Hi, welcome to another episode of Found, a conversation at the intersection of Christian faith and culture, where we always aim to find Jesus in the way we react and respond to our world. My name is Linda Tokar, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Brandon Bathau. This is the third in our series that explores how Jesus followers engage in the public sphere. In episode two, we explored the approach we called separation as faithfulness. In this episode, we turn our attention to an approach that has been called the two kingdoms view or the sacred secular divide. Now, the Gallup study that I quoted last time highlighted the challenge that many believers face as they approach an election. It told us that 57% dislike all the major candidates. And 55% of those questioned feel like none of the candidates reflect their most important views. Believers find themselves torn between deeply held beliefs on one side and the options in front of them on the other. So this view tries to make sense of that divide. Now as we saw last time, none of these is a fringe view or even a new view. Each of these approaches has roots in Christian history. And there's support for each. So, let's jump in. Brandon, how would you explain the sacred secular or two kingdoms approach?
All right. Yeah, this is a fun one and sometimes is left out of a very simple kind of spectrum of engage or don't engage,
right?
This is a really fun I think um maybe a third way.
Okay.
And uh the way we can think about this is a foot in both worlds.
So, imagine the two circles kingdom God, kingdom of this world. They aren't like the separation view where they're super far apart,
right?
They're not overlapping like they are in the transformationalist view. They are kind of nearby. They're kind of like neighbors and you have a foot in each two worlds, two different languages, two different sets of uh values and epistemologies and ethics. And you get the fun of living in both. Right? So, uh they don't overlap. Like when you're at church doing Christian things, when you're in your small group or a Bible study, when you're in services, when you're worshiping God,
you've got the foot in the kingdom of God
circle. Then you're out in public, you're at work, you're in certain social settings, you're voting, whatever. Then you are in the kingdom of this world with a totally different set
of values and virtues. Now, this view would say God reigns over all of it.
They just have different roles and purposes that God is using the church and government as two distinct realms.
Yeah. And it's not that you aren't a Christian when you're in the world spaces. You're just not expecting the world to act like the church.
That's right. Right.
Yep.
Okay.
Okay. So, if somebody holds this view, what would be some of the things you'd hear them saying? So, uh, they'd say something like, well, faith guides my personal choices, but politics, you know, that's that's business.
Or I engage in politics as a citizen, but then my spiritual life, that's that's my private that's my private life.
Um, I'll follow Jesus in my private life and in church, but I don't expect the government or my workplace to operate like the church,
right?
Um, I did that social media poll with my friends and uh asked, "Hey, how do you engage in politics during this season?" And this option was listed as I'm focused on my faith values, not politics.
Right?
So, you see those are two different things. I've got my faith values over here.
Y
I've got politics over there. And 36% of my friends said, "Yeah, I that that's that's me. That's how I'm engaging in this." Like, I got my political world over there, but mostly right now I'm focused on my faith and my values.
Yeah. So, it's kind of a both and. It's like I compartmentalize just a little bit so I can consider policies and their impact on the world, but without becoming maybe bogged down by the fact that maybe I don't like the actual person that I'm voting for. Or I may be able to look past a candidate's stance on one thing I disagree with so I can vote for another issue that's important to me. I just kind of put them in two camps so I can engage with one without really compromising the other.
That's right. So like a famous line in a person who's at the voting box with this view would be like, I'm choosing the lesser of two evils.
I'm wanting to support a candidate that, you know, will bring justice and structure to government,
but then, you know, I, you know, they may not share the same faith as I do or, you know, I may disagree with who that, like their character, but I'm voting in the governmental realm with governmental virtues and values of, you know, good Judeo-Christian ethics and virtue and structure and all of that.
That's what's guiding my voting. Just like in the public sphere, it's like, well, you know, even at work, what I'm hoping to do, it's not necessarily that I view my work as like deeply tied to my faithfulness as doing God's work in the world,
you know,
like I do that stuff through my church and then I go to work and the way I'm faithful to God is, you know, just whatever I do, do it as if I'm doing it for God,
right?
And so, you know, I'm helping contribute to the common good by being a good pilot or being a good teacher. And the best way I can be faithful to God is simply by doing a good job.
Yeah.
At my job.
I love it.
Yeah. Exactly.
So where do we see this view or this approach emerge in Christian thinking?
Yeah. So uh some of the influential thinkers in this the the most influential thinker uh would be Martin Luther. In fact the uh this view is often called the two kingdoms theology which is really what he uh developed
articulating need for Christians to engage with secular authority while acknowledging that the spiritual realm is something different. Uh he wrote in a writing called on secular authority. That's a good title.
Yeah.
God has ordained two governments. The spiritual by which the Holy Spirit produces Christians and righteous people under Christ and the secular or temporal which restrains the uncchristian and wicked so that they are obliged to keep the peace of outwardly. So you see two governments, two different purposes.
Government of God and the church, government of the world and the state.
Mhm.
Um some people would put Augustine of Hippo or Augustine depending on how hip you want to be. Um and his writing on the city of God which is just this amazing seinal work um around the city of God versus the city of man.
And look there it's it's such a complex and writing and I have to admit I've not read all of it. Um, but some people would put this um as kind of a philosophical foundation of separating and distincting u making distinct secular and sacred and it makes sense because Luther was an Austinian monk before the Persian Reformation.
There you go.
Um, another writer more common um, a guy named David Van Dunan uh, wrote a book recently called Living in God's Two Kingdoms. Again, very helpful. title. Uh he wrote, "Christians live within the civil kingdom. They participate in its activities and they recognize its God-given authority, but they do not expect it to be the place where the fullness of Christ's kingdom is realized."
I think that's significant because I think the United States is not a theocracy. It is not even a truly Christian nation apart from the founders and the men that they were and the values that they built into our founding document. It is not today a Christian nation. So if we expect it to act like one, we're just going to be frustrated. So we have to recognize the world that we live in for what it is.
Yeah. I would say a lot of the um if you look at history and if in the next episode you'll hear a a slight caveat on this, but um the very early Christian founders, William Penn, Roger Williams, some of the initial like pilgrims that came over,
I think they would probably fit a bit more into the transformationalist view.
Sure.
Um but by the time you have the constitution and the um the continental congress and the constitutional convention in 1787, uh that you uh you have a group of thinkers that I think would be very much in this two kingdoms view of separating church and state which is a major part of what America is founded on that you have the church,
right?
And you have the state and they're two different things and they should stay in their lane, right? They shouldn't one shouldn't jump into the other.
The church shouldn't over influence politics, but more so the heart of separation of church and state was that the state would stay out of the church.
Exactly.
And so, uh, that's a lot of the heart. Stay in your lane, do your job,
and, uh, and we'll get along just fine.
Yep. Yeah. For sure. So, how does the Bible speak to this approach? What verses or stories are helpful here?
Yeah. So, um I think just story-wise, if you look at Daniel, if you look at um Joseph um not the the husband of Mary, but um Joseph and the colored coat.
Yes. Yes.
Amazing technicolor dream coat.
Exactly. That's right. Thank you. Um so, these would be characters who walked this Well, right, they were faithful to God
in that space, but then they were interacting as people who were involved in government. Yep.
For these uh nations, for Babylon and Egypt, which were kind of enemies of Israel
and not kind of like enemies
for sure. And
I mean, under Joseph,
he helped give food to Israel. So maybe they were friends at that point. But all that to say, they walk this line well of okay, I'm over here, I'm being faithful to God, and then I jump into government and I'm going to be a faithful
government employee and do my job over here and just do it well.
Yeah.
Um, so that would be that piece. I think the main uh passage around this would be the the famed Romans 13 1-7. Linda, you want to read that for us?
Sure. Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God. And those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval. For it is God's agent for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid. For the authority does not bear the sword in vain. It is the agent of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore, one must be subject not only because of wrath, but also because of conscience. For the same reason, you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God's agents, busy with this very thing. Pay to all what is due them. Taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
Right? So you see this passage is um is Paul writing and again this came up a lot during COVID, right? This passage was a really focused passage where a lot of people were asking
what do we do with government um intervention and um government mandates? What do we do with all of that? And this passage um was often quoted from this camp
saying well
you have the government and its job has been given to them by God, by these authorities. And so, and their job is to, you can see this, right, to use authority to generally bring some level of structure, to bring wrath to the wrongdoer, to
um help those who are doing good to be celebrated. This is how you build a society that's generally going to be functional.
Mh.
And uh and so our job is let it keep doing its thing and roll with it and don't be contrary to that authority. Again, hard for the American founders to do when they were declaring independence from authority.
Right. Right. Right.
Um so that's a hard hard point here. But um basically therefore one must be subject and you can see this idea of um that the government has the sword.
Mhm.
And so in early um like medieval history you had this separation of the uh the church. The leader of the church had the scepter which was like the the spiritual authority
and then the government leader had the sword.
Um so the scepter and the sword. Now again what happened with Christendom
in medieval uh Europe is that you had this fusion of
secular authority uh governmental authority and religious authority.
And so the the popes at that time would say well I have both the scepter and the sword
right
I represent all authority. And we can see Luther we'll talk about in a little bit how he tries to fight against that but Generally, this person would say, "Well, okay, the government can keep things in order, and then the church can do what it's supposed to do, which is to like pray for people and help people see the light and train people up into the ways of Jesus and call people to repentance and lead them into eternity with him." So, as long as the government can hold things in order and do their job, then the church should do its job.
Yep. Makes sense.
Uh, another passage on this one, um, we'll just jump in one more is, again, we'll do this with every view. Matthew 22. 17-22 uh the uh the groups of leaders are wanting to trap Jesus. They say tell us then what is your opinion Jesus is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? Jesus knowing their evil intent said you hypocrites. Why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax. They brought him a daenerius. He asked them whose image is this and whose inscription? Caesars's. They replied. Then he said to them, so give back to Caesar what is Caesar. and to God what is God's. When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away. This view says pay taxes. It's a good thing. Jesus said, "Look, you got Caesar's world, you got the Caesar's empire, and then you got God's kingdom." And the reality is we're living in both. And that passage in Romans 13, you may say, "But do you know how bad our leaders are right now?" And Paul wrote this likely under the reign of Nero to the church in Rome. And so, uh, yeah, he knew how bad leaders could be
and he still said those things.
I would say that Nero was actually worse than what it is we're living under. So, for perspective,
there are no Christians being burned to light up
the president's garden. So, um, until that happens, Nero's worse.
Yeah, he wins. But again, in this passage, we're seeing sort of that both and way that you were just describing. where you participate in the system you're a part of and you continue to walk faithfully with God. So, and so with these passages in view, what kind of thinking or conclusions does this lead to?
Yeah. So, um I think first off, it really does highlight the importance of each kingdom's unique roles.
Uh you got secular wisdom and governance and then you have spiritual truths and church leadership. Mhm.
Those are two different things. If I'm a pastor, I should totally stay out of that stuff, you know, besides being a good citizen and making sure I vote and, you know, maybe volunteer as somebody in my city or something like that, just as a citizen. Um, and so it says, look, you do your job well, we'll do our job well, and God will work through all of it.
Um,
it acknowledges that these two different spheres are spheres that God uses. So that's really interesting. So
yeah,
in some other view, you may say, well, if you're a pastor, then you're really doing God's work, but in any other sphere, you know, you're kind of like busy doing other things, and
the really important stuff is the stuff that, you know, is part of the church. And this view actually says, no, you're part of contributing to the common good. That's part of God's will. Yeah.
You're just working within the kingdom of this world, but you're still carrying out God's will there by doing good and bringing order and structure and goodness. So, it uplifts that And Luther was one of the first people who broke that um that way of viewing things of like if you really want to be faithful, serve as a pastor in the church.
If you want to be less than faithful, serve somewhere else. And Luther was like, wait a second, no, both are really important. God uses both aspects.
Um I think uh historically we can understand uh it always helps when you put this in context. of when these views emerge. As we mentioned last time, the clock determines the play.
And so, as you're thinking about uh which view you want to be wrestling with,
think about where we are in history. And it may help us go, oh, there's some really good wisdom from this view that I want to pull from. So, this view is usually what has happened when the church has emerged from being persecuted
and they're part of something very, very strong and they want to be able to work together with that where they're not going to go back to being persecuted, right?
They don't think, "Oh, we can we can take this over and engage fully." So, think about the early church. So, it's persecuted under Nero.
All this horrible stuff happens. Then Constantine has this crazy conversion experience
and um he comes over and he says, "Hey, what if we work together?
Do you want to you want to be friends?"
You'd have to be crazy to be a Christian at that point and be like, "No, I want you to keep killing my family. like that's not going to work. So it makes sense then that the Christians go, "Yeah, let's talk about how you can do your role as the emperor and we'll do our role as a church that now isn't illegal."
Right?
Um the edict of Milan in 313. This is an amazing moment. So that's one aspect. Um
and then you know this is what I think the Sadducees were kind of involved with there in um Jesus's time
where you have their own empire. They are wanting to be involved in temple sacrifice and they're like, "Okay, we'll get some temple tax. That will help support and make Jerusalem a little bit nicer. That will make the Roman governors a little bit happier." And so there was this kind of partnership of we're we'll do our part, you do your part, let's not let's stay in our own lanes.
But it also allowed them to continue practicing
because the
the um risk for them Rome just didn't want any they didn't want any scuffle any uprising. And so, as long as they played nice,
they got to continue to worship and to continue to live out all of their Jewish festivals and all of those things as long as they kept the peace. And so, yeah, played nice.
And this has been the case with Christianity for a while because we actually follow a Bible that talks about living a quiet life.
Yeah.
You know, a quiet life of service in our community and not necessarily always supposed to be revolutionaries. And so, it would make sense that a government and say, "All right, if you are serving people and helping them fight anxiety and worry and
learn to live as faithful, loving neighbors, like go ahead, do your stuff and we'll stay out of your way."
Well, it actually reminds me a little bit of all the food distribution the churches did coming out of CO
because the churches had the army of volunteers.
Yep.
And the churches had the connections in the community and they got out there and the cities just kind of let them go.
Yeah.
And everybody played nice and people got fed and it was amazing and it was like, "Oh, no, you can't do that. It's No, they there was a symbiosis there. It was a good working together."
Exactly.
Serving the city that we all lived in.
Mhm. And the government supported us when we when we needed it
and said, "We're behind you and we love you." And then we were like, "Hey, and we love you and we want to help serve the city." And it was a really good partnership that can happen in this view of two kingdoms.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Um And then you you think about uh where this took on greater flesh was under Luther, which again you think about that season when you had the scepter and the sword in the hands of the religious ruler at the time.
And that level of intertwining of those um those authorities resulted in some really gross times in
uh medieval history and a lot of corruption in the church. So you can see why Luther then goes, "Wait a a second. What if we separated those back as they should be?
Yeah.
Reading this passage in Romans, for example, and be like, look, governing authorities, that's something different than letting churches then do what they're meant to do.
Sure.
And so, let's separate these two things out.
Love it. Yeah.
Love it. So, what does this approach look like as we're heading into an election season?
Yeah. So, it often leads to a very pragmatic approach.
A lot of kind of uh discernment. Um, you know, if the separation view I use the word holiness as the like heart of it.
Um, and the transformationalist view is maybe like hope. This would be something like discernment.
Um, so very pragmatic and Christians may prioritize party affiliation or policies that align with their secular values rather than necessarily their faith.
Um, there's the tendency to debate the lesser of two evils rather than seeking candidates who like they must reflect my Christian values. Um, Um it unlike the separation view really does encourage active participation in the ways of culture and society.
Um but it maintains a personal faith identity that is separate from political ideology.
So this person would look and be like you because you are a rep Republican you're a Christian or because you're a liberal you're a you know a Democrat you're a Christian they like I that doesn't make sense to me,
right? Those are different things,
different categories. I got Christianity over here and then my political ideology is over here.
Mhm. Mhm.
Um now this person to be fair as they're walking into a season like this may feel moments of cognitive dissonance like
in this part of my life I have these values but then
at the pullbox I do this you know or like and on this issue I may disagree with what I'm voting for in my religious space, but I think it's better for society. Yeah.
So, that can create bits of cognitive dissonance that can be hard to reconcile.
Mhm.
Um I think there can be stress that comes from that type of thing
of kind of contrasting expectations from your faith communities, but then secular society and you do feel like you're in between both worlds.
Yeah.
Rather than just like a foot in each.
Um but you can also have clarity of conscience. of like I know this is a completely different thing. So as I vote for these issues,
Mhm.
it's okay. I don't have to vote to make sure that um this person perfectly reflects my Christian values. Hey, if they're going to help the government do its job better, then I'll vote for them.
Yeah, absolutely. So let's jump into the strengths and weaknesses. What are the strengths of the sacred secular or two kingdoms approach?
Well, first off, I think it um it does well to guard against um Christendom.
You know, I think there's that tendency again towards um kind of a Christian nationalism, which is a phrase that's thrown around. I think Christian nationalism shows on the left o and the right
y
where it's basically that fusing of political and religious authority gets so intertwined and intermingled things get very unclear and messy.
Um and it's this idea that we're like moving our country back. We're taking it back. Um I think this creates a really good hedge around that to say no no I understand government has its part and then my faith has its part and these are two different things. So I think that's a huge strength around this.
I think it uh offers a framework for a really respectful coexistence in a pluralistic society,
which ours is.
Yeah. It allows for believers to engage without compromising their faith of just like, "Yeah, this is great." And I can um I can align with actually a lot of um societal values and things that culture may be offering
at a dinner party. I can have views that don't immediately make me stand out as a total crazy person um or feel like a crazy person.
I can actually generally agree with a lot of people but then I still have my faith.
Um so it feels like I can kind of do both and
um
I think it uplifts all public work as supporting the common kingdom which is I think a huge thing whether it's running a business or being a police officer. This is keeping the wheels turning and in God's mind that's a that's a good thing.
Um and then it also under understands, you know, you can't legislate morality,
right?
Um, it understands the difference between laws and the heart. And so, you know, you'll hear this sometimes from pastors of like, yeah, politics, like, go ahead and vote. That's good, but we're going to be focused on the kingdom of God.
That's what we're going to do as a church. And I think it orders things, I think, in a healthier way where my politics is not first on my list,
right,
as a Christian, it's down a few levels.
Um, as far as importance and what I give my heart to. So it fights against the religion of politics.
That's good.
Um that can sometimes take over Christians hearts.
Yeah, that that's super helpful. So what would you say would be the weaknesses or blind spots that mo might be associated with this?
Well, first off, um this is kind of a challenge to one of the strengths points, but you know, the idea of like I could be at a dinner party and I could get along really well with everybody. Um that temptation can often cause us to bury our faith and our values
and what it is that Jesus actually calls us to be and do.
Yeah.
And um this view I think can be a nice cover. It can make our faith private and personal rather than something that should like infuse all of life.
It's that salt and light thing again.
Yeah, that's
and it's hard to be salt and light when we repress everything about us that doesn't align with the people around us.
That's right.
So, it's it's a balance.
Yeah. In in that way, we would say the salt is probably not salty,
right?
Um that would be a weakness or a challenge of this. Um Matthew 28:18-20,
the great commission is interesting because here's what Jesus says right before he ascends to the father. He says, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Notice that. All authority,
governmental, spiritual, religious, public, secular authority is on Jesus. And what does he then tell his people to do with that authority? Therefore, go and build nice consistent governmental structures where societies just generally function fine. No. Go and disciple all nations. Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father. Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I've commanded you. So, you could say this is um specifically given to the church, but Jesus is in charge of all and that statement of all authority has been given to me. This is what I want you to do with it.
That's a challenge with this view. Um maybe this view in its
seeking to compartmentalize and make clean system, Jesus often challenges those things.
So, Um yeah, I think the main the main challenge is just lacking the integration of what it means to fully follow Jesus.
Uh this can be reduced into a very dualistic mindset and
Jesus and my following of Jesus is in that box over there and it's closed up. And every once in a while, every Sunday, I open that box,
right?
But then once Sunday is over, I close that box, put it on the shelf, and pull out a different box. Man, It's really tough to then say, well, your faith is meant to be a Monday through Saturday thing, too, when our political philosophy actually is, well, you got kingdom of God over here, kingdom of this world over here. You got a foot in each.
Um, man, that's really hard to think as an integrated Christian. Um, when I can't bring kingdom of God values and virtues into,
right,
the way I think about politics.
Right. Right.
Um, that's a really, really hard one. Um, and then Then I think the uh the separatist view separation view would say like hey you are you are too easily seeking cultural acceptance
and maybe your views are being so corrupted that you aren't standing out at all like you're perpetuating the systems of evil
right
uh in this world the powers and principalities you're playing into
their systems
by just kind of standing by and not reclaiming it for Jesus.
So, yeah, what would it look like, I think, if you're in this camp to seek coherence between your beliefs and your actions in this space uh where you can make intentional choices that reflect the heart of Jesus in every sphere of life?
Yeah.
What does that look like?
So, what does it look like to live faithfully as a follower of Jesus who embraces the sacred secular divide? What does that look like then?
So I think starting out if you are in this view I think there is great good that you can teach the rest of the church.
I think rightfully you can understand the role of the church. Too often we as Christians can kind of hang our Christianity on this policy we want to advocate for
or as an excuse to completely get out of anything. thing that has to do with politics and um this view is a beautiful encouragement to say you can you can do both.
Yeah.
Um you can understand the powerful role of your life as a Christian privately and personally and can engage in the world around you uh to seek its common good. Um I wonder in this view if we are If we are too comfortable living with a divided heart
in what is meant to be a unified kingdom and we can end up loving the kingdom of this world and its systems in a way with a heart that doesn't love God first
but leans a lot on that. Um I think it also is really hard to be lights in the darkness um if our faith remains locked behind church doors.
Yeah.
You know, if that's the only place I let my quote unquote private faith out is when I'm doing Christiany things.
Mhm.
Um I don't know if the kingdom of God fully uh is encapsulated in that. Um and I think sometimes we can be surrendering our convictions for the sake of cultural acceptance.
Yeah.
Um so, uh so I think this view just a couple questions for us. to to wrestle with as you reflect on this view. Uh if you are not in this view but are intrigued by it and this is like oh that actually could be a helpful way forward. Um here's I think what this view can offer us as Jesus followers in this space. It can give us this question. Where have you put too little or too much trust in government in policies in legislation? to see God's kingdom come. How can you lean into this view to rightly order the role of God's gathered people in the church versus the governmental systems?
So what if we could rightly order the the power and good and role of what the church should be doing so easy for us to kind of let the church become just a vehicle of social justice and we pick up what other whatever is the new cool advocacy issue and we make that what our pulpits are focused on and we forget about focusing on Jesus and his very precise work of seeing his kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.
As we lean into this view, it helps us clarify what the church is doing
and helps us uh keep ourselves from falling off into being the church of the right or the church of the left.
Right
now, if you are really influenced by this view and you recognize, yeah, I am happy to vote for people that don't align with my Christian values because they'll help the society do a little bit better. If that's where you're kind of at and you're thinking, oh, well, that this person or that policy will just help systems of government run better.
Um, I would challenge you, what ways can Jesus be Lord of more? We talked about this in the last episode, a phrase that just keeps coming to me
and I keep wrestling with in the end Jesus is meant to be Lord of all,
right?
And he will make that happen. Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess that he is Lord. Um and in our lives, we get the choice to surrender to his
redeeming and freeing work. And so, um I think that's the role of us as Christians is to allow him to be lord of more. And every day I think, how can I make you lord of more? more. And if you're in this camp, what would it look like to invite his reign and rule to be integrated more? Even if that makes things less politically correct or
a little bit more uncomfortable, what does it look like for him to be lorded of more in your life, even in the mess? In fact, here's my challenge to you as you go to the pullbox or weigh in on this or that political topic. pick at a dinner party or with a neighbor or with a friend, what would it look like for you to pause and ask God if he has anything specific to say or anything he wants to do in you or through you in this moment? What if you gave him a voice
in that decision? Lord of more. So that's what we got for today for this uh for this view. The two kingdoms uh the sacred secular divide.
As always, the references and recommendations for books and everything will be in the show notes. We love you and we'll see you next time. This is a Saddleach Church podcast.