Should You Tell Your Wife About Your Secret Struggle?

🎙️ Episode 26 – Should You Tell Your Wife About Your Secret Struggle?

If you’re stuck in a cycle of secrecy and guilt—and wondering whether to open up to your wife—this episode is for you.

Zach Carter and Mark Odland explore the deeper emotional and relational impact of hidden struggles, especially screen-based habits that damage trust and intimacy. They unpack when (and how) to have the hard conversation—and how truth, grace, and strategy can lead to real healing.

👉 Ready for the next step? SCHEDULE A FREE, 30-MINUTE CONSULT with Mark or Zach at: https://escapethecagenow.com/call/

🔍 In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• The hidden costs of private digital behaviors
• Whether (and how) to open up to your spouse
• What honesty looks like without shame-dumping or retraumatizing
• Why your wife should NOT be your accountability partner
• When to seek outside support—and how we can help

📢 Whether you're married, dating, or single—this episode speaks directly to men who want to break free, rebuild trust, and walk in integrity.

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’

About the Show:

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the lions they were created to be. Hosted by Mark Odland, Certified EMDR Therapist, and Zach Carter, Counselor & Coach, we tackle real issues—masculinity, identity, relationships, purpose, and faith—with honesty and courage.

Creators and Guests

Host

Mark Odland

Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist

Host

Zack Carter

Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Mark Odland: 00:00

Welcome everyone to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Oddland, founder of Lion Counseling and certified EMDR therapist.

Zack Carter: 00:06

And I'm Zach Carter, counselor and coach, and also the man who couldn't choose a shirt today, he chose all of them.

Mark Odland: 00:15

I wasn't gonna say it. I'm glad it came from you, Zach. You know, our mission our mission is to help men to break free, including breaking free from certain fashion choices. For sure. But, you know, heal deep and become the lions they were created to be.

Mark Odland: 00:32

So joking aside, this podcast, today is is a is a good one. This is something that a lot of, guys struggle with, is pornography. Right? It's one of those things where even, for a lot of our our Christian listeners out there, we are not immune from that being a real temptation. Right?

Mark Odland: 00:50

And, and for most guys who struggle with that, they're at a kind of a crossroads when it comes to the marriage. Right? Do I confess to my wife and risk the fallout, or do I keep it hidden and hope it fades away, try to kind of manage it myself behind the scenes? And so, in this episode, we're gonna unpack the potential risks and rewards and and that deeper path, hopefully toward integrity and healing and solidifying and rebuilding trust with with our spouses as as you kinda go through that journey of healing. So, hang on till the end because, we we got lots of good stuff to share with you.

Mark Odland: 01:27

And since you're already here, if you could hit that subscribe button, we'd really appreciate it. We're we're just kind of blowing through this 10,000 subscriber mark, and and that's thanks to you. So we wanna keep the the momentum going. So, alright. I think I think we're ready to go.

Mark Odland: 01:43

Let's let's jump right in, Zach.

Zack Carter: 02:10

Definitely. So I just kinda wanna start with a few assumptions, you know, based on people who are clicking. Most people who are clicking on this are probably assuming, to start with, that porn is unhealthy and can be destructive in your personal life. Know, helping guys get out of porn addiction was one of the reasons I got into the field. And so, you know, it causes a lot of problems.

Zack Carter: 02:32

If we just even remove it from marriage, it can if you do it long enough and if you do it enough, we're starting to see a rise in porn induced erectile dysfunction. Guys want to have those erections, man. Don't want to get rid of those erections. So it can cause worsening anxiety, worsening depression, low self esteem, lack of motivation. When you understand how the dopamine systems work, porn's a super normal stimulus.

Zack Carter: 02:56

And so if you're watching porn on a regular basis and you're like, why can't I get myself to do anything? Porn might be a factor in the equation. In marriages, it can reduce marital satisfaction, it can reduce sexual satisfaction. Right? Porn has a tendency of increasing a desire for more porn while decreasing a desire in real actual healthy sex.

Zack Carter: 03:15

So Mhmm. Just wanted to start there off the bat before we even get into the discussion around should you tell your wife about it? So if you're on board, you're like, okay, I don't wanna do this anymore. Should I even tell my wife? My brief answer is yes.

Zack Carter: 03:30

I'm speaking very broadly. You would have to come to me with like a super extenuating circumstance. Sure. Sure. And so I'm I'm open.

Zack Carter: 03:38

If you've got, like, hey, here's all the things that are going on, you know, and it might also be a timing issue. Right? Maybe not right this second, but at a at a certain point you should. And so where do I start with guys usually on if they're like, okay, I'm sold. I'm gonna tell my wife Yeah.

Zack Carter: 03:57

What should I do? First thing I say is it's typically best to start when you're dating. So letting them know. Not on the first date. So I've had clients that let all the women know first date, like, hey, I just wanna be open and honest.

Zack Carter: 04:12

I struggle with porn. I'm like, may maybe we should wait a little bit. So Yeah. Kind of the rule of thumb that I tell guys is about three months in. Right?

Zack Carter: 04:21

So three months in is enough where, like, they kinda get the gist of who you are. They're getting to know that, like, you're a good person. You have good values. But it's not so deep into the relationship. You're not, like, engaged and then letting them know.

Zack Carter: 04:33

And then now they have to, like, decide whether they're gonna tell their friends and family they wanna not get married because you're struggling with porn. So wanting to get into that, know, relative sweet spot three or four months in so that they can make a decision on, like, hey, this is something I can deal with or no. This is not something I can deal with. Do you have any thoughts so far on on this, Mark?

Mark Odland: 04:56

I think that, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense in I mean, just intuitively because I I I get that some people I mean, at first, my instinct was to kind of laugh like, oh, why would you do that on the first date? But I guess there's some guys who really wanna start off with complete honesty. Mhmm. And but I I do think I think that makes sense that you'd wait a little bit because it's not that you're all about keeping secrets forever. It's that you want to give enough time for them to see more of the full you.

Mark Odland: 05:23

Right. Because they're gonna have a distorted view of who you are, the full picture of who you are, if that's what you lead with. And and not only that, but I feel like there's a huge maybe, education gap from for a lot of females about the unique struggles that guys have and and and what a what temptation can look like for them. And and so there can be a lot of conclusions that they might jump to right away if that's the first thing you lead with that just might not be accurate. Right?

Zack Carter: 05:53

Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 05:54

So so I'm tracking with you so far, Zach. I think I think that's and what you're speaking aloud is, you know, like you said, it depends on context. But, yeah, the the probably a good idea to tell, but we're that's the rest of our talk right now is, like, what that looks like.

Zack Carter: 06:11

Right? Exactly. How to actually do that. Yeah. And and the reverse would also be true.

Zack Carter: 06:16

Like, if you're on a first date and she's like, I just wanna let you know I'm in $80,000 of debt. It's like, yeah, that's a factor that you need to factor into the equation, but it would be good to understand this the full person, not just the downsides of this not just the mistakes this person made, but like understand everything within context because she might be awesome, but, yeah, here's a problem that you guys are gonna have to work through. So, yeah, I typically say about three three or four months in is a is a good time to do it. What I also typically tell guys is that whether you're dating or married, I recommend not using your wife as accountability partner. So that's Mhmm.

Zack Carter: 07:00

That I would shy away from. I've had a few clients who did use their wife and it was very traumatic for the wife, especially if there's like blocking software on the computer, they can see what you're looking at. That's just not information they need to know, right? Which kind of leads me into another point, which is you you also don't have to give too many details. Like, you can give the gist of, like, hey.

Zack Carter: 07:20

Look. This has been a problem for me since I was 14 or 12 or eight for some guys or five for some guys. Mhmm. Right? This has been this you know, I got introduced to this by finding my uncle's Playboys or a VHS tape that my grandfather had in the house.

Zack Carter: 07:36

And I saw it when I was six years old. Right? And so, yeah, you can share that. You can share, you know, it's this has been a struggle for a while for me since then, you know, and here, you know, and I'm and I'm working on it. Here are the things I'm doing to work on it.

Zack Carter: 07:51

So you don't need to give what kinds of things you're watching. Right? You don't you you may or may not need to share how often it's happening, but, you know, give enough for her to get the gist, but not so much that it's traumatic for her.

Mark Odland: 08:06

Yeah. That's really interesting, Zach, because I I guess from what you're describing, it sounds like maybe the the the kind of disclosure is a little bit different than what might be suggested for, say, a physical affair Mhmm. Where where someone the, you know, the the person who was cheated on wants to know all the details, and the instinct is for the guy to just just let out just enough to kinda trickle it out to appease them. But then it just, like, never the bleeding never stops. It's like, oh, that happened too.

Mark Odland: 08:35

Oh, you met at this place. Oh, this happened at the house. Mhmm. And Mhmm. This idea of from the Gottmans of after an affair is, like, you're in the atonement phase for a while.

Mark Odland: 08:45

You're just kinda, like, full transparency. You're getting it all out there. But it sounds like even though some people might equate pornography from a religious standpoint with infidelity Mhmm. It is a diff it it you know, I could see how people could do that, but it is a different behavior, with kind is that fair to say, or or do you feel do you feel like it it applies both ways?

Zack Carter: 09:06

Yeah. So if we're talking about dating, like, you weren't even with this person at the time, so you weren't cheating on them. Right? And so if it's in a marriage and I'm kinda, like, leading up to, okay. Well, I'm already married.

Zack Carter: 09:18

What do I do? Like, we're we're gonna we're we're kinda moving towards that. You know, it might look a little bit different in that in the sense that, like, you know, the reason probably one of the reasons your wife is gonna be asking you, well, what about this? What about that? What about that?

Zack Carter: 09:32

They wanna feel safe. They wanna know that they're safe in their own home. And if, you know, you were doing it in the bathroom and they're like, oh, so I can't trust you in the bathroom. I can't trust you with taking technology into the bathroom. Okay.

Zack Carter: 09:48

So that's like them feeling safe and saying like, okay, we need to have some boundaries. You're not taking your phone or the computer the bathroom. Right? It might be, Oh, I, you know, I use the TV when you're gone during the day. Okay, well that makes sense now to the wife.

Zack Carter: 10:04

Okay, then what do we got to do to make sure that when I'm gone for the day that you're not using the TV? So in a marriage, might look a little bit different where a little bit more details need to be had. But once again, steering clear stuff like she doesn't need to know what you were looking at. She doesn't need to know what kind of preferences you have. That's not appropriate.

Zack Carter: 10:24

Because porn is a super normal stimulus. It's a fantasy. Most of the things that are happening in these videos can't happen in real life. They're not. She can't be five people.

Zack Carter: 10:36

Right? She can only be one person. She can't change her race, and she can't there's a lot of things that can't happen. Right? And so a lot of that stuff can just be more damaging than helpful.

Zack Carter: 10:47

Right?

Mark Odland: 10:48

Right. And then, like, some of your other great videos, Zach, about cognitive behavioral therapy and automatic negative thoughts, it seems like that just feeds that could potentially feed more and more ants. Oh, well, they're into this. They they don't like me for who I am. I'm not good enough.

Mark Odland: 11:03

And

Zack Carter: 11:03

then Right.

Mark Odland: 11:03

It's like, what do I have to compete with? And it's like your brain is trying to make all these jumps to try to feel safe, but it actually is a losing battle. Because, like you said, you're competing with this fantasy that's not even grounded in Yeah. In a real relationship.

Zack Carter: 11:17

Yeah. So you gotta be discerning. And so, like, if she's asking a lot like, so if you're married, if she's asking a lot of questions, you do have to be discerning on, you know, maybe ask, hey. Just so I understand, why is this a detail that you you feel like you wanna know? Is this is a is this a detail you you need to know, or is this a detail you wanna know?

Zack Carter: 11:37

And there is a difference between those two things. And so if if it makes logical sense, like, hey, you know, where is this occurring in the house? That makes sense. Yeah. Okay.

Zack Carter: 11:51

This you it's know, occurring in the bathroom, it's occurring in the bedroom when you're gone during the day. It's okay. Then, like, we're trying to form a plan to make sure this doesn't keep happening. But if it's a detail of what are your preferences, that tends not to be helpful.

Mark Odland: 12:08

Yeah. Makes sense.

Zack Carter: 12:10

Yeah. So what do you do if you're married? So, like, that so here's the question. Right? You're like, alright, Zach, you know, okay.

Zack Carter: 12:15

Ideally, I would have let her know, but I didn't. Okay. So what do I do? You know, I've heard a few different opinions on this. I've heard some people say Sure.

Zack Carter: 12:23

You want six months of sobriety. Some some people in the sobriety field say, okay, get six months of sobriety before telling your wife. I, that makes me nervous. The reason that makes me nervous is that you can prolong telling her indefinitely. If you relapse on the five month mark, okay, does that mean you're starting over now?

Zack Carter: 12:43

And so like, okay, so now I, now it's a year before you tell her. Right? If you have another relapse, okay. Now it's a year and a half. Now it's two years.

Zack Carter: 12:50

Now it's five years. No. No. No. No.

Zack Carter: 12:53

No. So for for me, I do think it's about, hey, what are the things that you've been implementing that you can share with her that you've been doing? Hey, just so you know, I've been attending counseling, I've been attending groups, a group, sobriety groups. I've gotten rid of a lot of technology, I've I've put blockers on different things, and I've got people on the other end. Mhmm.

Zack Carter: 13:18

I'm being intentional about exercising, about not being in the house when you're not here. Like, here's a lot of things that I've been doing to try to improve, you know, but I I I'm, you know, finding it very difficult to overcome this thing. I wanted to make sure that you didn't just come across this thing and just find out because that happens a lot. Like, guys don't think it happens. That happens a lot.

Zack Carter: 13:39

You forget to delete a browser. You forget to hide specific things and your wife comes across it and then super traumatic. Right? So, hey, I wanted you to know. Here's what I'm doing to work on it, and then you have to have a conversation.

Zack Carter: 13:54

Right? Have a difficult conversation.

Mark Odland: 13:56

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And and I think it's really helpful the way you're even framing it. And because I know that for so many guys, there's there's just so much shame around this.

Mark Odland: 14:05

Mhmm. Especially I mean, even more so for the for the Christian guys who are listening to this. It's just it feels like that can just heap on more and more shame, more and more guilt, more and more secrecy and isolation. And and but I think that even the way you framed it on that date, right, when someone drops a bomb, hey. I'm $80,000 in debt, or or if you're the person you're dating is saying, you know what?

Mark Odland: 14:25

I struggle with shopping too much. I struggle with overeating. We have a tendency as guys, especially as Christian guys, to say, this is the one sin that feels like the unforgivable sin, the the worst, the the monstrous one, the the one that makes you know what I mean? And, yes, it can wreck your life if if it gets out of hand, and it is something to take seriously, right, and to work through and heal from. But we've all got struggles.

Mark Odland: 14:52

We've all got struggles. Our wives have struggles. We have struggles because we're human. And I'd like to believe that even though it's difficult to navigate, if we can be honest and thoughtful and strategic and loving about how we navigate these things, we can't control our spouse, but man, what a gift it is if there is a spouse that can walk with us, you know, walk with men through that journey.

Zack Carter: 15:15

Mhmm. Yeah. I'm I'm so glad you said that because a a lot of guys think that they're gonna be rejected if they share. Sometimes that happens. Like, we can't pretend like that doesn't happen.

Zack Carter: 15:26

But if you've got this thing that you think is, like, the worst thing about you and you tell your girlfriend or you tell your wife, and they're like, okay. Like, I don't I don't like this, but I care about you, and let's try to get it figured out.

Mark Odland: 15:43

Mhmm. Oh,

Zack Carter: 15:44

suddenly the worst thing about you, they still accept you. They still love you. Right? And so that's the reward on the other end. Right?

Zack Carter: 15:52

And if she says I can't deal with this, that's good to know too. Right? Yeah. So especially if you're especially if you're dating, okay, might be I might have to find somebody who either can can be okay with that or, you know, that just kinda puts that fire under your butt to be like, alright, man. Let me continue to work on the sobriety.

Zack Carter: 16:13

Let me continue to get better. Let me add more things to my list of things to do to kinda get out of this.

Mark Odland: 16:19

Yeah. Yeah. That that's huge. I mean and I think there is a lot of room for it it's a it's a tension. Right?

Mark Odland: 16:27

It's a dynamic tension between taking ownership for our behaviors as men and accountability to to deal with things. And at the very same time to know there are reasons, probably, like you said, most you gotta do a sexual history assignment with guys in counseling or therapy, and you you trace it back. You know, you you see that early porn exposure at age, like you said, eight, 10, 12 years old. It's like, it's not surprising at all. It's like the norm.

Mark Odland: 16:54

It's the norm. Right? And most guys, even with fairly healthy childhoods, got exposed to some stuff that kinda stuck with them, kinda messed them up a little bit. And it's been a shame they've carried for decades, decades. Right?

Mark Odland: 17:08

And so I guess that's just my way of saying is it's not about woe is me. I'm a victim, and you wallow in that, you have no power. But it's also not I'm just gonna grit my teeth and I'm just a horrible person, you know what I mean? It's like the nature of addiction is yeah, there are choices involved, but there's a quality to it that makes it not as simple as just choosing the right path every time. There has to be a process.

Mark Odland: 17:35

Right?

Zack Carter: 17:35

Right. Like, porn literally shrinks your free prefrontal cortex if you're watching it enough. That's literally shrinking your thinking, your processing, your ability to make good decisions. Right? And then the other areas in your brain, the pleasure centers grow bigger and bigger and bigger.

Zack Carter: 17:51

And so then it becomes harder and harder and harder to quit. Doesn't mean it's impossible. Mhmm. Otherwise, I I wouldn't have gone into that field to help guys. Right?

Zack Carter: 17:56

And so if you're struggling with this, like, reach out to us. Like, this is what I

Mark Odland: 17:59

For sure.

Zack Carter: 18:00

This is my specialty, man. This is what I help a lot of guys with. But That's right. Ultimately, you know, it's a it's most of the time, it's a survival thing. It's, hey, when I was little and I got rejected by my parents or I got rejected by girls or I got made fun of, here's this thing that made me feel better.

Zack Carter: 18:20

And

Mark Odland: 18:21

That's right.

Zack Carter: 18:22

When your brain is eight, it's the the the largest parts of the survival parts of your brain and the smallest parts of that executive function. And that thinking through consequences is not as big yet. Right? We you have to be 25 for all that to be fully developed. And so your brain forms around this idea that, like, here's the thing that's gonna fix my problems.

Zack Carter: 18:44

And so it doesn't mean you're a bad person, but it is your job to change and to improve. That's And there are ways to do it. And so, you know, so you get a choice in your marriage, like, hey, I'm either gonna be open and honest in my marriage and be the person I actually am and and let my wife know who I really am. And hopefully, she accepts me. Hopefully, she continues to love me.

Zack Carter: 19:12

That's been the tendency that I've seen. Not not always. Mhmm. Not always. But that's been the tendency I've seen.

Zack Carter: 19:19

And, hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna use that as a way to continue to improve, and she might be able to help you some. Like I said, it's not accountability partner way, but there are some things that your wife can do that could potentially help you and encourage you.

Mark Odland: 19:32

So Yeah. I love that, Zach. Yeah. I mean, I think I could I could imagine guys listening right now. They're like, man, I've deep down in my gut, I know I was supposed to tell her.

Mark Odland: 19:42

Now this Zach guy, he's telling me, yeah, it might be a good idea. And it's it's there can be some trepidation there still, even even the logic lines up. Right? Yeah. That that kind of, like, nervous feeling in the pit of your stomach and your heart, know, you're like, oh, man.

Mark Odland: 19:56

This is happening. Like, it can be it can be hard. And and so but at the end of the day, right, like you said, you can't control your spouse. Sometimes it doesn't go well, but a lot of times it does. Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 20:09

And I think the truth is as guys, you know, we we deserve to be in relationships with people. They they can have bound our spouse can have boundaries for sure, but we also need grace in our relationships. We need grace from our our wives, and they need grace from us. And and so so, yeah, I think that's a that's a big decision to make, but it's funny when people ask the question, a lot of times they already know the answer. They're just not sure what to how to do it.

Mark Odland: 20:36

Right? They just are not sure what that looks like. Do you feel like that's a just a really personal, like, unique unique to each guy? Like, how he actually does it, like how like very specifically, it's like do you take them out for dinner? Do you say, hey, I gotta talk to you about something?

Mark Odland: 20:54

Is there is it just is there anything that tends to work better than others in your experience, Zach, or is it just kinda like you rip off the Band Aid as imperfectly as you do it and and just see, you know

Zack Carter: 21:06

Yeah. See what happens. The rip off the Band Aid idea. Because I I think I think what what could happen is that you try to find the perfect time and you keep procrastinating. So be wise.

Zack Carter: 21:17

Don't choose, like, the day that, you know, your wife got fired from her job and the kids are screaming and Yeah. Like, yeah. Sure. But don't Mhmm. Like, don't let the don't let the perfect get in the way of the good.

Zack Carter: 21:33

Like, pick a day that's fairly reasonable if you know that, like, hey, Saturday because here's the here's the thing that's gonna go through your head. It's gonna be like, oh, she had a bad day. I don't wanna tell her today. And then you have a Saturday where things are going well. Well, things are going well today.

Zack Carter: 21:48

I don't wanna ruin a good day. So you can literally rationalize your way out of it no matter what. So, like, it's grit your teeth. Say, hey, babe. I love you I care about you.

Zack Carter: 22:00

There's something I've been struggling with for a while, and I felt like it's not fair to you that I haven't told you. And so I did wanna be open and honest because I want us to be close. I want us to be honest in the relationship. And since I was a kid, I've I've really struggled with porn. And it's a thing I'm ashamed of, and it's a thing that I'm mad at myself for.

Zack Carter: 22:21

And, you know, I'm really willing to do whatever I've gotta do to make sure that our marriage is healthy. And this is just something I I didn't wanna have to share this, but I I I knew I did. And then you engage in a difficult conversation that probably lasts longer than you want. She's probably gonna be hurt, and you deal with it. And then you move through.

Zack Carter: 22:41

If you need couples counseling, you do couples counseling. If you need individual counseling, do individual counseling. Right? If you need to go to a group, you start going to a group. Right?

Zack Carter: 22:48

And you say, like, here's what I wanna do. Like, here's the plan moving forward on how I'm gonna get better.

Mark Odland: 22:54

Yeah. I love that, Zach. That is that's beautiful. I mean, this is that's that's what Zach just said. I mean, if you guys are getting nervous, not that you have to do it Zach's way, but that was just as I was hearing you say that, it just it just came off as so authentic and just, heartfelt and honest.

Mark Odland: 23:10

I mean, I think everyone's gonna have guy every guy's gonna put their own spin on it, but that kind of way that you deliver that is kind of, I think, a really good template, for guys to loosely base on how they might do a conversation like that if they don't know where to start.

Zack Carter: 23:22

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 23:22

Yeah. That's really good.

Zack Carter: 23:24

Thanks, Mark. Well, that's all I got for today. Any any final thoughts on your end? Well,

Mark Odland: 23:30

the only thing is I've gotta I've gotta brag about Zach here for a second because I've worked with him for a while now. And I you you may not say this directly, but, Zach, I know that you're very good, very good at what you do, especially in this area of behavioral addiction. And so I I'm grateful to be on the team with you, doing that work. And so if if if that's something where you guy you know, you guys listening, you've ever not you're not you're not taking that step to actually reach out and get a little extra support, I know Zach would be happy to work with you. And we can create a customized treatment plan for you, a treatment program even, where Zach's going through all the stuff that he does.

Mark Odland: 24:07

And then if it turns out there's trauma involved, then we can tag team and we can do some EMDR to heal some of the deep trauma that might be fueling someone on top of it. So you can get a really comprehensive healing process working with us at Lion Counseling. So that's not I'm not gonna do a hard sell on that. That that's but just know that we're here if if that might be something you're interested in. And and we're happy to do a free free consult over Zoom, you know, fifteen minutes, half hour, just get to know you, hear your story, and see if it might be a good fit to to work with us.

Mark Odland: 24:38

So go to escapethecagenow.com if you're interested, wanna learn more. And as as always, hit that subscribe button. We really appreciate it so you can get more content like this. And and drop some comments. What's your own experience?

Mark Odland: 24:53

Any guys out there who have taken the courageous step to to to rip off that Band Aid, to have that conversation? Was it as a disaster, or did it lead to new healing and and and closeness in your relationship? Was it a was it a step that propelled you forward toward healing? So thanks for listening, guys, as always, and we'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Zach.

Zack Carter: 25:14

Sure thing. Bye, everybody. Bye.