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Thoughts on online work, dependability, tools, and craft
Philip: Hey, I'm Philip Thomas, founder
of Contraption Company, a product
studio crafting tools for online work.
In this podcast, I share a mix
of conversations and essays about
building a software business.
In today's episode, I talk
with my friend, Ben Weiss.
Ben founded ZCrutes, a software company
for college football recruiting,
which he grew and sold to a PE fund.
Then he switched from software to
creator businesses, leading operations
at Meat Mafia, and now starting
his own consultancy called Velcro.
So I thought it would be fun to talk
shop with him about the differences
between software and creator businesses.
A quick note, if you're not on
the Contraption Company mailing
list, sign up now at Contraption.
co.
There you can learn more about our
products, like booklet and postcard.
Alright, let's get started.
Track 1: How have you been?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215:
I've been good, man.
How about you?
Track 1: Been a busy few months.
What's new with you?
Are you in Austin?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: In Austin.
I've been doing a lot of travel lately.
Um, so I've been jetting around.
Track 1: That's awesome.
The reason I wanted to chat is, You're
someone who's on both the software
side of the house and the creator side.
And I find that interesting because
I think that the software business and
the creator business are so adjacent,
but I feel like each side doesn't really
know each other , and also doesn't
know how to work with the other half
.
But I think that when they
do figure it out, it can be.
Awesome.
So, I know your first company was ZCruit,
which was like a software company.
And then moved on to meet mafia.
Maybe do you want to just give a
quick overview of , what was the crudes
then what happened with meat mafia?
And , what is Velcro now?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: Totally.
Yeah, , ZCruit is a software
company that helps college
football programs find players.
I started that one when I was a
college sophomore, I was working for
my college's football program in the
recruiting department, came up with an
idea for software that I thought would
make our lives easier in the football
recruiting world and, fast forward
two years, by the summer after my
senior year, we had a fully functional
software platform that was being used
by 13 Division 1 football programs,
including USC, Notre Dame, and Clemson.
And so, decided to go full time with
it, after that, and, , up running
that business for seven years.
Sold it to the largest company in the
college sports recruiting industry.
And overall, it turned into a
software platform just to help college
football programs find players in
the most,, Easy and reliable way
and get access to most trusted
data on recruits out there as well.
So that was a fun chapter After that
chapter ended decided that I wanted
to dive into The creator worlds
and that was where my interest and
energy was pulling me towards and so
Signed on to run operations for the
meat mafia, which is a creator brand
that creates content, around diet,
health, nutrition, and the food system.
So, a lot of different spokes
of the business, but started
with a large social following.
They actually started on Twitter, where
they grew to 120, 000 followers . And
then from there started a podcast.
There's a newsletter component.
There's a digital marketing
agency that's tied to it.
A beef based protein powder brand.
That the brand sells as well,
and so I came on and ran the
business side of things there.
Did that for about a year, had a blast
with that, and, now with Velcro,
I'm doing consulting for, creators
and creator brands to help them
grow and monetize, and having a lot
of fun with that too, now working
with several different creators.
Track 1: That's so cool.
So rewinding back to Z Cruz then.
That was a classic enterprise
software company, right?
Like people had a contract, they
paid you, , fixed amount per year.
Is that right?
And did you have salespeople?
How did you do the selling there?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: Yeah,
I sold the first 50, Division 1
football programs myself, and then
brought on a salesperson, brought
on a customer success person
at about the 30 school point.
We had a full software development
team, as well, and so probably
had a core six person team that was
working with us across developers,
customer success and sales.
Track 1: Was there a point where
that business switched from the main
focus being building the product
to becoming focused on sales?
Like you felt like you had a good product.
Yeah.
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: seven
years in when the product was best
in class, best in market, selling
really well, I always felt insecure,
embarrassed about the product.
It was never good enough for where
I wanted it to be, but I would say
probably, Three years in, that was
when sales just got a lot easier.
It started to be like, Oh, we
actually have product market fit.
It was more like pulling teeth or
more relationship based sales at
first, and then just really have you
with customer success just to keep
people happy and to do a lot of just.
manual work or grunt work to keep
customers around, whereas the latter half
of the business, people were genuinely
really pleased and loved the product.
And so it was always a push
to make a product better, and
there were always more evolutions
where I wanted to take products.
But , there was certainly a time where
it was clear we've got product market
fit, now these sales conversations
are just getting a whole lot easier.
. Track 1: And within that product
market fit process, was the journey
to getting there more figuring out
the products to build and building it?
Or was it figuring out the
right way to sell the software?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: I
was definitely on the product side.
Um, I figured out, I definitely was not
great with the sales stuff up front.
, starting off with just heavy demos of
software , . Then, shortly thereafter I
just started asking people questions and I
realized I could sell my software
without even showing people
the software if I was just,
asking the right questions and
having the right conversations.
So.
It definitely was a product thing, and
a lot of that came from effectively
being a solo founder, and, being non
technical myself definitely meant that,
product was more the lagging thing,
for a while with the business, and
it was, first time founder, didn't know
what I was doing, and so over time, And
I wound up cracking the code on that,
surrounding myself with the right people
and getting product to a good spot.
But
there's one, there's the quality
of product, and there's two,
the philosophy around product.
And I
think that probably that three
year end point, that was when we
really started hitting on the right
philosophy of product, of oh, this is
what really matters, what people
really want, what's really
going to move the needle here.
Track 1: So is it fair to say that
you knew how to make money the
entire time, but figuring out how
to get the product right was the
big unlock for growing the business?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: It's tough
because , I bootstrapped the business.
I never raised, right?
I guess I always put making
money at the forefront.
Would I say that I knew,
always knew how to make money?
I wouldn't say that per se, but
I think that I had a software product
and I threw out a number of people over
time paid for that.
And then I worked on, when people weren't
using it or usage would drop off would
have hypotheses around, Hey, why is that?
And.
And, learned a lot from our customers
to develop something that, in conjunction
with them, they really wanted and needed.
And so, yeah, I, I
guess so.
Track 1: Pivoting over to meet mafia.
It wasn't your podcast you were joining,
but I think is it fair to say that you
were joining at a time when they were
breaking out in a way What did that look
like for a creator business to break out?
How is it similar or different
from product market fit?
And when relative to becoming popular,
did they start to become a business
?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215:
Yeah, I joined probably, I must
have been almost a year and a half
into inception of the business.
And probably a year after they
had launched their podcast.
. They started this brand in
probably like December of 2021.
And they were just
creating, Twitter threads.
They were just writing Twitter
threads about health content.
And, they started amassing a
really big following on Twitter.
To the point where within a
couple of months, they were at
tens of thousands of followers.
And so, maybe it was three or
four months after that, they said,
Hey, let's capitalize on this.
Following this platform we have
here, let's start a podcast.
And so, started a podcast there, and
they were just churning out episodes.
So, they were doing three episodes
a week, and meeting with some,
top,, People in this health world,
Particularly in the world of health
that they operated in, which was a more
holistic health carnivore diet space.
They did have a following and audience
on the podcast, but a lot of that too
was around just help them just use
their network in such a powerful way.
Like they wound up getting these like,
big players in the health space to really.
Fall into their network and because
of that, that started opening up
some business opportunities for them.
The first of which being, , some brands
where the founders of these brands
would pop on their podcasts and say,
hey, we really love all the stuff that
you guys do on your personal Twitters.
Can you like take over
our Twitter accounts?
And so they said, yeah, we'll do that.
And that allowed them to get
some, revenue coming in the door.
And enough to, pay their
bills and quit their day jobs.
And so, it was probably six months after
that period where they'd quit their day
jobs, probably a year and a half into
the business starting to begin with, that
I jumped on to run operations for them.
And there were definitely a
lot of, issues when I came in.
They had a, serious leaky bucket problem
of, new systems and processes around,
the things they were doing to make money.
People would come in and fall
out very quickly and easily.
And it came to a point, too,
where they just had so many
initiatives that were going on.
Like, they were, writing their
own social content, creating
their own social content.
They had a podcast and a newsletter
and this marketing agency, and they
were spitting up a CPG brand and this
and that, and like, there are probably
other things I'm kind of,
forgetting about right now, too.
And they were the only
ones doing everything.
And so I was the one that came
on in to say, Hey, one, let's
really formalize this stuff.
Let's make this a business.
Let's set up the right
systems and processes here.
And beyond that, , let's delegate out
a lot of this work that is currently
consuming so much of your time, so
we can free you guys up to do the
things that you guys are uniquely
good at, and best in class at.
And, , it wound up being just a really
fun partnership to work with these guys,
where I had been the founder of my thing
before, and then I got to come in and be
a joiner, but joiner of a really fun,
cool brand, that was doing just a lot
of fun, different, creative stuff here.
Track 1: So it seems like a lot of these
creator businesses have to think about
value creation and the value capture
is not automatically linked together.
Like if we're talking about Mr.
Beast, he makes cool YouTube videos
and then he captures the value
by selling chocolate or doing ads.
A lot of the podcasts, right?
You create value by
having a podcast about.
Something.
And then a Squarespace ad comes
in and pays for the episode.
And for meat mafia, it seems
like they figured out the value
creation of their media empire.
And then we're capturing value with
this agency approach, which highlights
that for these creator businesses,
it seems like value capture can
happen in a lot of different ways.
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: Yeah.
totally.
It's one of the most fun and most
daunting and dangerous part about
creator brands, is on one end when you
have this audience, there are endless
opportunities you can chase after,
and then on the flip side, when you
have this audience, there are endless
opportunities you can chase after.
And so
Being disciplined about where you
go, what you chase after what you
say yes to is really important.
And
so while it's awesome, when you have
this audience, you can take on all
these opportunities, it also can be
very, , distracting and, can ,, mute,,
potential opportunities as well.
When you're chasing after too
many things, you're not able
to focus, . And so there are.
, pros and cons to the cool
opportunities that come from having
this audience and monetizing that way.
Track 1: One of the things that Meat
Mafia seems to have done really well
is they started as a media channel,
but then became a media empire.
And what I mean by that is like,
started as Twitter, successfully
went to a podcast, then they layer
in some other things like newsletter.
I'm assuming, were they on YouTube also?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: Yeah.
Track 1: So for these people that are
interested in these early creator,
tracks here, it seems like when you
succeed on one channel, you want to
try to saturate all the channels.
, did Meat Mafia successfully move
their Twitter audience to YouTube?
Or did they prove the concept on Twitter
and then rebuild it on their podcast?
how should creators think about that?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: It's
really hard to actually know the flow.
, but the assumption that we would assume
internally is that Twitter kind of
became the avenue by which, Everything
else will get marketed and advertised
And so we had this flow of Twitter
into our YouTube, Twitter into our
podcast, Twitter into our newsletter.
Then there became the, these
different hiccups that would happen
there where Twitter suppressed
anyone sharing sub stack links.
And so suddenly Twitter to
newsletter became a whole lot
harder . And so we had to get.
Thoughtful and creative there.
And then also, we started learning that,
we would attract people organically on
YouTube, we'd attract people organically
on Instagram, and , suddenly what
started as flows out started becoming
flows into our brand and who we are.
And so I'm sure there are a decent
amount of people that follow
the brand on Instagram or that
follow the brand on social media.
YouTube who are not even aware
of the Twitter content, right?
But,, that was the place that
kind of launched everything else.
And they did a
really good job of migrating
there and making that happen.
Those guys just went a million
miles a minute and just, did it all.
And that was an awesome thing for
me to be around and have exposure
to because I certainly can , be so
planned out about things, and, they
just kind of throw
things against the wall.
And there's a beauty in that as well,
where it allowed them to , get, , mass
followings, make things happen, on
plenty of different channels as well.
Track 1: Taking a lesson from this, The
kind of creator playbook seems to be start
on one channel, saturate all the channels.
If we're talking to a nascent creator or
if you're talking to a software brand
that's trying to learn from creators, is
your advice focus on one channel until
you're good at it and then do the rest?
Or is your advice more like
it costs almost nothing.
If you've got video content, you
should chop off the video and
make it a podcast and put it on
YouTube and use those resources.
Clips on Tik TOK.
What's the right way to think
about media empire versus starting
as a, single channel creator.
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215:
Yeah it certainly, , doesn't
hurt to, try to go everywhere.
That being said, everything's
changing so quickly in this world.
And so I think that while maybe a
year ago podcast clips, Hey, I'm
just gonna post this everywhere and
it's gonna really help my brand.
Well, that was I think
a successful tactic.
I think
now it's pretty saturated and if
you're going to break through,, You
probably need something that's really
special and unique for those platforms.
Now,
Shorts, Reels, TikTok, they're all
pretty similar, and so , if you're
gonna go, , short form content, hey,
let's go short form video and nail
it, but, , to expect that your podcast
clips are gonna rip on short form, I
don't think that's as much the case.
Now I think kind of podcast
clips, it's almost more of.
An opportunity to bring awareness
to your existing audience
of hey, I have this, new episode that
came out rather than something that's
a tactic that's going to grow you.
And so if you want a growth tactic, that's
going to be something you're going to
have to get a little more scrappy and
creative about rather than just copy and
paste, hey, here's a playbook, let's go.
\ Track 1: I'm thinking about the
lessons here for software businesses.
An enterprise software business,
like secret could have had an
Instagram account, a YouTube account.
And I think what you're saying here
is interesting, which is some of
these channels are absolutely good
for retaining people, staying in
touch with people you already know,
but maybe the tricky part is trying to
get new users on these platforms that
hypothetically, someone who started
the new software business, making the
Instagram accounts you should expect
that it's a good way to keep in contact
with people who want to follow you.
But where it becomes really
tricky is using them to.
Have people discover
you for the first time.
Is that right?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: Totally,
You can always try to , leave it up to
the algorithm, but at the end of the
day, are you creating something that
people are going to love so much they're
going to share, that's where you're
really going to get escape velocity
and exit velocity out of things, and
it's similar to software, with, if you
want your software product especially
more in that B2C space, to grow.
You want something that love so much
that they can't, help but share with their
friends same thing with content, it's
like we can try to get into these kind of
growth hack tactics as much as possible.
And some of them certainly do work and
help a lot of thumbnails, titles, whatever
else it is, but creating something so good
that people feel inclined to share it.
That's a really hard thing
to do, and it's a really hard
thing to do consistently, both
in the product world and
in the content world.
Track 1: What are those engines
that you think differentiates
professional creator,, media
company, from the amateur.
I, cause I think of restaurants and
Ben: Yep.
Philip (2): there's restaurants that have
a playbook of menu items are written down.
Track 1: The things we buy are,,
written down the way we agree to
customers , written down the way
people dress is written down.
The recipes are written down so that
they can open, , additional stores
It seems like what you're describing
here was almost building out these
standard operating procedures.
So what do you think differentiates,
a well functioning media company from
the amateurs who are getting started?
, ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: it's hard
because there are so many creators and
they'll wind up, getting to a point where
they're millionaires and have all this,
traction in so many ways and they just
know operational anything and they'll
ask you just basic questions around.
Hey, man Like how do I do my taxes?
You know, it's like you're
making millions of dollars.
It's like a content creator and then
on the flip side you can have someone
who's got all these operations in place
but they're just getting by and so
There's not necessarily a correlation
around, having the cleanest, smoothest
operations, per se, and, being very
successful, making lots of money,
having lots of views, all of that.
I will say, though, a lot of the job
for operators in the creator world is,,
how can you free up the content creators
just to be able to focus on the things
that they're really good at, which
is this engine of content creation.
How can you manage them like they are
talent
at NBC, where they're, blocked off from,
all these things that might distract them
and just focused on just creating content.
And that's the thing is as creators
get bigger, they got a lot more
attention on them, a lot more
meetings coming on their calendar, a
lot more things that make it a lot
harder to focus on the things , that
made them what they were to begin with.
And so
that's, I think the big kind of like
focus from an operations perspective
is there isn't necessarily this
clear cut thing between, hey, smooth
operations and successful creator brand.
But if your creator's getting bogged
down in all these things that, they
shouldn't be getting bogged down with,
then their content's gonna suffer.
They're not gonna be as, on the ball.
The quantity of content, the quality
of content, all that's gonna go down.
And so, how can you set up the systems and
processes to make sure that the creative
juices are going and flowing there?
And, putting those structures in
place where, You're not hindering
the creative process to you, right?
You've gotta have , enough
structured processes to keep
things organized and going.
But also enough in place for people
to , lean into the creative process
Track 1: I apply that lens of value
creation versus value capture here.
And it seems like what you're saying
is these creators are really good
at value creation and as they start
to grow the value capture step,
meaning do people pay their invoices?
Do they have sponsors, our employees
getting hired and paid or whatever, our
episodes still getting published, that
becomes something that takes up their time
and kind of hurts the value creation step.
And so having them focus their
time as much as possible on the
value creation is,, impactful.
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: Totally.
100%.
Track 1: And that's where I think
software and content businesses
are so parallel in that they have
this 0 marginal cost of production.
So meaning if I make an iPhone
app, , If I sell one app download
versus a thousand versus a million,
I don't have to do more work.
And that's the same thing with these
creator business models, where if you have
a podcast and you've one person listened
to it versus a thousand versus a million,
it doesn't impact the creation step
, what's happening is creator companies
is sometimes , their audience is growing
and the content quality decreases as
the audience grows, when really you
want the content quality to the same
or improve as the audience grows.
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215:
Totally, man.
Yeah, I think you, you
said it spot on there.
Track 1: I'm really interested in this
because I think that a lot of software
companies look at creators and they're
like, man, this creator has an audience.
All I need to sell my
product is an audience.
And I think inversely, a lot of creators
look at software companies and say,
Man, these people have a buy button on
their website and people just pay them.
I've got a big audience.
, why don't they just pay me to send
that audience to them and I'll make
money off of this massive audience.
So before I ask, how should
they talk to each other?
My question is, why did you
jump sides of the aisle here?
You started on the software side
and seems like you did a great job
there and had a successful business.
And then you decided to move
over to this creator side.
did you do that?
And do you think you'll ever start
another software company again?
Or is there something about
this creator space that
is, , really interesting to you?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: Yeah, there
are a couple of reasons why I decided
to jump from software to creator world.
I think.
One is my company ultimately got acquired
by a private equity backed company.
And I came into the process of that
fairly naive around what that would mean.
And ultimately saw that, the company
just became a line item on the
spreadsheet for a , larger business.
And I lost so much of the, , soul,
I felt , that I, , I brought
into it , and wanted it to have.
And I realized, , a lot of, the
venture capital , and private equity
backed incentive structures, they
just push for these billion dollar
outcomes that, , I think impede the
long term, nature of, a fun, healthy
company that, I want to be a part of.
What I love about creator brands is
oftentimes, the creators own 100 percent
of them and they can make them as big
or as small as they want and these can
sustain in really fun, quality ways if
they're done in a thoughtful and strategic
way for a sustained period of time.
And so not having this kind of
like billion dollar bust incentive
structure and instead just being
able to, , builds , their value.
Like, long lasting, quality companies.
That's one reason that I was
attracted to doing that in the
creator world over the tech world.
I thought it was an
easier thing to do, too.
I think it's just so hard to get
people's attention in this day and age.
And creators have that organically.
And, when you're able to have
people's attention, there are so
many fun business opportunities
that come as a result of that.
And so,
I wanted to go where the attention was.
And Felt that there were a lot of
just , fun business things there.
I think the third reason is after
selling my business, I didn't know
if I had the stomach to be a founder
again, or at least in the short term.
But I also knew my skill set.
Like I'm really good at running businesses
and setting up systems and processes and
hiring and onboarding and managing the
operations, the day to day of a business.
And I couldn't walk into a tech
company and do that or be that
the CEO, the founder, they tend to
like to do that in tech companies,
the founders and creator brands
really don't care about that stuff.
They just want to create content.
, they don't really care about.
running the business and the,
nuts and bolts of it all.
And so, I was able to in the creator
world, step on in and do the things
that I'm uniquely good at, in a way
that, is a lot harder for me to do
as a joiner in the tech world rather
than as a founder in the tech world,
?
And then I think the last thing, too,
is , I think the creator world feels
like the sexy place to be right now.
I felt like a decade ago, if you
were to say you worked at a big
tech company, that was a really
cool and sexy and prestigious thing.
Like, oh, you work at Facebook or Uber
or Google, like, wow, that's amazing.
And now it's just a little, like, I
don't know, , eye roll y or whatever
to, , say you work in these, big
tech companies, and now if you're
saying, , Uh, oh, you work at Mr.
Beast, , people are like, wow, that's
so cool, that's so sexy, and , there's
this kind of sex appeal to working in
the creator world, too, that does also
appeal to me, of , man, this is just a
fun energy, it's youthful, it's energetic,
it's , where I feel like big tech, there's
a lot of just , Punch the clock 9 to 5
malaise, whereas in creator world there's
just a lot more of just this youthful go
getter energy We're gonna change the world
that , I think I was really excited
about with tech, , a decade ago.
Track 1: I love this book, World After
Capital by Albert Wenger, who's one
of the VCs at Union Square Ventures.
And he surmises that.
The scarce resource of the
information economy is attention.
That's in the industrial age, it
was capital being able to make
factories and scale up production.
But that in the information age, it's
where are you putting your eyeballs,
where are you putting your time?
And what you're saying is interesting
in that these creators are successfully
competing against massive Hollywood
studios, ? When you're watching
a YouTube creator for 30 minutes,
there's an underappreciated, idea,
which is the Netflix show that maybe
cost tens of millions of dollars to
produce is not getting the time that
the YouTube creator with a selfie
stick and a low budget is capturing.
And there's something really
fascinating about that.
Just anyone being able
to become a creator.
And it's popular among kids
now to say like, I want to be
a YouTube creator when I grow
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215:
Oh, totally.
Like over 1 percent of the
world's population is watching
every MrBeast's videos.
Like that's crazy, you know, it's insane.
Track 1: So if you're talking to
a high school student is trying to
figure out what to do in college,
what to do for work, , How would you
explain software versus creator and
how to choose which path to go down
or are they super complimentary and
you think they should know about both?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: It's
tough because , there are these
vocational skills that are very unique
and, independent to each, right?
If you
are a software engineer,
you're not, you're going to be
doing that at a tech company.
, More likely than not, if you're in sales,
, you're going to do that at a tech company.
If you are a video editor, or producer,
or audio editor, or whatever else it
is, , you're going to be doing
that in the, , media space.
And , then there comes to that , weird
world that I sit in of, , generalists
of people that, don't necessarily fit
into one of those square boxes as much.
And then that's like, yeah,
entrepreneurial people, right?
For a while, I thought,
hey, , I'm entrepreneurial.
And, what you were saying
about, attention, right?
It's this very scarce resource.
I want to build my own following and
audience so that for any entrepreneurial
project that I do in the future, I can
have , an increased likelihood that
that's gonna , have success, , . And
it really was pretty quickly on, , that
wasn't me, that wasn't who I was, , I
have so many friends who are natural at,
, creating content, at building followings,
That's just not something that comes
natural to me in a consistent way.
And so, , I think if you've got that kind
of it around creating content, building
an audience,, heck yeah, go for it.
, because I think there's so many fun,
cool opportunities, and I've seen that
from so many friends that open up.
, whether you're doing that from a
business venture or just, , independent
in other ways that come from
that.
Heck, even where I broke into the
world of football recruiting , it
started as I was blogging on the
internet about football recruiting, and
I had one of my articles get, , picked
up and discovered by, , the head of
recruiting for Northwestern Football,
who offered me a job in his office,
?
Yeah, put out content and see what can
happen, especially if you have a niche
and a certain specialty or an interest
or something like that, but if you don't,
there's still other opportunities where
you can break in and provide value.
But I
do think from a core, if you're just
an undecided, , entrepreneurial person
trying to figure out what to do.
I think you're probably going to
have a lean one way or the other
naturally of , I'm a tech person.
I'm a software person.
I'm a, dirty job, sweaty
startup, whatever person.
I'm a media person.
I think just , follow the interest
and it's all going to work out.
Track 1: A lot of these companies,
though, like early startups, we're hitting
this wall, , of how do I get users?
It's like kind of a classic, make
something and people will come.
Idea is increasingly not working.
And ads have become so competitive where
ad network prices to acquire users are
super high, and there's this allure of
creator businesses and that it remains
more egalitarian in the sense of your
blog post could go viral and get tens
of thousands of views and results in
thousands of signups and you don't
have to pay an ad network for every
single person that visits your website.
And I think a lot of software
people as they're thinking.
About their businesses, whether it's,
, a developer tool or, , enterprise
software product or an app, ? Even
hypothetically, like, uh, VR startup
coming out of YC and maybe that
wants to try to get some users, these
software companies are wondering
what should my content strategy be?
And I'd be curious.
what your advice is for software
companies, because I think I could
see a spectrum here of advice ranging
from focus on the product and don't
worry about the content versus
there's a bare minimum of stuff.
It's not that hard.
Like literally make a demo video
of your product, put it on YouTube
and it's not a full creator suite,
but just talk about your product.
All the way to like full on, trying
to make YouTube videos and doing day in
the life of software creator things.
I'm wondering what you've seen
and what you think is the future.
And is there something that you think
is , low time commitments, but has
a potential for high payoff that.
These software founders should
really be thinking about.
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: At the
end of the day, you just need to go
where your audience is and, Be able to
provide them with real value, , there's
not a playbook for it though, right?
Like if you just have a
boring developer tool that is whatever,
you're not going to make just like
pop because you've got, , an audience
or a brand, , I think that's one of
the interesting things you've seen is
you've seen some, , Creators, , try
to launch, , consumer social apps
off the back of, this big following,
and those fizzle out pretty quickly,
.
The, caliber of your
product matters a lot.
And so I think oftentimes it feels
like that's more of an excuse
around having a fine product.
, like, Hey, if only, , I was able to, Get
this in front of the right people, people
will care, like, usually that's not the
problem as much., , but I think at the
same time, you and I, I know, are , both
big fans of, , 37 Signals , and what
, they've done over there, and I think I,
I recently was listening to
Jason Fried on a podcast.
And he was asked , hey, you
started this thing 25 years
ago, , could you do it again?
And he's like, , I , I don't know.
I don't think so necessarily.
Right?
Like, there
very well could have been like a
sign of the times where yes, , hey,
is this awesome product that both
of us use for email and, , some
capacity, right?
But at the same time, , why it's
probably like successful hit is because
they, , Have this organic audience
that genuinely cares about the
stuff they create and put out there
And if they were to try to launch
hey without that would that have been
a success in any way shape or form?
I don't know right like
maybe maybe not probably a
lot less likely to have been
Track 1: yeah.
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: Think
that I don't know it's a tough one
where There's certainly like ways,
and that was one thing with the Meat
Mafia, we had a digital marketing
agency where we would write, , tweets
and put out email marketing campaigns
and create Instagram posts for
brands , , largely in the CPG space.
And it certainly helped, , for a lot of
those brands, not all, but the ones that
it, , certainly we crushed it for were
the ones where we were able to develop.
They had a very kind of cult like
following, potential for their audience.
We were able to give them like a
really fun, punchy, unique voice.
Like the brand wasn't
too restrictive on that.
And then, , , we had one brand we
worked with, , this brand Farmer Bill's.
They're a, biltong, kind of
beef jerky type of brand.
And we got, about 10 million
impressions on a tweet for them.
And they sold out of their
inventory on just this one tweet.
. And what happened was, , they put
out a whatever tweet, , about Beyond
beef and Beyond beef, quote tweeted
it or replied to it or something.
And then , we put a zinger out after
that around Beyond Beef that wound up
just going mega viral, , and it's like
having an us versus them is always
helpful, having this kind of , something
incendiary and in certain ways, , that
us versus them, that's certainly been
something that 37 Signals, right?
They've leaned into
heavily as well, right?
Pick an enemy and go after it.
But.
, just because you , , have all those
ingredients, have an audience,
have whatever, , it'll maybe , get
people to check you out a little bit,
but , it's not going to sustain you.
Track 1: So this relating to what we
were talking about earlier about using
some of these tools for engaging existing
users and retaining them versus Finding
new users and what you're saying here is
Some of these creators are really good at
using these channels for finding new users
But there's still this Software playbook,
which is in the past you were always told
Have an email campaign when people sign
up have an email newsletter send emails
about new features in a basic retention
motion and Do you think that that basic
retention motion for any generic software
company should be updated to include
media strategies outside of just email?
Or do you think that for most
companies focusing on email
is totally fine nowadays still?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: Yeah,
I think email is still a great tool.
, I don't think email is going
anywhere, gone anywhere.
Newsletters are still fantastic,
, mechanisms to have, and are the pillars
for a lot of, creator brands and this
whole concept of owning your audience
critical, especially in a world where,
, you very well could get shadow banned
or worse from , a big tech platform,
like owning your own audience critical.
, But.
, I think that, the more clever and creative
you can be as a brand that, , where
you can do things outside of the norm,
outside of what everyone else is doing.
If everyone else is doing something,
it's probably worth , at least sniffing
around and seeing what else you can do.
Because if everyone
else is doing it, the kind of, , ability,
the upside on that is probably pretty low.
Track 1: That makes sense.
, I love this product Jam, jam.
dev founded by Danny Grant and she's
definitely been leaning into more
of a creator focused, sales motion.
So Jam is a developer tool and it is
used for reporting bugs and it taking
this bottoms up product led growth
approach and Danny is doing a lot of.
videos, TikTok style on LinkedIn.
And it's a bottom up
product led growth company.
I don't know if she's acquiring a
bunch of new customers this way or
not, but I think that she's definitely
taking this marketing approach of
trying to be more creator focused.
What appeals to me about that is so
often software founders are told go
do sales and they think of sales as
picking up the phone and dialing people.
But.
Education and content related to
this creator world, is a form of
sales that isn't just writing emails
and saying, Hey, use my product.
It can be a form of education.
, companies have this low hanging
fruit of just showing people their
product and telling them how it works.
At a minimum, do you think most
startups should now at least have a
YouTube video showing their product?
Because I'm thinking of
booklet, which is my product.
And I put a YouTube video on
the homepage, just showing
how it works in three minutes.
And I think the video was
viewed by over half of people
who viewed the landing page.
And it has, thousands of views
within the first couple of days.
And to me, that felt
like something that was.
Just a form of education and that
some of these software companies can
utilize the creator playbook just
from a pure education standpoint.
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215:
Totally, but I do think that there
are some of these brands that are
, doing it even now with creators.
So, I don't know if
you heard about Ridge,
,
brought on Marques Brownlee
as an equity partner.
And so,
he's, the biggest, tech review
YouTuber and now he is an equity
holder in, very established tech,
, forward company , of , Ridge Wallet.
And so the founder there, he was just
saying, If Pete Davidson does two
promos for you, that's going to go
away in a couple of months and you
just paid him, , X amount of dollars.
Whereas if I have this creator who I'm,
, giving actual equity to and they're
bought in on this stuff and they're
going to be a champion for my brand and
they're forward facing like that, the
potential payoff for my brand is huge.
And so I think you're going to
start seeing more and more of
those types of relationships
that are going to go down where.
Established big creators partnering with
established companies, even tech companies
where they can say, Hey, , I'm not just
going to pay you, , just for brand deals.
I'm gonna actually give you
equity in my business and know
that, , you're gonna be an owner
in this and you're gonna, as a
result of that, be a partner and
help drive a lot of value here.
And so certainly the more multimedia
you can create about your
product and your brand and have
on your website, that's helpful.
But if you can really get creators.
Bought into what you're doing.
I think that's gonna be the best way
to really , organically grow things.
Philip (2): I think you're gonna
start to see a lot more of that.
So coming from like your side of
the aisle here now with Velcro,
let's say you've got a software
founder who's got a product and.
Is aggressively trying to go to market.
What would your advice be for how
to approach the creator world?
Assuming they've got a
product they want to sell.
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215:
Yeah, it is really hard to
market organically on Shortform.
I think that's why YouTube content
creators Are just so much more valuable
than a tick tock or, , Instagram
content creator where, , people
are going to tune out very
quickly and easily on short form.
They're just gonna
scroll right through it.
And so, plugs for short form have
to be a lot more organic, but also
they tend to be a lot less valuable.
If you can partner with someone who's
got a , deeply engaged audience.
, I would say that really is looking
at more of a newsletter following
or a, , engaged podcast listenership
or an engaged YouTube audience.
, I also think that, , there are tips
with working with creators there.
It's important to know that, , creators.
They're reachable, , so feel free
to , reach out to them , and hit them.
They may have, , managers and things
like that and business partners, but.
They're certainly reachable,
first and foremost.
But second, like they're not always
the most organized or on top of things.
And so
be persistent with reaching out to them
and finding, , clever and creative ways
to get in front of them and make the
ask and offer appetizing and appealing.
There are too many creators that are
approached by brands for, , free
product or, , just like peanuts.
, but at the same time too, you have
to be , realistic around the
audience size and what these creators
are actually worth to you, ? And so
I think oftentimes like a couple hundred
thousand followers on short form that's
probably not gonna be worth a whole
lot but Kind of being thoughtful from
a platform by platform perspective
on where your people are and then
who's creating content in those niches
like I have a friend who is a manager
for veterinarian content creators
and she can get a lot of money for
kind of smaller following counts.
, whereas in the health
space, you can have a million followers
and not be charging that much money,
, for that because it's so saturated.
, there are not a lot of veterinarian,
content creators out there, right?
And so they can, demand a pretty penny.
Whereas in the health
space, it's so saturated.
There's so many fit, hot, young
people that, , are into health
that are creating content.
So if you're, , a brand, you can be a
lot more diligent and tough, , when
it comes to what you're asking for,
so it's really industry specific to you
on what , the asking price is going to be.
, Track 1: if you're talking to a software
founder, who's raised some money from
venture capitalists, . What would you
recommend thinking is an entry level
amount of money to play with to try out
a couple of YouTube video sponsorships,
a couple of short form sponsorships,
or a couple of newsletter sponsorships.
And , what's the turnaround time?
I think all these people
tend to be in a rush.
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: You
can get the turnaround time quickly.
I think that's one thing that there's
a , very big push and pull on right
now in the, , sponsor and influencer
game is, , , you've got to be a very
unique, special creator in order to,
, generate a real trackable ROI for most
brand deals, , or have a very high
ticket item that you're pushing and
selling that you can , sell a couple on.
And so in the marketing world, people
say it takes like seven times for
them seeing a product for them to.
Make a purchase decision.
And so it can be hard to quantify the
real value of, , your investment in
a creator brand where you might say,
man, , the conversions here really low.
Very few people put in that coupon code.
But, , did more people visit the website?
Get brand awareness?
Did they buy without, , having
that be directly trackable to the
initiative, ? I think that.
, in a world of software where you
want everything to be so trackable,
sometimes those marketing dollars and
spend aren't especially that can be
especially the case with influencers.
And so you need to tow this
line very carefully around.
Not being a penny pincher, I need
to see this like immediate ROI here
while at the same time not being
reckless about, , spending on things
that really aren't moving the needle.
And so how to figure that out
in a thoughtful way is tough.
I think that one thing I would recommend
is really going deep with the content
creators , I think too many brands
don't go as deep with content creators
around the expectations, , and get as
clever and creative around the asks.
And , I think if you can really , go
deep and get clever and creative with the
asks there, and make it in your image,
I think too many brands don't have a real
image for what they want out of content
creators, they just say, oh, I want it.
Influencers and I'm going to pay X
amount of dollars, but I think having
a real vision for hey, what I want
this to look like and, , have someone
act in that vision, is important.
Track 1: coming back to that
earlier question, what should a
software founder think in their
head is a starting number to pay?
And should they go after an
unidentified talent that's more
niche, like a veterinary creator
that doesn't have any ads yet?
Or is it, is there money typically
better spent going to, I don't
know, is there like a website
for finding a creator to sponsor?
Is there an agency you should go to?
What should the responsible founder
with , call it like a 10, 000
ad budget, what should they do?
Ben: Like, quite frankly, if you
got a 10, 000 ad budget, probably
put that into, , Facebook ads, where
there's more of a tried and true and
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215:
Like an ROI can be like hyper
targeted or whatever there.
I think at the end of the day,
it's from a first principle thinking
perspective, it's more of just what am
I selling and where are my people at?
And who's got their,
, attention and energy.
I do think though, , why Ridge made
Marques Brownlee an equity partner
is this for a short term bump or is
this for a long term partnership?
If I want someone to be a long
term partner here, there's
one way to set that up.
There's another world though where
it's, hey, I want to have this two
month burst in whatever industry I'm in.
And so I'm going to hear out the
prices from every content creator
in my industry and I'm just gonna
go and I'm going to hear what they
offer, see what their audiences is.
I'm going to, spray out across all that
in a very contained time period because
in this two month window, I want to get
a lot of brand awareness and know that my
audience, they're probably listening to
multiple podcasts or consuming multiple
YouTube videos around, , my industry.
And I want to go in and nail
that, in a very concentrated way.
Track 1: The reason I really
wanted to chat was talking about.
software business model, creator business
model, adjacent, how should they interact?
And what I'm taking away from this
conversation is making content is
definitely a commonality that there's
benefits to telling your story and getting
people engaged with you on both sides of
the aisle, but that with creators, they're
able to use content to grow an audience.
And that with the software side of the
business, Maybe the content by default
is just a retention education tool.
And if you want to go more of the
creator path, the software company,
it changes the game towards trying to
acquire new users rather than engage
these existing ones and educate them.
And on the creator side the relationship
with software companies is probably more
of a relationship rather than this blind
sell that if you're starting to work
with software companies and have ads and
make these sales what works best there is
treating that like an additional product
and actually caring really deeply about
their metrics and working with them
not just to Put the ad in your video,
but to tell the story of the brand and
share , the deeper meaning and create
the same connection with this brand that
people have with your creator persona.
. And I think that's one of the things
that these new software companies
don't recognize often is how
difficult it is to create a brand.
Establishing more of a broad kind
of marketing brand for these new
startups is a really long process.
And I really like what you're talking
about with why you went, moved over to the
creator side, like the longevity there is
it definitely seems like one of the things
is creator businesses are doing well as
software businesses are not doing well is.
Tapping into this longevity because
working on a creator brand for three
years is sometimes how long it takes
to break out, but working on a software
company for three years is sometimes
the average length that people do
work on one of these companies.
And so I think that tapping into
that longevity and the brand
building is another really important
distinction between these two.
, wrapping up here, then tell me
a little bit more about Velcro.
what's next steps for you in that world?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: Totally.
Right now I'm,, I'm working with any
and all content creators to solve
their problems, whether that is,,
growing, , monetizing or, , operationally.
And so I'm excited to talk to any
content creators , , that want to
explore, , whether it is, , any
of , those areas , and opportunities.
And so it's been a really, , fun thing for
me to sink my teeth into, , to work with.
A lot of creators help them solve their
problems , , and build really , cool
businesses out of it, , and then
be a supporter and cheerleader in
the process too, so here to support
all creators , under the Velcro brand
and, , happy to talk to anyone, , out
there who's, , in that creator
world, , looking for some help.
Track 1: How should people
get in touch with you?
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215: Yeah,
right now, , you can just , hit
me on social, hit my email.
I'm just benw at hey.
com.
, but yeah, man, , that's about it.
Track 1: Awesome.
, I appreciate it.
, thanks so much for having a chat, have
fun in, Chicago and definitely let me
know if you're in New York anytime soon,
ben-weiss_1_04-04-2024_150215:
Dude, I definitely need to make
another, , New York trip on the book.
I have nothing in 2024
of like, get to New York.
So, I need to put something
, on the calendar there.
Philip: thanks for listening
to this episode of the
Contraption Company Podcast.
Full show notes for the episode, including
links to everything we discussed, are
available on the website at contraption.
co.
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