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Welcome to "Connections," the podcast that bridges the gap between addiction and mental health through the prism of policy and practice. Join the hosts, Morgan Coyner and Sarah Howe, as they unravel the intricate connections within the world of addiction. In each episode, they dive deep into the intersection of prevention and recovery.
Cj Full Episode_1_1
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[00:00:00] Welcome to Connections, the podcast from addiction professionals of North Carolina, where we explore the nuances of addiction and mental health through the lens of policy and practice. We're your hosts, Sarah Howe and Morgan Koiner, and we're here to help you see how it all connects. Today on the podcast, we have Dr.
Dominique Clemens James, more affectionately known as Dr. CJ. She is an assistant professor in the Addiction and Rehabilitation Studies Department at ECU. Dr. CJ, thank you for joining us. A pleasure to be here. We are excited to chat with you today about some of the research that you're doing in our field and would love to just start off the conversation.
Can you give us just a little bit of an overview of what your research is and how you got interested in that topic? Absolutely. Absolutely. So, before I was an academic, I was a coordinator for collegiate [00:01:00] recovery program on the North Carolina state university and it just so happens. They were the first, um, historically black college.
To have an established and maintain a collegiate recovery program. Um, so I was kind of history in the making and didn't know it. And then I just started noticing a lot of differences between how we did things on our campus versus what, you know, other collegiate recovery programs are doing at predominantly white institutions, PWIs.
Um, and I. Just switched over to academia because I think that there is more to it than just kind of being at right place, right time, or, you know, looking like each other in order to engage black college students because the P. W. I. Campus programs were having such a huge problem with that. And so my research actually focuses on highlighting and finding out what are the key components of, um, H.
B. C. C. R. C. S. So that then we can glean, okay, well, these are the key things that engage or attract black college students to addiction recovery support [00:02:00] services. Um, this is what we need to replicate on every campus. Nice. So, in terms of the campus administration and looking at this work, you said you went from being an administrator, being a coordinator to moving into academia.
What kind of support? What did you see from? The campus itself from the administration in terms of doing this research and really promoting collegiate recovery on campuses. Um, support is always there. Um, there are at least I want to say, 7 HBCs with collegiate recovery programs now. And so, um, just kind of support.
Sustainability meetings happen once a month and I facilitate those. And so support is always there. Um, one big thing that I noticed is my hesitancy to climb over to the academic seat, um, was if I leave, does the program stop? But luckily the support stayed with the administration. The support stayed with, you know, [00:03:00] filling the position, making sure that they understood how to coordinate and understood how to keep the program growing, um, regardless of who.
You know, shows up and who just kind of leaves. And so, um, it's very supportive in doing the research and saying that no, we totally agree. There has to be more to it. Why aren't other campuses able to do what we do? Um, and how can what we, how can we make You know, improve what we're doing and make that better.
Um, and then how do we make this grow everywhere? So, um, getting the research off the ground was a little difficult. Um, one thing that people may not know about HBCU culture, unless you've been in it, is that, um, You know, it takes a lot to divulge things that we've discovered. It takes a lot to, you know, help others that are not similar or relevant to ourselves.
Um, so because just historically speaking, that hasn't always worked out well for us. And so they, the participants that I, um, utilized for my research were hesitant at first, even though we've had [00:04:00] like three to five years of rapport. I've explained it in and out. I talked to whoever higher ups, people that needed to sign off.
Um, the reluctance was one of the big obstacles, but ultimately we did get it done because we do see the importance of what we have to say and how it can benefit not only us and our campus, but other campuses that need services like we have. So what have you found in some of the research? What have been your findings and learnings?
Um, it's interesting that you say that. I'm actually presenting my preliminary findings in June at the ARHE conference. Um, so one thing that my research assistant and I have been playing around with, Um, as we've just kind of been analyzing some of our data is, um, a high sentiment. Um, so with qualitative research, sentiments are either positive or negative.
Um, they have medium, low and high. Um, and one thing that is really when you get like a medium negative sentiment, it's interesting with this population because it seems to Attribute itself [00:05:00] more to passion for what's being said, as opposed to like, it's good or bad. Um, so one of the findings is how we approach students that come to our programs, how we approach students in general, regardless of their age.
Um, it seems that we're lumping in college students, like our brain automatically assumes college student equals kid. And all come with that. And if we could strip away that perspective, we'll start to work on, you know, decreasing that bias a little bit. I think that more programs will be able to speak to any student more instead of just black students.
Dependence, autonomy are big things that we also notice in the student population. You have to make sure that they feel like they are making the decisions. They are able to consent to the activities they participate in, how they want to identify. Because that was another finding, a lot of the students will identify as allies, but not so much in recovery because of [00:06:00] mislabeling, stigma, historical trauma, things of that nature.
Um, so it's been pretty interesting so far, and a lot of them don't have a formal membership model. Interesting. Interesting. Wow. There's, I have so many different questions. I know. I was just thinking to put this in a concise way to look at this, but I think what you've talked about, you mentioned on historically black campuses, as well as your findings can be replicable.
Across the country as well. So I think that's really helpful. What what do you find? That is maybe the 1 thing. And if there's more than 1, I understand this that students look for in a collegiate recovery program on your campus. And particularly if you see that difference in an HBC you, what is it that.
That really draws them to a collegiate recovery program. Safety is the [00:07:00] best way to kind of, um, because safety is a big umbrella for trust, rapport, genuineness. A lot of it is, can I depend on you and trust you to say that you are who you are, who you say you are, and that you're doing what you say you're doing, that you're not here to get me in trouble.
You're here to help me that you're not here to tell me what to do. You're here to offer me guidance points. Yeah. That's it. When you say it, it makes perfect sense. Absolutely. But, but until you said it, I had all kinds of thoughts about what answer you might get, but you're right. That makes perfect sense.
So tell me a little bit more than from the administration, because you did mention like getting the research. The hoops you have to jump through for, for good reason, right? There is some skepticism, but you've got, it sounds like an administration that's really supportive. So, for those campuses that maybe haven't done this, what would you recommend?
Where would they start to really build a program like this? [00:08:00] Um, I would say. Reaching out to surrounding sister schools, whether it is a PWI, whether it is, you know, another HBCU or whatnot, even if surrounding means the next state over, um, it is a good way to just kind of start a foundation for, uh, their strength in numbers, right?
And if more people are saying the same thing, um, higher ups, superiors, administration, they're more likely to sign off because it's not just, well, who's under us that's saying this is needed. Where else is it being said? Because unfortunately, that's what will make them take it seriously. Um, and he's program was started as a pilot of six schools.
And so it's just like administration's like, oh, okay, well, it's other schools are doing it. Then sure. We can do it too. I will sign off on this. I will give you the go ahead, even though it's never been done, they can't possibly guide us. And so it is up to us to be kind of like the burden of proof on, on, As a way.
Um, and so I would definitely say to reach out to other HBCUs. You are more than welcome to [00:09:00] reach out to me. As I said, I meet monthly with each HBCU that currently has one. Um, I plan on meeting with three more because three more start in Louisiana. So I'm here for you. So what involved, what schools are involved so far?
Um, you mentioned, you said you mentioned monthly, what schools are we talking about in North Carolina or even beyond? Yeah, so in North Carolina, there's North Carolina A& T. Uh, there's North Carolina Central University. Uh, there's Fayetteville State. There's Elizabeth City. Um, we had contacts with, um, St. Aug, and, uh, I want to say Winston Salem State, but they are in, um, Search of a coordinator right now.
It's another big problem in the field. Um, we are also in touch with Allen University in South Carolina. Um, Grambling and Xavier in Louisiana are coming on board as well. Every time I'm like, I have a question in my head and then it disappears. Well, I have one. I'm like, yes, I'm like, I had 1 and I. Left. So I'm curious that there's a growing [00:10:00] body of prevention research that talks about ownership and you mentioned this too, in terms of the students feeling engaged, feeling authentic.
But when we look at even just addiction prevention, Um, there's a need for peers to have ownership in that program to feel like their voice is heard. Are you finding that similarly in your collegiate recovery research as well? Yes. Um, so not in like more in the, the action oriented way. It's, it's a lot about how I feel about, um, performative allyship for an allyship.
for you, but you're not really doing anything. It's kind of like that. It's like, oh yeah, you have a voice. But how, what does that look like? How is that demonstrated? Um, so we're finding that people are not only able to voice their ideas, their needs, their wants, what they think should be happening on their campus.
They are being used as kind of like the figurehead, the front runner, the point contact for, okay, well, we've got the resources, you've got the ideas, what do you need? Allowing students to say, okay, well, [00:11:00] if I want a women's only BIPOC recovery meeting on my campus, how do I make that happen? You help them make that happen.
You help them become a part of it. You help them be part of the foundation. That is how students take ownership on HBCU campuses. Not so much saying we all should do this. Here's the idea of I or I'll wait till you fix it, but becoming the project themselves. Right? Right. That makes sense. I had a question around the student impact and, you know, going to an HBCU is such a specific experience.
I think, especially for black students who didn't necessarily grow up engaged with black culture, and it can be a really, I don't want to say defining experience, but something along those lines, that's very important for sort of how they live the rest of their life. And I think recovery can be a similar, like, I know a lot of people in recovery who the moment they find their recovery, it's like, their life [00:12:00] is different and they're engaged in a different way.
And so I'd love to hear about sort of like. Both of those things happening at the same time and how that plays into, like, what do students look like when they leave you, um, or I guess not you anymore, but their school, you know, after having two potentially very transformative experiences, 100 percent as someone who did not grow up in predominantly black culture and then was exposed to HBCU culture.
I totally understand. It is jarring, um, to, cause you don't know what you're coming into. It's like the biggest family gathering you've ever been to in your life, which everybody knows you and you don't know one. And so it is a lot about trying to figure out where you fit. It is a lot about figuring out, you know, just kind of what kind of person in my culture am I, um, am I a sneaker headed?
Do I like to play sports? Do I do video games, whatever. Um, but. The thing is, you find your niche, you find your pocket, and then you just kind of grow and expand and hop from pocket to [00:13:00] pocket, um, if you'd like you grow to include other pockets, if you like. And so it's really interesting to see students kind of learn, you know, who they are, and then come into the area of recovery simply because, especially with, you know, But we started with an expanded definition of recovery.
We use SAMHSA because it doesn't mention addiction at all. And so recovery for a black student is applied to a lot more than just substance use or behavioral addiction. It's about, well, how do I recover from a traumatic upbringing? How do I recover from? Systemic racism. How do I, you know, do all these things as a first gen college student, as someone who's never been to college, all these things.
Um, and so when they kind of meet that, they're able to then shape recovery as their own. And then they pick up language and then they pick up the education piece to it as well. So that the beautiful part about nobody identifying as being in recovery is that it is now normalized across campus to consider people in recovery.
Um, and that is the. The [00:14:00] number one thing I would say that stands out about how we know how we impacted them when they leave is how they talk about it. That's the fact that they talk about it and name it, you know, and call it recovery, because then the other big thing about, you know, most black culture is fighting generational curses, which comes from either a path of bad family patterns and dynamics, historical and systemic trauma and racism, all of those things we're trying to kind of fight through to take a piece of ourselves and make it permanent.
They then go back to their families where that stuff is happening. They go back to these friendship circles in these communities, whereas it's happening. And then they share their information and then they get spread some more. Where can we fit in? One, I would definitely start sorting your own personal stuff out.
Check your biases, read your books, watch your podcasts, whatever you need to do. Learn to call yourself out because Unfortunately, it's nobody's job but yours. Um, and if you don't do the work, you're blocked off from so many possibilities. Um, and you don't know what you [00:15:00] don't know or what you're not considering.
Um, two would be to check your assumptions as well, as well as if you coordinate work staff admin for collegiate recovery program, check the assumptions of your program, your higher ups as well. It just because you built it doesn't mean everybody's going to come to you. So stop assuming that they're looking for you.
Stop assuming that you're the only way that they're going to get their addiction recovery support. Um, and just kind of get out of your comfort zone. If you want to get exposure, just like you would in a multicultural class, they tell you, a project. They say, Hey, go spend time with another culture, go spend time with another identity that you're not familiar with.
It's the same thing. You just won't get an A for it,
something much better than an egg. That's right. That's right. We can really explore this conversation. I, I would love to say, if we can invite you back for a part 2, um, in a deeper dive, I'd actually also love to hear more, um, your future research as you [00:16:00] continue to dive into the data. Um, I think the very last question I have just for you is what is on the horizon in terms of, are there, is there other research you're wanting to do?
What, what do we see in the future for you? Absolutely. So this 1st round of research was my pilot study. Um, my current academic institution helped me to get an internal grant to fund this. And so the next part is to go after an even bigger one that looks at, um, just kind of health disparities and. Racial disparities when it comes to recovery and addiction support.
Um, and so we're going to try to go after a bigger one because my whole. Deal is not only do I want to identify the components. I want to expand them. So if something is working, if having a podcast is working, if streaming your stuff is working, I want you to be able to expand it to the best of its ability.
I want to build you a streaming studio on your campus. So that you have, um, And not only improve current services that are going on, but then to replicate it to the ones that are already doing it and [00:17:00] then build that model and then take it to all the rest of the agencies in the U. S. That's 7 out of 107.
It's too small for me. We've got our work cut out for us, for sure. But we have to start somewhere. And I'm so grateful for just touching the surface of this conversation. So we'd love to have you back. Absolutely. Absolutely. We have more to talk about for sure. Absolutely. And we know you are a busy, busy person.
So we appreciate you taking some time and, um, out of that research to chat with us and we will certainly be in touch. Thank you.