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“Over-managing anything invariably backfires,” says Kathryn. “I forgot that my dog already knew what to do.”
At some point in our lives we all get scared – of making the wrong decision, of not being a good parent, or that everyone will figure out we’re just making it up as we go.
I’ve spent years helping leaders work through fear, stress, and uncertainty. Now I’m making a podcast about how they face their fears and come out stronger.
It’s for founders, leaders, and business owners who feel like they’re constantly fighting uphill and not finding the balance they need to be effective at work and present at home.
00:00:00 Sally-Anne:
What if life were simply a series of different adventures we say yes to?
00:00:05 Sally-Anne:
Because often the most rewarding experiences are the ones we don't plan.
00:00:11 Sally-Anne:
I'm Sally Ann Ary and welcome to Fearless Forward, the podcast that asks leaders how they face their fears.
00:00:19 Sally-Anne:
Today I'm in conversation with an international marketing leader whose scope of experience ranges from Fortune 500 companies to startups across a multitude of sectors and technologies.
00:00:30 Sally-Anne:
But Kathryn: also has a rich and varied life outside work.
00:00:35 Sally-Anne:
Family, sport and fitness are a big part of that and so is volunteering.
00:00:41 Sally-Anne:
most recently with Essex Search and Rescue, where for the past couple of years she's trained with her Labrador Bailey to join a team that supports the local police in searches for vulnerable missing people.
00:00:53 Sally-Anne:
Our conversation turns to the role of fear in different circumstances, how it shows up in high visibility roles, new endeavours and in periods of transition, and what she's learning from it about herself.
00:01:08 Sally-Anne:
There are insights here for us all.
00:01:15 Sally-Anne:
Kathryn:, we've known each other a long time and you're a career woman.
00:01:20 Sally-Anne:
And when you look back, do you feel that was the right choice for you?
00:01:25 Kathryn:
Oh, that's a very good question.
00:01:28 Kathryn:
I think at different points in my life, I might have had a different answer, but absolutely yes, for me,
00:01:38 Kathryn:
that has been the right choice.
00:01:39 Kathryn:
I have loved my career and what it has brought to me in terms of places I've been, experiences I've had, people I've met.
00:01:49 Kathryn:
I have really, and I still am, really enjoying it.
00:01:53 Sally-Anne:
And is it a 100% upside or are there aspects of it that are sometimes difficult?
00:02:00 Kathryn:
Oh, definitely.
00:02:01 Kathryn:
I think there are sacrifices
00:02:03 Kathryn:
that I probably made along the way without even perhaps realizing that they were sacrifices or that they might have an impact or I might think about them differently later on.
00:02:14 Kathryn:
And one of those is around having a family.
00:02:18 Kathryn:
It wasn't a conscious decision not to have a family, but my career took first place and I left it a little late and then it wasn't possible.
00:02:30 Kathryn:
So, and at the time that was devastating.
00:02:34 Kathryn:
Later on, just got on with it.
00:02:37 Kathryn:
And then later on again, after my second parent had passed away, you think to yourself, oh, I feel very lonely.
00:02:47 Kathryn:
This suddenly feels a lonely, even though I have three sisters and seven nephews and nieces and lots of great friends and community.
00:02:57 Kathryn:
But yes, there are sacrifices that got made along the way.
00:03:00 Kathryn:
I lived away from my family a long way away for a very long time, but I thought it was a great adventure and was lucky enough to be able to come back to the UK at a time when it felt right.
00:03:10 Kathryn:
So that was very fortunate.
00:03:12 Kathryn:
But I think by and large though,
00:03:15 Kathryn:
For me, it's been a really exciting adventure and continues to be an exciting adventure.
00:03:20 Kathryn:
And I've just met amazing people.
00:03:22 Kathryn:
But yes, there have been really times when I've gone, what have I done?
00:03:26 Kathryn:
There were times like that.
00:03:27 Kathryn:
Yes.
00:03:29 Kathryn:
I think Sally-Anne, you'll remember some of the conversations we've had over the years, talking about that sort of fearlessness and embracing what you have and sitting with what you have and really listening to yourself.
00:03:43 Kathryn:
And I think part of that was like, I could sit and be remorseful and have regrets, or I can sit with what I have, which I'm very, very grateful for everything that I have in my life.
00:03:54 Kathryn:
and look at all the wonderful things that come out of that and really embrace that.
00:03:58 Kathryn:
So spend more time with family, make arrangements to go on holiday, see the nephews and nieces more often, get to know their lives better, be more involved in their lives.
00:04:10 Kathryn:
I think that really being so grateful for everything you do have and seeing it as a new adventure and a new opportunity, really.
00:04:22 Kathryn:
A lot of people always ask me, so how did you decide and manage your career?
00:04:26 Kathryn:
particularly around career, we talk about careers and things like that, how did you get to the position you're in and what did you do?
00:04:32 Kathryn:
And I would say I didn't orchestrate any of it particularly.
00:04:35 Kathryn:
It wasn't planned, it was...
00:04:37 Kathryn:
subconscious, I always went where I saw opportunity, where I saw growth, where I saw people that I like to work with, exciting businesses that I wanted to be part of.
00:04:49 Kathryn:
And it was always from a business perspective about growth.
00:04:52 Kathryn:
And I think that has also translated over into personal growth.
00:04:58 Kathryn:
And obviously, all of the work that we've done with skillful leaders has been a huge part of that.
00:05:03 Kathryn:
I sought that out.
00:05:05 Kathryn:
And I think that
00:05:07 Kathryn:
It's not just about what I do in business and growing businesses and helping businesses to grow, but how am I growing, not just as a leader in business, but also personally.
00:05:15 Kathryn:
And I think that's been massive.
00:05:17 Kathryn:
And I think I've probably done more growth personally in the last, well, I don't know what sort of 10 years maybe than I did in all of the years before that.
00:05:27 Kathryn:
I feel like that's been the biggest piece because of all these realizations and I think that come with getting
00:05:34 Kathryn:
older, having massive changes in your life, at least for me, things have probably been very easy prior to that, relatively easy and fortunate circumstances.
00:05:46 Kathryn:
But definitely in the last 10 years, that focus on personal growth is what has made me or helped me to really appreciate where I am today and how I can really embrace
00:06:01 Kathryn:
what's around me, where I am in this moment in time, without worrying too much about what were the decisions I made in the bus.
00:06:09 Kathryn:
They're made, they're done.
00:06:10 Sally-Anne:
Yes.
00:06:11 Kathryn:
I doesn't mean to say you don't sometimes lie awake at night or have odd moments for sure where you think, oh, what if?
00:06:19 Kathryn:
But like my mum and dad, what we said, don't have any regrets.
00:06:24 Kathryn:
And I think
00:06:25 Kathryn:
as much about embracing what's in front of you, what's here and now, than it is about thinking back and thinking, oh, shoulda, coulda, woulda.
00:06:34 Kathryn:
It doesn't serve you well at all.
00:06:37 Kathryn:
Oh, I haven't found it served me well.
00:06:40 Sally-Anne:
Yeah.
00:06:40 Sally-Anne:
Tricky one, isn't it?
00:06:41 Sally-Anne:
Because we have a lived experience.
00:06:44 Sally-Anne:
We could decide not to look back at all, but it'd almost be a shame, wouldn't it?
00:06:50 Sally-Anne:
We could decide just to pick the good bits, but what about the not so good bits that might be teaching us something?
00:06:56 Sally-Anne:
What I'm hearing is that you've been through an experience, perhaps just what happens in the cycle of life, we become more reflective, we start to take stock, we pause, and you've done that over the last 10 years and you've made conscious decisions.
00:07:13 Sally-Anne:
I've also heard the word adventure a couple of times.
00:07:16 Kathryn:
Absolutely.
00:07:18 Kathryn:
I use it a lot.
00:07:19 Kathryn:
I'll say, okay, I even notice when someone is moving or changing jobs, I'll always wish them best of luck with the next adventure in your life or your next adventurous chapter.
00:07:28 Kathryn:
I think there's adventure in everything.
00:07:31 Kathryn:
When you walk out the door in the morning, and I walk the dog every morning and you walk out the door, you never know who you're going to bump in today, who you're going to say hello to, what you might experience while you're out.
00:07:43 Kathryn:
And I think I like to find adventure
00:07:46 Kathryn:
and everything because life is an adventure, at least that's how I've approached it.
00:07:51 Kathryn:
I mean, when I was younger, I said yes to everything.
00:07:53 Kathryn:
Oh yes, I can do that.
00:07:54 Kathryn:
Oh yes, I'll do this.
00:07:55 Kathryn:
And I think that helped me in my career.
00:07:57 Kathryn:
Somebody once asked me like, what's the best advice?
00:08:00 Kathryn:
I could give them about advancing their career.
00:08:02 Kathryn:
And I said, talk to lots of people, meet lots of people.
00:08:05 Kathryn:
You can meet in person again now.
00:08:07 Kathryn:
People are back out, networking properly, having that coffee, going to a roundtable, even if it's not great at the time or it wasn't quite for you, but go out and try it and say yes.
00:08:17 Kathryn:
Someone said, do you want to have a go at this or do you want to come and experience this?
00:08:20 Kathryn:
Say yes.
00:08:21 Kathryn:
I've had conversations with a lot of people, particularly people younger in their career or earlier in their career, who said,
00:08:29 Kathryn:
I don't know if I should go for this role or I don't.
00:08:31 Kathryn:
I think statistically they've shown, haven't they, that women will tend to say, I don't meet all the criteria for this role.
00:08:37 Kathryn:
Whereas men will typically be like, yeah, I can do that.
00:08:40 Kathryn:
And I'm not sure, that's a bit of a stereotype, and I hate to see stereotypes, but it is about go for it.
00:08:47 Kathryn:
Admit like there's bits that you're really strong at, maybe there's bits you're not so strong at.
00:08:50 Kathryn:
Nobody is going to know everything.
00:08:52 Kathryn:
Nobody's going to be 100% ready for that next role, whether it's motherhood, whether it's suddenly becoming a carer for a parent, whether it's the next role in their career, whether it's getting a position on the football team or position in the boat in row, you're never going to be quite ready for it, but you're going to get in there and then you're going to.
00:09:10 Kathryn:
get better and improve and go from there.
00:09:12 Kathryn:
So it's, I think, saying yes to things, which I have found as I got older, a bit harder, because you suddenly have all this knowledge and realise, yeah, that might be a bit dangerous or that might come with some risk that I should evaluate better.
00:09:28 Kathryn:
But I think that, yeah, it's life.
00:09:31 Kathryn:
What an amazing gift and certainly an adventure.
00:09:34 Kathryn:
Sometimes it's an adventure that's a bit of a roller coaster.
00:09:37 Kathryn:
And for everyone, it's different, isn't it?
00:09:39 Kathryn:
But for me, I definitely try to find the adventure in everything I'm doing.
00:09:44 Sally-Anne:
And has there ever been a moment when, poised to do something new or considering doing something new, you've experienced a little bit of fear that you've had to overcome?
00:09:55 Sally-Anne:
Can you think of a time when it wasn't as straightforward yet?
00:10:00 Kathryn:
Do you know, it's not so much for something new, but all of a sudden, and I speak
00:10:06 Kathryn:
to other friends and family, particularly women who are a certain age going through perimenopause and menopause in particular, where a certain set of anxiety sets in that you haven't maybe had before or experienced before.
00:10:21 Kathryn:
So for me, I found it with things that I used to do all the time, like rowing in a single.
00:10:27 Kathryn:
All of a sudden, I'm like, oh, I don't know.
00:10:28 Kathryn:
I'm going to capsize.
00:10:30 Kathryn:
There was no evidence of this whatsoever.
00:10:33 Kathryn:
And yet all of a sudden, it would become this sort of, oh, I don't know.
00:10:36 Kathryn:
I'm not sure about it.
00:10:37 Kathryn:
And it would surprise me that I was suddenly fearful about something.
00:10:42 Kathryn:
The most surprising one was going to do a national assessment with my dog Bailey, who is training to be a search and rescue dog for finding vulnerable missing people.
00:10:54 Kathryn:
and being the most nervous I have ever been in my entire life.
00:10:58 Kathryn:
I could stand up in thousands of people.
00:11:00 Kathryn:
I've done radio shows, TV shows, live TV with children involved and nothing was as terrifying or anxious inducing as this.
00:11:10 Kathryn:
My stomach was in knots.
00:11:11 Kathryn:
The dog could feel my anxiety.
00:11:14 Kathryn:
I was really, and I kept saying, I can't believe I'm so nervous.
00:11:17 Kathryn:
I can't believe I'm so nervous.
00:11:18 Kathryn:
And it really took me by surprise because I had been training with the dog
00:11:23 Kathryn:
for two years for this.
00:11:25 Kathryn:
So it wasn't like it was something completely new and all of a sudden the fear, the anxiety was overwhelming and I didn't see it coming.
00:11:34 Kathryn:
I didn't expect it at all.
00:11:36 Kathryn:
It was very surprising.
00:11:37 Kathryn:
Very, very surprising indeed.
00:11:39 Sally-Anne:
How interesting.
00:11:40 Sally-Anne:
So 2 years of intensive training with your dog, I mean, that's extraordinary in and of itself.
00:11:45 Sally-Anne:
What a thing to do.
00:11:47 Sally-Anne:
I want to say what a marvellous thing to do.
00:11:48 Sally-Anne:
I expect there were moments when it was pretty tough.
00:11:50 Sally-Anne:
But what an incredible, courageous and wonderful thing to do with your dog for such a good purpose.
00:11:56 Sally-Anne:
I'm wondering, when it came to that moment of the assessment, I'm imagining the stakes felt very high, did they?
00:12:03 Kathryn:
I was afraid of failure, one.
00:12:06 Kathryn:
So there was definitely that.
00:12:08 Kathryn:
And that is something I don't like to fail.
00:12:10 Kathryn:
to think that I'm going to achieve whatever it is I'm doing.
00:12:14 Kathryn:
And it's not entirely in my control, right?
00:12:16 Kathryn:
There's a four-legged furry creature who has a mind of his own if he wants to.
00:12:22 Kathryn:
And it's the two of you together.
00:12:25 Kathryn:
We didn't pass our assessment.
00:12:27 Kathryn:
I think 50% of the dogs that went on that day passed.
00:12:30 Kathryn:
So it's quite common not to pass first time, but I didn't know that at the time.
00:12:36 Kathryn:
I should have trusted her a bit more actually.
00:12:38 Kathryn:
A lot of learnings out of it.
00:12:39 Kathryn:
So we got really good learnings.
00:12:41 Kathryn:
There was things that while we'd done really well in our mocks to even get to assessment and pass the mocks first, we just didn't bring it on the day.
00:12:48 Kathryn:
And it's just that moment in time.
00:12:50 Kathryn:
And I think what it was is 2 years.
00:12:53 Kathryn:
of training.
00:12:55 Kathryn:
You're training on one evening a week, one night in the week, and then you're training on Sundays, week after week after week.
00:13:02 Kathryn:
And you think, God, I've been doing this for such a long time.
00:13:05 Kathryn:
And now here it is.
00:13:06 Kathryn:
And it just felt like everything was riding on that one moment in time, which it is for the assessment.
00:13:12 Kathryn:
But at the same time,
00:13:15 Kathryn:
I never experienced nervousness like that.
00:13:17 Kathryn:
And we will go back to do reassessment.
00:13:19 Kathryn:
And I'm hoping that having done it once, it might not be as bad next time, but I'm not sure.
00:13:24 Kathryn:
But you've got to do it.
00:13:25 Kathryn:
I've sort of said, at one point, I thought, I can't put myself through this again.
00:13:28 Kathryn:
This is crazy.
00:13:29 Kathryn:
Why would I do this?
00:13:30 Kathryn:
But the fact that we train so hard, that he can do it, I can do it, the dog can do it.
00:13:35 Kathryn:
It's about getting it right on the day in those circumstances.
00:13:38 Kathryn:
And the assessment is not very real lifelike.
00:13:42 Kathryn:
It's more intense than it would be in real life, perhaps, just because of what you have to do in a very short period of time.
00:13:50 Kathryn:
It was surprising.
00:13:52 Sally-Anne:
And if I may, I mean stepping back from that, deeply curious about that surprise, it took you by surprise.
00:13:59 Sally-Anne:
You also used the word trust.
00:14:01 Sally-Anne:
I think you said something like, I should have trusted Bailey more.
00:14:04 Sally-Anne:
Can you tell us a bit more about that?
00:14:06 Kathryn:
Yeah, it's a little bit hard to describe without knowing what an air scenting dog does.
00:14:11 Kathryn:
So in this particular case, Bailey is trained to find any human, not a particular human in general.
00:14:18 Kathryn:
So we'll look for a human scent in a situation where you would be following a specific path or route in woodland, parkland, lowland areas, and they search up to about 30 meters off the path.
00:14:30 Kathryn:
And for assessment, it's two kilometers, that path, you have to find up to four people, four missing people who have hidden for the dog in under an hour.
00:14:39 Kathryn:
And in my nervous state, I micromanage the search for the dog in the beginning.
00:14:46 Kathryn:
And my dog supports Sarah, who has worked with us a lot.
00:14:49 Kathryn:
We worked together a lot.
00:14:51 Kathryn:
Even she said, of course, that was painful.
00:14:55 Kathryn:
And at the end I went, I know, and I couldn't stop myself from doing it because I was so anxious.
00:15:01 Kathryn:
And the dog was really like, you want me to do what?
00:15:03 Kathryn:
Like, I know what I'm doing.
00:15:05 Kathryn:
And I couldn't help myself.
00:15:06 Kathryn:
I was so anxious that I overcompensated, which was one of the things that we didn't do so well on.
00:15:14 Kathryn:
Yes, lesson learned.
00:15:15 Kathryn:
But it was out of anxiety.
00:15:17 Kathryn:
But even I knew I was doing it at the time thinking, I can't stop.
00:15:20 Kathryn:
I can't stop doing this.
00:15:22 Kathryn:
Why am I doing this?
00:15:25 Kathryn:
It was just awful.
00:15:26 Kathryn:
Yeah, it wasn't good.
00:15:28 Sally-Anne:
So next time round, let's assume for a moment, if I may, that you feel just as anxious.
00:15:34 Sally-Anne:
You may not, but let's just for a moment take you back to that feeling of anxiety.
00:15:39 Sally-Anne:
And knowing what you know now, what might you do differently?
00:15:42 Kathryn:
Well, this is a very good question because I've asked myself this quite a few times now.
00:15:47 Kathryn:
How will I manage this going forward?
00:15:49 Kathryn:
And I think, one, I will probably make sure I try to get more sleep the week before.
00:15:55 Kathryn:
Two, really try to lean into it in a different way and really consciously tell myself, trust the dog, let the dog do what he does, he knows what he's doing, go with it and don't overmanage it.
00:16:12 Kathryn:
even if you really want to, how successful that will be.
00:16:18 Kathryn:
I think part of what I'm thinking about now in training is trying to really do that in training so that it
00:16:24 Kathryn:
which is the purpose of all the training that we do, right?
00:16:27 Kathryn:
It's in anything you train for that moment of when you give your presentation, you practice it when you're racing.
00:16:35 Kathryn:
So as a competitive rower, you train, you prepare.
00:16:38 Kathryn:
And I think it's about not just preparing the physical aspect of being able to do the search and obviously the mental piece in terms of searching for someone, but now training myself mentally to think about
00:16:54 Kathryn:
let go, let the dog do what he needs to do, don't micromanage it.
00:16:58 Kathryn:
So I think it's about training for it.
00:17:01 Kathryn:
And I probably had not thought about that or trained for that aspect in my training prior because I hadn't had that set of anxiety.
00:17:11 Kathryn:
So I think it's about preparing for it.
00:17:14 Sally-Anne:
And you are physically strong, fit.
00:17:18 Sally-Anne:
Bailey knows
00:17:19 Sally-Anne:
what she's doing.
00:17:20 Sally-Anne:
So this is about training your mind, isn't it?
00:17:23 Sally-Anne:
The mental training, as you put it.
00:17:25 Sally-Anne:
So letting go, trusting, and so on.
00:17:28 Sally-Anne:
And I suppose the time to fail is in the practice, right?
00:17:31 Sally-Anne:
Lots of failure, please, so I know what it feels like.
00:17:34 Kathryn:
I think that is a really valid point.
00:17:38 Kathryn:
Bailey's really good.
00:17:39 Kathryn:
He doesn't know the difference between failure or no failure.
00:17:41 Kathryn:
For him, it's all a great game and this is all really super fun and he's working really hard.
00:17:46 Kathryn:
So to him, it's not about failure or not failure.
00:17:48 Kathryn:
He's just getting on with it.
00:17:49 Kathryn:
And we do it again and again.
00:17:51 Kathryn:
And when I think about where you start with a dog on this process,
00:17:56 Kathryn:
and how you teach them and train them and how much they learn, some of it seems to be quite instinctive.
00:18:03 Kathryn:
It's sort of inherent in the dog itself, the type of dog.
00:18:06 Kathryn:
Sometimes it's amazing to me to get to a point you go, oh my gosh, we just did that.
00:18:10 Kathryn:
And many times people say, how do you start with a dog?
00:18:12 Kathryn:
Well, you start with very small steps.
00:18:15 Kathryn:
It's all about a game to start with.
00:18:16 Kathryn:
And then you gradually build on, build on, build on.
00:18:18 Kathryn:
And sometimes you go out and go, God, that was a terrible day.
00:18:21 Kathryn:
I did badly.
00:18:23 Kathryn:
The dog did badly.
00:18:24 Kathryn:
We messed up this.
00:18:25 Kathryn:
We didn't find
00:18:26 Kathryn:
anyone, but the stakes aren't high in those training sessions.
00:18:30 Kathryn:
So I think it is about training for it.
00:18:33 Kathryn:
It is about embracing every time you fail and learning for it.
00:18:36 Kathryn:
And you do do that.
00:18:37 Kathryn:
That's very much the training.
00:18:39 Kathryn:
You learn a lot.
00:18:39 Kathryn:
There's lots of times you go, God, that didn't work.
00:18:41 Kathryn:
What do we do?
00:18:42 Kathryn:
We take a step back.
00:18:43 Kathryn:
We'll try something different.
00:18:45 Kathryn:
Because dogs respond very differently.
00:18:46 Kathryn:
They're not machines.
00:18:48 Kathryn:
They have their own will.
00:18:50 Kathryn:
You never know when suddenly deer appear in the middle of the woods and what will the dog do?
00:18:54 Kathryn:
Or how do they respond?
00:18:56 Kathryn:
expect that.
00:18:56 Kathryn:
So how do we deal with it?
00:18:58 Kathryn:
How do we train for it in the future?
00:18:59 Kathryn:
And I suppose we don't see it as failure.
00:19:01 Kathryn:
It's seen as learning.
00:19:03 Kathryn:
Yes.
00:19:04 Kathryn:
So it's reframing it, isn't it, from anything really.
00:19:08 Kathryn:
You think about in your career, you think about any time you're applying for jobs, you don't win a race, you enter something, but do we look at it as failure or do we look at it as it's a learning?
00:19:19 Kathryn:
Yes.
00:19:21 Kathryn:
And we can grow from that.
00:19:23 Kathryn:
And I think that comes back down to, doesn't it, sort of the idea about growth versus a fixed mindset.
00:19:29 Kathryn:
If you continue to learn, you continue to grow out of the times that you fail.
00:19:34 Kathryn:
And I think the more you fail, it's a funny word, isn't it?
00:19:40 Kathryn:
The more you're going to learn.
00:19:42 Sally-Anne:
Well, there's certainly the potential to learn, isn't there, if you can look at it that way.
00:19:46 Kathryn:
Yes.
00:19:47 Kathryn:
Definitely.
00:19:48 Sally-Anne:
I'm wondering if on the day you were so afraid of failing, which is I think what I heard you say at the beginning, that you tried to control the success.
00:19:58 Kathryn:
Oh, without a doubt, the poor dog was like, you're telling me to do, I know what I'm doing.
00:20:03 Kathryn:
You know, he's smart.
00:20:05 Kathryn:
He knows how to do this.
00:20:06 Kathryn:
He's very good at it.
00:20:08 Kathryn:
Yeah.
00:20:08 Kathryn:
Dog, great handler needs work.
00:20:11 Kathryn:
You know, that's probably what the result was.
00:20:14 Kathryn:
No, I think in anything, you have to be really persistent and nothing is necessarily the first time you go to do it that you're going to win or achieve what you want to achieve.
00:20:24 Kathryn:
Or it might be that you had some expectations and there you don't quite reach those expectations.
00:20:30 Kathryn:
But again, it's what do you learn from it?
00:20:31 Kathryn:
What do you take away from it?
00:20:33 Kathryn:
And I think if you can look at it like that, then you continue to grow.
00:20:36 Kathryn:
And I think that's the case in anything, whether it's sport, career, relationships, relationships in particular, any kind of relationship.
00:20:44 Kathryn:
Even the relationship with the dog, relationship with your siblings, with your parents, with your partner, with your children.
00:20:51 Kathryn:
None of us are getting it right first time, right?
00:20:54 Kathryn:
Or all the time.
00:20:55 Kathryn:
It's not possible, but it's that, okay, what just happened there?
00:20:59 Kathryn:
What can I learn from it?
00:21:01 Kathryn:
And how do I take that forward and adapt, change, try something new?
00:21:10 Sally-Anne:
So I heard you say that your career was
00:21:13 Sally-Anne:
was unplanned, that you took opportunities as they arose and knowing your love for adventure, how have you integrated that into your career choices?
00:21:23 Kathryn:
That's a very good question because I do feel like my career has been an amazing adventure.
00:21:28 Kathryn:
I've had tremendous opportunities, taken those opportunities, run with those opportunities, had the chance to do all kinds of exciting things both in business but also where I've been located, the travel that I've done as part of it, the people that I've met.
00:21:44 Kathryn:
terms of adventure, I've always looked at it like I love business.
00:21:47 Kathryn:
I love it.
00:21:48 Kathryn:
It excites me.
00:21:49 Kathryn:
I've always been like, how do you make that grow?
00:21:52 Kathryn:
What do you do with that?
00:21:53 Kathryn:
How can you make that better?
00:21:54 Kathryn:
What else could you do that was exciting?
00:21:56 Kathryn:
And I think I used to pick up on these things all the way along.
00:21:59 Kathryn:
I used to do, even from school, a friend of mine and I, we'd go and do all kinds of different things trying to earn money.
00:22:06 Kathryn:
And I remember one time I even tried supermarket cleaning before school at like 5am.
00:22:10 Kathryn:
I think I did it for two days and went, that is absolutely not for
00:22:14 Kathryn:
It was, I don't know how people do it.
00:22:16 Kathryn:
It's physically really demanding.
00:22:18 Kathryn:
And I was like, this is, I cannot do this.
00:22:20 Kathryn:
So, oh gosh, we try to do just all kinds of business ideas and different things.
00:22:24 Kathryn:
And even when I started my career as a journalist,
00:22:28 Kathryn:
I remember looking and saying, Well, there's an opportunity.
00:22:30 Kathryn:
People keep asking us to cover lifestyle things.
00:22:33 Kathryn:
At the time, reflexology was a thing, and then someone would open a trampoline park and this.
00:22:37 Kathryn:
And I said, Look, we could cover it, but we could do a lifestyle edition once a month or once a quarter, whatever, and you could sell more advertising around it.
00:22:46 Kathryn:
And the reason I wanted to do it was because I wanted to go and try all these things for free because I thought it would be really fun.
00:22:52 Kathryn:
And I got my colleagues involved, and there is still, I've got the clipping somewhere of all of
00:22:58 Kathryn:
trampolines in a trampoline park, looking like we're having a whale at the time.
00:23:01 Kathryn:
But we wrote a story about it.
00:23:02 Kathryn:
They got publicity and we got advertising money for it.
00:23:05 Kathryn:
So, oh gosh, I tried all kinds of weird and wonderful things.
00:23:08 Kathryn:
It was really good fun.
00:23:09 Kathryn:
So I think I've always looked a bit like, you know, is this fun?
00:23:13 Kathryn:
Are we doing something?
00:23:14 Kathryn:
Is it beneficial to the business as well?
00:23:16 Kathryn:
But at the same time, I've really enjoyed it.
00:23:20 Kathryn:
I think that is what has driven my career.
00:23:22 Kathryn:
I've always been very passionate about it, passionate about new ideas, about what can we do next.
00:23:27 Kathryn:
I moved into a very different world of B2B marketing and product marketing, but this is about developing new and exciting products.
00:23:35 Kathryn:
And I spent hours in my early days in the US.
00:23:38 Kathryn:
I was in electronic security, video surveillance, electronic article surveillance, things like this.
00:23:43 Kathryn:
And I spent hours in security rooms in retail stores, watching how people use things.
00:23:48 Kathryn:
I worked at Home Depot.
00:23:49 Kathryn:
It was
00:23:49 Kathryn:
on the checkout to see how our products would work.
00:23:52 Kathryn:
To me, that was fun.
00:23:53 Kathryn:
Normally, I'm in an office or traveling or out and about, but now I get to don an apron, an orange apron in Home Depot, pretend I know something about tools I know nothing about and DIY and work on a cash register.
00:24:06 Kathryn:
I learn a lot and I think that curiosity, that adventure.
00:24:10 Kathryn:
When it came to actually making decisions, even the job offer to move with the company I was with from the UK to the States,
00:24:18 Kathryn:
came about from being very passionate at a sort of European meeting with a marketing leader from the US who was over doing the workshops with us and being very passionate in the bar afterwards about new products and ideas and whatever.
00:24:33 Kathryn:
And someone just saying, there's a job in the US and I really think you'd be the right person for it.
00:24:38 Kathryn:
I'm not thinking anything of it.
00:24:40 Kathryn:
And two weeks later, someone calling me up and going, where's your resume?
00:24:43 Kathryn:
And I'm like, what?
00:24:44 Kathryn:
Your CV.
00:24:45 Kathryn:
I went, You were serious.
00:24:46 Kathryn:
I had no idea.
00:24:47 Kathryn:
Two months later, I was in the States.
00:24:50 Kathryn:
People were like, Well, what are you going to do?
00:24:52 Kathryn:
I don't know.
00:24:53 Kathryn:
I'm just going to go.
00:24:53 Kathryn:
Why not?
00:24:54 Kathryn:
Let's go and see what comes of it.
00:24:57 Kathryn:
That's how it kept unfolding.
00:24:58 Kathryn:
I think there's a consciousness that I've always been in marketing and business development and that very commercial aspect of it.
00:25:05 Kathryn:
It's always about growing something, developing something, building something.
00:25:09 Kathryn:
That has always been at the core of what I do, but it's always been about the curiosity, the adventure, not
00:25:15 Kathryn:
for me personally, but the adventure for the business.
00:25:17 Kathryn:
How do you take that business on an adventure and grow it and build it?
00:25:21 Kathryn:
And I've been very fortunate along the way to work with
00:25:27 Kathryn:
and for amazing individuals who also have that same passion, desire, go for it.
00:25:33 Kathryn:
Let's go for it.
00:25:33 Kathryn:
Let's do it.
00:25:34 Kathryn:
You know, that excitement and sometimes completely crazy people that you work with who are super visionary, have so much energy and passion and having the opportunity to work with people like that who are like, yeah, go for it.
00:25:47 Kathryn:
Let's try it.
00:25:48 Kathryn:
Whatever, you know, what can go wrong?
00:25:50 Kathryn:
Let's give it a go.
00:25:51 Kathryn:
Having been lucky enough to be in those environments, I think has helped as well.
00:25:56 Kathryn:
You know, you could be in an environment where that opportunity to really have new ideas, be really curious, have that autonomy, be empowered, doesn't always come along.
00:26:07 Kathryn:
And I'm well aware of that, that there are many situations that people are in that they don't have that opportunity.
00:26:12 Kathryn:
But I think I've always sought that out.
00:26:14 Kathryn:
So while I would say I didn't go, I'm going to go from this job to this job and this is my career directory, I have always sought out businesses, opportunities, teams, leaders,
00:26:26 Kathryn:
like that.
00:26:27 Kathryn:
Yes.
00:26:28 Kathryn:
And embody that.
00:26:29 Kathryn:
And where I haven't chosen that along the way, because it's not always linear, is it?
00:26:33 Kathryn:
You definitely have your ups and your downs.
00:26:34 Kathryn:
Then I have, it's not been great.
00:26:37 Kathryn:
It hasn't worked out.
00:26:39 Kathryn:
best possible way.
00:26:40 Kathryn:
I suppose my career has been somewhat unconventional as well because I have been in-house in large organisations and then a lot of times in the roles I do, we are transitioning or transforming a business and we go from building that and then it will get sold.
00:26:54 Kathryn:
I might be part of that transition, oftentimes I am, and then it's what do you do next?
00:26:58 Kathryn:
Oftentimes I've left and then I've gone on and then come back maybe as a consultant or out of house.
00:27:04 Kathryn:
I haven't followed a particularly traditional path.
00:27:07 Kathryn:
Sometimes I'm in-house, sometimes I'm
00:27:09 Kathryn:
working for myself, a bit of both.
00:27:12 Kathryn:
It really varies.
00:27:13 Kathryn:
And I've liked that variation.
00:27:15 Kathryn:
I think that's probably in what I do as a chief marketing officer, chief strategy officer.
00:27:21 Kathryn:
It's helped me a lot to experience all of these different types of businesses all over the world, small, medium, large, and take the best tumult of those.
00:27:33 Kathryn:
I learn something all the time.
00:27:36 Kathryn:
You know, even when you think you're in a business, it's
00:27:38 Kathryn:
chaotic or a bit crazy and you think, oh gosh, this is not what I'm used to.
00:27:42 Kathryn:
I'm used to a bit more rigor.
00:27:44 Kathryn:
But then you look at it and you say, this is so entrepreneurial.
00:27:47 Kathryn:
Like there's something to be said to you, that hustle for it, keep going after the business, don't stop.
00:27:52 Kathryn:
And that's really important to embrace.
00:27:54 Kathryn:
And then how can you combine that with more rigor, with more governance to really scale it?
00:28:00 Kathryn:
But there's always something to learn.
00:28:02 Kathryn:
And I'm in absolute admiration of anyone
00:28:06 Kathryn:
that starts a business, has an idea and goes for it.
00:28:11 Kathryn:
I'll help them grow it, but I'm not going to come up with the idea for that business.
00:28:15 Kathryn:
Or probably, to be honest with you, I don't know that I would be fearless enough, even if I did have ideas along the way, to start a business with something completely new.
00:28:27 Kathryn:
I mean, I have my own business, as it were, selling me.
00:28:33 Kathryn:
But I am an admiration of anyone that starts a business and gives it a go.
00:28:38 Kathryn:
I think that the ideas that people have, the tenacity, the resilience, the grit, and having been on the retreats and the workshops that Sally-Ann you run with Skilful Leaders and meeting the most amazing entrepreneurs and their stories and what they've been through to what they achieve is just incredible.
00:28:59 Sally-Anne:
Yes.
00:29:00 Kathryn:
So anytime I get to work with entrepreneurs like that, or even someone who's very entrepreneurial within a larger business, which has happened on multiple occasions, I find it very exciting and I think they're amazing.
00:29:13 Sally-Anne:
So you're the right hand in the marketing context.
00:29:16 Sally-Anne:
And I'm imagining I've got this sort of image in my mind, I don't know why, I have a huge wave and you're kind of on a surfboard riding the wave.
00:29:24 Sally-Anne:
You didn't start the wave, but you're there going with it, making your,
00:29:29 Sally-Anne:
huge contribution to a successful ride of that wave.
00:29:34 Sally-Anne:
Where are you now?
00:29:34 Sally-Anne:
You're a fractional CMO at the moment, aren't you?
00:29:37 Sally-Anne:
Tell us a bit about what's happening at the moment in your life.
00:29:40 Kathryn:
Yeah, so I am currently almost three months into a fractional CMO position with a amazing UK startup called Spotless Water.
00:29:49 Kathryn:
And I did some consulting for them and didn't take a lot to twist my arm to go in-house as a fractional CMO simply because they are so entrepreneurial.
00:30:03 Kathryn:
The CEO is so forward thinking, so curious, so passionate about
00:30:09 Kathryn:
what he is building and what he and the co-founders have already done.
00:30:14 Kathryn:
And the journey for them is super exciting.
00:30:17 Kathryn:
And you might think, gosh, there's lots of shiny, exciting products and things out there.
00:30:22 Kathryn:
This is pure water, the cleaning, maintenance, automotive, detailing industry.
00:30:28 Kathryn:
But it's delivering it in a way that is more sustainable.
00:30:31 Kathryn:
It's more economical.
00:30:33 Kathryn:
It's completely a disruptor in the industry.
00:30:35 Kathryn:
And I love it.
00:30:36 Kathryn:
I love that it's a disruptor.
00:30:38 Kathryn:
You know, I've worked with products in the past like
00:30:39 Kathryn:
window films.
00:30:40 Kathryn:
And people would go, plastic window films.
00:30:43 Kathryn:
Why is that exciting?
00:30:44 Kathryn:
And that, again, was super exciting because there was so much opportunity for growth.
00:30:48 Kathryn:
It was untapped still.
00:30:49 Kathryn:
And that's what I love, the opportunity.
00:30:51 Kathryn:
So I'm very excited about what I'm doing with them at this current time and very excited about where this business opportunity is and this business as a whole is going to go.
00:31:00 Kathryn:
And there's a great team there and a real disrupting market.
00:31:06 Kathryn:
There's loads of opportunity, but also lots of challenges to solve.
00:31:09 Kathryn:
figure out and understand and learn.
00:31:11 Kathryn:
So it's satisfying my curiosity gene.
00:31:15 Kathryn:
So very much at the moment, but it's fantastic, really enjoying.
00:31:19 Sally-Anne:
Yes, it sounds wonderful for all those reasons.
00:31:22 Sally-Anne:
And you say satisfying your curiosity gene.
00:31:25 Sally-Anne:
And if I may, not to put a dampener on it, but nevertheless to just come back to this where you are in your life now.
00:31:34 Sally-Anne:
and what you've noticed about perimenopause and menopause and what you've noticed, like many other women, myself included, how that impacts our anxiety levels.
00:31:45 Sally-Anne:
None of us asked for that, thank you very much.
00:31:47 Sally-Anne:
But for some reason, that's what happens.
00:31:50 Sally-Anne:
And so we have this new thing, this new quality of being to live with in our lives and manage somehow.
00:32:00 Sally-Anne:
How do you
00:32:02 Sally-Anne:
correlate that with your thirst for adventure, curiosity, excitement.
00:32:07 Sally-Anne:
Tell us a bit about how you're managing that for yourself at this time in your life.
00:32:12 Kathryn:
That has been a very interesting journey and just very interesting.
00:32:16 Kathryn:
The other day I was in the park walking the dog bumped into someone I knew and they described to me that they were just feeling terrible.
00:32:24 Kathryn:
They couldn't think straight.
00:32:26 Kathryn:
They were getting sort of their mind was blocked.
00:32:29 Kathryn:
They were getting brain fog.
00:32:31 Kathryn:
They felt absolutely exhausted.
00:32:33 Kathryn:
And they said, this is just horrible.
00:32:36 Kathryn:
You know, I never expected this.
00:32:38 Kathryn:
And that is a conversation that I think even five years ago you would not have had with any
00:32:42 Kathryn:
You wouldn't have admitted it.
00:32:44 Kathryn:
And we had the conversation then about it is so much more acceptable to go, this is hard.
00:32:50 Kathryn:
This is not easy.
00:32:51 Kathryn:
But I actually went through it very early.
00:32:55 Kathryn:
mother had experienced it all quite early as well.
00:32:57 Kathryn:
And it also made me very appreciative and much more understanding about, I think, some of the behaviors I saw in my mother around anxiety that I was like, why is she like this?
00:33:08 Kathryn:
What is going on?
00:33:10 Kathryn:
I honestly can say, and I'm at the other side now, really, I was quite lucky, I suppose that it happened early, but there was a period of time where I thought, I honestly thought, I don't know that I'm going to be able to work anymore.
00:33:23 Kathryn:
It was that bad, the brain fog, the fatigue, it was awful.
00:33:28 Kathryn:
And trying to figure out what do you do about this?
00:33:32 Kathryn:
How do you manage it?
00:33:34 Kathryn:
Some of that was during a part of COVID.
00:33:36 Kathryn:
And so that's really hard to manage that during a period of time when very hard to get appointments for anything other than anything that was serious.
00:33:44 Kathryn:
I think at that point, you're talking, what, five years ago now, aren't you?
00:33:48 Kathryn:
So I don't think it was still talked about as much.
00:33:50 Kathryn:
I think there's a lot that's happened.
00:33:53 Kathryn:
with well-known celebrities or other key figures who are talking about this all the time, I think it's the first acceptable to go, and everyone talks about the hot flushes and that was the first thing to be talked about.
00:34:04 Kathryn:
And I'm, gosh, don't ask a menopausal woman, don't turn up the heating when she's in the room.
00:34:10 Kathryn:
And so all a bit tongue in cheek.
00:34:11 Kathryn:
But I think the very serious
00:34:14 Kathryn:
side of it is that one, anxieties crop up that you never expected.
00:34:20 Kathryn:
Like, where did these come from?
00:34:21 Kathryn:
That feeling, the brain fog, the all of a sudden, like, I can't remember this person's name.
00:34:26 Kathryn:
Horrible situations where you just think, I'm going a bit mad.
00:34:30 Kathryn:
And that sort of moment of time when you think, God, is this dementia maybe?
00:34:33 Kathryn:
What's going on?
00:34:34 Kathryn:
Like, and how do I fix this?
00:34:35 Kathryn:
And no matter how much I sleep, I cannot get this feeling of lethargy, fatigue.
00:34:40 Kathryn:
And anyone that's going through it, been through it will know that
00:34:44 Kathryn:
But that is soul destroying.
00:34:47 Kathryn:
And I really question, what does this mean for my career?
00:34:50 Kathryn:
My career that to me is so important.
00:34:53 Kathryn:
I've loved it.
00:34:53 Kathryn:
I enjoy it.
00:34:54 Kathryn:
I thrive on it.
00:34:55 Kathryn:
And I feel so fortunate that I am out the other side.
00:34:59 Kathryn:
Now you've got a few of the sort of like...
00:35:01 Kathryn:
giant creeks and things like that.
00:35:03 Kathryn:
But, you know, everyone talking about HRT and obviously exercise and healthy living and, you know, all of those things I had to re-look at and go through the journey.
00:35:13 Kathryn:
But it wasn't, you know, you think, gosh, can you fix this overnight?
00:35:17 Kathryn:
And it's not.
00:35:18 Kathryn:
You have to go, as you know, you have to go on this journey of like, will this work?
00:35:21 Kathryn:
Will that work?
00:35:22 Kathryn:
What can I do?
00:35:23 Kathryn:
And I'm glad it's being talked about more, but I still don't think that we are accommodating it well.
00:35:31 Kathryn:
as a nation, not just in the UK, but I think anywhere, we're not accommodating it in terms of what does that mean for someone in the workplace, in their career?
00:35:42 Kathryn:
How do you recognize it more?
00:35:46 Kathryn:
How are people going to be more comfortable saying, I really struggle with this, you know, I'm exhausted.
00:35:52 Kathryn:
How do you make adjustments for that?
00:35:54 Kathryn:
How do you still support someone?
00:35:55 Kathryn:
I don't think, well, I think we've got a long way to go.
00:35:58 Kathryn:
And as someone working for themselves to a lot of that period, I really worried about, gosh, how much can I take on?
00:36:10 Kathryn:
And probably I think shied away.
00:36:13 Kathryn:
I know I shied away from taking on some projects thinking, I don't think that I can do that.
00:36:20 Sally-Anne:
That must have been a scary moment or moments because you've always been fiercely competent.
00:36:27 Sally-Anne:
superbly capable.
00:36:29 Sally-Anne:
And you experienced a sense of a loss of that temporary, but nevertheless very real at the time.
00:36:36 Sally-Anne:
Can you remember what you were most afraid of?
00:36:38 Kathryn:
I thought I was losing my mind at one point.
00:36:41 Kathryn:
I can remember thinking, I can't remember people's names, like, what's their name?
00:36:46 Kathryn:
I can't remember their name.
00:36:47 Kathryn:
And, you know, what was I supposed to do?
00:36:49 Kathryn:
And I can't keep up.
00:36:50 Kathryn:
And it just feels like I am slogging.
00:36:53 Kathryn:
It felt like
00:36:55 Kathryn:
a couple of half Ironman races that I've done.
00:37:00 Kathryn:
We're on the midway through the run and you're like, oh my God, everything is seizing up and you're getting slower and slower.
00:37:06 Kathryn:
It felt like that, that you were just forcing your way through.
00:37:10 Kathryn:
It was like walking through molasses or it's quite hard to describe, but the feeling, for me anyway,
00:37:17 Kathryn:
There was a lot of fear around what does this mean?
00:37:20 Kathryn:
I support myself, my business is, that's what pays the bills.
00:37:26 Kathryn:
How do you manage that?
00:37:28 Kathryn:
And that was terrifying at points because I really wasn't sure because you don't know when it'll end.
00:37:35 Sally-Anne:
So how did you manage that?
00:37:37 Kathryn:
I'm not sure.
00:37:38 Kathryn:
If I managed it very well at points, I think there were times when I thought, like I said, I'd shied away maybe from doing some projects or I stopped doing some things.
00:37:50 Kathryn:
Like I suddenly got a slightly irrational fear about rowing and thinking I'm going to capsize or no.
00:37:56 Kathryn:
And all of a sudden I was like, oh my God, this is ridiculous.
00:37:59 Kathryn:
I have rowed for over about 20 years and I've rowed in every type of condition and boat possible competed and all of a sudden I'm like, oh, I don't know.
00:38:08 Kathryn:
I'm really nervous about this.
00:38:09 Kathryn:
I don't feel good.
00:38:10 Kathryn:
And I knew that I was not the best crewmate on the water because I was really like, oh, I'm really anxious about this.
00:38:17 Kathryn:
But you just sort of keep going.
00:38:18 Kathryn:
I think in the career piece.
00:38:21 Kathryn:
I definitely took a step back.
00:38:23 Kathryn:
Now I worked for myself, so I had that option.
00:38:26 Kathryn:
But financially, that wasn't probably the best decision to do.
00:38:29 Kathryn:
But I felt like I didn't have the capacity to do as much as I had been doing.
00:38:36 Kathryn:
And so for a while there, and I also then tried to think about more exercise.
00:38:41 Kathryn:
Do you take supplements?
00:38:43 Kathryn:
Let's look into all the different versions of HRT.
00:38:46 Kathryn:
I remember at one point I kept a spreadsheet of trying different HRT gels and what
00:38:51 Kathryn:
response I was to them, what that looked like, and did they work or did they not work?
00:38:56 Kathryn:
And I did honestly think, is this going to be how I'm going to be forevermore?
00:39:01 Kathryn:
Will this ever change?
00:39:03 Kathryn:
And it did.
00:39:05 Kathryn:
I couldn't tell you if it's more the stage of where I am or whether it's something I did or something I did differently.
00:39:14 Kathryn:
I couldn't say, but certainly I feel like I am out the other side of that now.
00:39:19 Sally-Anne:
Right.
00:39:20 Kathryn:
It's not fun at all.
00:39:22 Kathryn:
And we don't talk about it enough still.
00:39:25 Kathryn:
Like I said, the fun bit about the jokes about, you know, hot flushes and angry women and, you know, all this kind of typical sort of stereotypical things, but there is a much more deep rooted effect
00:39:35 Kathryn:
that can have a huge impact at a time in life for many women who still have maybe a family, young family that they're caring for children, maybe they're caring for parents, they've got a career or a job or whatever they might be doing and trying to juggle all of that and feeling so much less than 100% with something that isn't like I've got a broken leg, we know what to do.
00:39:58 Kathryn:
It's trying to figure out what the right solution is for you as an individual, what will work and juggle that with everything else while you're feeling super tired, exhausted and can't remember anyone's name, you know, or where you left your car keys.
00:40:12 Kathryn:
I think it's super difficult and we need to do so much more to raise that awareness.
00:40:19 Kathryn:
How do you help people through that?
00:40:20 Kathryn:
I don't have the answers for sure.
00:40:23 Kathryn:
I just know that it's not fun.
00:40:25 Sally-Anne:
No, and looking at where we are in this conversation right now, what I'm curious about is with your lived experience of this thing, this very normal human experience for women particularly, I expect men have their own variant of that, but we're talking about female menopause here.
00:40:45 Sally-Anne:
What would you suggest to women going through it today, based on your own experience?
00:40:52 Sally-Anne:
One thing.
00:40:54 Kathryn:
I think the one thing I wish I had done more of was talking about it, but I didn't feel that at the time, particularly talking about the impact it's having on how you work in particular, that it was accepted enough to be able to say,
00:41:15 Kathryn:
I need to make some adaptations.
00:41:17 Kathryn:
I'm not 100% sure what they are.
00:41:19 Kathryn:
This is harder than it's been previously to do what I used to do or to engage in the same way and to be able to have those open conversations.
00:41:28 Kathryn:
And I think that's something I wish I'd talked maybe about those really hard bits, those mental pieces, rather than the hot flushes and my joints ache.
00:41:37 Kathryn:
And those conversations were easy to have with sort of friends and family and people like that, but I think the rest of it
00:41:44 Kathryn:
was something I nobody at the time and certainly I didn't really talk about and I think that it would have been helpful to have been or to have had more of those conversations.
00:41:57 Kathryn:
I would say though I think it's a very tall ask you know to you've got to have
00:42:03 Kathryn:
or feel that you've got a very supportive workplace, people around you at work, managers at work, leaders at work, but then even in your own relationships, your own family, how accepting are those relationships, no matter what they are, work, family, friends, going to be?
00:42:22 Kathryn:
And some people are very uncomfortable talking about these things.
00:42:26 Kathryn:
But for me, I think I wish I had talked about what I felt were more private aspects that were
00:42:32 Kathryn:
scaring me the most.
00:42:34 Kathryn:
The hot flashes, I felt like, you know, I can sort that out.
00:42:37 Kathryn:
But the feeling like your mental capacity is not at the same level that you don't have, you'll be like, I need to fall asleep at three o'clock in the afternoon because I'm absolutely exhausted.
00:42:47 Kathryn:
Like once I crawl along the floor because I'm so tired.
00:42:51 Kathryn:
Those are things I was scared to talk about because I was really fearful of being judged or seen not capable or that something that would impact what I was doing.
00:43:02 Kathryn:
So instead, I
00:43:03 Kathryn:
from taking on some new projects, doing anything a little bit more difficult, and that wasn't like me at all.
00:43:09 Sally-Anne:
So identifying one's own fears, yours were associated, I think, with capability of not being able to do things you always had done, of being judged for not being able to do that, kind of thing, not wishing to oversimplify it.
00:43:24 Sally-Anne:
But if we can understand what our own fears are and voice them to people who are able to listen,
00:43:33 Sally-Anne:
the right audience, so to speak.
00:43:34 Sally-Anne:
Hopefully that's going to be friends and family, work colleagues even, or maybe some other type of support.
00:43:40 Sally-Anne:
But being able to do that, being able to figure out what is this thing that's scaring us so much and what is it for me personally?
00:43:48 Sally-Anne:
That's what I'm hearing.
00:43:49 Sally-Anne:
Something like that.
00:43:51 Kathryn:
I think so.
00:43:52 Kathryn:
And I think that translates into a lot of things actually.
00:43:56 Kathryn:
If you know that something is scaring you and it's fearful,
00:44:01 Kathryn:
whatever that fear might be, being able to go, this is really scary.
00:44:06 Kathryn:
I'm really scared about this.
00:44:08 Kathryn:
I'm worried about this.
00:44:09 Kathryn:
I'm anxious about this.
00:44:11 Kathryn:
I'm being able to have that conversation about it because the minute you talk about it, there's almost that instant relief, isn't there?
00:44:19 Kathryn:
And for mental health,
00:44:21 Kathryn:
that is hugely important.
00:44:23 Kathryn:
But if you are an inherently very private person or you're worried about the impact that that might, about admitting these fears, admitting there is something that is changed for you that might impact important things in your life and you're fearful that that might be not well
00:44:43 Kathryn:
received or someone else might perceive it as a weakness and maybe that will affect you.
00:44:49 Kathryn:
That's the tough bit, isn't it?
00:44:50 Kathryn:
That vulnerability.
00:44:51 Kathryn:
And unfortunately, we don't always know how it will be received until we actually voice it.
00:44:58 Kathryn:
And so it's a very difficult balance.
00:45:00 Kathryn:
But certainly, I think you're spot on, Sally-Anne, that understanding this is a fear.
00:45:08 Kathryn:
Now, how do I
00:45:11 Kathryn:
express that?
00:45:12 Kathryn:
How do I get it out of my head as a fear and speak those words or share that hopefully in a trusted environment?
00:45:22 Kathryn:
You always hope that someone has that space or person or people to be able to do that.
00:45:29 Kathryn:
But I do think that that identifying it is and then acknowledging it.
00:45:35 Kathryn:
And if you can share, you know, trouble shared is a troubled halved.
00:45:38 Kathryn:
Isn't that an old saying?
00:45:41 Kathryn:
Haven't heard it in a long time, but I think it probably still stands very true.
00:45:45 Sally-Anne:
Yes.
00:45:46 Sally-Anne:
Thank you, Kathryn:.
00:45:48 Sally-Anne:
So looking at where you are now in your life and looking to your future and the adventures ahead, what does fearless forward mean to you?
00:45:58 Kathryn:
Fearless forward for me.
00:46:01 Kathryn:
I do feel that having come through perimenopause and sort of menopause and out the other side, I do feel like I have a new lease of life, that those really foggy, difficult moments are behind me now, because I count myself lucky.
00:46:16 Kathryn:
And I have a real clarity, I think, of
00:46:21 Kathryn:
what's important to me at this moment in time, that I really love and enjoy my career and what I'm doing.
00:46:28 Kathryn:
I'm very excited about the future of Spotless Water.
00:46:31 Kathryn:
Being able to volunteer with search and rescue and work with Bailey in that capacity as a volunteer.
00:46:42 Kathryn:
For me, it's about what is the next adventure?
00:46:45 Kathryn:
I'm not sure.
00:46:45 Kathryn:
I don't know where it will come from.
00:46:47 Kathryn:
Sometimes, I don't know, it could come from the least expected places, but I think it's about keeping that curiosity open, saying yes, continuing to engage with all of the different communities that are in my life, the people in my life, meeting new people.
00:47:05 Kathryn:
you never know when somebody might just, you're standing in the park maybe having a coffee and somebody throws out an idea of maybe the next thing is like, who wants to climb Kilimanjaro?
00:47:17 Kathryn:
Or who wants to go canoeing down the Danube?
00:47:21 Kathryn:
Or I don't know.
00:47:22 Kathryn:
what that might be.
00:47:23 Kathryn:
So there are sort of those.
00:47:25 Kathryn:
short term, immediate adventures.
00:47:27 Kathryn:
Then there is just the adventure every day of you never quite know, do you, when you wake up in the morning and walk out the front door, what life will hold.
00:47:34 Kathryn:
And hopefully it's positive and fruitful, but no doubt it will be an adventure.
00:47:44 Sally-Anne:
Kathryn:, thank you so much.
00:47:46 Kathryn:
You're welcome.
00:47:46 Kathryn:
Thank you, Sally-Ann.
00:47:50 Sally-Anne:
For Kathryn:, adventure is a mindset for living.
00:47:54 Sally-Anne:
a way of approaching each day with openness, curiosity, and movement.
00:47:59 Sally-Anne:
She's found that growth doesn't always follow a plan.
00:48:02 Sally-Anne:
It comes from saying yes to opportunities and learning through experience.
00:48:07 Sally-Anne:
And she's noticed that fear shows up not only in big personal transitions like the menopause, or in challenging situations like the search and rescue team assessment with her dog, but in the smaller, surprising moments too.
00:48:22 Sally-Anne:
feeling lonely, even in a life full of people, being proud of your choices while acknowledging their cost, loving your career, and yet still questioning it.
00:48:34 Sally-Anne:
As Kathryn: has found, it's in the pause that we find our strength, and remembering that the best response to anxiety is not to hold on tighter, but to trust yourself and others well enough to let go.
00:48:49 Sally-Anne:
And that includes her four-legged teammate.
00:48:52 Sally-Anne:
who knows what he's doing.
00:48:57 Sally-Anne:
Thank you for listening.
00:48:59 Sally-Anne:
Fearless Forward is edited and produced by Mark Steadman.
00:49:02 Sally-Anne:
I'll be back with you in two weeks for our next conversation about how leaders have faced their fears.
00:49:07 Sally-Anne:
To be sure of catching it, go to fearlessforward.org or subscribe to my weekly bulletin at skillfulleaders.com.