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Rich Matukaitis, partnerships lead at Rebuy, joins the show to break down why the agencies winning with AI are using it to increase capacity instead of cutting corners, and why trust is becoming the ultimate competitive edge.
Agency Forward explores the future of agencies as tech and AI drive down the cost of tactical deliverables. Topics include building competent teams, developing strategic offers, systemizing your business, and more.
New episodes delivered every Tuesday.
Chris DuBois 0:00
Hey everyone! Today I'm joined by Rich Medicaidis. Rich is a partnerships lead at Rebuy, the e-commerce personalization platform for Shopify brands. He spent four years at Shopify before joining Rebuy, and he got to start as a business owner himself, building an online booking system for hairdressers. Now, I wanted to have Rich on because he works with hundreds of agencies and 1000s of brands through Rebi's partner program, which gives him a front row seat to which agencies are actually pulling ahead with AI and which ones are getting left behind chasing shortcuts. In this episode, we discuss why the agencies winning with AI are using it to add capacity, not cut headcount. How to stay human and keep your critical thinking sharp when everyone has access to the same tools? Why trust, not claims of being the best, is becoming the real currency for agencies and more. No one was asking for another community, but I've made one anyway. So what's different? The dynamic agency community is designed around access rather than content, access to peers who've done it before, access to experts who've designed solutions, access to resources that have been battle tested, and right now the price for founding members is only $97 a year. Join today so your agency has immediate access to everything you need to grow, you can join a dynamicagency dot community. And now, Rich Madikinis. It's easier than ever to start an agency, but it's only getting harder to stand out and keep it alive. Join me as we explore the strategies agencies are using today to secure a better tomorrow. This is Agency Four. forward. Which agencies are surviving AI, and why?
Rich Matukaitis 1:51
Yeah, I mean, this I think is more than just a broader. It's more than specifically just an agency question. I think that when AI kind of entered the chat, it was more of like, you know, kind of like a cost reduction sort of tactic. Like, who can we replace with this? You know, how can we lean out what we're spending? But I think what I'm noticing now is the companies that are doing this really well have actually turned it more into a capacity benefit. So it's not so much how can we get rid of people. It's like how can we get them to output more in their day. And I think that if you start taking some of the menial tasks that oftentimes would occupy so much of your bandwidth in a day, and replace that with something that can be automated or a framework that you can repeat over and over again, this gives you the time to go back into what people are paying you for in the first place. That intellectual property, that that individual nuance that kind of separates you. So yeah, I would say the ones that are leveraging it for increased bandwidth versus trying to cut corners.
Chris DuBois 2:45
I felt that probably right from the start when everyone started making cuts. It was like we harp on this idea that AI gives you like 5x the capacity per person, but we're willing to fire four of our five person teams. So now we just have the same team that we did before, but if we could have those five now with 5x like we're at you know 25% operating capacity. So just like numbers wise, I feel like we could have done the math on this and seen this coming. Yeah.
Rich Matukaitis 3:14
Well, and also, I mean, once we start getting into the point where you know we've fed all of these LLMs all of our data, their pricing structures are not going to stay this way forever. They are very expensive to maintain. So the cost per person, all of a sudden, you know, Joey the intern is going to look a much better option if we teach him how to use these tools versus replacing the complete output of a human with these machines, right? I mean, also while killing the planet, but that's a that's a whole other story. Yeah, no,
Chris DuBois 3:39
Fable Five is like the perfect example of that. Like they, it's out right now. You can use it for for free, essentially, like with your subscription plan and Claude. But starting next Wednesday, the the price goes up, and it becomes the most expensive model out there. And so it's like, how many people are actually going to be using the model when it's like it's just costing you even more now to use this thing.
Rich Matukaitis 4:03
Yeah, and I think another thing worth noting is you know in the way that teams are still adopting this, we've got people that are being encouraged from the top down to leverage these tools. But who's actually overseeing the usage of them? Right. If we've got 15 people all working in cloud trying to accomplish the same thing, is that really more effective? So I think what we'll start to see is specialized roles. I mean, we're already seeing it, but specialized roles who are actually in charge of implementing these systems and solutions, so that you know you're not burning through your tokens. You're not you know kind of wasting that that perceived bandwidth increase on trying to figure out how all these things work and you know where that source of truth kind of lives within an organization.
Chris DuBois 4:39
Yeah, I think so. I can't remember exactly which company. I believe it was Ford. Someone's gonna tell me I'm wrong in the comments. I'm sure, but the they actually went back to hiring more of their like they're calling them graybeard developers because they actually want people supervising and doing more of that hard work because they've realized they're. Their code is actually getting worse in all the things that they're developing for their vehicles.
Rich Matukaitis 5:05
Well, yeah, I mean the quality check is everything. I mean, you know, it's I'm definitely a proponent of you know leveraging technology and things like that. But like right now, we're just kind of like shooting into a barrel and hoping that it works, right? So I think we'll see it start to streamline and get a little bit more intentional. But right now I think everybody's in that like shiny object phase of just like look what I can do and see how far they can go with, without having the you know the resources or the bandwidth or the the knowledge to be able to actually fact check what's being spit out of these things, right?
Chris DuBois 5:31
Right. So how do you like personally stay human while leaning on AI?
Rich Matukaitis 5:38
Yeah. Well, I mean, again, like nothing's going to be able to replace that kind of like human touch, right? I think what I leverage it for is not necessarily to think for me. I use it to complete, you know, admin tasks. I use it to do things that allow me to then inject myself into it. Whereas I feel like I can see, like especially on LinkedIn, it's just like I don't even not to say I don't use it, but it's just the content on there now. I'm just I can tell who's using what, what you know, which like which AI tools they're using just based on the language. So I think again, because we have to realize that these tools are mainstream. Everybody in their house now knows what ChatGPT is more or less. So it's like if you're starting to give results or you're starting to produce output that is identifiable by AI, you're going to lose your credibility, or it's going to be like, why am I paying you in the first place? So, I think you know, staying sharp, staying nuanced in terms of like your own personal experience, not just a broader collective answer to a question or a solution, you know, to a problem with a merchant or whatever that looks like, I think you still have to be able to keep it human to be able to distinguish yourself away. Even at this point, I find I have to use for certain language because, like, oh, you're very articulate. This must be an LLM output. I'm like, no, I just read books. Like, so there's this whole thing of like, we're not arguing with people for like for what, you know? So, I think just making sure that you don't lose your critical thinking skills is going to be the biggest challenge of the coming years for sure,
Chris DuBois 7:06
right? I think there's the whole argument too that if if you're going to use AI to do all of these things, why can't the client just use AI to do all of those things? Because I think a lot of them already have the belief that they can, like they're willing to give ChatGPT to an intern, and they're just like do my marketing strategy, and like, and they imagine that it's going to work, and so yeah, the keeping the human element here, and like the critical thinking that comes with that, I think is is paramount.
Rich Matukaitis 7:33
Well, and it's like I realize like the craft is in the prompt, right? So I think that being able to successfully prompt an LM is is night and day difference in terms of what you're going to get as an output. But mind you, if you're all looking for a solution to the same problem, you're all speaking to the same brain. You're all going to get the same results. I was speaking to an agency actually who was hiring, and I forget what the question was, but it was for a marketing role. And essentially, you know, they received I think about 15 different cover letters that all had the exact same copy, so it's like you're hiring from a marketing position and you're using this to solve this. It's like at that point, yeah, I don't know. I just I think people are getting a little bit too comfortable too quickly, but it's because of how easy it's become to open up your browser, type something in, and you're like, wow, this is very impressive. But it's like, how many other 1000s of people are typing that same question and getting the same answer. So, I'm just like waiting for that to crash, and you know, go back to using our brains.
Chris DuBois 8:28
Yep. Yeah, I was reading an article about how the people are using AI to create their applications, and then all the companies are using AI to sort through the applications. So now no one's getting hired, and what a perfect little circle we've made for ourselves.
Rich Matukaitis 8:43
Well, and it's like okay, at the end of the day, like I don't frown on people using it, but I think again, if you're just taking the bare bones of what it spits out and not adding any or injecting anything into it, that's where I kind of have an issue with it. So you know, to the kind of in terms of like agencies that I see just doing really well, I feel like again when we talk about things like bandwidth. You know, if you need AI to do like your first pass research, for example, when you're studying a client, that often would take so much time. Or market research. These are all things that from that information lives. That information is just like static information that doesn't really require much nuance or context. So to use it for things like that, you know, for competitive audits like battle cards, almost like that. I can see it saving you a ton of time. Where before you'd have to go and scour and do all of that, great. But again, when your strategy is being output from like a marketing agent that you built, it's like, ugh, that's where it gets a little dicey for me. And you can definitely tell. I mean, even with the websites that I see some agencies hosting themselves on, it's like everybody knows what a cloud HTML output page looks like, so I don't see there being an issue with that. But if you're a creative agency and you're doing design and build and you know creative strategy and branding, I don't want to see that template. Like I'm sorry, it's just kind of like I don't know. It's the same thing as having a bad website when you're doing like CRO audits. It's like if your own website is. Not great, then I'm going to be a little bit reluctant to want to work with you in the first place,
Chris DuBois 10:04
right? Yeah, there are definitely ways. Like one of my clients pulls, so he's a web shop. He's figured out how to pull everything from a site's branding, including some of their imagery, to create like a style for them. But he's still putting his own tweaks on everything and making it look good. It's just he doesn't have to spend three hours coming through their website to pull all the right pieces. It's now 30 minutes. He has that, and then can go spend the other two and a half hours building everything. So you get a better result, really.
Rich Matukaitis 10:34
Yeah, and I think that's it. Like you know, to cut your productivity in half a little bit. There's nothing wrong with that. I think that's just smart. That's just in the world we live in, especially with the state of urgency that excuse me everybody has for everything. They usually want it done yesterday. They want it done for this amount of money. So now you can be a little bit more flexible because you're able to produce clean results, at least a foundational result, much much quicker. So I encourage that. I just think that's efficient. But you know, when we kind of get into replacing yourself or your your kind of the whole project with something like that. It's like I don't I don't like that.
Chris DuBois 11:08
Yeah, yeah, man. Good direction. I don't know if this is the right direction to go with part of this. I'll keep names out of it. One of my buddies has a product in a specific marketplace, large ecosystem for Martech, and essentially just created a product that's going to replace their entire business. But in doing so, it's also going to replace nearly everyone in this ecosystem. It works to like have evidence, and so the ecosystem is probably going to say, "No, you can't launch this because it's going to kill everything happening here. And so it's very interesting that like that can happen today.
Rich Matukaitis 11:47
Well, yeah, but I mean, at the end of the day, too, I think there's going to come like with anything. There's going to be a certain level of fatigue that people will go through, and I think that that's ultimately what I'm kind of waiting to see. There are people that are just being, you know, pushed out, that are being overlooked, that are maybe not even being considered because everyone's so confident in what we can replace with AI or you know machine learning or whatever that is, but I'm waiting for this surges to kind of pop. Whether it's because of pricing, whether it's because of accessibility, whether it becomes too diluted, whatever that looks like. But I mean, it's just natural part of just like evolution as humans. Like these things happen, it sucks. But I still think there's a place for people who have, you know,
Chris DuBois 12:25
yeah,
Rich Matukaitis 12:26
kind of like a unique perspective on whatever it is that they're building. I think that's ultimately what people will start paying a lot more for is that that nuanced kind of intellectual property versus like someone just building with their hands.
Chris DuBois 12:38
Yeah. So I guess how how do I frame this question? The to demonstrate that nuanced thinking, that criticalness that says I am worth you paying me. How do how does an agency get that out there?
Rich Matukaitis 12:54
Yeah, well, I think right now, like I notice a lot of agencies that are more generalists. I think in a generalist position, you're not looking for something that's super nuanced. You know, if that's just like a quick tweak on a website, if that's you know a basic marketing plan or strategy for a new brand, those things are pretty table stakes at this point. But what I'm seeing is like when you have brands, big brands that everybody knows and loves, that are going through a rebranding process or that are trying to reinvent themselves. It's like that niche or that specialization is going to be something that will clearly separate you from everybody else. And if you've got a track record to prove it, you know this is the creative strategy that we came up with. This is how we did it. This is the result we produced. People will pay triple, quadruple for that versus like here's a bare bones basic website that will allow you to at least start transacting for the first time on that. You know,
Chris DuBois 13:41
right. Right. So I guess where do you see the future of of the space when so like right now anyone with a laptop can become an agency, right? They're guys are sitting in their mom's basement right now hammering away at some website. But I worked with most of yeah yeah most of them are are not like they haven't achieved the the skill level to be able to do all of the things on their own, but they have AI in their hands now, and so a lot of that nuanced thought is something they're never actually going to achieve because they're relying on a tool. And so, for the industry as a whole, what does that mean? The bigger players just keep getting bigger, or
Rich Matukaitis 14:21
well, I mean, I feel like it's already kind of like that, to be honest with you. So it's like a lot of bigger agencies can rely on their logos because they have a track record, they have a reputation. But to cut through that noise now is going to be significantly more difficult because everybody, to your point, with a laptop can build an agency or even build a website. At this point, people can build apps with things like Lovable. So it's like, what really are you buying from the agency? What really is the agency giving you that you can't do on your own at this point? So yes, I do think that big companies will continue to maintain that that reputation, but you know only as much as the tools don't allow you to become a differentiator. So it's like there's going to be an overlap, or kind of like a you know. Curve where I think these things will intersect, but I also don't think there's anything wrong with being a generalist. There are people who just want that basic website. There are people who just want to be able to build something in half the time. So knowing what it is that you specialize in and clearly defining what that positioning is is ultimately going to be what separates you from the rest. Right? If you if you can flat out say, yeah, we use AI to build websites in less than 24 hours. That's valuable to a lot of people, and I think the transparency, the honesty, and integrity is ultimately what I think most good businesses are built on.
Chris DuBois 15:33
Yeah, as a positioning coach for agencies, I can agree with that. Oh, there you go. And well, and speaking of of our own jobs, give me a like a few lines on rebuy, and we can start getting into like partnerships stuff like that.
Rich Matukaitis 15:51
Yeah. So just for context, so I was at Shopify for about four years. I'm a business owner myself, so you know, working as a hairdresser, was trying to scale my own kind of online booking process discovered Shopify immediately became obsessed working with brands or just humans really that got on themselves and went all in. Decided after four years to wanting to spread my wings. This was just during COVID. I was selling point of sale hardware and software to businesses that were closed. It felt a little bit invasive to me, so you know explored my options. I joined Rebuy, so Rebuy in and of itself kind of hijacks the entire online experience from homepage to post purchase through personalization. So recommended cross sells, upsells that take into consideration your customers' behavior, you know how they discovered your online store in the first place, and essentially we're able to sell the right products at the right time. So we do use a bit of an AI engine that basically aggregates all of your store data to make sure that if they're looking at this product, chances are they're going to want to buy this product with it. So, you know, I said like what we replace is traditionally with Shopify, you're showing the same products or collections to every single customer that walks through your store. I equate that to holding up a shoe in a shoe store and hoping that it fits everybody that comes through the door. Not the case. So, what we're able to do is hyper personalize that based off of things like previous purchase history, you know, UTM traffic, geolocation, so that you know we're not showing bathing suits to people in Toronto in the middle of December. So, yeah,
Chris DuBois 17:13
awesome. And so, do you guys mainly partner with like web design agencies that are building on Shopify, content agencies. Who are the who's the ideal audience here?
Rich Matukaitis 17:26
Yeah, I mean, any agency that's working with a brand that has a website, like you know, there's people that will only do, let's say, performance marketing. But it's like, okay, great. If the performance marketing strategy is working, what is actually happening when they get to the online store? So there are ways where people can still continue to focus on what it is they specialize in, while still continuing to add more value through tools like Rebuy. I mean, we've seen it for years with agencies that build and manage Klaviyo for their brands. I'm noticing that personalization now is becoming a huge differentiator in terms of how do we retain the traffic that we're at least getting to the website, and personalization is a big one on how they're doing that, so it's not a one size or it's not it's not a one size fits all, and it's also not a one and done solution. I think you know as seasons change, as certain pinnacle events for the year come up, you know, so so does a marketing calendar for a brand, so to speak. So we're able to work alongside brands and the agencies that build for them to make sure that regardless of the time of year, their website still looks relevant to every single person that passes through, not just one cohort.
Chris DuBois 18:27
Right. I think it's interesting too because I imagine the the data that like equip you can equip an ad agency with by seeing like, hey, for someone comes to the site, these are the other products that they are most likely to purchase. We can now retarget ads with that, get them get them pulled in. Maybe we even take that initial ad and we show multiple products because they're all related in some way. And now we're really hooking this person. Like it's like a multi level kind of partnership here, where you can be. It's not just like a you do this, I'll do this. It's like we can actually truly benefit from having each other.
Rich Matukaitis 19:01
Yeah, the value is incremental for sure, and I think again when we talk about brands, what they're what they're looking to accomplish, it's like going to a doctor and diagnosing yourself. Half the time, they know what they want, but they don't know why they need it or what why that specific thing. So, I think with what we're able to do is, you know, if they're looking to let's say cut down their tech stack by you know 20 30% okay, well, uninstall all of these apps. Install Rebuy. We've done that almost overnight. So it's like the speed at which you're able to solve for a lot of these common issues while identifying or poking holes in other parts of that business strategy. All of a sudden, with Rebuy at the helm, you then have data to be able to back it up. You've got performance metrics. You've got reports at the widget level. So without having to use something like you know heat maps or anything like that, you can now basically see where products are being added in during the customer journey, which products are performing the best, which ones are not performing at all, and you can leverage that in your merchandising strategy rather than having to speculate or do more generalized broad reports. You can actually see which pages are performing the best. And kind of you know carry that through the rest of the website. And for agencies, you can then take this data and leverage it for every other merchant in that same vertical. We tried this with this brand. We know this works, so we can almost take some of that foundational best practice strategy and create frameworks around it that just that work, right? Without having to give away that you know IP of X Y Z brand, you can start to pick up on trends, and you know which which tools are going to create the biggest result, the lowest lift, vertical to vertical.
Chris DuBois 20:28
So everyone claims to be data driven. As you see, it's one actually one of the terms. I just did a presentation this week for a group, and I looked up the three most frequently used terms on agency websites, and it's like we're we're growth oriented. It's like one of them, like growth driven. Data driven is another one. We have a great team. It's like all the things that's. But anyway, right. But with data driven, I so it's you guys truly are data driven. Like you are looking at the numbers here, when I'm creating marketing campaigns with my clients, we are looking at the data like we're building hypotheses that says we believe if we do X, we're going to achieve Y. Here's how we know it. We've collected all this data, and we're gonna. These are the gates we need to hit in order to see if this works. How how much of a struggle is it to get like partners to to see and use that data in their marketing and with their clients. Like it sounds great up front, right? But
Rich Matukaitis 21:28
yeah, I think I think it's just a matter of kind of normalizing it. So I mean, when it comes to our partner program, this is kind of where I'm able to bridge that gap for them. I don't expect them to become experts or see things the way that I'm able to, given the fact that I've worked with 1000s of brands and hundreds of agencies, but I think that a good partnership shouldn't require you to do that. So for me, it's about getting on a call, walking them through the data, so that they can start to see it through a lens, so that I see it through, and then at that point, they'll start choosing that data first. Oftentimes, because you know, again, when you've got a bloated tech stack, you've got information that lives across eight different dashboards and Shopify, maybe even triple whales, and it becomes a little bit convoluted. So when we can just create one report that shows you the entire store's performance from homepage right to post purchase, and even into like your Clavio integrations, it'll just become the obvious choice for that first party data and customer behavior like analysis, so to speak.
Chris DuBois 22:20
Yeah, that's a. So I have a full. My methodology is briefly. There's 11 different levers that you can pull on for differentiation, and we want to stack as many of those as we can, because like gone are the days of being like we're the only ones who work with this industry. It's like no, yeah, not very. I love those
Rich Matukaitis 22:39
claims. That still happened, but yeah, it's good.
Chris DuBois 22:42
Like delivery models, another. We're the only agency that does this, and it's like
Rich Matukaitis 22:47
yeah,
Chris DuBois 22:48
yeah. But now if it does work, right? Someone's going to copy it tomorrow, and now you're not. So, so anyway, we find the
Rich Matukaitis 22:54
beautiful websites on the internet. I'm like, have you seen every website on the internet? Like, how can you? It's a moot. It's a moot point. 100%
Chris DuBois 22:59
But so instead, we find the ones that we're we're towards the top of the pack, like we're doing really well, and then we stack them so that now it's actually something hard to copy. What you're essentially equipping agencies with is like one of the levers that I use methodology and IP. If like if you have some data, proprietary data that you can use that others can't, it is an advantage that a reason people would want to work with you, and so if if I can start working with a client, show them all of their data quickly, and say like, look, this is these are all the numbers. This is what we're making decisions on. It lets you make decisions faster. Lets us help you make decisions faster. Like that's a huge competitive advantage right now.
Rich Matukaitis 23:40
Well, and also gives them another reason to justify paying you. I think again, when we go back to you know the claims that we're making or what it is that we're actually still offering to brands, I think being able to specify the outcome is huge versus the breadth of what you're capable of. Well, we can do everything. Okay, well, so can this agency, and so can this agency. But the more you can drill down on what we're going to do and how we're going to do it, leveraging the data points that you have available to you. The more they're going to be like, okay, well, what else can you do? Like, you'll they'll start to trust you, and once you build that trust, you've you've got them for life. I mean, most brands, I think it's you know, especially kind of in the capacity with some of the agencies that I work with. Everybody wants these huge logos. Everybody wants the you know Kylie Cosmetics to be able to add to their website, but I'm like, wouldn't you rather be the agency that took X brand into that kind of status because of your strategy? So I think you know, at the end game for like, what what is the goal of your agency at this point? People who are starting agencies just to try and make a quick buck, it's like no. And also people that are you know unable to differentiate or position themselves, and you know, generalists that are undercutting kind of the average market value. It's like I feel like you'll burn out quite quickly with that. It's not scalable. So yeah, being very specific, and I think that data is obviously the best way to control that outcome.
Chris DuBois 24:55
Yeah, I mean, if you can quantify everything you're doing, like all of the things you're trying to qualify. You can also quantify them, like it's an edge. So let's look five years out. What agency skills do you think are still untouchable?
Rich Matukaitis 25:11
Yeah, I think the ability to earn trust. Like I really do think that because you know AI tools and stuff like that are going to be kind of like household household accessible things in whatever capacity the average person is using them. I think there's never going to stop somebody from doing a first pass on their own. And if they see something that was generated for free in a consultation with the agency, you're going to have to work a lot harder to build that trust. So yeah, I think you know persuasion is also going to be something that a lot of people are going to be ready for. They're going to say, "What questions should I be prepared for, or what things is this agency going to, you know, try and kind of sell to me, and what things should I look out for? So I think that a lot of people are doing way more due diligence and have access to way more of that type of information. So trust is going to be the biggest currency, and yeah, I think that's that's going to be the first thing. If you can't build that, it's it's going to be a downhill battle for sure.
Chris DuBois 26:08
Yeah, I liked. Have you read the book The Experience Economy?
Rich Matukaitis 26:12
No.
Chris DuBois 26:13
So definitely worth a read. But the they make a pretty good argument about there was once a let's see, the oil economy was like really big. If you owned the oil, like you were the one who who was going to succeed. Then if you moved into the data economy, you were the one who controlled all the data. You were you're the winner. And then they're arguing that we're moving into the experience economy. This was years ago, so probably moving out of it at some point. But I really do think there is a trust economy here, where it's like the the the person who owns the trust is the one who is going to command the most business, even if it's you pointing them to other businesses, right? Like,
Rich Matukaitis 26:58
yeah. I mean, my favorite thing to tell people is no honestly, like there are instances where you know, depending on the complexity of what somebody's looking to accomplish, maybe rebuy isn't the best tool for that. Or if they're looking for specific data points, I'm not going to bullshit them through. Oh well, well, well, no, because at that point, everything I say, they're going to have to back check, and like at that point, you're wasting time and money. So I think, yeah, for me, if it's a no, sometimes that's the best answer, and to get there quickly is even better.
Chris DuBois 27:26
Yeah, oh man, the I just met with a man. I'll keep I'll keep all these vague. The I hate mentioning brands when I'm saying anything negative. So, but it was a someone who's in competition with a different company that I'm partnered with, and I I let them know before meeting with me, like I'm interested in hearing you out, but like I am partnered with these guys, and their entire like positioning pitch was like we're better than everyone else, and it's like okay, but every feature you've brought up to me is actually they can actually do it, and things you've actually told me they can't do, I I know they can because I'm using it and like I see it, so like yeah, how is that that different? But like I lost a lot of trust in that conversation because it's like it's obviously just trying to get me in here. Yeah,
Rich Matukaitis 28:12
yeah. Well, I love the sponsored like links on Google when you Google like Rebuy, for example, and another company will come up saying like better than Rebuy. It's like I just feel like that's so cheap. You know what I mean? It's like if you truly are, it's like you know you shouldn't have to tell me how good you are. It should just show. So I really think again, like yeah, like you just you lose a bit of like credibility. I find when you're under you have to undercut people or solutions in order to make yourself look better. I feel that's just human nature. But again, I think the right companies won't have to do that, and they'll attract the right people. Which it won't be a numbers game; it'll be a longevity game. And I think for any brand or agency, that's the ultimate goal. It's like in a world where everybody is an agent, you know, an agency. To your point, you know, it's becoming pretty diluted. So I think that you know, volume. There's enough volume to go around, but how long are you actually keeping those clients? How how much are you going to have to continue to replace clients month over month over month? Or if you find let's say 20 to 30 that you can retain for 10 years, like I'd much rather the second option.
Chris DuBois 29:13
Right? Yeah, 100% I think there's there's something to making the claims like we're better. Where it's like if if I call myself generous, nobody nobody's believing. believing I'm generous. But if they see me donating with charities and like all of these things, like then yeah, my actions have now spoken and it makes sense. Like so yeah, someone bidding on that keyword to say like we're better than them. It's like I don't trust that, but I'm gonna click on it just to charge you for for the click. That's
Rich Matukaitis 29:39
dude. The number of times that I've done that, but I know to kind of like to circle this all the way back. It's like I think the agencies that are going to win are the agencies that understand what it is that they do, and they know how to get there consistently every time without having to cut corners. I mean, in the in the right ways, right? If you can cut corners in the right ways, so that you have more capacity for. Or the intellectual property for that critical thinking for that creative strategy, I think that's worth its weight in gold. Even if it takes you a little bit longer to get to the end result, I think that you know we'll get to a point where the quickest answer isn't always the best answer. And I think I'm ready for that to kind of become the reality again.
Chris DuBois 30:15
Cheers. Okay, as we wind down here, I got two more questions for you. First one being, what book do you recommend every agency owner should read?
Rich Matukaitis 30:25
Well, I mean, this is not necessarily an e-commerce specific book, but it's called Authentic, and it's a memoir by the founder of Vans, like the shoe company. It is such an incredible story about how, like, such a simple shoe through branding and authenticity really becomes your ultimate business strategy. So, I highly recommend anybody that's trying to differentiate themselves or stay authentic to read the book "Authentic" by the Paul Van Doren is his name.
Chris DuBois 30:52
Awesome! Yeah, it's the first time that book's been recommended.
Rich Matukaitis 30:55
I was actually recommended to me by a colleague that's one of the I think founders, CEO of Barrel, an agency based in New York City. Speaking of, you know, more niche down agencies, they specifically only do CPG brands, and they do it really, really, really well. So, if you want an example of what it looks like to really find your niche and run with it, definitely check out Barrel, based in New York City. And yeah, shout out to them!
Chris DuBois 31:21
Awesome. The last question is: Where can people find you?
Rich Matukaitis 31:27
Well, they could find me in Sydney, Australia, currently, but on LinkedIn, Rich Madakitis, Reby's partner page. If you're ever curious to know what partnering with Revi looks like, please feel free to reach out to myself. Happy to jump on a call. But yeah, LinkedIn is probably the easiest way.
Chris DuBois 31:44
Awesome, Rich. Thanks for joining.
Rich Matukaitis 31:46
Thanks for having me.
Chris DuBois 31:51
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai