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A podcast focusing on the perspectives, lives, and stories of Kansans to provide greater insight into the state we all call home.
Ep62
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Hailstorm Fallout
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[00:00:00]
Gus Applequist: So we're recording this in, in May and w- we not too long ago had a pretty severe hailstorm in Salina. I don't know if you've had hail where you live lately, but man, is it disruptive. We've, we've had so many issues in Salina because of this dang hailstorm.
Sydney Collins: Yeah, we lost our movie theater.
Gus Applequist: We lost our movie theater, the mall is
Sydney Collins: c- mostly closed The mall is closed.
Ross is not open, which I'm really upset about.
Gus Applequist: You go... Like, I went through Menards the other day, and the skylight is just like Swiss cheese. There's just holes, and there's like a tarp- Mm-hmm ... just flapping in the wind. My mother-in-law, she's got a above ground pool.
Sydney Collins: Oh, I can only imagine.
Gus Applequist: And the pool itself is fine, but it's got one of those vinyl railings around the outside.
Yeah. Every single cap, every single one of them- Just demolished ... was shattered. I've never seen anything like it. So yeah, it's just wild. It
Sydney Collins: either really helped some people who needed new vehicles or- [00:01:00] Yeah really deterred them 'cause I have friends that got... Like, only had a vehicle for a day or even a week-
Gus Applequist: Oh
Sydney Collins: that it was, like, totaled.
Gus Applequist: Oh,
Sydney Collins: that's so sad. That's like all my Facebook feed was, was like, "I've only had this for a day," or, "Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. I can get a new car." Like-
Dent Repair Hustle Stories
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Gus Applequist: You know, there's- Like- ... there's sort of, like, two levels to the disaster. There's, like, the dealing with the day of- Mm-hmm ... and then there's the months of putting up with all of the out-of-state-
Sydney Collins: Oh my gosh The dent people- Yeah
or the roof people or the... so I used to work for the city of McPherson, and when we had hailstorms come through, you know, obviously all the vendors have to um, get permits- Licenses and everything. Mm-hmm
and we have to have background checks and all this. And it was always really funny because they thought they could bribe me to hurry up the process. So I would get, like, hamburgers. I'd get lunch. I'd get, like, these w- weird guys just being real nice to me- ... and hitting [00:02:00] on me, and I'm just like, "Guys, this is up to the police department, not me.
But sure, bring it on."
Gus Applequist: That uh, that really- We're
Sydney Collins: waiting on your background check.
Gus Applequist: Um, I, I hope this doesn't offend anyone in our audience, but that sort of fits with what I thought the story
Sydney Collins: Yeah, it's 100% what it is. 100 and te- Every once in a while you get some really sweet guys that'll come through, but mo- 95% of them are real cheese.
Gus Applequist: I got a, a new car four years ago, and three years ago I was in a terrible hailstorm-
Sydney Collins: Oh, yeah ...
Gus Applequist: out by,
uh
Sydney Collins: In
Gus Applequist: Colorado ... out by Colorado in, near Denver, and it, it was, like half the value of my car to get it fixed. Thankfully insurance covered it. But, So I went through like the, just the worst rigmarole- Mm
getting it all fixed again. I got it fixed, and then a couple months later, another hail storm. Another hail storm. Wasn't as bad, so I just kept it. And it hasn't been a problem up until this hail storm.
Sydney Collins: Mm-hmm.
Gus Applequist: I can't park in a public parking lot anywhere in Salina without somebody putting a [00:03:00] flyer under my windshield- saying, "Hey, you've got hail damage. Let me help you with that."
Sydney Collins: Yeah.
Meet The Cowboy Jim Gray
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Sydney Collins: Welcome to Ask a Kansan ...
Gus Applequist: a podcast connecting, amplifying, and uncovering Kansas. And today we have The Cowboy, Jim Gray, on the podcast.
Sydney Collins: And Jim Jim answers questions in a very different way than some of our previous guests. Jim answers in stories. Mm-hmm. So you may hear us ask a question, but you get a really kind of cool story from that question.
Mm-hmm. It may not answer it completely, but it do- he does h- he has some really amazing stories that he'll tell us throughout this episode.
Gus Applequist: Yeah. And he is a director of a [00:04:00] museum. He is an author. He is a, a former columnist. He is a cowboy. Jim is a lot of things.
Sydney Collins: Jim's a lot of things. So we're gonna let Jim introduce Jim-
and you kinda get the feel for him 'cause he is the, he... I don't know. He's also probably the best dressed so far this year.
Gus Applequist: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So. Without a doubt. Without any further ado, here is our guest, The Cowboy, Jim Gray.
Sydney Collins: Hello.
Gus Applequist: Welcome.
Sydney Collins: Howdy.
Gus Applequist: Yeah.
Sydney Collins: I feel underdressed.
Jim Gray: A little extra for you guys, but I do dress this way all the time
Sydney Collins: I love it.
Gus Applequist: Wow. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm gonna pull this microphone in here.
Sydney Collins: Okay
Gus Applequist: There?
Jim Gray: Good.
Gus Applequist: Well, Jim, welcome to uh, Ask a Kansan. Thanks for being here today.
Jim Gray: Yeah. It's an honor to be here.
Becoming The Cowboy
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Gus Applequist: For our audience's sake, could you introduce yourself?
Jim Gray: Well, many years [00:05:00] ago, because of the way I handled myself and everything people started calling me just Cowboy, but The Cowboy. So, so I'm The Cowboy Jim Gray, and I'm from Geneseo, Kansas, little town of 220 people or so. And I was raised on a piece of ground out east of, east of town about three miles, and come from a long line of livestock people. You know, well, my, my great-grandfather established the ranch in Rice County, just south of where I was raised, and I, we s- we're, we're still running that property today, so
Gus Applequist: Well, thanks for being here. I, I wanna start just by asking did you wanna be a cowboy- No from, from when you were a little kid?
Or when did you discover that love? I, I'll tell
Jim Gray: you a little story. Yeah, from the time I... Well, there's some pictures of me, which I can't believe, in sandals and shorts. [00:06:00] But I'm only about three years old, I think.
Gus Applequist: Hmm.
Jim Gray: But there's another picture of me about... And well, actually, I'm in shorts. I'm on a horse, about three or four years old. But in junior high I was a pretty good singer. I still like to sing, but and I always wore my cowboy hat to school. And my music teacher, who I thought she was everything to me, she, but, but she pulled me aside one day and she says, "You know, you need to get rid of that cowboy hat. Your voice will take you a lot farther than that hat will."
Gus Applequist: And how did that make you feel?
Jim Gray: I, I, think it just ran off like water. I didn't, I didn't take it too seriously be- but she was married to an old rancher herself. Mm. So, and I think she would ra- and so anyway, she would've rather seen me develop my voice in s- in some way, [00:07:00] but that wasn't really meant to be.
Falling for Kansas History
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Jim Gray: I'm, I'm a cowboy and a cowboy historian, and I just love Kansas history.
When I, I went, I graduated from Fort Hays State College in those days, it wasn't- Yeah ... yet a university in uh, 1972. And uh, we'd go to the library to study. They had tables up there where you could study, you know. Well, the archive room was just off to the side of those tables, and I figured out that they did- they weren't keeping that door locked, and I was going- And instead of studying, I was going in and pulling old books off the shelves, and, and I'd be buried in there forever, you know.
Gus Applequist: So- Kind of a problem I think a librarian would probably be okay having.
Jim Gray: Yeah. As long as you
Sydney Collins: put stuff back where it was lost.
Jim Gray: Yeah. And, and, and then [00:08:00] a- as I had got married and had children the the it's the Central Kansas Regional Library maybe in Hutchinson. Mm.
Sydney Collins: Mm-hmm.
Jim Gray: I- I'm not too sure I got the name exactly right, but man, I just loved to go in there, and my kids would go, "Oh, not again." 'Cause I would... And, and that was back in the card file days.
Sydney Collins: Mm.
Jim Gray: Mm. And I loved the card files because you could kind of browse through those and catch something right nearby.
Gus Applequist: Mm.
Jim Gray: Where if you-
Gus Applequist: Yeah ...
Jim Gray: went to the shelves, you don't catch it that same way. Mm. And, and, and if you go to the computer, it just doesn't... I don't know. I had a f- I had a good feel for the card files, so yeah.
Gus Applequist: I, I guess I wouldn't didn't- We
Sydney Collins: would not know.
Gus Applequist: Yeah. We, we- Yeah. ... sort of had that when we were in school, I think, but- No. No, we all, we still-
Sydney Collins: But we didn't use it ... we
Gus Applequist: had digital
Sydney Collins: then.
Gus Applequist: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Sydney Collins: We did u- we still used encyclopedias, but I think that's as much paper as, as we did- in elementary school. [00:09:00]
Abilene Stockyards Revolution
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Gus Applequist: Well, I wanna, I wanna dive into Kansas' ranch history a little bit with you.
Jim Gray: Okay.
Gus Applequist: For folks that know Kansas' wheat country the cattle town era can feel like a different planet. So from your point of view, what actually changed in Kansas the year Joseph McCoy set up the stockyards in Abilene in 1867?
Jim Gray: although we're known as a wheat state money-wise, there's more cattle-
Sydney Collins: Mm-hmm ...
Jim Gray: produced. It's- Sure ... it's the top producer-
Sydney Collins: Mm-hmm
Jim Gray: in the state of Kansas. But Joseph McCoy, '71 the whole thing changed. Mm. Up until he established his market in Abilene, you had to drive through Missouri, or you could stop at Baxter Springs, and there might be some buyers there to buy your cattle and move them on. But we had what they called Texas cattle fever, and that kept a lot of drovers from even trying to come north, and the ones that did sometimes ran into really big trouble. So [00:10:00] McCoy established that market so that when they would come straight north out of Texas, they didn't have to veer off into Missouri.
They would come straight up to Abilene, get on the trains, and then ship them to the markets in Illinois and, and beyond. So that, that did change Kansas from then on. The only thing was that, that Texas cattle fever continued to plague them because as the settlers would move in, they'd have their domestic cattle and they wanted to protect them 'cause if they got into contact with the, with the Longhorns, they could lose their whole herd.
Mm-hmm. Small herds, you know. They could lose their whole investment. So there was always a push to move the, what they called a quarantine line, further west. And so-
71, un- well, six- well, '67. Mm-hmm. Sorry about that. No. [00:11:00] '67 to '71 was Abilene, and a- and that's when Wild Bill was in town. Yeah.
Gus Applequist: Just four years.
It's incredible how four years in the history of a town like Abilene can come to define-
Jim Gray: Yeah ...
Gus Applequist: so much of the place.
Jim Gray: Yeah. Yeah, it was, it, it was, well, that whole time period uh, right up in- into the late, mid to late 1880s all those cattle towns, Dodge City at the, being the last one, but they, they had stories that you would think somebody just made them up. You know? They're so, so outlandish, some of the stories that the people would do. But anyway so, so the quarantine lines would b- were put in place. Settlers didn't want people, and the, the the businesses of Abilene cut their own throat, really, but they sent out a message that they didn't want the drovers back- [00:12:00] ...in '72. So they were already switching west, and they went to Ellsworth. But they also, '71, on the Santa Fe railroad, they had built the new s- new town of Newton and put in stockyards.
So they had a alternat- they had alternatives by then. Actually, it's, it's really amazing. In '67, he McCoy, Had 35,000 head of cattle shipped out of Abilene. The next year it was 70, just double, 70,000. Next year it just doubled again, 150,000. And then in '71 there were 300,000 head of cattle came north.
They couldn't handle them, and cattle just went all over the place. They went as far north as Schuyler, Nebraska up, up on the Platte River.
Sydney Collins: Oh, man.
Jim Gray: And uh, l- looking for good markets. And, and they were pushing over to Ellsworth. And every little town that had a stockyard was trying to get [00:13:00] their, the extra overflow trade.
It was, it was wild stuff.
Gus Applequist: So I imagine, you know, over the years you've spent a lot of time listening to these stories, reading these stories from that era-
Jim Gray: Mm-hmm ...
Gus Applequist: and trying to just imagine what it was like in your head.
Jim Gray: Oh. Yeah.
Modern Chisholm Trail Drive
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Gus Applequist: But, but you've gone one step further. In 2017 you helped organize an actual modern-day cattle drive-
Jim Gray: Yeah
Gus Applequist: up from the, up the Chisholm Trail. Can you just describe what that was, first of all, and, and then help our audience understand what it looked like?
[00:14:00]
Jim Gray: Uh, I think it was 2011.
Gus Applequist: Okay. Excuse me. I might have the wrong date.
Jim Gray: Uh, uh, 2011. Yeah. We, we, we, we drove from just south of uh, the Oklahoma border, south of Caldwell. And Caldwell was a major cattle town. I don't know, several marshals lost their lives-
Gus Applequist: Hmm ...
Jim Gray: in the line of duty there. But so, so we drove from just south of Caldwell to, to Ellsworth, and we tried to catch festivals and celebrations along the way. And Cal- Caldwell was having their, their ... I think that was when they were having their Chisholm Trail Day.
Anyway, and Those cattle weren't used to being just turned out on the road, and it was it was a little bit reminiscent of what it would've been like with ... Texas longhorn cattle were not domesticated. Mm. They were wild [00:15:00] animals. And these guys ... And we had a w- we had, mm, forgetting now what the number was, 300 head maybe. And we turned them loose out of a pasture out south of Caldwell the day before, tried to drive them down the road, and they just went flat on a run. they ran for a mile and a half. L- we would've crossed a field and onto th- onto the road. Ran for a mile and a half and, and I don't know, somebody must've been down there to turn them, but they turned the right, they turned the corner, 'cause that's where we were gonna go. They turned the corner and it So it was about two miles before they stopped running. I lost my canteen. It's still out there somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so we were c- pretty nervous the next day about taking those cattle in, and they were telling us, "Oh, you gotta get them in there just on a certain time." And okay, so we had to hold them back, and we'd ha- we had a little runaway b- [00:16:00] before, before we got into town. so then we w- were, we finally get the go ahead to come into Caldwell, and we're riding along, and you kind of r- come up a, a r- hill before you level off into town, coming up out of that Love Creek Valley there, and you can hear they got these loud s- the speakers on the streets. Rollin', rollin',
Gus Applequist: rollin'.
Jim Gray: And we were, yeah, we were all s- kinda standing in our stirrups ready for anything to happen.
Gus Applequist: Uh-huh.
Jim Gray: But there were so many people that day. They had advertised it well. There were thousands of people on the streets, and they created, created actually kind of like a little canyon.
Sydney Collins: Yeah.
Jim Gray: And those cattle just trailed right through. Just as pretty as can be. I could keep you till tomorrow morning telling stories. But yeah uh, that [00:17:00] drive was uh, three weeks.
Gus Applequist: Wow.
Jim Gray: Chuck wagons, wonderful food. I ate like a king. And uh, lived out in, you know, threw your bedroll out. My horse had a knack of getting off the line where they tied him, and he'd come over and wake me up in the morning want- wanting his feed. And so-
Gus Applequist: Hmm
Jim Gray: by the time we got to Ellsworth and everything, we, everything's all done, we actually did a double trail. We went through Ellsworth, turned them around, and came right back through again. 'Cause they had to load them on the south end anyway. And ' everybody, big Longhorn. And so, The next day was a Sunday morning, and my, my son had picked up my horse, and I'd stayed over in Ellsworth. And then I got up, and I got in my car, it w- had a car [00:18:00] there, and I headed out on the highway. And I bet I went, I know I went half a mile, maybe three-quarters of a mile before I realized I was only doing 30 mile an hour. You know, you just slow down. Your whole-
Gus Applequist: Mm-hmm ...
Jim Gray: everything slows down.
Gus Applequist: Hmm.
Jim Gray: So that was fun. Yeah.
Cowboy Work Then and Now
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Gus Applequist: you got to experience, you know, a, a type of the cowboy life that isn't really in existence, at least not here in central Kansas anymore.
Jim Gray: Yeah.
Gus Applequist: So how, you know, for our audience that, that have obviously heard of cowboys, but they may not really know what a cowboy does- Mm-hmm
and what they did, can you describe the role of the cowboy back then and then the role of the cowboy today?
Jim Gray: Well, m- of course, there would be two different ways to talk about that. If you were talking about the, the, the fellows on the home ranch there were things that they, they, they did not like a job that was off the, out of the saddle.
They did not wanna be on foot. Mm-hmm. So, so somebody else [00:19:00] built the wooden fences and things like that. Mm-hmm. It was before barbed wire, but, but see, the, the preparation for a drive north would begin as early as January. Wow. And they would, and they would go out and try to find of course, a lot of them had their own herds that were under fence, but of the free ones were free. So they went out into the brush country looking for the longhorn cattle that are hi- hiding out out there. And, the way they would do it was they... Well, I'm, I'm talking about the way one particular cowboy talked about how they did it on the Slaughter Ranch in south of San Antonio. And they would, they would ride out across the prairie, and then when they got to the brush, they, one, one branch of riders would go right, one branch would go left, and they would circle, [00:20:00] and they would meet. Hmm. And when, and when they met, everybody got off, tightened up the cinch- saddled back up and started back in together. Drive those, it's like a drive of driving those cattle out of the brush. And he this guy that told the story, Jim Cook was his name, he, said, "Well, at first, you know, I heard the cattle moving. Then pretty soon, I, I heard uh, you know, the horns popping against the brush, and you can, and, and the horse is picking up speed." And uh, he, all he could do was hold on. And the horse did the work. And they, they took those cattle out onto the open prairie, and I didn't, neglected to mention that then some of their cattle that they had kept under fence before, they'd drive them out there and allow those wild cattle to mix in with them to help calm them down.
Gus Applequist: Interesting.
Jim Gray: And then [00:21:00] they would take them back into the pasture.
Gus Applequist: Hmm.
Jim Gray: Or actually what they would call a corral, which would be like a, a, a whole section of ground surrounded by tim- timber fence, so
Sydney Collins: How does that, how does that differ from how people are ranching and cowboying today? Besides, you know-
Gus Applequist: For those of
Sydney Collins: us city slickers
for those who are us city slickers, like the way you were describing it- Yeah, well, I'm sorry. I,
Gus Applequist: uh- Yeah ... yeah, because,
Sydney Collins: uh- But
how, how is it, how has being a cowboy been modernized in a way?
Gus Applequist: Yeah.
Jim Gray: Oh, every bit of it's been modernized. I mean, very- there's some out there in the West that still sleep on out with a w- wagon on roundups. And, and I forgot to mention back in those days, they didn't call them roundups. They, they called them hunts, cow hunts. Mm.
Gus Applequist: Hmm.
Jim Gray: Because they were wild animals and they were hunting them. Yeah. So anyway the, the, the thing has progressed to where [00:22:00] everything is domesticated. It's put under fence. Breeding is controlled, and the, the cowboy, The, the ones that are the real cowboys, I guess, the ones that, the cowboys that are under saddle, they'll still go out for a, you know, all-day ride or whatever to bring cattle in and and, and that sort of thing.
That's in the big pastures. But, But, you know, we've got pickups. We've got four-wheelers. I don't think most You know, a lot of cowboys don't like- to use four-wheelers, but-
We've got a lot of ways that shortcut handling, handling the cattle. But there's still that spirit, you know, there's, there's You know, the, the cowboy is uniquely American.
Gus Applequist: Mm.
Jim Gray: There, there's the gaucho in South, South America. But, but the American cowboy is kind of a special [00:23:00] character that deep down, Just loves what he does, you know?
Hollywood vs Real Cowboys
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Sydney Collins: reason why I wanted you to answer that is 'cause we get, we're so inundated with film and TV, and so, like, in the days of- Hmm
Yellowstone- Uh-huh ... and Marshals, and, like- Yeah ... I wanted to know your take versus Hollywood's take, and if that was kind of the same thing, so.
Jim Gray: Well, I wouldn't wanna name any particular one, but- I didn't think the language was even accurate at all, and- Yeah that most of the cowboys that I have known are kinda shy and polite as all get out, you know? And would never cuss around a woman That's, that's the cowboy way. That's not the other place. Yeah.
Ellsworth Wild West Tales
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Gus Applequist: In addition to being a cowboy, you're also an [00:24:00] author. I have a, a quote here I, I believe from your book. "A man for breakfast was the morning's oath." Is that from your book? Are you talking about that?
Uh, Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The whole thing was I can have a man for breakfast, you know, in Ellsworth is-
Mm-hmm ...
Jim Gray: meaning kill somebody.
Sydney Collins: Mm-hmm.
Gus Applequist: Yikes. So yeah, can you tell us a little bit about your book and about Ellsworth?
Jim Gray: Yeah. And that saying comes from actually the Gold Rush days in the 1850s, so you can find it used i- in those California days.
But it, it specifically got attached to Ellsworth, O- okay. So tying it in with the cattle drives, the drives were coming to Abilene in 1867. Ellsworth was just being established, 1867, along the brand-new Kansas Pacific Railroad, and it was hell on wheels.
Gus Applequist: Hmm.
Jim Gray: It was the real deal. And the, the people that are coming in and out of there are, you know, you wouldn't [00:25:00] wanna spend much time with, I don't think. And there's a story of... Well, I won't tell that one yet. Anyway. So, so, uh, Ellsworth had... Well, it had... I'll tell- So one of the stories they that was told was that just like in the movies, there was a gang of outlaws that came into town and took over the town, and this I think was a year later in '68 The, the businessmen just kinda let them have their way
Gus Applequist: Mm
Jim Gray: until, and, and there wasn't a guy in a white hat come save them like in the movies. They saved themselves. They were all former soldiers in the Civil War. Some of them were from the border wars. They knew what tough was. And so one morning they went down and drug them out of their beds and hung them up on trees and put [00:26:00] signs on them that said something like, you know, "This is waiting for you." And they said the next morning people were loading up on the trains they didn't even ex- expect to leave town. You know? They, they're getting out of town because businessmen were gonna, were not gonna tolerate... They had tolerated it for a while, but they weren't gonna put up with it very long. But there was still a, quite a craziness about being that was end-of-track town, and then later on it becomes the end of the, end-of-trail town w- with the cattle. And I like to say the cowboys were tame. They in 1871 they said that uh, hell is in session in Ellsworth 'cause- like three or four men had been killed, and in the earlier years that was just a touch of what had happened. So it was worse when it was an end-of-track town than it was.
Gus Applequist: And you're also a columnist, is [00:27:00] that right?
Jim Gray: Well, I was. You were? I, I had a little bout with medical problems- and I just couldn't handle anymore, so I quit the column.
Gus Applequist: Gotcha. But for years- you've, you've communicated across the state really about Kansas and about the, the Western way sort of.
Jim Gray: Yes.
Gunfight Myths and Reality
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Gus Applequist: Can you... Just what's a, what's a, a, a common misconception people have about that era that, that you find yourself correcting a lot?
Jim Gray: I don't know if it's common, but a lot of Historians have oh, in the last 30 years, a lot of historians have come up with this idea that, that the towns weren't as wild as we think they were.
Gus Applequist: Hmm.
Jim Gray: That they were pretty calm. Well, that, you could say that. If you spread it out over a calendar year, there are a lot of calm days. But Ellsworth had at least two [00:28:00] gunfights just like the Gunsmoke gunfight in the street. And, and so many people claim that that's just didn't happen in the Old West.
Well, it, it happened. Only instead of instead of a gun, a, a lawman and a, and another cowboy, it was a, a saloon keeper and a bullwhacker-
Gus Applequist: Hmm ...
Jim Gray: mm, facing off during that end of track time.
Gus Applequist: Hmm.
1972 UFO Encounter Begins
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Gus Applequist: Well, I've sort of been keeping a secret from our audience. You're here to talk about two things. One of them is about being a cowboy, but the other one is about the other half of your life. I, I think a good way to get into this is could you talk about what happened to you in, I believe, the summer of 1972?
Jim Gray: Well, my wife to be, this was in Late July, early August. W- I, I don't remember the time. We were married on August 20th of '72. we were [00:29:00] coming towards Gen- we were south of Geneseo, and all of a sudden the inside of the car turned the most brightest, brilliant white light you could ever imagine I guess it maybe was re- started to retract out because once I gained my, regained my senses, I looked up through the windshield and I watched that beam. It didn't just disappear, it retracted up into the sky. And um, We didn't know. We just headed for home. Yeah. So but the... But it continued. We, we got into town and her, she li- her folks lived on the north end of town, right on Main Street.
You look... So I made a U-turn, and sitting in front of her house and talking about what had just happened. And about that time, [00:30:00] be one, two, about four blocks south, this dust devil a- just appeared over Main Street. A big dust devil, not some little thing. A big dust devil. And you know how they do. You've s- if you're a Kansan, you know, they just kind of wander when they- Mm-hmm this thing went, came straight down Main Street and blew right past our car. And we were so shook by then. I, I just told her, "You're going inside." And I went home, and that was it. But th- that was... And then I found out, I only... Since I've gotten involved with this whole UFO thing that it was 1972 that a lot of sightings were found out in Western Kansas especially. But I don't, I, I don't understand that dust devil. And they were playing with [00:31:00] us, I think.
Gus Applequist: that was your first experience with this UFO thing. Yeah. How did that... Did that lead to you getting involved in the UFOs like you're involved now, or was that just by happenstance?
Jim Gray: it's just, yeah. It maybe it led, it led me there and I didn't know it.
Museum Founder and UFO Links
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Jim Gray: But the Geneseo City Museum was started by Dr. Elmer D. Janzen, and he was many things. He had a, a a basket full of degrees. He was a minister. He studied braille and taught braille, and ventriloquist, and auctioneer, and a chiropractor, and, and naprasy was a another form. And so all these things that he did, and then the UFO thing. Well, he [00:32:00] was living with his folks in Geneseo. They'd moved from a farm in 1951 to town, and, And so he, h- his folks passed away. I think his dad was the last one, passed away in about 1974 or so. And he, he, started, he started up his ... Oh, it was sooner than that.
Doc Jansen Slide Archive
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Jim Gray: It was later, earlier than that. But anyway, it doesn't matter.
He's, it'd been in the '60s. started make, turning the house into a museum, and he had a, a really strong i-interest in families. And so he would get folks to give him his, their, their photographs, and he'd turn them into slides. And then he, he also put photographs all, just tacked them up on the walls, just everywhere, with little notations of who they [00:33:00] were. but in the end, we had like 8,000 slides.
Gus Applequist: Hmm.
Jim Gray: And that's what the Jansen Museum is about, is Doc Jansen's collection.
UFO Room Origins
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Jim Gray: Well, the, the, I think w- the most prized collection he had was his UFO collection, because he put, uh... We had drawings from a man by the name of John Dean, who lived in Nickerson, Kansas, and he was a mechanical arts teacher, and he had done specs of, of flying saucers and motherships.
And, and they were on right above the uh, fireplace, the mantle. That's what's, that's, that's the high place for the house, I think. Well, we moved, we moved it all into one room 'cause there was so much of it. so we have, have our, kind of our UFO room. He actually did a program with John Dean, and John Dean showed all of his slides, and it was supposed to be a program on outer space. Teachers didn't know what was [00:34:00] coming.
Sydney Collins: And
Jim Gray: here it was all about space brothers and- aliens and flying saucers and, and other planets that we had never heard of before.
Gus Applequist: I'd like to have seen that. This is so up
Jim Gray: my alley. Oh, man. Yeah, yeah. It created quite a sensation.
Museum Neglect Revival
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Jim Gray: Well, the thing was, then Dr.
Jansen died in 1976, and he had turned his... Just the year before, he had turned his museum over to the city.
Gus Applequist: Hm.
Jim Gray: I guess he knew it was coming. And so the city had maintained it, but the one thing that no one ever talked about was the UFO stuff. Even though it was still right there-
Gus Applequist: Mm-hmm
Jim Gray: no one talked about it.
And So what happened was then for several years It got neglected. The museum fell into disrepair. The folks that were looking after it thought that the building was about to collapse 'cause one [00:35:00] corner was, was sinking and uh, they'd gotten water in the basement and ruined a bunch of... But in, in 2018, the city reorganized the board to see what we could do with it, and that's when I, that's when I...
My s- my son s- brought me into it 'cause he knew that, you know, grew up with my history. So, so that's how I, I became involved in the museum itself, was to, to rebuild it, which we have. We've, we've done a wonderful job over just a few years, so.
Did Jansen Believe
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Gus Applequist: I- there's one, you know, couple things I find interesting here.
One is that from what I can tell, Dr. Jansen never actually had his own experience with UFOs. Is that true?
Jim Gray: That's the way I understand it. Yeah. He, he never, There was a young fellow that lived down the street from him that would come in out of, you know, curiosity and listened to uh, some of the audio [00:36:00] tapes that Doc had on UFOs, and he'd spend hours in there- Hmm
listening to. And he said, "I'm surprised he hasn't become a r- UFO aficionado," but he hasn't. But anyway Doc one, one day said to him, "You know, if you go out into a field on a dark night, they might come to you."
Sydney Collins: Oh, my goodness.
Jim Gray: So I think he probably had done that. We also have some audio tape where it sounds like he's trying to get them to answer him.
He goes, "This is Dr. Jansen. This is Dr. Jansen. This is Dr. Jansen." Sounds kind
Gus Applequist: of scary.
Jim Gray: Yeah. It's kind of cool, though.
Gus Applequist: You know, as a, a, a cowboy out, you know, I don't... I, I guess I don't know if you go out in your, in your pasture at night. But I can, I can see how that would be an environment where a UFO might just, you know, the supernatural seems a little more possible- Yeah ... in the dark and- Yeah,
Jim Gray: in the dark.
Gus Applequist: Yeah.
Jim Gray: [00:37:00] That's, that's right. No uh, but I, you know, I, I, I, I, that experience that I had in, in '72, we never talked about it.
Gus Applequist: Hmm.
Jim Gray: I didn't talk about it until after I started working on this-
Sydney Collins: Really?
Jim Gray: mu- museum.
Um-
Gus Applequist: Just because of the social faux pas of it, or, you know, like-
Jim Gray: I don't know why.
Gus Applequist: Hmm.
Jim Gray: We just didn't, you know?
Sydney Collins: Wasn't, it wasn't important at the time.
Jim Gray: Yeah.
Distant Horizons Prairie
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Gus Applequist: In uh, our pre-interview we asked what makes you passionate about Kansas? And you responded, "Distant horizons."
Jim Gray: Mm-hmm.
Gus Applequist: Is there any... Would you mind elaborating on that at all? What does that mean to you, distant horizon?
Jim Gray: Nothing ag- well, yeah, there is something against the mountains. They're beautiful, but I love the, a country where I can just... It feels like you can see forever.
Gus Applequist: Yeah.
Jim Gray: And, and, and, and, and at the same time, [00:38:00] it also tells you that you can go forever. You can, you can do forever.
Gus Applequist: Mm.
Jim Gray: I, I think that's what Kansas pra- the pra- I'm a prairie guy, and that's what the prairies say to me.
And, and actually You talked about going out at night on, on a horse and, which reminded me of being close, close to the earth, close. And earth will w- it, to me, sounds a little wacko maybe, but it will communicate to you. And it's not talking to you, but there's communication, you, understanding that comes by just spending time in nature and observing and enjoying it.
Gus Applequist: Hmm.
Medicine Wheel Wisdom
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Jim Gray: maybe have a little Native blood in me, but it's not enough that you can count. But I've always had a real s- real [00:39:00] strong draw to Native cultures, Indian cultures. And, um 25, 30 years ago I started building a medicine wheel out in the pasture, and that's a sandstone in our country, sandstone rocks in a big circle, then it's got spokes that run east and west north and south. And then I've got one s- spoke that runs to the uh, equinox, the two equinoxes.
Gus Applequist: Mm-hmm.
Jim Gray: Line up just as the sun comes up. There it is, you know?
Gus Applequist: Mm-hmm.
Jim Gray: And I s- and I spent a lot of time around that medicine wheel, and it has taught me as much as any college class I ever took about the circle of life.
And [00:40:00] it's on a hill, and, you know, the In- the Indians all consider themselves, their, their tribe to be the center of the earth. They, their people were the center. Well, when you stand at that medicine wheel and you look at the horizon, and you turn, and you turn, and you turn, it's a wheel. It's just a wheel. And that's, that's another thing about distant horizons. You look in any direction, you're, you're creating a wheel. And, and another thing about that is a lot of the cultures that moved into the prairie came in from the woodlands, and they had you know, wooden lodges, and they had great houses and things like... Not when they come onto the prairie. They built round, circular tipis. Hmm. The prairie teaches you something about the earth that you can't [00:41:00] get anywhere else
Gus Applequist: I've heard somewhere that one cubic foot of prairie ecosystem is more rich in life than any other type of ecosystem on Earth. Mm-hmm. I don't know if that's true, but, but there's certainly a lot happening.
Jim Gray: Yeah. Yeah.
UFO Day Visiting Info
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Gus Applequist: Well, just to sort of round things off how can people visit the Geneseo Museum?
Jim Gray: Well, we've got coming up, the haven't mentioned at all, Geneseo is Kansas UFO Day.
Gus Applequist: Mm-hmm.
Jim Gray: And we have a, we have some open grounds next to the museum, and we have vendors. Have a gal that puts together a pop-up market called, she calls it Martians and Market.
Sydney Collins: I love that.
Jim Gray: And oh, gosh, we have one...
We've had really good return, and the vendors love to come back. Mm-hmm. And so, so the grounds will be filled with people. We're, we have a mural downtown. D- we're the UFO capital of Kansas, so- Nice ... it's got that on the mural. So-
Gus Applequist: [00:42:00] What day is that?
Jim Gray: That's June 27th. Okay. It's a Saturday. Great. And any other time...
Oh, you know, we're gonna be on that Sunflower Summer program. Good.
Sydney Collins: Oh, perfect.
Jim Gray: Yeah. But we're only open on Saturdays, and so it'd be those Saturdays through the- Mm-hmm ... Sunflower my, my phone they tell you not to put your phone number out there somewhere. My phone number's everywhere. You know? So i- i- if you wanna come visit, then you can just- Give you a call ... get ahold of me, and if I can't do it, we've got a couple other board members that... Well, we've got five, so somebody's gonna make it.
Gus Applequist: Well, thank you, Jim, for making time for us today and for sharing about-
Jim Gray: I've enjoyed
Gus Applequist: it
cowboys and UFOs and everything else.
Roswell Cowboys Aliens
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Jim Gray: to Roswell- Uh-huh ... in, in uh, 2018, just as we were b- beginning the museum, and uh, there was a couple of these guys [00:43:00] from the movie, dressed up like the movie Alien and Predator. Predator. And they spotted me, and they drug me out, and we took pictures. Cowboys and aliens. Nice. So that was great. I love it. Cowboys
Gus Applequist: and aliens.
Jim Gray: Yeah. That's great. Anyway.
Gus Applequist: All right. Well, thank you.
Jim Gray: Yeah. Well, thank you. I've enjoyed it.
Hosts Reflect On Jim
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Gus Applequist: Well, thanks for tuning in for that interview with, with Jim Gragg. There's, there's a lot of quirks to Jim's personality There's a lot ... i, you know, there's sort of this idea in my [00:44:00] head and I guess it goes back to, like, the Roy Rogers time- Mm-hmm ... of, like, cowboys and Indians not getting along. Yeah.
Now we don't use that word. We say Native Americans. Yeah. yeah, Jim kind of flies in the face of that in many ways. Mm-hmm. I think he he's an intensely curious person who is, kind of has his eyes on the land and is always ready to, to listen when the land wants to say something.
Sydney Collins: Yeah, he... And also, I wanna meet his kids. Yeah. Now that I know Jim, I wanna meet his kids.
Gus Applequist: Yeah.
Sydney Collins: Just kind of- Yeah ... 'cause I'm sure they're all just really kind of cool storytellers and just down to earth, very soft- Mm ... shy. Like-
Gus Applequist: Mm ...
Sydney Collins: I don't know. I just wanna watch Jim for, like, a week.
Gus Applequist: Mm-hmm.
Sydney Collins: Just be a fly on the wall and see what his, his day-to-day is like.
Gus Applequist: You know, in, in my family, my, my dad and my grandpa, who's long passed they are storytellers- Yeah ... and always have been. And my mom always kind of groans, you know, is like, "Roy, they've heard [00:45:00] this one before-" "... like, multiple times." And, and, you know, sometimes my mom is right. Mm. And, and so are, you know... But there's also times when we haven't heard the story and and I think those are important and, and, and important to the memory of that person. Mm-hmm. And it was great hearing some of those stories from Jim today.
Sydney Collins: Speaking of- Do you, have you ever seen a UFO?
Gus Applequist: N- no
Sydney Collins: No?
Beam Me Up Kansas Game
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Sydney Collins: Well, today's segment is called Beam Me Up, Kansas.
Gus Applequist: I love it.
Sydney Collins: And what we're gonna do today is this is the segment where- ... we prepare extraterrestrials for their visit to Kansas.
Gus Applequist: I'm just impressed- So- ... you got the word extraterrestrials in there.
Wow. Y- That's a big word ...
Sydney Collins: that's a very big word, and I'm not gonna tell you that it wasn't copy and [00:46:00] pasted. But it's in there. So, we are just gonna put some questions up on the screen- Ooh ... and we're just gonna talk about them, and they're gonna be, like, if aliens were come to Kansas, what would their, what would we tell them? So first question is, what Kansas town would confuse aliens the most?
Gus Applequist: Easy. Easy. Lucas. I mean-
Sydney Collins: But see, I thought Lucas at first.
Gus Applequist: Uh-huh.
Sydney Collins: But that actually is probably more up their alley of weirdness. I was thinking, who has Christmas... Who's the Christmas town? Wamego?
Gus Applequist: Oh. Yeah uh, I think so. Wa-
Sydney Collins: Wakeeney? It's the Ws.
Oh, no. Oh, no. Ugh, where's Tanner when we need him? Anyway, but the- Marilyn,
Gus Applequist: can you fact-check that for us, please?
Sydney Collins: And, and I think it would be that one, of like why are they having a fat man with a beard all year round? Why are they worshiping this guy? Yeah. Like, that's what I would think.
Gus Applequist: Well, like, m- why I say Lucas is, like, especially if we're dealing with, like, a [00:47:00] first contact situation-
Sydney Collins: Mm-hmm
Gus Applequist: you know, if they're trying to, like, understand humanity through a place-
Sydney Collins: Oh, true ...
Gus Applequist: if, if they think that, that- Lucas represents the norm
Sydney Collins: of Kansas- They just go to the Garden of Eden.
Gus Applequist: They'd probably, they'd probably go there and be like, "Yeah, I think we're gonna go." Yeah. Not that we don't love Lucas. We totally love Lucas.
It's just it may not be the best representation of the state.
Sydney Collins: Oh, goodness. All right.
Gus Applequist: Yeah. This is fun.
Sydney Collins: Okay, next one.
Alien Questions Tornadoes
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Sydney Collins: What would aliens think tornado sirens are for? This one's a hard one.
Gus Applequist: Oof. Especially because they happen, like- Right ... not just, like weekly they happen- Yeah ... to test them, too.
Sydney Collins: I couldn't c- I couldn't think of one for this, but my ... If, if I did, it would probably be like some type of worship or like religion is what I would- I could see that ... equate it to.
Gus Applequist: Yeah. Yeah, it's- Like the coming
it's a habitual thing. People go [00:48:00] outside and look up.
Sydney Collins: People grab their lawn chairs and sit for Sunday service. If it's on a Sunday.
Gus Applequist: Oh my goodness.
Sydney Collins: Oh, goodness. All right. Which is more dangerous, tornado ser- season or state fair parking? If we had to describe to them like is tornado season more dangerous, or is trying to park at the state fair when it has rained for three days straight
Gus Applequist: If, if you aren't aware, we went to the state fair last year and we were there before it got really bad.
Sydney Collins: Yeah.
Gus Applequist: But if we hadn't been in a four-wheel drive vehicle, I don't know if we would've gotten out. It would have not been,
Sydney Collins: been good. So also kudos for the state fair figuring that out because I rode the buses the, when they announced that, like that same day. Worked like a charm.
Gus Applequist: Yeah.
Sydney Collins: Did not have to wait- State fair folks know what they're doing
in line very long. Got in and out. Yeah. It was great.
Gus Applequist: Yeah.
Sydney Collins: Yeah. Sorry.
Gus Applequist: But, but the- Tangent ... point stands. I think [00:49:00] uh, I Yeah, state fair parking is, is a little crazy, but tornado season espec- We were talking about this before the recording- Yeah ... today. That with all the storm chasers out there, it's like frankly so much- And-
more dangerous than it used to be.
Sydney Collins: Stor- Like legit storm chasers and you people that call yourself storm chasers. Yeah. There's a difference.
Gus Applequist: Yeah. Yeah. And we're appreciative to all our storm spotters- Yes ... who are out there informing the public.
Sydney Collins: All right.
Driving I70 Survival
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Sydney Collins: What's the first thing aliens should know before driving on I-70? I guess, or 135, but I think 70 is probably more popular than 35.
Gus Applequist: Oh, oh, you've made some enemies, I think.
Sydney Collins: I know.
Gus Applequist: Especially for someone who commutes on I-35.
Sydney Collins: Yeah, I commute on 35 all the time. Oh,
Gus Applequist: wow. So
Sydney Collins: my caveat would be, like, describe to them what orange cones are, like-
Gus Applequist: Oh, that's good ...
Sydney Collins: what construction is.
Gus Applequist: Yeah. Yeah. [00:50:00] I'm... I think mine would be, like, if you explain to an alien how to drive a car, it's like, okay, you know, 10 and 2, this is straight But on I-70, no this, this is straight. You know what I mean? 'Cause you are in a constant curve. And the wind. Oh, yeah, the wind. Like, on a windy day, you, like, you literally have to compensate- Mm-hmm
for the wind, and then the reason I know this is 'cause you go under an underpass, and it's like, "Oh, whoa." Oh, yeah. Or passing a semi. Yeah, that too. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Wind is, wind ha- has to be calculated, for sure.
Sydney Collins: All right. I don't remember how many of these I put in here. All right.
Negotiating With Aliens
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Sydney Collins: Which Kansan would you nominate to negotiate with aliens?
Gus Applequist: This question is a gift. Um, I think, I think Marcie Penner would be a good choice.
Sydney Collins: Ooh.
Gus Applequist: Um, I feel like- She
Sydney Collins: would be a good
Gus Applequist: choice ... she has good emotional intelligence, and I think- Yes ... that would be necessary. Yeah, [00:51:00] who, who's coming to your mind?
Sydney Collins: SB mowing. But I don't wanna do that to Spencer. Probably I don't know. I think-
And then part of me says Rob Riggle, but like
Gus Applequist: Well, I was gonna say Jason Sudeikis.
Sydney Collins: Or Jason Sudeikis- would be a good one.
Gus Applequist: Yeah.
Have you ever watched is it Gal- yeah, Galaxy Quest? Have you ever seen that movie? I don't think
Sydney Collins: so.
Gus Applequist: That's the one where, like, there's this TV show, and it's about... It's like Star Trek, basically. Yeah. And like, actual aliens kidnap the crew, the, the, the actors- Mm-hmm
that play them on TV-
Sydney Collins: Oh ...
Gus Applequist: to try to come and save their real-life planet
Sydney Collins: in- It's like A Bug's Life.
Gus Applequist: Yeah. Yeah.
Sydney Collins: When the circus people pretend to be- Yeah ... the warriors to come save the- Yeah ...
Gus Applequist: yeah. That's accurate.
Um- Sorry.
But, like, yeah, there's something about about Jason Sudeikis in, in Ted Lasso that, like, yeah, I [00:52:00] would just put him- I'd kind of push him out in front of the crowd and shrink back. Okay.
Sydney Collins: There
Gus Applequist: you go. Sorry.
Alien Energy Towns
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Sydney Collins: all right, which Kansas, Kansas town has the most alien energy?
Gus Applequist: Ooh. There's a lot of good ways of thinking about that. Yeah. I think Lucas would also be a good one. Obviously
Sydney Collins: Lucas, obviously Geneseo. But I think... Alien energy. See, I have to think about this real hard.
Gus Applequist: This is where I would, I would pull in, like, a, like, a Tribune-
Sydney Collins: Ooh ...
Gus Applequist: or a, like, one of those, those towns that's really out there on the edge of everything, where it's, it's wild. Like, I can't im- I've never been out in that area, like, during a blizzard.
Mm-hmm. I've been in Rexford, of all places, during a blizzard. But
Sydney Collins: Somewhere remote.
Gus Applequist: Yeah, where you feel like you are, you know-
Sydney Collins: Extraterrestrial?
Gus Applequist: Yeah. Footprints in the snow. Footprints in the snow.
Sydney Collins: I think that might be the last one. Yep, that's the last one. Yeah,
Gus Applequist: that was fun. These are good questions.
Yeah. I like it.
Sydney Collins: [00:53:00] We... I struggled trying to f- find something for today, but this one- Yeah ... 'cause we've done a lot of quiz things lately. Oh, yeah. So- No, it's time for something new ...
Gus Applequist: we needed some conversational- This is, this is, this is a whole new paradigm in-
Sydney Collins: Yeah ...
Gus Applequist: in segment.
Sydney Collins: And where else are you gonna find an alien riding a unicorn?
Gus Applequist: Yeah. That's kinda strange.
Sydney Collins: Shout out to Canva for this beautiful template. What is hav- Okay, everyone is looking at us right now. Oh, yeah, there's
Gus Applequist: a, there's a whole intensity-
Sydney Collins: Is, did I miss one? and control There, okay, so everyone in the control room is just staring at us right now, and it's really weird.
Okay. Well, we're just gonna move on.
Gus Applequist: Yeah, yeah.
Share Your UFO Story
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Gus Applequist: You know, if you have a UFO story from Kansas-
Sydney Collins: Yes ...
Gus Applequist: we would love to hear it.
Um-
Sydney Collins: So my stepmom has one. I wish I could remember it word for word, but something along the lines of they were in North she grew up on a farm in kinda North Kansas. And her and her sister were on um, a [00:54:00] on on a hill, and, like, they saw one, like, during sunset. I wish I could remember- Hmm ... it word for word, but I can't. So Wakeeney, ugh, Wakeeney is the Christmas town. Sorry, I knew it was one of the Ws.
Gus Applequist: Thanks for the, the fact-checking there, guys. Yeah. Yeah the closest thing I could say, which doesn't really count 'cause I knew what it was, so it wasn't- Mm-hmm
unidentifiable, but was I, I saw a, a Starlink shortly after launch when we were out- Oh, yeah ... near Colby, and it was pretty eerie to see those little dots- Mm-hmm ... and then them just, like, take over the whole line in the sky. Mm-hmm. That was pretty crazy.
Sydney Collins: But- So yeah if you have a UFO or space story, send it in, in what is our email?
Info@askakansan.com, or send it to us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. We'll find it.
Gus Applequist: Yeah.
Episode Wrap Announcements
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Gus Applequist: And that brings us to the end of another episode of Ask a Kansan. Thanks for tuning in today.
Sydney Collins: Yep. Make sure to visit askakansan.com. Sign up for the Curious Kansas newsletter, and check out the merch.
Gus Applequist: Yeah, there's a lot of [00:55:00] exciting guests coming up this summer.
We are I'm just gonna tease you with one that's out a little ways. We're gonna do a month on education- Yes ... at the beginning of the school year. Mm-hmm. So hope you have a chance to tune into that. We have some exciting guests coming on for that. We have my middle school
Sydney Collins: music teacher.
Gus Applequist: Yay. So, so yeah, thanks for tuning in today, and hope you have a good rest of your week.
Sydney Collins: Bye.