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Ducks Unlimited Podcast is a constant discussion of all things waterfowl; from in-depth hunting tips and tactics, to waterfowl biology, research, science, and habitat updates. The DU Podcast is the go-to resource for waterfowl hunters and conservationists. Ducks Unlimited is the world's leader in wetlands conservation.
Chris Jennings: Everybody welcome back to the ducks on the podcast. I'm your host Chris Jennings joining me in studio Once again is Kelly powers and Brooke Richard. What's up guys? Hello. Hello. All right, we are going to move on. We've done kind of the duck calling 101. We walked through, you know, calling white-fronted geese. Now we're going to move on to Canada geese. And this, it's an awesome opportunity for us here. And we've got world champion Canada goose caller here, Kelly Powers. And, you know, Kelly, You are, you have been considered, you know, the Canada goose guy for a long time. Uh, long time. Yeah, I didn't mean it that long.
Kelly Powers: You know, I used to be the kid. I used to be like, you know, people would, anyway, some older hunters are like, yeah, I think I like the kid. You know, he's, he's a good goose caller. Now I'm the old man.
Chris Jennings: Old man and the goose.
Brooke Richard: He's still got it though.
Chris Jennings: I'm only 45. He's still got it. So, you know, we'll do the same thing we did kind of with Brooke and the white front where there are people extremely enthusiastic about communicating with birds in general. We've kind of gone through that. But getting down to specific species and really looking at the Canada goose, you're sitting in a blind with some guys. One of them has a Canada goose call. looks over at you and is like, hey man, how can I, how can I blow this call and make correct sounds? Like, what's your answer?
Kelly Powers: So, and I'll, I'll, I'll run off in the deep end on this and, and, and you'll kind of, um, I do like a little crash course on goose calling per se. Um, in simplistic terms, it is, it is more advanced. It is harder than a lot of notes than duck calling. And, and I just being honest because you're, you're not, just using notes through your mouth, it's also your hands become 50% of the element of it. And knowing hand placement and all of that is very crucial in getting the correct tones and kind of goosh. So it is a completely different aspect when it comes to that regard. But that shouldn't intimidate anybody to get the right notes. If you want to keep things simple, everything's either two notes. It's either a cluck or it's a moan. That simple. Everything arrives from those two notes. And really, a cluck is just a shortened version of a honk. So really, you have honks, clucks, and moans. That's it. Now granted, there's a lot of other vocabulary terms that I can throw in here, whether it's higher pitch, lower pitch, spit notes, all that, but they're really a variation of a honk, cluck, or moan.
Brooke Richard: I'm not a Canada goose caller. That's where I kind of lost my interest in learning how to Canada goose call. Number one, just a disclaimer, anytime I Canada goose hunt, which I'm from South Louisiana, so there's no reason I would ever have to own a Canada goose call. But now when I hunt, I'm hunting with Kelly Power. So what am I going to do? I'm like, I don't really need to learn how to blow this thing. And people have started explaining these spit notes, double clucks, triple moans. All right, I'm just going to be a Cajun over here in the corner.
Kelly Powers: You guys tell me when to shoot, all right? So, let's start off with a honk. So, what we're going to do is everything, and like I said, kind of derives from a honk in a sense, and it's a clucking them on in that scenario. So, best way to learn a honk, one of the best forms of learning that I was ever taught years ago, my good buddy John Pisone used to with blowing the old, you remember the old guide's best, Goose Flute, Tim Brown's hat, and the old A-50s. Air presentation of those calls, was by far, hands down, the most difficult call to ever learn. Because you have to apply back pressure, your hands have to come inward to make it break over, where on a lot of other calls you're going outward. Everything is backwards. It's reverse. So picking up a short re-goose call, going to a guy that's best, it's completely the opposite. So it's unreal how difficult that was. And those guys that were in that area, especially competition days, were unreal talented. But John Pisone told me years ago, the best way to make a call break over, and this is on the old flute days, and it pertains to a short re-goose call, and I have a short re-goose call now. Turn the call around backwards. Let someone that's a good caller teach you how to call. When you turn the call around, your brain can hear the air as it travels through the call. You can hear what that air is doing. You can hear what you're doing with your tongue and your mouth. You can hear everything as that air, every bit through the call, you can hear how it travels through it. Pick the call up yourself, turn your call around backwards, try to match what the guy teaching you is doing. So if you're at home, you wanna learn on goose calls, pick your call up, turn your call around backwards, match what I'm doing into the call. I'm gonna turn a call around backwards. Keep in mind, I'm not puffing out my cheeks. I'm blowing what we call hot air. So if you were to get up to a mirror, you want to fog that mirror up. So if you're going to blow air into the mirror, you want to create a little condensation on it. If there's no condensation and you're puffing your cheeks out, you have to pull the air out deep. Don't puff your cheeks out. Pull the air from deep from your diaphragm and through your chest. So I got the call around. I'm going to blow air through the call, and you're going to hear a popping sound. That popping sound is your tongue hitting the roof of your mouth right behind your front teeth. It sounds like this. You hear that popping sound. So you can take your call, turn your call around backwards and match the air. And if you keep remembering that sound, you can turn the call around and it'll sound like this. Turn the call back around. Back around the other way. That is a basic honk. That popping sound hitting the roof of your mouth right behind your front teeth, what that is doing is it is allowing that reed material, which is a mylar, it's a 14,000 thickness mylar, it starts to vibrate when your tongue hits the roof of your mouth behind your front teeth. It has that reed, slaps the bottom of that tone board, and it allows the call to break over into a higher octave. That's exactly what's going on through the call. By turning the call around backwards, hearing the air travel through it, you can match what that caller's doing, and it's an easier way of learning. The problem is if I was just blowing the call regularly, you hear that reed vibrate and you're hearing the audible sound come out of the call, it's really a distraction. The brain can't comprehend what the air is doing as it travels through that call. You can't hear what I'm doing with the tongue. The easiest way to learn is turn the call around backwards, match that, and I promise it's automatic. So many kids, adults, doesn't matter. I say I can't make a goose call break over. Now you can. Listen to that audio I did earlier. Turn your call around backwards. Match what I'm doing. You're going to turn the call around. The light bulb will go off. You'll get it. It makes sense. Okay? So there's a home. All right? Here it is. Now, you may say, well, that doesn't necessarily sound like a goose. This is where your hands come into play. And my good buddy Scott Shrine is one of the best quotes ever on calling. Like he said, you can have a $200 goose call, but if you have $2 hands, you got a $2 goose call. And it's so true to that. And to the contrary, you can have $200 hands and a $2 goose call, and you got a $200 goose call. It's just if you know hand placement and all that. I'm going to do that same honk, but I'm going to adjust my hand placement, and then the tone is going to come into play of what a real goose will sound like. Here it is without my hands on the call. Put the hands on the call. Now, I'm going to grunt at the very beginning. and those are just honks, okay? So, let's go into step two. Let's go into clucks. All right? On the honk, the main thing what we're gonna do is we're gonna take the ending. So, we're gonna do a honk, but I'm gonna take off the beginning, just do the ending. So, instead of… Just do the ending. That's just a cluck. Here's the honk. The cluck. So, you're just eliminating the beginning, just doing the ending part. Now, let's use your hand placement, and we're gonna do some highs and some lows and different things just to get different tone. And I had a couple honks in there with that, with clucks. Very simple. It's still a honk, it's just a shortened version. Got me? Now, if you look at geese, you have the gander, you have the goose, and on 50% of the vocabulary, you have clucks and you have moans. Okay? So, so many goose callers today and hunters, they cluck a lot, but they forget the other 50% component. and with a lot of the moans. So, everything derives off, in a sense, just one moan, you're just blowing air through the call, but there's a lot of different tone variances that I'm gonna get into in a minute. Best way to moan, a lot of guys say, I can't do that, well, always compare it to the little party horns that you blow into, that the little thing comes out, you know? It's just a goofy sound, just, let's just blow air through the call, just blow hard air through the call. And everybody listening to that is like, well, that sounds nothing like a goose. You're right, it doesn't. But watch when I put a cluck at the end. you say, well, that still doesn't sound like a goose. Watch when I put my hands on the call. I'm just throwing air through the call. So when you take a note that somewhat otherwise didn't sound like a goose, when you put the hand placement around the call correctly to get the right tone, and when you sandwich it with a cluck behind it, you have a moan-cluck combination. It's just like a breeding pair that's together. You see it a lot of times in the springtime, off at a distance or coming into a pond to land. And it's just like they come into that body of water to land. So, that's that one note. I always call that just a terminology. I call it a pullback moan, but that's just my terminology. And the reason is, is because your tongue is kind of at the back of your throat and you're just blowing air through the call. So, what we're going to do with that moan, here it is again. We're going to increase the velocity of the air as it travels through the call. When you increase that speed of air as it travels through the call, it forces it to become a higher octave. So that second part, we're going to match that up with some clucks. To do the first one I just did. You hear that higher pitch octave. That's basically, you're just increasing the flow of air as it travels through the call. Yeah. All right. So there's two different types of moans. Other moans, what I call like a push moan. So I'm going to do a hail. I'm going to extend the ending. Just keep pushing it. Here's a hail or a honk. Push it. So let's take off the beginning, mix it in with cluck. And then the last one I'll get into, we're going to do that same push moan, but I'm going to shorten it and do a spit. So instead of, I want to spit. And I'm out of my game a little bit because I'm letting it stick. But, uh, that's just a short burst of air. So it's a push bone, but I'm doing a short burst of air. So I know this is kind of a crash course and you can pause it and go back and reference this and contact us on social media through power calls or final flight, any of those avenues. And I'd love to help you. But listen to those things, listen specifically as the air travels through the call. It's the easiest way to learn. But I'm gonna do a little segment, listen for all those notes, listen for the honks, listen for the clucks, and listen for all the different variations of moans. And what I'm about to do, it's honestly, it's still all the variations, some of the most important. It's just clucks and moans. It's all that.
Chris Jennings: And what you're trying to do is sound like more… That's it.
Kelly Powers: …than one goose. That's it. And keep in mind, what I'm about to do and what I'm teaching you here is, I can teach you the physics of the call, I can teach you how to make shortcuts to make those notes, I can teach you all that, but if you want to sound like a goose, go listen to a goose. Yeah. You know, I appreciate you listening to me to teach you that, but there's only one true source and that's the species that we're after. Yeah. You know, so here's a little segment.
Brooke Richard: Can you do something that's difficult and sounds like a goose now?
Kelly Powers: And you can go crazier than that, you can go really low on the speed and all that stuff, but if you really break it down, you know what, all I need to learn how to do, and I've had guys before, literally contest callers, that's like, man, they're struggling to get certain notes, but if you can cluck and if you can moan, Then I've taken those clucks and moans and literally we put them in editing software. And we've built routines for them around the notes that they can do. And it's like building the perfect song. And then you hit play and they're like, oh man, that's you calling. That's pretty awesome.
Brooke Richard: You know what I mean? You can do it. You're doing all the parts. You can do it.
Kelly Powers: You're doing all the parts. It's just applying it. You know, and that gets into contest stuff. That goes, we can go way off the deep end of that, like, you know, whatever.
Chris Jennings: But, uh… We'll get into that here in a minute, but, you know, one of the biggest things, and this is growing up as a young goose hunter in Indiana, like, we weren't very technical, we'll say that. We'll leave it at that, actually. But, you know, the quintessential memory from me as a young goose hunter, you know, I'm sitting on a, probably a strip pit somewhere in Indiana, and it would just be like, you know, 18 Canada geese are flying by. A line of geese are cruising 300 yards out. What do you tell people? What's your first move on that?
Kelly Powers: If they're coming, the best advice, you know, and Harold Knight is really credited. I've heard him say it most. If you're on the X, don't call. If they're coming, don't call. Let them come. You know, one of the worst things you can do when they're coming right at you is call. I mean, they're coming, what else do you want? That's what you're trying to get them to do. Yeah, you're trying to get them to do. You've won.
Brooke Richard: Just let them come. That's my one trick in Canada Goose hunting. It's because I can't call Canada Goose. Watch guys, I'm going to show you what to do.
Kelly Powers: Watch guys, don't call. Yeah, so let's just paint that scenario. They're coming, all right? Well, then let's just say they get, you know, 300 yards out and they start to slide a little left or right. Yeah. And you're a little nervous, like, oh, do I call, do I not call, whatever. Pick a flag up. If you're in a pit or a layout blind scenario where you have decoys around you, close proximity, pick a flag up and weigh that flag. Now you're simulating motion. If you don't have any type of motion decoys or a flap or anything like that, just pick a flag up. And then a lot of times that'll center them back up and you don't even have to call. So, the whole element of really with any species is giving them just enough. just enough because I want to save a trump card in my back pocket to give them when I need it. If they pass it over my head, I got to have something to get them to come back. If I don't, if I've already given to them everything on the first pass when they're coming at me, when they go over my head, like I have nothing else to do. Like, I mean, you're struggling then. So give them just enough to keep. So hit the flag. Let's just say they center it up a little bit. Okay. Let's say that now they're kind of skirting a little bit and they go over our head. Well, then that's when I want to, that calling starts to come into play because obviously we got to do a little bit more to entice them to come into our spread. So don't just throw the kitchen sink at them right off the get-go. A lot of times I'm just doing murmurs and clucks and just kind of ground talk a little bit. And a lot of times, that's it. I'll just put the call back around, especially to see the response. Most of the time, boom, you know, they know somebody's home, they see the decoys then, and they're banking back around. And then you go to swing two. So now in swing two, we're going to replicate kind of what we did in swing one, especially remembering what worked and what didn't. So if the flag centered them up, boom, let's center them up with the flag again. Let's go back to that little calling sequence I just did because it turned them the previous swing. and then just keep the minimum. But you can always start increasing more and more as they come. as desperation comes to play, if they're just start going away.
Chris Jennings: That's when you're like, Brooke, get your call. Yeah, exactly.
Brooke Richard: You're gonna be desperate.
Kelly Powers: You're asking me for me to pull a can against the call if something's wrong. You're pleading sound, so that's when a lot of your more drawn-out moans and stuff like that, because a lot of times, you know, you may have a, you know, a mating pair that's disrupted or that's separated, and sometimes they may hear that note or that particular clock or they may hear that moan or whatever, And it triggers them that, oh, there's my lost mate, or there's whatever, and they're coming back to look for that. So you may always have that one goose in that flock that's cutting his head and looking back. Well, then, you know, he's your one. Because if you can get him, sometimes you can get the rest of the flock to come back. But that's more of your pleading sounds and your moans. And then if they make that bank as a finishing call, a lot of times what I like to do personally and a lot of other hunters is simulate another pair that just lint. So if I can get them to come back then, it's a Because that's a gander-goose combination, moan-cluck, they're coming into the spread and landing. So it just kind of tells a story, you know, it just kind of helps paint the picture further. But from that, as a last resort, you just throw the kitchen sink at them, you know. And then at that point, you've effectively worked that flock of geese, given them everything you got, I think you've done it appropriately. There are some scenarios to where I like to throw everything at them first pass. You know, used to before, really before Higdon, you know, before we had our motion stackles, we just had full bodies. I remember we were in Canada hunting, and there was literally, you know, no motion. So if it's no motion, and like it's a still day, and decoys aren't moving, and you gotta fight, like, I need them to do first pass. Or if you're in a bad hide, or a bad setup, and there's a lot of scenarios that you're doing all you can do, you're like, man, I… I don't know, like, I want to get them in first swing.
Brooke Richard: Or it's the whole bunch gets up flies at once and you've got to get them or you're going to lose them all. That's it.
Kelly Powers: So, like, we've hunted spots too where we're really duck hunting, but we're hunting timber, like a timber hoe. Like, not really timber hoe, but like little timber shoots and all that. It's not a natural environment for Canada geese to sit in. So, when they come over, it's like, we got one shot at them, boys. You know, and that's the scenario we're like, because that's the same thing with speck calling. If you're a proficient caller, you can actually get them to do some pretty crazy stuff and go to areas where they don't want to go. And all you're doing is you're simulating a large flock, especially like in Timberwoods, you know, they get low over those trees and right when they get to the edge of those trees, when they could drop, if you just, boom, you hit them right then with every, like, you know, they thought they heard a lot of calling until they got to those trees, then they heard it really a lot. Well, then they drop their feet. And as soon as they drop their feet, because of the weight of their body, They're not like a duck where they can fan straight back up. Once they already commit, like, they have to land. It's a game of survival. Like, they cannot fly back out of this hole.
Brooke Richard: It's a train wreck and it's lovely.
Kelly Powers: That is a train wreck. And that's where you can, you know, you do some tricks like that and you're like, oh, it makes you look good as a caller. You're really tricking them. They don't realize their limitations that they can't overcome to get out of that hole, you know, safely. And so when they do that and drop their feet in a tree, then that's it. So those are scenarios that I would work them differently than if I'm in an open field.
Chris Jennings: And I guess for me, my perspective, I know, you know, we used to kill them growing up, um, with a bunch of pretty bad calling. You know, two or three of us might've had one of those big river flutes or something that, uh, not that they weren't effective, cause they absolutely were. Uh, we just didn't know how to use them. But, you know, you can get away with a lot with a block of candidates. Um, I feel like as long as your hide's good, your decoys are good, you can, some mediocre calling can put those birds right in the hole.
Brooke Richard: Yeah, I give Kelly a really hard time, mainly because he grinds my gears about spec calling and spec hunting, about Canada goose hunting and calling. I do not know how to blow a Canada goose call. This is the most Kelly's taught me to blow a Canada goose call in eight years. It's the only time he's taught me. I've known him for a decade. This is the first time he's taught me anything about Canada goose calling, because I don't need to, honestly. I hunt with Kelly Powers, Bo Brooks, you know, a lot of other very good What am I gonna do? But it's because I don't know how to Canada goose call, that makes me not like hunting them because I can't manipulate them like Kelly just explained. I'm a one-trick pony. I got like a spit moan and some noises that God knows what it means to those poor birds, probably get away from here. But, you know, I can make a few sounds, but I'm not… I don't know how to communicate with them. That's what I look for in a hunting situation, why I like spec hunting is because I can effectively communicate with them. I have not earned the respect of Canada Goose, the Canada Goose population, because I don't know their vocabulary. I haven't taken the time to learn, but I will after listening to Kelly explain this. It's a lot less intimidating. Yeah. But, I mean, the only problem I have with Canada Goose hunting is I don't know how to do it at the level that Kelly does, so I'd rather go do something else. Yeah.
Chris Jennings: No, and that's what I was alluding to. It's like, we killed them. We didn't know what we were doing. Sure. But to take it to this level, like you're talking, you know, where you're getting into these sequences where You're doing specific things or not doing specific things with the call that is really making those birds understand that there are other live birds down there. Like, it's super impressive.
Kelly Powers: It's one of, I mean, it's a, in my career, like from a hunting standpoint now, not calling career, a very effective tool hunting and not just goose hunting, but duck hunting. Yeah. High wind days, now granted I'm fortunate we were born and raised in Northwest Tennessee and there was a pretty large Canada goose wintering flock back in the 80s and early 90s and a lot of that has changed unfortunately, but there was a lot of co-mingling of mallards and Canada geese, no doubt. And on windy days, and especially late in the season, sometimes we'll want a Canada goose call. The crack of a goose call can travel so much further than any duck call made, period. So, you know, and we would go, and I mean, man, you're cranking on goose calls, and you can make milers do stupid stuff.
Brooke Richard: Same thing with a pintail on a speck. Absolutely. It's really cool. Like we were talking about on one of the earlier podcasts, you know, Kelly is a technician and a very analytical hunter and it works. It's effective. He learns. He's meticulous about it. It's taught me a lot. We hunt all over the country together. And unfortunately, through that, I've had to Canada goose hunt a bunch for our TV show. But it's so cool. Like, I'm just a kid from South Louisiana that never went Canada goose hunting one time before I turned 25 years old. I mean, I had to go to Canada and go do it. And the things that I've learned from Kelly and his just technical standpoint on hunting Canada geese, whether it's in Tennessee or it's in Saskatchewan, wherever, Pacific North, it doesn't matter where it's at. I've picked up so many cool spec hunting tips inadvertently through Kelly's Canada goose mentality, and it's translated very well. One of the ones that stuck out to me, we were on a hunt, I think we were in Saskatchewan four or five years ago maybe, and you were talking about your soldiers on each side, kind of like the tails of your spread when these birds approach. And correct me if I'm wrong, but he'll take an upright, a century decoy, and he'll kind of face it at them to make those birds on their approach on the downwind side, make them center up. So that there's a threatening goose on that side looking at them broad-chested to the approaching birds, and it makes the birds go that way. I'm not saying you… For what it's worth, this is Kelly Powers we're talking about. He's very technical, and he'll move every decoy you put out if it's not where he wants it. And they never are where he wants them. I mean, I would have never thought about that. I would never have thought about that. But you know what? I went to Arkansas and did it. And guess what? I only did it because it was the last hope. All the birds were wanting to be on the right side. And I was hunting a crosswind in a pit. It's not like I could move my layout. I want, I was getting to shoot great, but my wife and my friends weren't getting any action on that side of the blind and the dog boxes on my side, there was no moving. It was just a hot seat. So instead of moving my whole spread or turn everybody around, I just took a couple of decoys on the tail end, faced them up, went in those specs as they approached, had to slide left. When they slid left, they drifted right instead of vice versa, presenting a better shot to all the hunters in the pit. And like, here we go.
Kelly Powers: And kind of to explain that concept, you know, every, every setup you go, when I put decoys out, I'm looking to say, okay, we're, If they were going to skirt me, which direction would they skirt me? And what I'm looking at is topography. Is there a hillside? Is there a little valley or a little swag or something, you know? And so I find those areas that I think they're going to skirt me. Well, then I use my decouage to my advantage. I will run and I'll grab four or five real tall, big sentries. I call them soldiers. And I will put them out all the way at the far end of that finger, you know, end of that spread and have them facing the direction the geese are going to be coming from. Because if you watch Canada geese, very rarely will they land face-to-face with another goose. So if it's the last swing and they're coming in and they're within 20 feet off the ground, they're not gonna fly face-to-face with those tall soldiers. They're gonna hit that and they bounce off. Nine times out of ten, they will bounce off toward the rest of the spread and not bounce off and skirt and go around those. So that's just been a tool that I've always done.
Brooke Richard: Because they're lazy and they'll take the easier route.
Kelly Powers: But you gotta think, automatically they're within a few feet of dropping their feet out anyway, because of the height, so they're not very tall in the air. So as they're approaching the spread, and all of a sudden they're a little unsure, so they try to veer to the left, then all of a sudden they see these big tall sentries facing them, but then to their right, they see the rest of the decoys that are all feeding, and they see the backs, so they naturally turn, and they land up against it. So it has helped so much of just centering flocks.
Brooke Richard: It's an extra 10 yards. I mean, it's a difference. It's a difference, you know. Difference in getting a shot or not. And Kelly's playing chess most of the time. If you're just hunting, you're really just playing checkers. But I mean, what we're trying to do on any TV show, and ours especially, because we're trying to sell decoys and calls, is we want birds to react well to calls and finish over the back decoys. So you're talking about, and it would take everything I've got and all the knowledge that I don't have to try to get a Canada goose to enter a field I'm even in. Kelly's trying to get him from landing five feet to the right to five feet to the left, and it works, and he does it, and there's so much to learn there, and it works in spec hunting. It does. That translated directly into spec hunting, and it's awesome. It's a great tool, and it works effectively.
Chris Jennings: Now, Kelly, I'll ask you this, and this is just me being curious. How has the introduction of the short read, Canada Goose Call, changed calling from, you know, back in the day when everyone was using a lot?
Kelly Powers: So that was, and a lot of people have I guess they kind of said I was one that kind of helped pioneer that. I'm not going to take claim to that because there are definitely a lot of great short recallers for me. But I guess when I got started in calling contests, I started off blowing flutes because that was dominant. Like that's what you won with. God's best, you know, the old day 50s are God's best, you know, grounds calls. They were dominant. And I saw some stuff, back then people were blowing short re-goose calls and they were very easy to blow. They were tuning calls super easy and all that. And I saw some, there was a friend of mine, actually Brandon Bean, he come in second in the world the year, the first year I went and I got just killed, you know. But I saw some things that he was doing that, you know, he's tuning short re-goose calls super hard to blow. And so much air is coming down deep, like you would physically hurt when you try to blow the call. Like you could not, make my goose call break over. Like, it was that difficult. But when you're inside in a room, like, oh my goodness, like it, like, it'll make the, like… Volume. Yes, the volume and power and that full sound. But to get that, you had to tune the call super stiff, and you had to have warning guts, which is, takes a lifetime almost to do, to wear in. And with that combination, like, you're, it's, it's unreal. But you also had to have a little bit of a flute style background of how to present air into the call, because you're presenting air differently. From a duck caller standpoint, imagine blowing a J-frame duck call to go into a cut down. Both of them are duck calls, two different air presentations. The cut down, you're really up to pulling air down deep. That's kind of what we were, that I was doing in my short rate goose call. You know, that's kind of where it was from the old style short rate. So I went in at the world goose in 99 and won it. And it was just like, you know, and won it by a big margin then. And it was like, holy cow, what's going on? ever since then, it's been won by short reads. Like it's just been, and then it just launched a whole everything now with short read goose calls. Oh yeah. Um, and, and you know, there were guys that blew short reads before me that did well. Then, you know, so I'm not, I'm not gonna by no means take claim for that. That's just, you know, people have mentioned that, but there were guys that were, On the cusp of doing that, and then I think when you really started seeing the ones that do it, it's different.
Brooke Richard: Correct me if I'm wrong, Kelly, but that transition from the flutes to the short reed goose call, especially in the contest stage and hunting, I suppose. What you gained going from a flute style to a short reed call was range, technicality, speed.
Kelly Powers: You were able to just, the training wheels were off. The things that you lack are on a flute style, the moans and the tone is unreal. Like it was really, really cool. But a short reed, you have speed. Like you can do speed, and I can do finesse, and I can do, and then, but when you add that power and that moan to the equation as well, then holy cow, you've got something. You know, and Grounds come out with the Super Mag, I think it was in 98. And then, you know, and I brought the Super Mag then, and I mean, that's, you know, one with that. And then now you have a lot of variations, like all of our stuff with power calls is very similar. And I mean, they are. Warning guts and a short-rigged goose call is a deadly combination.
Chris Jennings: But there's definitely something to that flute, too. Like, you were kind of alluding to it. But if you're in a marsh in, you know, wherever, and you are 500 yards away, and you hear that dude over there on that… You know, it's slower, it's, but it's, you know, you're like, man, that is.
Kelly Powers: It's interesting back in the day too, around Crab Orchard Hunting Club and the old clubs now, and unfortunately with the goose migration, not affect, you know, getting the, the geese getting to him anymore, it's kind of died off. But there were some of the old guides that, you know, that they may not be that great of a caller, but let me tell you something, I don't want to be in the field beside them. because they're blowing that flute, and they knew when to call, and they knew how to read geese. And I think so much of that needs to be said to where a lot of guys are like, oh yeah, he can't call that much. Let me tell you something, he's good. You know, and experience. He's there to harvest, not put on a show. That's before Instagram. What was he doing it for?
Chris Jennings: What was he out there for?
Kelly Powers: And it's just a lot of truth to that, you know? But no, the old flute days, and I'll say this, there are guys that You know, some people have gone in and it's like, who's a good caller or who's won the most, this and that. Well, there are guys that in those flute days that, let me tell you something, if we could motivate them for two weeks to practice and a short recall with what's winning today, like, I don't want to compete against them. They're that talented. Like, it is unreal. And I mean, I can name so many names that are just lights out, but they don't have the passion anymore. Life's happened, you know, but they're that talented. It goes to my point to like, Guys that can blow the old, you know, the old guys, Crown's guys' best calls, those flutes, and pick the short reeds up, like, they're in a different, it's a different world, man. Like, it's a different level of talent that I highly respect, because listen, I started off blowing flutes, and it is so hard to do what they could do, like, you know, it's a night and day different call. It's like, how in the world do you make this thing run? And it's that hard.
Chris Jennings: And we'll touch on one more topic, and we won't last too long on this, but we'd be remiss to not bring it up. Again, you're sitting down with someone, they've got their short, recanted goose call, and he looks at you and he's like, man, I want to be in a competition caller.
Kelly Powers: Where do I start? Well, fortunately for him or her, YouTube has tons of videos to watch. you know, watch who's winning. I mean, just watch who's winning, all of that. And I say that, I mean, if you're wanting to sound like a goose, go to a refuge and listen to a goose. If you want to sound like a contest caller, which fortunately for goose calling, it's realistic notes. You know, everything you hear on the stage, you're going to hear a Canada goose do for the most part. It's not, you know, they're there. It's a little different than competition duck calling. It is. Duck calling, there's the long high balls, and it's evolved into that, and that's a whole other discussion. Goose calling, it's like, no, it's realistic stuff. But it is in a routine format, meaning, you know, there's 90 seconds and there's different things. So that's why I say watch former callers. Watch callers, watch routines, because then you understand the format and what you're supposed to do and sound like and kind of what's winning and all of that. And we can go in a whole, and Brooke picks on me and other guys, I'm very analytical from a mental toughness standpoint in contest calling. There's so many mental aspects to come in it. I've said this, it's 90% mental, 10% application. And that goes with a lot of things in life, especially in sports and no doubt in calling competitions. But if you are an accomplished caller, if you can handle the 90% metal, then the applying the 10% is easy. And that is with every calling. And every calling scenario you go into, every room's different, the acoustics are different. I mean, and I know this sounds crazy, but if I go into a contest arena and if there's carpet on the floor, I have a different technique.
Chris Jennings: I know that sounds crazy.
Kelly Powers: If it's an auditorium with concrete floors, I have a different technique. I'm facing different directions. The judges' locations, I'm facing different directions. There's a perfect prescription of what I would always do. And then since then, I love, I've coached guys that have won world and been fortunate a bit. I love that because I can harness their passion and their energy and I can kind of try to help coach them. And I tell them from the get-go, and Kyle was one that used to work with us and won the Rogue Goose, an incredible caller, but I would say, hey, look, if you can just listen to 50% of what I'm telling you, and then you take and apply it, but you be your own self too. Like, as a team, Nobody can beat that. Because so many people in calling contests, they go at it solo. And the people that might help them are only telling them what they want to hear, not what they need to hear. And even with Kyle, I was hard on Kyle. Look, if you're going to do this, I'm going to hurt your feelings and that's fine. But at the end of the day, we're together. So, there's so much of that mental aspect and there's so much of strategy and so much that goes into play. I mean, you can win. any kid or whatever, or adult that wants to get into it, I'd love to help them. I mean, and at the end of the day, calling contests in duck and goose is somewhat dying, and it's a little bit of sad because it's been so great for my career. Yeah. And I do still have a lot of passion for it, but I'd love to see it kind of keep going, you know, no doubt.
Brooke Richard: Oh yeah.
Kelly Powers: And if there's interest, I'd love to help them. And again, just because what I say doesn't necessarily mean it's the gospel, you know, I think there's a pretty strong track record, but I tell them I want to encourage them to have originality and be themselves, but then again, I want to be honest, and when you kind of hear good feedback, you know, I used to have it when I was in calling. I mean, one of my best friends, Brandon Fletcher, he won the World Open. He's one of the most talented guys I've ever been around. I remember I was doing a spit note. Alty Lanham was the first person I ever heard do the spit note. He did it at the Winchester World Open and he won it. I think it was in 2001, 2002. I was on the phone with Brandon. I was like, hey, what if we do the spit note, but what if I change it and what if I extend it? What if I extend it? But what if I tie it into a comeback with some cluck combination? So I'm talking with Brandon on the phone, and this is in 2001, and Brandon's like, yeah, but hey, why don't you put some inflection in it and quiver it with your hands? It completely changed the dynamics of it. But that was where Brandon was honest with me, and it was like, holy cow. So, having that type of person that kind of holds you accountable and tells you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear, you know, it makes it. So, if somebody's getting into contest calling, you know, rely on someone, especially if they're a current contest caller or former contest caller, and listen to them for advice, but always be yourself.
Brooke Richard: Anybody who ever approaches me about contest calling, I know what they want to do is they want to, you know, But what they're really going to get that they're going to appreciate a lot more if they take the journey of taking contest calling seriously. They're going to meet incredible people. They're going to get invited to hunt all over the planet. They're going to meet some of the best people they've ever met, and they're going to become a better caller. They're going to become better hunters. You're gonna have better friends, better opportunity. It's not about the trophy. I think I've blown in, I don't even know how many, a hundred plus contests. I think I've won six. I wouldn't trade any of those losses for the world. Just to be able to go to a different place, learn about that place's hunting, those people there, who those people are, learn something from them. Yeah, I've got lucky and won a few contests, but. The victory is not the trophy. It's cool, but the journey and the experience and what you're going to learn, both as a hunter and a caller, it's like that is the ride is the real world.
Kelly Powers: And some of my close friends, and even if you lose contact with them just because of life, you know, is through calling contests. And they're some of, I mean, it's kind of, they've gone on in life and they're working for certain outdoor companies or founded this outdoor company and, you know, it's kind of a common denominator of goose calling. And I've always said this too, selfishly, it's look at Goose Callers, even over the last 40, 30 years, Canada Goose Callers, and what they've accomplished in the outdoor industry. You know, and you, I mean, goodness, you, I mean, there's an endless name. I mean, obviously, Tim Browns, and you have Sean Mann, you have Harold Knight, you have Fred Zink. I mean, I could, Sean Starr, we can go on down the list and companies they've started and all of that.
Chris Jennings: Very common names for our listeners. I mean, look at, yeah, I mean, You've seen that name in DU Magazine a handful of times.
Kelly Powers: Yeah, and you're like, you know, I take pride of even Harold Knight, and I was like, oh, he's as big as Knight in hell was, you know, like, hey, he started as a goose guy, you know, great turkey, unbelievable turkey caller. He's a good, he's one of ours, like, you know, we're claiming him, you know, and same thing. Typical, typical.
Brooke Richard: I heard Harold's a spec owner, let's throw that out there.
Kelly Powers: And even Zink, you know, I mean, granted, you know, and started his call company and great turkey call, all that, you know, and, and, but hey, he's a goose guy. You know, and I always take pride of that. I always relate it back to, it's pretty difficult of mastering, you know, because of the techniques and the hands and the location and all that. It's a, you know, it's a instrument that a lot of goose callers are actually pretty dang good duck callers.
Brooke Richard: Yeah. Oh, there's no doubt. On a technicality standpoint, I give Kelly a tough time only because I'm not a candy goose caller, but it is by far, in my opinion, as a duck caller, spec caller, it is very intricate and it is not to be taken lightly. If you want to sound like Kelly sounds on this podcast, you're not going to get it overnight. It's just a level of technicality. Uh, and, and they are, I mean, every I've been all over the world, all over the country, I should say going to duck calling contest. If a goose caller, a good goose caller is there and I know he can blow a duck call, Robbie Iverson, Mike Benjamin. I'm like, I'm not even a duck caller. That guy's a goose caller and he's about to take my lunch. And they are, they're so technical. It's just, it's a different thing.
Kelly Powers: Well, we had a, we were, we were actually in, at uh, Credit Steward, Credit Stew. We were at Turkey Cat with Mossy Oak, and this is just two weeks ago in Texas, and we were talking about tube calls and turkey calling. Ernie Calendrier was there. We were all talking and I, you know, Harold Knight is, is regarded as one of the best on a tube call, turkey calls and all that. And then I, but I was like, Dave Coleman is one of the best you'll ever hear. And it's no knock on Harold, because Harold's unreal. But Dave Coleman on a goose call, or on a tube call, unbelievable. Like, and it's like, oh, you don't hear about that. And I saw there was even, there was some old video of him going around in 1982, you know, that from the world that he won. And like, oh my goodness.
Brooke Richard: The one real live goose three years in a row in this decade.
Kelly Powers: And one of the nicest gentlemen you'll ever, ever be around. But like, the sound of latex is so hard. I mean, it's unreal how it sounds, you know, and him running that tube calling a Canada goose, you know, and we haven't talked about using for turkeys, but like, it's hard to beat. And someone as good as Dave Coleman is or as Harold Knight, like, holy cow, like, That is different, you know. So, I encourage even all the listeners to go back and look at some of the history of that, you know. And you kind of see where these guys kind of got their start in their career and where they evolved from. And a lot of it comes from a proficient at a call, you know. And there's a skill level there and it's, you know, it's… And a confidence level.
Chris Jennings: Yeah. You know, I judged a call, a contest in Kansas City, I think in 2010. I would ask to be a guest judge. I need somebody, and I was probably low on the totem pole here at DU, and they're like, you got to drive to Kansas City. And I'd never judged one before. I mean, I kind of knew I'd been to them, but I'd never been an actual judge. And I turned around, and I forget who it was sitting next to me, former world, three-time world duck calling champion. Trey Crawford. Oh yeah.
Kelly Powers: One of the best feed calls ever known with Trey Crawford.
Chris Jennings: And I turn around and I literally look at him sitting there's two other like world champion duck haulers and there's me you know I'm not I'm not in that category and I look at that dude and I was like man I don't even really know what to do and he goes all right he's like for ducks he's like and geese he's like and I think it was just a me competition and he's like If that dude walks up on stage, he gets 70 points. He's like, because it's really tough to walk up on that stage. He's like, you gotta have confidence just to get there. And I was like, okay, you know, all right. And he's like, and then he kind of explained from there to there, but I always remembered that. Because it's like, you know, and then like you're saying with that mentality and these guys who are good with this are also good with this. You know, it's that confidence to walk up on stage and be ready to do whatever you planned on doing.
Kelly Powers: It's a lot of mental. And so much of that, like Brooke mentioned the mental, you know, Used to when, when, when first off the standard for the listeners that don't understand when you go to the stage, you're awarded a warm up period generally around 10 seconds. It's not timed, but they would say, call her number. You draw for a number behind stage. So they would say, call her number one, come to the stage, please. When you go to the stage. that ask, caller number one, do you want a warm-up? And you could shake your head yes or no. You can't verbally talk because the judges, you know, the judges can't see you. They're only going off audible sounds. They can only hear you. So you say yes or no if you want to have a warm-up.
Brooke Richard: You nod your head. You don't say, that was a trick. Yeah, exactly. He got you. Yeah, so you don't say anything. Kelly's never blown in one. He doesn't know. Yeah, yeah.
Kelly Powers: So you don't, you can't, you can't say anything, you know. So caller number one, do you want a warm-up? And I would, you know, nod your head yes. Before my time, most callers, what they would do is, you know, they just, you know, neither had judges. This is for score. And I always thought that was an incorrect approach. So and this goes in the middle aspect because I'm thinking, OK, I'm judging. And now that you're judging, let me see if this kind of raises the tone. When you're listening and there's caller number 27 that's come by, and you already listened to 26 callers, you're thinking, man, I wonder who won the ballgame back at home. How's the family doing? Let's be honest. Life happens. Okay? But hypothetically, let's just say it's the second round. Caller number 27's coming to the stage. And on your notes back there, you've got one caller that was caller number five the first round, but he did one particular thing that you really liked. So when I go into the second round, I'm anticipating that I'm winning this contest, and it's because of this one specific note. So I use that note in my warm-up, and I build a mini routine around that to get your attention. So then I want you to slide. So then what I do is I start my warm-up, and how I do my warm-up, number one, is silence. So I'll call armor 27, you want a warm-up, and judges is the warm-up. I just don't do nothing for a good five or six seconds. Because those judges that are thinking, hmm, I wonder who won the ball game, all of a sudden they're like, whoa, wait, what's going on? Is there, is something happening?
Brooke Richard: This is nice.
Kelly Powers: My ears don't hurt. I shouldn't say all this now, but I'm out of contest calling.
Chris Jennings: But it gives you, it differentiates your routine, even your practice routine.
Kelly Powers: So, if all five of those judges, all of a sudden, they're like, wait, what's going on? Whatever. Boom, I got them. I got their attention. Now you gotta deliver, because if you mess up at the beginning of your routine, they're gonna hear it and you're done. So you do that, you got their attention, well then I do my little mini routine. And I have it something, and a routine is just like a song. If you have a song that doesn't have a good chorus, it's not gonna be a hit. But if it has a good chorus, if it flows, if it naturally flows, and how, what I mean flows is you have to disguise when you take a breath. So like if I'm doing a segment, if I'm going in, and I'm constantly catching my breath or whatever, there's no flow to that. But if I have it to where I'll try to hide when I take a breath here on this little segment. So I took three breaths in that little segment, but I tried to sandwich it in just two little short clucks. I took a quick burst of air and all that. So if you can disguise when you take that breath, then that little segment that I just blew, it flows better. So it becomes like a good chorus and like a song. If it's got a good chorus, it's got a good hit. So it's appealing to listen to. So if I can do that in my warm-up and I include that little note, whether it's a spit note or any little thing that I think in the back of my mind, well, if they like me and they have me winning, it's probably because of what? So I try to exploit that and do it just a little bit in my warm-up to let them know here I am. So basically, in your scenario, okay, I'm caller number 27. Hey, man, I'm caller number 5 on your notes from the first round that you had winning. Listen to this. So then at that point, technically, I haven't even been started to judge, but I've already got you. And you're mine. You already know. Here's my winner. Here's a guy I have winning and you haven't even scored me for that first night. So then we sit down and then we start the routine. Now you have to deliver, you know, but for the most part, sometimes even if I do an average routine and maybe below what I did the first round, I have found statistically you're probably gonna give me the same score that you gave me the first round and even though I didn't do as good and if I was leading I've accumulated all five judges, I'm still winning the contest. Can't be wrong twice. Yeah.
Brooke Richard: And not only that, but if you do that, I call it the friend point, right? It's not a friend point, but in that judge's head, he's already given you a point better than everybody else. So if you do mess up, instead of getting a four, you'll probably get a six. Yeah.
Kelly Powers: He was going to give you a seven, you messed up, so then you're… So then here's where the last component comes in. You go through your full routine, and I always think in the back of my mind, okay, if I'm winning, it's because of what? So then I save my trump card. And it's generally one of the last two or three notes that I do. And I don't want to overuse it. I don't want to overplay it because then it doesn't become a positive, it becomes a negative. So if it's that little spit note, for me when I was really in the world, it was just one little mark. And quiver it well, I didn't do it at the front part of the weekend Whatever I want to be effective because when you're getting ready to write the score down Let's just say it's a final round you're judging between nine and a hundred. You're like boy. This guy's great, man Yep, he's a 97. So you've already written the nine down. You already know and you're fixing to write write a 97 That's you already started writing the seven down. I'm in the last five seconds of my routine all of a sudden. I boom, I'm going to give him an eight. Yeah. So, a cumulative down the road, so if every judge does that, well, there's five more points, you throw out the highest or the lowest, it's a positive three-point gain that I really didn't deserve. Yeah, that you just… So, when Brooke mentioned mental, me, like, I spent a whole career, it was like, I just, like, it's that mental cat-mouse game of getting in the head, and there's contests that I've won that I definitely shouldn't have, I'll be honest.
Chris Jennings: Yeah, you took advantage of the opportunities that you had. Yeah, and it's just like, just like Gooson.
Brooke Richard: Not only is Kelly excellent at all this, but I just want to throw out that we actually have real jobs. Kelly is a website genius. I do marketing. Kelly's that co-worker that you almost don't want to like because he's rarely wrong because he's so far ahead of you. He looks like he's behind you. He is like technical to a T, but he's right and there's a lot to learn.
Kelly Powers: Well, and I'm gonna say this too, though. Those are the, we always talk about with our TV show, you see edited footage, unedited footage. Is is failure and I've always said this like I've had my teeth kicked in the first year. I went to the world I come in the bottom four. Yeah, like and and when when I left that event, I thought they don't like my style of calling and I'm not coming back to this place. It's natural pushback. It's just like, you know what, it's their fault, not mine. The judges aren't right. That judge doesn't know anything. It's always natural pushback. And for some reason, when I saw what Brandon Bean was doing on the Goose call, and I saw that, I saw, for some reason, something clicked that summer where I saw opportunity. I thought, you know what, just because the road went left and it's not expected to go right, or just because I thought of this and it's this, you know, there's opportunity in failure. So, you know, it was something to where I learned then that, some of life's biggest accomplishments come after some of your biggest defeats. And it was just a turning point to me, like, you know what, you're going to get me today, you won, but I'm coming after you tomorrow, you know? And so there's so much defeat for me, like, it's just like a good friend of mine, Miles Adcox, and he does motivational speaking and all this, I'll never forget him telling us, like, Kelly, if you're not failing in life, you're not trying hard enough.
Brooke Richard: It's real deep. Speaking of failing, even though you are retired from contest calling by force because you've won champion-champions, how do you think you would fare today? If you had to practice between now and November to go compete in Easton, where do you think you'd come out?
Kelly Powers: Well, the competitive spirit in me says, oh, I'd win the thing.
Chris Jennings: That's what I wanted him to say, too.
Kelly Powers: I'm going to win the thing, absolutely. But realistic sets in. I have to put my time in. And people have asked me that before. Well, how would you fare against, you know, Listen, there are guys before my time that was in the same situation that were dominant, that if I gave them two weeks of practice and forced them, I wouldn't want to compete against them. And I think that's lost with a lot of callers today are like, oh man, that guy's a has-been or he's back in, he called in the day when this, the talent's there and the driver there. And there are so, I can name, there's so many callers today, I promise you, I can name current and old. that if you give them the time and the motivation and the heart, I don't want to compete against them. They're a monster, and they're that talented and that good, and everybody knows that. I mean, that's just reality. You know, I would love to say, oh yeah, absolutely, I'm going to go up there and win, you know? And I'd still say that, but reality is I may not. But I'm coming after you tomorrow. You know, I'm not afraid of failure. Like I'm not gonna be afraid of failure and that's just something but you learn when you fail and I've definitely failed a whole lot and but I've tried to find that right prescription just like working ducks or working geese, what works. Yeah, and you've succeeded a whole lot. And sorry to go like we can go way in depth of that.
Chris Jennings: No, no, that's good.
Kelly Powers: I get really passionate about the mental mental aspect of calling contests.
Brooke Richard: But that's the answer to the question though, right? What do you, what do I need to do to do it? That's where you need to be mentally. Yeah, that's right. Do you want to go in and be a successful contest caller? You better be ready to beat everybody else because they're trying to beat you.
Kelly Powers: I had a Kyle Ranallo, which, which is funny. He's like, man, do you think I did? I said, Kyle, you're top five in the world. He's like, oh, come on, you think? And at the time he was, you know, 11th or 12th and just being realistic. And he came down in August and we started working. I was actually going deer hunting. It was late, you know, right when bow season came in and we talked something for about five minutes and I said, all right, I'm gonna go deer hunting. And he's like, what do you mean? We just talked. I said, well, The brain can't necessarily comprehend something over about seven or eight minutes. I said, just pick out what we did, we'll come back and learn more, you know? And his nerves always destroyed him. Like, you know, and so many callers today, when they get on set, they beat themselves. I said, Kyle, the best thing you can do is when you walk on stage, first thing you do, I want you to trip your feet up and fall flat on your face. Like, literally, I want you to intentionally fall. Because after that, it gets better. It won't get any worse than that. Like then you have to feel comfortable on that stage, you know. And I said if you nerves are there, which a lot of people are, then you're beating yourself. You're not allowing your natural ability.
Brooke Richard: You lose your edge immediately.
Kelly Powers: Yeah, it goes back to that 90% mental 10%, you know, ability and application.
Chris Jennings: I mean, and that's, I mean, we're in reference, we're talking about competition calling, but that's the same, you know, you've got a flock of geese off in the distance, you lean up out of the blind or the pit or whatever, you still have to have that confidence to pick up that call and make those sounds.
Kelly Powers: I mean, that confidence has still got to be there. They have to buy what you're selling. If you're not, I've said this even in work and with employees, like, I don't care if you're wrong, but be confidently wrong. Because if you're not confident, especially in calling ducks and geese and turkeys, and it doesn't matter, they're not going to buy what you're selling. And there's so much hesitation put into a call to where you're unsure. And believe me, that goose knows that. That goose can sense that. Same thing with that duck. But if you're somewhat confident in your ability and turkey calling anything you're doing, then nine times out of ten, it's going to work.
Chris Jennings: That's awesome. I think we got a lot. Everyone's got a lot of work to do this summer ducks Specs, I'm gonna blow a goose call just so Kelly's forced to learn how to blow a spec call when he was talking I was actually sitting there and I was like I'd really need to work on my short read Canada because I Bet there's two or three times throughout the season at least this past season Where there's five or six of us in a blonde and all sudden you'll hear over a rice field you hear. Oh I was like, who's got a goose call? Who's got a Canada goose call? And not one of us has a Canada goose call. So it's like, all right, I'm just going to add it to the lanyard. And I have a bunch of calls, but I just don't have one on my lanyard. And I think before I get confident enough to just step out there, I'm going to have to do it.
Kelly Powers: You know, I don't have a spec call on mine yet.
Brooke Richard: That'll be the day. You can borrow Kipton's, your son's.
Chris Jennings: That's great. All right, guys, this has been fantastic. I appreciate y'all coming in, in the studio, getting the calls out, walking us through Kelly, you know, Canada Goose and competition. I think everything that you said is very enlightening for people who are interested in calling Canada, just calling in general. So I appreciate it. Thank you guys. Thanks. Thank you. I'd like to thank my guests, Brooke Richard and Kelly Powers for coming into the DU Podcast studio and really diving deep into calling this episode specific to Canada geese. And Kelly really broke it down. There's so much information here. You may have to rewind it. I'd like to thank our producer, Chris Isaac, for putting the show together and getting it out to you. And I'd like to thank you, the listener, for joining us on the DU Podcast and supporting wetlands conservation.