworking and what we are
doing, follow me on LinkedIn.
Bernie J Mitchell: They
are everyone's interested.
Who's this?
Everyone who listens to this is
interesting about coworking and,
are you taking Rosie to coworking
Thilo Utke: Yes.
Bernie J Mitchell: I heard so
she's, I think Thilo, like, she's
even more important to the cobot
team than you are these days.
Thilo Utke: Oh
Bernie J Mitchell: kicks
out some exceptional
Thilo Utke: yeah, she's definitely
like, she's the one who writes all a
lot of content and like, we would so
be so screwed about her because like,
I'm, I'm not the, not the best writer.
Bernie J Mitchell: I am like just feeling
very threatened by what she puts online.
I think I'm, you know, I like writing,
but when she puts something out,
I have to go and see my therapist.
It's
so good.
Thilo Utke: it's the next generation.
It's the next generation,
it's the kind of like what she does with
video and she enjoys to doing that a lot.
And I think we also will have some
more great content coming up on the
front because of course if you have
new people, new generation, new
ideas, and that's also, yeah, keeps
yourself a little bit on your toes.
You don't get too comfortable.
Bernie J Mitchell: That is
more that, I mean, all joking
aside, that's more important.
That's why, that's why I hang around
urban NBA so much so, uh, keeps me,
keeps me on my toes Anyway, ladies
and gentlemen, thank you very much
for your time and attention today.
Go to coworking values podcast.com
and there's essays there.
There's email lists.
There's the five biggest mistakes
that Coworking Community Builders
make when they open their coworking
space and how to avoid them, which is
a five day email course which is made
up from stories like the ones TLO and
I have been sharing and also people
who have been guests on this podcast.
And I think that's about it all.
So wherever we are in the
world, be careful out there.
It is A Jungle.
Say goodbye tlo.
Thilo Utke: Goodbye, Bernie.
It was a pleasure.