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Demystifying The Indie Film Journey
Garrett: I'd love to talk with
your organization about a project
I'm working on to see if you'd
be interested in being involved.
And within a week I had the CEO,
the director, CFO and a one of their
marketing people in my living room.
And I was giving them an
hour long presentation.
We'll talk about how that went
This is Truly Independent, a show that
demystifies the indie film journey by
documenting the process of releasing
independent films in theaters.
Each week, Garrett Batty and I,
Darren Smith, will update you
on our journey, bringing guests
to share their insights into the
process and answer your questions.
Daren: Garrett.
Hey, man.
We're back.
Garrett: Good to see you
again this week, Darren.
I'm so excited for this episode.
Daren: me.
Me too.
Because today we're diving into.
This is our pitch episode.
This is probably what I get
questions on more than anything else.
How do you pitch where you find
people, all this kind of stuff.
So for today's episode,
get excited, everybody.
We're going to talk about three types
of pitches scenarios that you might
find yourself in as a filmmaker.
And how we approach each one of those.
So the three different scenarios are
one is a cold call or cold outreach.
Like we do that a lot as filmmakers, we're
finding people, we're messaging them.
We're telling them about our projects.
Second one is where you're
given an opportunity, like
an introduction to somebody.
Someone says, Hey, do you know Darren?
He's working on cool stuff.
So an introduction, what
do you do in that scenario?
And third, Is an invited pitch.
Like someone has invited
you to come and pitch them.
So we kind of go from the coldest
version to the warmest version.
Oh, I'm excited, man.
We're finally going to have a
piece of content to point people to
whenever they ask us about pitching.
Garrett: Yeah, it is interesting.
And, and I think as I thought about
this episode, I realized how much
of filmmaking, how much of the
work that I do is pitching because
there's a lot of pitching and that
goes on kind of unconsciously even,
or subconsciously, probably more
subconscious than unconscious.
But you, you know, anytime
somebody is asking.
Hey, what's your next project?
Or what are you working on?
Like that's an opportunity not to be
salesy or not to just like always be
like that guy that nobody wants to talk
to, but you're always kind of pitching.
whatever you're working on,
whether it's in development or
in production or in post, you're
always selling your next project.
Pitching is just the, the, that
initial, that the first part of that.
Daren: Yeah, a hundred percent like
pitching should be your middle name as
a filmmaker if whether you're a producer
and you're pitching like to raise money
for projects, whether you're a director
pitching for the same reasons, but you
may even need to pitch ideas to actors
on set that that need to be framed.
In a pitch and the better
you get at pitching, the more
successful you become, I think.
So why don't we dive into
the first one and talk about
cold calling, cold outreach.
Like this is where a cold versus hot,
meaning you don't know this person.
They don't know you.
So if you are a filmmaker and you, you see
that, oh, there's an executive producer on
another film that was shot here in Utah.
I want to reach out to them, but you've
never met them and they've never met you.
That would be cold outreach.
So how do you approach that Garrett?
Garrett: Well, I'm going to
give two different scenarios.
One, I get that a lot.
I get people that are pitching me
that don't know me that either send
me a text randomly or an email.
And so as far as that, I don't know them.
They don't know me.
Scenario that exists.
Honestly, for about five minutes until I
read their email and then I consider them
a contact or they consider me a contact.
They are reaching out at some
point to make that introduction.
It still falls within
that cold call category.
And I think one of the things that Is
just an invitation to talk either if
I'm on the receiving end of that, or if
that's my approach so I'll get a lot of
people that will reach out and say, Hey,
I have an idea, or there's a very nice
introduction, either via text or email
and say, I'm so and so, I I would love
to chat with you if you have 30 minutes
we can, I could take you to lunch or
meet you over zoom, and that's usually
an effective way to, to get a meeting.
And I've, I've again, been on
the receiving end of that and
also been on the, the asking
end of that just last week.
And I know I'm going long here,
but just last week, Darren, I
reached out to an organization.
I have an idea for a film.
I'm very, very excited about it.
And so I wanted to find a An
organization that, as you say, that
places a high value on the type of
content that this film deals with.
And so I reached out to this
organization, gave a brief introduction.
I don't know, my name's Garrett.
I'm a local filmmaker.
I've been a fan of what you all
put out recently, and I'd love to
talk with your organization about
a project I'm working on to see if
you'd be interested in being involved.
And within a week I had the CEO,
the director, CFO and a one of their
marketing people in my living room.
And I was giving them an
hour long presentation.
We'll talk about how that went,
because now that I think goes into
this warm introduction, but it works.
Daren: Yeah.
Oh, that's awesome.
And I can't wait to hear more
about how that pitch went.
But I do think that we've all experienced
being on the receiving end of this, right?
I get five emails a day from agencies
that want to help me with LinkedIn, that
want to help me with lead generation,
that want to help me with AI, that
want to help me with all these things.
And they're copy paste.
They're, they're not personal at all.
And I, I look at the email and if it's
like Darren Smith, 9 1 5 6 3 8 4, I know
that it's a throwaway email address.
at Gmail, like that's
not a real email address.
That's a, that's basically them using
anyway, I don't want to get into
the weeds on email protocols and
stuff, but like, I know that it's
not a real person who really cares.
So those get deleted
before I even read them.
I do not let them into my inbox.
However, on the flip side, when somebody
reaches out, Better best case scenario
cold outreach wise when they reply to an
email that I sent out like a new blog post
or there's a new episode of our podcast
and they reply a it means they're already
subscribed to something that I'm spending
time on, which I value that people are
giving me their time and attention.
So, you know, point number one,
point number two, when they start
with, Hey, I saw, I watched your
episode on this, or I read your blog
post on this, or I read your book.
Instantly, I'm going to give them
the time and the attention that they
deserve because they've already said,
I've given you my time and attention.
Can I have a little bit of yours?
And that feels like a fair trade.
So I'll read their email.
And if it's valuable to
me, then I will reply.
So to me, that is the
key for cold outreach.
It needs to be about the
other person, not about you.
So in my early days, I would
say, Hey, I'm doing this.
And I would like to know if you
would like to give me money.
Right.
It was all about me, me, me, I, I,
and I got way better at cold outreach
when it started to become about them.
So I would reach out to someone like
Joe Polizzi, who I did a podcast with.
And I said, Hey, Joe, I know you've
been spending a lot of time thinking
about this because I listened to this
podcast and read your recent post.
I have an idea that I'd love to pitch you
about how you can get this outcome, which
was how to test this out on your podcast.
And That intro email led to a call, a
pitch call, which led to me and him doing
a season of a podcast called the 10 K
creator, which did 50, 000 downloads in
its first season for a brand new show.
So when you make it about them
and what they want a, you have
to already know that, which takes
time and effort and attention.
Like you have to put forth some
effort to learn what they're
working on and what they care about.
But when you do that and write a
two or three sentence at most email,
Hey, I see you're working on this.
I've got something I think might be
beneficial to help you get this outcome.
It seems like you're working on.
Wow.
Cool.
Yeah.
Let's have a five to 10, 30 minute chat.
And that tends to work out
a lot better than will you
give me money for my project?
Garrett: I think that there are good.
There are.
A hundred percent agree with
you and what you're saying.
And we've all, you know, the reason
that we're able to say this now is
because we've learned from maybe doing
it wrong for for so many years, or at
least for those first projects that
didn't ever happen I'm Garrett Batty
and I'm really want to, you know, it,
whatever the ask is making about me.
I think another element is just be
patient with it, even on a cold call.
Be patient.
I'll get an email, I'll get lots of
emails and say, Hi, I'm so and so, and
here's five scripts for you to consider.
And I just want to say, one,
I mean, to read a script is
going to take a couple of hours.
You know, to even consider that
I don't know this individual.
I don't know anything about them and
they've just kind of like vomited
everything that they've been working
on for so long, in front of me.
And it's, and I don't
want to clean up the mess.
It's just delete.
And so just be patient.
And, and again, I think making it about.
The other person, there's
a lot of value in that.
Daren: Yeah.
Another thought, cause I do think
this is probably the most common
of all these three pitches is the
one you're going to do the most.
You might be at an event or like
AFM was last week or two weeks ago.
And a lot of people that we
know went down there to go and
cold pitch a lot of people.
Is to get curious and to realize
that, like, if you just spend a few
minutes asking them, if they're
nice, if they're a normal human
being, they will ultimately turn
around and ask you the same question.
And if they don't, they're probably not
the kind of person you want to work with.
Because if you go in curious, you
say, well, tell me about your business
and what are you guys looking for?
And what are you working on right now?
And you listen intently and you ask
questions and it's not about you at all.
You're not.
Formulating.
How can I interject my thing into this?
You got to go in being 100 percent okay
with only talking about them for 5,
10, 15 minutes and then walking away
and not talking about you because.
They're going to remember that you
were someone who wasn't transactional
in the first conversation.
But if you can get curious, then
ultimately they'll, that table will
turn and they'll get curious about you.
And that's where you can kind of
give your one minute pitch or less of
like, Oh, I'm working on a project.
That's kind of this meets this.
I'm thinking about shooting it in Utah
and I'm thinking about this, right.
It's very condensed, nice, tightly
packaged version of your full pitch.
And if they like that, You know, log
line version, then you can go to the
synopsis and if they like the synopsis,
they can go to the full script, right?
You kind of, it's like dating.
You bring them along slowly instead
of proposing on the first date.
Garrett: So for that cold call, then
it should be essentially 90 percent
about them and 10 percent about
you, like you as the introduction.
Hi, I'm Garrett.
I'm a local filmmaker and
I'm working on a project.
So I'd love to talk with you, but
find out more what you're working on.
Would you take a meeting?
Right.
And in that initial conversation,
it is all about them.
And I think that that percentage
is going to flip the more we
get into warm and invited Yeah,
Daren: there and go, actually, I
think you need to put them first
in that cold message instead of
hi, I'm so and so and I do this.
Hey Garrett, man, I, I just saw
your movie and it was awesome.
Awesome.
And I would love to know
what you're doing next.
Oh, by the way, I'm Darren.
I'm a producer.
I just moved here to Utah and I'm
trying to connect with people in the
industry, but you're top of my list.
Cause man, you killed that movie.
Whoa.
Okay.
I have context as to whether or not
I want to talk to this person, but
I'm also, he wants to learn about me.
It's not about me giving
him what he wants.
Garrett: yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
The order is important.
Daren: So I
Garrett: Okay.
So
Daren: of give people
a visual really quick.
If you're thinking of like a
funnel and I hate the idea of
funnels, but let's go with me here.
You have a funnel at the top of the
funnel is like your cold outreach
stuff, meaning you might cold
outreach a hundred people and get one.
To respond, right?
The odds are low that it'll turn
into the exact thing that you
want, like an investor giving you
a million dollars in a million.
So realize that this is a volume game.
Cold outreach is not
about doing one a week.
It's like doing a hundred a day.
And that's the level that you
need to be thinking of in order
to get the results that you want.
But as you move down to the next
level, which is you're getting
an introduction from someone.
Maybe for every 10 introductions,
you're getting one.
Really great pitch or you're getting
an investor or something like that.
So if you can spend more of your
time in the middle and the lower
parts of the funnel, the introduction
or the invited pitch, you're going
to have more success per at bat.
So to speak,
Garrett: yeah, that's interesting.
And I, I, I would, I would want
to know then why you are cold
calling that particular individual.
Right.
That's exhausting.
I think to make a hundred cold calls
or, and maybe, maybe the product that
you're selling is something different.
Maybe if you're trying to get your
script out there, but again, it's,
I, I think even cold calls should be
identified, like who am I talking to?
Why am I spending my time and effort
reaching out to this individual?
Daren: Yeah.
My, my short answer on this is.
If you are earlier in your career,
you're going to need to do more
cold calling because you don't
have the network yet that can do an
introduction, or you haven't done
enough projects to where people are
then inviting you to come and pitch.
And so, To me, I don't, I'm not doing
a lot of cold calling like I'm working
on the next projects right now.
I'm not doing a lot of cold calling.
I'm going to a lot of events that
my friends are hosting and that
are people that I already know.
So I can go in and be like, Hey, Travis,
can you introduce me to so and so?
And they do.
And then it's an introduction pitch
and not a cold pitch where I'm going
up to them after they were on the
main stage and going, hi, Travis,
my name's Darren and I'm a producer
and I would love to talk to you.
That's the wrong time.
But if my friend says,
Hey, do you know Darren?
And they go, no, I don't think so.
Tell me about you.
It's like, Oh, Hey, well, I'm a film
producer and I'm working on this.
10 second pitch and they
go, Oh, that's cool.
Great.
We can start a conversation
and they go, Oh, cool.
And then they look around.
It's like, I'm not going
to pursue this right now.
Right.
So it's about context and it's about
where you're at, but I think the further
along in your career you get, I mean,
you and I are both 15 plus years in our
careers now, like we're, we've done it,
you've done eight or something movies
I've done for, like, we're in a different
place than someone who's starting out.
So that is part of the equation here.
Part of the context.
Okay.
Introduction pitch.
How do we do this?
Garrett: This, this warm introduction.
What, what, what does that mean?
Like, let's start with
identify what that means.
Daren: Yeah.
So let's say you and I are at a
film festival, which we've been
at many or a film premiere even.
And someone that I have been talking
to would like to talk to you.
So they come to me and they go,
Hey, I've been really curious
about how to get to Garrett.
What's the best way.
And I can go, well, I can
just introduce you right now.
So I'll come over.
This has happened multiple times
where I come over, Hey Garrett,
I want you to meet so and so.
And I pull you over and I go, Garrett,
this is Dylan and his daughter, right?
Or this is so and so.
And I go, I would love for you
guys to be able to talk about this.
So I might set it up or tee it up a little
bit, but now I've made it easy for you.
Like, To, to engage in the conversation.
Cause if I'm pulling you over,
you trust me and you know, I'm not
going to throw you to the wolves.
Right.
So it's going to be a
valuable conversation.
I'm only going to do this if I
think it's mutually beneficial.
And then I've set them up as like, Hey,
they're working on this thing and they
would love to talk to you about it.
Right.
So you kind of have some context.
They have a little tee up or a
little alley oop if we're keeping
with the sports metaphors, then
it's a really good conversation.
It's a really easy conversation to get
into rather than them coming up to you,
waiting in line behind five other people
and going, Oh, hi, my name is so and so.
And now they have to explain their
context or where they're coming from.
And you're going, Oh, another,
another person I got to engage with.
Right?
So an introduction is where someone,
you know, is introducing you to someone
you're trying to get in touch with.
Garrett: I think in that scenario
you know, and I would even categorize
like the business card at a screening
which is, you know, like we've watched
a screening or whatever, and we're
talking afterwards, I'm a distributor.
I'm so and so here's my card.
Let's talk about this.
I think in that scenario, it's a 50,
50, like a ratio between here's what
I'm working on and tell me about what
you're, What's your need is right.
So, you know, meeting, meeting
Dylan at a producer's get
together a couple of months ago.
You know, how, you know, thank
you, Darren, for the introduction.
So Dylan, tell me, what are you
working on or what, what brings
you here to this event even?
And I'm just going to find out
what, what he wants to know, what
excites him about film or, or
what topics he's interested in.
And in the same, I'm listening,
but I'm also thinking.
What do, how can I tailor my
pitch or my conversation to
meet his needs or his interests?
Oh, he's got a daughter
that's interested in film.
Oh, great.
Hey, you know, we talked about
a podcast or, oh, he wants to
have an event at his house.
Oh, I love presenting it at homes
you know, or whatever it is.
So a 50, 50, but how can my
needs meet his interests?
Daren: 100%.
I love the way you're framing that
where it's 90, 10, and now it's 50, 50.
That's really cool way of looking at it.
And to go back, I'm going to
mix so many metaphors today.
This is going to be the pitching
slash mixing metaphors episode.
But if you go back to the dating analogy.
You know, you might be thinking about who
at this event can be your wingman, right?
So I went to an event this
morning where this happened.
The person that was presenting, that
was like hosting the event is a friend
of mine and he invited me to the event,
but the person that was a guest, like a
featured guest speaker was someone that
I've been trying to get in touch with.
And I'm like, I really
need a good intro for this.
So me and my friend were sitting down.
You know, just in the chairs after the
event wrapped up and I was chatting
with him about what he's working on.
We were catching up a little bit
because it's been a few months.
And then I noticed that the
speaker, the guest speaker was kind
of wrapping up with the line of
people that wanted to talk to him.
He was coming over to the
host who, and to say bye.
And so I was like, Hey, can
you just give me, I think I may
have even said a an alley oop.
Like I, I probably said like, Hey, can
you just say, Hey, do you know Darren?
Right?
That's all I need from my friend.
Hey, do you know Darren?
And the speaker remembered me.
We've known each other for probably
a decade because of online we've
crossed paths and, you know,
friends, mutual friends, but
he's like, Hey, how's it going?
I haven't seen you in a long time.
So great.
Ice broken.
And I had already planned.
So now we're kind of talking about
what do you do in that scenario?
I already had a pitch ready to
go and guess what my pitch was.
It was not about film, right?
So I'd done my research
about this, this guest.
And I knew that he had a podcast where he
features CEOs of like tech companies and
venture capital firms and stuff like that.
So this dude's super connected.
And I was like, man, I'd love to just.
Being this guy's network, right?
I'd love to be in his
Rolodex, so to speak.
And so what I led with was, Hey, how
would you like a way out of the box
guest for a CEO guest for your podcast?
And he goes, interesting.
Tell me more.
And I'm like,
Garrett: Yeah.
I'm listening.
Daren: hook, I got him a little bit.
So I tell him about how, as a film
producer, I'm kind of like a CEO of
a small startup that raises a million
dollars, has to hire 150 people in a
month and has six months to produce and
perfect a film that's ready for market.
While simultaneously coming up with
the marketing and distribution plan.
And if you're going to do it sustainably
as a career, you kind of have to
do that two or three times a year.
And he goes, this is so cool.
I've never thought of it
that way, but I love movies.
Like definitely we're, we're
going to have this conversation.
I was like, great.
I'd love to let me get your number
and we'll figure out a time.
Cause I'm here in Provo.
I know your studio's upstairs.
Let's chat.
So it was about him.
I know you need a guest for your podcast.
Cause that's the thing that
every podcast that does guests.
Interviews needs is more guests
that are interesting and different
than any other podcast out there.
So I already had that kind
of canned ready to go.
And then guess what happened next?
He says, well, tell me more
about what you're working on.
Great.
Now I can go into my other prepared pitch.
That's a little one or
two minute thing about.
Well, look, I've produced four
movies over the last three years.
And this is some of the stuff
that I noticed along the way.
So now I'm thinking about this,
and this is what I'm setting myself
up for, for the next few years.
And it's really fun because
yada, And I do the pitch.
And then again, he goes, okay.
We need to do lunch, call me and
we're going to go and chat about this.
Cause I want to help you with that.
Like 10 out of 10 could
not have gone better.
That's why I'm like riding high today,
but that's the power of an intro pitch.
Instead of me going up and standing
in line with the other five or six
people that wanted to talk to him
and bend his ear about something, he
came over to where we were, my friend
with status introduced me as someone
else with status, and we were able
to have a conversation peer to peer.
Instead of having that, you
know, it's false, but it's real.
Like the status difference, the
gap between he's the speaker and
I'm an attendee because of the
intro that got flattened out.
And now we're both friends of my
friend and we're on equal ground.
Garrett: Yeah.
That's very cool, Darren.
I mean, that's, that's a
success story right there as
far as that warm introduction.
Here's how to get, here's how
to pitch, here's how to, here's
what to deliver in that scenario.
My, my story, my experience with that
one this week was you know, a couple
of, a couple of weeks ago we did a
screening in Memphis for The Carpenter
when his red carpet premieres.
There were a number of
different people there.
One of our media people Michelle
Moore was there and she introduced
me to a, a producer out there,
a distributor out there.
Who's based in Memphis.
We didn't have a lot of time to
chat, but it was her introduction.
Like this is Garrett.
And he was, you know,
you guys should talk.
And there always is that mutual,
like, there's got to be some sort of
mutual connection or mutual interest.
And we didn't have a lot of time
to talk there, but so, and I didn't
just like offload everything on him.
Oh, I'm so excited to talk to you.
I want to, can you show my movie?
Whatever.
Here's, here's three ideas.
You know, you just.
Try to play it cool.
Oh, great.
You have a card and I'm going to
go give my Q and a right now.
It was in this scenario.
I was the speaker, like it
was my night so to speak.
And he was there observing.
So he was already learning a
lot about me and what I do.
But I followed up with him you know, a
week after the screening, I reached out
via email and said, Hey, I got your card.
Thanks again for taking the time
to come out and watch that movie.
And, we didn't get a chance to talk.
Would you, would you be
interested in taking a meeting?
And we, we met.
So here we this week I had a, a zoom
call with this Essentially distributed.
I didn't know much about.
And so on our call, I mean, I tried to do
a little bit of research, but on our call,
I said, you know, forgive my ignorance.
Can you tell me a little bit
about yourself and what, you know,
what, what you do in the industry?
And, and and I'd love to, love to
get to know that it turns out he
says, and he, this, this guy has been
around, you know, and he says Bye.
Yeah, well, I got started you know,
in the industry, kind of on the music
side, and then shifted over to film and
got involved with a little film called
the passion of the Christ and, was
responsible basically putting that into
theaters for Mel and my mind is blown.
And I'm like, you know, I'm
so sorry for my ignorance.
Please like, tell me more.
But it was, it was a nice 50, 50
conversation where I was just listening.
He knows that my, the reason for me
reaching out is to make a connection.
And to probably pitch and work
together or talk about ideas.
But there was this, you know, we spoke
for an hour and it was back and forth.
He, me, him talking about his
experience and projects that
he's interested in that he likes.
And then me also talking about other
things that I'm working on and, and the
things that he had seen and so forth.
And we will continue to engage and
you know, hopefully get to that
point where it's an invited pitch.
Daren: Yeah.
Amazing.
So I think the same
principle here applies where.
Even though it's 50 50, you want to lead
with, tell me about what you're doing.
Or let's talk about you first is
the, is the context here, right?
This is, let's make this about
you first and let's buoy you up
and give you some compliments.
Oh, I read your book and it was amazing.
And I remember this principle and I
applied it and this happened, like
whatever it is, make it about them first.
And then let them reciprocate
and make it about you.
And that's okay too.
And then take the chance when
it's given you, like that is
the subtext of what's happening.
We're going, okay, I
just talked for a minute.
I should ask him a question.
And then they do.
And then I'm not going to talk
for 10 minutes and give a 10 or
20 minute pitch right then I'm
going to talk for a minute or two.
And you can kind of feel because it's
a back and forth 50, 50 conversation.
If it's getting imbalanced, if I'm
taking three minutes to his one.
That's not good balance.
So instead I should be like,
yeah, but I'm getting long winded.
So tell me more about your podcast.
Like, how is it going?
You've had it for two years,
you know, and it's okay.
Then if they go, no, no, no, no, no.
Tell me more about that because
that sounds really cool.
Great.
They have said, I want to shift this
to be more of a 60, 40, or a 70, 30,
because what you're talking about is
more interesting right now for me, and
that's fine, but you can't lead with that.
You have to go in thinking 50, 50.
Okay.
Fun.
Okay.
I'm wondering if there's anything else
we should say about the invited pitch.
I do think if you are, if you have a
business partner or if you're going to
an event, like well, I know a lot of
people went down to AFM, you know, think
about who, you know, and think about who
they know, and then use that scenario
to kind of be each other's wingman.
Hey, Garrett, I want to
introduce you to this guy.
And the way that you say that.
The way you tee up an
introduction matters a lot, right?
Michelle Moore is a great wing
person, wing woman, because she
goes, Oh, you two need to talk.
And when you say it like that,
instead of you two need to talk,
that's a very different phrase
than, Oh, you two need to talk.
This is exciting.
And there's magic that's going to happen.
That's what you're saying
with your tone of voice.
So you can actually practice that too.
Where as a wingman or a wing woman,
you can be like, I'm going to get
really good at introducing people
to other people because there's a
ton of value in being the connector.
Garrett: a hundred percent.
And I think that that in and of
itself, like that act of connecting
somebody to another person really
kind of I want to say validates or,
but it's a good position to be in.
And I think a great place to
do that is film festivals.
I've had that experience where
I'm talking with distributors.
I know that distributors are there
looking for content and to be able
to pull another filmmaker in and
say, Hey, I know we've just spoken.
You, I want you to meet this person
and their film is incredible.
And you know, so and so this is a
distributor that I've worked with
before, and I can't wait for you
guys to talk, you, you need to
talk as, as as you phrase it that.
It's for me, that's saying, look, I'm not,
I'm not threatened by this individual.
I don't feel like I'm going to lose
face or lower status or whatever.
It's just, we are there working
together to help each other.
And you know, I, I kind of
prescribed to this law of abundance.
You say, look, there's no,
there's abundance out there
and we can all partake of that.
We can all share that.
And.
You know, helping somebody else
is not going to slow my progress.
Daren: Yeah, I, I want to spend
maybe another minute on that idea
of the high status, low status.
It's something that's made
up, but it's very real.
And it's, it's extremely hard when
you're a passionate young filmmaker
to go to film festivals or conventions
or events, networking events, and feel
like you're the low status person there.
And so.
We, we reinforce that by
telling ourselves, well, I
haven't done anything yet.
Well, I'm brand new.
Well, I don't have any experience.
Well, I don't have any connections.
And if you come into an event like
that, or a scenario like that, and you
believe you're a low status person,
that everyone can kind of feel that.
And it's, it's hard to say, but I
want to bring this up because it's
a real thing that happens every time
that you go to one of these events.
So how do you solve that?
If you are young and new and you haven't
done any projects yet, well, you go
in with a mindset of contribution.
How can I help?
And
It may just be that you're
connecting people, right?
Early on.
I remember going, Oh, there's my
business partner was a director.
And part of what I needed to
do was pitch him as well as the
projects we were working on.
And so as I met other producers,
then I would be the connector.
Even though I hadn't done a movie
yet, I could say, Hey, producer that
I met at AFM, you should really meet
Alan because he's a talented director
and that, what that did Was instantly
put myself as a peer of the other
two that I'm connecting, right?
Because I'm saying, Oh, high
status person, producer.
I want to introduce you to
somebody, which means I'm at your
level and I'm able to do that.
And so if you go in with this mindset
of contribution and being willing
to help with whatever other people
need, you raise your status in
your own mind and in their minds.
And I think that's how you approach it.
It's a real thing, there's no avoiding
it, but you make it worse if you
believe that you're low status.
Yes.
Garrett: I think you're right on, Darren.
That's a very good comment.
Very good thought.
One thing that pops into my mind
also on warm introduction is to not.
Miss your chance.
Like you do need to sense when
you are being invited to pitch
and not necessarily invited, but
when it is your turn to step up.
So, you know, Oh, Garrett, that's awesome.
Tell me about your working on, you know,
you can, you can easily downplay that.
Oh, we're just, just staying busy.
Wait, wait, wait, no teeth.
That's your time to pitch.
Tell me what you're working on.
I've got three projects and you know,
whichever one fits, whatever they've been
talking, whatever their interests are.
That's what you want to talk about.
There was a guy, an investor, he invested
in, in one of my projects a few films ago.
And I, I know him from, from church
and he would always come up and
say, Hey, you know, how's it going?
What are you working on?
You know, and I have a rule never to.
Never to take you know,
pitch projects to people at
Which is a, which is a hard, fast rule.
And when I strongly recommend, you
know or any like, you know, family
or church or friends, you know, let's
just keep business and business But
he would always ask me to come up,
you know, and it was a courtesy.
Hey, what's, what's keeping you busy?
What are you working on?
And, you know, finally
he got very specific.
So tell me about the, like, how
does, how does finance work or
how does the money work on that?
You know, it's like, Oh, you know, well,
if once you're tired of throwing away
money elsewhere, then you invest in film.
And I kind of, again, downplayed it.
And then it triggered like, Oh,
he's no, he's genuinely asking me.
And I said, you know, I said, Hey, well,
I typically don't talk about this type
of, you know, investment opportunities
at church, but if you, if you want to do
lunch, if you are sincere, I'd be happy
to take you to lunch and, and, Talk about
the business side of things with you.
And that's exactly what he was asking for.
And it just took me a long time to kind of
figure out, Oh, no, he was setting me up.
He was, he was trying
to invite me to pitch.
I just needed to pick up on that.
Daren: Yeah, that's a perfect segue
into our third and final pitch scenario,
Garrett: it was written.
Daren: which is an invited pitch.
This is when you have done something to
get the awareness of someone who's maybe
interested in learning about your next
thing, and they invite you to pitch that.
They're saying, let's set up a time
and a place to have a conversation
about your next opportunity.
So that might be a pitch meeting at
a network, which you and I have both
kind of had over the last few weeks,
which can talk about, it might be a
lunch from an interested party that
where they say, I want to learn more
about this specific opportunity.
Let's hop on a zoom call.
Let's go to lunch.
Let's.
Do an hour pitch at your house.
That is a scheduled invited scenario.
And I would probably put the
ratio here at like 80 20.
And it's probably like the, the
first five, 10 minutes is 50 50.
And then it quickly transitions
to like 80 20 when they say, all
right, tell me about your thing.
Great.
Now you're in pitch mode and
you have a little bit more time.
I'm of the mind of.
Keep it as short as possible.
Still.
I like the synopsis version rather
than the screenplay version.
There's a great book.
That's a resource that I recommend
to everybody called the three
minute rule by Brant pin Vidic.
And this is a guy who sold the biggest
loser and 300 other TV shows and
became like the master pitcher at in
Hollywood for TV, reality TV shows.
It's a great book.
Three minute rule means don't pitch
for longer than three minutes.
And it's really hard to get a
nice tight pitch in three minutes.
It takes a lot of work, but if you do that
work and maybe I can just quickly share
my experience that I had at a network,
a mutual friend of ours invited me.
I ran into him at lunch one
day and he came up and he said,
You need to come pitch me.
Okay.
Like I'm happy to, he knew that the two
movies we'd just done, he'd come to our
premiere and he said, come pitch me.
I want to know what ideas you have.
So we scheduled a time with his
assistant and last week we had a pitch.
So I went in with an outline
of a three minute pitch.
And when he said, all right,
tell me about what you got.
I went through.
Three minute pitch number one.
And then we talked about it.
So that's where the 80, 20 comes in.
It was like a hundred percent me
for three minutes, but then the next
20 minutes was back and forth him
asking me, well, what about this?
And tell me more about this idea.
And what about this?
And what he's doing in that scenario
is what do you like to work with?
Are you, are you high on ego?
Are you going to be a terror to work with
as a producer or is this a collaboration?
And are we going to work
together as it can be fun?
Are we jamming?
So you're kind of feeling
the room out that way.
But keep your pitch short and then leave
plenty of time for Q and A, because that's
really where I think you sell people.
The idea can always change, but if,
if you suck in the room to talk to
in 20 minutes, they're not going to
want to start a financial relationship
with you funding a project of yours.
Garrett: I've been in
that I've been on that.
Side of things, Darren,
where I was invited to pitch.
This was an invited pitch.
I was so excited at the
meeting and everything.
And it was very early on in my
career and I wanted them to know
that I knew this show in and out.
This was a series that I was pitching
to a network and I had probably
a 27 page, you know, keynote.
That I was going to get through and there
was plenty of text and graphics and fonts
and lots of stuff and information and
budgets and locations and everything.
And I'm into, I probably got
to page seven in my pitch.
They were very, very patient with me
looking at the table and they're kind
of looking at their phones or looking
at each other and kind of rolling their
eyes and thinking, Oh man, I got to.
I got to double down.
I'm not selling this very well, you know?
And finally, after page eight, they're
like, okay, we don't like, and they
just like fully interrupted the, the
pitch, thankfully, and my, I, I wasn't
by myself, I was with a partner and
We, we knew we had just kind of messed
up and that, that opportunity was lost.
And so your advice is spot on, like,
Hey, give us three minutes, tell
us what we want to know real quick.
And then let's talk, let's just
ask questions, stuff like that.
You're not don't, don't fill a
full hour with, with one idea.
Daren: No, definitely not.
If you have 30 minutes, you know, it's
five minutes of getting to know you and
some repartee and like, how's the weather
out there and where are you calling from
and getting to know you a little bit.
And then it's five minutes
of pitching or less.
And then it's 20 minutes
of Q and a and let's jam.
I, for me, that has been ubiquitous.
Like every time I've had a good pitch
meeting, it's followed that kind of
structure because you don't want to hop on
a call and be like, Hey, how's it going?
So let me dive into this, right?
Like that's.
Too abrupt.
You need a few minutes to ease into it.
They may have come off a stressful
call or may have just got out
of the car and they rushed in.
They need a minute.
Feel them out.
Just be like, Hey, you winded.
What's up?
Do you get to come back from the gym?
Make a joke, you know, build some rapport.
Like it's okay.
And be, and just show your personality.
Don't be someone you're not.
Don't turn on pitch mode and be
like, hi, so my name's Darren and
we're going to talk about film.
I'm like, that's not
good either because then.
When that person doesn't show up the
next time they're gonna be like, Oh,
you were just putting on a show for me.
That's not great.
You can turn up your personality 10%,
but don't don't become someone else.
And then have a really solid pitch where
you download the big idea in three to
five minutes where they go, Oh, I get it.
I know what this is.
And now that I know what
it is, I have questions.
And if they have questions, that
means they're interested, which
means you can keep talking.
A
Garrett: I think there's
value two things come to mind.
I think there's value.
And then once that is done,
once that meeting is over, make
sure you have a leave behind.
Like you know, a pass out, make sure
that they have some sort of physical
element that they're going to take
back to their office is going to sit
on their desk for a couple of weeks.
It's always going to kind of be there.
They're going to move it
from one pilot to the next.
And it's always there.
But when you follow up, you know, in
your email, Hey, or, you know, just
thanks again for letting me come pitch.
Wanted to follow up or whatever it is.
It's right there and they know it.
The other thing is that you are
taking that time in an invited
pitch to get a sense of who you're,
who you might be working with and
make sure that that's a mutually
agreeable relationship I've been in.
And, and that the expectations are there.
I've been to an invited pitch
and gone in and presented.
You know, done, done the three
minute thing and started talking.
And, you know, this was a, for an
independent and it was kind of a
faith based movie and one that I
felt very passionate about and they
started talking about like, okay,
well, let's talk about numbers.
You know, how do we do, you know, Napoleon
dynamite did 45 million at the box office.
And at that point I'm done.
Like, I don't want to say, you know,
if that's their expectation, they say,
look, you want lightning in a bottle.
I can't provide that for you.
You know, and it's very much
casual you know, cordially thing.
Okay.
They, they, you know, this, this
individual or this organization
doesn't know enough about film
for me to make a film and manage
their expectation and so forth.
We all want that.
Great.
But to go in with a pitch saying that
that's going to happen, that that's not an
individual or an organization that you'd.
You'd want to really be selling.
So take a chance to kind of
feel them to sense if they are a
good organization to work with.
Daren: hundred percent.
It should be, you should be doing that.
That's where the 80, 20 plays in, right?
If it's a hundred percent you
and 0 percent them, that's like
presenting at a keynotes, right?
Where you're no interaction
with the audience.
You're just presenting a
hundred percent of the time.
Then you walk off stage.
That's fine, but it's
not a great pitch because
Garrett: Oh, it's going to
lead to a lot of cold calls.
Daren: exactly.
So one other thing I'm, I'm actually
curious, I want to Double click, so
to speak on this idea of a lead behind
because you could spend a ton of time
creating visuals, creating a sizzle reel,
create a writing a script, whatever it is.
And I have progressively over my
career become less likely to do
the full thing up front and just
start with the minimum viable pitch,
meaning sometimes that's a log line.
I sold.
Not sold, but I brought on an executive
producer onto a project from a log line.
I said, Hey, I've got a movie about this
thing that happened, this true story.
And it's kind of this
movie meets this movie.
And she said, who else
have you told about this?
I said, nobody, you're the first one.
She said, great.
Don't tell anyone else about this.
I want it.
It's like off a log line, right?
So if you do enough work on the smallest
minimum viable thing, You can get to
the next stage, which is being paid for
development to write the script, right?
So there's, again, early in
your career, you're not going
to get those opportunities.
So you need to write the
full script and that's fine.
But I went in with some bullet
point outlines on my laptop that I
was reading from my laptop to this
friend of ours that I was pitching.
And that was fine.
I didn't need to have visuals.
I didn't need to have the show Bible.
I didn't need to have.
Four, four seasons mapped out.
I didn't need any of that stuff because
it's just, let's talk about the idea
and see if this is even something
that makes sense at this network.
Oddly enough, the other thing I
pitched, I had even less of an outline.
I had an idea, which was kind of
like an expanded logline version.
And I said, here's the show in a
nutshell, it's this and this, and
this is what happens in an episode.
And he goes, wow, that's super cool.
I don't think it fits our mandate, but if
you want to pitch that at NBC, I have it.
Connections there.
And I'm happy to pass along a pitch deck.
Well, I don't have a pitch
deck, but guess what?
I'm working on a pitch deck because if I
can get a pitch deck in front of NBC and
they're interested in it, that's cool.
Why, why wouldn't I take that opportunity?
Right?
So I'm kind of.
Not anti leave behinds.
I'm anti spending tons of time and money.
Like, I wouldn't want to spend
10 or 50 grand on a short sizzle
going into a pitch meeting.
Like, that's money out of pocket
that I don't think increases my
chance of getting the show made.
Garrett: sure.
Daren: What do you think though?
Garrett: No, I think you're 100%.
I think the leave behind is
the one sheet or some sort of
write up or here's my card.
I just got somebody engaged me to develop
a feature and I on their first you know,
they said, Hey, we're just going to mail
you whatever the, the initial payment.
And the only thing in the envelope What's
the payment and a card, a business card.
I'm like, Oh, well, I'm curious.
This is interesting.
And, you know, so I'm looking at that
card, but it's something, you know,
physical, tangible leave behind that
keeps, you know, it's on my desk now.
And it reminds me to keep
their project front of mind.
Daren: I should have left a bit.
didn't.
Garrett: You, you, you, what's that?
Oh, you
Daren: have left a business card.
I didn't do that
Garrett: You, you did say something,
and I think it's a perfect way to
kind of wrap up this, this episode.
You talked about whether, you
know, it leading to what, like,
what is the purpose of a pitch?
And I think that that's an important
thing, whether it's a cold call, the
warm introduction, or the invited
pitch to have in your mind, what
What the, what the call to action is.
What's the takeaway?
What are we hoping to
accomplish cold call?
I am hoping to accomplish a
meeting like the warm introduction.
I'm hoping to get to a pitch point.
Right.
And ultimately in, in a pitch, we're
hoping for development money or an
action to be taken so that we can
move a project into the next phase.
Daren: a hundred percent.
Garrett: I think that that
should be clear at the end.
If it gets to that point where
you're like, Hey, this feels right.
We're both on the same page.
What is the next step?
You don't go, okay, there's my ideas.
Hope to hear from you.
So what is the next step?
So I'm going to be working
on this project for a week.
I can't put a lot of time into it
until there's development funds.
If it's something you're interested in,
can you let's, let's follow up in a week.
Yeah,
Daren: think it's different for every
scenario because as part of your pitch,
you need to know what the ask is.
And so.
Whether it's a social pitch, whether it's
the introduction pitch, whether it's the
cold pitch, like it doesn't matter which
one, but you need to know what, what is
the one question that you want a yes to.
And so part of the pitch is, man, I'd
love to get lunch with this person,
or I'd love to come on their podcast.
Like that's what happened this morning.
So for me, if I could get on
this podcast, then we're going
to have a long conversation.
That's kind of lacking
any sort of charge to it.
There's, there's no ask for me.
It's just, I'm coming on your show.
We're going to have a cool conversation.
And with that extra context, then
I could be like, Hey, if you want
to grab lunch and talk more about
this, but he actually skipped that
and said, we need to grab lunch.
Right.
So that was the ultimate goal is like
me sitting down with him and a really
like neutral environment and saying,
let's talk about what each other are
working on, how we can help each other.
That's awesome because I know he's
connected to lots of people that
I want to be connected to.
The same thing with the scheduled pitch,
the invited pitch over at the network.
Like, yeah, the next step is, yes,
we want to move forward with this.
That doesn't necessarily mean we want
to give you a 10 episode season order.
It may be, we want to
develop this with you.
We want you, we want to pay you.
To do a, a pitch, you know, a more
developed characters and storyline
and themes and all this kind of stuff
like, okay, so that's kind of what
I was looking for from that one.
And that's what we got.
We got an invitation to send over
a writeup and they're going to pass
it around and they're interested
in kind of moving to the next
step, but that hasn't happened yet.
So we're waiting, we're in limbo.
So the last thing I'll say too,
is don't just pitch one person.
And then don't pitch anyone else.
Like you can't put all
your eggs in one basket.
Like we were talking about, maybe
you have to do a hundred cold
outreaches to get one response.
And maybe you need to get 10 introductions
or 10 initial conversations in order
to get one scheduled or invited pitch.
And maybe you're going to need
to do two pitches to get one.
Deal or one?
Yes.
Or one next step.
That's probably pretty high.
It's probably more like five
to 10 of those to get one.
Yes.
So you have to be kind of zooming out and
going, yes, you're a creative person and
you want to be doing art all the time.
But if you want to have a business
that supports your art full
time, you have to understand the
numbers that are at play here.
And it's a bit of a numbers game.
And if you're just doing cold
calling, it's a V it's a volume game.
If you're doing invited pitches,
you're spending more time,
you're spending more effort.
And you're going to try to do
as many of those as it takes to
get your project moving forward.
Garrett: much good
information here, Darren.
I'm, I'm learning a lot hearing what
you're saying and I'm remembering
mistakes I've made and I cannot wait
to continue to pitch ideally to get
a project moved into the next phase,
which is like paid development.
Daren: Yeah.
Well, and it's not because I'm smart.
It's because I also made those
mistakes and learned from them.
So we've both gone through all of
these things, cringe, cringy things and
successful things, all of them together.
Ah, well, I really hope that's helpful.
And if you liked this episode, please it
with people, share it with your business
partners, your collaborators, your mom.
I don't care, but like share it
around because people need to hear it.
To understand how this stuff works.
And I think it's super valuable that
we've put these three in one episode.
Garrett: Yes.
And and send us your
questions or your experiences.
What is, what are your
horror stories of pitching?
You know, what mistakes have
you made or success stories?
Those are probably more fun to
say, Hey, I pitched an idea in an
elevator and got a gig out of it.
So we'd love to hear those go to our
website and and share your comments,
Daren: Three coin pro.
com slash podcast.
Go, go, go, go.
Awesome, man.
I think that's a good one.
It's good to see you.
Garrett: Hey, looking forward
to chatting next week.
Thanks, Darren.
Good luck.
Thank you for listening to this
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