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Two deranged lawyers talking about our deranged obsessions.
Raven Sinner (00:01)
Thanks for watching!
Raven (00:26)
Hello, Derangers. Welcome back to Deranged De Jure. I am Raven. I'm joined by my co-host.
Pisha (00:33)
I am Pisha. Was that normal today? Okay, good. All right, working on it.
Raven (00:37)
That was, it was mostly normal. That was great. Yeah. So, and we are the podcast that brings you two deranged lawyers who cover our most deranged obsessions. And so this week, well, actually this month, we are beginning with the progression from Ruby Ridge to January 6th. We took a real deep dive and it's just going to keep getting deeper and deeper based on
the fact that this month, April 19th, is the anniversary of Oklahoma City bombings. And I was actually recommended a podcast and ultimately a book I've been devouring because it's fascinating, called Homegrown. And one of my friends' sisters introduced me to it. And so ever since then, I've just been going down the rabbit hole. And I brought you right with me, Pisha So thanks for joining me.
Pisha (01:26)
Oh my God, you totally did. I got down that rabbit hole. We're gonna do our best to cover it all everybody, but we decided that the facts are out there and you can find whatever we miss, okay? Be diligent adults.
Raven (01:30)
Whoo, yeah.
Ha ha!
That's right. Do your own fact checking. We don't need to do ours. That's right. That's right. So, yeah.
Pisha (01:45)
Yeah, exactly. We do enough of that.
Raven (01:50)
know, talking about Ruby Ridge to begin with,
I wanted to give everyone a little bit of context about,
you know, at least when I first heard about Ruby Ridge and Waco and Oklahoma City bombings, they're really kind of isolated events. And as with everything in history, it's not isolated. There's definitely context behind it.
And
I got really interested in who the Weavers, Randy Weaver, his wife Vicki, who were involved with Ruby Ridge, who they were and what they were involved with. And so,
kind of taking a little bit of a step back, the Sovereign Citizens Movement is still alive and well today, as you know, Pisha And, you know, and I think probably
Pisha (02:30)
Yay.
Raven (02:33)
people would associate Ruby Ridge with sovereign citizenship. But I actually really didn't know the history of sovereign citizens. And so I kind of looked into that. So they started as a group called Posse Comitatus. And this was back in like the 1960s to 1970s-ish era. And it was in response to the agricultural
dilemmas that were going on back then, you know, having to do with like Carter wanting farmers to expand and then they were overextending their credit, all that stuff. And so farmers were particularly perturbed with the federal government. And so there was, you know, some backlash that came. And it's interesting because, I mean, I think you look back at like this time period, which we're talking about the 1990s, not until the 1970s, but there was a lot of
grievances on the left regarding farms as well as on the right. So part of this whole thing for me is just trying to bridge that gap and trying to figure out because the complaints are the same. It's just a matter of who people want to blame. And so that's what this comes down to. So the Posse Comitatus, which is the funnest thing to say.
Pisha (03:52)
I was gonna say, I just like hearing it. Thank you for saying it as many times. The Posse Comitatus.
Raven (03:57)
Oh, I will keep saying it. So, Comitatus So they, it comes from an act from 1878, which was actually kind of a racist act, but as everything was back then. Yeah.
Pisha (04:12)
You don't say... You don't say a racist act from 1878? No. Not in America.
Raven (04:19)
I know you wouldn't think so, but it's true. So I mean, this is all during the reconstruction period. And so what it was doing was at the time, I guess the military became really involved with law enforcement. And so what this act did was remove the military and allow the sheriff to establish his own posse. And that's the posse Comitatus
so they used this act.
And I'm talking about in particular, William Potter Gale. And he basically kind of started the Posse Comitatus. He was a political activist. He was a staunch racist. And...
Pisha (04:59)
Stonch racist. I gotta say from the name, he sounds like a really like horrid old man. He sounds like the name of the guy in It's a Wonderful Life. Old Mr. Potter, like old, it's him. Old Potter Gale, it's him.
Raven (05:07)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, old Potter Gale. It's the same guy. Yep, that's the guy. Yeah, so he was alive from 1916 to 1988, and so I wanted to say you're welcome for his death. I'm taking credit.
Pisha (05:27)
You take it? You did it. You did it because you were born the same year. Is that why? Okay good. That's why that happened. You took his life and instead you gave the world us.
Raven (05:32)
Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. So he
Pisha (05:42)
I just said that.
Raven (05:42)
I'm the gift that keeps on giving.
Pisha (05:44)
are the gift that keeps giving.
Raven (05:47)
Anyways, so Potter Gale was, he was also prolific. He wrote what was called the Faith of Our Fathers in 1963. And along with the Posse Comitatus, he also had a strong involvement with the Christian identity movement, which you're going to talk about here in a second. But
He was also involved with the California Rangers, who were basically tax resistors slash terrorists, and then the United States Posse Associates, which is, I think, another one he founded, as well as the Christian Patriot Movement. So anyway, from that, from William Potter Gale to Gordon Call, Gordon Call heard over the radio that William Potter Gale,
had this message. And so he actually really was, I don't want to say an inspiration because I don't know that it was, but it was just deeply related to Randy Weaver. Randy Weaver was extremely entrenched in this ideology. And so he very much knew about William Potter Gale and Gordon Call. And Gordon Call is the one who was also a tax evader and
He had a war now for his arrest for violating supervised release and then responded with gunfire and killed two marshals in 1983. So Gordon Call actually became a martyr to the posse comitatus. And so like I said, on the political side of things, that's where Randy Weaver came up through. Like this is the origin story of Randy Weaver and how he at least politically became aligned.
I'm saying Randy Weaver. We're gonna talk about his wife because he gets so much of the credit and the thing is she is the one who really pushed them into this movement. So yeah, so that's the political side. And
Pisha (07:19)
Oh god.
Raven (07:29)
this is a political and religious side of things. So, Pisha, tell me about the Christian identity movement.
Pisha (07:37)
love to tell you about it. So the Christian identity movement, it's not so much an organized religion as it is a racial interpretation. So it's an interpretation of Christianity that advocates the belief that only Celtic or Germanic, i.e. white people, are the descendants of the ancient Israelites and therefore God's chosen people.
Raven (07:39)
Awesome.
Pisha (08:07)
don't know if you guys know anything about me and
my spiritual beliefs, but I, uh, I don't get any of this shit. And so I don't know why it matters if you're a descendant of an ancient Israelite and if whatever, I, I don't get it, but hopefully you all understand why this matters. So anyways, they think of themselves as the chosen people because they're white.
but also because of this serpent seed theory. This is great. It's a great theory that has Eve having two twins, right? Two twins. Why would she have more than two twins? Anyways, point is Eve, why'd you give me the religion slide? You knew I was gonna do this. I was gonna mess it up. Okay, anyways, Eve had twins by definition. That's.
Raven (08:50)
Thanks for watching!
Pisha (09:02)
two babies and the serpent seed theory goes like this. The good baby, Abel, was a descendant of Adam, but the bad baby, Cain, was a descendant of Satan because Eve apparently was also a cat and could have litters by multiple men.
I guess.
But the point is that the bad baby, Cain
was a descendant of Satan and his offspring are black. And whereas Abel, the good baby, the descendant of Adam, his offspring are white. So you can see where I'm going with this. Basically, if you are Jewish and you claim to be God's chosen people, you're wrong. And if you're black, then you're a spawn of Satan.
Raven (09:47)
Move.
Pisha (10:00)
So.
Raven (10:01)
I did have one thing about William Gordon Gale as you said that though, because he's Christian identity. He actually came from the pogroms and he was Jewish. Yeah, isn't that interesting?
Pisha (10:04)
Oh!
Oh.
Well, what's so interesting though is that Christian identity didn't necessarily embrace anti-Semitism until like the 40s through the 70s. That's when it really started to solidify in the ideology because it emerged in the US in like the 1920s and the 1930s based off of British Israelism. I have no idea what that means, but apparently it has to do
with the lost tribes of Jewish people. And some people are, I don't know, but it didn't, British Israelism did not incorporate anti-Semitism. So a lot of people consider Christian identity in the US as taking a really bad, hard turn away from the British Israelism.
And now they're saying that there's anywhere from 2,000 to 50,000 of these people who
as a part of the Christian identity movement in the U.S. And that number ranges because it's not an organized religion. So we have to estimate like how many people actually like hold these views, if that makes sense. Okay. So thank you for putting up with my Bible study for the day.
Raven (11:17)
Mm.
It does. Yeah. That's interesting. Okay.
Pisha (11:34)
I'm sorry.
Raven (11:34)
I loved it. It's the most I've learned about the Bible in years, so.
Pisha (11:37)
It was the most I've learned as well. And I'm not sure if any of that really actually came from the Bible. I don't know. See, that's what's so messed up is like they claim all these things and I'm like, okay, well, where's your evidence? And if they point to the Bible, I'm like, do you have other evidence? I don't know. Cause that just doesn't work on me.
Raven (11:54)
Like, for real evidence? No, it doesn't. But Randy
identified in the Christian identity, right?
Pisha (12:01)
Right, yeah, so he was always a Christian kind of fundamentalist family. He grew up in a Christian fundamentalist family. He was born on January 3rd, 1948 in Veliska, Iowa to a family of farmers. And as you've mentioned before, farmers have a big problem with the federal government. Also ranchers andā
People who own land have a problem with the government, I've noticed, just based on my observations. Right, but anyways, so Randy was born into this family, who they were deeply religious and had diff, I put this in word for word because it made me laugh.
Raven (12:30)
This is true. Yeah, anecdotally.
Pisha (12:46)
They had difficulty finding a denomination that matched their views, which resulted in church shopping. They often moved around among evangelical, Presbyterian and Baptist churches. And what made me laugh was the whole difficulty finding a denomination that matched their views. Well, that's because they couldn't find a denomination that felt that black people were the spawns of Satan. So...
it just was interesting to me that they were like, Hmm, let's find the place that fits our needs. You know, like we can't find something that fits you know, it's just weird. They forced some religious views. And, um, when the religions weren't as radical as they were, they taught their children to become radical. So,
Raven (13:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (13:35)
Randy enlisted in the army in 1968 at the height of Vietnam.
He told people after his discharge in 1971, which by the way, that's a really short, isn't that kind of short for military service, isn't it? Like typically four years.
Raven (13:51)
I, yeah, you're asking the wrong person for this, but sure. I'll say yes.
Pisha (13:55)
Okay, I just felt like it was pretty short and but maybe it was because Vietnam ended and there was no need to like reenlist or anything like that. But but anyways, after his discharge in 1971, Randy told people that he was a Green Beret. However, he's a fucking liar, was never a member of any special forces, and at most may have taken a general demolitions training as a combat engineer.
Raven (13:58)
Mm-hmm.
Oh right, because he was in the army for our engineers, wasn't he? Okay.
Pisha (14:27)
Yes, and my understanding is he did not see a lot of action in Vietnam. It was like mostly like administrative stuff. And so, yeah, yeah. So Randy, our boy Randy, met his future wife and all around psycho bitch Vicky while on leave in 1970. And I know all of you are thinking that was way too harsh, but just wait until you find out.
Raven (14:38)
That was my thinking too. Okay, interesting. Hmm, yeah.
Trust weep.
Pisha (14:59)
But he married her one month after his discharge from the army. And at the time of this Ruby Ridge standoff, he had four children with Vicki. Sarah, who was 16 at the time of the siege, Samuel, who was 14, Rachel, who was 10, and Elisheba who was 10 months. So that's very briefly, Randy. He got work at a John Deere.
Raven (15:18)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (15:25)
factory in Iowa and then later moved his family out to the Ruby Ridge area in Idaho. In order to follow said all around psycho bitch Vicky's vision of her family surviving what she thought was an imminent apocalypse, a race war to end all race wars. But basically
Vicki felt like the federal government and a race war, something was going to ensue. The apocalypse was near. In order to stay away from a corrupt civilization, the Weaver family moved to a 20-acre property in Idaho in 1983, and they built a cabin there. I'd like to point out that none of that cabin was up to code. So yeah.
Raven (16:11)
Oh, definitely not. I think they also paid like $7,500 for like all of that land like altogether including the, I think that's how much it cost, something like that.
Pisha (16:20)
Okay, so I did some research into this because I thought it was wild. How did they acquire? I want to know more about how they acquired this land because it's kind of shady to me that they only paid $5,000 cash for property that was valued $500 an acre.
Raven (16:24)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (16:40)
So I don't, we know my math abilities. I'm not going to tell you what $500 an acre for a 20 acre property is, but it's way more than $5,000.
Raven (16:51)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Pisha (16:52)
So I don't know. I wanna know if there was some weird insider deal taking place or some sort of fraud to avoid capital gains or tax divestment, something. Does that make sense? I mean, because he was a tax evader, he did not wanna pay taxes.
Raven (16:59)
Mm-hmm.
Probably all of those things. Yeah, I mean
Right, right, which is, I mean, part and parcel with these philosophies is,
tax evasion, that the federal government shouldn't be taxing the people. Like they see themselves as like descendants of 1776. Well, and so they think that they don't need to pay taxes or abide by certain laws. So,
speaking to that, so yeah, so they moved to Ruby Ridge.
and there's still church shopping at this time. And so this is when Randy and Vicki really get into white supremacy and are joining a lot of these white supremacy churches, which also were not extreme enough for them, if that gives you any indication of who these people were. So. Mm hmm.
Pisha (17:51)
Right? Well, wait, before we leave the property on Ruby Ridge, they built this cabin, right? But I want to mention that they also built something called the birthing shed, which is where the women went to have their periods and give birth.
Raven (17:57)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
the women's stuff.
Pisha (18:12)
the women's stuff had to take place elsewhere. So I just, I thought that was fun. Like the 16 year old girl talked about how she'd have to spend the week she had her period in this shed and I was like, wow, great childhood.
Raven (18:18)
Yeah.
Oh, God, poor thing. I know. Yeah,
so they're, they're not making a whole lot of friends up there. I will say that the neighbors were pretty pissed at them
uh, the Weavers like to steal their shit
taught their kids to do the same. And so I actually
the siege of Ruby Ridge, which is like,
It has to be late 90s at the latest, I would think. And it is just so terrible. It's like a hallmark movie about Ruby Ridge. And so one of the things, so they're portraying the Weavers kind of as they were as being super racist and stuff. And so one of the scenes was after they were accused of stealing, I can't remember, it was like water pipes or something like that.
Because they're off the grid, right? And that's the whole purpose of this, is to be away from people and civilization, as you were talking about with Vicki's belief system, if you want to call it that. And so they marched their kids down to their neighbor's house, and the kids were marching around with guns and shit and just saying a bunch of racist shit. They were calling the neighbors N-words.
all kinds of things. Like it was just, these are not nice people. Like, you know, there's a lot of like martyrdom that comes with this. And you know, there's a lot I don't agree with. And we already had a full on argument about this prior to recording.
Pisha (19:35)
Mm-mm-mm.
Yeah, what you guys missed, what you guys missed prior to this recording was like the one hour
Raven had to talk me off the ledge because I was like, people shouldn't get special treatment because they decide they don't want to participate in society! RAAA! Like oh my god it was so nuts but don't worry I think I'm off that edge now?
Raven (20:10)
Well, we'll find out, because we're about to get into it.
Pisha (20:11)
Let's keep talking about it.
Raven (20:15)
You know, we may have to reach a point where we cut ourselves off, but that's okay, because we can keep talking about it. It would just won't like bother everyone else. So anyway, so yeah, so Randy Weaver is not making friends. He's not doing great all around, but he's going to some Aryan Brotherhood meetings. He's trying to make friends, you know, as you do as a racist. He's joining the things that he loves.
finding common interests with his common man.
Pisha (20:40)
Man, really, he's just doing what we all are trying to do. Ugh, just trying to fit in with those frickin' hooded weirdos. Anyways, go ahead.
Raven (20:44)
Trying to fit in, really. Anyway, God.
Yeah, yeah. So in 1986, he joins the World Aryan Congress. And that's where he actually meets. And this is in Hayden Lake, Idaho. It's a white supremacist group, obviously. And at one of these meetings, he ends up befriending
agent.
the ATF agent is particularly interested in.
the white supremacy that's happening in this area. Like, and actually I think to this day, and it's not just Idaho, a lot of this rural like Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, a lot of this region, I think even into like Oregon and Washington, there's a lot of white supremacy like happening up in that area. Not a whole lot of black people there either. So in any case, they're interested in kind of the more terroristic side of like,
white supremacy and trying to get a better feel for what's going on there. So they approach Randy. He ends up purchasing two illegal sawed off shotguns in October of 1989. At that point, they're wearing a wire, so they're getting,
recordings of him saying some pretty heinous shit about like hoping that the sawed off shotguns makes its way to inner...
cities where Black people will kill each other. It's like absolutely like deplore. I can't even, I mean, it's so beyond because, I mean, I think we talk about racism a lot and it tends to be, I don't wanna call it benign. It's not benign, but it's not this blatant. It's not this like, I mean, in your face and absolutely disgusting views of like people wanting other people to die. Like it's...
It's shocking. I hate to say it is shocking because it's prevalent these days, but it's really awful. So anyway, Randy buys or sells these sawed-off shotguns, and then the ATF approaches him prior to charging him and says, hey, instead of charging you with this illegal shotgun charges, which we're going to do,
why don't you talk to us about the Aryan Brotherhood and about white supremacy in general? We're trying to get a feel for this. And he tells them to go fuck themselves. And so they end up charging him. So yeah, in 1990.
was arrested and then he was ultimately released on bond. But it was this nightmare scenario, right? Like,
This is a nightmare that I constantly have, that I have the wrong trial date, or that I tell my client the wrong trial date. And so his probation officer actually sent him a letter saying that the trial was, I think, in March 20th of 1991. It was actually February 20th of 1991. So he misses his court date. So at that point, this is all that I had heard up till now, literally up to today.
And so, you know, I was like, oh, he missed a court date. And then the ATF came in and just fucking sieged his house. Like that's nuts, but not entirely the full story. So he's declared a fugitive in February of 1991 after he doesn't appear for trial, which he claims he didn't know about, which is kind of backed up by the fact that the probation officer fucked up and told him the wrong date. But.
The court had tried to get his attorneys to have him surrender at that point. There was, you know, just a number of. Efforts that were being made to try and get him to come into court, and he ultimately did not like he knew after he didn't show up, that he was in trouble and he probably could have been fine had he just showed up to court the next time.
But he chose not to and continued to kind of flaunt in the face of the federal government that he was resisting their court dates and their court system in general. So he went so far as to go on the news. He took an interview with Geraldo Rivera where he talked about the fact that he had missed his court date. And so the federal judge is seeing this at that point and going like, uh-uh, like.
We can't have that. And so the judge instructs the marshals to go after Randy Weaver and his family. Also during this time, and this is where we're gonna start talking about Vicki a little bit, Vicki is deranged and not in the good way. Not like you guys, not like us, no.
Pisha (24:58)
Not in our way, not in our good, you know, kind of lighthearted deranger sort of way.
Raven (25:05)
Right. Yeah, yeah, we're talking really deranged. Like, she's nuts. I mean, she was sending letters to all of these federal agencies, calling them like servants of the Queen of Babylon. And like, you know, just. That's right. Yeah. So anyway, I mean, this is all in reference to like, she's basically calling the government evil.
Pisha (25:18)
Who was Janet Reno, by the way? Yeah, the attorney general, whoa.
Raven (25:33)
and like, and Satan and all these things. And so she, these letters are threatening in nature and they're pretty vile. So, you know, so obviously the federal government's not taking too well to that either. So, so she, and really like I said, she's the driving force here. And I love that in the Siege of Ruby Ridge, the Hallmark movie that I highly recommend to everybody.
three hours that you are definitely not wasting of your life for sure.
she's instructing Randy on what to do in this scenario. I mean, like she's really the one and she's driving the entire family to abide by their quote unquote faith. So,
know there's a lot to say that at least there's a narrative out there, especially on the right wing.
side of things that would be true if this other critical fact were not true, which is the fact that he was being charged with a crime. He was not a criminal at the time, he was not convicted, but he had conditions of release that he had to abide by and that he was not doing, and that made him a criminal because he was not allowed to have guns as a condition of release. It's a standard condition of release, particularly for firearm charges. And so
he chose to have a number of firearms throughout his criminal proceedings. And so it was, you know, again, flaunting to the world that he was just not going to abide by the government in any regard. So that is the beginning.
Pisha (27:02)
By the way, it's not just like, oh, I'm being targeted as
Raven (27:02)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (27:08)
a responsible gun-owning American citizen. This is a guy who was illegally modifying weapons to make them more deadly and illegally selling them. I just wanna point that out. It's not like he was arrested because he had a concealed carry and he brought it into a movie theater.
Raven (27:17)
Mm-hmm.
Right, I mean, and this could be like a broader conversation about what constitutes criminality, right? Like, I mean, we're all criminals to some degree, because I'm sure that not all of us, you know, go by the speed limit every single time or wear our seat belts every single time, you know? And so there's, sure, a range of criminal activities, but he was engaging in criminal activity. And so, you know,
Pisha (27:33)
Right.
Raven (27:54)
We talked about this before and I think it's interesting and maybe we'll get into this a little bit later because it's not really as relevant now, but to some degree, there's the people on the left and especially like in the Black Lives Matter movement who tend to see minor criminal activities, especially like economic crimes, especially crimes of poverty.
is not warranting lethal force, obviously, right? I mean, I think that's only common sense that you can't have someone steal a dollar or something like that and then shoot them. That seems crazy. But then on the right, there's a lot of the justification of firearms charges. And so my theory behind that, I tend to think that there's gotta be some...
somewhere where we can bridge that gap between the two. Because they're both similar in their philosophies that certain crimes are less important than other crimes, I guess. Anyway, but we can't agree on who can commit those crimes. I think that's the problem. So yeah, I was going to get political again, but I think we're already there. So.
Pisha (29:04)
Right.
Too late.
Raven (29:13)
Because I was going to say, like, I mean, there's a whole lot of justification for, like, the crimes that a former, certain former president is doing that I've heard that are just, uh, poof, anyway, we're way off subject. Let's go back and.
Pisha (29:21)
Right?
No, but I like your point though. The point is we have a problem. We all equally have a problem with the same thing, but we don't have a problem with the people who are committing it per se, like the same people who are committing it. So, as long as my people are committing it, I don't have a problem with it. It's their thing.
Raven (29:36)
dog barking
WHAAAT?
Exactly. Right.
That's exactly right. Yes, yes, you're right on point. That's exactly what I was thinking in this too. So yeah, and I guess that's what this whole thing is about. This is exactly what Ruby Ridge is about, is it's not okay that the federal government comes in and harms our people, our person. And we'll get into that in a little bit here when we talk about the response and some of the protesters that were up at Ruby Ridge.
So, but first let's talk about how we got to Ruby Ridge. So
in March of 1992, US Marshals went to Ruby Ridge in plain clothes. They were surveilling the property, which they were allowed to do. There was a warrant out for his arrest. And so that's one of the things that also doesn't get mentioned in the right-wing history books as well, which is that when you have an arrest warrant,
you're not trespassing on somebody's land. You have the right, especially, I think they had it like a search warrant along with their arrest warrant, but they were allowed to go where he was going to be found, essentially. So.
Pisha (30:58)
Well, and not only where he was gonna be found, but his name was actually listed on the properties.
Raven (31:03)
Right exactly right so in any case
Randy Weaver is telling him and he's telling everybody that they're trespassing They're trying to come up with a way of getting him into custody. That's going to be safe for everybody So they start that in March of 1992
they've developed this plan based on some of the actions that have happened, based on the fact that he's kind of made his himself, like I said, public and kind of disparaging of the government at this point.
and they're in tactical gear. It's somewhat militaristic at this point. I am gonna say that. Like I think that, you know, we've had this argument again beforehand, but I think that the surveillance efforts were maybe a little bit militaristic. Like I said, I think they were just like not coming in a way that would...
leads to anyone to believe that they were not at war with the government. Let's just put it that way.
Pisha (31:55)
Yeah, and I feel that I understand after our discussions, which I wish other people could have heard because it was fascinating. But
Raven (32:00)
It was.
Pisha (32:02)
how far can our government go to surveil against us? You know, I think that's really where it lies. And really, what message are you sending to the people you're surveilling when you're surveilling their property in full?
Raven (32:05)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (32:16)
fatigues, they didn't have bulletproof vests. Or actually, I don't think they had any tactical gear besides the fatigues. That this first survey, sure, it suggests a uniform, military uniform, right? And so, I mean, that's, again, how do you surveil though, in, you know, a bright orange uniform, but it's what you do. You wear camo when you're surveilling, is my argument.
Raven (32:16)
Right.
But fatigues suggest, you know, military.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (32:45)
But I see how you're sending the wrong message to the people you're surveilling. And I guess my issue is when you've got children on the property who are arming themselves against people who show up on their property, like these people kept track, these marshals during their surveillance time kept track of how many times
Raven (32:48)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (33:10)
the weavers would respond and how they respond. And they called their responses armed responses 100% of the time. Anytime they heard a car coming up their driveway, they would have an armed response. So these people were particularly aggressive in the defense of their property, if that makes sense.
Raven (33:32)
storm.
Pisha (33:35)
And so, and I think also the fact that the children were being militarized and armed made them feel like they had to be more covert. So if I were to justify the government in this time, that's how I would do it. But I totally understand how a bunch of brainwashed children who think that the US government is attacking them look outside and see a bunch of people in military uniforms attacking them.
Raven (33:50)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (34:03)
kind of looks like that's what's happening. So I appreciate it. I just, I'm not sure how they could have done it a whole lot better, at least at this point.
Raven (34:04)
Right, right.
Yeah, well, I mean, and we'll talk about the response afterwards because they certainly could have done it a lot better, I think.
there's still people out there who said that they did everything as well as they could have. But, you know, I just I think that there were certain things that they probably could have done better and
did not need to be in a war with its own with their own citizens. And that's just my
anyway, they're surveilling the property and then on August 21st of 1992 is when shit hit the fan.
on August 21st of 1992, the marshals are hiking around the property, and they accidentally alert the family dog named Striker. And the dog starts barking. And that's kind of how it alerts the weavers that something was amiss. So like the
good boy that he was. Striker led Kevin Harris, who was a family friend who was actually basically adopted by the Weavers, which is kind of weird because I think he was like 24 or something like that. But anyway, who knows what was going on there? I think probably some weird things that we don't want to know about. So Kevin Harris and Sammy Weaver, who was 14, who was one of the sons, the only son of the Weavers, went to go kind of figure out what was going on.
And at that point, Agent William Deegan of the US Marshals, he was armed with a camera and a firearm, and he instructs them, stop, US Marshal. So at that point, they know there's a federal agent
Pisha (35:40)
Well, yeah, so you're right. He tells Deegan, Agent Deegan tells them to stop. He identifies him as himself as a marshal. And there's a little bit, there's some conflicting stories going on about what happens next. But what we do know is that the first casualty of this whole siege is the dog, Stryker. And Stryker,
from the surveillance footage that I looked at appeared to be a golden lab and a good boy. Yeah. It was not his fault. He was just doing his job. And here's where the conflict is. The conflict is there's some stories saying that the marshal just shot the dog to shut it up.
Raven (36:12)
Yeah. Yeah, always. It is not his fault that his family was racist. I just want to say that.
Pisha (36:34)
and to keep it from alerting them, but they had already identified him at that point. So I don't know how that could be
Raven (36:39)
Right.
Pisha (36:40)
the other story is that the dog charged him and he had to shoot the dog. And as a result of the dog getting shot, now comes another conflicting story. One story is that Samuel, the 14 year old,
Then turned to the marshals and screamed, you son of a bitch, you killed my dog, and pointed the guns at the marshals. And we don't know who shot first, whether it was Kevin, whether it was Samuel, or the marshals. Like we just know that the dog was shot first and then a shootout ensued. During the shootout,
Agent William Deegan was shot in the chest by Kevin Harris and he dies. He was not wearing a bulletproof vest. Like I said, because they didn't think it would be effective in this case with people using militarized
and this was also in the nineties. So I don't think bulletproof vests were quite
easy to wear and as effective. So.
That was what they said, at least the marshals. Either way, this little brainwashed asshole, as I called him, I feel bad because he's just a kid, but at the same time, like, you pulled a gun on people who identified them as officers of the law. And I just don't know what you expect in return otherwise, but I get it, you've been brainwashed by your parents to think that this is the enemy.
he ends up getting shot in the back and killed during
shoot out over the dog. And Kevin Harris returns to the cabin to tell the Weavers that Samuel had died. And they then, I guess, went out and dragged his body to store in the shed until all of this was over, which I thought was really creepy and gross. Like, I don't know. Yeah, I thought that was creepy and gross. Like, you're kidding.
Raven (38:31)
Really?
Bye.
Pisha (38:37)
I don't know, your kid had just been killed. Like, don't you want him to be properly, like, like put to rest? You've just put him in a shed until your singular battle that you've invented with the government and that the government has done a pretty good job of reinforcing, unfortunately. But it's just, I don't know, it just seemed kind of creepy to me. If my kid had been shot, I would have been like, I don't even care what this is about anymore.
Like, my kid's gone. Like, I don't know, I guess I don't have a cause that's more important than my children.
Raven (39:09)
I know.
Right, but I think at the same time, you're thinking of it from your perspective and forgetting that like, we're dealing with some crazy people here. Like, yeah.
Pisha (39:23)
Exactly. Like as soon as I said it, I was like, I don't have a cause that's more important than my children. Well, good. Like I think that's probably good. That makes me a good normal person. And these people are not that way at all.
Raven (39:28)
Mm-hmm.
Right. No, they're not normal. Like their worldview is completely warped.
they're, they are just kind of cogs in their own machine, really, I mean, and getting into,
what was going on. So at this point, you know, now there's been a fatality. And this is when the rules of engagement change. And this is when I just kind
I disagree.
we'll say strongly with the response from here as far as the federal government goes, because it ends
know, there's tanks being brought in, and then along the road all the way up to Ruby Ridge, you know, people are hearing about what's happening. There's news helicopters that have been flying around. So people know, I mean, this is becoming a big deal. It's becoming national news. And so all
you know, mostly white supremacists, but all kinds of anti-government,
types of people, which again, like, I mean, this is why I think I'm so interested in this is
you have the anti-government people who are on the left,
I think that the spectrum is just getting closer and closer between those on the left and those on the right. Not when it comes to racism. We'll just, you know, that's, that's the big one. We'll just say
I mean, you do have those, some of those.
beliefs that will eventually converge. So anyway, you have the anti-government protesters who are out there and they are holding all the racist signs and shit like that. And so they're trying to stop the marshals from going in and doing what they're doing to Ruby Ridge
But at this point, this is kind of really when the siege starts. This is Randy and Vicki take the rest of their kids and Kevin, and they hole up in their house for the next 10 days.
Pisha (41:20)
Yes, that happened on the 21st. The next day is when I believe the rules of engagement changed, and it changed from the Marshall's hands to the FBI. That's another thing I want to point out, is that I think a lot of the militarized response may have occurred because so many government agencies got involved at one point.
Raven (41:23)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Pisha (41:42)
And it kept getting passed back and forth. It was at the ATF at one point, it was with the Marshals, it was back with the ATF, then it was back with the Marshals. Then it went to the FBI when the federal agent was killed. So as soon as that agent was killed, the rules of engagement were changed, not by the Marshals, but by the FBI is my understanding when they came in.
Raven (41:51)
Mm-hmm. Great.
Mm-hmm.
Right, right. And this isn't something that was, I think, ever done before, as far as I know, as far as because rules of engagement is not a law enforcement term. It is a military term. And that became abundantly clear after Ruby Ridge. And so in any case, there's hundreds of agents who
coming into Ruby Ridge and...
and engaging in warfare, essentially, with this, I guess, what's now five people who are left
know, they're trying to come up with ways to lure Randy out and failing. They do exchange gunfire.
So at some point, Randy is bringing Sammy up to the shed and he's out there with Vicki and the marshals see him and they start shooting. And they shoot a part of the shed and they ultimately shoot Randy in the arm. It's not a lethal shot. He gets back to the house.
And I think just before then is they captured this really famous photograph of Vicky standing kind of out in the middle of nowhere. This photograph is everywhere. And I think what it's trying to show, and it's so deceptive because it shows this woman who's kind of all in white. And she looks like she's not armed. She looks completely innocent. And so the story is that they shoot.
the marshals then shoot her in the head, which they didn't even realize that they did. And so, but again, she's heavily armed. She's someone who is very dangerous and kind of the head of all of this. She's shot in the head. Go ahead.
Pisha (43:47)
Well, and I was just going to say the photograph reminded me of the girl from the ring, like all in white with the dark hair over her face. That's what it looked like to me. So like, you know, some people see this like angelic, innocent thing, and I saw like pure evil in the photograph. And so what my, what I thought happened with the shooting was that
Raven (43:52)
Oh yeah, that's true.
That's true.
Yeah.
Pisha (44:11)
Randy and Kevin had left the house to go look at Samuel's body one last time. And when they were coming back into the house, gunfire erupted. And Vicki, holding her 10-month baby as a human shield, opens the door in the gunfire to get these men inside. And it, yeah.
Raven (44:15)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Right, right.
Pisha (44:40)
And so I just it's not like she was just shot standing in the middle of this field in this long white dress. Like not like that image would have some people believe like the whole story behind how she ended up getting shot is so much darker. And so that's all I was trying to point out was like, it's not like she was standing in the middle of the field open shot. You know, she was in she knew. Yeah, she knew she was.
Raven (44:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
No, she was in the house and-
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (45:09)
under fire and she brought her 10 month old baby to the door with her and used her as a shield.
Raven (45:12)
Mm-hmm, yeah. Right, well, and she actually landed on the baby, her body landed on the baby in the kitchen, and Randy had to pull the baby out from under her. So Vicki's dead at this point, so the death toll is rising. I think Kevin got hit in that gunfire as well, and so he's actually pretty wounded at this point.
Pisha (45:27)
Yeah.
Raven (45:38)
think he's even asking for Randy to kill him,
because he's, he's in so much pain and they don't have, I mean, there's no hospital. Obviously they don't have a whole lot. I don't, I don't know if they had like even a first aid
the morning after this
the U S marshals not knowing or claiming that they didn't know, depending on who you
that they had shot
Um,
were talking to her, they were calling out to her on bull horns saying, we have pancakes here for your kids, Vicki, come on out, Vicki. And that just antagonizes Randy. And Randy is livid at this point because he thinks that they are teasing him, that they're mocking
the death of his wife. So anyway, yeah, but that wasn't the case, at least according to the marshals. The marshals did not know that she was
Pisha (46:15)
Ehh.
Raven (46:23)
we're kind of hitting the critical point in this whole
I think we're at like day eight or something. But we're getting pretty close to the end. So what happened next, Pisha
Pisha (46:32)
So next, they call in this guy, Bo Gritz, who has been described as a front man for fascism in America. Be looking for him in politics, I guess. But yeah, he's really a weird guy. He is a former very highly decorated special forces guy.
Raven (46:47)
Great.
Pisha (47:00)
I don't know what branch I think army. I don't know. I didn't do. He might have been he might have actually been a Green Beret, whereas Randy was not one. Bo Gritz, I think was I think you're right. I think he was a Green Beret. I know for sure he was special forces. But he had been kind of becoming popular in politics as a third party candidate because of his.
Raven (47:01)
I thought he was a great braid too.
I think so.
Pisha (47:28)
extreme ideals about race and such. And so he shows up as this civilian negotiator and he convinces Weaver to allow Kevin Harris to seek medical treatment because at this point he's been shot twice over the course of I think seven or eight days and he's about to die. So...
That led Weaver to at least turn Harris over for medical treatment. He was promptly arrested as well. But the next day, Gritz convinced Weaver to surrender with his children at the edge of his property. Because he said there was no other, I can't remember what his words were, but basically that,
there was no other reasonable resolution or something like that. And I was like, there was never any other reasonable resolution. Like, for example, none of this would have happened if the dude had just shown up to court. I have seen way too many unarmed black men killed in this country because, quote unquote, all they had to do was just comply with the officer's orders. And here's a bunch of fucking white people who all they had to do.
Raven (48:19)
Right.
Right.
Pisha (48:46)
was comply with officer orders and maybe they'd all be alive. And so, like, I'm sorry to use that against them because I think it's also bullshit, but it's like, you can't tell me that, you can't use that justification for the murder of other citizens in your country if you can't also accept it for your own people, you know? Like, right.
Raven (48:49)
Yeah.
Right, but you can turn that back around too, right? I mean, like, because my point with that is like, of course I don't think that anybody should be killed at the hands of law enforcement without some kind of like just cause. And so, you know, I will turn that back around and say, just because someone is not complying with the, you know, whatever doesn't mean that they should be killed. In this instance, I mean, it is different.
Pisha (49:31)
Absolutely.
Raven (49:33)
there is gunfire involved. And so at that point, I think that is justifiable. But, you know, I just, I think that we've got to be consistent whether we're on the left or on the right. So, but your point is completely well taken. I mean, I do not think that, you know, people, black people especially should not be, you know, murdered by the police as they are so often these days. So, well, I don't even know if these days, all time.
Pisha (49:47)
Yeah, no, I completely agree.
And maybe that's where my anger comes from is it's not so much that I don't agree that it should be applied equally to everyone. It's that I see that it's not being equally applied to everyone. And so it's hard for me to continue to stand by, oh, equal application, equal application, equal treatment when it's just not being done in practice. And so...
Raven (50:04)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (50:31)
I just, I think that's where my anger comes from is in, and I agree, you know me, I'm as anti-fascist as they come. I don't think we should have police forces. I don't think, I don't think cops in America should be allowed to hold guns. How's that for a hot take? Like I look, right? Like I'm so against militarization of police forces. And so that's why it's really surprising to me that
Raven (50:41)
Mm-hmm.
I agree with you.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (51:00)
I feel so inclined to justify the government's position in this case, and it's because of what we've been talking about this whole time. I am able to justify the government's position in this way because I hate the people who are committing the crime. And so, it's the same thing with them and their unequal application of laws to Black people. So really, I'm guilty of the same thing, but it's towards...
Raven (51:14)
Right.
Great.
Pisha (51:28)
towards them. And so I think that's where my anger comes from is that. And I see that it's so hypocritical and it goes against everything I believe about anti-fascism and a militarized police state. But it's just, it's so hard for me to look at these people and go, oh yeah, I'm on their side, not the government.
Raven (51:47)
Right, well, and I think that's the point, and that's probably
well, I think, you know, because you're absolutely not wrong, and I am equally indignant about the treatment of Black people in this country, but I also think that we cannot justify governmental, militarized action against anybody.
in this country because that is fascism, that is authoritarianism, and it's a really fine line because as we talked about before we got into this,
this, so Ruby Ridge may be a poor example of this, because I think that there is some level of justification in some of the government's actions. Not all of it, because I think it was over the top to some degree. But at what point are you going to say this, this one's okay, this one's not? And that's my problem with the government. I mean, because to me,
Pisha (52:17)
Okay.
Raven (52:39)
in order for you to justify that level of violence against your own people, you have to be able to say, I think that I'm 100% of the time right. Right? So in any case, that's why I do not agree with what the government did in Ruby Ridge. And guess what? I'm not a right-wing extremist. So...
Pisha (52:52)
Right.
No, I know. Oh my God. And I'm so not implying that you have to take one side or the other even. Like even as I said it, I was like, this isn't black and white. Like it really isn't. You you can see where the government went wrong and you can see where they tried to do their best. But but at the same time, you can see it where this was completely instigated and created by these people and they were totally setting it up and
Raven (53:09)
Mm-mm.
Mm-mm.
Pisha (53:34)
One of the parts I think you mentioned briefly was when this guy was going on, Geraldo Rivera, like he was bragging about how he was gonna defy the law. And like, he was proud and he was trying to instigate law breaking amongst all white people. Like, I just, you know, it's, I don't know where I was going with that, but.
Raven (53:43)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
No, I mean, I agree with you. Like I think this is not the poster child for first amendment rights or whatever. But I do think if you get really close to some really scary shit, if you're going to say, well, because he was saying X, Y, and Z, that means that the government could come in and like attack his whole family. It's a little different, again, like I said, because he had a bunch of guns and was firing at.
Pisha (54:00)
Yeah.
for either case, really.
Raven (54:22)
the government first. So, but, but America is so kind of kind of different. But, but in any case.
Pisha (54:27)
You know, firing at America.
Little different. No, I totally, I do see how this is a really good example and it really sets the stage for the all sides and all perspectives of really the argument, you know, between the government and between individual rights. And so I think it's fast, it's not, I don't think there's gonna be a perfect poster child in anything no matter what. Very rarely have I ever gotten a case where I'm like, this is a slam dunk.
Raven (54:39)
you
Mm-hmm.
Right.
No.
Nope.
Pisha (55:02)
Like, yeah, it's just, it just doesn't really happen. Only once in my life where literally in the police report, the police officer was like, yeah, the lady ran the red light. And I was like, slam dunk, that's all I need. But like, yeah, it's the only time that's ever happened. Like, that's the thing that makes, I think, the legal world and politics and things where a lot of opinions and a lot of perspectives and just ideals really come into play. So.
Raven (55:03)
It's not real life.
Perfect! So one case that I wanted, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, this is why I think this topic is so fascinating. And like I said, I agree with a lot of what you say. I'm just staunchly anti-government.
So yeah, so Weaver is ultimately arrested. He's detained, and he faces the old firearm charges as well as the failure to appear charge and assault charge and also murder charges along with Kevin Harris. So however, at this point, as we've been talking about, this case has become so publicized. And.
the case actually ended up being tried in Idaho where people knew Randy Weaver and they knew Kevin Harris. And so he just become this anti-hero to the extreme rights. And so ultimately the prosecution kind of just fell apart and they were unsuccessful in proving their case against him. I mean, there's, this would be a trial that we would have to.
hover all on its own because I think the defense was actually super effective in, you know, garnering sympathy for the Weaver family. The marshals are, you know, they're like a little bit militaristic and what we've been talking about altogether. And so when they were testifying, they came off really arrogant.
And they said some things that I think the people of Idaho didn't like. I think one of the things they said was like, I,
I operate under federal law. I don't operate under state law. And I think they didn't really like that part. So anyway, the jury actually acquitted Kevin Harris and Randy Weaver.
and they only convicted him on the failure to a peer charge. And so Randy Weaver ended up spending 18 months in prison, and he was fined $10,000. And so I've been alluding to this a little bit throughout this, but he faced some consequences. This is actually a pretty light sentence for a federal case. But there were a bunch of other things that happened after the fact.
One of the main things and one of the reasons that he was acquitted is because right in the middle of this trial, Waco happened. So people are seeing this and there are already a lot of like anti-government type of sentiments, especially in Idaho. So after that happened, after Waco happened, there was an FBI investigation that led to some punishment of like 14 of the employees.
there, there was also a report by the DOJ, which concluded that the shot,
that killed Vicki Weaver violated the deadly force policy and contravened the constitution. So,
they were ultimately justified. I mean, it was
excessive force. So, then, you know, they, they talked to, this is also what I was talking about before.
The rules of engagement was ruled in the Supreme Court to only apply to the military.
it is not a law enforcement protocol. So.
Pisha (58:24)
protocol.
Raven (58:26)
And we were testified in these proceedings. He did ultimately say that if he were to do it again, he would have just come down off the mountain. So it's unfortunate in so many regards. He did actually sue the feds and did win a $3.1 million settlement. $1 million went to each one of his children.
and I think he got
$100,000. Harris also got a $380,000 settlement for his injuries as well. So the fed's kind of fucked up. That's what I'm saying. So, I mean, this is not just me saying this. This is other courts saying this. This is what, you know, and this is the Senate committees who are saying, you know, the way that the federal government engaged in this particular instance was excessive. So...
yeah, so that's, that's basically, that's all of Ruby
know, it's become a right-wing extremist, like, conspiracy theory for obvious reasons, and they definitely treat Randy Weaver as a martyr. He actually died, I think, in 2022,
okay.
Pisha (59:34)
it was 2022.
Raven (59:35)
So there you go. And that's actually probably why I think there's been a little bit of a resurgence in some of this talk about Ruby Ridge. The marshals have come out now and started talking as well. They were silent mostly up until very recently.
Ruby Ridge, you know, was one instance of federal overreach.
uh to a lot of degrees. It was also a predicament that the federal government you know found themselves in but it did lead the way to
um which led the way to Oklahoma City which led to the Oregon standoff that we saw in what when was that 2016
Pisha (1:00:11)
Ha.
Raven (1:00:10)
then ultimately to January 6. So yeah, so I mean, so it's really, it's the starting point for our series this month on right-wing extremism.
it's really hard to cover this and not, you know, start going off on all of the shitty things. So yeah, thanks for bearing with us and
Pisha, thanks for bearing with me and my attempts to be reasonable about some of this stuff, which it's not easy to be reasonable, especially when we're talking about white supremacy.
Pisha (1:00:46)
No, no, no. Thank you for making me not feel like a raging asshole with your kind reasonableness. Because I totally acknowledge that I harbor a lot of rage for these people, and I'm 100% guilty of what they're
Raven (1:00:50)
I'm sorry.
Pisha (1:01:05)
I
Raven (1:01:06)
so I think, you know, we've covered a lot of ground and I think we all need to take a deep breath because this is tough shit to talk about. And I'm certainly not saying that I'm right on any of this, all of this, anything in between, but I think it's a really good conversation that we need to have. So I appreciate you, Pisha, for-
for having that conversation with
me.
But, you know, so on the one hand, like I said, I'm 100% with you on all of this. It's just a matter of like, how do we keep going? How do we move forward? And I don't think we can do that, you know, if we simply, you know, resort to throwing people away, which I guess it's like, my job.
Not throwing people away.
Pisha (1:01:51)
I look forward to exploring this topic more with you and trying to find a, I guess, a more reasonable ground for the government is what I'm trying to figure out here. Like, that's what I'm trying to figure out is like, what is the government supposed to do when a group of people are militarizing themselves against the government? You know, and so
Raven (1:02:00)
Mm-hmm.
Right, right.
Pisha (1:02:13)
At what point does it become okay for the government to treat these people like a terrorist group and like a threat to national security? And so that's what I wanna explore because that's where I'm confused. This looks like, kind of like we're gonna talk about this in Waco, people who militarize themselves for the purpose of fighting the government from taking them and holding them accountable. How far can the government go to hold these people
Raven (1:02:18)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (1:02:43)
accountable because they can't just arm themselves forever and barricade themselves on their property and threaten to kill any officer who tries to legally take them in for crimes they've committed. And so I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out. At what point does the government get to treat people who are actively arming themselves for the purpose of fighting the government and maybe even overthrowing it?
Raven (1:03:09)
Soon.
Pisha (1:03:11)
and, and I guess that wouldn't be the case here where it's just as family, but later on it becomes like literal group. Yeah. Where, where is it a domestic terrorist group that is taking up arms against our government and they're knowingly violating the laws of our land, knowing the consequences that the government will come after them and they will kill the government when they try to legally take them in. You know what I mean? Like it feels like.
Raven (1:03:16)
Right, where is the breaking point? Right.
Absolutely.
Pisha (1:03:40)
government's hands are tied, they're like, oh, well, we'll just back off and stay off your property until you decide to turn yourself in. That doesn't seem like a reasonable answer. And so I'm trying to find out what the reasonable answer is. And I definitely agree with you that it's not just shooting all of these people and killing them. And...
Raven (1:03:41)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Right, right. But I think that's a fantastic point. I really do. Yeah, it's, that's just why this is so hard to talk about. And I think, you know, we're exploring and we're going to say some things that, you know, are maybe completely off base, and that's okay, but at least
Pisha (1:04:10)
Right!
And we might even disagree with next episode, like with more research that we do. Like I've found that my perspective has shift just talking about this one case, oh, like back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. So, I mean, we could probably keep talking about this for hours and hours and hours, and we basically have talked ourselves into exhaustion. So I'm cutting us off. I'm cutting us off, Raven. We are done for the night.
Raven (1:04:22)
Yeah!
Me too, yeah.
Okay.
Pisha (1:04:49)
That was Ruby Ridge. Whatever we did not cover, our deranged adult listeners can look up for themselves. And I hope we just inspired them to look more into this and to think about it so that when we come back next week to talk about Waco, we can have some even more good discussion about this. Even more good? Even more gooder. Even more gooder discussion about this.
Raven (1:05:10)
Yeah, I've... ..
Yeah, this is how we know it's time. Thank you for cutting us off. But I do. I.
Pisha (1:05:21)
You're welcome. I was a bartender in my previous life, so I know how to do that.
Raven (1:05:24)
I just have to say that I appreciate your perspective so much. And I think it's shaping mine and I hope we can back and forth like this. Yeah, yeah. So anyway. Thanks for listening.
Pisha (1:05:34)
Vice versa, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I'm so thankful you're here with your rational mind to temper all of my emotion going on. So I really appreciate it. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I appreciate your perspective so much. I love it. I love opening and broadening my mind and my own perspective because of, you know, the things you've taught me. So this is gonna be, yeah.
Raven (1:05:41)
We need a little bit of both. We need a little bit of both, yeah.
And same.
Pisha (1:06:00)
This is going to be a fun month. Next week we're talking about Waco. And in the meantime, like, follow, listen, subscribe, tell your friends. And until next time, stay out of law school and the infirmaries.
Raven Deranger (1:06:17)
Remember to like and subscribe to Deranged DeJure on your favorite podcast platform and follow at deranged.dejure on all the major social media. Contact us by email at deranged.dejure at gmail.com. This has been a Raven Kink production.