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Information isn’t the gap between failure and success—action is. Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching helps you create a plan and execute on what matters most for your business. Apply today at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
Falling into a funk is inevitable, but that doesn’t mean you have to stay there. In this episode, Alex talks with Ben Loy about a four-step process for getting yourself out of a rut and beginning to practice healthy growth. They also talk about the importance of managing your funk so it doesn’t lead to burnout, and Alex shares practical examples from his own life for each action step.
Episode Recap:
- Today, Ben Loy is going to lead us through a conversation about getting out of a funk
- It’s natural to go through periods where you feel like you’re in a rut
- Unless you take steps to get out of a funk, you can easily slip into burnout
- Own It: You can’t fix what you won’t face
- Talk About It: Be authentic with everyone and transparent with a precious few
- Jolt Your Way Out Of It: Try something significantly different to get a different result
- Practice Healthy Growth: As you move out of the funk, it’s time to ask yourself what healthy growth looks like moving forward
- Anticipate the next funk and focus on your rate of recovery
Resources:
If you’re ready to move beyond just gathering information and start executing on what truly matters, Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching can help. Apply now at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
Creators and Guests
What is Path for Growth with Alex Judd?
Path for Growth exists to help impact-driven leaders step into who they were created to be SO THAT others benefit and God is glorified.
Hey. Just a heads up. You're gonna hear a different voice on this podcast episode. Ben Loy has been a good friend of mine ever since I moved to Phoenix, Arizona, and he's also someone that I just absolutely love to talk business and leadership with. And that's why it's been so cool that over the course of the past couple months now, Ben has stepped in to help us in a business development coordinator role here on the Path4Growth team.
Speaker 1:And the impact that he's already made specifically in the marketing arena is just so cool. And so I was really excited for us to take a topic that we know in the past has resonated with the business leaders, the business owners that we work with and that listen to this podcast, which is how to get out of a funk and to dive deeper into the practical side and quite frankly, even some of the personal side of that topic for leaders. And so I asked Ben, hey. Could you craft a conversation that maybe helps us go one layer deeper than where we've been on this topic? And that's what you're gonna hear in this episode.
Speaker 1:Stoked for you to hear it. Here's my conversation with Ben Boy.
Speaker 2:Alright, Alex. So what does being in a funk look like for you?
Speaker 1:What does it look like for me? You get get personal real quick, Ben. Man, I would say, like, my response to that question might actually be different, depend on which season of life I'm in or even which stage of business that I'm in. Like I can think of periods over the course of the past five years since we started Path for Growth, where especially in the early stages, you're kind of doing a little bit of everything and every day looks different. And, and you're spending so much time talking to people, getting people bought into the mission, getting people bought into the vision.
Speaker 1:And that's just like your job whenever you're founding or starting a business. And I just remember early on, there were days where quite frankly, was like, man, I typically love that part of it. And there's days where you just wake up and you're like, I just don't feel like it. I would just rather, like, not be the person that is doing everything related to this mission, vision. And and it was really in starting this business that that was kind of almost kinda scary for me.
Speaker 1:I didn't have the language of funk at the time, but it was like, is this okay? Because I've never felt like not doing something before. Right? I I like, that's typically a strength of mine. Now I would say what a funk can look like five years into business.
Speaker 1:It's less, man, I have to do everything and I just don't feel like doing everything because we've got a robust team now and things like that. It's more just maybe, can I say, getting into a rut associated with consistency? We build our business around making consistent deposits into the life of the people that we serve. It's all about growth. Healthy growth in a business is all about not doing a bunch of new extravagant flashy stuff.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's like just doing the reps the right way and growing in that way. And you can start to lack patience, you can start to lack energy, you can start to lack endurance. And sometimes there's times where you just say, man, I wanna do something different. And that's what I would say sometimes in the season that I'm in right now, a quote, unquote funk can show up, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Definitely. How have you seen that play out in other leaders and other people's businesses?
Speaker 1:I actually think, Ben, and you and I haven't talked about this, but that's where the topic of funk came from originally is we were on a virtual workshop or something like that within the Path 4Growth community. And it was a bunch of business owners on the call. And we had like a slide that just said, which of these feels like it describes where you're at in business right now or a place that you've been before? Like, there were a bunch of different options. Like, I'm wearing too many hats.
Speaker 1:I'm struggling to delegate well. I need to work on my business, not in my business. And then, literally, I created the content. So one of the statements that I put that was kind of meant to be a little bit of a personal growth statement was I I just feel like I'm in a funk. And it was like, we might as well been not have had any of the other options because I asked them, like, out of these four options, which feels like it resonates with you?
Speaker 1:And, dude, it was crazy. It was like everyone put number four. Right? Like, everyone put, like, I just feel like I'm in a funk. And I'd be interested to get your thoughts on this too because you've got fresh eyes on the Path four Growth community and everything we're building.
Speaker 1:But it was out of that initial, like, workshop that I just spent some time with the topic of what does this language even mean? And literally looked it up, and the Urban Dictionary definition, gosh, what was it? It was temporal state of hopelessness or depression, which that's kinda wild. Right? Like, it's way easier to say, I just feel like I'm in a funk.
Speaker 1:Like, I don't see many people walking around saying I'm in a temporal state of hopelessness and depression. It'd be interesting to talk about why that is. But I would say that definition is what I see playing out for other leaders. For for them, it can look very different than what mine looks like, and it can even vary like we've already talked about between season of life or stage of business. But I think we do have those moments oftentimes where it's just like, I just feel like I'm a little bit temporarily.
Speaker 1:I know it's a season and I know I'm gonna get out of it. I just feel a little bit off. I just feel like I'm not I don't have the same juice that I typically typically have. It feels like I'm praying the same prayers, but they're hitting a ceiling in some ways. And that's how I see it play out for the leaders that we work with around the country, quite frankly.
Speaker 2:So it sounds like there's some common language around, like, what people would use if they were in a funk. But funk is what actually resonates when when you when you give that to people that they can they can hold on to that that term itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man. So why why do you, like, I'd be interested to know why do you think that is? I can theorize on it too. But, like, why I've literally thought about this quite a bit. Like, why is it that when we showed that slide that day, like, everyone was like, funk.
Speaker 1:I resonate with that word. Because I think that's really telling.
Speaker 2:I I think specific pain points for people can be different. You know? I mean, like you said, I I a funk looks different for someone in the early stages of a business than it does for someone five, ten, fifteen years down the line. And their problems aren't necessarily going to be exactly like the problems that someone has in those early stages. And so I feel like funk is just vague enough that, like, everyone gets it.
Speaker 2:Like, the struggle the struggle is there. They can grasp it, but there it isn't specific enough to make people feel like they're in and out of that specific stage when it's happening. So that that that's my thought.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I and I wonder if language of, like, it just feels off would also resonate with people, which I mean, you and I are both Christians, right? Like, part of this could even be looked at as like, this is part of like a confrontation with reality. It's like, what do all leaders have? They have a sense of hope, and they have an ideal for things as they should be.
Speaker 1:And I actually think that's a god given thing. Right? Like, when we say thy kingdom come, I think what we're literally saying is, like, we have a vision for heaven being here on this earth. But, like, you know, the phrase I know theologians always use is, like, we are in the already, but not yet. Like, we are in this, like, in between time where we know there's, like, things that are not as they should be.
Speaker 1:And I guess just for me, like, the way I would say it is, like, sometimes things feel more not as they should be than others. Like and and that would be, like, a lot of times when I use that funk language of, like, man, it just feels off, and it just feels like I'm seeing things through a little bit of a lens of brokenness.
Speaker 2:It's almost like you I mean, you're always you always have that vision. You always have the the vision of what's possible in front of you. But then there's just those seasons where maybe you're just not making the progress that you thought you would towards that vision, and then you fall into maybe a cycle of of of funk, you know, from from that lack of progress when your wheels are just spinning and you're not you're not moving forward in any way.
Speaker 1:I I think you keyed in on something that's really important for business owners. The only way I would amend it is sometimes we either think we do or we don't at all actually have the vision. Like, we don't have that. And therefore, progress like, how do you make or perceive progress towards something that you're actually incredibly unclear on what it actually is? And it's really easy when you're starting your business.
Speaker 1:Vision is just like having a business that, man, God willing, makes money and serves people. It's like that's clear vision. Right? And every day you're taking steps. But then once you're there, the more successful you become, the more options become available to you, which means clarity of vision actually becomes more challenging, not less challenging in a multitude of options.
Speaker 1:And you can be working so hard every single day. And I mean, to put it this way, have nothing to show for it. Like, you have no sense of progress because you're not actually on some grander narrative or you haven't captured what you're actually aiming at. You know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Would you say is there any difference between funk, burnout, and depression? Or would you say that they're all sort of related to each other or the same?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, we we should, start by saying I am not a licensed counselor, and I certainly don't have my PhD in psychology. So in some ways, this is this is semantics, but funk, burnout, and depression. I I was just thinking about I mean, you know, I used to work for Dave Ramsey, and Mhmm. He his commentary on people being burned out.
Speaker 1:He was like, how could you be burned out? You were never on fire to begin with. Right? And, like so and I actually think, like, we all need a little bit of Dave's voice in our lives, especially now where it's like, it can actually be tempting to use these words as an excuse for lack of work ethic. And that's not what they are.
Speaker 1:Right? And that's not what we're advising on here. But what I would say is we already defined funk. Funk is a temporal state. You you, like, even as you're waking up each morning, not feeling like it and, like, just in a little bit of a rut and just feels like you don't have momentum.
Speaker 1:It feels like everything takes more work than what it did before, things like that. But, like, at least for the times when I've experienced a quote, unquote funk in my life, I can literally even tell people, I know this is going to end. Like, I know I don't know if it's gonna be three weeks. I don't know if it's if it's gonna be two days. Part of what we're gonna talk about in this episode is I know there's specific things I have agency over that if I do them, it will help me get out of this state, and we're gonna, like Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Talk about what those specific things people can do are, but it's temporal. Burnout to me feels like a description of, like, an end state. Right? Like, have it's probably funk over time unaddressed creates burnout. That's probably a good definition.
Speaker 1:Right? Like, if you don't do the things that we're talking about on this episode, I feel like the trajectory you're on trends towards burnout. And then depression, man, I don't wanna touch that word with the 10 foot pole because I know that that's a a clinical thing that I am probably not, equipped or able to diagnose.
Speaker 2:So, I mean, you already alluded to it, but you do have a framework for this. And the first step of that framework is own it. Something that you wrote was you can't fix what you won't face. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1:Oh, man. I've been writing a lot about this lately. It's actually something I heard Tim Keller say is he thinks that, or thought, rest in peace, Tim Keller, right? He thought that you could probably capture self deception as the gateway sin. And what he means by that is like every other sin creeps its way into your life, and for the purposes of this podcast, would say creeps its way into your leadership, by you first deceiving yourself into saying it's a non issue.
Speaker 1:And I think that's actually really relevant to this point right here is like, you can't solve a problem you won't name. You can't fix what you refuse to see. You'll never conquer what you don't confront. Right? And if, when I think about my personal life, there's times where it's like, honestly, probably the biggest reason why I choose not to see it more often than not is it feels inefficient.
Speaker 1:Right? And if what that means is I've become a person that's idolizing efficiency and probably massively sacrificing effectiveness on the altar of efficiency, But I'm like, yeah. Like, I don't I don't feel like it. Yeah. Everything feels like it it's taking more work.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'm really irritable around people or, yeah, I'm starting to look at everything through a transactional lens and and I would call that a funk, but, like, I don't have I don't have time to deal with this right now is what I would tell myself. And that's that's a great example of me not owning it. Right? Like, so I think what a leader has to do is they have to have the guts to say something is not as it should be.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's in the way I relate to my family. Maybe it's in the way I'm relating to my team. Maybe it's in the way I'm thinking about my business. And to name that that is the current reality because I actually I I think that's the starting line.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That I don't have time, I feel like, is just so so frequently thrown out in I mean, in business, but also just in life, like, so many different contexts. People just, oh, how are you? I'm busy. You know?
Speaker 2:It's just like this state that we, I think, consistently live in. But I I think it's interesting. Like, you I mean, you point that out as almost an excuse people use to not be intentional about what's really going on.
Speaker 1:Well, I was just gonna say it's like, theoretically, I slash we at Path for Growth, teach this stuff. Right? Mhmm. But, I mean, more recent than I'd like to admit, in the last six months, I recognized that for a period of time, I was going to bed on Sunday dreading Monday morning. And I would just get this nod in my chest, and that is very different than my norm or my go to.
Speaker 1:Right? I typically am, I I mean, I I literally, like, used to say in high school, I used to say t g I m. Thank god it's Monday. Right? Like, that's what I used to say.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, my high school friends really loved that. I'm sure you can imagine. Yeah. But, like so for me to be going to bed and then it's like, would start beating myself up. Like, why do I why do I feel this way?
Speaker 1:I shouldn't be feeling this way. This is something that I struggle with or that I do. And to the point that we're talking about, if I'm looking back and kind of reflecting on that season now, what's something that I would say I made a mistake in? I would say I did a really poor job of slowing down to realize that was the case, and I allowed it to linger way longer than it should have for quote unquote the sake of efficiency. And eventually I had what we're about to talk about, a jolt moment where I had this time of prayer and journaling that was like a reset.
Speaker 1:And that's where I labeled the word dread. I couldn't have even called it the word dread before, but I labeled the word dread. And dude, now looking back though, it's like I was going into every single day of every single week in some ways with a lingering thought of dread and burden, do I really think it was less efficient to not take an hour to actually address that? Right? Like, it's like Yeah.
Speaker 1:Dude, that is some screwed up napkin math that I'm doing there. Like, it I think the process that we're actually gonna talk about, it takes a rational person to recognize it, not an emotional person, but it's actually way more efficient to do the thing instead of just, like, pushing it off and not owning it.
Speaker 2:What do you think keeps most leaders from acknowledging that they're in a funk and owning it?
Speaker 1:Pride. Yeah. I that's me. I'd be interested to know, like, how you feel about this. But yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, that's what I wrote. That's what I wrote in my notes.
Speaker 1:Oh, dude.
Speaker 2:That's yeah.
Speaker 1:We're on the same page. So what yeah. I'd I'd be interested to know what is pride for you. Pride for me is I like to think of myself as someone that has it figured out and that doesn't need help or that doesn't need to slow down or or that doesn't need to seek outside. Like, I can seek outside counsel, but my outside counsel is always gonna be oriented towards the future.
Speaker 1:Like, what are we doing? What are we building? Not like at all tinkering or trying to heal something going on in the present. I don't I my natural state does not like those conversations. So that's how I would say pride manifests for me.
Speaker 1:Is there anything you'd add to that, Ben?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I think it's just always wanting to like, all I mean, you hit you hit the nail on the head. Like, always looking towards the future, always wanting to work towards or be that ideal or be in that ideal. And so not taking the time to just slow down and be like, well, we're not there yet. And there are things going on that we need to acknowledge to get there that involve more than just putting your head down and, like, trudging through whatever you're you're going through.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I I agree. I think that's how pride manifests is, yeah, thinking that you just have the strength to just keep going and that it'll figure itself out at some point versus acknowledging the weak points, acknowledging what you're going through, and actually taking steps to find some resolution.
Speaker 1:Dude, and and I think you also hit on, you know, pride is the internal sin that that will keep me from owning it. One of the maybe external realities that can also drive not owning it, I think is also really important to pay attention to is, I can't even remember if this is the proper title of the book. I think it I think it was a book called Bad Therapy. Have you heard of this book at all by chance? Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What what a what a great title to get people interested. I have not read the book personally. I've talked to a lot of people that read the book, and I've listened to a bunch of interviews that she did. She was on Jordan Peterson.
Speaker 1:She was on Rogan. I mean, yeah, she did the whole tour and everything. She's a clinical psychologist, I believe. And she talks about how like some of the things that are currently being done in therapy can actually be very detrimental and that like, it's not actually encouraging reflection that results in action. It's encouraging rumination.
Speaker 1:Right? Which is literally just self conscious dwelling on the brokenness of your current reality. And sometimes, I think maybe the better angels of my nature would say the reason why I'm not owning it or I'm not dwelling in it is because I don't wanna ruminate. Right? Like, I I don't wanna sit down and say, like, how rough my life is and all of that.
Speaker 1:But I think that's why it's so important. What we're sharing today is, like, you gotta start by owning it, but you don't just stay there. You don't just say, well, I'm in a funk. I've now named that I'm in a funk, and so now I'm just gonna sit in my funk. It's like, no.
Speaker 1:You name it for the purposes of them, like, doing something out of that reality, not just ruminating on it.
Speaker 2:What are some questions that a leader could ask themselves to maybe get to the root of the problem versus sort of the symptoms that you'd see of a funk?
Speaker 1:Oh, man. Yeah, so I would say, first of all, to name that you're in a funk, do you like the person you're being? Do you like the leader that you're being? Do you like the person or leader that you're becoming? Are you viewing the world around you through a lens of abundance, generosity, joy, right?
Speaker 1:The fruit of the spirit are especially relevant here. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self control. Are you viewing the world through that lens or are you viewing it through the lens of backbiting, infighting, scarcity, narcissism? Right? All those things where it's like you're becoming basically almost inwardly turned on how everything is affecting you in some form or fashion.
Speaker 1:Right? So I would look for those things. And and if any of those things are starting to show like a check engine light, I would slow down and pay attention. And then to your exact question, one of the things that I found is really helpful for getting to the source, this was shared with me years ago. It's called the five core emotions.
Speaker 1:And so the idea here is that we use a lot of language like funk or like disappointed or like irritated or annoyed or bummed. We use language like that. And oftentimes that language is indicative of deeper realities that if we look at the deeper reality, it can really help us move forward. And so the five core emotions, anger, shame, sadness, gladness, fear. And so what's really helpful is like, if I'm in a funk, a lot of times saying like, what's the core emotion here?
Speaker 1:Because that's gonna be the thing that we're then going to counteract, right? It, you know, if I'm frustrated or annoyed, it's probably anger, Right? If I'm shy or embarrassed, it's probably shame. Right? If it's anxious, stressed, scared, it's probably fear.
Speaker 1:But getting that core emotion I have one more thing I wanna say on that, but if there's a follow-up on it before we get into that.
Speaker 2:Go for
Speaker 1:it. Okay. I would just say that, Ben, have you read Never Split the Difference? Have you read that book?
Speaker 2:No. I haven't.
Speaker 1:Dude, Chris Voss, like f b FBI hostage negotiator. We actually on the previous podcast that I was on, I I got to interview him, it was like one of my favorite interviews that I've ever done. But one of the tactical things he presents in that book is emotional labeling. And the idea is that when your mind is governed by an emotion, you have zero ability to think rationally. And they see this, like when you are gripped by anger, shame, sadness, fear, right?
Speaker 1:Any of those, you have an inability to think rationally. And this plays out, apparently it plays out in like the neuroimaging that they do of people that are being governed by emotion. How do you reduce the grip of a strong negative emotion like that on your brain, apparently labeling it and naming it is actually the strategy. Like in FBI hostage negotiations, if they could get them to literally just say they are angry, everything about the tone of the conversation would change. And I I can't speak to hostage negotiations.
Speaker 1:What I can speak to is I have leveraged this tool, anger, shame, sadness, gladness, fear, in so many coaching conversations. I will ask leaders that come in and literally their their shoulders are up by their ears. They're they're talking like I mean, it doesn't even sound like they're breathing whenever they're talking. It's clear that an emotion is going in their their decision making and their rationality. And I'll just ask them anger, shame, sadness, gladness, fear, which one are you feeling right now?
Speaker 1:And it's wild. They'll waffle back and forth a little bit. Eventually they'll name it. And almost like in conjunction with them naming it, you'll see their shoulders start to drop. You'll see them take a deep breath.
Speaker 1:And then you'll start to see them rationally process what next steps are. And so I say all that just to say is like, get to the source by naming the core emotion and then make the point of like either speaking that to someone or like writing it down because that's proven this ability to release your emotionally governed view of the situation.
Speaker 2:So that goes on to the the next step, which you mentioned acknowledging it and then writing it down or sharing it with someone. And that's talk about it. Right? So why do you think so many leaders, like, self isolate when they're struggling?
Speaker 1:A couple things come to mind. We work with a lot of business owners, and I think a lot of times you become a really effective business owner whenever you're really good at taking responsibility for things and essentially putting the ball in the end zone, right? Like, that's my job, right? And that's what your goal is. And in some ways, that's a great strength.
Speaker 1:Right? But if you're not careful, you can kinda build a house of cards around yourself where it's like, well, gosh, I'm the person that puts the ball in the end zone. I can't talk to my spouse about this. Right? I can't tell her or him if I'm feeling off or I'm not feeling like it or if work feels a little bit more dread than it normally does.
Speaker 1:Right? And then like these people that work for me that I'm close to, that a lot of them are my friends. I don't know that I can tell them this because I'm supposed to be the one leading them. Literally, part of my job is inspiring them with vision and confidence. I'm gonna be the person that's saying, Man, I'm really struggling feeling like it.
Speaker 1:Like, not only is that not in their best interest, it's also not in my best interest. Right? And then I think the stage that I have been at before, praise God, I'm not there now, but I have been at before, and I see business owners are often in this state, is they say, I I can't tell my spouse. I can't tell the people that work for me that I am friendly with, but it wouldn't be appropriate to tell them. And like, those are my people.
Speaker 1:And I I don't have anyone else. And then by the time you're in the funk, it's a lot like what they always say about running marathon. If you become thirsty, it's already too late to start drinking electrolytes. Right? Like, it's like, oh, so now now that I'm in this funk where everything feels incredibly either irritating or depressing or hopeless, now I'm gonna go invest myself in building really authentic community.
Speaker 1:It's like, dude, you're gonna be the guy that shows up the small group that is like everyone's like, wow. He just unloaded everything on us in day one. It's like you kinda have to build that context before you need it so that when you need it, it's there and you have people that are able to receive it and actually help you through it with wisdom is kinda my thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Do you think when it comes to to building that community, is there a difference between venting and, like, being vulnerable with someone? And if so, what's the difference?
Speaker 1:That's a good question, Ben. Yeah, I had a leader that used to teach me be authentic with everyone and transparent with a precious few. And I think that's really good wisdom. So it was actually Carrie Vaughn, who I know you know, she she goes to church with us. I was part of something where she shared this framework, and I thought it was so helpful.
Speaker 1:It's basically like a matrix, like, that helps you know when to share. The y axis is vulnerability, right? And the x axis is agency or authority. And so what we're referring to here is your vulnerability should be proportional to the amount of agency or authority that they have in your life to be able to do something with what you're sharing with them. So it's like, if I with If I go to one of our team members, if I go to Bert on our team, who's just an absolute all star on our team, and I actually really, really like the guy.
Speaker 1:He's such a pro. I enjoy talking to him. He works on our team and he works as the customer experience specialist. If I go to him and we're doing highlighter win at the beginning of a meeting that we have and I say, You know, Bert, Aspen is just really getting on my nerves lately, and I'm really concerned about our organization's finances right now. That's really stressing me out.
Speaker 1:And I also have this issue with our coaching department that they're really, really annoying me. It's like I'm being extremely vulnerable, right, which in our society today is actually very encouraged in leadership, but I'm being vulnerable with someone that has zero agency or authority. Like, what is he gonna Bert does not have the ability to tell me, Alex, you need to, like, buck up and stop blaming everyone else and start owning something. He's not going to be able to tell me that, right? Because even if he did tell me that, I'm not going to receive it well.
Speaker 1:Then also, it's like, what is he going to do with this information I'm giving him? That's a great example of someone that is, you're being high vulnerability, but they don't have any agency. And so what we need to do, I think, is create relationships that are we need to have a certain subset of relationships that are probably not tied to our work, that are high vulnerability, high agency. And so to go back to the example we used earlier, if that's not your spouse, mean, action item number one, would say, if you are married is you are not doing your spouse any favors by protecting them from reality is what I would say. Like, by you saying, oh, I can't share with them frustrations or annoyances or fears related to the business because I don't wanna get them all worried or freaked out.
Speaker 1:It's like maybe an okay short term strategy. I think, like, ultimately an awful life strategy.
Speaker 2:Can you share a time when you brought something to your inner circle and kind of how that played out?
Speaker 1:I mean, we should bring Aspen in here for this conversation, I I would say. Yeah. Yes, I can think of a couple times that really stand out in particular. We can go back to the one that I already used, right? Like that feeling of dread, right?
Speaker 1:That I was having related to work, And just feeling off about that, right? It was clearly a funk. And I even kind of knew, I think this is gonna go away at some point, but I don't necessarily know what the way out of it is. And it feels very abnormal for me. Shared it with Aspen.
Speaker 1:That's where I first shared it. And this is what I would tell people is a lot of times, I actually haven't really recognized this until you asked this question, Ben. A lot of times I think the owning it and sharing it are not like step one, own. Step two, share. It's like rather it's typically like Aspen and I are on a long walk.
Speaker 1:It's almost always where these conversations occur. We're on a long walk and like we're just talking to each other about what's going on in our world and questions that we've got and things like that. And it's in the process of being on a long walk and talking that I end up owning something or naming something that I just didn't even realize was going on. And then and then she'll call and she'll be like, that sounds like something like that. Maybe we should, like, talk more about that.
Speaker 1:It's like, yeah. Maybe we should. That would be a good idea. Right? And so in that case, it was like, I I think that maybe over the period of a couple of long walks that we had, it was like I became aware that it was a thing.
Speaker 1:Out of that, I spent one you know, it was my jolt morning, like, really strong morning praying about it, thinking about it. And then we talked more about it and shared about it. And then in processing with Aspen, like, kind of had, like, hey. A lot of times out of my conversations with Aspen, one of the kinda, like, action items that I leave with that I put for myself is, like, I wanna talk to a couple other, like, really close friends or mentors about this. Right?
Speaker 1:Like, I wanna now share the my v one conversation, god bless her, is often Aspen where it's like, you're you're gonna get every single idea, and I'm gonna reserve the right to take back anything I say because it might, like, might not hit. Right? But but it's verbal processing. And then, like, out of that, I can then go to a mentor, and and I'm not I'm no longer verbal processing with the mentor oftentimes. I'm like, hey.
Speaker 1:I've I've figured out what it is. I I know what it is, and this is what I'm really struggling with it. And I either just need to share it or I need your wisdom on what to do with it or or your perspective on how to handle it or on any blind spots. So does that answer your question?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And, I mean, that just really drives home the idea of having like, these relationships take work, and they don't just happen overnight. And so you're not just gonna be able to I mean, God might put those people in your lives, you know, in a season like this, but, like, more than likely, you're not just gonna be able to jump into this type of relationship. Like, that's something you're already taking the intentional time with Aspen in this context to to get to know her and to go on walks consistently and be vulnerable and share your unfiltered thoughts. And then it's in that context that you're able to then move forward with with some of those things.
Speaker 2:So, I mean, yeah, that just it's like, if you don't have those relationships ahead of time, it's gonna be a lot more difficult to do that.
Speaker 1:That, I mean, what you just hit on there is why we literally tell our coaching customers whenever they start working with a one on one coach is like, single calls that you do with your coach are going to be good, right? And my expectation is that a single call that you have with one of our one on one coaches will always be good and valuable. And the reason why that is, is like we train our coaches and number one, they're incredibly effective leaders in their own right. And then we train them on a process for like, here's how we note or take a ninety minute call and make it outrageously valuable for a business owner or business leader. So number one, what I always say is like single calls are gonna be good.
Speaker 1:The context of multiple calls over time is going to be great. It's going to be outstanding. Because it's like you have those people then, in this case, it's a coach where it's like not only are they hearing your problem that you're focusing on with regard to your business in in the season that you're in, but our coaches are really good at picking up on tendencies and trajectories and also principles and growth that we often, like, ignore from the past. And they'll be able to coach not just to where the moment of time that you find yourself in right now as a leader, rather they're able to coach towards the narrative and trajectory that you're on in your business and leadership growth journey, which that's where it's like you start to see trends and trajectories where you're like, oh my gosh. I always do that.
Speaker 1:And that's the thing where I'm shooting myself and our company in the foot. And if I could fix that, like, that's like the linchpin thing that everything will turn on. But you can't you can't you cannot get that in a single call. You know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yep. Alright. So you're in a funk. You've you've owned it.
Speaker 2:You've talked about it. What's the next step?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Own it. Talk about it. And I love the language here. Jolt your way out of it.
Speaker 1:Right? And I would, like, encourage you to think about it that way. Like, jolt. Right? The tendency can be own it, talk about it, mope your way out of it.
Speaker 1:It's like, no. Like, we don't need the language of mope. Like, we need language of jolt. Right? Like, if if you were in a a deep valley, right, we often, on this podcast talk about the value of daily small minute actions to move you towards a desired destination.
Speaker 1:What I'm saying right now is not that. Right? If you are in a temporal state of depression and hopelessness, massive action, Something new, something different, something fresh to reset the system. The consistency will come, but, man, it was so powerful when I realized, like, no. There are times where if you're legitimately in a funk, you have to do massively, extravagantly, hugely different things to start getting new results.
Speaker 1:And so that's why we use the language of jolt.
Speaker 2:Can you name a significant time that you jolted your way out of a funk?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, do one every year, right? It actually became a yearly rhythm for me, but it started as a jolt. And I don't know that I've ever shared this before, but there was a time, this was before I started the business where I was on Christmas break with my family. I was down in Houston and I was I was working at for an organization at a job at this time. And I was in a funk.
Speaker 1:Right? Like, I I didn't wanna leave Houston. I didn't wanna leave home. I I this is extremely odd for me. It was like January 30 or it was December 30 or something like that.
Speaker 1:And I was not looking forward to January 1 as, like, a time for setting, like and, Ben, I mean, you and I are close friends. Like, that if I'm ever not looking forward to January 1, that's, like, huge red flag. Right? Like, massive issue. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Exactly. And so I you know, and this is why as a believer, I would say it's really good to invite God into these things and, like, prayerfully consider what a jolt would be. I I would not have used that language at the time, but I I would say I knew something was off. I I knew that I was in a little bit of a funk. This is like, what, seven years ago now.
Speaker 1:And I was on a run-in Houston. It was my last run-in Houston before I think I had a flight out back to Nashville that night or the next day. And it was on that run that I was kinda like praying and just thinking and reflecting and literally just kinda got this holy spirit, like gut punch that was like five miles at 5AM every day. And I I was like, that sounds awful. Like, I'm not like, I don't really wanna do that.
Speaker 1:And then it was just like, but what if you did? Like, what if you did that as a means of, like, rattling your system, having something to aim at? And and I was like, five miles at 5AM every day in January is kind of what I was thinking and praying about. And then it was like, okay. But, like, God has something to say about Sabbath too, so what if it's five miles at 5AM every day in January except Sunday?
Speaker 1:And I just kind of committed. Literally on that run, I got back and I saw my parents after the run and I said, I think I'm gonna do this. And they were like, that feels like a really random idea that you just came up with, but okay. And, like, establish these rules. Like, it can't be inside on a treadmill unless there's thunder or lightning.
Speaker 1:Right? Which there's never thunder or lightning in January. It's just always, like, sleeting and, like, really freaking cold. Right? So it became known as five at five.
Speaker 1:And that first year I did it, I can honestly say, I, this sounds like a trite and cliche phrase, but, like, January changed my life. Like, I can point to specific things that occurred that January. And so then I I've done it every year since then. Gosh. I think I'm now on, like, year 11 or something like that.
Speaker 1:It's crazy. Like and what's neat now is, like, it didn't start this way. I did it for, I think, five years by myself and then would just, like, share about it on social media after it was done because I was too scared to share about it before I was done. But then like people started joining in. And now every year we have a crew of people.
Speaker 1:There were like 20 something people that did five at five this year. And what I think of five at five is is a jolt. Right? Like it's something for me to aim at. It's something to reset my mind.
Speaker 1:And what's so cool is like there's so many questions in January. There's so many options and opportunities. One thing that's not a question that's already solved for is you're out of bed. You have to be running by 5AM. You are running by 5AM.
Speaker 1:You're gonna be miserable, but then you're gonna text a group of people afterwards that you did it. And, man, like, the growth that has come from that monthly jolt that I would say, yes, it's good in January, where I often finding myself reflecting on the fruit of five at five is in March, is in April, is in May, where I'm like, man, that just set the tone for a year in a way that it wouldn't have been possible any other.
Speaker 2:And I've done exactly one of those runs with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Which I mean, dude, you wanna talk about a a litmus test of a good friend is like, alright. You know, you're like if they text you, they're like, hey. You wanna work out tomorrow? And you're like, yeah.
Speaker 1:How's 04:50AM? And if you're if you're I I've literally told friends, like, if you're late, I will be gone because I have a rule that I have to follow. And then they ask you, like, who made up the rules? And you're like, I made up the rules. It's it's it's
Speaker 2:But you gotta stick to the principles.
Speaker 1:You know? Dude, exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think what I love about that too is a jolt can be fun, and it can be exciting, but it it also, like, costs you something. Something. Right? It costs you sleep. It costs intentionality.
Speaker 2:It wasn't like this this crazy thing that had no risk and and no work involved. What would you say to someone who feels paralyzed and doesn't know, like, how to take that step or or what to do or what kind of jolt would work for them?
Speaker 1:The principle that I often reflect on is that, like, the company's called Path for Growth. Let's remember this. Growth and comfort never coexist. Right? So, like, if you're asking to grow, which is what you're essentially doing, if you say, I'm in a funk, I wanna be out of a funk, you're saying, I wanna grow my way out of this.
Speaker 1:Right? And and you're kind of praying, like, can you help me grow my way out of this? We could have just as easily named the company Path for Discomfort. Right? It Yeah.
Speaker 1:Not not nearly as good for marketing, and I think you would really struggle in a business development role, Ben, but but we could have called it that. Right? And and because it's the same thing. And so in some ways, a great way to define what your jolt should be is what's the thing that if I did it, it would make me the most uncomfortable? And sometimes it's something like five at five for me, which is a physical challenge, right?
Speaker 1:Because our growth is often embodied, right? Shows up in our physical body, and if we change something physically, we often change things emotionally, spiritually, psychologically, all of that. But then there are sometimes where it's like me doing a running challenge might be good, but it's not the thing that would be uncomfortable. The thing that would be uncomfortable is like, I need to go see a counselor or a pastor. You know?
Speaker 1:Or I need to go like, I need to have a really challenging conversation with Aspen. Right? I need to carve out, like, two hours to journal my way through these big questions that are just keeping me up at night or something like that. And so I would say, I would never wanna be overly prescriptive, but I would tell people like, think about what would be most uncomfortable. And if you're struggling with it, what's really important is that you don't allow lack of clarity to keep you from taking action.
Speaker 1:And so if you're struggling with it, make the action be like, maybe you're gonna share this podcast with someone or just share the concept with someone that you trust and be like, I need to figure out a jolt. Can you help me figure out the jolt that I'm going to do? Right? But we always talk about New Year's resolutions. It's like we talk about them in a very negative light, but what they should really mean is you have a sense of resolve, right?
Speaker 1:And change in growth, I've seen this over and over again, partly because of the business that we're in. Change in growth always starts with a line in the sand moment, where a person collaborates and cooperates with God to say, no more. We're doing different things to get different results. And oftentimes, the greater the funk, the greater the jolt you're gonna need to get initially, like, out of it a little bit so that you can start to then establish new habits, routines, and rhythms.
Speaker 2:So do jolts have to be extreme? Because it sounds like you're you know, the examples you've given have been anywhere from run five miles a day every morning in January January to, like, journal for an hour. So how can someone gauge like, do they have to be extreme? Which I I feel like the answer is no. And then, like, how can someone gauge how extreme their jolt needs to be for a particular season?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I would say it should be on the edge of extreme for you. Right? So an interesting way to look at this is we have people do five at five now. And there are some people that sign up for five at five that I'm like, dude, you need to be you need to do one at one.
Speaker 1:Like like and and that that that's not at all. I mean, 1AM would be no joke either. Right? But it's like it's like you just went from a a zero to a twenty, like, overnight. Right?
Speaker 1:And so I think that's the thing that I would say is, like, the thing for me that's challenging and difficult about five at five is not five miles every day. Right? It's 5AM every single day and being out running in the cold every single day. And so I say that to say, like, you know, if one is not extreme at all, 10 is extreme, five at five for me feels like a six. And so but it does flirt with, like, the every single day nature of it flirts with.
Speaker 1:For me, those times where it's like I journal or go meet with a counselor or something like that, going and meeting with a counselor whenever things are moving so fast paced and I'm hyper focused on efficiency and I feel like I don't have time, that can actually feel extreme. That can sometimes feel like a seven or an eight, and this is where it takes wisdom and I think community really helps to say, what is the thing that's actually gonna be in my best interest here that I don't want to do? And that is wild. Spend some time with that question. And that's really what we're talking about with the Joel.
Speaker 1:What is the thing that is clearly in my best interest, but I don't wanna do it? Because that question is so helpful because it names the internal contradiction. You're telling me you don't want to do the thing that you know is in your best interest. That is crazy talk, but the minute you label that, you're like, okay, I need to do it. And that's what I often see people, if they take time to be thoughtful about it, and this is why conversation can be really helpful because self induced thoughtfulness is really difficult.
Speaker 1:If they take time to talk about it, be thoughtful about it, they know what they need to do. Like, it's very clear what they need to do. And now it's just like some accountability around it, I think.
Speaker 2:Is jolting the best method for healthy growth?
Speaker 1:Jolting as a lifestyle is not. And I think we see that play out pretty, especially in the fitness space. Right? There's actually, I know for a fact, because we did an interview, you and I were talking about this, we did an interview with Melissa Urban years ago now. She was the founder of Whole30, right, which Whole30 is this diet plan that it's not a diet plan.
Speaker 1:Actually, she literally said this is not what it is. It's a reset plan. You do like, you cut out all inflammatory foods for thirty days. And she's like very deliberate about the thirty days. And she says like, the point is not that this is gonna be your lifestyle moving forward.
Speaker 1:The point is we are going to reset your mindset, behaviors, and thinking about food for thirty days so that when you get on the backside of that thirty days, you have a clear view of what's actually good for you. And you can establish habits, rhythms and routines. And so, wow, what a great example of a jolt, right? That it's not, you know, we all know that person or have been that person that it's like, I'm gonna do whole 30 for thirty days, then I'm gonna do keto for thirty days, then I'm gonna do carnivore for thirty days. And it's like, we basically just jolt jump.
Speaker 1:I've never used that phrase before, but it's like, I just jump from jolt to jolt and there's no sense of consistency ever. Like my life is a series of jolts with intermediate periods of funk in between. That's not what we're talking about. Like in so many ways, like if I'm looking for physical growth, I need a physical jolt that results in continuous habits moving forward that are a new lifestyle moving forward. Not, I'm gonna do this physical jolt, then after a while, I'll stop doing that.
Speaker 1:I'll go into a period of funk. And then because I'm in a funk, I'll choose a new jolt to do. That actually contradicts what what we're trying to accomplish here.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You wrote healthy growth is not what you could do. It's about what you would do. Share more about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We should share the original post on this in the in the show notes of the episode too. But, yeah, I mean, everyone, whenever they're talking about growth, they they ask like, oh, man. What could I do this year? Like, what what like, what could I do over the course of the next quarter?
Speaker 1:And, like, what could I do if I took my health really, really seriously? And I I obviously like the sense of optimism and faith that's associated with the idea of what could you do. But ultimately, if we're talking, like, pragmatic, like, actually what makes people grow, the question I wanna ask you as a coach is like, what would you do? I get that. Yeah, man.
Speaker 1:If I could wake up every morning at 4AM, read two chapters of a book, drink my greens, cold plunge, run five miles, and then start work before anyone's even out of bed. Like, if I could do that, my life would be money. Yes. I agree with you. If you could do that, your life would be money.
Speaker 1:Right? But would you do that? And maybe the answer is yes. Maybe you're like, yes. I would do that every single day.
Speaker 1:And I know certain people that would do that every single day. The thing that I often see is like, especially once we're past the jolt stage, we way over prioritize extravagancy and we way under prioritize consistency. And it's like, I'd rather you do the right manageable thing consistently than the extravagant cool thing occasionally. Because we're in We're talking a lot right now within the Pathway Road community about long game leadership. We are playing the long game, and the long game If you talk to leaders that play the long game in their business and in their life, it's not these series of extravagance jolts that got them to where they are today.
Speaker 1:It's the never ending consistent deposits that made them into a person of character and conviction that people actually wanna follow. And so don't underprioritize consistency. And on the backside of your jolt, ask yourself the question, okay, what does healthy growth look like moving forward now? I'm no longer committing to five miles at 5AM every day except Sunday, but what am I committing to now that would sustain the momentum that I currently have?
Speaker 2:It kinda I mean, you you run. You run marathons. So it the saying, you know, it's a marathon, not a sprint, I feel like just rings so true. It's like once the race has started, you've gotten that jolt of adrenaline, the excitement starts to wear off. Like, what's the consistent pace you're gonna continue to run after that initial start?
Speaker 2:Cause it's a long road. If you just take all your energy and use it all up at the beginning, it's gonna be hard to stay consistent. What does healthy growth look like for you in this season?
Speaker 1:Oh, well, Ben, you know this, because you live here in Phoenix and we get to see each other in person a lot right now, which is such a gift. But like, one of the great challenges for me, which I hope to record a podcast eventually on what I'm learning right now in this, is like, one of the great challenges is what is the season that we're actually in? And it's because Lily, our first daughter, she's 10 old now, like we now have a diagnosis, praise God, that happened in the last two weeks. But she has this extremely rare genetic condition that I would not put her in the category of a special needs child, I would just put her in the category of a high needs child. Like our protocols for sleep and eating and interaction and attention with a 10 old baby are going to be very, very different.
Speaker 1:Honestly, for most of her life, it looks as though, barring God does something different, which he absolutely can do, are going to be very different than what a normal 10 old would need from their parents. And so in so many ways, I feel like the season that we are in right now could change tomorrow, and it's a season of temporary uncertainty is what I would And so for me right now, it's interesting, as someone that really likes to build structure and consistency, I think part of healthy growth right now is saying, what is the base level consistency that is necessary for me to show up as a responsible dad, husband, leader that's stewarding the blessings that I've been given well. And so for me, it's like, man, I'm not gonna drink alcohol in this season. Praise God, I was already not doing that, but that would not be helpful in this season, right? That could become way too easy of a crutch, right?
Speaker 1:Bible reading has to be an everyday thing. Prayer has to be an everyday thing. Intentional conversation with Aspen has to be an everyday thing. Those are all like the baseline, but then like consistent wake up time right now, like there's nights where we're getting three hours of sleep right now. And it's like, am I it would be foolish of me to be like, but I gotta hit 5AM.
Speaker 1:It's like, dude, you're an idiot, right? Like, go back to And so I'm actually learning a lot right now, and God is actually teaching Aspen and I both a lot right now of how do you practice healthy growth in a season of uncertainty that is conducive to unhealth? We're in early innings right now, but thus far, we're managing, right? That's, I think, mainly due to God and great community, but we're moving through it. Nothing has collapsed yet, and our marriage hasn't taken a toll, and we're not annoyed by our daughter.
Speaker 1:We still love our daughter, which is not a given whenever she's waking you up every single hour and a half. Yeah, so that's my most honest answer to that question.
Speaker 2:Thanks for sharing that. Alright. So we've we've walked through the four steps. Own it. Talk about it.
Speaker 2:Jolt your way out of it. And then the final one was practice healthy growth. So it sounds like we'll never be in a funk again and that, you know, life's life's just hunky dory. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I I know I know for a fact you're joking when you say that. Yeah. So what I see here now, and and I think this is how we should close, Ben, is, like, get that idea out of your head because that is a thought process that comes in the jolt. When you're doing a jolt and, like, dude, if you're at the end of five at five, you're on, like, the last day of five at five, you will think to yourself, I am never gonna experience hopelessness again for the rest of my life. Like, this is it's done.
Speaker 1:Right? And that's what 25 year old Alex thought. Right? Like, oh my gosh. I killed any negative emotion that will ever show up in my life ever again.
Speaker 1:I solved it. And when I had that naive thought, that immature thought, it crushed me whenever I found myself in a funk again, like, six months later or whatever it was. Mhmm. What I would say is anticipate you'll hit it again. You don't know when.
Speaker 1:You certainly don't want it, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. And then in the process of anticipating it, what do really mature, wise, effective leaders do? Three words, focus on the rate of recovery, right? The question is not, will you get into a funk? The question is, do you have a strategy for getting out of it?
Speaker 1:And are you going to apply yourself to that strategy? And what we're really sharing on this episode is the strategy, right? Own it, share it, jolt your way out of it and then practice healthy growth.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, is great.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Appreciate you, man. Thanks for the time. Well, there you have it. Thanks so much for joining us for this episode.
Speaker 1:If you want any of the information or resources that we mentioned, that's all in the show notes. Hey, before you go, could I ask you for one quick favor? Could you subscribe, rate, and review this podcast episode? Your feedback is what helps our team engage in a sequence of never ending improvement. We wanna amplify what's valuable to you and obviously reduce or even remove the things that aren't.
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Speaker 1:Remember, my strength is not for me. Your strength is not for you. Our strength is for service. Let's go. Let's go.
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