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Thoughts and ideas on education, culture, psychology, social science and more from our academics, students, alumni and wider community to create lasting and evolving change. Podcasts brought to you by UCL Institute of Education (IOE), the world's leading centre for education and social science research, courses and teaching, and a faculty of University College London (UCL).
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You're listening to IOE Insights, the UCL Institute of Education podcast at University College London.
Louise:Welcome back Tooba, for this fifth episode. It's currently 35 degrees in London. We are both melting and sweating. We met today in the student center because there is AC and we really need it.
Tooba:That's true, but we need to ignore the heat and focus on today's topic. In this episode, we will talk about our current stage of research, which is writing, the emotional roller coaster which comes with the journey of research, imposter syndrome and what we're going to do after the PhD.
Louise:So, Tooba, we are now both in the writing stage. Can you tell me a bit about this stage? Is it easier or harder than the previous one, like the data collection, data analysis or the upgrade, for example? And how do you maintain motivation for the entire Ph. We are now at the end of the third year, beginning of the fourth, so I think it's the important question.
Tooba:That's true. I mean, I feel like every stage brings its own challenges. And once I was there when I have not been through that stage, I thought that's the most hardest part. But now I look back and I was like, no, this one is whichever the current stage is, and the previous one was easy. But I feel like I won't say that writing or this stage is the most difficult thing.
Tooba:I don't want to unacknowledge all the difficulties I faced earlier. They're also, like, you know, worth mentioning that every stage is difficult. That's true. But it gets easier, I think, by time you your mental state, mental capacity to deal with the problems gets better and better. So I think your mental capacity gets better and better by time.
Tooba:You get more you can give more reassurance to even yourself that it's gonna be fine. We're gonna find a way. For me, it took me one year almost after my data collection to finally figure out how I'm gonna write and do the analysis. It I I won't say the the amount of data I have, which is quite big. So the timing is not, like, too much for that.
Tooba:But at the same times, I do feel like I could have done it a bit quicker if I didn't have the challenges that I wore I was facing. But, you know, it's been fine. And how do I maintain the motivation? You know, I was just thinking that I'm such a perfectionist. If I start something, I have to end it.
Tooba:That's how I maintain motivation for cooking a recipe, to going to a tour, to going for groceries, and to do a PhD. It's the same thing. I started this, I have to finish it in order to satisfy my own self because I don't like working things. And also, I really love my research project. I have great passion for the topic I am working on.
Tooba:And I always say that I see my research career as a continuation from one project that led and gave birth to the other project. And I like this curiosity in the journey. It's like finding stepping stone. And there is not really a destination at the end of this journey. It's just a continuation of maybe another research project in the future.
Tooba:So I'm really looking forward to it.
Louise:You said that you took a lot of time to analyse your data. So what was the process of analysing data? And then how did you start writing?
Tooba:Well, the process of analysing data is still continuing because once you start data analysis and writing, I don't think it ever stops until you write your last draft of your thesis. Then that's when the analysis really ends. Yes, so it has been quite a rocky journey for me to come to finally able to write. I have like a lot of challenges due to my medical condition. First, thought I will be able to transcribe the huge amount of data.
Tooba:I think it's almost eighteen to twenty one hours of audio recording I have that I will able to do it. And that too in a language that is not right now available in any of the, you know, apps or softwares which can help you with transcription.
Louise:Which is?
Tooba:Urdu, mostly. I was, yeah, I took a lot of time, like three, four, five months just to figure out and finally able to admit that I need a human assistance and help from someone else. I don't like getting help from anyone, But I finally admit that after a lot of trial and error. And once I have the transcription, it actually has been such an easy thing. And meanwhile, I was getting this help.
Tooba:I kept on doing what I call audio analysis. Just, you know, the data listening to the recordings in my headphone all the time and trying to think of what themes can come up. And I think I have came up with many drafts of the themes and structure for my findings. Right now, it's the fourth or fifth one, which I'm like, okay, this this is better. And every time it does get better.
Tooba:Every time of course. I come up with good themes or I organize them in a better way. Now I finally feel like I can tell a story, I can write, and I have started writing. I feel more confident about my data. So this has been a very good, worthwhile journey, even though it started with a lot of challenges.
Tooba:How about you?
Louise:So after my data collection, I focused on my data analysis. I did some of my data analysis during my data collection. Then I did a second row of data analysis, so it was thematic analysis after my data collection. Just transcribing all the interviews was so long, to be honest. Even if I used some AI to help me, I did had to, I mean, you have to really listen to everything and correct everything because it's never going to be 100% accurate.
Louise:Even if you use some tools, you're going to have to be sure that everything is good. So it took me a long time and then I had to code everything. I used NVivo, but I also did some manual coding for some drawings, some mathematics as well. So it took actually a long time. And I did like you, I tried to do like an overview of my thesis, like chapter and some part.
Louise:I also did different versions of it. But then it took me so long to just start writing. You know, I was lost. Where should I begin? Yeah, I was completely lost.
Louise:So my supervisor gave me good advice. He told me, just, it doesn't matter where you begin actually, just take a piece of the data you collected that you like, that you enjoy, that you have something to say about and start writing from there. And then you can just build around it. So I did that, which led me to write an entire chapter. So that was a good idea.
Louise:And I started to write a second chapter of results. But then I realized that these results use a lot of notion and concepts I didn't explore that much in my literature review. So I went back to my literature review to just read more articles that can help me to understand my data as well. And then I went back to my methodology as well to write a bit more about the methodology I just modified and ended after my data collection. So I think writing is a very messy process where you go back and forth between different parts and sometimes it can feel very messy and yeah, can actually lose your mind doing this.
Louise:And you also question your writing because academic writing is a specific type of writing. Yes. You know that, you had the same challenges. So yeah, you ask yourself and English is not our first language as well. So sometimes you're just like, which concept do I want to use?
Louise:I don't know. But our supervisor, I think, have a degree to help us correct this thing. And regarding to maintain my motivation, one of the classes I follow used the concept of roller coaster to define the PhD, and I think that's a very good definition, every good image to illustrate the PhD, because there is a lot of up
Tooba:and down.
Louise:You start data collection, you're so happy, then you face challenges during data collection, and you're like, should I stop this? And like really during my data collection, was like, am I going to actually be able to finish collecting my data collection? Then you finish your data collection, you're super happy because you achieved something, you're done with the part of your PEG, then you're excited, you start your writing, you're like, yeah, this is the last part of my PhD writing, and then you just see the amount of work you have to do, and you're like, oh no, maybe I should give up, am I going to actually yeah, when I start writing and I saw the amount of pages I had to write, I was like, am I actually able to write that much? Am I smart enough? But at the end, you stop writing and you're like, okay, one day I was writing, I wrote an entire section and I was like, okay, actually, maybe I can do it.
Louise:You know what? Maybe I can finish my PhD. So I think I don't know how to maintain motivation during your PhD. I think you have to have very
Tooba:It's not a linear process.
Louise:No, it's not a linear process. And I think the most important stuff is having supporting people, supervisors, supporting friends, supporting family, because sometimes you're going to want to quit, but don't quit. Just try. Sometimes you're going to think you have the right trust the process, and I think you have the right to feel unmotivated sometimes and to feel like you want to quit. I think it's not a PhD if you don't want to quit at some point.
Louise:So yeah, okay Tuba, as usual, no surprise, a lot of colors. Green and blue is the color for today.
Tooba:I thought today is less colors.
Louise:Oh, wow. I think it's just bright colors.
Tooba:Yeah, that's true. Well, usually we draw something that is related to the topics we're discussing. I'm not so sure right now if it's going to be related to. I was just feeling a lot of heat and it's very hot, so I'm trying to draw a scene where the weather is not hot.
Louise:That makes sense. I understand. I totally understand that.
Tooba:How about you? I see, again, organized.
Louise:Yeah, actually. There's two parts. In the middle, we have someone that is confused. And on the left, we have a bubble with my writing journey. So a lot of writing, a pen, computer because I mostly write on computer, and my wonderful glasses because I cannot be I wasn't a computer without them.
Louise:And then on the right is more like what's going to happen after my PhD, a lot of question mark.
Tooba:So, Louise, we were just talking about how we feel emotionally challenged sometimes. We have to trust the process, and we doubt ourselves if we're going to do it or not, or should we quit or not. I think a lot has to do with the imposter syndrome that nearly everyone feels in their journey of doing research and whatever else they are doing. How about you?
Tooba:Have you ever felt that, and do you ever feel like you belong where you are right now?
Louise:Well, this is a huge question. That sounds like a therapy session, for sure. I mean, we are just finishing a third year and entering a fourth year. And yes, sometimes I'm still asking myself, am I smart enough to do a PhD? Am I actually belonging in academia?
Louise:Yeah, I mean, we have this thing that I don't know for you, but when I tell my family or some friend I'm doing a PhD, just imagine you meet a friend you haven't seen in a long time and you say, Oh, I'm doing a PhD. And they look at you amazed and they're like, You must be so smart. And then yourself, you're just thinking, Absolutely not. I'm not even sure what I'm doing right now. And after three years, when I'm writing, I'm still like, What am I doing? I'm not that sure. I think every PhD has been in Posten syndrome, and I think PhD is a process. You are still learning, so you have to be kind with yourself. You are still learning, so of course you're going to do a mistake. Even when I'm doing conference, I went to Rome a couple of weeks ago to present my PhD.
Louise:Yeah, that was fancy, but that was a big, big conference. And that was my first international conference with media experts, like people that actually work in, you know, think tank and some international organizations. And I was like, I'm 28 and I'm just a third year PhD. Who am I to do a lecture to these people about the topic?
Louise:So yeah, think being in a PhD actually involves imposter syndrome, but we do belong here and we do work hard, so we need to overcome this syndrome. What about you two? Do you feel the same? I'm pretty
Tooba:sure you do. I do. Something that you said towards the end is like, we have to reassure ourselves that we do belong here. You know, I have this thing, I always say this to myself whenever I feel like I am in a room or in a place or in a conference or whatever that is, and I feel a bit disconnected, I feel like out of space, and I feel like I shouldn't be here. I just tell myself, I should be here.
Tooba:Why must even if I feel not perfect also, not perfect people like me should be in the room because we all are equal humans. We have the right. So I just tell that to myself. Even in all my imperfectionism, I have the right to be in that place, to say the wrong things, to do the errors, to do the mistakes, to make a fun of myself when I say something very abrupt, which might not land very well. But I have the right to do all these things.
Tooba:So I think what I want to say is the key is really to be comfortable with not being comfortable.
Louise:That's true. I mean, some of my friends, my brother, did say that as well sometimes. He humble me a lot. When I do something stupid at home, like, I don't know, I mess up the laundry, you know, something very practical. He looked at me and was like, How can you be a PhD?
Louise:And I think people forgot that PhD is not being smart in every area of this life. It's very smart in a very, very tiny, tiny area. True. On that note, if I ever hear someone say, Oh,
Tooba:you must be very smart, you're doing a PhD, and I say, This is the stupidest thing I'm doing actually.
Louise:Okay, Tooba, so we both answered the last phase of our PhD, more or less, writing. What will you do after your PhD? Such a heavy question. Yeah, I know, but my mom and dad asked me this question regularly, so let me ask you this question, please.
Tooba:Nearly every other day I face this question from someone and that someone is mostly my mother.
Louise:Yeah, I say mom and dad, but it can be friends, it can be relatives, whoever. What I'm going
Tooba:to do after the PhD? What I did before, after everything I finished, I try my best, I apply onto jobs, opportunities, and I do my best. I think of a research project, I apply for that, and if I get, I get. Otherwise, I keep trying. That's what I'm going to do after my PhD.
Louise:But do you see yourself staying in academia, teaching, researching, or going in private sector?
Tooba:100% yes, I can see myself in academia, teaching. That was always the plan, to be honest. I started my career as a school teacher as well, but I think I just progressed towards research. And now I want to continue doing both things, research and teaching, and in between doing other things like podcasts and painting. Of course.
Tooba:So that's that's what it's gonna be. Like, I don't think of, future too much. I don't make big plans. I am much more of a believer of that I'm gonna find out when I reach there. So yeah.
Tooba:And it it's okay to be to have uncertainty in life. I think I know it it it it is very overwhelming, and it really freaks everyone out, but that's fine. How about you? I don't think you also have a solid plan, but
Louise:No, I mean, yeah, when someone asks me the question, I freak out a lot of anxiety because, well, you cannot be sure. Like job market is not that good right now, to be honest, not just in London, but everywhere. There's a lot more people in academia as well, so more competition, that's for sure. And you don't know, it depends on opportunity you're going to meet along the road. So I always say that depends on opportunity when someone asks me, when my dad asks me, what are you going to do after your PhD?
Louise:But most people are scared for us, not scared. Concerned, would Concerned, yeah. They're more concerned for us, like what's going to happen after the PhD. But I do have a plan because I'm organized. Okay, it's not a plan, it's more like what can I do?
Louise:I would like to teach and to do some research as well. I'm considering PhD and postdoc, I'm considering postdoc.
Tooba:Another PhD, I'm like wow.
Louise:No.
Tooba:I never do that.
Louise:No, another like some postdoc or fellowship. If there's an opportunity in another university for example in another country that would be nice as well just to have some more experience in research and I don't know to know another university but if there is a place in UCL to stay as a teacher as a researcher, of course, I would like to stay as well.
Tooba:That's an important thing to say. You would love to stay at UCL.
Louise:Yeah, maybe consider that, of course. I'm also open to different possibilities and opportunities. But I also want to kind of work in the private sector, like for Think Tank, for example, like media, we have a lot of private organizations in Europe, so I would love to work for them as well. So yeah, there is different options. Like, just trying to be open on different options and opportunities.
Louise:I think that's the most important, Being open on different options and opportunities. And of course, I would love to still host the podcast with you on research. I think research is not open that much to large audience, like large public. It's about time we'll change that. Enough of gatekeeping.
Louise:Let's open everything. So yeah, too bad. You see yourself staying in London, living in London, staying in New Zealand, for example.
Tooba:I do see myself because it's very familiar and I love new things and exposures and experiments, but I also like to stay in the place that I know. In our field, opportunities are very rare to find, especially as an international student. You know, it's very competitive and there's not much funding. So we have to I don't feel like I have the full freedom to choose where I'm going to stay for the future. Should I go back home?
Tooba:Should I work here? What's going to happen? But as you said, my approach and mindset is to stay open. I know what I want to do. That's research.
Tooba:I know which area I want to do research. So place is, I don't think I have the full freedom to choose that. I'm pretty open wherever I find the right opportunity. Yeah, but if I find it here, I would love to stay. What about you?
Louise:I mean, same, same as you. I know that I want to continue research in academia, but still open to other opportunities. I would love to stay in London, in UCL because having we know the professor, we have a friend, it's close to my family as well in France. And there's a good university in London as well, like UCL. I mean, even in UK, you also have Oxford, Cambridge, and they have good Institute of Education as well.
Louise:Yeah, I would love to stay here because it's comfortable and our life is here for now. But I'm very open to going to another university. I was looking at good department in other university and major education. They have good department in China or in Australia, for example, in Canada as well. So I'm just open or even going back to European Union.
Louise:I mean, I'm not sure where I'm going go either. I'm just going to follow the opportunity and let's see where destiny and opportunity are going to lead me. Perfect. So, Zeinab, can we speak about enjoying now? I finished mine, yours is still a bit in process.
Louise:Almost finished. Almost I can see a very cute tiny house and a lot of balloon. It looked like the movie Up. You know the movie Up. I was just going to ask you, can you guess the reference?
Louise:Yes, it's Up.
Tooba:You know how I said at the start that I don't know, but I just want to make something that reminds me of good weather. Yeah. So as I just painted blue skies with some clouds, because for me that's a perfect weather, a bit windy, a bit sunshine, a bit of everything. But as we were talking about all these things and we're talking more about towards the end of the PhD and what's gonna happen afterwards, I I watched this movie up and I think a lot of us love this movie. Yeah.
Tooba:Whenever I I I feel like for me, it always holds this scene where his house floats with the balloons and land into a waterfall in some remote mountain region. I don't know, that scene always give me a reassurance that it's gonna be fine. It's gonna be super fine, whatever that is. So I just drew that. I just painted that scene because that really I think it's gonna be super fine.
Louise:Oh, So. So it's gonna be a waterfall there.
Tooba:Yes. And it is. It is. And I love mountains, water, falls, all these scenery as well. So, yeah, even if I end up in a remote place with no one else, I'll put colorful balloons around me and I'm going to be super fine.
Tooba:What about you?
Louise:Well, as I say, I put the confused smiling because I'm confused about my writing, confused about what I'm going to do after my PhD. I put a bubble with future and question mark because, well, as we say, we don't know what's going to happen. A bubble with writings, computer glasses, pen. And I put, on both sides of my drawing, I put a sun and a thunderstorm. Cool.
Louise:Thunder and clouds, I don't know. Because I think that's what the PhD is about. Sometimes it's very sunny, you're so happy, you're doing your PhD, you're proud of yourself, and sometimes you're like, depressive, a bit lonely, you're like, should I quit? And then around the little face, I put a lot of stickers, color stickers, because it's everything that is like every thought that is around you. So positive, negative thought, you're always thinking about your PhD, what you're to do after, what you're going to write.
Louise:I mean, PCs just all around you, like even at night sometimes I'm like, oh, this is a good idea, I'm going put it there. So yeah, your brain is always into the PhD and it's never stopping.
Tooba:I think you capture all the feelings very, very accurately. If I look at the sun, I feel like it's hypnotizing me. Oh, yeah. With all these thoughts. So it's really perfect.
Tooba:So, Luis, this is our last episode for I this podcast wanted to ask you how this recording journey has been in publishing. How did you feel about letting out all your thoughts and whatever you have to say about in these episodes?
Louise:That was a nice process. Just discussing about PhD is nice. PhD is very lonely. I mean, you discuss about it with your supervisor, sometimes you discuss it with friends, but also you don't want your friendship to be only about PhD, so sometimes you don't go in-depth. So it was nice about speaking about my own journey, but it was also nice to know about yours.
Louise:And I discovered we had more in common during our research. So it was nice. It was a bit chaotic because it was us taking more responsibilities and sometimes we had issues meeting the deadlines because, well, we had other priorities in life, of course. And I discovered a challenge for audition because I was editing the audio of the podcast, which was, well, I just learned it for less.
Tooba:And you're so good at it.
Louise:Thank you. I try my best. What about you?
Tooba:Well, I discovered that I can write blogs.
Louise:And you're very good about it. I like your narrative writing.
Tooba:Thank you.
Tooba:And I really, it was a bit of sometimes difficult to manage, find time to record and schedule and everything. But I was really waiting for it to end, to be honest, because I was like, here we go again. I committed to something that maybe I shouldn't have, but I think it was it was perfect. And, also, we really had these therapeutic sessions, I think five of them. Painting, I love painting, and I don't think I have time otherwise to regularly paint if we were not doing the podcast.
Tooba:So I really appreciate us taking this initiative. And, yeah, it's been it's been quite nice. We're a good storyteller. We're gonna just complement each other. And also thank you to all the listeners who listened to it, and we have received a lot of appreciation through email within IOE from our friends and family.
Tooba:So we still have a lot to learn, of course. This was our first take on podcasting and writing blogs, and we don't know if it was the last one, to be honest. We're gonna find out.
Louise:If you have enjoyed this podcast, search IOE Insights on your preferred podcast platform to listen to more episodes from the IOE.
Tooba:And a quick favor before you go, if you're listening on Apple Podcast or Spotify, we would really appreciate it if you could give the IOE Insights podcast a retake.
Louise:Five stars will, of course, be nice if you have been loving what you are hearing, and that will help reach more people who are interested in knowing what we are all about.
Male voiceover:Thanks for listening. Search IOE Insights for more podcasts from the IOE.