Adopting Shape Up Through a Series of Experiments – Juan Villarejo (CTO & Co-founder at Nulinga)

#4: Today I am speaking with Juan Villarejo, CTO & Co-founder of Nulinga, an online language learning platform. Before founding Nulinga, Juan founded SinRutina, a subscription service for fitness classes, which was acquired by Gympass in 2018.

This conversation is part of a series about companies that use Shape Up, a delivery framework originally created at Basecamp. If you've never heard of Shape Up, check below for a link to the video "Shaping in a nutshell" by Ryan Singer, former head of strategy at Basecamp and author of the book "Shape Up - Stop Running in Circles and Ship Work that Matters".

In our conversation, Juan and I dive deep into how he's introduced Shape Up via a sequence of small steps and small wins, how to protect the team's focus, how to help people move from the "Builder" to the "Shaper" side, and the role of what Juan calls "Full Stack Designers" at Nulinga.

Juan has been a co-host of two meetups for the "Shape Up Practitioners Meetup" with me recently and he has generally been an incredibly active and helpful member of the Shape Up community. I'm very excited for you to hear what Juan had to say. 

Links:
Nulinga: https://nulinga.com/
Juan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juanivillarejo/
Juan on Twitter: https://twitter.com/juanivillarejo
Shaping in a nutshell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8M23wVjXk
Shape Up Meetup: https://www.meetup.com/shapeup-practitioners/
Shape Up Forum: https://discourse.learnshapeup.com/
Shapers & Builders job board: https://www.shapers.builders

Creators and Guests

Host

David Arens

Product Manager, Maker, and Host of the Shapers & Builders Podcast

Guest

Juani Villarejo

CTO & Co-Founder @ Nulinga

What is Shapers & Builders?

The show about better ways to deliver great software products.

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I wanted to change the dailies because we had daily daily meetings every day and I didn't want that I want to have
0:07
like okay let's the dailies let's be written like hard check-ins uh written check-ins on Slack
0:15
and a few people a few people people on the team who didn't like that
0:21
I tried to explain um that um always my point of view is okay let's
0:27
Let's do an experiment if that didn't work for the whole team we can go back
0:33
so that was my first like assessment of experimentation with the team right the
0:39
team was maybe at some point somewhere up opposed to change a few things but uh
0:45
when I put the site of less Lewis fragmentation they started to embrace
0:51
more the the the to adapt to change or try new things
1:01
Shapers and Builders a show about better ways to deliver great software products
1:07
today I'm speaking with Juan visharejo CTO and co-founder of new linga an
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online language learning platform before founding new linga Juan founded
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cindotina a subscription service for Fitness classes which was acquired by
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Jim pass in 2018. this conversation is part of a series about companies that
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use shape up a delivery framework originally created at Basecamp if you've never heard of shape up check the show
1:36
notes for a link to the video shaping in a nutshell by Ryan Singer former head of
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strategy at Basecamp and author of the book shape up stop running in circuits
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and ship work that matters in our conversation Gwen and I dive deep into
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how he's introduced Shape Up via sequence of small steps and small wins how to protect the team's Focus how to
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help people move from the Builder to the shaper side and the role of what fun
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calls full stack designers at new linga Juan has been a co-host of two meetups
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for The Shape Up practitioners Meetup with me recently and he has generally been an incredibly active and helpful
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member of the shaper Community I'm very excited for you to hear what Juan had to
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say foreign
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thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today before we get into shape up and all of
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that um I wanted to ask you to if you can please describe just briefly kind of the
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Arc of your career and how you got where you are now okay perfect I will try to
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be brief but maybe it's a little bit long story but I
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started I study software engineering
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um I changed my career in the middle because I started studying
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electronic engineering but I liked software better and when I started to programming in Ruby or try some high
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level languages that you kind of fall in love with them and electronic engineering aspect was more like
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um to low level and that's why I kind of started growing my career in software
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engineering nearing my background is mostly a developer and then started
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working for different companies for mostly software factories that they on
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the side of Consulting um having have like now it's like 14
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years of experience in the in the industry um
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I worked as a freelancer also mainly working as a remote worker for different
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uh as a freelancer Consulting and but then I started to my own business with
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some Partners we called it sin routina we well we build our own startup it was
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mostly a Marketplace for uh um Fitness access as a subscription
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based similar to what is now gym pass or class
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pass we under selling that company we we had
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an acquisition by jimpas it was very good for us we started working
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with them we stay for them with them for two years and that was on 2018
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[Music] uh the the acquisition and then to 2020s
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just before the the pandemic at the end of 2019 uh I started another startup
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another company for for us it's called new linga uh where
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well we started growing a lot we also is like language learning solution for uh
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B2B for B2B Market we offer language learning Solutions and
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Nexus to language learning teachers with English Portuguese and Spanish for the
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employees of of a company so they can have private tutors
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and where we are building all the software the operations all the distribution and Commercial side we are
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kind of fifties employees now
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how do those 50 split across uh kind of the engineering side the product org and
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other functions the areas is a commercial style
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I I I'm I will say that half and half half is on the supply side and half on
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the demand side from the the distribution the commercial side uh selling and and
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um account and client success but on the
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what I call the demand side the sorry the supply side or the production side is called we have operations and on the
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product team the product area we have like um we have 10 people right now uh let me
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I will check it but it's a 10. we are like um
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as I always say what we cannot build right now we kind of Supply that with a
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human power right with people executing things on there on the on the system uh
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manually executing some stuff we call that operation but
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and of course we want to the whole development team want to build things
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and automate the stuff so the operation team doesn't scale in the
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same way of the the whole operation right the whole business
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as a scale scalable company one thing I kind of want to make sure is that when
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people hear your story that they can kind of in their head compare to themselves how similar is where you are
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with new linga to to where they are in their company and so what you've said is
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you you are about 50 in total uh then 10 on the kind of product side and
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um and the company was founded in 2019 would you still call yourself kind of
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early stage startup or how would you how would you kind of Describe the life cycle of the company right now
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is an early startup in terms of the the the business size we have
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um one one million ARR mostly near right at that so in kind of that we are
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we are an early startup but our goals this this year as same as other Serum is
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to aim for profitability and we are going for
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um a break even in a few months so that's okay we are we want to be a
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owner of our own domain and in terms of our of our own future in that way so we
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can that's we don't need external funding in order to keep the operations
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right and keep on growing of course growing will be a little
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slower but the the objectives are are
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those and we kind of want to keep pursuing this business because we think
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there's a good opportunity nice sounds good fingers crossed
9:00
you mentioned shape up so why don't we kind of get into that um perfect and to kick things off there
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I wanted to ask you how did you get into shape up and what were your first encounters with it what was your initial
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reaction Maybe well I was a big follower of base camp
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um from the early sign albinois
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below and I was reading a lot about um well I'm a ruian rails user from
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range 3 right so I'm very fan of rails
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and also Ruby um so the thing is that um when I saw
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I also very fond of some of their philosophies I try to to hire managers
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of one and try to to have small teams uh
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very streamlined me as an entrepreneur an entrepreneur and and Builder I was a
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I had a very good
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Knowledge from what I need to do from a broad idea to ship it right
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but when I were when we were writing epics for scrum and planning the thing
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is that when I delegated I wanted to delegate those in into the development
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team because as a very early startup I wanted to keep on building things right I have more the
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more productivity was on my side because I couldn't I had the business I have some ideas from design in terms of
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um interactive design or Flow Design and also I have technical knowledge for
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implementing it so I wanted to keep on doing because if I become full manage I
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my the productivity of the whole team will be will go down
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and it wasn't working like that because when I delegated some epics on some of
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my raw ideas for the development team of for each of the developers they were
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just constantly asking me things right because the the idea wasn't shape the idea if we even was in frame at least it
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was okay we want to do this okay that's the they use the
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the user story right or the Epic story and the developers should write the the I I was expecting on that side to
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developers to write user stories or at least help them write their user stories in terms of their
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um but it it wasn't enough right because they would keep constantly asking me okay okay I did this I did this and now
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what's the decision about this what's the decision about that um maybe because our Hiring Our hiring
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budget wasn't high enough I had I was they were very oriented product engineerings but
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they still once were some they didn't have too much experience on some side so
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they were asking me also some technical aspects I didn't matter about the technical aspects because I can help
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them and and we do some we try to work with pull request and review stuff and
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have a common knowledge but there was some struggle in terms of um that I didn't have enough time to
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delegate I would become in full manage and it wasn't working as expected in
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terms of um in terms of it was being demanded all
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the time I didn't like that and that was a pre
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2019 it s second quarter of 2020. by that time I'm sure you must have
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heard already of of shape up or the early kind of ideas floating around right
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in various block articles exactly um so so what did you do
13:07
I wanted to change the dailies because we had daily daily meetings every day and I didn't want that I want to have
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like okay let's the dailies let's be written like hard check-ins read and check-ins on Slack
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but let's stop doing some daily meetings synchronous and on that I put that on
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the retrospective for me this one wasn't working and if you if you put people on the team
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who didn't like that didn't like that proposal for from my side I tried to explain
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um that okay my my always my point of view is okay let's
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Let's do an experiment for the these two sprints if someone if that didn't work
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for the whole team we can go back nothing is written on the song
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um so that was my first like assessment of experimentation with the team right
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the team was maybe at some point somewhere up supposed to change a few things but uh
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when I put the site of less Lewis fragmentation they started to embrace
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more the the the to adapt to change or try new things
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um because the the these people were coming from also from other companies that do
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very buy the book scrub right and when I wanted to introduce shape up
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I also um try the same and we have like to develop three Developers
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and to designers at that at that time so what I the scrum was the spring was two
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weeks per Sprint and what I did was to propose
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to propose a three weeks per Spring right let's do three weeks per Sprint on
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that side let's try it and once I have once I have that set and
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the people were comfortable okay we have three three whisper Sprint what I did
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was to try one developer and one one on the next
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Cycle One developer and one designer to work as a shape up to a method like a
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proof of concept separate like an experiment and
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um for of course Shape Up says okay we can do an appetite we can do cycle of six
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weeks but I didn't care about that I think okay I I took the the appetite or the this
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this weak side the number of weeks per cycle can be changed because it's not
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written on Stone it depends on the the projects that you have so I understood
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that I understand that the the that was on my cell phone how to how much do I
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want to bet on the projects and I say we can do some projects like
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three weeks so we can I don't have to change that too also for the whole team
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and so that's why I started to shape a project I tried some three I I say okay
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let's do three weeks plus one right it's one month on that side and well
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that when well the project the the pressure with one smoothly and the team
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the the team was very happy to deliver something I was very comfortable
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because what changed in that project um what I think that project proof is
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that okay during the weeks during the cycle this proof of concept cycle
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I had the team I still helped the team and and and be with them with some uh
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help them with some requirements but I was helping them
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mostly on some technical aspect on how to solve some things in the technical way because I was cto2
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but I didn't but but that those uh those
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problems that I have wasn't blocking problems that they could continue or or or doing some work they were just
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helping them in terms of quality of the output quality of the software but I
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didn't have to be on them mostly every day or maybe on demand about uh
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decisions about the business of decisions about the flow decisions about the interaction decisions about the what
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the user is expecting in some parts because it was written and it was clarified on the pitch and now it's
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called package but now on the pitch um and and that's what I it made me a clear
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okay I I can help them from the technical side I like to be on them I can also
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immerse here it's Morris synchronous because we do some porriguez and we can write them there
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but I don't need to um to kind of uh
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how do you say go into the rather into the rabbit hole
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every time on during the cycle right that was what myself and the team really
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liked about Shape Up so just so I make sure I get uh get it right what you
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mentioned was um kind of this move from two week Sprints up to three week
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Sprints and in that Trend and then you kind of also split the team where you
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kind of created these cycle teams these kind of shape up teams of one developer
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and one designer and in that process where you also removing yourself as an
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active contributor in that in this when you were still working with scrum I
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assume you were kind of actively working on tickets yourself and that changed in the process as well
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I didn't have to help them what should we do right because the what you will do
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was already was defined on the pitch before during scrum I was I was in the
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the answer to the question what should we do had to be answered mostly I would say
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every day but two or three times per week I that answer what should we do now
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what should we do now what's being answered every time and constantly on demand and and that's that's uh that's
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very very difficult if you want to think about also the other projects I don't know the
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other problems that appear on the on the on the business side on the software side um and plan what should we do next right
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okay now we are working with this but what are we going to work next
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and I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't think about that because I was on Always On Demand about what
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should we do now how did you justify to the team
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um that you wanted to kind of move to three week Sprints and pull yourself out
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of kind of daily uh weekly questions about what what do we do did you mention
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shape up as a as a thing to the team at that moment yeah yeah I I mentioned
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shape up to the to the team some I I think I like to experiment with new things to try new things in terms of
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um the process right and then okay we are working with this process what can
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we improve and the retrospection also help that to acknowledge and know about the team how the process was working
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and I think on on that side I think there the the retrospectives helped me in order to
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introduce to the team their exclamation because that was a
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Moon as I said and I introduced that it was a safe space for us to talk what was
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not working and having this experimentation
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view or mindset said on the team before because I
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changed the dailies I propose change the dailies and the and the team the team knew okay yeah this
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experimentation went good okay I think those that side
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uh maybe I with that perspective I gather
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more trust as a leader for the team because leaders we need to be we need to
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be trusted as a team and propose and bring safety in those in those terms hey
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because so I I sense that the team was having some struggling sir okay this is
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going to change and what if it doesn't work will be we will continue doing that because I think some companies maybe
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just impose some things and if they don't the team is is in conference however with that they just keep keeping
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doing that right right uh but I I I clarify with the team hey
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with changing the dailies if it doesn't work we go back uh if or or if it
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doesn't work let's know what did it what didn't work and let's fix that
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I'm always fond of this kind of uh field feedback loop from the process and rate
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your iteration uh not only with the product but the whole company and the whole processes and that was one main
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point that I gained trust with the team and when I propose shape up and they say okay let's try it
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so you kind of you you built up to it uh you got the team used through these
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little changes exactly to kind of a to a bigger maybe similar to the
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to the myth or the the the story of them told in a in a
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in a stop that is being boiled right you kind of turn the heat a little bit
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um slow so it doesn't feel that the change was
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from one moment to the Earth quick quickly just not with the outcome of uh
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kind of an untimely no of course of course this cotton is trying to this outcome is trying to be better for the
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whole team the process and The Business so before when we spoke um you also
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mentioned to me that you went to the I think it was called the shape and ship
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Workshop or I I don't remember uh but it was in 2020 in Chicago right at the base
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camp box no I I wasn't there I I wasn't there I I always
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read all them I really all the stuff that Ryan wrote I
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I saw all the videos including the one from Christopher Alexander and
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introduced me to Christopher in Center that I really like pattern languages and and a Timeless way of building and I
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kind of focus focus just every day I try to
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so maybe I saw the videos multiple times the the how we work videos uh that were
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like different steps I saw it multiple times and trying to understand the principles before that because
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previously I knew also the the whole process I knew
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I like to read a lot right and I knew the processes um of software building from scrum to
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kanban this more agile latitudes
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I needed I immune from practice from I needed them from experience working in
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this zone for factories or consultancies but beef
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just when I was on sin rutina at the end of sin rutina and also starting new
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linga and we wanted to hire more people I I I wanted to get into the rip right about this whole
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new software building stuff and I started to read in a lot of books like
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kanban in action or or other books that are from for scram actual coaching and
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and getting into a video about that so when I used to start learning about Shape Up and the videos on how we work
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from Ryan and Basecamp I got into I was mapping the principles right
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I I was okay some principles are from come from the
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Toyota production system and Lynnway and and it's building introduce some
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principles new principles but some of the stuff is
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still there from the Azure perspective uh way that I think and
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what I the the course that I made with Ryan was the hands-off course that was
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really also very insightful for for us in order for the transition between okay
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we have the pitch and then
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the team that would have implemented the delivery team again how do they start how do we
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negotiate some things that didn't appeared in where
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previously solved on the on the shaping sessions on the shape up so that hands-off
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worship was very was very interesting for me okay I wasn't aware of that it was a
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virtual worship that Ryan made um I want to kind of I want to switch
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gears a bit and get into some deep Dives um but before before we do that I want
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to just quickly fast forward to kind of to the setup you have now so uh if you
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could just run quickly through kind of the the cycle length you have now how
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you do cooldowns or ramp UPS um the team set up in the cycle teams and and just
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kind of yeah the the the basic pillars of your implementation now
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I have two squats working on proactive
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projects that is this strategic process and I have one we called it the pivot or
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pivot or the um that is working on reactive things
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and mainly on uh reactive things more small tasks a bag of bug fixing and
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maybe some maybe improvements refund sorts that we we can do some spikings
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Etc it's kind of we have this for each each cycle now we are doing six
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week Cycles because what we change from three to at that
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time we change from three to three plus one three cycle work and plus one cooldown
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then we change to four plus two but then at some time the projects were
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becoming more complex because of us already we have a lot of things built
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and in order of course if you change one things okay we it affects the business
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rule another part and the projects are becoming larger and larger and they say
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okay in order to achieve good quality and and what I sensed was that the team
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with four weeks plus two was kind of they were shipping on the cooldown right and I knew I want that I wanted to be
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able to ship and streamline uh by the fifth week I want them from them to be
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shipped and the six week is kind of okay let's fix some bugs that appear that we didn't
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kind of map and the cooldown are moments for us too
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okay do a retrospective we kind of keep that and then to the retrospective of
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the team we are like 10 people is kind of a small team um
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to be able to manage a retrospective meeting and also we do some
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um refactors maybe some improvements that
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were left from other projects before and also
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um we use this kind of hands of exercise by the end of the cooldown and 30 of the
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next next cycle um I am the one who do do all the shaping
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now after but on this side current cycle I'm
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working with another this with another designer one of the designers of the team but I wanted for him to to be able
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to learn and to be able to to to shape and think uh some things
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and also um I
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I would say that me as having different multiple hats uh sometimes I like to
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to be on the call right and maybe sometimes I when I had to shape some things I procrastinate them
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and and on that way I really like the shaping sessions with other person
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because we are kind of focused on the problem trying to solve and thinking about them thinking about that and the
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business rules in the same or similar way as you do with the purple programming session
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right I see that that way okay a programming for me was very comfortable and I liked working on that because
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two people are working two developers are working in a a problem that is kind
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of maybe hard sometimes or um and if and you are either focus on
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the problem and you know that it's a problem that if you have to do an alarm you will procrastinate it
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because it's kind of okay this is a boring problem or I don't want to do
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that I'm trying with that and if you don't win another person um you kind of
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uh film I I for myself I my sentiments are
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kind of I feel happy when I work I'm working you're boring stuff with someone else
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so in kind of on that way I know I'm not saying that shaping shape shaping session or shaping some stuff is boring
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but I tend to procrastinate them or pay attention to other stuff that is going
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on right and so when I okay let's do this meeting session and when I commit with another person
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I it tends to go better hey I hope you're enjoying the
32:57
conversation I wanted to take a moment to thank you for listening and to let you know about the Shapers and Builders
33:03
job board on Shapers dot Builders yes that's the domain you'll find jobs in
33:10
software development design product management and other roles at companies that work with Shape Up many of these
33:18
roads are remote and teams who use Shape Up generally run at a more sustainable
33:23
healthy and meaningful Pace than the hamster wheel of two week Sprints so if
33:28
you're looking for a job in Tech or trying to find great people head over to the Shapers and Builders job board at
33:36
shapers.builders now let's turn back to the conversation [Music]
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thank you foreign
33:48
how you um how you've been working now with a designer to kind of train them as a
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shaper so you would be the um only shaper anymore and that is
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actually a perfect segue into one of the deep types that I wanted to do with you
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um to take just one step back um the the way I kind of set this up is because
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you've been such an active member of The Shape Up Forum I actually went in and
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picked four of your comments uh which I wanted to kind of Grill you a bit on
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okay and now the order is getting a bit out of line but one of them actually is
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um and let's just pick that one how to help people move from the Builder's side over to the shaper side and you actually
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in this post that you wrote on that topic you said we are experiencing this
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one person a developer of the team started to think more about the product
34:49
and wanted to start shaping my Approach was to ask them to write three major problems or ideas he wanted to pitch
34:56
after that I told him what I suspected would provide more value to the user and he started to write a pitch
35:03
um so it seems like that that is a different story but maybe you can just kind of expand a bit on of course how
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you think about helping people into the shaper role yeah the thing was that
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um well that that developeration with us anymore uh we have kind of um
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um a few was went to work for to another company um because we have some
35:28
uh some of the developers that were working with us went to work from our company to pursue other other projects
35:35
on other uh other learn about other industry went to the financial startup
35:41
and but what I sense on that and then that's a I
35:49
gave them to think about the three prongs I wanted to try and and write some Pitch right and then what I did was
35:59
to um review with them or or maybe do a framing say if a shaping session with
36:06
them or answer some questions and the
36:12
oh so one of the projects [Music] um
36:19
didn't we kind of didn't quite go into that way on the project uh because
36:28
it has a immediate more work to be done and it wasn't better because we
36:34
because we have some other important more important things
36:39
doing that side I will change that um that um how to say that that comment
36:47
I will do in different way I will give them the problem and they will
36:54
shape the things in order for them to solve because
37:01
the first the first step is to in um now after doing the
37:07
after I did the the course on on shaping in real life with Ryan
37:14
um and the on the post he wrote about okay
37:19
Framing and shaping I think the the value change the value of the the
37:28
sorry the value chain of the whole software delivery process
37:34
I kind of have it map in the in the whole in in my whole mind and Ryan did
37:39
perfectly that it's kind of from raw idea you have you pass to framing the
37:45
idea and the output of the framing is just a frame idea with the constraint of a bed
37:52
of the appetite and and on that side okay now we have a
37:58
frame problem right we have the outcome and the context and then after that we
38:04
have the shaping is the shaping process the shipping step
38:10
the shipping phase and that we have we produce a solution that can go with all
38:15
the context on the problem and the app that you have and also sorry the the the the frame the output is also okay who is
38:23
going for us for example is who is going to attack this problem because also the
38:28
shaping changes if some ex some experienced developer and has more
38:35
experience with the domain it's not the shaping won't be the same as if more junior or less experimental uh person of
38:43
the domain it has to work on that so um on that side and the shaping then the
38:49
hands off then the delivery and then a some they cool down again and some q a
38:55
but the thing is that taking a personalized on the delivery
39:02
team and then putting to work on some uh
39:10
um to think about some problems uh I think will be a very
39:16
a very long jump for the them to to do it well because he will jump and skip
39:24
the shaping it will go and Skip and to the framing and the problem right on the
39:29
on this on this on the side they will just from raw idea go to to
39:36
shaping but uh okay they won't think about okay why are we doing this or is it this
39:43
important so in those on that perspective uh what I will do is okay we
39:49
have this Frame problems okay try to shape it and then we review it also what
39:57
I'm doing with now with with this designer is okay we have this problem I frame the problem and
40:03
I don't do this kind of shaping and then we're reviewing we kind
40:09
of meet into the framing set in the shaping session sorry
40:14
I know what we do there is I try for him to provide the answers of
40:22
things about them maybe sometimes I know what we can do in terms of technical
40:27
aspect side on terms of business what I try to do is come up is
40:33
leading him thing before and not giving that solution try to ask him them
40:40
questions or okay and what do you think with that and when do you and
40:45
what what problem does it have right just guide them in a Socratic way or
40:50
kind of that so what you've said about kind of the jump from focusing on
40:57
execution to thinking about what what are the
41:02
problems that we are facing that we in the opportunities we could be working on that that is a big jump that makes a lot
41:08
of sense I'm just wondering can you is there an example you can share of kind
41:14
of the the output of of a project when it was at the framing stage versus how
41:20
it looked at the shaping stage I I have some some templates that we kind of work
41:28
in in that way so um it's very now it's very easy for for a
41:35
person to no no at least for the okay what type of the
41:40
things underneath for the pitch right and they um how to solve them have the answer but at least they will know what
41:47
are they outputs um on the framing what I have is like
41:55
um a template that let me check to give
42:01
correct data um [Music] on the framing was I have now is okay
42:10
before before I for four or three weeks before I we
42:16
didn't have this kind of perfect frame right we kind of of framing
42:22
framing I know say bad Global framing I ID raw ideas that are there and then we
42:28
kind of sometimes framing sometimes now do we we kind of filter them and it says no not
42:35
for now because it's not important but some framing which I try to do
42:41
is to to write that list okay the
42:48
what's the outcome right for for example we have a project that it was for
42:55
um of course we have a private tutors that have some synchronous uh synchronous
43:02
lectures with your synchronous classes and in that way as we are human we are
43:09
person maybe something came up for one of the teacher or the student and they want to reprogram the the class for
43:16
other day and have they had to recover the class right and this is the impression impression we
43:23
are currently working on this cycle of course we have recovery classes but we didn't have a perfect
43:31
[Music] um a perfect flow for them to read to arrange a recovery right for us and we
43:39
didn't have um very trustful data and what
43:45
classes should be recovered and what state those classes were right because you okay we know that this class have to
43:53
be recovered but it was recalled did it was recovered did not did it was
44:00
scheduled for recover because the class was already scheduled but maybe something came up again and they
44:06
couldn't attend and okay of course of course in that way the The Clash will be recovered again
44:13
and this flow and this whole process I know we
44:19
this is what's a very important project this this um and from their raw idea we have is is it
44:27
was okay we need to we have a problem with Rico with the recovery we don't know what if
44:34
they're recovering the classes or not we need to know if the classes can be if
44:40
the glasses are being recovered and give them better tools for the the student
44:46
and the teacher to be able to recover and this was the the outcome that we
44:52
expected them from the the raw idea from recovery classes with hybrid with recovery classes
44:59
what do we want with that okay we want um we want for them to be able to
45:07
acknowledge which classes have to be recovered and in a seamless or flow way
45:12
to be able to gave them a request for send them a request for Recovery to a student or to
45:18
a teacher or maybe of course some person some people
45:26
as you see your teacher on the next week you you go to the next week and the end of the class oh we have this class this
45:33
class that should be recovered oh yeah where can what time can you recover I can I can on this Tuesday at 10 00 am
45:42
okay in part that part of the process we knew
45:47
that okay it doesn't the the teacher shouldn't give a request around the
45:54
platform they already arranged on the on the meeting so we had to give them tools
45:59
for the teacher to already okay I just create the recovery class right now
46:06
so that was one of the the things that were and they were struggling we have
46:12
the request side but we didn't were mapping this thing that happened
46:18
during the the classes not everything has to happen around a platform or a
46:25
software product and and on that side we say okay this will
46:31
be a better tool for them um in that outcome we we say okay this
46:37
this was a problem right they they arranged the classes outside our platform on the meeting on the on the
46:43
lecture um and we didn't game we they don't have tools to just in one click to create
46:50
them um on that on and there's a okay that was
46:55
kind of the problem okay give them a better tool for them to arrange a quick recovery lecture
47:02
and the context okay we kind of uh
47:09
um we're gonna from the context try to give them where do we start this was one
47:16
of where do are we starting with okay do we don't have any we don't have bad good
47:23
data on if the classes are being recovered that was one of the things that we struggle
47:30
um we didn't have um I would say we we already have these
47:37
request for for recovering glass to send requests but it was
47:44
it was needed to be align this new way or this new flow aligned with the flow that was from
47:52
um with the request that was already on the system right how do we map those two things on the flow
47:59
so that was one of the problems I kind of have this template that I got from
48:05
Ryan on the hands of a meeting that is kind of okay impulse
48:10
saying something about what prompted this project and what makes it an opportunity right now what's the the
48:16
impulse of the the the raw idea the current way describe what people do
48:22
today with this project including workarounds and compensating behaviors what they are what
48:27
there's always something that's happening and that you are the not mapping rights when the problem there is
48:33
if the user is still doing work with you is still working with you maybe they are
48:40
solving this in another way or maybe and they have workarounds or kind of
48:46
that and try to think about what's the current way they are doing and the struggle right what makes make
48:53
it clear what goes wrong with the current way or the workarounds what are my what what are the struggles with them
48:58
what is the this workaround or this thing they are trying doing and what's
49:05
problem what problem do we have do they happen now that and kind of
49:11
that's mostly the the context that we wrap from a framing session and they
49:18
um and of course the impulse is is sometimes back up with data in terms of
49:25
that because okay we have this [Music] um this data
49:31
I use we use data for to prioritize the problems sometimes also not to to make
49:39
it the case right and the output of the framing is kind of this now context and outcome with this
49:46
template of input scoring way of struggle the shaping should give you the the
49:53
other thing is of course they and the appetite right we have the appetite also for the frame and we have a framing
50:00
problem frame problem we have all context this contact with the template and the outcome and the appetite
50:06
and then I try to assign the okay
50:11
who on the team are going to attack this sometime because they have more knowledge I try to now I try to assign
50:18
it the the people that have more knowledge on the domain right
50:26
and with this Con with this kind of template uh we go with to a shaping session with
50:33
the designer and they kind of okay now I know what the problem is I know what a
50:40
the struggle is with the current scenario current situation for the user
50:46
now I can I can start working on some solution I can start working thinking about some flows
50:52
I can start work thinking about okay what some constraints because we have
51:00
this kind of a this kind of uh
51:05
part of the side part of the web where the request of this recovery classes
51:12
were going now when shaping the solution um the designer and have to think in the
51:18
shape or have to think okay should we move these requests to other
51:24
part of the navigation should we introduce a new Step previously so we can have two branches okay send a
51:33
request for this recovery classes or create right now a recovery class with for this uh pending recovery that you
51:41
have so and those are ideas that came up once you map okay
51:48
what we have right now is this this isn't working [Music] um
51:53
and we are not and struggling with this sort of thing that we don't have
51:58
um one thing that is kind of connected to what we talked about was I found a post of yours where you were talking
52:04
about the role of designers within shape up and that is the question that I see come
52:11
up um quite frequently and you call you you were talking about something
52:18
um that you called a full stack designer and you compared it kind of to uh to a
52:24
full stack engineer understanding um can you maybe explain how what you call a designer on
52:33
your team kind of what um what parts of the kind of the process
52:39
of product development that entails where does the designer start where does
52:45
it stop um how is the role how are the responsibilities of that role and how
52:51
does it maybe also map to shaping versus building I I'm very
52:58
I'm very fond of designers in in the way Basecamp has their designers in terms of
53:05
they can write HTML and they can write CSS
53:11
um because um they can
53:18
I worked before in some software consultancies on some freelancing that
53:23
they gave me the figma Phi or something like that and it was very high fidelity
53:29
and if they didn't know HTML or say CSS or some kind of how the
53:38
web development kind of works for the browser it's kind of yeah we we cannot do that right and that
53:46
was a struggling moment for me as a developer and also I see that with developers I think when a designer that
53:52
doesn't know their medium um who doesn't know how to implement the medium it's in some ways they and they
54:00
had to be experts on that but they should be able to kind of write that and learn and be able to map an idea
54:08
is it just about knowing the medium or is it also about being able to implement
54:14
the work in what I've seen other teams than call rather a front-end engineer
54:19
for example my designers in in in in in the in our
54:25
development team um in our pro team don't know JavaScript so in that way uh
54:35
in that way they can have an HTML and then they have
54:41
um and they can write CSS very well but they don't they don't are a full
54:47
front-end engineering um I wanted to give a a team as small as
54:54
possible because maybe our budget or maybe a goals or things like that so in
55:00
those ways and I want to be able to uh because I
55:05
that's why one one of the main things about rails is Ruby and rails is that is very
55:12
easy to ship something right because it's everything is stuck on there is it
55:18
has everything every tool that you need for this type to um solve a software problem and in in
55:25
that way I always like you to work with the full stack
55:30
um food stack developers because I don't need a team of two
55:36
um with development skills for two people with this similar development skills
55:44
working on the same project because the notes of communication grow
55:50
exponentially right if two people on the squad are much better than three people
55:58
also I I struggled with that at first we had two
56:03
developers and one designer and will happen on that side is the
56:10
the develop the developers were working very concurrently between them and the
56:16
the designer was kind of maybe out of some decisions because the developers
56:23
um move faster in terms of technical stuff now what what I saw with that is
56:29
that okay I take out one developer and put the developers designer together
56:38
and they have to be able to talk with each other and decide so now the the
56:44
designer is learning more some technical stuff and the developer is learning more
56:50
design stuff we are what I think is that the um
56:58
we tend to stick with what is comfortable for us and for developer it's more comfortable to talk with
57:04
another developer than talking with designer with different skills on different Minds so can you just explain
57:12
briefly what you what a full stack designer yes for you totally
57:17
for me full stack designer is someone who can think about a
57:25
interactions flow to think to be able to think about the
57:31
the flow of of a use case of a pro of of a solution
57:39
with maybe do some breadboarding uh or and think about the the difference
57:47
screens or steps and the affordances that it should have for the
57:53
the user to solve to make progress and also
58:00
to be able to work in a delivery team and in an artistic way
58:09
for for him or her and to deliver a good
58:14
quality in terms of Aesthetics for the for the project
58:20
um and also to be able to interview at least a
58:26
user and be able to know what are the struggle is to know what questions can be asked in
58:33
order for the the user to know uh for the the the team to the pro team
58:38
to know what what should we do or what is this person struggling with so that of course the when you kind of
58:47
have more a general skills or kind of try to map different
58:52
things and it's very difficult to be a specialist in some aspects right but
59:01
I think in the current stage of our product or couldn't stage of the
59:07
business the that level of specialization
59:15
will fill the night the rest of the 90 to 100 percent
59:22
right it wouldn't be too from the they're really eighty percent of the stuff we are
59:29
building can be sold with this kind of um this different full stack skills and
59:35
in a very cost effective way in that sense though if I'm
59:40
understanding you right a designer is spanning the word of a being a shaper which you
59:49
know would be their skills about understanding problems um speaking with users and kind of
59:56
ideating through Solutions on the shaping side and then also because you
1:00:01
mentioned this in the beginning part of a build build a team kind of a cycle
1:00:06
team exactly exactly that's that's for me a full a full stack designer to be
1:00:12
able to map this kind of three Three Hats or three
1:00:18
Circles of skills and and be able to
1:00:25
to think about the solution and try to think at least from the flow to the UI
1:00:31
artistic way so the next thing I wanted to talk to you about was how to protect
1:00:36
the cycle teams from outside distraction our business is kind of we try to provide a full learning solution so we
1:00:42
kind of connect with the meetings arrange scheduling kind of have the
1:00:48
whole editor and content for the for the we have a learning a learning team that
1:00:53
generates the content for giving for giving them for the teachers to give the classes and we have some administrations
1:01:00
part of the platform we have the clients as we give B2B we are a B2B company
1:01:10
um we give the our clients the companies we give them like a port for them to track the how they they the usage is and
1:01:18
to metrics so we have a lot of go a lot of go things going on on our
1:01:24
platform right and if you have a lot of things going on that of course
1:01:32
it doesn't matter if your quality of software is good you will have more bugs because a lot of more is going on and
1:01:39
and those on those side I is I think okay we still have to have some slack to
1:01:46
provide time for be able to solve or track some on the problems that are
1:01:51
occurring on our platform because the our domain uh the main context is huge
1:01:58
uh so in that way that's why I I decided to just split the the in two trucks I have okay
1:02:06
we have strategic problems that we are attacking proactively and plan and we
1:02:11
have reactive problems that are attacked by a pivot developer that
1:02:19
is working on that and it's if it's if he or she has some slack it's okay we
1:02:25
they can work on a refactor they can work on some improvements uh they can do
1:02:31
some spiking for the next cycle and I don't I don't care if they are having some slack and this the main important
1:02:39
problem is that this pivot person should be should change for
1:02:46
for should change for each cycle because maybe it's a boring task to be
1:02:52
continually being done right so if someone is committed
1:02:57
for the whole year to do some tests that it will be boring for him or her so he
1:03:03
will be able to rotate to have this rotation in the pivot uh now in this
1:03:08
cycle and the people cool I mean I guess the team will be
1:03:14
glad to see you also step into this quote unquote boring role exactly
1:03:20
I want to wrap up with some kind of quick fire questions some reflective
1:03:25
questions to you um and the first one I want to ask you is what advice would you give to other
1:03:32
teams trying Shape Up and to frame this um I would say think about
1:03:38
what would you tell Juan who's living in a parallel universe that's kind of off
1:03:43
by three to four years that's you three years ago what would you tell yourself what I
1:03:50
think now about shape up is that um you don't have to take the the book
1:03:57
is just it was one phase of the shape and methodology it was just okay it was
1:04:04
mapping all the knowledge and it was a um a starting point right now the the
1:04:11
other teams that are improving are are trying that are are finding some things
1:04:16
that they didn't map out that's why I really like this uh their the latest
1:04:23
course by Ryan because it's kind of the whole value changes his map and you
1:04:29
don't have to and also important aspect that he did he changed the term of the
1:04:35
rabbit hole into an analogy that he called them a
1:04:40
time bomb that the rabbit holes are time bombs that if you don't that you have to
1:04:47
diffuse if you don't diffuse those time bombs uh previously or before the the
1:04:53
delivery cycle those balls will explode or do you will have to
1:04:58
uh have an anti-bomb team or maybe it's anti-bomb Squad that gather at that
1:05:05
point to take a decision and then one of the aspects of shape up that I I learned through through the time that
1:05:13
it mainly shape up and change in the shaping previously or taking decisions
1:05:21
up front that later that's the main difference from scrum
1:05:27
is that some this some decisions can be should be taken up
1:05:33
front because it will demand a lot of
1:05:39
people to gather for diffuse in these bombs later because some decisions
1:05:45
should be answered with some business perspective some designs perspective and
1:05:50
those persons this those people's maybe aren't available at that time and that
1:05:56
will has a struggle for the deliberative and that's that's why I try to think
1:06:03
okay shaping is about taking the important decision Upfront for the delivery team
1:06:09
to work autonomously it's not to be you can gather those
1:06:14
principles with the book like um the the constraints are
1:06:21
um and the rabbit holes now I I like them better to call them in the fuse time box
1:06:27
um that's why one of them main aspects and
1:06:32
and also when people say that shaping is a natural or like that that is really I
1:06:38
saw sometimes it's like yeah it's the six weeks can be changed you know
1:06:45
you don't have to work on six weeks those those the the
1:06:52
how many weeks do do you have on the cycle it depends on the stage of the
1:06:57
building process you are the stage of the business you are right now or the
1:07:02
what you are building right now and can be changed you can do some three weeks it depends on the projects how much
1:07:09
constraint you you want to put on the projects the the the time is a
1:07:14
constraint for you to design uh the solutions and those can be changed
1:07:22
um that's why the main the main principle the appetite is it's it's decent written
1:07:27
on sound that it should be six weeks and the decisions taken up front are not
1:07:34
for I for not to be Ash hello to be a water fully thing but to think about the
1:07:40
resource allocation later wrapping up now I want to thank you so much for your time and for sharing your
1:07:49
experience your team's experience where can people find you if they want to get in touch and and hear more on your
1:07:55
perspective or exchange ideas with you um well I'm fully on lingering and try
1:08:03
to kind of uh my link and it's it's mostly a lot of things about shape up
1:08:08
and on on Twitter maybe but my Twitter is more
1:08:14
broader ideas and a lot of nothing ideas that I'm very fond of his book and his
1:08:22
work but on LinkedIn mostly I I will I'm working I'm posting a lot of shape up
1:08:28
ideas and I'm uh if someone from Spanish speaking
1:08:35
um Spanish-speaking businesses are trying to do some shape up or work on
1:08:40
shape up I want to kind of gather a community of Spanish-speaking Shapers
1:08:45
that's great then I'll make sure to put your LinkedIn handle uh link to your LinkedIn profile into the show notes and
1:08:52
so people definitely should get in touch there um thank you so so much it was really
1:08:57
great to hear your experience today thank you thank you David for the this
1:09:03
invitation and I hope this helps our people
1:09:08
[Music] there you have it I hope you enjoyed the
1:09:15
conversation with Glenn I certainly did if you like this show it really goes a
1:09:21
long way if you leave a favorable review wherever you are listening to this and to find jobs at companies that work with
1:09:28
shaper like new linga remember to check out shapers.builders yes that really is
1:09:34
the domain thank you so much for listening and I hope you have a great day
1:09:43
[Music]