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This podcast is about internet culture and the relationships we build (or lose) as a result. Join Sean Lukasik as he talks with authors, speakers, and thought leaders about their work - and how the internet has played a role, for better or worse.
Sean Lukasik:
Lieutenant Joe Torrillo, thanks so much for joining me on the Paesanos podcast. I appreciate you taking some time to talk today.
Joe Torrillo:
Thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate it.
Sean Lukasik:
Yeah, so we actually met going back about 15 years ago, you came to Elmira, New York to talk about your experience on September 11 2001. And I think it's important before we get into any other topics to learn a little bit about for those who don't know what you experienced on that day. And kind of the thoughts that you have as you think back almost 22 years ago at this point.
Joe Torrillo:
Well, I have to kind of start off by giving you a little bit of a back story, only because for the people that are going to be listening to this podcast, it might be important to them. So you get to know something more about me in a deeper sense.
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
I went to an old boys Catholic high school in Brooklyn, New York, which was very typical back in the sixties and seventies. And after graduating high school, I didn't really have a whole lot of aspiration of going to college. I didn't come from a family of professionals. There were no lawyers and doctors. You know, there were blue collar civil service workers. And so I thought that, you know, not having any aspirations to be some kind of professional, I'd have to get some kind of a civil service job working for one of the city agencies. But I decided to go to college and I wanted to study architecture and engineering because my real passion in life is the construction industry, right? When I was a kid, I wanted to be a carpenter. I always wanted to work with my hands, but I had nobody to teach me.
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
And I actually taught myself the various building trades, and I got very good at it. So I went to college just to kind of learn more about the construction process. And after graduating college, I was taking all these civil service exams. And I decided that if I was going to be a civil servant, that I should probably choose one of the agencies that paid the most and had a little prestige, which at that time, was either the New York City Police Department or the New York City Fire Department. A lot of guys from my neighborhood back in Brooklyn, New York, they were in a similar situation such as I. Not a lot of high aspirations. None of us came from professional families, as I said. And so I was taking all the civil service exams, and I thought I was going to be a New York City police officer because my uncle was a New York City police officer and his son was a first grade detective in Manhattan, which is a very, very difficult rank. to attain. Back in the late 70s, I was doing a little home improvement project for one of my neighbors, and his nephew was a plumber. He was doing the plumbing work. I was doing the carpentry, and he just happened to be moonlighting as a New York City firefighter doing the plumbing. His father owned the plumbing business. So we got to work together on this project, and he said, you know what, Joe? He says, you should really consider taking the test for the New York City Fire Department's coming out in December of 1977. He says, with your skills and with our work schedule, he says, you know, you could always have a little side hustle. And that was music to my ears because my parents really weren't really the kind of wealthy. They weren't wealthy. I mean, they always provided for us. So I always thought in life that I wanted things and I would have to work for them and I had no problem with that. So I took the police department exam, I took the fire department exam. I scored very well on both and I actually got called by the New York City Police Department. I was going into the academy and at the same time I got a letter in the mail from the New York City Fire Department asking me if I wanted to be appointed. So I had to call up the investigator at the police department, the sergeant, I forget his name, and I told him I got the letter from the fire department. He says, hey kid. He says, uh. If I was you, I would take the fire department to a better job. He's the cop who talked me into taking the fire department job.
Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.
Joe Torrillo:
But you know what? In all truth from this, Sean, I have to be honest. What really drew me more to the fire department over the police department was the work schedule. You know, most of us work 24 hours straight and then we're off for three days. So basically we work one day on three off, one on three off. And I saw that opportunity on my days off to be able to practice my trade of carpentry. I just wanted to be the best carpenter in the world because the construction industry was really my passion. So I went into the fire department, not for all the right and novel reasons that you might suspect, right? I went in there really to capitalize on their work schedule. I wasn't abusing my position with the fire department, but like I said, it was just a beautiful benefit of having those. days off.
Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.
Joe Torrillo:
So, get your...
Sean Lukasik:
I was going to say, and having that knowledge of carpentry and engineering, I understand turned out to be pretty beneficial.
Joe Torrillo:
Well, you know what, it's so ironic because I was taking a curriculum called construction technology. So, it's half architecture and half structural engineering. And the whole goal that when we graduated from college, that we would end up working for a huge construction company as a superintendent on a high-rise project, either commercial or residential. But I don't really think that was my intention. I just wanted to learn more. about architecture and engineering because it was a passion to me, right? So when I was in college, two of my professors, Lewis Radioly, who passed away about eight years ago, and George Borey, who was a light-skinned African-American civil engineer, they were both working for a company called Dick Underhill, who was the biggest concrete contractor in the world. And they worked for Dick Underhill, and Dick Underhill had the contract for concrete placement on the Twin Towers. and they were part-time structural engineering professors. So with their position working for Dick Underhill, they were able to take me and the other engineering students on a class trip down to the Twin Towers when they were going up to kind of study them and check out this new lightweight novel steel support system. And we would marvel at the fact at the time on these class trips that these buildings, which were gonna be the biggest buildings in the world back in the 1970s, they seemed to be so lightweight and flimsy. and missing the requisite amount of steel that should be holding up, you know, as compared to older conventional construction like the Empire State Building. But the professor said, no, this is a new lightweight vertical design and everything's going to be okay. But I always remember that. But then the letter comes from the fire department. I turn the police department down. I go into New York City fire department, go through the whole training academy. And of all 357 firehouses in New York City, they could arbitrarily place me to begin my career. There was a brand new firehouse right across the street from the South Tower, and that's where they placed me. So now I'm back as a firefighter, protecting these towers, and no longer an engineering student studying them. And all that knowledge came back to me on the day of September 11th, when those buildings were attacked twice within 17 minutes of each other.
Sean Lukasik:
Now let's talk about that morning because as someone who was not necessarily responsible for running into a burning building, you know, you were you were there as a civil engineering expert. And I know that you were doing some education at the time. How did you end up running toward the fire that morning?
Joe Torrillo:
Well, that's part of a very interesting and ironic story. Anybody who's 28 years of age or older today, all around the world would remember where they were when America was attacked four times in three different locations on the horrific day of September 11, 2001. And I just wanna make something clear to the listening audience, I'm not really an expert in civil engineering. I'm more knowledgeable than most people, when I had enough knowledge about those towers that I made an assessment. Immediately that the towers were doomed to collapse. Nobody would listen to me. Nobody would believe me We weren't sitting around at a conference table discussing this so I was using it was unfolding But just prior to 9-eleven on 2001 I was a newly promoted lieutenant in 1996 I left that firehouse across the street from the World Trade Center was there for 15 years beginning in 1981 And after 15 years on the fire department, with no pun intended, it was time for me to try and start climbing the ladder, become a lieutenant, maybe a captain, possibly a chief, just for monetary reasons, because my wife was a stay-at-home mom and I needed another, you know, a little second side hustle besides my carpentry business. And so I got promoted to lieutenant in 1996. I was working in a different area of New York City because they don't let you stay in your original firehouse. They don't want you supervising your friends. the fighter bomb trying to turn
Sean Lukasik:
Sure.
Joe Torrillo:
you into a manager, which really never happens, because I don't care what firehouse you work in, it's a different circus with the same clowns. But
Sean Lukasik:
the
Joe Torrillo:
in any event, they think this whole process works and you're becoming quote unquote a manager, which is really never necessary in the firefighting field. We're all brothers, we share each other's expertise, whether it's a lieutenant, captain, or chief, it don't matter.
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
But in any event. But I didn't think I promoted to lieutenant. I got hurt very seriously in a fire one night, trying to rescue a trap woman, and my left thumb was almost cut off in my hand when a huge skylight was smashed out of the roof by firefighters letting the smoke and the heat out. And I was going up the stairs and the glass almost came, the glass did come down as I was underneath it on the staircase going up to the second level. And the glass from the skylight went right through my left hand and they rushed me to the hospital. to stitch my left thumb back together. And it was a near career of ending injury and I was devastated because I was a new lieutenant and I was already studying for the captain's test, but they said I was gonna be out of work for about a year as I was convalescing and I ended up working in headquarters at a desk job, which I never worked in an office in my life. I didn't even have to turn the computer on and I was hoping they wouldn't make me answer telephones because if you called headquarters and I answered, you'd probably think it was Tony Soprano's house and you would
Sean Lukasik:
Ha
Joe Torrillo:
just
Sean Lukasik:
ha
Joe Torrillo:
hang
Sean Lukasik:
ha.
Joe Torrillo:
up the phone and say, screw you, Tony. But in any event, I entered a book in the Office of Fire Safety Education. I didn't know we had an Office of Fire Safety Education. And Nessence was a group of firefighters like me, combolesting from various injuries and illnesses. Because we couldn't be active in a firehouse, they would send us out Monday to Friday to one of the 3,000 schools in New York City and go into the classroom and talk to the students about both surviving and preventing fires. Right. And I knew nothing about this. And ironically, during my tenure, I get so good at it, they named me the director of the whole program, which was a life-changing event. And as the new director of the Fire Department's Fire Safety Education Program, I thought we should have a learning center where kids can go on a school trip and May Giuliani loved the idea. I got a $3 million budget and I designed the first state-of-the-art fire safety learning center in the world in the heart of Manhattan, next to Radio City Musical and Rockefeller Center called the Fire Zone. and I worked two years on that project. We opened in October 2000, and we got nominated for a very prestigious award called the TEA Award. It's an Emmy equivalent for venues of themed entertainment. And so I was very proud of this project, and there's more to the story, which maybe we'll get into later.
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
So after we opened up the Learning Center in October 2000, we won this prestigious TEA Award. Then in January 2001, all the pressure is off. I'm now spending my time promoting my learning center. When I got a phone call from a company called Fisher Price Toys, I think around January 4th of 2001, nine months before the attack. And I pick up the phone in my office in headquarters and it's Fisher Price. And I said, you have the wrong number. This is Fire Department headquarters. And they said, no, we know who we're speaking to. This is Lieutenant Torello, yes. How can I help you? Anyway. Fisher-Fries had a whole line of little action figures called rescue heroes that kids loved. A little police officer called Jake Justice, his partner called Bill Barker, a canine officer. Their boss, Sergeant Cyrene, their supervisor, Captain Cuffs. An Hamilton attendant called Perry Medic, a lifeguard called Sandy Beach, a construction worker called Jack Hammer, an astronaut called Roger Houston, a scuba diver called Gil Gripper, a mountain climber called- Rocky Canyon and his partner Cliff Hanger, a medevac pilot by the name of Hallie Kopter. And they had a female firefighter called Wendy Waters and now they wanted a New York City firefighter to be their new rescue hero. They're gonna call him Billy Blazes. And I helped them design this new action figure and I was gonna get a dollar for everyone sold around the world to support my public education program. So in January of 2001, I set up a meeting in headquarters and the Fisher Price executives came with the artists, illustrators and toy designers. And for a whole day as I'm talking about what a firefighter looks like, what is firefighter clothing, his air tank, his tools and equipment. The artists and illustrators had art pads on easels with crayons and markers and they're sketching as I'm speaking at the end of the day, fully sketched out. They have this new art action figure called Billy Blazer, the New York City Firefighter. They took the artwork and went to the factory and six months later in July 2001 they had the prototype made and they wanted us to look it over before we went to mass production. So on the first week of July 2001, I set up a meeting with my bosses and we looked over this prototype and we thought they should make some kind of changes if in fact he was gonna be more signature of New York City firefighter. So one of the things they thought he should have a big mustache like me and they drew a big mustache and we molded him with that mustache. And that took about three weeks and it was now the end of July 2001, they called up for another meeting. We looked it over once again and now we agreed in going to mass production and Fisher Price was so excited. I was told by my boss to act excited, whether or not I was enthused or not. I didn't really think much about this new action figure. And they wanted to have a big press conference in New York City and they says, where can we have a press conference? Well, I was coming upon the first anniversary of the opening of my learning center. I said, why don't we do the press conference at the fire zone? And they said, what's that? I said, it's the new Children's Learning Center I co-designed to open last year. We won the Thea Award. This is, oh my God, can we really do it there? I said, of course, I'm the director. They said, oh my God, this is getting better and better. How apropos, we'll introduce the new rescue here at the new Children's Fire Safety Learning Center. They said, okay, we know where, but when can we do it? Well, the meeting was in the end of July, 2001. I said, let's do it in October. And they said, okay, why? I said, October's fire prevention month. I think it's a natural tie to this project. That's the longest running health initiative in the world. It goes back to 1871 after the Great Chicago Fire and they rebuilt Chicago when supposedly Mrs. O'Leary's cow kicked over a lantern in a barn and burnt down Chicago. I don't know if that story was ever proven, but in any event, they thought that was very apropos, but it was too close to Christmas and the holiday season. They wanted to get Billy Blaze on the mark a little bit sooner. Well, October was too distant. This was the end of July of 2001, and I was brainstorming. You know, 911 is the emergency phone number in New York City. Why don't we for the first time have a 911 themed safety day? We can talk about how to prevent fires, how to survive fires, and introduce this new rescue hero, Billy Blazers. And the Fisher Price executive says, Oh, my God, that's such a great novel idea. So on 911, we're having a safety day on September 11, 2001, at nine o'clock in the morning. Every TV station, every newspaper reporter was waiting for me in Rockefeller Center. to introduce the new rescue hero, a New York City firefighter called Billy Blazers. And I got to my office early that morning. I wanted to catch up on voice mails and email scheduling, payroll. And it was about 20 minutes to nine and I realized, oh my God, I got 20 minutes to get into Manhattan from Brooklyn. I better get out of here now. I didn't realize how the time had passed that morning. I just got so involved in paperwork and office work. And as I was heading out of the office and headquarters, somebody said, a plane just hit the World Trade Center. And there was an image on the TV, which I thought was a hoax. I thought it was a simulation. I thought it was a movie. And everybody was telling me, no, this really just happened. And of course, the first thing I'm thinking about are the firefighters in that firehouse across the street. I had broken them all into the fire department when they graduated the training academy, because I was the senior firefighter before I left in 1996. And I was just thinking, you know, hey, what the heck is really going on? But I thought it was probably like a little plane. I didn't think much of it. I was just really nervous that I'd get caught in traffic with all the emergency vehicles responding into Manhattan that I better get out of headquarters immediately and beat the traffic and the fire engines and police cars and ambulances. And I raced out of headquarters in my fire department vehicle and two blocks away was the Brooklyn Bridge going into Manhattan. As I'm racing over the Brooklyn Bridge, I'm looking to the left. About an eighth of a mile away, I could see about ten floors of fire on the North Tower. And I realized, you know, this is more than I thought. And by the time I got onto the Manhattan side of the Brooklyn Bridge, which was probably about 15 to 20 seconds from the Brooklyn to the Manhattan side, I had to make an impromptu decision. What do I do? Do I make a right and go to Rockefeller Center to the press conference? Or do I make a left and go to my firehouse where I began my career? spring into action and that's a choice I made I said the heck with Billy Blazes this ain't happening today and I got to my old firehouse at about nine o'clock in the morning 14 minutes after the first jet struck at 846 by American Airlines flight number 11 with 87 people on board it struck the 93rd to the 99th floor and I parked my car on the sidewalk in the back of the firehouse because I remembered from the bombing in 1993 Don't block the streets with emergency vehicles so we can get ambulances to and from hospitals. And I ran around to the front of the firehouse. Both doors were open and both fire engines had already responded before I was there. And I wanted to get into the firehouse with the doors open, but people were laying all over the floor in the firehouse. People got hit with jet fuel pieces in the building. People were scared and frightened. They were running, saw a firehouse with the doors open and just ran in there as a haven of safety. They trampled each other and... They were laying on top of each other like pickup sticks. Some had burnt clothes, some were screaming, some were crying, some were in shock, some were bleeding. But nobody was in critical condition. So I grabbed a set of firefighting clothing from another fireman who was off duty, Lieutenant Tommy McNamara. And I ran out of the firehouse. And I had to run past the South Tower on Liberty Street to get to West Street, where the North Tower was. And as I'm running past the South Tower, it's now 903, which incidentally happens to be my lucky number in my life. Those three digits played themselves out in every combination for reasons I'll never understand. 903, 093, 039, what have you. But at 903, the second jet came right over my head. United Airlines Flight 175, and I watched it slam into the south tower between the 77th and the 85th floor. Now I realize, A, we're under a terrorist attack. The second thing I said was that everybody on the top of the towers are going to die above the point of impact. It was so obvious to me that... They would never get down and we would never get to them. And then they would start hanging out the window, waving nautical clothing, and imagining that I'm hearing them say to me, hurry up here and get us, we can't take this no more. I wish I didn't hear their voice, but I'm imagining that they're trying to get my attention on the ground below that the situation up there was untenable. And at some point, they just started jumping out of the building anyway. They just couldn't take it anymore. He asked me if two to three hundred people had jumped, they're coming down like raindrops, and hardest thing was not getting hit by one of these jumpers, as we call them, right? And the third thing I said was, I said the towers are gonna collapse, and people looked at me, they couldn't understand why I was saying that, but I was adamant, and of course, why did I say that? Well, because I had studied these buildings in college, and I knew that they would not withstand, I wasn't really concerned so much with the amount of fire, it was the amount of structural damage. coupled with the fire that I knew those buildings would not stand.
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
But nobody could understand me and nobody could believe me. But 55 minutes later, the South Tower collapsed. I was right underneath it. I started running, but I didn't make it.
Sean Lukasik:
Now, you mentioned that when you saw images of the first plane hitting the North tower that you thought this could be a simulation, this is made up what is what is going on, it was hard for you to believe and you know, since then, people have turned to places like YouTube and other dark corners of the internet to say just that it was in fact a simulation that it was fake that you know, this is something that Maybe she couldn't have possibly happened Have you seen those narratives unfold and what's your reaction been to that narrative?
Joe Torrillo:
Okay, well back in 2006, we had an organization in New York City called the September 11th Family Association. It's a group of people who lost their loved ones and came together to form this organization because they had a lot of issues that needed to be resolved. One of the biggest issues was collecting insurance policies on those that were declared dead and missing, right? So that was the original goal. And then after that, they realized that they wanted people like you and other people who come to New York City as visitors, they want you to get to learn more about what happened that day in a very correct and respectful way. So they asked a bunch of us if we would join the organization and take people on a walking tour. This was long before the new World Trade Center was ever under reconstruction because people were coming down. to the Low Manhattan area after going to like a Broadway show or Central Park or going out to Chinatown for dinner. They'd come down to Low Manhattan area and stare through a chain link fence that surrounded the pit of the collapse of the towers, just wondering what was going on. And they needed to feel connected somehow. So we would take them on a walking tour and people like me who were survivors, who were responders, and you can tell the story as I'm telling the story today.
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
And for them, it was very gratifying to hear the story correctly and respectfully. Through the words of somebody who lived through, it's almost like walking into a talking history book, right? And as I was taking these people on these walking tours, I would get confronted by these people called truthers. Those people would be hanging around Lone Haddon area and approaching the people looking through the chain link fence and trying to convince them that this was what we would call a false flag incident. I don't know if you ever heard of that before. Have you heard of something called false flag?
Sean Lukasik:
Well, only under certain circumstances. So I'd love to hear how you would describe it.
Joe Torrillo:
Okay, very simply, false flag, it's a concept where people believe, especially conspiracy theorists, they believe that a country attacks itself under disguise. And how did that come about? Well, back on December 7, 1941, there were conspiracy theorists who believed that our government put Japanese flags on American planes and bombed Pearl Harbor to draw us into World War II. That became known as false flag. So... People still believe that September 11th was a false flag incident with our own government attacked the Twin Towers and the Pentagon in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, so that we could be drawn into a war over in Iran and Afghanistan. And of course, nothing is further from the truth. So these people confront me and some of them could be kind of arrogant and nasty and belligerent. And of course, the worst part about the whole thing is that... They know nothing about the construction of the World Trade Center. They have very little facts. Matter of fact, they have no facts at all. It's all erroneous conspiracy theories and ideas. And so, yeah, I have to confront these people. And one of the things I would love is to do a nationally televised debate with anybody and everybody who believes that this was a conspiracy. And I will chew these people apart. And Sean, you gotta believe that as one of the few survivors of the collapse of the Twin Towers, I got buried twice that day declared for three days. If anybody has an incentive to hold the government responsible, certainly people just like me or people who lost their loved ones. And I can tell you 100% this was no con- that all these conspiracy theories are all hogwash. Uh, they- they don't hold any water whatsoever. I can poke holes in everything they have to say. and I will confront all of their so-called facts and turn them into myths.
Sean Lukasik:
Well, let's go back because you left us when you were or you left the story, excuse me, when you were running from the collapse of the South Tower and you said you didn't make it. And so what happened when the South Tower collapsed, which you thought was going to happen, you just didn't think it would happen that soon.
Joe Torrillo:
No, I didn't think the collapse would occur to probably sometime about three o'clock in the afternoon. Of course, this is a wild guesstimation, as you can imagine. But I think what I was really worried about mostly that day was the EMTs and paramedics who were setting up their triage area, which is a treatment area in the lobby of Boat Towers, which is the logical place to have your triage, right? Because as victims and... and firefights and police officers that were overwhelmed were coming down the stairs from up above the part of the towers that were hot and smoky and bringing down injured people. You could treat them right in the lobby before you actually scooped them up and put them in ambulances and got them to hospitals. But I realized that, you know what, at the end of the day, the most important people at the scene would be EMTs and paramedics. And one thing I wanna make very perfectly clear, People think about September 11, 2001 in New York City at the Twin Towers, the two of the four attacks, that this was the biggest firefighting incident in history. Actually, that's not true. This was not a firefighting incident. I don't even think we got a drop of water on either one of those fires in either of the towers. This was basically an evacuation effort and medical treatment event. So the real people who really... that Bobby did the most with EMTs and the paramedics, along with the firefighters and police officers. There was a joint effort, and basically just rescuing people and not an extinguishing operation. Trying to put that fire out would have been almost impossible and I don't even believe that we even made an attempt to do that. But in any event, getting back to what you had asked me, so the people I was really worried about was getting the EMTs and paramedics out of the... tower and getting them in their ambulances and driving about six blocks away added the collapse zone of the towers. And of course they didn't want to leave this and who the hell are you? You got no authority. We don't work for you. And I didn't have the authority. I guess I gave myself that authority. I wasn't a fire chief or just a lieutenant. But in any event, they knew I was adamant. And I got the last crew away from the towers and a couple of minutes, a couple of probably less than a minute later, I was outside the south tower. right underneath it, outside the building. And I heard a rumble on the wall and I looked up and the tower's collapsing. And I said to myself, you idiot, you're the one who knew the building was gonna collapse and you put yourself right underneath it. And I realized I probably had about 10 to 15 seconds left to live. And I think my biggest fear was that my body was never gonna be identified. So I started running as fast as I can. There was a footbridge that went over the main thoroughfare by the hotel, which was in between the two towers, which was number three World Trade Center. And I thought if I could make it underneath the footbridge, maybe they would find a piece of my body or maybe I might even survive this. I started running towards that footbridge and as I'm running the building's coming down what we call a pancake type of collapse. One floor hitting the floor below. And as each floor is hitting the floor below, it's puffing air out like a fireplace, bellows. And I could feel the air pressure on the back of my neck as each floor was hitting the floor below and then the air pressure was getting stronger and stronger. The air pressure took my helmet off my head and my helmet was flying through the air and then the air pressure lifted me off my feet. The estimate was like a tornado gust, like 200 miles an hour, I don't know who came up with that but that's what I've often heard people say because it shattered windows a couple blocks away in a lot of the residential high-rise buildings so that air pressure had to be really super strong, almost like a bomb went off. and lifting me off my feet and then a piece of steel hit me in the back of the head and you slept the concrete just hit my body and now I'm buried and I'm surrounded in this darkness by other people screaming at the top of their lungs. I got a fractured skull, my ribs are broken, my arm is broken, my neck and spine is crushed, I'm bleeding internally and I'm suffocating. There's no more air, there's no more light under this huge dust cloud. and I could hear people screaming all around me in the darkness and after a while those screams turned into silence. I guess one by one they all died. And then I was in the middle of all these fires and I actually did something I hadn't done in a long time. I closed my eyes and I said a prayer and I thank God for my career. I didn't want to die angry. I just didn't realize that one day this would be happening to me, although I took a vow so many years before and becoming a fine man, I'd be willing to give up my life. in an effort to save life and property. And I said to myself, you never thought you'd live up to that vow, and today you are. And I closed my eyes, I said a prayer, and I was hoping I would suffocate before I burnt to death. And about 25 minutes later, they found a void, and they found four of us and got us out. And they put me on a stretch, and they ran to the Hudson River, where boats had come from New Jersey to get people out of New York City. You couldn't get out of New York City any other way doing no busses, trains, cars. You either ran... over the east side of Manhattan, over the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridge, where you're able to hop on a boat on the Hudson River. They put me on the deck of a boat, they hold my head closed. Then I heard them say I was going to die if I couldn't get to a hospital. And there was another loud rumble in the wall and everybody on the boat started screaming, oh my God, here comes the other building. Now the North tower starts collapsing across the street towards the boat and millions of shards of glass and rain down on the deck of the boat. Everybody jumped overboard and left me behind. Strap down. to a long spine board. They thought I had a broken neck. They just didn't know. I was all banged up. I was broken apart. And I broke free from the stretcher and I jumped into a doorway but ended up diving head first into the engine room and out of North Tower, buried the boat on the river and I'm suffocating all over again.
Sean Lukasik:
And, and the, there's so much trauma that goes with the experience that you've been sharing now for 20 years. I mean, you've been going around to schools and corporate events and groups all around the country to share your experience. And I know that there's a lot of trauma built into that. And, you know, going back to these. truthers and the people that are using the internet in such a negative way. Do you ever feel like they're poking fun at this event, or just doing it for their own exposure or to try to maybe make some money on ads or whatever is their incentive for doing this kind of stuff?
Joe Torrillo:
You know what? These are the people that focus a lot on all kinds of political issues that are going on in this country. Everybody knows what's happening in the United States since Joe Biden got into office and it seems like the country has taken a negative turn. And there's a lot of people in this country, I think just everybody in the country feels very negative at this time, they're wondering whether our current president is making all the right decisions. I don't know what the mindset is. I just know that from just talking to friends and family and people that I meet, everybody just feels very negative at this point. So there's a lot of negativity all around surrounding the whole world at this point. I have to tell you the truth. I don't think the world has ever been in this position
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
in the life of the earth. And there were people who actually, sometimes I wonder if they have nothing better to do than to promote all these conspiracy theories. I don't know if they're doing it because they're ignorant, they're uninformed, they take joy in doing this. I'll never figure these people out. And I don't have a problem with anybody casting their opinion. I mean, that's your right under the laws of this country. But if you're going to come out and make statements, certainly you should have some valid proof. There's
Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.
Joe Torrillo:
a big difference between having an opinion and having proof. And that's where I draw the line. And of
Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.
Joe Torrillo:
course, you know, with social media, it's easier to get these conspiracy theories out there. And there are some people in this country, they just want to believe all this stuff. You know, like they, a lot of conspiracy around COVID-19 and, you know, you're always going to get these people. And so that's the negative part about, I think, social media is that bad and bad and, and false information actually travels, almost at the speed of light at this point and, and of course. and it begins to affect the total morale of this country.
Sean Lukasik:
Yeah, and you know, people sometimes want to hold these social media companies accountable because they're the ones that are putting the content out there. You know, if if, for example, someone is into conspiracy theory about aliens, then they might be served a video that has to do with other conspiracy theories. And eventually, they become someone who doesn't believe in 911 or someone who believes COVID is a hoax. And, and so there's some accountability, I think, to the social media companies themselves for even promoting this content that's out there. And you talked about, you know, that you would love to get on a debate stage with some of these people. Do you think the debate maybe should take place with the social media companies themselves that are perpetuating this information?
Joe Torrillo:
You know what, that's a good question, Sean. I think it should be done not just once, but over and over again on different social media platforms. I just want people to hear my voice, not because I get anything out of it. I just want the truth to be told. And I want people who are conspiracy theorists, maybe I can just turn them around 180 degrees. Maybe they've never heard the story and the information from somebody like me. And I don't blame anybody who necessarily buys into conspiracy theories because the way they promote it, some of the stuff can almost sound like it's authentic and it's correct.
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
But like everything and anything, in life you always got to give yourself a chance to look at issues and look at people from a different perspective than you normally would always look at people. And I think in life we normally don't do that. because of the way we grew up, the mindset, our culture, we look at things from a certain perspective, whereas I try to look at things from every perspective to see if I could see things a little bit differently. I think
Sean Lukasik:
And,
Joe Torrillo:
that's
Sean Lukasik:
and
Joe Torrillo:
important.
Sean Lukasik:
I imagine, I imagine your experience has given you some perspective that most people just could never have. And I know, in just trying to set up this interview that you're someone who prefers phone calls, you're, you're someone who would like to meet in person whenever possible. And you've built relationships, real life relationships. We had a short conversation before we started recording just about You know, the term paisanos and the paisanos podcast and a paisano being someone who is real and someone who is part of your community, someone that you sort of treat like family. Um, what are your thoughts and what's the perspective that you've gained about the relationships that you have in your life as someone who really doesn't use social media that much or someone who doesn't use, um, the internet as much as others.
Joe Torrillo:
You know what? I don't really use it so much in a social sense. I use it more like in a business sense to help get my name out there as an inspirational speaker. You know, people think that I'm one of like a hundred thousand people that do motivational speaking. I'm not a motivational speaker. I'm an inspirational speaker. I think that what I try to do is inspire people to motivate. themselves in a way that could be very, very positive. So I mean, let's face it, I mean, social media, I think, could be a very, very good thing. This electronic world that we're in, you know, it's never going away. It's going to get bigger and bigger and stronger and stronger. And of course, there are a lot of negativity that surrounds it, as we said, because you have people out there just spreading erroneous information and that's going to happen. People just got to be smart enough to always listen. You know, listen to the good, listen to the bad. Sometimes you have a lot to learn from listening to people that talk about bad stuff because you realize how untruthful some of that stuff is.
Sean Lukasik:
Thanks for watching!
Joe Torrillo:
So I listen to the good or listen to the bad and I decipher it, I dissect it and I try to figure it out. And I think everybody has an ability to do that. But on the upside of the electronic world... I think there's a huge benefit to it. Something that I feel really passionate about at this point in my life, I'm always a person full of compassion and empathy. And I try to get other people to become more compassionate towards others and have more empathy towards people and sympathy besides empathy, right? To try and help people when they need the help most because when you're in trouble, I'm in trouble or something's not going right. We don't
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
want to feel like we're alone. But I think what happens is that one of the big problems that I feel that's been going on for a long time, something I feel strongly about, is the educational process as a whole all over the world. I think through social media, I think through the internet, we have a way of educating the public a lot better than what we've been doing for so long, doing the conventional way of education, which is through the spoken word. AKA a teacher, professor, or the written word, or those hideous textbooks that I used to hate. And
Sean Lukasik:
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.
Joe Torrillo:
I think that, you know, when we talk about the educational process, I think what we're talking about is how do we transform, how do we transform information from one person to another, right? That's what the educational process is all about. It's transferring information. absorbing it and digesting it. So like why do I have to read some hideous textbook? Why do I need to extract information when it can be delivered to me in a tutorial-based environment?
Sean Lukasik:
Hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
And I think if we went more strongly towards tutorial-based education, the benefit is that we also have, we have the resources to bring parents into the educational process that teachers expect in educators, right? They want other than what parents involved in the education process of their children. Well, of course I understand that because that's part of their responsibility. But how am I going to get involved in my children's education process when I've been at a school for 40 plus years, I'm holding down two or three jobs to keep the roof above the house and the roof away from the store. But if you had a tutorial based education, you now give the parents the resources to be involved in the children's education. And on the flip side of this whole thing. What are we doing? We actually having an opportunity to re-educate America through tutorial based. And anybody who wants some example, look, how many of us actually go to YouTube when we need to do something? Seeing is believing.
Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.
Joe Torrillo:
And if I could, my quest in this life, and I probably never get this opportunity, but I would love to meet Bill Gates. And I think Bill Gates has the ability. and the resources to create a new learning environment that's more tutorial-based. And I'm not taking anything away from teachers, but
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
I just feel that if we went more towards tutorial-based in conjunction with teachers, that kids would gravitate more towards learning and not dislike school so much.
Sean Lukasik:
Yeah. And I think having conversations like these and being able to share this on, on YouTube or on Spotify on different mediums where people are going to get information and to get content, it doesn't address the whole sort of curriculum based, uh, tutorials that you're talking about. But I think, um, there are ways to add to what's out there on the internet. Um, and add to the conversation with, with good, truthful. and holistic information.
Joe Torrillo:
You know what, Sean, think about it like this here. Did you ever take a biology course or a chemistry course?
Sean Lukasik:
Sure, yeah.
Joe Torrillo:
Okay, so I remember when I was in high school, I went to an old boys Catholic high school, it was all very academic. There were no shop classes, you know, everything was science and mathematics and English and what have you, sociology. But
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
in any event, you know, everybody gets a biology textbook when you're in your freshman year. And of course, you know, within this. textbook, you're reading about the different systems of the body, whether it's the circulatory system, the endocrine system, or what have you. And you're reading about the first chapter on, say, the circulatory system, and you're reading this chapter. And when you read anything, I don't care if it's a newspaper, a book, a pamphlet, when you read something, you've got to realize that as you're reading, those written words are transforming an image in your head,
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
right? You don't realize, but that's exactly what happens. You're reading a newspaper story, you're reading an advertisement, you're reading a book, a magazine. Inside your head and my head, there's an image. Our images could be very different from each other, right? Because we're two different people, we might see things differently. So when you're reading about something like the circulatory system, there's an image in your head. You're saying, talking about how the lungs pump, how the heart. pumps the blood into the lungs and the lungs goes into the tissues of the body. And of course, you can't see that because you can't see inside a human body.
Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.
Joe Torrillo:
But if you're doing this through a simulation on a computer screen and people who know how to do simulation with the information, it all becomes so much more understandable.
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
And like I said, there's so many concepts, it's just so hard to grasp that if it's done through really good simulation and people who have the resources to do it. like Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates, all they would have to do is identify the people in this country that are an expert in their field and take that information with computer experts and do a lot of simulation on concepts that are hard to grasp. I think the learning becomes so much more fun and so much better. I would love to learn a lot more about George Washington. I'm not gonna read a book about George Washington. I'm not a big reader. I mean,
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
I'm educated. I just, not the type of guy that likes to read books for whatever reason.
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
I would rather watch a documentary. I want you to deliver the information to me. I don't wanna go and look for it and extract it.
Sean Lukasik:
Yeah, yeah. Well,
Joe Torrillo:
I
Sean Lukasik:
and,
Joe Torrillo:
don't know if that makes sense to you, but I'm just.
Sean Lukasik:
oh, it totally makes sense. And I do, there are more and more examples of that, you know, parts of YouTube and Netflix and some of those streaming platforms do have sections dedicated to obscure documentaries. But I think to your point, going back to just some of the basics and, and providing students with different ways of learning. Some students are readers. Some students have to hear it, some have to see it in a video. Um, and, uh, and I love those opportunities that we have thanks to the internet and thanks to, you know, some of the companies that, um, do take some responsibility and delivering that information. Um, I want to just, uh, kind of finish by going back to your experience and asking about. how that has shaped you as a person over the past 22 years. Obviously, it has. It's changed your career, you know, you've become an inspirational speaker, you've had the opportunity to share your story with so many people. But but how has that experience in 2001 shaped who you are as a person today?
Joe Torrillo:
Well, you know, I think that, you know, every single day of my life, and of course, mostly during the times when I'm doing speaking, I always have to relive that day and tell the stories. I'm always reflecting on the chronological timeline of that event. I realize how important it is for me to be able to share this story and get the story out there very correctly and very respectfully to people. But on the other side of the coin, there was a negative part of this as well. I was forced into a disability, retirement. This February coming 2024 will be 20 years, almost as long as I served. And I'm angry about that for a lot of different reasons. There was a financial implication of it. There's my health concerns. A lot of things are going wrong with me right now. I got lung issues and I was just diagnosed last week with Parkinson's. And you know, when I heard that, I almost, you know, I lost my breath. I'm like, this just can't be. How could this be happening to me? And it all has to do with the brain injury. There's a direct correlation between a traumatic brain injury and Parkinson's and so there's a strong connection. And so I'm still suffering. As of last week, with all these issues, I had shoulder reconstruction. I had a huge spine surgery. I had my nose restructured. I lost 30% of my lung capacity. Sleep apnea. I have asthma. So, I'm still suffering all these years later with the after effects, like a lot of people. I have to say that I was one of the fortunate ones that actually survived it. by the grace of God for reasons I don't know. And people ask me that question all the time, why do you think you survived? And you know what, all through my life, I always had this weird premonition that God had a bigger mission for me. And I know that's weird, it's a topic of another discussion. But there's no way in the world I should have survived the collapse of the bow towers. But I'm here to tell the story and... Mostly what I want to do is I wanted to resurrect patriotism in this country. One of the things I felt really strongly about is inspiring people to become more patriotic and to be able to appreciate and, and to love what this country represents. But I'm honest with people at the same time, because America, one of the youngest countries in the world, uh, it's ironic that we set the standard for all the countries to measure themselves up against, right? And it's no secret that. There's very few countries in the world that have the standard of living that we have in the United States. And so it kind of gets me angry when people don't appreciate the United States of America. And listen, you know what? In the growing process of anything and anybody, mistakes are made, right? So America, the youngest country in the world, certainly in its growing process, had made some huge mistakes, which I think that they tried very hard to kind of make up for. There was a time when I was a kid, black people had to ride the back of the bus. Women couldn't serve in the military. Men couldn't marry men and women couldn't marry women. But I think that we've addressed those mistakes that we made and we tried to correct them. And now it's time, I think, to move on. So before, I'll just tell you this quick story. Before I was a firefighter, I did a stint as a New York State correction officer. I was actually a New York State Correction Officer in Maximum Security Jails in upstate New York. And I remember while I was working as a correction officer, once a month we would take certain inmates down for parole hearing and they would get paroled. They'd be set free, they would do their time. And of course they would never return, 85% do unfortunately, but the other 15% never return unless they committed another crime, they were exonerated at that point. But yet people keep re-inditing America over and over and over again from mistakes that have been made in the past. When are we going to set America free? And for people who don't believe that they live in the best country in the world, I got a little message for them. If we're not the best country, there's no other country that does it better. It's no secret that everybody wants to come here. Look who's running over the border right now. You know, nobody runs out of this country. People are running in, right? And for people who don't really believe what I have to say, I'll let them in on a little secret. Besides the USA, there's 197 other countries around the globe. And there's also 19,200 airports in the United States of America. Anybody listen to me, I'm going to tell you right now, if you're not happy living here, you have no problem finding a flight to take you to another country where you think you're going to find it better. And if you're foolish enough to take me up on the offer, you'd be smart enough to book that trip with a round-trip ticket, because as soon as you leave, you know damn well you're going to be right back here again. So... My inspiration and my quest is to make this country the reunited States of America, to travel the country and bring people together and to kind of solve all these little ridiculous differences that always keep us at each other's throats.
Sean Lukasik:
And what about you, you personally, has there been any change to the way that you live or experience your life day to day? I mean, you did you talked about a lot of physical elements as a result of being, you know, in that situation and experiencing everything from a loss of lung capacity to asthma to now Parkinson's and I'm very sorry to hear about that recent diagnosis. Has it given you any long term outlook on the way that you live your life sort of day to day?
Joe Torrillo:
You know what, Sean, I don't think I live my life any differently besides my medical condition. I don't live my life any differently than I did before,
Sean Lukasik:
Mm-hmm.
Joe Torrillo:
as I did the day before September 11. I was always somebody who was a very compassionate person, somebody who was sympathetic, had a lot of empathy for people. I think in this climate now, I try to do that even more. I want to. be able to spread my messages and get people to know the real Joe Torello and to talk about things that trouble them. And maybe I can get more people to be more empathetic towards other people. I think that's so important in this world. You know, there's so many people that I met. I have a lot of good friends. They have zero empathy for people, kind of self-centered, selfish people. And I had to prove a lot of things, you know. I met this woman in California about five years ago. I just met her over a cup of coffee with her husband. Somebody wanted me to meet them. They thought it would be nice for them to meet me. They're very nice people and I stood in touch with them. And I got a phone call from this woman. Maybe eight months later, we had stayed in touch and she gave me some bad news that her husband was diagnosed with stage four lung cancer. And it just out of the blue, right? Oh my God. So the world was turned upside down and she needed to get him to MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, Texas. She didn't know what she was gonna do. Once she got him down there, he was gonna have to be down there for two months. She didn't know, didn't have money, didn't know what to do. How was she gonna survive with him in the hospital? Where would she stay? And ironically, like two weeks before, I did a speaking gig down there. I donated my time to the Rotary Club and I called up this woman who I spoke for and I asked if she can, if there's anything that she can do to help me. She says, well, I have an extra condominium. She's right here in Houston, not too far from Anderson Medical Center. I'll put them up for free. I mean, what a great thing, right?
Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.
Joe Torrillo:
So I was able to hook these people up with an apartment down in Houston, Texas for the time that Phil was going through this experimental treatment. And it didn't really work out. It was a new experiment. It didn't work out, so she had to get back to California. And he ended up in a hospital up in Tewatky, California called the City of Hope. And he got a stem cell transplant from his sister. And I flew out there to visit him and to bring comfort. And in her house, she had a bad leak in the roof and it caused a lot of mold. And now when he was getting ready to go back home. to recuperate, she couldn't go back home because she had a leak in the roof and it caused mold and she couldn't replace the roof. And she reached out to family and friends and they said, oh, we'll pray for you. Just pray for me. I need shingles on my roof. And she told me the story. So I had just made about $9,000 and speaking, I sent her the check for $9,000. I put the roof on the house.
Sean Lukasik:
Mm.
Joe Torrillo:
I mean, was I in a position to do that when I got my own bills? Well, not really. But you know what? There was a time where you either... you have to put up what you really believe in.
Sean Lukasik:
Yeah.
Joe Torrillo:
And I don't know how many people would do that. I'm not trying to promote myself as a hero, but you know what? There comes a time in life where, you know, words are words and actions are actions. That's what I try to do.
Sean Lukasik:
Well, yeah.
Joe Torrillo:
I try...
Sean Lukasik:
And I think it's so powerful to hear that story because, um, I know people all around the world consider you a hero for what you did on September 11th, 2001. And to know what you consider as being a hero is, is continuing to live the life that you were living before that day and to continue living the life that you think is important and doing right by other people. And I think what a great lesson to hear from you about what it means to actually be a hero day in and day out. So yeah, I appreciate you sharing that.
Joe Torrillo:
It is important, you know, the thing is that I'm not knocking anybody, I'm not trying to put myself above anybody, I would never do that, but I really believe that there's enough of wealth in this country that nobody should be suffering. And of course, you know, that's always a contentious point because the people that have want to have it, the people that can't have it or don't have it, they're always looking for better ways. And I just really believe that. We need to be a much more of a generous society because there is enough of money, there's enough of wealth in this country that nobody really should be suffering. And it just aggravates me, it just confuses me as to why that somewhere within the political machine down in Congress, and I'm not going back, I'm not like, you know, attacking Democrats or Republicans, but you know, when we elect these people to represent us, it seems that They forget why they were elected and what can be really done. I don't know how we come up with all this money to support other countries. And meanwhile, they're worried about the social security system going broke or people not being able to pay their bills. And we have to have a congressional conference to up the minimum wage by 25%. I mean, by 25 cents. I mean, what's 25 cents an hour going to do to somebody? They're going to put a down payment on the Empire State Building? Like, what are
Sean Lukasik:
Right.
Joe Torrillo:
you kidding me?
Sean Lukasik:
Yeah. No, I totally agree. And it's it's, you know, who better to hear that from than someone like you who, you know, the story that you told the part that stands out to me is that you had a choice to drive to turn left over the bridge or to turn right and go up to the press conference. And that choice that you made in a span of 15 or 20 seconds has shaped everything that you've experienced for the rest of your life. And it's definitely had an impact on me and in this conversation, and, and hearing all the perspectives that you have and that you've shared as a result of that one decision to turn left. At the end of the bridge, there is we have a lot to learn from that. So I appreciate you sharing that with us.
Joe Torrillo:
You're welcome and I appreciate you giving me the opportunity. I
Sean Lukasik:
And
Joe Torrillo:
just
Sean Lukasik:
I
Joe Torrillo:
hope
Sean Lukasik:
have.
Joe Torrillo:
that my words really echo with people that are going to listen to this.
Sean Lukasik:
Oh, I think there's no doubt that they will. Um, and I, and I have to add, I don't normally have a mustache. I've been growing it out for, uh, for a party at the end of this summer. And, um, but I feel like, you know, you talked about Billy blazes and making sure that he has a mustache. My uncle who's a lifelong firefighter has a good thick mustache like you do. So, uh, I hope that you're proud of what I've got going on here.
Joe Torrillo:
I do, you know what, like three years ago, I was having a cup of coffee back in 2019 and sitting in my kitchen at home here in New Jersey and the phone rings and it's the Fisher Price Corporation. And they said, Hey, is this Joe Trilla? Yes it is. Hey, this is Mike Sullivan from the Fisher Price Corporation. Hey Mike, how's everything? Joe, we've been thinking a lot about you and wondering how's life, what are you up to? And of course I had a conversation like I'm having a conversation. with you today and they said, Joe, we want to run something by you. And I says, okay, Mike, what's that? They said, we're resurrecting the rescue hero line and our new rescue hero is going to be you, Joe Torello. So Fisher Price made the new rescue hero, Joe Torello. And I'm not bragging, but it's ironic to think that I'm the only person in the world who has a rescue hero made in his likeness and I didn't want them to do it. because 343 firefighters gave their lives that day along with 60 police officers. And I felt that I didn't want to steal the honor from those who were carried to their grave, but they insisted on doing it. And so I says to Mike, I said, listen, if you're going to make an action figure about Joe Torello, maybe it should be Al Capone or Tony Soprano. I mean, it can't be another Billy Blazers, but they did. So
Sean Lukasik:
Well,
Joe Torrillo:
in
Sean Lukasik:
I hope
Joe Torrillo:
fact,
Sean Lukasik:
that new action figure had a good thick mustache as well.
Joe Torrillo:
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
Sean Lukasik:
Oh, good. Well, Lieutenant Joe Tarrella, thanks so much for your time today on the Paizano's podcast.
Joe Torrillo:
Thank you, Sean, I appreciate it. Have a great day.
Sean Lukasik:
All right, so I'm just going to stop.