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A weekly show from the folks at East Lansing Info breaking down all the news and happenings in East Lansing, Michigan.
Hello, everyone. Today's episode of East Lansing Insider tackles a topic that isn't always the easiest to talk about, but given that it is child abuse prevention month, I figured we'd have a good opportunity here to talk about this subject that we cannot afford to ignore. This week, we're taking a closer look at the work happening at Smalltalk Children's Advocacy Center, a nonprofit organization here in Mid Michigan dedicated to supporting children and families affected by abuse. At its core, Smalltalk brings together professionals from across disciplines, law enforcement, health care, and advocacy, to help ensure children have a safe child centered environment where young survivors can be heard, supported, and begin to heal from abuse. I'm joined here today by executive director Alex Brace, who's helping to lead that mission every day, and I'm really looking forward to talking about what this work really looks like on the day to day, the challenges involved, and how communities like ours can step up to protect and support vulnerable children and their families.
Anna Liz Nichols:Like I said, this is an important conversation, so I'm really glad you're here for it. And thank you so much, Alex, for joining me here today.
Alex Brace:Yeah. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate any opportunity that we get to talk about the work that we do is is a valuable one, so I really appreciate the opportunity.
Anna Liz Nichols:Yeah. So, Alex, can you tell me a little bit about what this work at Smalltalk looks like on the day to day?
Alex Brace:Yeah. So Smalltalk is a nonprofit. We serve children in Ingham and Eaton Counties who have been sexually and physically abused. So anytime that happens, neither of those counties, law enforcement will contact us. They'll let us know that there's a child who is a reported victim of sexual or physical abuse.
Alex Brace:And then we provide a safe space for them to share their stories and make their disclosure in many instances for the very first time. So before places like ours existed, children would be interviewed at a police station for kids getting interviewed at the scene of their abuse, or back of a police car or, you know, at a school or out in the field. And we wanted to create a really child friendly safe environment for children to disclose their abuse, to report what happened to them, to do this in in a trauma focused and child friendly, space and center, where they're talking to an interviewer who is not a law enforcement officer, so not dressed in a uniform, you know, doesn't have a badge on, anything like that. It's somebody that, you know, looks no different than than you or me. They might look like you know, just to for the ease of the audience might look like a therapist that's, you know, meeting in a room with somebody even though what they're talking about is not therapeutic.
Alex Brace:And we provide them, again, like, this safe space to have a one on one conversation with somebody, and then that's what really helps jump start the investigative process. So, law enforcement is gonna be there. They'll be able to watch the interview as it's going on live, so that they can funnel all the questions through one interviewer. This way, we also don't have to put kids through the repeated interviews from multiple professionals where stories and and details can get misconstrued through the process, and it becomes tiresome for a kid to repeat their trauma over and over and over again, especially without no mental health support, in addition to that. So in addition to being able to provide that environment and that kind of collaboration with our law enforcement prosecution, CPS partners, we also provide, free therapy for every kid who engages in that process with us.
Alex Brace:So any kid who comes in for a forensic interview is also gonna have the opportunity to come back to small talk for free therapy for as long as they need it. And then we're also able to provide advocacy services as well, which would include, helping families connect with resources. You know, a big part of the work that we're doing is is dealing with the trauma. But I think what we've noticed over the years is that when people have experienced, you know, sexual abuse, child sexual abuse, it's not just that that they're dealing within their homes. There's there's food insecurity.
Alex Brace:There's financial concerns. There's education concerns. And our advocates really help families kind of build a base and a foundation, of basic needs. Because we know that when those things are taken care of, their ability to engage in therapy is gonna be much, much better, and they can engage in the healing process, you know, much more efficiently if they have basic needs taken care of. And then another so much of our work is very reactive when abuse happens, but we also have a proactive arm of our our organization as well.
Alex Brace:So we do a lot of, prevention work in the community as well on helping people understand how to react and respond to child abuse, you know, how to find safe adults, what consent means. Lots of really important conversations. I feel like we just don't have day to day that we really wanna encourage the community to take part of. So, we do a lot. You know, we're pretty busy here, you know, fortunately, unfortunately.
Alex Brace:But, you know, our our ultimate goal is one day to be able to do do this work well enough that we'll be able to close our doors and child abuse just won't be a problem in our community anymore.
Anna Liz Nichols:Yeah. Like you said, there's a bit of a taboo and a discomfort with talking about, you know, child abuse, especially childhood sexual violence. Given that April is not only child abuse prevention month, it's also sexual violence awareness month, I was wondering if we could talk a little bit more about the importance of talking about this, about creating awareness for this scourge that exists not only in our community, but in communities across the country.
Alex Brace:Absolutely. I think this is a it's a issue that we don't talk enough about. I think when I first started, I started Small Talk fifteen years ago, and I had no idea what a Children's Advocacy Center was. I didn't know I I knew that abuse happened, obviously, but it was something that was not talked about, you know, during my education, during, you know, my time in in higher education as well, you know, it was it was still very taboo. I think in a lot of respects, it still really is.
Alex Brace:I think, like, now I'm in a space professionally where this is where I talk about day to day, so it doesn't feel very taboo for me. But I understand that I'm I'm a bit of an outlier in that respect. But I think the conversations that we have had over the years, like, it's changed so substantially. I think when we when I started, you know, when I would go and, you know, tell people what I do, there was this real hesitancy from a lot of people to engage and continue to ask questions. I think, like, you know, fifteen years of time and getting the word out, I think that has changed substantially.
Alex Brace:I think, like, I'm able to have more thorough, more robust conversations like this with a person when I'm out at, like, a networking event or or something like that. But I think it is something that is incredibly pervasive, but it's still very much in the dark. Like, that's part of the issue or why we have so much work yet to do is that this is a crime that is steeped in secrecy. That's what allows it to continue and allows it to thrive. And the ability for you know?
Alex Brace:Or the lack of ability of us to be able to talk about it really enhances its ability to continue, you know, within our communities. So, you know, statistically, you know, one in seven children, will experience, you know, some sort of abuse before they turn the age of 18. This is a number that has increased just within the last two years. It used to be one in ten according to the CDC when they recently updated, I think, in 2024 to one in seven. So when you're talking about, like, that is a that's a significant amount of children.
Alex Brace:And then you also consider the fact that this is a really underreported crime, and that one in seven is is the best estimate that we have. We have to think that this is something that is actually happening more frequently than that one in seven rate that we're being given. And, you know, we, as an organization, we served, we did 220 or so forensic interviews last year, which was the second most that we've done in our history. And if you I really think about it. If you take that into context and if that's representative of, you know, the one in seven kids that are disclosing, you know, how many other kids are experiencing this, and we just don't have the space and the comfort to be able to have these open conversations with kids in our regular day to day lives.
Anna Liz Nichols:So Alex and I have talked in the past. Consistent East Lansing Insider listeners may know that my background is criminal justice reporting. And through that work, I've had conversations with many organizations, including Smalltalk. And I've seen their work in the community. So last year when I ran my first half marathon, I fundraised for them and their work.
Anna Liz Nichols:It's just so palpable when you hear the stories coming out of Smalltalk and how much kids get from that experience. Given, you know, the pervasiveness of this kind of abuse against younger victims, you mentioned how law enforcement has even recognized the the positive impact it can have that when someone only has to when a young person only has to tell their story one time in this system, like, the difference it makes. I know that you guys have stayed in contact or or people, you know, returned for therapy for long periods of time. What is the impact on a person's life when their story, when their healing is handled in an environment that is attuned to the needs of young people and is focused on not only the healing of that one young person, but also I know that you guys focus on on healing within the family as well.
Alex Brace:Yeah. That's a great question. I think that it's I mean, the healing part is absolutely critical. I know, you know, I started at Smalltalk as a therapist, and I think, you know, the criminal justice system can be really unpredictable. And nothing is a guarantee either.
Alex Brace:You take a case to court. You know, it's really those 12 jurors, you know, making that decision on, you know, if this person is guilty or innocent of this crime. And sometimes that doesn't always work out in the, you know, in my client's favor as as a therapist working with a kid. And I think, like, I have to constantly sort of remind myself and also remind them too that, like, their their job, one, if they have to testify is just to tell the truth, and tell their their side of the story and what they've experienced. But, also, my job as a therapist is to make sure that you live, like, a happy and healthy life regardless of what ends up happening in court.
Alex Brace:Like, I just want you to be healthy and feel safe and be able to, you know, achieve your goals and dreams, whatever it is that you have. Like, I want you to live a happy life. Like, that it's very simple and very complex at the same time, and it's asking sometimes that's asking a lot too when you're talking about somebody who has experienced maybe one of the worst experiences you can have as a human being. And, but I think that that's where, like, early intervention really becomes key. I think we can't wait for kids to be adults to start having these conversations about abuse.
Alex Brace:I think these are conversations that we have to have often and early. You know? And I think that we see the the impact of that. I think we've had multiple children who've, you know, come through our center, you know, as, you know, children and then, you know, come back as adults or, you know, have reached out to us. We just had a a therapist the other day who mentioned that, like, the very first client that she worked with, she just got word that she's graduating from high school.
Alex Brace:Like, you know, these are the this is, like, the kind of impact that we can have is we can, like, change the trajectory of people's lives by intervening early. And I think the other piece is, like, having that, like you mentioned, that coordinated response, I think, is so key because I think you could as a therapist, especially, like, I go into every situation feeling like not only do I have a team of people who are there to support me in this process, but this kid has a team of people. They have a detective who is investigating the case. They have a prosecutor who's gonna represent them in court. They have, you know, somebody from CPS who's gonna support their family.
Alex Brace:They have a medical professional who's gonna be there to make sure their body is okay. Like, we rather than us all being in these separate silos and not having conversations with each other, we do. And I think that that's really the the huge benefit of the the Children's Advocacy Center model is that it is naturally collaborative, and it forces us as professionals to hold each other accountable on behalf of the children and the families that we're serving. And I think that that's that's I feel like when I started doing this work, that was the thing that's the most shocking and most impressive to me was the collaboration. And there there have been so many times when I've been working with a kid and, you know, they're assigned, you know, to this really, like, amazing detective, and they have concerns about, like, where their case is.
Alex Brace:And, you know, we get a, you know, release signed, and we're like, hey. Can you you know, could you come down here maybe after a session to talk with, you know, this kid about, you know, some of their concerns about going to court? You know? And I think across the board, we've had great prosecutors and detectives who've been like, yeah. Tell me what time, and I'll be there.
Alex Brace:And I think if you don't have that sort of established relationship, you don't have that collaboration, you know, our kids don't get that kind of support. They miss out on some things that are really critical. So I that is one of the things I love most about doing this work is that we do have kids have team of people to support them from the time that they disclose and then throughout their healing journey.
Anna Liz Nichols:I'm remembering a conversation I had with last year with Claire that also works there about, you know, there is often this perception that organizations like Smalltalk, when you enter, it might be a a place of sadness, like a scary place. But she, in that conversation, recollected, like, how quickly that perception turned for her of you'd be surprised how much joy and and understanding and peace is at small talk. One thing I think you're leaving out personally is a certain member of staff.
Alex Brace:That puts in the
Anna Liz Nichols:the hours, I think.
Alex Brace:Yes. Not me. Yes. Our we have a dog at our office named Juno. So she is, like, our canine advocate.
Alex Brace:So she is actually able to be there for kids after and before they go in for their interviews. So that's a really I'm glad you brought that up and reminded me. Yes. Juno is really critical for us. I think, like, you know, dogs can really provide that kind of unconditional love and support that, you know, as as best as we can, humans just aren't as adept at it as as a dog is gonna be.
Alex Brace:So, you know, the amount of times that we'll have a kid who requests, you know, to have Juno come out before an interview. And I think, like, the sense of calm that it provides, to them, you know, on a day that's gonna be really difficult for them and to have, you know, something there to just give them, you know, whether it's courage or or hope or whatever. I think, like, just Juno's presence can kinda, like, do that without trying very hard. And I think, like, that that feels like one of those things where it's like, that's the least that we can do, you know, to help kids feel comfortable before they go into that room and and talk with somebody that they're just meeting on that day, you know, to have a really friendly dog come out and just sit with you for a little bit is, I think, something we all could probably benefit from and really enjoy.
Anna Liz Nichols:Yeah. Could you tell me a little bit about how the work at Smalltalk is is made possible? I know that there is a state funding factor. There is the federal factor, the the Victims of Crime Act funds. How is the work you guys do at Smalltalk made possible?
Alex Brace:I think our our the way that we are able to function is really collaborative. We can't do it with only, you know, one entity involved. We can't do it with just community support. We can't do it with just governmental support. It has to be sort of everybody involved in being really invested in protecting kids and keeping them safe.
Alex Brace:So, you know, a lot of like you mentioned, a lot of our money does come from the federal government. That is a pot of money that has unfortunately been dwindling over the last several years. So we're seeing decreases in that as time goes on. Been very, grateful and thankful that we've had a state who's helped to kinda, like, fill the gap, with some of that additional funding. But as need continues to rise, for our services, you know, and as things become more expensive just on a very, like, practical, like, business related level, like, you know, more funding is always gonna be necessary.
Alex Brace:And, you know, we have we always approach, I think, every case from we want kids to have the absolute best service possible. And I think with what we have, we give them the best. But can we give them more? Absolutely. We can.
Alex Brace:And do they deserve it? Absolutely. They do. You know? And, you know, we're very lucky here in in the Lansing area that we have, you know, great local support from from funders and donors and and corporations that are here, that have been very generous, you know, and just being able to provide funding for us to continue to do the work that we do.
Alex Brace:All of our services, I had mentioned this before, but everything that we provide is provided at no cost. So we also don't want that to be prohibitive of somebody saying, like, they have to choose between, like, going to therapy and, you know, paying for something else that's, a basic need. This should be think we we've kinda changed our language from, like, this being an opportunity for somebody for this being a right to every victim who's experienced abuse. And we wanna make sure we wanna live by that, that sort of credo that every every kid has a right to receive the services that we're able to offer, and we wanna make it accessible for them. The only way for us to do that is to continue to, you know, offer it at no cost, and continue to sort of get that fundraising support, that support from the government and, you know, at the federal level, state level, local level.
Alex Brace:Then it's really important for us to diversify that too because we don't wanna be solely dependent on any one source of funding, because those things can go away. So we wanna make sure that, you know, we know too and the donors know that, you know, when we're asking for funds, we're not asking for you to fund to the entire mission. We're asking you to be a part of this with many, many other people, whereas Jess is invested in, like, the safety and security of the children in her community as as the next person.
Anna Liz Nichols:I had said earlier that we were gonna talk about maybe how members of the Mid Michigan community can whether that be through small talk or just in their day to day conversations, behaviors, and awareness, how we all can help fight against child abuse and and and, like you said, hopefully, make organizations like yours make it so it's so unnecessary.
Alex Brace:Yeah. Yeah. I think I I would love to, you know, be put out of a job because there's nothing left for us to do. I think we're a ways away from that. But I think if that's always sort of our goal at the end of the day, I think we're always heading in the right direction.
Alex Brace:I think the the biggest ways I think that people can support us like, funding is always gonna be very important for us. We, you know, we have great staff here. We wanna, you know, keep them here and, you know, grow our staff potentially at some point too to be able to offer more services for more people as the need continues to rise. You know? But I think that the sort of beginnings or the, like, origin of that too is, like, is really the awareness building.
Alex Brace:I think it's really important for people to understand that this is a very pervasive problem in our community, that this is not something that happens to one particular group or in one particular community. Unfortunately, child abuse is a crime that does not discriminate against anybody. Just by virtue of being a child, you're at risk. And that does not matter if you are a child growing up in Lansing, East Lansing, Okemos. Every place has some of this going on, unfortunately.
Alex Brace:And I think there are a lot of misconceptions about child abuse as well. I think, you know, growing up, you know, we were always taught stranger danger, and that was really the concern that it's the guy in the, you know, white panel van who's passing out, you know, candy and asking for help finding his puppy that's gonna be the person that's gonna harm children. And we know statistically that that's not the case. Most of the time, it's gonna be somebody that you know. You know, these crimes are very different from other crimes that get investigated, you know, at the at the law enforcement level where a lot most of the time, the vast majority of the time, we know who the offender is or we have an idea of who the alleged offender is.
Alex Brace:And we, you know, and these kids know these people, and they have relationships with them. And it can be really hard, I think, to be an adult who, ultimately, we are the ones who are most responsible for the safety and protection of our children. We shouldn't put that burden on them. That should be really on us as adults. It can be really hard for us to then, you know, start to question some relationships that we have or some people's motives or to ask really difficult questions that might make things awkward and uncomfortable.
Alex Brace:But I think when you talk about, like, children's safety, there is nothing that is too awkward or too uncomfortable, you know, when it comes to protecting a child. So I really wanna, you know, encourage people in the community to to learn more about child abuse, use us as a resource. Like I mentioned before, we have a we have a prevention arm of our our work, of our program that, you know, that is that sole mission is to get the word out about how important it is to have conversations about child abuse. I think, like like many nonprofits, I think we're a place where nobody really wants to come. Like, I think if somebody is being told that they have to come to small talk, it's because something really bad happened, you know, in their family.
Alex Brace:And I think it's really important for people to understand that, like, when we talk about an investment in in small talk, we talk about an investment in the community. This is a place where, you know, we all probably have a relationship with some sort of child in our life that we we truly care about and want the best for. And we want to make sure that we live in a community where if that happens to a child that we care about, that they have a place that they can go, that they have resources that are readily accessible to them. You know, having grown up in the Lansing area and lived here for most of my life, I think about that constantly growing up. I don't have an abuse history myself, but I think about, you know, interactions that I had with, you know, kids that I grew up with or behaviors that I saw or things that I heard them say.
Alex Brace:And I think about this, you know, not to date myself too much, but, you know, like, twenty some years ago, you know, when I was in school, there was no small talk. There was no place for, you know, my classmates, my peers to go and share their story that it breaks my heart to think about, like, were they holding on to secrets or, you know, feelings that they just had no place to to share them. And I think what I feel so encouraged about now, what kinda gets me out of bed every morning, is the reminder that now we don't have to say that anymore. Now we can say that we do have a space for kids to go when something really bad happens and that, like, there is a bit of a a protective shield around the community knowing that this is a resource that is available. So God forbid, if something happens to a child, we don't have to throw up our hands and say, I don't know what to do next.
Alex Brace:I don't know how to help you. Small talk is the the answer to that question. Like I said, we offer therapy services at no cost to every child who comes through our doors. So we're seeing kids ages three to 18, all of whom have who have experienced abuse. We have four therapists on staff.
Alex Brace:I provide a bit of therapy too. So so I guess there's technically five of us that provide therapy. And I for me, you know, that being sort of my background and and, you know, how I got started here, like, that feels like a very important part of the programming, what we offer. Because, again, early intervention is really key. We wanna make sure the kids aren't, you know, continuing to to suffer in silence, and not have a space where they can share, their experiences and have, like, a a trained professional who can talk through this with them.
Alex Brace:I think one of the ways that I've really turned into liking to describe it is it's not so much about sort of, like, throwing that kid, you know, you know, with us or, like, dragging them behind us to to a space of healing. It's more, I think, a lot of times, like, sitting with them in it and being sort of a companion for them as they kind of, like, figure out how they are gonna navigate this, like, new version of themselves as opposed to abuse version of themselves. How are they gonna heal from that? And I think our therapists can be really great guides in that process. And then thinking too about just, like, the long term health of of our community as a whole, if we have, you know, more children who are receiving the treatment that they need, they grow into healthy adults.
Alex Brace:They don't have to utilize, you know, the criminal justice. You won't be involved in the criminal justice system or juvenile justice system. We can keep them out of the medical system. A lot of times when we have kids who have untreated trauma, they're experiencing, you know, suicidal ideation, self harm, depression, anxiety. You know?
Alex Brace:And those things, you know, they need a lot of resources, rightfully so, and, you know, they may utilize resources that are much more expensive than the ones that we offer too. So we can alleviate some costs at the outset by intervening with kids early, staving off some of those really negative, you know, mental health and physical health symptoms by just providing a safe space for them to share their stories. That feels like a win win for everybody. Like, that's something that I think everybody can get behind. You know, if we have healthier adults, like, our communities are gonna be safer.
Alex Brace:We can end the cycle of abuse. I think we're already doing that now with many of the kids that we're seeing is, you know, they are they are being informed and empowered by the work that we're able to do with them, you know, and they're standing up for their friends at school. They are standing up for their siblings. They're gonna grow into adults that that will be aware of of child abuse and will help keep children and their lives safe as adults. And I think, like, if that's sort of the legacy that we can leave to as an organization, that is you know, it's worth every second that we put into this place.
Anna Liz Nichols:You talked a little bit about the work you guys do in the community, you know, face to face connecting and and these prevention programs. I was wondering when you have these interactions, when you're talking to members of the community, and given that this is mayhaps an another opportunity to talk to the MidMichigan community
Alex Brace:Yeah.
Anna Liz Nichols:What is the message to families and young people who, you know, may be experiencing these adverse happenings in their lives and may think that there's no opportunity for healing, there's no avenue for justice, that the reality of what is is. What is the the message small talk, you know, has for those individuals?
Alex Brace:I think, I mean, hope is my favorite word, and I think that's the one that I kinda carry with me all the time that there this is an opportunity for hope. Like, we get one of our staff put it really great. Like, we get to be facilitators. Like, even in, like, the worst situation, I think their healing is always possible. And that I know that may not always feel that way, and that's probably very easy for me to say as as a therapist.
Alex Brace:It might sound kind of biased, but I truly would like every bone in my body believe that that is something that is true and accessible. And I think, like, don't want, you know, the the fear of things can't get better. This is my lot in life. I'm gonna be defined by this experience for the rest of my life. I don't want that to be a barrier for somebody to get the help that they need.
Alex Brace:I think, you know, our our goal for every kid that we see here, regardless of whatever end of the programming they're utilizing is, you know, we don't want them to be defined by their experience. There's so much more to every kid that we see beyond their abuse and their their story of abuse. I mean, you mentioned it before. Like, I think we we operate with a great level of joy and you know, at our organization. And I think that that's necessary not only for, like, morale and to, you know, just allow us to continue to do this really hard work, but I think, like, kids feed off of that.
Alex Brace:They see it when they walk in the door that we are we are happy to be here. We are happy to help. We are you know, this is it's not just our job to be to be kind and helpful for them. It's it feels like our it's a mission for us. Like, we want every kid to feel that way.
Alex Brace:And I think to create that kind of environment, if there are there are people out there that are hearing this that are concerned about, like, if I report, you know, what's gonna happen, there are negative circumstance. These are not easy things to do. There will be consequences that will not be pleasant, you know, inevitably by reporting. We see that with the you know, with many kids. Like, you know, if you if, you know, we have, for example, a kid who's been, you know, sexually abused by, you know, a caregiver in their household or breadwinner, and that person has to leave, That can be a barrier for somebody disclosing because they're like, I don't wanna upend my life.
Alex Brace:I don't wanna have to move. I don't wanna have to lose relationships with my family. You know, lots of unfortunately, lots of times those things do happen. And I think that, you know, ultimately, it's it can be really hard to kinda look, you know, ten, twenty years down the road, but I think it's important to do that. And I think it's important to know that, like, regardless of the potential negative consequences of disclosing, you know, small talk is a place where we can help to mitigate that as much as possible.
Alex Brace:You know, the advocacy part of our name is really important. Like, that is our role. You know, if there there's concerns about reporting because of, you know, a relationship with law enforcement or CPS or prosecution. Like, we are advocates. We are here to support you in that process.
Alex Brace:If there's somebody that you feel like is not doing right by your family, like, that is our goal too is we're here to walk with you every step of the way through every, you know, process. We're lucky that we live in a community. I know you've talked to a lot of these people already on this podcast, but, you know, we're in a community with a lot of great nonprofits, a lot of great resources that we have relationships with. Like, we are all in collaboration and communication on how we can work better together and make sure that we're meeting the needs of of our community. You know?
Alex Brace:So I don't want those things to it's easier said than done, of course, but I don't want those things to be a barrier. And I want people to to know and understand that, like, of what you're coming in with, like, we're gonna meet you where you're at, you know, and we'll be we're here with you through your entire healing journey knowing that that, you know, comes in waves and it's not linear. You know, we're here for all of it, and we're we're prepared and ready to to support.
Anna Liz Nichols:Thank you so much for this conversation, Alex, and thank you for sharing, you know, the ins and outs and the mission of Small Talk Children's Advocacy Center. I I really appreciate this conversation.
Alex Brace:Of course. Thank you for the opportunity.