F*ck Fear with Christine Spratley: Living Like a Head Bitch In Charge | "E" is for Empathize — Turning Validation into Shared Momentum

Mastering Empathy & Communication: Final Episode of LUVE Series with Christine Spratley

In this concluding episode of 'F*ck Fear with Christine Spratley,' Christine and Joe delve into the importance of empathy in both personal and professional settings. They review the LUVE method—Listen, Understand, Validate, and Empathize—focusing on the final segment, Empathy. This episode explores different types of empathy, the physiological and psychological benefits of empathetic communication, and the challenges of maintaining empathy in relationships and work environments. Tune in for insightful discussions, practical tips, and a wrap-up of the transformative LUVE series.

00:00 Introduction to F*ck Fear with Christine Spratley
00:56 Understanding Communication in Conflicts
02:01 The Importance of Empathy
03:24 Different Types of Empathy
08:52 Empathy in Business and Personal Relationships
18:27 Challenges and Misconceptions of Empathy
22:04 Empathy Fatigue and Moving Forward
27:35 Exploring Empathy in Relationships
28:26 Addressing One-Sided Empathy
29:11 Personal Story: Empathy at Work
31:27 Communicating Empathy Needs
35:02 Empathy in Different Contexts
39:00 Empathy as a Limited Resource
43:37 Concluding Thoughts on Empathy

Creators and Guests

Host

Christine (HBIC) Spratley

Dynamic Public Speaker | Change Catalyst | Career Navigation Coach

What is F*ck Fear with Christine Spratley: Living Like a Head Bitch In Charge ?

This podcast is for anyone who wants to live like an HBIC—or lives with, works with, marries, dates, or is raising one. Let’s be real: being a Head Bitch in Charge is messy, bold, and unapologetically badass. This is not a guidebook—it’s a pantry.

My guests and I will share the ingredients that we use—what’s worked and what’s failed—as we say “fuck fear” and take action to live a fulfilled life. We cover real-life hacks and deep philosophical pillars to navigate the chaos of everyday life—where some days, my only accomplishment is having a bra on and my teeth brushed.

We’re tackling the daily shit women navigate, from workplace politics to relationships, raising kids, and building careers, all with humor, audacity, and zero filters.

So, tune in—tell your friends, and even your enemies. This isn’t about aging with grace—it’s about aging with mischief, audacity, and a damn good story to tell.

38 - FFear - “E is for Empathize — Turning Validation into Shared Momentum
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Christine Spratley: [00:00:00] Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Fuck Fear with Christine Spratley. This is our last segment of, um, LUVE and in that segment we are in this segment, in that segment, L-V-L-U-V-E. Love. Um, we talk about the communication [00:01:00] of when you're hearing and you're in a discussion or an argument or.

Really any sort of dialogue that may have some conflict. I guess it might be a way to put it, Joe, and, um, how to interact with that person, both in a professional setting, but also in, you know, in a personal setting. But, and so we went through, you know, l listen, you understand v validate. And today being the last segment we are in, um, e we're empathize.

But before we do that, we're gonna do our immunity shots. 'cause God, I need this. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm dragging today. All right. Oh, ready? There we go. Yep. Go.

Oh, that a lot better. Ooh, wow. . Oh, Lord. Um, all right, [00:02:00] here we go. Trigger. So ladies and gentlemen, we're gonna talk about, um, empathize and how do we get from validate to, to empathize because Joe, you mentioned the other day in our last episode how the l and the U.

Lead you to the V. Like you can't get to a validation point if you don't listen, get the data, understand their logic. You can't validate their reality at that point. Um, so that leads us to empathize. So if you don't have any of these other elements, you're not going to be able to empathize. Um, so. W what it does is empathy, basically, you know, validation claims, calms okay.

The person you know, it says, okay, I get it. I get where you're coming from. But empathy is the action of connecting. This is kind of, and when I was getting ready to do this, I thought, 'cause I've thought about. [00:03:00] Your comment the other day of, what are we here for? You know, why are we having this conversation?

What is the, what is the reason? What did you, and it's to connect with the other person. And so along the, listen, we're listening. We're not saying anything. We're not doing anything. We're understanding. Okay, I see where you're coming from. I'm, again, stepping into ears. Then we're validating and now we're going into, okay, I can feel this.

Um, you know, your validation is your feelings make sense, and empathy is more around the perspective of literally, um, getting into, you can do it three ways you can do it. Cognitive empathy, um, effective empathy, or compassionate empathy. And I really like that because I thought empathy was solely. Um, I had to feel that way.

Like I had to really resonate with that feeling [00:04:00] in me, and we talked about this off the air. There's a lot of situations where there, that's just not humanly possible for me to feel that. Effective emotional or effective emotional empathy. Um, where my body mirrors theirs in the moment. There are times when I can, um, you know, but there's also the cognitive empathy and the empathetic and compassionate, which is more empathetic concern.

And I thought this was really kind of cool because the, the definition, 'cause you know, we talked about this the other day too. You know, we kind of. Think about what words really mean by define not what we think they mean. And the definition is the ability to understand and share feelings with another.

And it, it basically, you know. [00:05:00] I can walk beside you and feel this without hijacking you in your shoes. You know, like, I don't need to take over the conversation. I don't need to, but I'm gonna walk right with you in that emotion. And cognitive is, you know, more of, it's more of the validation of it, but it's more of okay.

Yeah, I can, I get that. I get that. Um, I'm stepping into your perspective and. The situation makes sense and it's more of kind of like the validation of it, but it is still empathy. The A affective is, is, oh my God, I feel that not in my stomach too. Like, I literally feel that way, or I get, um, when someone I care about gets hurt and they, I see them in pain, something like that.

Um, and then the compassion is, you know, let's, let's kind of do something together [00:06:00] to calm them. It's like taking a compassionate action, which I thought was really good. 'cause I did, I did look up and kind of go into, um. Compassion versus empathy and, um, what that was versus what I thought it was. Um, and compassion really is more, um, about the other person's wellbeing, you know, perfor kind of performing it from that perspective.

Um. I thought that was interesting because empathy is a way to get to a compassionate state and it, you know, it's warm concern plus action, if that makes sense. Um, it allows me to have kind of like the other [00:07:00] person's wellbeing in mind. Then showing, Hey, yeah, I can, I can see how that hurts you. Or I can see now what can I do?

Can we set some boundaries? Um, you know, and, and that I think is really incredible when I can get to that state where it is, again, your wellbeing is paramount. And not just from the listening part is what's your greatest challenge? But the emotional part. Does that make sense Joe? 'cause we've talked a lot about the challenge your, your greatest challenge, but then we flip into this emotional empathy part of being compassionate about, gosh, that's your challenge.

Okay, how do we get there? How do I make this easier for you? How do we tap into resolving that emotion? Does that make any sense? Yeah, I think so. It seems like. They serve slightly different functions. Mm-hmm. But it's, it [00:08:00] could be bad to mess them up because I think that one of them has like, you're feeling with them and almost like a sense of ownership mm-hmm.

Which can get tiring. Mm-hmm. And one almost feels like you're just, you're understanding what they're going through, but not taking that on. Yeah. Well, and I think for, 'cause I did look up, there's this phrase that's used and it's not a, a. A kind of a psych psychological model or anything, but it is called, um, toxic empathy, and we'll get into that.

But, and it's, and again, it's not, um, a, a phrase, but there are other phrases that people are using, using it to align with. And that's what you're talking about where you're kind of have that empathetic fatigue. Um, but this is one of the reasons why I thought was interesting is that.

Emotional intelligence. Um, I think it's one, well, empathy is part of, it's one of the items [00:09:00] under emotional intelligence that helps score how you score on emotional intelligence, your ability to. To, um, get into that other person's shoes and walk with them with that, um, with that feeling. But this is why empathy matters in a, in a conversation.

What happens? 'cause we talked about this with validation. What happens to the other person when, when they experience empathy? Um. And it calms, um, it physi it. The physiology in our body calms us. Um, it, it, our heart rhythm studies, um, we, you know, it's the hormonal buffer. Um, the oxytocin, the oxy, ah, oxytocin cut cortisol, cortisol, um, during stress tests.

So it's like, it, it lowers everything. And again, if you, if you think about what we're doing. We're listening, there's no action really on our part [00:10:00] to ignite the situation or add gasoline to the fire. We're understanding, again, there's, we're, we're pausing this, we're putting our advice monster into check, and then three, we're validating.

So again, we talked about those physical, physiological, um, things that happen to the body and the way it calms and, and then we get to this and again. It cuts it down and it, and it slows us down. Um, so all of what we're doing instead of adding gasoline to the fire where we give the quickest wrong answer.

Or reach the answer that is not even the right question. We're giving advice or we're, you know, feeling defensive. We are adding fire fuel to the fire. We're not doing any of that. We're actually literally calming this person down. And sometimes it's calming me down. And then the other thing is, we talked about this is it again reinforces that there's no threat [00:11:00] here.

And I thought this was. Kind of taken me aback is because when I was doing this, the word threat came up a lot. And when I'm having a conversation with somebody, I thought about this as like, okay, well I'm having a conversation with, um, a friendship or something that's a little stressful. I never, I very seldom go, are they threatened right now?

Like, like is, and again, we think of threat. Ooh. But it can be these little micro things that build up. And so it's like, hmm, I just never thought about that from this perspective. But if I'm continually calming and going, Hey, and everything's safe, there's no threat here. That's a pretty powerful thing to do.

But I don't know how many, and, and again, listeners, you may, I just thought it was really interesting to, to see another person talking to me in a. A conversation that was [00:12:00] even low stakes conversations. But you know how sometimes we'll be talking and that conversation shifts? Like you just feel that energy shift.

Mm-hmm. I don't ever go, I may notice a shift, but I don't typically go, oh, I wonder if they're threatened. I wonder if now they're, if they feel a little bit different, I typically go, Ooh, I don't what's going on. It's about me. You know what? And, and, and so I thought that was a great way to. Look at a conversation and go, huh, I wonder if, I wonder if they feel threatened.

I wonder if there's a threat. And, um, but again, this is why it matters because if there is, and they're acting and reacting from that, or if I am, then it allows basically me to again, validate and then go into, Hey, there's no threat. I get this. We're gonna make this, we're gonna figure out how to get this feeling better than what you're going now.

Um, it's kind of like [00:13:00] your, your vagus nerve. And from what I read, and again, as you can tell, as I'm mumbling, stumbling through this, this is one I had RIA on, I'd like to have RIA on. Um, but from what I, from what I gather and what I. I have studied for this episode and I've actually read a lot, which is scary or listened to a lot 'cause I listen to everything on audio.

Um, but the vagus nerve is basically going chill. All good here, safe. Now let's think, and when we get to that point. Then we can start to have a conversation about changing a perspective or a point of view or something like that. Because again, there, when I am in that mode of, okay, I'm good, I'm good, I am more likely to be open to you and to listen to you and to see what's going on with you or to consider your point of view.[00:14:00]

Let alone hear it. And so I thought that was interesting because it's almost like the whole idea of LUVE and empathy is really about understanding where that person's coming from and then letting them know that that's okay, and then finally going, it's safe here. Now we can have a conversation about just what, what we need to take place or in, in difficult conversations.

But that's why I think it's so important is all the things that it does from both a trust and disclosure standpoint, from a, um, the physiology of our body and that works. But then, because I know people, um, some people listen to this podcast for business stuff. And, you know, the numbers are just crazy. You know, the numbers of impact on business, and I know this from working in, in my [00:15:00] background in Big four, but, um, there's, there's tons of studies out there and I'll, I'll give them the studies that I pulling these numbers from.

But, um, you know, this is one that caught me and this was done, um, by an old, by my old firm, ey. Um, and it was an empathy and business survey that they did in 2023. And I want you to 'cause everybody and, and why it was margin, margin, margin, margin and margin for those that dunno is basically your profit.

It's, it's, it's basically the top, you know, it's like after everything gets done, it's what you go home with and, and, and again, we want a margin and I don't know anybody in business who doesn't like a good fat margin, you know? Um. 87% of workers say mutual empathy, boost efficiency, and one of the biggest things that you get with margin to [00:16:00] generate margin is efficiency.

And that means in doing it and not having to redo it because it's. It is basically, you know, on a rates and hours, you can get it done, get it done right, and you turn it now, and then you can go on and do more and more.

But again, I thought that 87%

of people in, in that, in that study said, yeah, mutual empathy boosts efficiency. You know, senior leaders, empathy, 76% engagement, um, 20 or 62% creativity, um, is looked for. And that's a catalyst, um, study and done in 2021. I mean, that is what they're looking for in senior leaders is empathy. So I think, and we've all been in rooms where we've seen the lack of empathy.

And what that does, not only to that [00:17:00] person, but to the rest of the room in business and the lack of, um, 'cause it not only the, and this is something I want to we'll go into 'cause we're gonna talk about this specifically for women, but when we have an experience, we tend to take that experience with us when we leave.

So if I have an, if I am, if I'm not empathetic to someone and I shut them down, shut them out. Um, and I don't continue on with saying, Hey, this is safe. Now we can think, now you don't have to be on defensive. When do they ever get outta that state? If I continually do that? 'cause they take it with them.

They remember, oh, this is how I interact with Christine. It wasn't quite safe. Um, and I, I.

I know, I remember, you know, there I have a coffee mug that says I don't [00:18:00] hold grudges. I just remember facts and and so if I'm remembering the fact that there was no empathy here, there was, this is not cool, this is not safe. I am less likely to engage. Not only then, but the next time. And the next time, or I'm gonna engage from a defensive posture, um, or a protective posture in business.

And in relationships. And I think women, um, there was a study done by McKenzie where women, women felt that they carry disproportionate emotional labor, yet are rarely rewarded for it. In business, and I've seen it. I have so seen it. I've seen, I've seen some of the women on my teams carry the emotional accountability, the emotional, and [00:19:00] I'm not saying that it's that, it's that we have to, but I'm saying I'm, they're the only ones bringing it together to make it a safe space for everybody.

And they do all that work. But yet. They don't, you know, you often hear women go or people describe, oh, mom was the glue of the family. Mom was, you know, mom just figured it out, made. If you walk into some of these rooms and businesses, that's what you see. You see the emotional safety net being prepared and laid out by women.

But that is not something, and again, people call it emotional intelligence, but they tend to not think about the emotional safety net of the group. And reward that financially. Um, there's also, 'cause I looked at women, um, empathy in women and the lack of, um, the under validation and therefore of a woman's emotion.

And then also the impact [00:20:00] of that. If they don't validate it and they can't get there and they can't see that logic in that, then they can't empathize. And how much, um. There's a pain study done by Yale that, um, basically showed that women, um, are, are basically labeled over emotional. So identical emotions, um, by this study showed that identical emotions, um, labeled, you know, expressions. Um, we're labeled over emotional women, but not in men. So again, it's this, Hey, no, you're not good. Your, your feeling is not good and therefore this is not a safe space for you. Um, and what's interesting is that in, in the pain study, um, it showed that women were, um, undertreated because of that.

And we've talked about that before. We've talked about those numbers. So again, [00:21:00] it's, it seeps out into society and I, I, I remember someone very close to me going, I can't, I cannot empathize with you. And I was like, well, no, that's a choice because it doesn't have to mean that again, you feel it, but you can show compassionate empathy with me.

You can say, okay, yeah. What do I wanna do about that? Like how do I, how do I make this, um, easier for you to change that emotion? I see that emotion. Ooh. You know, let's, let's do something about that. [00:22:00] one of the things that I'm also experiencing is trying to, what you talked about earlier, about running on empty with empathy when you over, when you over not.

When you overextend, I will call it. And again, this was talked about in, um, you know, they call it toxic empathy and, but it's not a true, um, di psychology. I don't know what you call that. I. Um, but it's basically, it is empathetic distress or fatigue. That's kind of like the established research term or compassion fatigue.

And you over identify with others', pains, emotional, um, exhaustion, withdrawal or burnout. And what this does is that I've noticed it when I trauma bond with somebody. [00:23:00] Um, or I tend to, um, use empathy and then I, I get to the, just, I'm gonna feel this with you and I don't take it anywhere with anybody else, um, in the sense of, let's make this better.

Let's, let's get this so we don't feel this way again, let's, you know, like, how do we do this? Like, what do you want to go, where do you wanna go from here? Kind of thing. And I thought that was really interesting because like any action, you know, even, even the sunburns if you get too much of it, you know, um, and so it's like I need to understand that my empathy is, is the next step.

But it doesn't stop with, I just feel your feelings. And I, and I like that because. I'm all about what [00:24:00] comes next, what comes next in the conversation, what comes next in the, um, how do we make this better? How do we, how do we, how, um, what actions do I need to take to make me feel better? Um, but I just, I think that really when I empathize with somebody, it's turning the validation into a shared moment.

Um, you know, it, it's, I may show and say, God, tell me more about how you feel. What part hits you the hardest? Um, I, I feel concerned too. Let's, let's see what our options are. Um, you know, if I've sent you something and, and this happens in business all the time, where I would, I would totally blindside my staff, my team, my staff.

I never had staff, if anybody. They, I worked for them. They were, they were that good. Um, [00:25:00] but I would blindside them with something and I didn't think I blindsided and I was like, but I learned to go, oh, I see. That's how, how you feel. You feel really blindsided. Let's work on this tomorrow. Let's do the deck tomorrow.

Let's you know, because again, it's, it's that supportive touch of the emotion. Not just understanding it. Not just validating it and saying, yes, I see this emotion that you're having, but then it's this, how am I going to show up and show you that this is safe? And it turns kind of like the conversation of me into an, into an US and, you know, me versus us and you and, um, it's then us versus the problem or the challenge, um, that.

I, I really like because it makes sense. I mean, love makes sense and it makes sense to end on empathy. [00:26:00] Um, because it, it's a way for me to show whether that be in business or whatever, that everything that I've done, the listened, I've got the data. I do understand. I've stepped into your logic. I validate your feelings, and now I'm gonna empathize with you.

And now I'm going to show you. That I listened, understand, and validated, and I'm gonna show you that your, your feelings have purpose and meaning to me because I'm gonna do something about that to take it forward. Um, so I don't know. I, I thought this was a really great way to wrap it up because again, it changes the purpose of the conversation for me.

And you know, whether it's, how do I do this or like you're in an argument with your wife or something, I think, or your husband most, most of my later readers or your kids, or your friend, or, [00:27:00] well, whoever. Again, it changes the reason why we're having this conversation. I. And it changes my purpose for being in this conversation.

My purpose is not to tell control, educate, save, show you the right way to do it, you know? And I think of how much more I know about interactions today that if I would've known it coming up in business. And, um, instead of just buck up and shut up or shut up and buck up, or even in relationships, I don't think, you know, some things would've changed, others wouldn't have.

But this gives me options for the dialogue to change and the relationship to change. When I show empathy and I go, okay, [00:28:00] all right, I get this. Now I can see that God, that hit me too. How can we, how can we not make that happen again? And. This has been a real thought provoking for me. I hope it has been for, for my audience.

Joe, are are you done with this? No, I've been enjoying it. Um, I was gonna ask, 'cause I, go ahead. I don't wanna open up a whole new wing stuff. No, let's open up a whole new wing. We, I think I'm gonna ask a question and I, and I think I have my answer. Okay. So what do you do for the person that says, all right.

But I, I'm the person that gives empathy that say it's a another person in a relationship and I never get it back. Okay. Is that being said to you? No, no, no, no, no, no. I did, I I meant there Basically what you're saying is someone comes up and says, you, you never give me empathy. No. I think what happens is you, one person on one side of the relationship might try their best to practice these things and get to empathy regularly, but is frustrated because it's not reciprocated.[00:29:00]

Oh yeah. What do you do in that situation? Right. Are you the person not giving that that is perceived as not giving empathy or are you the person that is perceived as giving empathy? Either one. Okay. Well if I'm the person perceived as not giving empathy, and that's voice to me and I will tell you that, um, I'll tell you a real honest story.

God, I don't like this story 'cause it's a real bugger of a one. Um, I, and I may have said it on this show, I don't know, but, um, I was, one of my last places that I worked at, I got a call or I had a call with a person. This person had pretty much sent me some fuck you emails and, um, and, and it worked on my, on a team and, um, I, you know, the emails just weren't to me.

And basically I got him on the phone. I was like, Hey, what, what's going on? And this person said, I don't feel psychologically safe with you. I went, fuck. [00:30:00] Um, that is not something that ever crossed my mind. Um, and I really, again, immediately it hit and, and um, so obviously they didn't think I showed empathy.

They probably didn't show any sort of listening, understanding, you know, and it was really interesting. Very interesting conversation. 'cause I was like, so I was like, okay, well can you tell me what I've done? Or can you, and again, I would, I tried to handle it as best I could. Um, I didn't yell or anything.

I just said, well, you know, what can I do differently? Um, and this person said, I don't wanna work with you. And I was like, okay, I understand that. All right, I'll. I'll address it with the partners on, on the team. Either get me removed or you removed. And actually it was kind of good 'cause I didn't, I didn't really, anyway, it doesn't matter.

I liked, I didn't like being on the project because I was working on with that person anyway. So when I was like, okay, I'll remove myself. But the the point [00:31:00] was is they didn't see it. They didn't, but they voiced it. And so when you're on the non receiving side of empathy. It's just like anything else. You voice it and you say, Hey, and, and, and if that per, and if you want, that person said, no, I'm not gonna have any more interaction with you.

And we didn't. Okay. So that's an option. You get the information and then you pivot and adjust and change, but you voice it. And if it's someone that you want to continue to have a relationship with, um, then you voice it and then you figure out what empathy looks like for you. You tell them, this is what empathy looks like for me.

This is how I want you to show up. I think that is one of the biggest things that I have learned is to communicate what I need, not in terms of emotionally available. Okay, what the fuck does that look like in practice? How do I want it to be? And then I tell [00:32:00] 'em, and then we try it out. And if they don't wanna do it, then they won't do it.

But I've got to, or I get to communicate. I'm not receiving this. I don't believe I'm receiving this. Um, and then I tell you now, if, if you're on the other side of that where you're being told that and you're like, I don't understand. 'cause this is again, going back to my work. I, um, I called some people up and it was funny 'cause I called up one, one guy that and old school and he goes, what the.

S psychological safety. Fuck that they need to fucking get their shit done. What the hell? I mean, like literally so boom, boom, boom, boom. And I was like, okay, well that's, that's, that's not kind of where I was going, but all right. Thank you for the Yeah, add a girl and they're fucked up. It's, it's them and not you.

But, so I ended up calling a team member who's underneath me that I have a really, I mean, we've been through war together and, and we've talked a lot and this person gave me. [00:33:00] Example. And he said, 'cause I said, I leave my door open. I tell people, Hey, this is, you know, like I'm, I'm an open book. Hey, is there something?

And he said to me, and I thought this was really interesting, he says, some people can't tell you, they don't have it within them to say I'm uncomfortable. And he gave me an example in his life and he said, so, and sometimes anything you do, it's not about you, it's about all of their shit. But he said sometimes what you can do.

Because I said I don't wanna not be able to do anything. 'cause there are people on my team that I want on my team, and if I'm pissing them off or I'm not showing empathy and they're not getting it from me, I don't want me to, I don't want them to just feel what I'm taking. And so what he said, which I thought was, and I used it a lot, is he said, well.

Because, you know, I cuss, go figure, I cussed at work and everybody basically got to a point on my teams what that was. [00:34:00] If I wasn't using some foul language in our conversation and I got real quiet and used very technical terms, they, they got worried 'cause they knew shit was either hitting the fan, you know, like I was real tied in.

Um, but he said, ask him, does this make you feel uncomfortable or is this. Showing like, are, does this help how you feel? Does it, does it validate? Does it make you feel like you're, like, I'm giving you empathy. Um, and those are really weird conversations to have at work. Hey, am am I on target here? Like, will this help you seem to be upset because of this?

Will it help if we moved this deadline or if I said this different ways? Um, I used to have. And again, it was me taking action and inquiring what does empathy look like for you? And what was empathy? How do [00:35:00] I help you not feel that way? Um, in, and this was work Now in a relationship where I've been at times where there was no empathy.

It was, um. I, I got, I got a chance to pivot. I mean, you don't go to a, well, a dry, well looking for water.

I think the, the, the magic can happen is when you have a person who doesn't believe that they're giving empathy and a person who does okay, because there's that, there's that, oh my God, I'm not getting it, but I, and I want it. And you're going, well, I'm giving it to you, dammit. But then because you care and 'cause you love, you get to go, okay, well this is how I think I'm giving it.

And they're going, yeah, that's not the, that's not the G spot, babe. You know, this is, this is how I wanna receive it. Um, does that make, I mean, that's my answer. I don't if it makes sense. I think that makes sense. I think it's like what you're, what I heard you saying is it feels like, almost like empathy is like really [00:36:00] close to the idea of love.

And like we, people have different love languages. Like you can be trying to show love to somebody. Like, Nope, that's it. That's not, you're, you're missing that, that's helping me out at all. Yeah. And again, the the three, the three is, there's one that's cognitive, like, okay. And then, and there's, there's the others, you know, the affective where it's more, Ooh, God.

Yeah, I feel that. Ooh, that, that, and you start describing that and you can see that in people's faces. You're like, oh yeah. And then you kind of bond there. Um, so yeah, I think it is again, so he could be looking for a different kind of empathy. Yeah. When you are displaying or trying to display, or maybe you just don't have any empathy at all.

Yeah. Right. You're just like, fuck you. I don't really give a shit. Um, I, I think so, because no one that's, we talk about pantry here. This is all can be in our pantry, but every human being we interact with and we go with, we have to figure out how much of this and what type of this and what kind of fry.

You know, like [00:37:00] all of these ingredients are different. And so in your pantry, when you're dealing with somebody in a relationship, I mean the relationship you have. With a friend that you were five years ago is going to be different, even if it's still that same friendship than you have today. So again, it's all, you're always baking a different type of cake.

These are just ingredients and you go get to, that's the great thing about communication is you get to go, how's that taste? And like, nah, nah. Too much salt. You know? And again, I think that's one of the best things about relationships that allow that is I'm not coming. I'm not coming from a, from a standpoint of I have to fix them, I have to control them, I have to educate them.

I'm just coming from a standpoint of, I, I care, I care about you as a human. I care about you as my friend. I care about you as my wife, auntie, boyfriend, you know, all that stuff. And therefore, I'm going to [00:38:00] give you feedback about how the, how this cake tastes and tell you what ingredients and the amounts that I want.

And then if I care enough about you, I'm going to bake the cake differently. If I don't, I'm not. And I think that's real hard for people to go deal with is when they look at somebody and they go and they express that. And again, that toxic empathy where we give them more empathy and they don't give anything back.

And we use that as kind of like an enabler of bullshit behavior. Oh, they'll get it. Now people treat you the way they feel about you. So have you read that book? Um, switch? That was one of the principles in the book, was about how self-control is a limited resource. Mm-hmm. And like you start with your day with a certain amount.

And so, which kind of makes sense throughout the day if you, if you use all your self-control and then it's the end of the day and you need some and you blow it. [00:39:00] Um, do you think that empathy can be kind of an exhaustible resource? I think it can be, well for me, um, empathy gets, gets short for me when I don't take care of myself, when I got shit going on and when I'm also in relationships.

Um, that again, it's not so much that it's an exhaustive resource, but it's just like, yeah, I don't, I don't have that for you anymore. You don't, you, you don't get it anymore from me. And so, um, I, I like to be in reciprocal relationships. They don't always have to be 50 50. I mean, that's just not, but it's reciprocal.

This ebb and this flow, that's not the balance. It's an ebb and a flow. It's a rhythm. But if I'm not getting you, you can't pour from an empty cup. [00:40:00] And also, you know, I don't. My empathy, if you don't give me any back or if you're taking, taking, taking what, what's this really about? What's the real issue here?

You know? Yeah. I think there's some situations where I can think of like work situations or even relationships that's like, oh, this is not good. We, we should just pull the plug on this. We don't need to be friends, you know? No, it is, and I think that's one of the things where in empathy, where you go, Ooh, you feel that way?

Like with this kid, he felt that way and he was like, no, we're done. And it was actually probably a really good thing for a lot of reasons. One. I didn't, I didn't like him working on my projects too. It was just always this conflict. So if you're not gonna be able to make it better, you know? Yeah. [00:41:00] They say, I remember one of the, in my past life, one of the, um, they were doing a reorg, so basically they were letting people go and um, they were like, well, we're just gonna give them an opportunity to find other employment opportunities.

Yeah. Release them into their next job or whatever phrases. Yeah. I'm just, you know, setting you free to go find your next wife. You know, um, but I, I don't,

I don't necessarily need to love someone, and that means all of it. That's a choice that I make when I show up in that. And empathy is part of the LUVE. And if I choose not to. Um, typically it's because that relationship is not worth it to me. So my empathy, I have lots of it when I'm centered and stuff, but when I'm running short, [00:42:00] I'm gonna give it a little bit less to things that give less to me.

But. Most of the time I can give empathy and, and this may come across really, hey, tit for tat and all that shit. But most of the time I don't have a problem giving empathy when I get out of the way, when I'm not trying to defend or anything. But if it's upside down, why am I spending this? You know, why am I throwing, like they say, throwing good money after bad.

Why? What, what's going on here? What's the purpose of this relationship?

And if it's just to maintain someone else else's ego emotions or anything like that. Yeah, I'm, I got, there are other people. I'd rather work on this 'cause it does take work. I mean, shit, think about it. If we listen and not respond, that means I gotta shut up. That takes a lot of work. If I'm putting my advice monster and trying to understand, well, how the hell did they [00:43:00] get here?

How does two plus two equal seven? The fuck? Using up all your self-control. Yeah. But again, that flows when there's no, when I, when I care about that person and that person cares about me because there's that, oh yeah, it's worth it. And again, it's funny, I look. Listening to that crucial conversations the other day, and part of it is they're, they're like, if you're having the conversation more than the same conversation, more than once you're having the, you're, you're, you're tackling the wrong problem.

And so it's like, why are we tackling the same problem over and over? Maybe, maybe we should disband. Um, um, but I have really enjoyed this. Um, I think that. This has been a good place for me to be when I approach my conversations, um, to really love someone to listen to, not to respond, to understand and step into their logic of how they got there, to [00:44:00] validate, Hey, you know, I see that you can do that from that point of view.

And then basically how to empathize. Okay. That's how you feel. All right, let's, let's figure this out. And again, then we get to the point of, all right, let's figure this out. How do you feel differently? How do I feel differently and how do we make it going forward? Um, I don't know. It's really hard to do this sometimes, well, sometimes a lot of times, but it makes my relationships meaningful.

And I'll also tell you this, my relationship size have shrunk because I don't. Need. You know, you were saying self-control and you only have so much during the day. I like it. You've seen this is my last flying. Fuck. You know? Yeah. That's kind of, you know, you only have so many fucks to give and they must be earned.

And that's kind of where [00:45:00] I'm at with relationships nowadays. And so when I practice, 'cause it does take practice and it does take energy. And to show love and to give love, not to, not just to myself, but to others. I kind of have to give a shit. And if I don't give a shit, then I need to go, why are we having this relationship?

You know, sometimes it's just transactional relationship. Other times, why am I in this really deep marred relationship and. Why do I care if it's not good? And I, and it's so hard and takes up so much energy to, to do it. So I am really, really grateful to have people in my life that practice this, that do love me, um, and I'm learning how to love myself.

And again, empathy on myself is okay. You feel this way. All right. What are we gonna do about it? Girl? [00:46:00] How do we not do this? How do we show up differently? How do we do this differently? Um. So it's, it's, it's interesting. So this is the conclusion of it. I hope that you've had a great journey with this and, um, we're gonna do some fun ones next week and, um, they're gonna be funny.

And then we're gonna come back and do a series on crucial conversations. So, ladies, gentlemen, um, Annette, until next time, tubs. [00:47:00]