Software Social

Michelle and Colleen reunite for a wide-ranging season closer: Claude/Fable maxing anxiety, Colleen's very opinionated meal planning app, using Claude in the actual kitchen, Geocodio updates (Laracon US, ice cream truck, two open positions), and Colleen's big news. Plus: Matthias's coding agent Yak, the Yakkity Yak connection, secret RevOps plans, and an honest conversation about deliberate growth vs. quality of life.

Creators and Guests

Host

Colleen Schnettler

Co-Founder of HelloQuery, Founder of Simple File Upload

Host

Michele Hansen

Co-Founder of Geocodio & Author of Deploy Empathy

What is Software Social?

Two indie SaaS founders—one just getting off the ground, and one with an established profitable business—invite you to join their weekly chats.

Speaker: Hey, Colleen

Speaker 2: Good morning, Michelle

Speaker: How are you?

Speaker 2: I'm good.

We have a little bit, like, our camp
drop-off schedule in the morning in

the summer is a little bit crazy,
so been running around since 6:30

in the morning, but here I am.

Happy to be here.

Speaker: Yikes.

Yeah.

Yeah, 'cause you got three
kids, and they've probably

gotta go all over creation.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I, I think it's
because, like, one of them has

water polo at 6:45 in the morning.

Speaker: I know.

That's what water- That should be

Speaker 2: illegal I

Speaker: know Especially for children
who can't drive or bike- â¦ and,

like, get themselves to activities.

Oh,

Speaker 3: man.

So yeah, little, little bit of
running around, but all good.

Well,

Speaker: you're a saint- How are you?

â¦ for doing that.

Speaker 3: Oh, thank you.

Thank

Speaker: you.

Um, I'm good.

I'm still getting my bearings here.

As we discussed shortly before we
started recording- Yeah â¦ I could

not find the record button, so
we're off to a really good start.

So another great day of it being early
for you and late for me, um, and just-

It's been a busy week, by which I mean
Claude has been really busy this week.

Um, no, I've been working.

But, like, I, I feel like everybody I know
right now is in this, like, Fable stress.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: Like, where it was like,
"Oh my God, we gotta do everything

before Sunday, because that's
when, like, free Fable runs out."

And then on Sunday they were
like, "JK, you get another week."

And then it's like, rah.

And it's like this really weird anxiety.

Have we need, like, aâ¦

Maybe there's a word for this, maybe,
maybe there's a, somebody's invented a

German word for it, I don't know, of like
the stress of infinite possibilities- Mm.

Mm-hmm â¦ combined with the
anxiety of absolutely Fable maxing-

Mm-hmm â¦ while you have the chance.

And I have, like, eight different
terminal tabs open right now, and I

can never keep track of what is in
any of them, and then I also have

all of my chats going on, andâ¦

But I don't know, I feel like there's
just, like, this really weird stress.

I was saying to Matthias the other
day, it was like, I feel like we do

this because, you know, part of it why
is, like, we don't wanna have a boss,

and like, in this weird way it feels
like Anthropic is our boss right now.

And they're, like, dangling things
in front of us, and then be like,

"Oh, and then you have this deadline.

Just kidding, it's actually now."

And it's like, rah.

Um,

I don't know.

I don't know, how are you dealing with
Fable maxing week that is now two weeks?

Speaker 2: It's funny you say that,
because I feel like, I was thinking

yesterday, I feel like terminal
windows are the new, like, Chrome tabs.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker 2: Like, I don't wanna close 'em.

Yeah.

And I have, I've, I've, like, written
a hook, so whenever I close a terminal

window it's supposed to write to a file,
and like rename it, and save it, so I can

find it later, but it doesn't always work.

So I too have all of these

Speaker 3: terminal tabs open,
and I don't wanna close them, and,

um, yeah, it's, so it's crazy.

It's funny.

Speaker: Yeah.

But, um- I think I need to actually start
using some, like, terminal app that's

not the default one, because it'll just,
like, jump, and then I'm like, "But

which one of you needs my attention?

I don't

Speaker 3: know."

Like, who is it?

Who is it?

Speaker: One of my children needs me.

Which

Speaker 3: of my children needs

Speaker: me?

One of my little Claude children needs

Speaker 3: me.

One of my Claude children.

Speaker: And then I kill them.

No.

Speaker 3: Wow, that got dark.

Speaker: I know, but you have to.

You do have to.

You have to kill your Claude children,
otherwise you use too many tokens, like-

Speaker 2: You do â¦ oh, God.

Yes.

I amâ¦

Someone had he had actually looked
at, like, what it would've cost him

if he was paying for API credits.

I haven't done that yet, but man, if
Anthropic ever pulls the rug out from

under us on these $200 max plans, like-

Speaker: Which they will â¦ it's game

Speaker 2: over.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah, that's, that's been my week
basically, is just Fable, Fable maxing.

Speaker 2: Fable maxing.

Um- Are you building things?

Yeah.

Are you analyzing things?

What's your favorite use case so

Speaker: far?

So I'm anal- so I love-

Speaker 2: You'reâ¦

Speaker: Yeah â¦ I love analyzing.

So mostly- You love a good anal-
analysis â¦ mostly I am analyzing.

It, I mean, there's just so much data
analysis that I have wanted to do that

I haven't had the time for, because
even just one piece of it before would

have taken me a whole day or two days.

Like-

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

â¦ Speaker: and I know my way around Excel.

Like-

Speaker 2: Yeah

â¦ Speaker: I can do stuff, but it's
just so incredibly complicated.

And so I have just been having so much fun
building MetaBase dashboards and doing all

this analysis, and then having it write
reports for me on, on all of it, and like

I've only gone through part of them, but
then I start on another chain of thought

and be like, "Well, what about this?

What about that?"

And like just asking
all of these questions.

But I'm really excited 'cause I feel
like actually our analytics are in

such a good place, and I've been
getting answers to things that I've

wanted to know for a very long time.

But then honestly, Fable
is so good at research.

Like, so I've been doing a lot of- Mm-hmm

work on like competitor landing pages
and, and stuff like that, um, and getting

just a lot of things updated that,
you know, should be updated regularly.

It's justâ¦

It, it honestly is like light
years better than, than Opus.

Though there is still a lot
that their different models are

good for, and this was actually
something that I learned yesterday.

I don't know if, I don't know if you saw
it but you can basically ask Claude to

use the lowest possible model for a task.

So like if you're having it code something
or whatever, say, you know, "Use the

lowest possible model in a sub-agent,"
and like, "Don't use Fable for that."

And then so you can really
optimize your credits.

So I have started doing that now.

But yeah, that's, that's mostly
where I have been spending my time

is just having fun in data land.

Speaker 2: That's awesome.

I figured that's what you were
using it for, but I was wondering.

That's awesome.

Yeah, so- It, so thisâ¦

Oh, let me tell you a- Okay â¦ kind
of tell you a quick Fable story.

Okay.

So I've had Simple File Upload for six,
seven years now, and I ke- occasionally

I would run into these memory spikes.

And so whenever that happened, like
we all know I don't spend time on this

product, I would just bump up a Dino.

And it's like 100 bucks a Dino,
but again, it was like, "Okay,

this is not worth my time.

I'm just gonna bunk- bump up 100 bucks."

And so speaking of Fable maxing,
I s- I set Fable, and I have

tried to solve this problem like
intermittently over the years.

I've been like, I hooked up to New Relic.

I'm trying to trace through what's
causing these memory spikes.

Is it a customer?

Is it a method?

And never really figured it out.

I put Fable on it, and
Fable figured it out.

Speaker 3: And I was like, "Ah."

Speaker 2: So I just saved like
$2,400 a year because I can downgrade

my dinos from 250 to 50 bucks.

It was this, it was one ampersand, okay?

Let me just tell you what it was.

Because in Rails, I'm doing this
thing when, when someone deletes a

file, I recalculate their total file
storage so I can display it to them.

And I think the, I had like total file
storage equals image, and like, and

the ampersand in Rails, and that's
an enumerable method, which means it

downloads everything and then sums it.

And all, literally got rid of the
ampersand so it's pure SQL, and

now it just sums it, and like my
memory problems have gone away.

It's my most favorite like
Fable thing that I've done.

Speaker: Amazing.

Speaker 2: I know.

Speaker: Um, I guess actually that reminds
me of like what is Simple File Upload

revenue and expenses at these days?

Speaker 2: Well, the reason I-
I'm actually getting my life

together and trying to cut the
cost is maybe so I can sell it.

I mean, it's, it's not
nothing, but it's low.

It's dying veryâ¦

It's dying a slow Heroku death like
everything in Heroku because Heroku's

the main distribution channel.

So like 15K a year.

Speaker: That's not nothing.

Speaker 2: Right.

That's not nothing.

Yeah.

Right?

Like I did, so I had Fable do an analysis
on should I sell it or keep it going,

and Fable was like, "You could proâ¦"

Because it is slowly dying,
Fable was like, "Oh, you could

probably sell it for like 15K."

And I'm like, but it makes 15K a year,
so why, why would I, why would I do that?

And you basically do nothing.

So I think I'm justâ¦

I, no, I do nothing.

Uh- Yeah â¦ nothing with it.

Like I have to do nothing
on it, so, um, anyway, yeah.

Okay.

That's that update.

Okay.

So I

Speaker: feel like we need
to do some more updates.

We had planned to podcast in
June, and that did not happen.

Um- Correct Everything was just,
I, I guess I was really busy.

I was the problem because we launched
in the UK- No, well, the UK â¦ and

then we went to, uh, LaravLive UK.

Lar- And so I was there for, like, over
a week, like eight days or something,

and it was really, really awesome.

Um- That's great â¦ but also
really, really stressful.

And then we had family visiting and it
was just, like, it was just too much.

Speaker 6: But, but no, like, Lar-
Laravel Live UK was, was actually

really, really awesome, and it's, and
it's always awesome to, to see everyone.

And we are actually, speaking of
Laravel conferences and everything

we are going to Laracon US next week,
I guess, which is gonna be awesome.

We were there last year, and
we're not launching anything

ahead of this conference.

Um, so that, so that's, it's definitely
much less stressful going into it.

But we have some kind of some fun stuff
that we've been cooking up for it.

So last year we realized, uh, we're-
I was talking to some of the people

who were at Titan, which is like this,
this agency that's really big in the

Laravel community, and it turned out that
both of our companies, like we had all

stocked up our Airbnbs with ice cream.

And then on day one, just everybody just
like went back and crashed on the couch

and ate ice cream and played video games.

Um-

Speaker 7: That sounds amazing.

Speaker 6: Yeah, and it was
like super hot, so it was,

it was just really awesome.

And we were like- Yeah â¦ "You know what?

We should do like an ice cream social at

Speaker 7: Laracon."

Ooh.

Speaker 6: And so we like came up with
this idea basically that we're having

an ice cream truck come to Laracon.

And like the, you know, the, the deal
with it is that we have these like tickets

getting made up, and that if people
visit both of our booths and like get a

stamp, then this ice cream truck is gonna
show up on day two, and they basically

have like a ticket to get ice cream.

Speaker 7: That's amazing.

Speaker 6: And the, the part about it
that I'm the most excited about is, so

I grew up north of Boston, and Laracon
is in Boston, and one of my team members

found an ice cream truck that gets
their ice cream from the like homemade

dairy that I grew up going to, like in
the town next door to where I grew up.

It's basically my
hometown ice cream place.

Speaker 7: Oh, my goodness.

That's awesome.

I love that-

Speaker 6: Yeah

â¦ Speaker 7: so much for you.

Speaker 6: I'm so excited.

Um- Yeah â¦ it's like, it's
kind of a, it's, it's a very

different stunt at a conference.

Speaker 7: love it.

I think it's such a good idea.

I mean, people love food.

People l- we're, especially
developers, we love free food.

That's like how we became developers,
'cause in college we'd go to like the

meetups where they gave free pizza,
and we were like, "Oh, my gosh.

It's the most amazing thing ever."

I think this is such a good idea.

I love this for you.

Speaker 6: And then I'm also I don't know
if we talked about this, like that Iâ¦

So there's this group called
Larabelles, which is the, um, women

and non-binary group- Hmm, okay

of Laravel developers.

Speaker 7: Yeah.

Speaker 6: And I'm gonna be hosting
a meetup the day beforehand.

And I feel like we've kinda talked
about this a little bit, but so

we're, so we're gonna host a meetup,
again with Titan, on, on day zero.

And the whole point of it Is, is so
that people, like, basically make

friends with people- Have a friend

like, make a buddy- I love it â¦ so
that if it's one of the breaks or,

you know, you need to find people
to have dinner with, like you've

already met a couple of people.

Like, I think we talked about this
a few months ago, and you felt very

passionately about, about what had
been done in the Rails community.

Speaker 7: I, okay, so it's, yeah- Like

I feel like I was, I had some very
strong thoughts last time- Very

strong thoughts â¦ you brought this
up, and I don't remember what they

were, 'cause this sounds amazing.

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Uh.

Well, I think you, I think you really
loved the, in the Rails community, there

was, like, an officially sponsored thing
where- 'Cause we do it officially, yes

they would pay your whole way
to go, there was a mentor.

Yes, that's right.

Like, it was this whole big
program, which is awesome.

But as, you know, like, individual
sponsors, that's not really

the, you know, the kinda thing.

And I mean, and the other, like, but
it's, I mean, it's, and I think we're

also kinda make it basically to, to
tell people, like, you know, if you're

at one of the breaks or you don't know
who to go to dinner with or whatever,

just, like, come by one of our booths.

Like, you'll have met-

Speaker 7: Yeah

â¦ Speaker 6: the people there.

You can always tag
along, you know, with us.

Um- I

Speaker 7: love that you're doing that,
'cause the hardest thing about going to a

conference is when you don't know anybody.

It's the worst.

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Speaker 7: So I think that's amazing.

Speaker 6: I think especially for,
you know, people who aren't men.

Like, it certainly is, like there's
some- Yeah â¦ so many introverted men,

don't get me wrong, especially engineers.

That is the heart and soul of my book
audience, so I definitely see you.

I wrote a whole book for you.

But I think for, you know, for, for
women and, and non-binary people, it's

a whole nother level of questioning your
belonging and finding your people and

feeling safe and all of that at a, at, at
a conference that, that goes well beyond

your normal level of social comfort.

And so it's gonna be a super busy week,
but it's gonna be a super fun week, and

like, we don't have anything we're crazy
stressed about launching in advance,

which is gonna be really awesome.

And the other thing about the LayerBalls
event, too, is that we're actually

hiring two more people right now.

We haven't really
announced it, but we are.

We're gonna hire a, a support engineer
as well as another full stack engineer.

And so hopefully- Amazing â¦ it'll
be a good recruiting event.

Like, we've, you know, I held one of
these meetups at Laracon EU a couple

months ago, ended up being really good.

So yeah, it's been a co- a stressful
couple of months, but, um, there's,

there's fun stuff on the horizon at least.

Speaker 7: I love it.

Speaker: But we had set a goal
for you to build a fun project.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker: Um, did you build a fun project?

Speaker 2: I did.

Speaker: What did you build?

Speaker 2: I built aâ¦

This is gonna sound so, like
everyone does this, but I built a

very opinionated meal planning app
And it's not on the App Store yet.

It still just lives locally on my devices.

But basically, I'm gonna- I am gonna
publish it, and it's gonna be called

A Very Opinionated Meal Planning App.

And so I love it â¦ I have
that's what I've built.

Because you know what Iâ¦

I hate the meal planning.

I hate it.

Like, and I am a mealâ¦

You know, I gotta feed all these people.

I am a meal planner.

I am a Costco shopper.

I am those things.

And, like, every week it's like, "Oh my
God, what are we gonna have for dinner?"

So what we do in our house, or what
I have established in our house, is

Monday is always a Crockpot meal,
Tuesday is always tacos, Wednesday's

always something new, Thursday is always
pasta, and Friday is always pizza.

So even, even those, like,
fill-in-the-blank days, you

still have to figure those out.

So, um, it's my very
opinionated meal planning app.

And I pay for something called
Plan to Eat that I've used for,

like, 12 years, and it's terrible.

So I'm sure they don't listen
to our podcast, but, like, do

not recommend their software.

It's so bad.

But I've stayed with it because
I've been on it for 12 years, so

it has all of my favorite recipes.

So I exported all 3,000
recipes from Plan to Eat.

I went through, I built myself a
dashboard so I could actually go through

and be like, "Yes, I actually make this
one," or, "No, I don't make this one."

So I got it down to, like, the
150 recipes I actually make.

I imported those into my database.

And yeah, and I made myself a very
opinionated meal planning app.

Speaker: And does itâ¦

Like, is there anythingâ¦

You know, y- you mentioned
that you shop at Costco.

Like, does it check the Costco website
for, you know, what's on sale or

Speaker 2: what the

Speaker: specials are- What's available

this week?

Or, like, check the
local grocery store, uh-

Speaker 2: It doesn't, but it
splits â¦ flyer or whatever?

It splits the list.

And so here's the other thing.

Every single me- I have tried so many
meal planning apps in my days, right?

And I just, none of them
work for my, my use case.

So what I need you to know, you being
my meal planning app, if I have chicken

on the list, I get chicken at Costco.

If I have arugula on the list,
I get that at the grocery store.

So I actually gave it, like, all
of these like, specific rules about

which thing I buy at which place.

So when I tell it to make the, a
list, it's like, oh, cherry tomatoes

are a Costco thing, but, you know,
pears are a grocery store thing.

Speaker: I love that Thank you
Because that is a problem like

that I have had too, and I remember
there was, um, I was trying to do

more meal planning like years ago.

I mean, so we have like a little,
just like a little paper calendar that

we keep on the wall, and we haven't
been doing it lately, the summertime,

and there's only three of us.

But like, you know, we'll at least
like on Saturday or Sunday, we

at least try to sit down and like
do that during the school year.

But I remember I was using
recipes from a cookbook.

Oh, do you know Nom Nom Paleo?

Have you ever heard of that?

Yeah.

Speaker 2: I

Speaker: do.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: So she- I've seen the recipes
â¦ had this cookbook, the author of it,

that was all about like, it was, I don't
know, was it Ready To Go or whatever.

It w- it was all about like
30-minute meals, basically.

And there was meal plans in the back
of it, and I remember like, I, there

was one week I was like, "All right.

We're doing the Nom Nom
Paleo meals every night."

And I remember getting super frustrated
with it because I would buy all the

food on Sunday as recommended in
the meal plan, but then by Thursday,

like some of the stuff had gone bad.

And I remember like sending an
email to the author being like,

"Hey so I had this problem.

Like, is there any way that you
could, you know, put in like a

Wednesday grocery list forâ¦"

You know, 'cause there's always
something you've forgotten anyway-

Speaker 2: Yes

â¦ Speaker: that you need to
run to the grocery store for.

And I don't, I don't remember what
the reply was or if I got one.

But like, but it was like so annoying.

I was like- Mm-hmm â¦ I wish that
had been split up so that like I

didn't buy bok choy on Sunday and
then it was slimy by the time I

went- Yeah â¦ to use it on Friday.

Like- Right Yes.

I, I think we all have these opinions.

Like, if you've had to do meal planning,
you, you have opinions about this

and sort of very real constraints.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and I
realize it's kind of fun.

I do wanna put it in the
App Store eventually.

But it's kind of fun because,
like, I do have so many opinions.

Like, like 30-minute meals,
that's a perfect example.

For a while, I was doing those
Rachael Ray 30-minute meal- meals.

Those, those were an
hour and a half meals.

Speaker: There was no world- Yeah,
30-minute meals are a lie â¦ like,

Speaker 2: when you show up and everything
is chopped- Like, even warming up

Speaker: leftovers-

Speaker 2: Yeah.

â¦ Speaker: like, is a-

Speaker 2: A lie

â¦ Speaker: like, that is 30 minutes.

Like-

Speaker 2: So, like- Yes, exact-
so I have all these, like, things.

It was so funny.

The, the funniest part about,
like, actually building this is

I have all of these very strong
opinions about meal planning that

I didn't even know that I had.

You know what I mean?

If I have to chop five
different vegetables, like, no.

Like, it's out.

It's gotta be prepped ahead of time.

Just funny things like that.

Like, there's this one recipe that I used
to really like, and it's like it used

like 15 dishes 'cause it's, like, fi-
you know, all these different pieces.

And I'm like, "So that's
not a weeknight meal."

So it's funny how I've, like, mentallyâ¦

You know, it's like this mental
categorization of meal planning and, and

food and what we're gonna eat, and it
was fun to put that all out in my app

and be, like, super opinionated about it.

Speaker: So is it helping you?

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

Have you been using it?

Speaker: Totally.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: So it's still local,
like I said, on my devices, which

is why I wanna put it on my phone.

But it's great 'cause I come in, and
it's still, I'm still a work in progress.

Like, I'm still working on
the grocery list, like the

Costco versus non-Costco stuff.

But I put it on I come in and
I tell it to plan my meals, and

then it makes me a shopping list.

And so the next step is to order
the Amazon groceries for me.

That, that's my next step is I
want it to make the shopping list,

fill it out on Amazon so I don't
even have to go to Amazon and order

the groceries, and, and do that.

That's step two.

But it- Because you could
like- â¦ it's helping me.

I love it.

Yeah.

Speaker: You could take a picture of your
Costco receipt, and then it could just

Speaker 2: scan it for- Ooh, that's
a great idea â¦ the food items.

Yes.

I'm doing that this week.

That is a great idea.

Yeah.

Like, this is the stuff I get at Costco.

Yes, I love that.

And the other thing I haven't
done yet is I also wanna integrate

Instagram 'cause I'm onâ¦

It, when I'm scrolling Instagram, I
always save recipes and then I lose

them So I wanna one-click, like add
this to my meal planning thingy.

Speaker: Colleen, you lied to me.

Speaker 2: About what?

Speaker: You told me your Instagram
feed was all golden retrievers

doing cute things, and now
you're telling me- I mean, it is

there's also recipes there.

Speaker 3: That is true.

I did add food back in.

Speaker: Yeah, no, that would beâ¦

Yeah, I, I feel like I
always save things, um- And

Speaker 3: you lose them

â¦ Speaker: and neverâ¦

Yeah, except for the thing that, like,
I actually made, and then it becomes

amazing, and then I make it all the time.

Yeah.

Which is, which is my not pizza
per- pizza burrata thing that

I found from a Facebook ad.

Ooh,

Speaker 2: that sounds amazing.

Speaker: Yeah.

It's like when you want pizza,
but it's too hot, you know, and

you don't want anything warm.

Yeah.

I'll send it to you.

You can put it in your app.

Send it to

Speaker 2: me.

I'll put it

Speaker: in my app.

Um- Yeah â¦ it's so involved, though.

Like, it involves- Uh-oh â¦ roasting
garlic for, like, at least an hour

beforehand, and, like, it's- Oh,

Speaker 2: wow.

Speaker: Yeah.

That's,

Speaker 2: that's

Speaker: involved.

It's, it's a commitment,
but it's also really good.

Anyway, we'll take it.

Speaker 2: Anyway.

Speaker: I feel like you got
your joie de p- development back.

You know-

Speaker 2: Yeah, the only- â¦ your, your

Speaker: joy of, of making things, which

Speaker 2: is a goal â¦ I do too.

I think the only thing
is I wanna push itâ¦

Like, it's at that point now where
it's 80% done, and when you get

to, like, 80% done, there's thisâ¦

you stop moving forward as much.

You're like, "Oh, it's fine," but
I really wanna push it through and

get it on my phone, 'cause now I
have to sign on to my computer to

do the mail planning, make itâ¦

excuse me, to do the meal
planning, and I don't love that.

Like, I just wanna make sure I
push it all the way to the, the

finish line and get it on my phone.

So that's my goal.

Speaker: Well, so if you make it into an
app, then, like, doesn't, doesn't your

oldest have a phone, if I remember that

Speaker 2: correctly?

He does, yes.

Speaker: And so you could, like,
eventually there could be a request

functionality in there, right?

Be like, you know, somebody's
like, "I would really lo- love to

have, like- Yeah, that'd be cool

something with steak" in a few weeks.

And it'll be like, "Great."

You know, and then the app
monitors if, you know, steaks

come on sale at the grocery store
or a Costco or whatever, right?

And then it gets added in, or-

Speaker 3: That would be really cool

â¦ Speaker: maybe it sends push notifications
to other people in the family, like,

that they should cook things, you know?

Yeah.

Hypothetically, you know?

Speaker 2: Hypothetically.

Speaker: Hypothetically.

Speaker 2: That'd be amazing.

Go chop the onions.

I'm working.

Speaker: Um, so do you have
Claude integrated into it?

Like-

Speaker 2: Not yet.

Not right now, no.

Okay.

So I used Claude to build it,
obviously but it doesn't chat yet.

I think I do wanna add that, where
it's like, "Hey," well, I don't know.

I don't know.

I haven't figured that part out yet.

Like, I'm trying to get the basics first,
like the shopping list is the real next

big thing, then ordering the groceries is
the next thing, getting it on my iPhone.

Those are kinda the goals right now.

Speaker: Do you use Claude
when you're cooking?

Speaker 2: No, I do not.

Oh,

Speaker: okay.

So I use it all the time.

Like-

Speaker 2: Ooh, tell me

â¦ Speaker: and so for me, it's a lot
of, So if it's a basic recipe and

I need it converted, like, so a big
frustration I have that I almost wanted

to make something about a couple of
years ago, is recipe conversions.

And- Hmm â¦ so, like, an American recipe
will call for two sticks of butter.

Okay, so first I have to convert
two sticks of butter to grams

and figure out that what is.

And but, like, really what I want is,
it's just, you know, that recipe is

using the standard American amount of
something, and what I would really love,

instead of knowing that it's, you know,
I need 314 grams of butter or whatever,

I want it to just use a 200-gram block.

Yeah.

So, like, I'll take a recipe that
I already trust and then ask it,

can you convert it to grams using
a specific ingredient as the, the

linchpin, basically, of it, and
pivot everything based on that.

Or, you know, for, for
just adapting things.

Like, there was a one point when I had
to make an utterly massive amount of

Italian meringue buttercream frosting
and I think I needed like 1,000 grams

of butter for it, and so it did all of
the math for me and figured that out.

Oh, God.

Did I tell you about this?

Uh, there was, like, a month ago
when I really wanted brownies, and

so I found a recipe on Instagram,
so that was a whole 'nother, that's

the whole 'nother challenge to it.

But I found the recipe, but then
I had to convert it to grams,

but then it turned out I didn't
have several of the ingredients.

This, this was a hot mess, okay?

It called for using cocoa powder, and
after I'd had everything out and already

started, I realized that I actually
did not have enough cocoa powder.

And so I was like, "Hmm," "Can I useâ¦"

Like, I was, like, looking
around in the kitchen.

I was like, "Can I use hot chocolate mix?"

And so, like, I'm asking Claude.

I'm like, you know, "Can
I use hot chocolate mix?"

Like, you know, it
already has sugar in it.

Like, here's the nutrition facts.

Figure out how much sugar is in the hotâ¦

Like, what percentage of it is sugar
versus what percentage is actually

cocoa, and then how do I adjust the
sugar Uh, down in order to, like, adapt

it for this and, like, can I increase
the amount of, you know, bar chocolate

that I'm, that I'm putting in it?

But then I completely screwed it
up because I put in the flour,

I â¦ the amount of flour, I mixed
that up with the amount of sugar.

Again, using a recipe off
Instagram doesn't always go great.

And my in-laws were over and I was
making it, 'cause, like, Matthias was

on the grill and I was handling dessert.

And I was so low confidence in these
brownies that they were like, "Oh,

we'll stick around for the brownies.

You know, I'm sure
they'll come out great."

Oh, my God.

And I was like, "No.

Go home."

"They're gonna be terrible."

Like, no.

"They're not gonna be edible.

Just leave," basically.

And they're like, "I'm sure they're fine."

And I'm like, "No, seriously,
they're not up to my standard.

I'm not gonna serve them to people."

And then they came- That's funny

out of the oven and
they were actually fine.

They were totally fine.

Somehow.

They were fine.

Even though I, like, put in
twice the amount of flour.

Anyway, that was not Claude's
fault, that was entirely my fault.

But yeah, I use it all, like,
all the time, but I was, I was

wondering if you'd integrated it.

By the way, this is now a cooking podcast.

Um-

Speaker 3: Right,

Speaker: right.

Because like, I'll be making something
and where I tend to use Claude is,

this recipe is calling for X, what
can I sub if I don't have that?

Speaker 2: Mm.

Speaker: And especially for like
a lot of, like, basic ingredients,

that's something you can do, you know?

Um, I don't know.

I was just curious

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that makes sense.

I mean-

Speaker: Yeah

â¦ Speaker 2: why don't have the
conversion problems really so much.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: Right?

Yeah.

So I just- You don't need to convert
sticks of butter to grams of butter

â¦ I don't need to convert, yeah.

Yeah,

Speaker: yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Sticks of butter to
what do, what do you do?

Grams?

Do they, they sell them
in like block, like grams?

So you said

Speaker: 200 grams?

Yeah, it's a 100 gram like block, and
so this was my- Oh â¦ my idea I had

a while ago was, so I had a problem
where, where I can also find recipes

in Danish, but if it's for an American
or a British dish you know, if it's

like a, like a shortbread or, you know,
chocolate chip cookies or whatever, like

I tend to not trust the Danish recipes.

I haven't had, always had good experiences
with them coming out tasting correct.

Okay.

Um, and a lot of them are under-salted,
and I don't understand, and I have

noticed this in things I have eaten here.

Anyway so I prefer to use an American
or a British recipe when I'm cooking.

'Cause oftentimes I'll just like
type it in and because I'm in Europe,

it'll just give me a British one.

But then that means
like converting things.

But like the really the, the frustrating
bit is I just want it to use like

the standard measurement for things.

So like a 200 gram block of butter and-

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker: I get that â¦ assume that
I have vanilla sugar rather than you

have vanilla extract liquid, right?

And like-

â¦ And especially, and like, and I know
how to make that conversion, but like

if, you know, I'm giving a recipe to
our daughter to make, which she likes

to bake now, like, you know, I have to
like put in the recipe like, oh, that

you actually, you need to add in the
vanilla sugar with the flour, not with

the eggs, like as this recipe tells you.

Like, so there's justâ¦

And then also I have all of
my own adjustments to recipe.

You said you're very, you have
your very opinionated recipe app.

Like- Yeah â¦ I am a very opinionated
baker- Baker â¦ and I cannot

stick to a recipe to save my life.

Um, and I always have adjustments that
need to be made, whether it's like, you

know, little bit more salt and less sugar,
which you can do for most baking recipes,

or like adding a little bit of cinnamon
or like whatever, like whatever it is,

like I always have something that I feel
very strongly about needs to be changed

even if it's a recipe that I address.

Anyway.

I could talk about this for a while.

So do we want to talk about
the news that you have,

Speaker 2: Yes.

Okay, let's do it.

So- I mean,

Speaker: just say as much
as you can basically.

I'm sh-

Speaker 2: I'm trying
not to say- Yeah, yeah.

I have, um, accepted a full-time position.

Speaker: Super exciting.

I'm super happy for you.

Speaker 2: Thank you.

Thank you.

I am very excited.

Speaker: Do we need to tell people why
I'm not, like, hiring you full time?

Is thatâ¦

I feel like this is probably-
I kind of feel like we

Speaker 2: should-

Speaker: Yeah â¦ because people are
gonna be like- I feel like we should.

Yeah, people are gonna be like, "Why?"

Like, 'cause it has been hon- it
has been so, it has been so nice

having you on our team and, um-

Speaker 2: Yeah.

And I think I've said this a couple-
Yeah â¦ episodes before, and I am

not just saying this, but, like, it
has been amazing working for Geocodio.

Speaker: Yeah.

By the way after that- Mm-hmm
â¦ recommendation, we are hiring-

They're hiring â¦ um, an engineer.

Yeah, we're hiring a s- we're gonna
hire a you know, a full stack engineer

and then as well as a support engineer.

Um- Oh, do.

You guys are- â¦ two positions are
up Geocodio/careers on our website.

Okay, I mean, maybe we
have to edit this later.

I don't know.

I feel like the reason is basically
that you live on this gorgeous,

amazing island in California, and
your goal is to be able to buy a super

normal house and not a mansion, and
where you live, that is $2 million.

And you basically need to work for a
company that gives you, like, lottery

ticket stock options or stock, and while
we can certainly pay your base salary,

And I can't give you the lottery ticket.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like it was that
and a combination of the time zones.

And

Speaker: the

Speaker 2: time zones.

Speaker: think the time zones-
I think that was- We had talked

Speaker 2: about that.

The time zones-

Speaker: That was, I think

Speaker 2: that

was

Speaker: kind of between, like, what
your goals are, like financially-

â¦ But then also the nine-hour time
difference is, is really tough.

The standard Danish working
hours are 8:00 to 4:00.

Yeah.

Which meant that, you know, the
engineering kickoff every two

weeks was, I think we had to move
it to 4:00, which was likeâ¦

Or 4:30, which was, like,
really early for you.

But then basically outside of normal
working hours- It's 6:30 AM â¦ for

our engineer who is in Denmark.

And for us- Yeah â¦ like, you
know, we're at, like, we're fine.

But, like, you know, we wanna
respect people's normal working

hours and stuff like that.

And it was just, like,
it was just reallyâ¦

We totally made it work, but it was-

And there were times actually when it
worked really, really great because,

like, when, you know, our engineers
in Europe were done for the day, like,

they had their poll requests out.

And, like, you could
review them overnight.

Yeah.

And then it was ready the next day.

But, like, for stuff that required
collaboration, it was really tough.

And, and I think that's why with the,
the engineer positions we're hiring

for, both of them have to be East Coast.

Yeah.

We know that we need, we need
US people for those positions.

Like, we, we for the full stack
engineer positions, like, we

plan to hire one person in Europe
and one person in the US anyway.

Yeah.

And we've already hired the
Europe side position, Liam.

He's amazing.

Yay.

He's amazing.

Um,

and but we're like, they just
have to be on the East Coast.

Yeah.

It just, it just doesn't work.

, Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, I've really
I, I really, really have loved working for

you, and I had big secret plans that maybe
someday we'll still get to implement.

Speaker: What were the big secret plans?

Speaker 2: If I tell you, they
won't be a secret anymore.

Speaker: I know, but now you're
going off somewhere else.

Okay.

And so they can just,
we can just park them.

Okay.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Oh, so actually was, like, actually-
Big secret plans â¦ big secret plans.

Okay.

You know this already, but I
didn't know this until I was

building out those integrations.

Your competitors are, like,
70 to $100 million companies.

You knew that.

Yeah, they're

Speaker: huge.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: We

Speaker: are-

Speaker 2: Your- â¦ competing against

Speaker: giants

â¦ Speaker 2: yeah, but your ability
to grow should you want to isâ¦

you have, infinite growth potential
at that company should you want

to, like, turn on a growth machine

Speaker: Okay.

You're

Speaker 2: like,

Speaker: okay.

Continue.

Speaker 2: Secret plan was work
with you guys for a while, get

the lay of the land, and then you
would put me in charge of rev ops.

We'd make our own little rev ops
growth department, and we would go

all in to see what we could do with
AI and growth and see if we could like

triple, quadruple the size of Geocodio

I can see you hate my secret plan.

I can

Speaker: see- I don't hate
your, I don't hate your secret

plan- By your face â¦ at all.

I'm, I'm thinking.

That is, that is a, that is
a thinking on camera face.

Speaker 2: Thinking, thinking

Speaker: in the middle
of- Um, I don't know.

I don't know.

I never know what my face
is doing also, like, so-

Speaker 2: Your

Speaker: face looks

Speaker 2: very judgey right now.

That's what your face- I

Speaker: know

â¦ Speaker 2: is doing.

Speaker: I know.

My daughter said
something to me yesterday.

She was like sh- like she just
said something random and, and

I like was making a face at her
apparently, and she was like, "What?"

Yeah.

And I was like, "Oh, I'm s- sorry.

My stomach is hurting.

Like I don't know what my face is doing."

Like, I'm sorry.

That was not for you.

Sorry, my face.

My stomach is fine right now, by the way.

Um- Okay, good Just in
case you were wondering.

So it was a judgey

Speaker 3: face.

It wa- it was 'cause of me.

Speaker: No, it wasn't judgey.

No, I just have resting,
um, judgey face apparently.

Resting judgey face.

Um, so I, yeah, I think it's, it's
always a thing of like we could do that.

Mm-hmm.

But what is the quality of life
that that means for everybody?

Speaker 2: Wait.

Pause.

Quality of life.

Okay, now that I have worked
with you guys- â¦ I really,

really see how much you work.

Like I knew you worked a lot, but I did
not appreciate it until I worked with you.

You guys work all the time.

Matthias works like 15 hours a day.

Like what is this man doing?

Yeah.

It'll be 3:00 PM here, and he'll
be like, "Oh, I approved that PR."

And I'm like, "Dude,

Speaker: what?"

Well, okay, so he's a night person.

Like-

Speaker 2: Okay.

Okay â¦ I mean,

Speaker: he does work too much, and we
talk about this, and we do too much work-

Mm â¦ on the weekends, like especially
when there's a Fable deadline on a Sunday.

Speaker 3: Yeah,

Speaker: right.

Um- You only

Speaker 3: have a couple days

â¦ Speaker: not remotely bitter about that.

But like-

Ah, he's a night owl, and
I'm a morning- Mm â¦ person.

And so, like, his brain is not
really working until 11:00.

Like, even if he sits down at his desk
at 9:00 he is just not awake until 11:00.

Mm-hmm.

And then his brain is on fire from,
like, 9:00 to, like, midnight.

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker: clearly.

And so we always have this problem where,
like, you know, I will be, like, super

tired at, like, 10:00, 10:30, and he's,
like, really chatty and wants to tell me-

Really excited â¦ everything, and, like,
has all these ideas, and is so excited.

And I'm, like, so tired, and I'm like, "I
can barely keep my eyes open right now.

Like, can we please talk about work,
like, tomorrow during work hours?"

But then I will be up often at
6:00 or 7:00, or if I'm, like,

lucky lately, I sleep until 8:00.

Which I don't wanna rub it
in- â¦ because you're up at, you

know, 3:45 AM to get to- â¦ lacrosse,
water polo practice, whatever it is.

Anyway, I will be, like, you know,
getting ready in the morning, and

I'll be like, "Oh, and I had this idea
about that, that, that, and this, this.

And, like, we should do this."

And he's completely groggy and-
Mm â¦ like, not processing any of it.

And yeah, work definitely does
bleed into life, but it alwaysâ¦

I don't know, it always has.

Speaker 2: But, okay- Um- â¦ I don't
know that it's bad â¦ but, like- I didn't

mean, I didn't mean that it was bad.

I just meant like- Well,
no, I think it is bad though

I think you guys-

Speaker: Like-

Speaker 2: But you guys loveâ¦

It's, it's so, it's so ingrained
in, like, your life, right?

'Cause your work and
your life are symbiotic?

A river?

I don't know.

There's some, some cool-
Combined â¦ analogy here.

Yeah.

Combined is a good word.

Interwoven.

Co-mingled.

That's a better word.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: So I'm not saying it's bad.

I'm just saying I noticed it that it isâ¦

You guys work a lot.

Speaker: And we can't work more, right?

Like, so, you know, this is what Iâ¦

You know, I've beenâ¦

One of my analysis projects this week
that I'm still working on is, okay, like,

if we were gonna set, you know, like,
metric-based goals that are more specific

w- you know, what would be reasonable?

Like, what are things
we have control over?

But, like, our general revenue
goal is 15 to 20% growth per year.

Speaker 2: Per year.

Yeah.

Speaker: Which I feel
like is very reasonable.

And actually- Yeah â¦ you know,
this past six months compared to the

previous six months, we were at 30%.

And I'm like, that's actually too high.

Like, that's not good.

Mm.

This means that if we're at that point,
the level of, you know, operational

complexity that that implies-

â¦ Um, not only from an engineering
perspective, but from a product

perspective, customer support,
finance, like, all of it-

Speaker 2: Yeah

â¦ Speaker: like, that's too much.

And I'm not gonna necessarily,
you know, turn a spigot off per

se, but, like, we're not going
for 50, 100, 1000% growth a year.

I'm intentionally going for 15 to
20% because- Ah, yeah, I mean, I

guess I already feel like we work
a lot, and I don't know where

we would find the time to work-

Speaker 2: Yeah

â¦ Speaker: even more.

I mean, at the same time,
like, you know, I mean, this is

more of, like, a summer thing.

I definitely couldn't do this in
the spring when everything was

crazy, but, like, I kinda spent
half the day at the gym today.

Like- That's awesome â¦ I didn't
get to my desk until 12:00.

But then I was also, like, talking
to Claude and having Claude busy

on stuff while I was at the gym.

So again, these things
all, all blend together.

And I'm, like, thinking about work
while I'm there, and then I get to

my desk and I'm super productive.

But, like I love the vision.

I think, I mean, I think
that growth is there, right?

Yeah.

And if it's like if we ever decided
to sell the company, like that's the

story, is that this is, you know, there
is a lot of growth potential here.

And my secret idea for you actually that
I was gonna propose was if you were gonna

continue down the, you know, getting,
getting something going route- Mm-hmm

um, is that whatever you
launch, it should be an API.

Because with the explosion of AI, you
know, I feel like everybody always

talks about being picks and shovels
as a bootstrapper- Mm-hmm â¦ rather

than- Yeah â¦ the gold rush, right?

The gold rush right now
is being an AI company.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker: Picks and shovels is data, right?

'Cause the, the, the thing
that we still, the advantage

we still have, you know, that-

Speaker 2: Yes

â¦ Speaker: companies, like
software, you know, sort ofâ¦

I don't know how you describe
this, but like companies that make

interfaces for, for doing things.

Do you know what I mean?

Like if it's likeâ¦

I'm, I'm, I'm explaining this poorly,
but like, basically like traditional SaaS

that's like, I don't know, um, software
to like manage HR or whatever, right?

Mm-hmm.

Like now it's like, oh, I could
just vibe code that, right?

And of course there's a lot more
complexity there, and there's

maintenance, and there's, th- there's
a whole lot of stuff that people

aren't considering about with that.

But the thing, the advantage that
we have as a data provider is that

the results are deterministic.

And with AI, it still
is not deterministic.

And so you still need- Mm-hmm â¦ the
data and the APIs flowing into something

where you know that you're gonna get
the same result from those, whether

that is, you know, geolocation software
like us, or you know, if you're doing,

I don't know, if you're doing cold email
campaigns, which I feel like I'm receiving

so much more cold email now after- Yeah

like all of this.

But like you still need an API
feeding into your CRM with the emails

of people who work at companies
that are in your target, right?

Like AI cannot come up with those emails.

And you need to know that it's going
to be reliable every single time.

And so this was going to be my pitch
to you, is I think being a data SaaS or

an API, like API first, not as- Mm-hmm

a SaaS that has an API,
is The picks and shovels.

That, that is being Levi
Strauss in the gold rush.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Okay.

So I totally agree.

And I tell people this.

Like, now, again, I've seen what you
guys do more closely, and I think you

have the perfect business model because,
because you own the data, right?

So everyone out there spinning upâ¦

And this is, like, people, like, I,
I ship little things, and people are

like, "You're gonna prototype that?"

And I'm like, "No," because I think
you have to own the data layer.

And what you guys do, owning the
data, you are AI-proof, 'cause

it's deterministic, as you said.

Speaker: I don't know if we're proof.

I'm not, I'm not gonna say we're proof.

Like, and we're using a lot of open data.

Okay.

So, like, it, like, there are, you know,

Speaker 2: like- But it's a mountain.

It's different than if I have a,
you know, a go-to-market, send

automated cold email based on
social selling signals SAS, right?

Someone could literally build
that in two days these days.

So you're, you have theâ¦

I think owning the data is

Speaker: the key.

There is a, there is a level
of defensibility there,

whether it, it's not like- Yes.

It is not the level of defensibility
that, you know, Microsoft has.

Like, if you think about, you
know, Slack versus Teams, right?

Like-

Speaker 2: Yeah

â¦ Speaker: Teams is a much uglier app that's
harder to use, and every single time

a customer sends me a Teams invite, I,
like, have to remind myself that I work in

software and know how to use technology.

Um- Like,

" Speaker 3: But why?

Why?"

Speaker: But the reason why Teams'
growth exploded, like, if you've ever

seen this chart, you just have to Google
it- Okay â¦ is because Microsoft had

this huge moat in terms of all of the
customers that they already had that

could very easily integrate it, which
Slack did not have that distribution.

Got it.

And so, and I say that to mean that, I
know I could ramble about moats forever.

But there, it, it, I, I wouldn't call it a
moat per se, but it is, it is defensible.

It is not 100% defensible, but it is
more defensible if we're doing sort of

comparisons than, yeah, to what, you know,
like a, like an HR management app, right?

That's just sort of, or something-
Right â¦ you know, so you said that can

be vibe- Yes â¦ coded in two days, right?

Like- Like,

Speaker 2: I just, when I think about,
like, my next business, I wanna own theâ¦

Well, I have two things, okay?

It's own the data, or it has to be
something, , I really, really care about,

that I care passionately about, 'cause
I am deep in my soul mission-driven.

Speaker: And I think you never got there.

And I think that's the
thing that I- I never

Speaker 2: got

Speaker: there.

Speaker 2: 100% never got there.

You are correct.

Speaker: This is the irony of talking
about you doing, like, something

with data is you were on the, like-

You were doing all of this, like,
SQL related stuff that was not you,

and then you were kinda staying
in, like, the data analysis sort of

space, and I guess we're in the data
analysis space as well, sort of.

But like, or, you know,
but like, you never found a

thing that really lit you up.

I think what you, you know, when you
were considering all of these things you

know, I remember talking about it with
you, and I certainly had the bias of,

you know, when I got into this, I was
not passionate about geographic data.

And, like, I had come across the
problem, but it, like, wasn't really

something I had thought too much about.

What I really loved was just working
with Matthias, and then we, And that was,

like, a big friction we had in our lives
when we didn't work together is, like,

just, you know, wishing that we did.

And, and I also just really love our,
our customers and the people we solve it

for, and I just find it so interesting.

And- And I have found things
that I really love about it.

And it's just likeâ¦

And I'm like, "This is so exciting."

Like, I get to see- Such a data

Speaker 2: nerd

â¦ Speaker: how likeâ¦

But like for me it's like, it's
like, it kind of is like, you

know, like the policy bits.

Like, I was like, "Oh, this is amazing."

Like, I get to see how
the policy is implemented.

Like, this is so cool, and then
I can get to help people to like,

you know, uh, comply with this.

Like, this is awesome.

And also, you know, if it's a data com-
like if it's a compliance need, it means

the government is literally telling
them they have to do it every year.

So I love that as a business
person 'cause it means they

have to use something for it.

And I can make it easier.

Or you know, our congressional district
data and all that kind of stuff.

But I was probably like, yeah,
like work with your friends.

Like, that's, that's so important.

Like, and, and I just I, I, and I
think, you know, this is something

I think about sometimes and, um-

And some- something I, I always have
in the back of my mind, just like

having this podcast or, you know, when
I was writing my book too, is like

I am limited to my own experience.

Um, and, and I think, you know, with my
book, I like really made sure to make

it be like I'm only gonna talk about the
stuff that I really know my stuff on, and

like keep it to that as much as I can.

And, and try to n- to, to be
very clear, like with, withâ¦

I guess I just always felt a tension with
this podcast, especially like when we

did it before, like of, of like I, I can,
I can only speak to my own experience.

Like I have not, I, I don't have
everybody else's experience.

I haven't studied every way
to make a business, right?

Like I only know- Right â¦ what
has worked for me,

, I mean, I just, I want you to achieve
all of your dreams and goals in life.

And- Thank you â¦ I just, like w- we
don't have any plans to go public ever.

You know, okay, and maybe at some point
we decide to be a 700 bajillion dollar

company, and you know, we do wanna go
that route, and we do wanna go public.

But like that's not in our, that's
not in our plans- Yeah â¦ right now.

That's like-

Speaker 2: Yeah

â¦ Speaker: the crazy plans we had Claude
come up with this week with Fable, just

for the fun of it, was like, "Oh, like
what if we scaled the team to 30 people?"

And we like both- Whoa â¦ read like what
that plan looked like, and we were like,

"No, that sounds like way too much."

Nope.

Like-

Speaker 2: Yeah

â¦ Speaker: and it's like
somebody could do that.

Like- Yeah â¦ totally possible
with the company, but we're

choosing not to do that, right?

But like, I just, I want you to have
everything you want, and I knew that I-

Speaker 2: Thank you

â¦ Speaker: like can't give you that.

Thank

Speaker 2: you.

Speaker: I appreciate that â¦ I
cannot give you, you know, you know,

potentially, I don't know, you know, what-
whatever it ends up working out to be.

Like, you know, working for a company
with, with stock and everything.

Like, I mean, I know people
working for big companies winding

up with 5, 600K a year, right?

Like, I just, we can't do that.

And I want you to achieve your dreams
of buying a very normal- Buying a

house â¦ 1500 square foot- I mean, yeah

1950s ranch in San Diego for
a- â¦ you know, casual $5 million.

Like- Seriously â¦ I want you to
be able to achieve your dreams.

Insane.

Speaker 2: To achieve my dreams
of these overpriced houses.

Oh my gosh.

Um, no, I really- Yeah â¦ I
really appreciate that.

It has been It, yeah, I
really appreciate that.

It has been such a joy and an
honor to work with you guys,

and- And I totally respect that.

Like, you are trying to be deliberate and
smart and build your busine- â¦ That's

the whole point of this kind of business
is you can build the business to fit

the life that you wanna lead, and right?

Like, there's nothing greater than that.

Speaker: And the life I wanna lead
apparently is, you know, it being 8:15

on a Sunday night and sitting down
with my book, you know, for 15 minutes

after finally closing my laptop.

And then my husband coming over and
being like, "So I just had Claude do this

thing, and I'm really excited about it."

And I'm like, "I am-" Okay.

"â¦ I literally just stopped thinking
about work 15 minutes ago, and

I wanna read my book-" It's

Speaker 2: soâ¦

Okay

"â¦ Speaker: about medieval England."

And like-

Speaker 2: Okay, so my backup backup, can
I tell you my backup backup secret plan?

No, but I love it.

Since we're not doing the secret plans.

The backup backup backup
plan- Oh, you have

Speaker: one?

Okay, backupâ¦

Like, how many secret plans do you have?

Speaker 2: always have a lot of secret

Speaker: plans.

Like, I feel like you have a, your
head is just, like, a closet, like,

full of, You're just, we're just, like,
opening it up, and there's all of these-

you know, I'm, I'm picturing, like,
these, like, all of these, like,

parchment documents just, like, tumbling
out- â¦ with all of your, likeâ¦

It's like a secret treasure chest kind
of, like, full of, full of secret plans.

But there's also, like, of course,
there's, like, a cat that, you know,

like, comes out of the closet too.

Like, it's just, it's all the- Oh,
my goodness â¦ all the secret plans,

but they would be very organized.

Um- They wouldn't fall out of the closet.

They would be-

Speaker 2: Okay

â¦ Speaker: super hyper organized.

Speaker 2: So, and this would be,
this would be another plug if you're

thinking about applying to Geocodio.

I have worked with 50 plus engineers,
I mean, even more than that, right?

I've been an engineer for a long
time, and I have never worked

with anyone like Matthias before.

So my secret secret plan is to take one of
his side projects and make it a business.

I mean, I'm gonna ask you first, but,
like, people are sleeping on Yak.

I'm like, how does, how is this notâ¦

Like, this is literally Devin but better.

Like, they could be a whole-

Speaker: I think he did
release it, didn't he?

Speaker 2: Yeah, but youâ¦

I mean, no one knows.

Yeah.

Literally no one knows about it.

Anyway, I'm just saying.

Well, neither one of

Speaker: us is a marketing
person, so it'd be a problem.

Uh, I'm just saying, secret secret
plan, check again back in 10 years.

I mean, I guess you kind of
are in a marketing thing, so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right?

Like, I was like, at one point I was
just gonna, like, DM you guys and be

like, "Hey, so can I just offer this as

Speaker 2: a hosted solution and go make
my own SaaS out of your side project?"

So check back in 10 years.

I might be coming for all of
Matthias' side projects to see which

ones you guys don't want anymore.

Speaker: It is great though.

Like the other day I was like, oh, we
need to update all of our transactional

emails to match our new branding, and
we need all the, you know, the buttons

need, style needs to be updated,
and the font needs to be updated.

And so I just created a linear
issue, described all of that,

and then I assigned it to Yak,
and then it went off and did it.

Speaker 2: And I feel like
asterisk, Yak is the autonomous

coding agent Matthias built for

Speaker: Geocodio.

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker: we should tell people what it is.

Speaker 2: But it's alsoâ¦

Yeah,

Speaker: we should tell people what it is.

I mean, it's basically what it is.

That's what it is.

Like, I, I ha- it, it doesâ¦

I guess the idea is that
it's It was something about

skinning the yak, which is like-

Speaker 2: It's yak shaving

â¦ Speaker: yak sha- There we go.

Sorry.

You s- you know how experienced
I am- Skinning the yak â¦ with,

with yak farming here.

Speaker 3: my gosh.

Umâ¦

Do you skinâ¦

That sounded real-

Speaker: oh my gosh.

I just think of it like a sheep.

I don't know, like I guess you don't
skin them, you, you shear them?

Anyway, um, I also- Anyway â¦ don't
know things about sheep farming.

Um- Can we name this
episode Skinning the Yak?

I don't know what we're
gonna name it at this point.

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3: So good.

Speaker: God, this is what happens
to our brains on Fablemaxing week.

Um- I know,

Speaker 3: right?

Speaker: I guess it, it's small,
annoying tasks basically, is what it'sâ¦

It, like, does the chores- Yeah,
yeah â¦ basically, in the code base.

Yeah.

And actually, so when he named it Yak,
it didn't tell me about this whole-

Speaker 2: Yak shaving thing

Speaker: yak shaving thing, right?

I didn't know about that.

Um- Yeah â¦ my first thought
instead was the song Yakkity

Yak, which was one- Mm-hmm â¦ of
my favorite songs as a child.

Which if you don't know the song
Yakkity Yak- Yes â¦ you should go

listen to it, 'cause it is a classic
from the '50s, and five-year-old

Michelle absolutely loved '50s music.

'50s music and swing music, okay?

I was a weird child.

Aww.

Spent so much time clearing out the living
room furniture, putting on my swing music

CD, and then making up floor routines.

Wow.

Speaker 3: Cool.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah, that was me as a five-year-old.

So Yakkity Yak is a
song about doing chores.

Like-

Speaker 2: Hmm

â¦ Speaker: like do you know
the song Yakkity Yak?

Speaker 2: Iâ¦

It, like, kinda sounds familiar.

Speaker: It's literally a song about
how, like, a 1950s teenager needs to,

you know, bring in the dog, put out
the cat, and, you know, take out the

trash, and, like, all this kind of
stuff before they can go out, you know,

dancing to the Sock Hop or whatever.

But, like, that's the whole
song is about doing chores.

And I was like- Oh

"Oh, it's Yakkity Yak."

He had never heard the song
before, and I was like-

Speaker 2: Oh, wow

â¦ " Speaker: Oh my God, we are
listening to this song," 'cause I

am gonna think about it every time.

And also the thing about, like,
you know, you assign it a chore

and, like, you know, youâ¦

Not here thankfully, but you know, like,
you assign someone something not fun to

do, like, they might grumble about it.

And, like, literally in the song it
says, "Yakkity yak, don't talk back."

Well, the, the chatbot, it never
complains about having to do-

Right â¦ some annoying task of
updating 29 transactional emails.

Yeah, I assign stuff
to it all the time, um-

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

â¦ Speaker: where I'm like, "Oh, like, do
we mention this on the website somewhere?

Like, go find all the places
it, you know, does that."

Yeah, it's a great little thing.

Yeah, I remember we tried Devin
like a year and a half ago, and-

It just wasn't quite what we needed.

And yeah, he ended up building that, and
I guess he builds all sorts of stuff.

Like he built Chief and though,
though he's kind of like- Mm-hmm

down on Chief.

I use Chief all

Speaker 2: the time.

Speaker: Oh, you still use it?

He's kind of down on it.

I still use it.

He's like, "Oh, it's not
really useful anymore."

Like, you know.

Speaker 2: Oh, I still u- I
don't wanna say all the time,

but I use it for my recipe app.

Oh, cool.

So like I still use it.

Yeah.

Speaker: Oh, that would make him so happy.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Um- I forgot that it was called Chief,
so I- it's funny, so when I was trying

to find it, I googled Chef Mini Monkey,
and like all these little monkeys popped

up, like eating food and like chef hats.

So it was kind of cute.

Speaker: Yeah, he does have
a unique GitHub username.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: Minicode Monkey.

If anyone wants to check out Yack or
Chief this is now this podcast has

gone from a cooking podcast- Cooking

to, um, advertising my
husband's side projects podcast.

So thank you for hanging
around at this point.

Speaker 3: Oh.

Speaker: Yeah.

So I guess that's what's, that's
what's, what's going on there.

You've done incredible work
for us the past six months.

It has been- Thank

Speaker 3: you, babe

â¦ Speaker: amazing.

Real, like really, really amazing.

And, and maybe at some point I'm
gonna be like, "Let's do it, Colleen.

Let's grow 700% a year."

Take over the world.

Like come be my RevOps person.

Speaker 2: That's like when your
kids are in college, I feel like.

That's like 10 years

Speaker: Yeah.

That is like- Maybe

Speaker 2: it's like 10 years

â¦ Speaker: that is the- Yeah â¦ either,
yeah, either we decide to like go big or,

you know, I'm like, "I just wanna spend
six months out of the year in Italy."

You know?

Like, and- Also a good strat.

Right?

That's also a

Speaker 2: good strategy.

You know,

Speaker: I don't, I, but I don't, I
don't know I'm gonna, what I'm gonna want

in 10 years, but I know that I'm happy
with what I'm doing right now, you know?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

That's good.

That's a good place to be

â¦ Speaker: and that things
are, things are good.

And it's good to be recording now
rather than a month ago, because

I don't think I would've been
all happy and cheery a month ago.

I was very stressed.

Speaker 2: You

Speaker: were very stressed.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: I mean, you all,
I, it was a cra- at work.

I can't speak to your
personal life as much.

We didn't catch up as much.

But work was insane.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah.

No, it really was.

You guys were, yeah.

Um, it w- and, and that's what I
was saying about like I want 15 to

20% growth, which is very reasonable
for a mature software company.

Yeah.

Um, it, I think growing, you
know, a lot more than that is

just, is just really stressful.

And havingâ¦

Well, the other problem was
Laracon-driven development.

Like we have promised- Yeah â¦ that
like we are not doing that- That

Speaker 2: was not

â¦ Speaker: again after the next time,
'cause we're launching in Australia

and we're sponsoring Laracon Australia.

After

Speaker 2: next time we're not doing it

Speaker: again.

Um, so after the next time we are
not doing any more Laracon-driven

development because having that real
deadline was just, was so stressful.

It just added- Yeah â¦ and we're not
used to having that kind of stress on it.

And even with the, like the website
relaunch, like it got to a point where

all this other stuff was getting held up
because of branches with the, the website

relaunch stuff, and like things were
getting behind, and it was just like, it

was like, "We have to set a deadline, and
it has to be done," and it was like, "Ah."

Yeah.

So it was really stressful this spring
actually, and it's finally lifted and-

And now I can, you know, take a random
weekday morning to just go to the gym and

talk to Claude and not show up until noon,
which is, which is what I want, right?

Like- Yeah â¦ you know.

Yes

â¦ Speaker 2: yeah.

Yeah, I think that's what you want.

If we were going for the

Speaker: $700 billion route, we,
I wouldn't be able to do that.

Speaker 2: Well, and you
don't need $700 billion.

That's the other thing, right?

Like- Yeah â¦ so on my deep, on
my deep explorat- deep exploration,

that's like another thing to look at
is like how much money do you need?

Like, what, you know, uh, I think, I
think that's something to think about too.

Like, you don't need $700 billion.

So prioritizing a quality of life
seems like a good spot to be in.

Speaker: Yeah.

Though apparently my quality
of life is still working a lot.

Speaker 2: Um- But you lo- Okay.

So- Yeah â¦ I mean, I know
we're, like, going on and on and

on here, but you love to work.

Yeah.

I do.

You love it.

Like, if you didn't have work, you'd
be climbing the walls or, like, I don't

know, maybe you'd be- Oh, literally

looking at an-

Speaker: I mean, no, top of- Yeah â¦ I,
I would take up rock climbing.

I've considered that.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah.

Literally rock climbing

Speaker: wall.

I would love it.

Yeah.

Um.

I would be literally climbing walls.

Okay.

No, I mean, that's the thing, right,
is like people ask me about, you know,

selling or whatever, and I'm like, yeah,
but then I would just need to go get

another job, or I would need to- Right

like make another job.

And, like, as we have discussed,
starting a company is hard.

Like-

Speaker 2: Yeah

â¦ Speaker: and I am realistic
about my abilities.

I'm like, "I have done that once.

I got lucky once."

Like, I don't know if I'm
gonna get lucky again.

Like- Mm-hmm â¦ and maybe I just
work until I'm ready to not work

and just, you know, I don't know,
write books and invest and stuff.

But that's still like w- working.

That's like you know- Yeah, yeah
â¦ and Matthias- It's still another

form â¦ will never not be working.

Like-

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Right

â¦ Speaker: you know, like we've, of
course we've talked about the future

and how, you know, that's kind of
how I see things is that when we're

not doing this, whenever that is,
like I would spend my time investing.

And we already know that he
would not be managing it with me.

'Cause he's like, "You know, I'll
come in as an advisor when needed,

but like I wanna be building stuff."

He's like- Cool â¦ "That's
where my heart is."

And I'm like, "That's great."

Like-

Speaker 2: Yeah

Speaker: Yeah.

Um-

Speaker 2: Yeah

â¦ Speaker: I don't know, but
that's still work, right?

Like, I, like- Still work, yes â¦ I don't
think, even if in my head- Yes â¦ I'm

like, "Oh, wouldn't it be so nice just to,
you know, sit on a pool chair in Italy-

Nope â¦ six months out of the year?"

I'm like-

Speaker 2: You'd be so bored.

Speaker: I would be so bored.

You'd be so bored.

Like, I w- like three days in,
no, four days, I think I would

give it, I think three days I
would be like, "This is amazing."

And then by day four I'm like,
"Am I really gonna do this

for the next six months?"

Like-

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Yeah, no.

Speaker: Like, I think I
would be- That would not,

Speaker 3: that would not

Speaker: be a thing â¦ like, you know,
like my, one of my aunts is an attorney,

and she retired a couple years ago.

And, you know, she, she came
to visit a couple weeks ago.

And she was like telling me all
about this case that she was

working on and all this stuff.

And I was like, "Wait, didn't you retire?"

Like- â¦ "Hold on a minute."

Like, I'm like, I'm so, 'cause,
'cause my brain was still like

just mush from work and everything.

And I was like, "I
thought you were retired."

She was like, "Yeah, I got bored.

So now I just went back on
my own terms, you know?"

"And I work from home, and I
don't have to go in to," you know.

I told her I'm never going into
court, you know, into court anymore.

And I'm, and it's like, she's
like, "I work full time.

And I told them I was going
to Europe for a few weeks."

And I was like-

Speaker 2: Cool

â¦ " Speaker: That's great.

Like, you get to work part-time and take
vacation, and you have money to do that?"

But yeah, I don't think I
could ever not, not work.

So I guess this is, for the podcast,
this ends this season, we will

Speaker 2: call it.

This season.

Yeah.

This season.

Let's say that.

Let's say it ends this season.

Yes.

And we'll see, we'll
see if it can come back.

Speaker: You and I will
still talk to each other.

Everyone should not- Yeah â¦ fear that.

I guess it is, it is you know,
good luck and good night for now.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker: But we will keep talking.

We-

Speaker 2: Yes, we will keep talking.

Thank you people who are still here,
uh, who still like to listen to us.

Um, we appreciate you and this, this
whole podcast has been such a positive

impact on my career and my life.

Speaker: Same.

Same.

Speaker 2: Good.

Good.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker 2: All right.

Speaker: Bye.

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