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In this episode of Pop Culture RoundUp 2.0, we each bring a trending topic to the table—from science and society to celebrity headlines—and dive into what they reveal about the world we live in. We start with teen sleep: does going to bed earlier actually improve cognition, even if sleep time doesn’t increase much? Then we explore mood changes in kids aged 6–11, the role of early puberty, and the modern pressures today’s middle childhood generation faces. Next, we take on Katy Perry’s controversial trip to space—why was there backlash, was it deserved, and did her journey really have anything to do with feminism? Finally, we ask the question no one saw coming: Is Prince William the hotter prince now? We explore how confidence, maturity, and character might be shifting public perception of male attractiveness. It’s a mix of science, society, and a little royal tea—don’t miss it!
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Lauren (00:00.508)
I hear that.
Vanessa (00:01.57)
Welcome to the Shrink Down. Today we're gonna be doing another pop culture roundup. So a few episodes ago we did this. This is where we each share a news article or a social media post or something trending. And we just kind of talk about it for a few minutes, give our thoughts, throw out a question to each other. So today we're gonna be going over a couple different articles, topics, anything from, well, sorry, not anything, but including sleep, childhood, male attractiveness and aging, and even we'll have some pop star chit chat as well.
But before we get into today's topics, let's do our four minute faves. Who wants to go first?
Teri (00:36.497)
I'll go.
Wilhelmina (00:36.617)
I'll go. there you go.
Teri (00:39.781)
So mine is quick. It is a fruit basket available on Amazon that I had been coveting and eyeing because it was sold out for almost a year. And all of a sudden, I think I had forgotten, I had just assumed it would never be available and it somehow ended up in my favorites or somehow in my Amazon list where all of a sudden I got an alert a couple of weeks ago, it's available again. It's big. It's about this big. See my head.
Vanessa (00:52.184)
Wow.
Lauren (00:52.741)
Lauren (00:56.892)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (01:07.686)
yep.
Lauren (01:07.805)
Ooh. that's a basket.
Teri (01:09.551)
but it's got, it's mesh and it's got a lid. So it keeps like fruit. So it's got a lid and it's mesh and it comes in a couple of different colors. It's pretty heavy duty. It's about 40 bucks and it's also got a bottom. So if you don't, I won't be able to do it right now. Okay. Anyways, it couldn't just all be mesh. Like this bottom piece comes out and then it can be all mesh so that the fruit can breathe, but little fruit flies.
Vanessa (01:18.467)
Yeah.
Vanessa (01:32.238)
Okay.
Lauren (01:36.509)
Do you put it in the fridge or no?
Teri (01:38.449)
No, on your counter. So I'm going to put it on my counter. I'm going to put lemons and apples, I believe is my plan. Yes. No, no, no. That's a good question.
Lauren (01:40.421)
Okay, what fruit are you putting in there?
Okay. Okay. So like harder skin, like not berries or anything. Okay. Interesting. Well, I was, I can't like hard to tell. Interesting. That's cool.
Teri (01:54.33)
I
Vanessa (01:55.64)
So does it tell you, know, like the purpose, is it just to keep the, like, I'm just curious because I have a fruit basket, but it's all open. So is it really just more so to keep like the bugs, like the fruit flies away?
Lauren (02:01.766)
Yeah, same.
Teri (02:04.529)
keep fruit flies and bugs away. And I think it's maybe better to have a little protected, but it's mesh. So because my I have one now too, and it's open. And we usually don't have issues with fruit flies, but I will say there is a period in the summer, I feel like that sometimes there is more I feel like I'm the little gnats and stuff. So it looks really cool. It's big though.
Vanessa (02:10.572)
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense.
Lauren (02:11.195)
Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (02:14.317)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (02:14.673)
Yeah, same.
Vanessa (02:27.0)
Does it come in different sizes? was gonna say, aesthetically, it's very pleasing. Much more pleasing than my fruit basket currently.
Lauren (02:27.101)
That's good.
Wilhelmina (02:30.218)
Yes.
Teri (02:30.413)
So I ordered it. So I did order that's only one size. It's big. But that same company makes a smaller one that I ordered to go next to it that's open that doesn't come with a lid. It's just like a cute little open same color. So I'll link it. It's very cute.
Lauren (02:31.867)
That's cute.
Vanessa (02:44.11)
Yeah, interesting. Thank you.
Lauren (02:44.327)
How cute. Yeah.
Vanessa (02:48.256)
Anyone's looking for a Mother's Day gift? There you go.
Wilhelmina (02:48.341)
And it's nice that you can, there you go. It's nice that you can take it out to wash it because I feel like I know for us, we'll not eat all the fruit and then it's just sitting there and you're like, this apple is mushy. And so, and then it gets like stuff on it. So it's nice that you can just take it and wash it and put it back for the next fruit to rot away.
Lauren (02:50.589)
There you go. I like that.
Teri (02:50.906)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes.
Lauren (03:02.491)
Yeah.
Vanessa (03:02.495)
Yeah.
Teri (03:05.753)
Yes, I'll let you know.
Lauren (03:09.585)
Right.
Teri (03:10.321)
throw out. know. know. Bye bye.
Wilhelmina (03:12.619)
Nothing more hopeful than a fruit basket.
Lauren (03:15.676)
You
Teri (03:16.791)
No, nothing more hopeful than a bag of greens to sit in your fridge.
Wilhelmina (03:20.715)
that's so true!
Lauren (03:20.762)
yeah.
Vanessa (03:20.91)
Mmm. Salad. The salad bag.
Lauren (03:24.827)
huh.
Teri (03:24.879)
That's what I mean. A bag of greens, the salad bag. Yes, that is it. How about you?
Wilhelmina (03:25.579)
you
I love when Owen looks at the expiration date and it's clearly not good. He's like, this isn't too bad. I'm like, let's not go by the expiration date. Let's go with the insides, which are practically just water and juice at this point.
Lauren (03:40.011)
juice at this point.
Vanessa (03:40.782)
It's gelatinous now.
Teri (03:42.085)
Yeah, it's so gross. Yes, yes. How about you, Wilhelmina?
Lauren (03:44.253)
That's funny.
Wilhelmina (03:46.768)
so I am going to talk about a movie that I saw. I think I saw it a couple of weeks ago now Sinners. It is getting a lot of buzz because it has gotten really good reviews. It's a 98 % on Rotten Tomatoes, which is pretty high. Like one of the last movies I got that was like Lady Bird, which I think won the Oscar. And then it has a 97 %
Lauren (04:09.073)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (04:16.747)
popcorn meter, which means like they break it down between like the reviews and like the people who just go see the movie. And to have that, both of them be so high is pretty unusual. It is directed, written and directed by Ryan Coogler. So he did Black Panther, Creed, and this is his first entirely original like piece of work. So obviously Black Panther being part of the Marvel, Marvel.
Vanessa (04:34.69)
Hmm.
Teri (04:34.737)
Mmm.
Teri (04:44.603)
Marvel.
Lauren (04:45.105)
Yeah.
Vanessa (04:45.614)
That was my guess. Superhero people.
Wilhelmina (04:45.715)
Yeah. And then, yes, I'm like one of those. I was like, is it DC or Marvel? That's where I was like pausing. And then Creed, of course, being part of the Rocky franchise. It is so good. It is a little bit of everything. In fact, I just looked up the description and it was like mystery, thriller, drama, horror. And I feel like that does sum it up.
Teri (04:49.135)
Maybe. Maybe.
Lauren (04:49.341)
Bye.
Lauren (04:54.045)
Yeah.
Lauren (05:14.618)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (05:15.403)
It is pretty open about what it is, which like it does involve vampires, which seems like a sort of strange kind of throw in, but it is set in the Jim Crow era deep South and involves two brothers. it's Michael B. Jordan, who has actually been in all of Ryan's films. And Ryan or Michael B. Jordan times two, because he's a twin.
Teri (05:31.025)
Mm.
Lauren (05:35.133)
Okay. Yeah.
Lauren (05:43.504)
Okay.
Teri (05:44.432)
Hmm.
Wilhelmina (05:44.732)
And it is described as a movie about music, race, family, religion, and then you throw in some vampires with that. And that's pretty much the movie. It reminds me a little bit of Robert Rodriguez's movie From Dusk Till Dawn from 96. Very similar where you have the first part is the storyline.
Lauren (05:54.843)
Ha ha ha!
Vanessa (06:04.258)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (06:04.497)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (06:11.901)
And then halfway through the movie, it flips on you and turns into sort of the horror aspect of the movie. As we were watching it, I leaned over to Owen and I was like, I love seeing movies like this that are so original and so different than anything I've seen, even though it has aspects of things. I've seen a ton of vampire movies, things like that. But the way it's so smart, the way it weaves race into a storyline, music.
hate even, like how hate gets perpetuated in life. It is such a smart movie. Yeah, I highly recommend. It is just, you do have to be okay with some gore. But I don't think it is just, it is not a straight horror movie. It's a very smart, intelligent horror movie that just happens. I would say it's actually a very smart thriller and drama that just happens to have vampires.
Vanessa (07:10.83)
Isn't the female, like the main female character, it Hailey? She's one of them. Okay, because yeah, there was something I was watching recently, like a clip, and they were saying how, like her and him, like how cute they're kind of...
Lauren (07:10.845)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (07:15.573)
She's one of them, yes, yes.
Wilhelmina (07:24.031)
Yes, yes, have some good chemistry.
Vanessa (07:27.438)
Yeah, chemistry, that's the word. I'm like, not relationship, chemistry, yeah.
Wilhelmina (07:30.949)
and when she first came on, I was convinced that she was going to sing because so many, there's so much music in it and she is a singer and she didn't, but yeah, she was good. I was like, I bet she's going to sing. And I was, I was wrong.
Vanessa (07:35.982)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (07:40.3)
Yeah, interesting.
Lauren (07:41.713)
Yeah. Nope, not a clue.
Teri (07:45.065)
I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but that's okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Vanessa (07:45.55)
So Michael B. Jordan plays... I think if you saw her, you would recognize her. You would definitely recognize her if you saw her, for sure. So Michael B. Jordan plays two characters. Huh, interesting, okay.
Wilhelmina (07:51.029)
You would recognize her, yeah.
Wilhelmina (07:57.044)
Mm-hmm. Twin brothers who are coming back from Chicago. They clearly have been wrapped up with like, what's the guy, Chicago Prohibition.
The Al Capone, Al Capone, yeah. And they're trying to make it straight, kind of set it straight. So they buy this saloon and they try to open, or try this mill and they try to start this saloon. the whole movie is one day. It starts at the end of the day and it says one day earlier and it takes you through the whole day.
Lauren (08:10.013)
The mobster.
Vanessa (08:11.401)
gosh.
Teri (08:12.538)
Okay.
Lauren (08:27.143)
Hmm, interesting. Very cool.
Teri (08:28.625)
Okay, good. How about you, Lauren?
Lauren (08:32.079)
So I'm sharing something that I've had for a while, but I've been using more recently because so I'm sharing a cuticle oil. Believe it or not, this is do you guys remember when we got our nails done in Austin? This is what I bought from there and I've been using it since but I've been using it more now because I'm not doing my nails. I'm just doing I'm just trying to for so many reasons. Yes, I don't like the amount of time it takes. I don't like the cost. It feels like it keeps increasing to go and
Vanessa (08:45.475)
Yes.
Teri (08:48.901)
Wow.
Vanessa (08:49.931)
wow.
Teri (08:55.171)
On Naturel.
Lauren (09:01.853)
to the nail salon and things like that. Anyway, so I'm just trying to like go on my own for a while. So I've been doing like nothing, not even painting them on my own, just using cuticle oil to like strengthen them and make them look nice. But it's Dottie oil. don't like, I don't know if anybody else got this when we were there. It's on Amazon as well, but I happened to get it from that place and then I've gotten it from Amazon. It is so good. Especially if you're somebody that doesn't want, like wants to take a break.
Vanessa (09:01.966)
it does.
Lauren (09:29.437)
It really heals your nails. And even if you don't want to take a break, it's great. Like I just, put it on right before I start my makeup in the morning and then it, you know, soaks right in. And I've been loving it lately. It's, totally brought my nails back from the dead after too much dip, dipping powder. You know, I've been doing dip for too long. And so they've been bare for a while, but they actually, I think, I mean, up close, like when I look at them, they don't bother me.
Wilhelmina (09:45.227)
I need that. Mm-hmm. Ugh, I have nothing.
Vanessa (09:45.88)
Yep.
Teri (09:47.515)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (09:56.413)
because I think because the cuticles look good. And then I'm like filing them regularly and things like that. But Dottie oil, and like I said, I'll link it. But I first started using it back in Austin. So that was years ago. I know, but I'm using it so much more frequently now that now it's become something that I'm like, I actually really like this. So yeah, it's been a fun one. Vanessa, what about you?
Wilhelmina (10:09.291)
That was a long time ago, yeah.
Vanessa (10:09.464)
That's amazing.
Teri (10:11.536)
Go.
Vanessa (10:23.522)
so I'm sharing a recipe and then realized that I was also sharing like a something that I put in it. So, I've talked about my forever trying to increase my protein and trying to hide cottage cheese so I can sneak it in my diet. So I came across this recipe. It's by lifestyle of a foodie. So it's her blog. it's cottage cheese cookie dough.
Wilhelmina (10:37.323)
You
Lauren (10:48.689)
Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (10:49.728)
Yeah, so I'm sure seeing there's lots of people have different recipes. I really like hers. So it's basically cottage cheese, some almond flour, vanilla protein powder, vanilla extract, maple syrup, and then chocolate chips if you want. You don't have to put those in there. I will say the only thing that I have modified, and I think you kind of have to because I sent this recipe to my friend and she was like, my god, that was disgusting. And I was like, I've had to tweak it. Like, I've had to tweak it a little bit to make it.
Teri (10:49.745)
Mmm.
Lauren (11:14.371)
Okay.
Vanessa (11:18.648)
to me tastes better. So I only do half of the scoop of protein because I think protein powder can have like a little bit of an off-putting taste. so I have found that if I just do half of whatever like amount, like depending on like how much you want to make, that it's way like tastes much better. But I definitely think you need to put it in there because it definitely changes the texture of it to make it more like cookie dough.
Lauren (11:19.963)
Yeah.
Teri (11:24.198)
Mm.
Lauren (11:27.739)
an aftertaste.
Teri (11:29.083)
Yeah.
Lauren (11:38.843)
Helen.
Vanessa (11:44.91)
So it's really easy to make. You just put kind of like the wet ingredients in the blender for like two seconds, put it in a bowl and then mix in the protein powder and the almond flour. I love it. I don't think you can taste the protein powder and you don't taste the cottage cheese. And then for my chocolate chips, I use the Enjoy Life. I'm sure everyone's kind of come across these. These are like gluten-free. They're made in like a nut free gluten free facility. So like I use these a lot.
Lauren (12:06.173)
Yeah.
Vanessa (12:13.262)
And I just sprinkle some in there. So you can freeze it if you want to. I never, I always end up eating it. I don't ever have any left to freeze. So I don't know what it tastes like frozen, but I really like it. It's a really good, I think dessert and it's got, like I said, it's got a good amount of protein in it if you're looking for kind of like a healthier alternative for a dessert, but that's my share. I'll put the recipe up. All right, yep.
Lauren (12:21.415)
Freeze.
Sure, done.
Lauren (12:36.445)
Yum.
Wilhelmina (12:37.387)
I was gonna say, when you put the recipe up, why don't you put it with the modifications you've made? Yeah, yeah.
Vanessa (12:41.452)
Yeah, no, I am. Yeah, I'll put it. I'll type it in and put it with mine. Because yeah, I I would I tried it the first time and I was like, that's just not right. I don't like that. And I think that's something, you know, one of the things I think you have to do whenever you're making a recipe is if you're not using the same exact I'm sure there's like difference when you're using different protein powders because they all taste different. So depending on what you're using, I just use one from like the local grocery store like so over here on the East Coast, we have Wegmans. It's kind of like a I don't know. It's like a
Wilhelmina (12:49.023)
Hahaha
Lauren (12:49.297)
Yeah.
Vanessa (13:10.606)
What's in Chicago now? No, it's higher than a Joule. And it's not quite a Whole Foods. It's kind of like in between, whatever that would be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's their own protein powder. So that probably makes a difference. But yeah, I'll put in the recipe with my modification of just half a scoop of protein powder. But it's really easy. It's really quick. And it's really tasty. So that's my share. All right, so let's get into our pop culture roundup. Who wants to go first? Share their topic.
Lauren (13:11.901)
Sure.
Wilhelmina (13:12.149)
Joel.
Lauren (13:17.296)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (13:18.611)
Mariana, see ya.
Lauren (13:31.249)
Yeah, awesome.
Wilhelmina (13:31.403)
Sounds good.
Lauren (13:40.581)
I'll go. So this came across sort of, well, actually, it was like the end of Good Morning America in an episode just the other day. So you know, that's when they're a little bit more poppy in doing just kind of like little cultural news stories. But it was a brand new study that came out of University of Cambridge on sleep and specifically sleep in adolescence. And they had over 3,000 adolescents participate in the study. so like the
Vanessa (13:41.388)
Okay, go ahead Lauren.
Lauren (14:09.777)
The scientific piece of things is they were trying to figure out, can we really promote and push sleep as providers, as clinicians? And in what way specifically can we tell parents why this is so important? And you guys know, and I think it's true for you guys as well, this is like my Roman empire in therapy. I'm constantly like, this is something free you can do for your kids. It's free.
Wilhelmina (14:30.197)
Yes, me too.
Teri (14:34.841)
and how do you make teenagers follow your sleep recommendations?
Lauren (14:37.029)
Right. And so that's kind of where this study was kind of coming from. And so what they did is they did brain scans on the kids before and after. So it was adolescence. They put a Fitbit on these kids all day long, had the testing before and after, and then they just monitored their sleep. They didn't do any kind of interventions. They just kind of looked at what
makes these kids different. So they came up with three different groups in terms of different kinds of sleep habits. One, they labeled as the worst sleepers, two were moderate, and then three were the best. So it was really kind of simple in the way that they approached the study. And what they did is then after they had monitored them for so for their period of time, they did cognitive testing on these kiddos.
Wilhelmina (15:30.315)
Hmm.
Vanessa (15:31.854)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (15:32.175)
and found that the best sleepers had better vocabulary testing, problem solving, and other cognitive testing as well, but lower heart rates. And so what they then determined is this, like the best sleepers went to bed the earliest out of all of the kids.
Wilhelmina (15:45.702)
Ooh.
Teri (15:53.275)
Hmm?
Vanessa (15:54.286)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (15:54.651)
slept the longest, but not by significant amounts. We're talking like 15 or 20 minutes longer than the moderate group and then the worst group went to bed earlier, slept the longest and had the lowest heart rates, meaning they were most active during the day. So they had the lowest resting heart rates. And so they were saying, this is like really important. Like you can literally improve your child's brain functioning by encouraging.
these couple of aspects, you know, being active during the day, going to bed early, and then getting a proper amount of sleep, which they said for six to 12 year olds is nine to 12 hours. And then 13 to 18 year olds is eight to 10 hours. But what I found, so like this is stuff that we all know, right? They of course had a little bit more of a, like a little spin on this data, but what was so interesting is the pediatrician that was on Good Morning America discussing this study. And then there's of course the panelists there, the Good Morning America anchors and things like that.
Vanessa (16:31.427)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (16:50.523)
And they immediately were like, yeah, do you have kids? There was this sort of reaction out of the parents in the group. And the pediatrician said, yeah, my 12-year-old is constantly complaining about this, but this is something that's really important. And now I have the data to show her. And it just made me think about.
Wilhelmina (16:55.882)
Ooh.
Vanessa (16:57.581)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (17:12.623)
All of the pushback I have had, and I know you guys have had too, because we've discussed this, in therapy with parents discussing the importance of sleep, and then seeing this out of these Good Morning America anchors, and it brought this question, why is this so controversial? It immediately brings reactions out of people, and I just find it so interesting.
Vanessa (17:35.086)
Can I ask a quick question about the study? So did they say what the range of sleep was at the best sleepers? That's what I want to know. What does it compare to what we're saying they should?
Lauren (17:36.583)
Yeah.
Lauren (17:41.243)
Yes, it was not. So it went from an average. So an average, the worst sleepers were seven hours and 10 minutes, moderate 715. And the best average seven hours and 25 minutes. So it wasn't even a huge, but it was the combination of the earlier bedtime, the average amount of sleep and the lower resting heart rate. So they made very careful not to give specifics on that.
Vanessa (17:55.95)
Interesting. Yeah.
Teri (17:56.527)
That's so incriminating, so tiny.
Vanessa (17:59.938)
Right. Okay.
Wilhelmina (18:00.991)
and what was the earlier bedtime.
Wilhelmina (18:08.138)
off
Lauren (18:08.881)
but they were saying it really depends, you know, this is University of Cambridge, so it really depends on where you live, the culture, like what time the school starts, like those kinds of things. And that really determines early, end quote, right? But these kids had earlier bedtimes compared to the other two groups. So why doesn't it strike such a chord?
Vanessa (18:19.203)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (18:19.262)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (18:28.682)
Yeah. I feel like it's just in general. So in every single one of my reports, every single one of my reports, I talk about sleep hygiene, I talk about the need for physical activity, and I talk about like diet, like healthy living, in every single one of them. And I feel like this is just yet another one of those things when you tell parents you have to put a restriction on it, like social media use, where you get 1,001 excuses why.
Teri (18:29.975)
I think.
Lauren (18:35.963)
Yeah. Same.
Yep. Yep.
Teri (18:42.331)
Same.
Lauren (18:51.345)
Yes.
excuses.
Vanessa (18:55.694)
And I always kind of look at parents and I say, hey, my job is just to tell you the data. It's your job as a parent to decide what you want to do with that data, with that information.
Lauren (19:01.959)
Yeah, here's the data. Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Teri (19:08.473)
I think implementing any type of structure on a consistent basis and having to put effort towards that is challenging. I think parents are tired. I think they're burnt out. think the worst time when kids need structure and focus the most is when everybody is tired. So we're asking parents after a full work day,
Lauren (19:18.865)
Mm-hmm. This, yep.
Wilhelmina (19:20.693)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (19:30.045)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (19:35.875)
of getting through the witching hours of homework, sports practices, dinner, maybe chores. Okay, now I would like for you to follow a bedtime routine and execute all of this by 8pm or whatever it is for an early bedtime. my yeah. And so no, but I think that's what it is, is that we're asking everybody to exercise self control and get through
Lauren (19:36.06)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (19:45.201)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (19:46.558)
you
Lauren (19:53.725)
So I brought this topic, yup, go ahead, finish, sorry.
Now I.
Teri (20:05.123)
At the end of day, when your self-control is the lowest and you have a lot of what we call restraint collapse, we're asking everybody in the household to try to implement a consistent plan on a nightly basis. And I think that's part of it.
Lauren (20:16.061)
So I brought this up with Tim before we recorded. said, I think this is what I'm going to talk about. just, you know, whatever. And his response was, because it's hard. He's like, one of the best things that you, you know, he always gives me credit to really pushing the two of us in implementing a structure for sleep. And we did sleep training with our two boys from an early, early age. And we've remained.
Wilhelmina (20:26.175)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (20:27.035)
Bottom line.
Lauren (20:41.361)
really structured with sleep. mean, even to the point where we were on vacation this last week and our kids still pretty much maintained the same bedtime, maybe a tiny bit later. But when we were in Florida and when they were in the sun and running around all morning, they were asking to go back to the room and lay down at like 1 p.m. every day. Like it was like their brain reverted back to even early sleep training models of like, okay, we need a little bit of rest now before we keep going.
And Tim said, to your point, Terry, and what you used some really, you know, some more behavioral terms that we utilize with parents and kind of what exactly is going on in the brain during those periods of time. But Tim said, because it's hard. And so people don't like things that are hard. I'm like, he's right.
Vanessa (21:26.178)
Yeah. And I think it's, you touched on, think, two things that are important. Like when you do it early on with kids, when you're very structured with sleep early on, I feel like it's easier to then to continue to implement that. And so it's hard. And it's like the same thing like social media, where parents who've had already given the kid the phone already, and they're like, well, now what do I do? So I think that it's even more challenging when it's not something you've been consistently doing. And now someone is saying, OK, now you're to have to do it.
Lauren (21:34.034)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (21:35.88)
Absolutely.
Lauren (21:37.265)
Totally.
Wilhelmina (21:44.713)
The v-
Lauren (21:45.181)
Hmm
Wilhelmina (21:50.048)
Yes.
Lauren (21:50.075)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (21:53.58)
your child is in that period of a teen where they're no longer like, okay, mom, you know, like there's resistance, like, they're in the like, I don't care what you say phase now. So I think that that makes it.
Lauren (21:59.399)
or, yeah.
Yeah, they're meant to challenge you. Yep, exactly.
Teri (22:04.337)
Right. You're having to put the toothpaste back in the tube and that's really hard. I mean, my 10-year-old goes to bed at eight o'clock almost every night without, and if it's a late night, it might be 8.30, nine o'clock. And he said to me last couple of weeks, some of my friends said they go to bed at 10 o'clock. And I was like, that can't even be true. He can't even, yeah, he can't even believe. And I was like,
Vanessa (22:08.824)
That's right.
Wilhelmina (22:19.647)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (22:25.483)
no, I have... It is true.
Lauren (22:25.893)
Teri (22:30.609)
No, I think that is true. Every family is different and every family has different schedules. My almost eight-year-old, we put him to, he's been getting up at 530 every morning. We put him to bed at 730 last night, like a little baby, and he slept until 645. It's still the sleep he gets sleep, even at that age. And I'm like, no, and if that means we have to leave parties early, if that means we leave holidays early, if that means that special occasions, we still are pretty strict adhering to that because
Lauren (22:33.2)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (22:43.854)
Yeah.
Lauren (22:45.265)
Yes, yes, it reverses. Yep, yep, yes.
Wilhelmina (22:47.403)
Sleep begets sleep. Yep, yep.
Lauren (22:52.743)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (22:59.788)
yeah.
Teri (23:00.463)
that's what their body needs. And that's the sleep requirements that most kids need. But I do, I have emphasized to my kids that everybody's different, everybody needs something different, and we'll do what's best for our family and everybody's gonna do what's best for their family. But part of it, I think, is that kids are so busy nowadays, that by the time they get home, parents are like, my gosh, we didn't even get home from practice till eight o'clock. They have to shower, they have to eat. And we, like, are they gonna go to bed right away? They need a little chill downtime.
Lauren (23:02.587)
Yep. Yeah.
Lauren (23:17.757)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (23:17.963)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (23:23.387)
It's the over scheduling.
Teri (23:29.467)
So maybe they'll go to bed at nine instead, which I get. I mean, I get that.
Wilhelmina (23:32.254)
Mm-hmm. But it goes along with some of the other topics we've talked about, which is like the overscheduling. Like, there's a reason to not overschedule your kids, and this is part of it too, because they do need that downtime. They don't need it at 8 o'clock at night, though. They need it at 5 at night. Yes. you it's not, you cannot fit it all in. We, as adults, can't fit it all in. And so why are we expecting our
Lauren (23:37.937)
Yeah.
Lauren (23:43.985)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (23:50.337)
4 o'clock? 6 o'clock? Yeah.
Vanessa (23:50.882)
All right.
Lauren (23:51.933)
Yeah.
Lauren (23:59.035)
No.
Wilhelmina (24:01.493)
kids to, yeah. you know, with my bedtime has always been hard. Like it just, even when it's you get into a rhythm and then it changes because some dynamic changes, the books they want to read change, you know, it is always evolving. But as long as you keep some routine, then you can tweak that along with it. So sometimes we'll be like, God, we're going to
Lauren (24:01.565)
It's a good way to model it. Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (24:03.131)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (24:03.224)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (24:27.593)
we're getting them to bed a little late. Like we just got into a pattern of whatever. We can tweak it back because we do have a structure. We do have a system. So we just sort of move it backwards. But you do have to establish the system to be able to tweak it and change it. And that's hard. Yeah.
Vanessa (24:29.688)
you
Lauren (24:33.351)
Hmm.
Lauren (24:42.289)
And that's hard. This might, I think, beautifully dovetail into your topic, Vanessa. I was just thinking, yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (24:44.77)
Yeah.
Vanessa (24:52.034)
Yeah, we can go into mine. Yeah, I was like, mine's another kid one. I think some of the things that we've talked about, I think, cross over. And so I sent the group in our group chat an article, and it was called Why Your Eight-Year-Old is Acting Like a Moody Teen and What to Do About It. And this was written by child psychologist Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler. And she actually has, this came from her book. So she has a book that's coming out May 6. It's called The Crucial Years.
Teri (24:54.897)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (25:06.949)
you
Wilhelmina (25:07.819)
You
Teri (25:08.273)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (25:19.244)
The Essential Guide to Mental Health and Modern Puberty in Middle Childhood. She's also the author of Mommy Burnout, which I haven't read. I don't know if any of you read it.
Lauren (25:27.889)
you know, I've heard of that. didn't realize. Okay, that was the same person. Yeah, interesting.
Wilhelmina (25:29.298)
I have two.
Teri (25:29.328)
No.
Vanessa (25:29.91)
Yeah, so the reviews looked good. Yeah, so the reviews actually looked good. Yeah, so I'm really curious now that I have a child who happens to be eight and who is also moody. I immediately saw the headline and I was like, must read this. I know. I know. was like, must read this. And so the article is talking about how parents and clinicians have been seeing more and more children.
Wilhelmina (25:38.475)
You
Teri (25:38.691)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (25:42.941)
You're like, huh, how was this fed to me in my feed?
Vanessa (25:56.276)
in what we would call middle childhood, it's the ages of six, they're saying to 12. But really she was saying how we kind of expect some of this from like 11, 12, like the tweens. It's really the six to 10, especially like the eight and nine year olds, where we're seeing a lot more kind of moodiness, defiance, and just emotional dysregulation that we typically see in teens or expect in teens. And so in the article, they talk about some reasons why that's happening. And what I also liked is she gave some really good
Lauren (25:58.354)
Yeah.
Lauren (26:05.521)
The tween, yeah.
Lauren (26:16.957)
That was later years.
Wilhelmina (26:17.195)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (26:24.142)
tips and strategies for parents, which I also really loved and I really appreciate when I'm reading an article like this and it's not just like, here, we're all doomed now, right? There's like actual like, here's some things that you can do. But I thought it was really fascinating when I read this because she brought up some things that I had been looking into, you know, just from like personal kind of things that we've been looking into. It's just making our family healthier and avoiding certain things and whatnot. We've talked about some of these things on the podcast. But what they say is that
Wilhelmina (26:30.827)
you.
Lauren (26:32.081)
Yeah, good luck.
Teri (26:33.489)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (26:53.614)
Part of this is due to the fact that kids are going through puberty earlier than they did. So it's about a year earlier than like from the 1970s. So we're seeing kids now anywhere between the ages of eight nine for girls and boys nine and 10 already going through puberty. And so with puberty comes hormonal changes, which is why we're seeing emotional behavioral changes just like in perimenopausal women, right? So like we know these things are all tied together.
Lauren (26:57.586)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (26:57.769)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (26:58.768)
Hmm.
Lauren (27:15.143)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (27:16.917)
Yeah.
Teri (27:19.887)
huh.
Lauren (27:19.997)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (27:20.096)
Thank
Vanessa (27:22.574)
And so some of the reasons why we think kids are going through puberty earlier is environmental toxins, right? And so like we've gone through this deep dive in our house of trying to get away from like plastic and you know, there's, was just reading recently about like pesticides. So we've already been like a pretty like organic trying to avoid those sort of thing family, but really being more kind of conscientious of that. Were you gonna say something?
Wilhelmina (27:46.976)
Haven't they also said it's nutrition, like kids have more nutrition, and so that's just kicking their bodies into that earlier? So it's not all that, but there is some aspect of just different nutrition that they're getting. Yeah, yes.
Lauren (27:50.642)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (28:01.686)
Yeah, so one of things they talk about too is obesity has to do with early puberty and then also increased stress. So it's not just like, so that's part of it, but they're thinking that there's all these things like increased stress, obesity, like we just, have an obesity epidemic going on, right? Because we don't eat healthy. And then these environmental toxins. So these are just a couple of things that we think. We don't know 100 % why kids are going through puberty earlier, but this is definitely part of...
Lauren (28:02.749)
Which is a good thing, theoretically.
Teri (28:05.455)
Yeah.
Teri (28:10.757)
Yeah.
Vanessa (28:28.302)
why that's happening. And then she also brought up the increased stress. And so she says in this article, she gives us an example of a client who comes in and the mom. And it's an eight-year-old client. And so she starts talking to the child and saying, what are the things that are making you stressed or worried, that sort of thing. And so the kid brings up things that we never experienced as children. And so she starts talking about the typical things like friendships. OK, we get that. Active shooter drills at school.
Lauren (28:56.903)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (28:56.907)
Mm.
Vanessa (28:58.4)
we didn't do that. We had tornado drill, right? And so, and then she starts talking about global warming. So, the teacher was telling us about hurricanes and floods, again, things that maybe we heard about as kids, but not as much. And then of course, social media comes up too. So, you know, it's these environmental things that are changing that are impacting children. And so you're getting this now change in their puberty, which is contributing to this, this kind of moodiness. And just in general, even without the kind of
Lauren (29:07.965)
issues.
Teri (29:12.55)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (29:28.204)
early puberty, we just know kids are being exposed to different things that they weren't exposed to before. are now we're seeing all these kind of like behavioral kind of changes. And then she brought up another point that I thought was just really important is that this this kind of phase in childhood is kind of forgotten. So like we focus a lot just culturally on
preschool years, early development, early intervention. We talk a lot about high school, about these things, right, Moody, and we kind of forget about these poor middle kids, right? We're like, they're fine. And this is the time in children's lives where we have the most influence as parents. They actually like us. They actually want to be with us. And so this is really an opportunity for us to really help them and prepare them for more of.
Teri (29:51.811)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (30:03.665)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (30:04.945)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (30:06.635)
Thank
Vanessa (30:14.934)
these sorts of things that are gonna come down the road when they do finally hit adolescence and are no longer wanting to talk to us and share things with us because we no longer become their kind of best friends. So I thought that was really interesting point to bring up in this conversation about this particular group of kids. And she also talks about the things that we can do as parents. And so having open communication with our children, she said even just being open to the fact that kids are going through early
puberty, like a lot of parents don't realize that. So just being open to this concept and learning more about it, having active listening with our children. So if our children are worried, having that time, like I know with Everly, at nighttime we're kind of settling down. I like to ask her, because after school asking her about her day is not a good time to ask because she's like, I don't want to talk. So when we have that of quiet down time is when we start to talk about things.
So just having whatever works for your family, that active listening, validating your children's feelings. Like, yeah, that must be hard. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, so that's the other thing she brings up is letting your kids sit with their feelings, not trying to fix all of this all the time. And so that is such a great lesson for them to learn, that, yeah, sometimes you're going to be worried.
Wilhelmina (31:19.773)
Not trying to problem solve them when you're doing that.
Teri (31:21.637)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (31:27.718)
Yeah.
Vanessa (31:38.426)
And they give the example of the active shooter of saying to them, like, yeah, that must be, now you're prepared in case there's an So being able to reframe that to them. in a way of like, yeah, this could obviously be a scary thing, but this is also making me safer. And so there's a positive aspect to this experience. And then also modeling resilience. So that was another thing that they said we can do by sharing our stories.
I know friendship has been like a big thing that's kind of come up in our house this year, which again was one of those things that I was like, why is this happening in second grade? I thought this was like a middle schooler, high schooler thing. And so we've spent a lot of time talking about it. And I shared with her, interestingly, something that happened to me in sixth grade, which a friend, I had a best friend who then just decided one day wasn't gonna be my friend anymore. And so I shared that story with her and.
Lauren (32:12.849)
Yeah.
Vanessa (32:32.334)
You know, she's asking me like, well, how did you feel and why did she do that? You know, and so we went through this whole process of sharing that and it was just like a really good conversation. So I thought this this article was really timely for myself. I don't know if you guys I know, Tara, you have an eight year old. You're the rest of you guys have kids have kind of already gone on this phase. Did you have you seen? No, no, I mean, like not eight. They're not eight, but like they're in this phase. Are you seeing this with them? Or have you seen this kind of moodiness? Like, what are your thoughts on this?
Wilhelmina (32:35.7)
Hmm.
Lauren (32:44.572)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (32:48.037)
Mm-hmm. Almost.
Lauren (32:51.677)
Well, no, ours are all in that. Yeah, right there.
Teri (32:53.839)
Yeah. Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's funny because Danny, my oldest just turned 10 and I remember when he was in second, third grade, so the age that my younger son is at now, becoming a bit more moodier, a bit more sensitive, a bit more bristly. And I was like, oof, all right, we're at the last stop before adolescence. Like I remember thinking that like soak it in. I told my husband, soak it in. Cause from here on out, they're not little kids anymore, basically. And now,
Vanessa (33:09.71)
Okay.
Teri (33:28.069)
that has sort of evened out and it was never too bad. But now my second grader who turns eight in a couple of weeks is also just a little and he runs a little feistier than his brother does anyways. He's like your classic little brother always trying to keep up. And he, you know, just again, a little more snarky and a little more pushback. And my favorite go to phrase in our household is well, two of them actually, and they're related. One is all feelings are for feeling.
Wilhelmina (33:38.027)
you
Lauren (33:48.581)
You're here.
Teri (33:57.595)
So all feelings are allowed, all feelings are valid. And then the other part that piggybacks that is all feelings are allowed, all behaviors are not allowed. So in terms of name calling, my kids are very physical, they both get physical with each other, know, etc. And so, you know, all feelings are valid, all feelings are allowed, they're all for feeling, but all behaviors are not allowed. And that's where consequences come in.
Lauren (33:57.777)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (33:57.846)
Mm-hmm. I like that.
Wilhelmina (34:06.857)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Vanessa (34:07.227)
Yeah.
Lauren (34:07.421)
Correct. You can feel that.
Teri (34:25.477)
So you're allowed to have a hard day, a hard moment, a hard week, maybe school was rough, et cetera, but taking it out on your brother or somebody else or whatever, like that's not gonna be allowed.
Lauren (34:25.682)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (34:34.125)
in
Lauren (34:37.565)
Yep. I love that.
Wilhelmina (34:38.731)
You know, I was Maddie's Girl Scout, one of the three leaders last year for her fifth grade troop. And we would go to a couple different like sleep away things that had all ages of Girl Scouts. So I was surrounded by, you know, from fifth grade, fourth grade, third grade, second grade. And it was amazing to see even the difference of
sometimes you'd see like a second grade group of girls or third grade and they were acting like teenagers. I mean, the way that they were talking, the way that they were interacting to the point that they actually were like, our group was like such a sweet group of girls. And then you have these like super snarky second and third graders. we were like, whoa, what is going on? So that's so interesting. Cause I absolutely saw that, especially when you had that all of those ages together. And
Vanessa (35:13.802)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (35:16.775)
Hmm?
Wilhelmina (35:37.804)
And I think within a class, it can actually spread. they've talked, huh, yes. So Maddie's fifth grade class all through from kindergarten on, everyone was like, this is a great class. Like every teacher who got them was like, this is a great class. And then I guess the fourth graders have like a different, or now they're the fifth graders, have a different, let's say reputation. And yes, yes. And they talk about like the fifth grade or the fourth grade girls.
Vanessa (35:41.196)
Yeah. It's gonna say cohort effect.
Lauren (35:42.841)
totally.
Teri (35:44.838)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (35:52.386)
Yeah.
Lauren (35:52.881)
Yeah.
Lauren (36:02.386)
Bye.
Wilhelmina (36:06.933)
with great girls. Really, it's huge. Yes. And it's funny how those behaviors can spread. And so, yeah, I think that's interesting.
Teri (36:07.249)
The cohorts really do matter and they're different. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (36:09.893)
It does. It's really interesting. Yeah.
Vanessa (36:09.932)
She does. I know.
Teri (36:15.761)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (36:20.61)
All right, who wants to go next?
Teri (36:22.971)
think it's me. Mine is not, well wait, did you go yet? Well, I mean, no, Okay, mine I think will be quick. So Prince William, there's a, I think the cut that's an online magazine, and this was making the rounds, I think on the internet, but basically the headline was, is Prince William hot again? So for those of us who are of our age bracket,
Lauren (36:24.41)
Okay.
Vanessa (36:24.43)
All right.
Wilhelmina (36:29.227)
don't know yet, but I... Yeah.
Vanessa (36:29.528)
No, she hasn't.
Lauren (36:31.965)
You
Lauren (36:37.085)
Uh-huh. Yep.
Lauren (36:46.749)
You
Teri (36:51.865)
when he was younger as a teen and when we were like junior high, high school, he was known as like the cute Prince for the record. I never thought he was actually cute. He's not my type, but did you, but you're allowed to it's okay. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So, but I had friends, I mean, I friends who had posters in their rooms. I mean, he was, he was in all the teen magazines. Yes.
Lauren (36:54.717)
16.
Vanessa (37:00.408)
Same. That's okay, you are allowed to. Yeah, you're just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (37:00.639)
Nor did I. Nor did I. Mm. No.
Lauren (37:02.749)
I did. He had those like, oh, totally. When he was a teenager, yes.
Wilhelmina (37:12.203)
Bye.
Wilhelmina (37:17.427)
Me too. Me too.
Vanessa (37:17.548)
Yeah, yeah. That was his reputation,
Teri (37:20.529)
Yeah, he was known. So as the years went by, bro, right, right. The brother Prince Harry was clearly the cuter brother. And when he has hair, a head of hair, he is significantly cuter. But what can you do when he was younger? When he became the cute, he was the cute brother, blah, blah, blah. So then as time's gone on, in my opinion, Prince William has become very British looking and has really owned his role.
Wilhelmina (37:23.531)
Teen, teen beat.
Vanessa (37:25.358)
Thank
Wilhelmina (37:30.731)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (37:35.591)
Stop.
Teri (37:50.509)
And whatever, but all of a sudden there is recent two things have happened because he does, in my opinion, look more attractive lately, which I didn't think was possible based on how he was looking a couple of years ago. So he looks, if you Google this, he looks dramatically different. And it's, my question to the group is, do certain men improve and become more attractive as they age?
Wilhelmina (37:52.819)
very British looking.
Vanessa (38:04.927)
You
Teri (38:17.987)
And what are those factors that contribute to that? My current working hypotheses are a beard, facial hair, behooves most men, not all, not all can pull it off, depends how it looks, what it looks like, et cetera. And putting a hat on your bald head, I think, or your partially balding head makes a huge difference. And the picture that the cut showed, you know, he was in the British military, so he had some kind of military outfit on.
Wilhelmina (38:25.513)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Lauren (38:25.627)
Yeah.
Vanessa (38:26.158)
Hmm.
Lauren (38:30.365)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (38:35.766)
I'm
Lauren (38:36.534)
Yeah.
Teri (38:47.829)
he had facial hair and he had this head thing on like a beret or something. And I was like, well, gosh darn it, he actually looks cute. Whoa. So whoever is listening, Google this. But what are your ladies thoughts about certain men, which seems so unfair, becoming more attractive as age? And what do you guys think contributes to them seeming better looking?
Lauren (38:48.007)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (38:48.296)
Ugh.
Vanessa (38:56.585)
haha
Wilhelmina (38:58.155)
You said that to us and I was like, whoa, he is hot.
Vanessa (38:59.822)
Gosh darn it.
Lauren (39:01.168)
shit.
Lauren (39:05.126)
Yeah.
Lauren (39:12.143)
Unfair.
Vanessa (39:16.398)
Well, it's so funny you say that, because Wilhelmina, actually, I was going to bring this up and it goes to your point. So Mark got into the medical show that you recommended on HBO. Yes, he's been watching it. He's like, tell Wilhelmina I love it. He's like, he's been watching on his own. But Noah Wiley, he's a perfect example. He was like the OK guy on the show before. Yeah, he was OK. And he has a full beard. That's what I said. was OK.
Lauren (39:24.71)
or the pet.
Wilhelmina (39:25.163)
Who, the pit? Yes!
Wilhelmina (39:29.62)
Yay!
yes. Yeah. Yes. You're cute, but now he is like.
Lauren (39:32.829)
Yeah, he's a good example. Yes. Yes.
Teri (39:39.249)
He was borderline okay. was borderline okay. Clooney. Yes, Clooney was the hot one.
Lauren (39:44.007)
But he was next to Clooney. He was next to Clooney. Yeah, he was next to Yes, yes. Yeah, he was next to Yeah, no, very average. Yep.
Vanessa (39:46.094)
He was okay guy. Right. He wasn't, that's what I mean. He was the okay guy. He was not the Clooney guy. Right. So, and now I was like, I saw a picture of him and I was like, oh gosh darn.
Wilhelmina (39:48.289)
yeah.
Teri (39:51.281)
Yes.
Lauren (39:58.289)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (39:59.715)
Yes! Gosh darn it!
Vanessa (40:02.37)
Gosh darn, and he just happens to have a beard. So I think there's some things to your theory that, yes, yes.
Lauren (40:04.657)
The facial hair.
Teri (40:06.875)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (40:08.575)
Yeah, I think that there are men and, you know, could be in adolescence and then young adulthood where they just look like they're awkward years, maybe even just go on a little longer. They're just what like maybe they just don't have a good sense of style. They don't really care. Then they fall. They would. OK, then you maybe get someone who then, OK, they start getting in shape. They start wearing different clothes. They grow a beard. You get these like.
subtle changes that can, then eventually you see them and you're like, whoa, they look amazing because they're wearing the right clothes. Maybe they have a hat on their head. They have the facial hair and the way they hold themselves is different. Obviously Prince, he was always holding himself with dignity because he's royal, but I'm British.
Lauren (40:53.073)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (40:58.929)
But some men actually look better totally bald than with hair. So it's sort of this weird dynamic.
Lauren (41:04.209)
Yeah, that's true.
Wilhelmina (41:04.939)
Absolutely. Absolutely. He had a very high forehead, I think. And so then the baldness did not do him like there are very attractive bald men. He was not an attractive bald man.
Teri (41:14.107)
Yes.
Teri (41:18.139)
Yes, agreed.
Lauren (41:19.047)
You know, the other thing I would say really quickly specifically to him and why I think it went from like Harry to like shifting back and forth is their characters have also shifted. And so you view him as this guy, you know, with the beard and as he's aging, who also has been incredibly supportive and saying all the right things with regard to his wife. And that's very attractive from a character standpoint, right? He's been
Vanessa (41:29.367)
And.
Wilhelmina (41:29.529)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Vanessa (41:41.068)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (41:42.767)
Hmm, 100%.
Lauren (41:45.435)
right by her side and really respected the privacy she wanted through her whole journey when we didn't know what was going on with her. Whereas Harry has like aired the family's dirty laundry and that's gross. Like regardless of what you think of the family, it's gross. Yeah, exactly. And that's attractive. So if you combine sort of a character personality trait along with like, and the beard looks good on him and a hat looks good on him. I think that really kind of upped his ante there.
Wilhelmina (41:54.579)
Yes, I agree.
Teri (41:55.715)
And he's taken, he's taken the higher road. Yes.
Vanessa (41:59.886)
Yeah, I was. Yeah.
Teri (42:02.278)
Yes.
Vanessa (42:12.856)
Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, I was gonna say confidence. Like, so, you know, will let me know what you're talking about. Like somebody's figured out like what, how they're dressed, like, you know, probably a wife or girlfriend help them with that, right? You know, okay, some of our husbands have learned, right? But like the confidence that comes along with that of looking in the mirror and be like,
Teri (42:13.061)
The personality traits, yeah.
Wilhelmina (42:13.139)
I agree with that
Lauren (42:16.55)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (42:17.055)
Yes, that's
Wilhelmina (42:24.093)
huh, huh, huh.
Lauren (42:24.701)
you
Teri (42:25.489)
Unless it's my husband who continues to wear whatever the hell he wants. I try. Yeah.
Lauren (42:33.341)
you
Wilhelmina (42:34.387)
you
Vanessa (42:39.246)
Okay. I also think this is something we've talked about a little bit about like societal, like, you know, there's a difference between we've talked about this. I was like, where's the mom bod? Like everyone likes to talk about the dad bod. Like, where's the mom bod? So I think some of that has to also do with, you know, salt and pepper on a man is, you know, attract like that looks that's attractive, you know. And so I think that also could play a role in why some men as they get older seem to be more kind of attractive. Even like, yeah, like even like
Teri (42:48.049)
Mmm.
Wilhelmina (42:48.096)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (42:50.769)
There's definitely that.
Wilhelmina (42:55.947)
attractive.
Lauren (42:56.443)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (43:04.615)
Yeah. Yeah. That's how we label it.
Vanessa (43:09.548)
I mean, I always thought he was kind of cute, but like in a weird way, like McDreamy, what's his name? yeah, like I always like a quirky, but he was almost like a quirky cue. Like he was like a quirky cue. And like now, like I've seen pictures of him and like he's just like fine wine. Just, I mean, it just keeps getting better, right? Like, so there's another example of, you know, things just getting better over time. Yes.
Lauren (43:14.4)
Wilhelmina (43:14.419)
I always thought he was cute, but you're right. He was cute and now he's hot.
Teri (43:21.478)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (43:21.775)
yeah.
Wilhelmina (43:24.605)
hot. Yes, fine wine indeed.
Lauren (43:29.757)
sorry.
It's just not fair. Willamina, bring us home. Yes.
Teri (43:33.413)
Yes.
It's just not fair.
Wilhelmina (43:40.044)
Okay, so I wanted to talk a little bit about Katy Perry. I feel like everyone's talking about Katy Perry these days. when this happened, when she went up in space with these all female, oh my God, I just can't even say it with a straight face. And the video clips of her, oh, now you're an astronaut. Oh, I suppose I, no, you're not.
Vanessa (43:40.078)
my goodness. Okay.
Lauren (43:47.962)
Yeah...
Vanessa (43:49.006)
Yeah.
Teri (43:58.638)
Sorry, Sounds so stupid.
Wilhelmina (44:09.461)
You're not an astronaut, okay? You're a rich musician who got a flight. And I felt, musician, fair point, fair point, fair point. And I, and she's of course gotten tons of backlash. And so there's been a lot of like, did she deserve the backlash? And of course I,
Vanessa (44:09.55)
Hahaha!
Lauren (44:09.552)
Never.
Lauren (44:15.901)
musician, I don't... Yeah.
Teri (44:18.937)
Yeah, that's being generous. Musician is being generous. Yeah.
Vanessa (44:21.038)
you
Wilhelmina (44:36.299)
completely think she deserved all of the backlash because I think the entire thing was ridiculous. think her even implying she's an astronaut is ridiculous. Her kissing the ground and then like, super connected to love. What does love have to do with you going into space? I don't know. Them calling it this like feminist thing. was like, I would have, if you had like,
Lauren (44:50.257)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (44:56.462)
Thanks
Wilhelmina (45:02.055)
A group of scientists and a group of actual astronauts and scientists going into space, all female, great. A group of Gayle King and Katy Perry and celebrities, yes. I'm like, that's not, I read somewhere that was like, this was tourism mismasquerading as feminism. I was like, yes.
Vanessa (45:11.886)
Celebrity.
Lauren (45:21.405)
That's so funny.
Teri (45:22.809)
It sounds like a publicity stunt. Yeah, 100%. And I had not, I know, I had not heard or seen it until you texted it to us today. So then I dove in just before we recorded today. She though, even before all that, I have felt that she has a very histrionic flair, high attention seeking and not in an unlikable way.
Wilhelmina (45:26.219)
That's what it was. Don't call this feminism. Like this is not feminism.
Lauren (45:39.738)
Uh-huh.
Wilhelmina (45:44.169)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Teri (45:51.269)
So there are individuals out there who are histrionic, they thrive when the spotlight is on them. They might sound a little gamey and sort of attention seeking in their mannerisms and their language. And some of those personality types are fun. They're engaging and they're fun to be around. But some of them are not. they don't have, there's a quality about her that it's a bad combo that she's histrionic and not.
Lauren (46:10.683)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelmina (46:15.135)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (46:21.029)
very likable. There's something about. Yes.
Lauren (46:22.469)
It feels like they're trying too hard. Those like trying too hard.
Wilhelmina (46:24.831)
Like Taylor Swift would be someone that she likes the spotlight, she likes it, but she does it in a likable way. Whereas Katy Perry is like, you're trying to be this, but you're not hitting the mark.
Teri (46:31.727)
Yes. Yes.
Teri (46:36.368)
Yes.
Lauren (46:36.647)
You know, it kind of reminds me of our last pop culture roundup when I spoke about Meghan Markle. And it was like, there's just something about them where they're trying too hard. You know, she's the one that has gotten the most negative press from this. Where there were other, like Gail King and Bezos, Lauren Sanchez, but they were fairly quiet in their approach to this. And she just wasn't, and it gave off trying too hard. And then she just like kept going. And it was...
Wilhelmina (46:42.185)
Yes.
Vanessa (46:42.232)
Mm.
Wilhelmina (46:46.645)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (46:50.837)
Yes. Bezos' fiance, yep.
Wilhelmina (47:04.245)
Yes.
Teri (47:04.451)
Mm-hmm. And I think it's the inauthenticity. And I think when people are inauthentic, it really rubs us the wrong way.
Lauren (47:06.513)
getting worse.
Wilhelmina (47:09.749)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (47:10.589)
That's what it does.
Wilhelmina (47:12.256)
Yes.
Lauren (47:14.149)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (47:14.633)
And it was totally tone deaf to like, is going on in our country right now? And like, why? Really? Like, I don't know. And she kept being like, it was my dream. I was like, you are, you have made billions of dollars. You have toured, you're a celebrity. And this was like, my God. Like, seriously, this was the dream? Like not becoming a popular rock star or pop star? Like, that's not a dream. That was just like, that just happened.
Lauren (47:24.733)
You
Wilhelmina (47:43.775)
I don't know, I was just like.
Teri (47:46.514)
She was, she was, yeah.
Vanessa (47:46.83)
Yeah, What's I'm gonna say, like just to play devil's advocate, like I'm not saying any of this is not true, but I do like sometimes feel bad, especially like as pop stars get older. I mean, she's been around for a while. Like, I think it's really hard to stay relevant. I think it's really hard to stay relevant. And I think sometimes some of this stuff is like you said, like trying and it doesn't come off right, but like trying to stay relevant when, you know, and I think.
Wilhelmina (47:47.231)
GET OFF THE STAGE!
Lauren (47:58.33)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (47:59.665)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (48:01.117)
They don't seem to know what to do with themselves.
Wilhelmina (48:03.263)
Absolutely.
Teri (48:04.912)
Yes.
Lauren (48:08.817)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Vanessa (48:14.828)
And I think social media played a big role. Like if you think about like the Madonnas when we were growing up, like there was no social, like there wasn't any of this, like it was easy to be who you were because, like there was only, you know, you turn on the radio and that's how I knew about you. watched MTV there. I think it's, you know, so I think that's contributing to a lot of the things that we're seeing is like people are just competing to be like relevant, relevant. And then especially as you get older in the industry, I think it becomes harder because we've talked about this too, that, you know,
Lauren (48:16.721)
Yes.
Lauren (48:27.292)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (48:28.095)
Yes.
Vanessa (48:44.044)
we do not view women the same way as they age, right? Like we're onto the next pop star, whatever. So I think that that plays a role. And again, I'm not saying that excuses behavior or anything, but I kind of feel bad because...
Lauren (48:57.511)
Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (49:00.687)
I think that's a valid point. When I saw the article Wilhelmina sent us, it named her hit, I Kissed a Girl Whatever, 2010 or 2009, and I was like, yes. And I had the same thought, Vanessa. I'm like, she is trying so hard. And I do think it's hard, and it's their livelihood, and I think they are so used to a certain level of attention and spotlight. Yes.
Lauren (49:10.724)
my gosh. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (49:12.308)
Yeah.
Vanessa (49:15.319)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (49:15.573)
so hard.
Wilhelmina (49:22.347)
Yes.
Lauren (49:22.429)
was gonna say they don't know what to do when they fail. They don't know how to handle that. It's like they haven't reached that level of problem solving. And so they just like keep like spinning their wheels in a way that makes them very unlikable.
Vanessa (49:22.572)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (49:33.475)
Matt Damon's brother, think, or maybe it was Matt Damon. Matt Damon, think either said himself or his brother said, one thing I've noticed about Hollywood is whatever age you're at when you hit it big, that is where you stay stalled at developmentally. Yeah, and we've talked about that. Yes. So, yeah.
Lauren (49:45.317)
Yes, we've talked. Yes, we've talked about that a little bit. Yes, yes, yes, we've talked about this. Yeah, they get, they just, they get stuck. Yeah. And she wasn't, I mean, she was younger or she wasn't like a teenager, Katy Perry. She was probably early twenties, but still it's like, they don't know what to do when it doesn't go in the direction they thought it was. They don't know how to pivot. Yeah.
Vanessa (49:47.032)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (49:48.619)
we've talked about this. Yes. Yes. Because we talked about it with like Justin Bieber hitting it so young.
Wilhelmina (50:01.138)
Yeah, probably 20s, 20s.
Teri (50:01.157)
No, I don't think so. think she was probably in her 20s maybe, early 20s.
Vanessa (50:03.682)
And, good night.
Vanessa (50:08.238)
Yeah. And she started off as a Christian singer, if I recall correctly. She was like a Christian singer and made the pop star transition. yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, the whole... I actually thought it was a joke that they went to the... I was like, is this a joke? Yeah, like, seriously. I was like, that's not real, right? I know. I literally was like, that can't be real.
Teri (50:11.833)
I think she was. Yes.
Lauren (50:15.399)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (50:23.049)
Yeah.
Lauren (50:26.717)
Yeah, like April Fool's, right? Right.
Lauren (50:32.485)
No, yeah.
Wilhelmina (50:34.207)
Well, and.
Teri (50:36.241)
There's a lot of little boys who have specialized interests in NASA and space who would probably would have appreciated that flight much more than she did. Yes. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (50:43.113)
right as opposed to than Katy Perry. Yeah. Yeah. And
Lauren (50:44.785)
Right?
You just want to tell them to like take a step back and take a beat.
Teri (50:50.747)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (50:50.749)
Right. And here's the thing, I think about huge musicians. So let's just stay with the music industry. You've gotten these rock stars that are still huge. And I feel like they're not always in the spotlight. And they can kind of go away and come back. And they kind of just have confidence that they can weather that up and down. So I'm like,
Lauren (51:13.659)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (51:15.231)
Maybe you don't need to be like grasping at straws for the next, like she wants to be Katy Perry of like 20 year old Katy Perry for the rest of her life. And I'm like, you might need to evolve. Yes, you might need to evolve, but it doesn't mean going up in space to, that's not, that's not the evolution we're looking for. No one's wanting that evolution, clearly.
Lauren (51:22.299)
Yeah, she doesn't know how to transition.
Teri (51:22.757)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (51:26.606)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (51:30.749)
Right,
Teri (51:35.227)
Right. I know. I know.
Vanessa (51:39.726)
All right, ladies, any last thoughts on any of our topics from today? Well, this is fun. So if you like this style of just for the podcast, we really enjoy doing this. We're going to keep doing it. But if you really liked it, let us know. Let us know your thoughts. You can send us a message on Instagram. And if you have any topics or articles or anything you want us to discuss, please send it to us. We love to hear from you and would be happy to talk about a topic that you send us.
Lauren (51:43.965)
I don't think so. We covered it. Yeah.
Teri (51:44.465)
No, I guess good.
Lauren (52:00.163)
I love that.
Vanessa (52:07.079)
Well, thank you for joining us today. We hope you join us next time on The Shrinkdown.