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Nuance is a podcast of The Collaborative helping Christians to faithfully live out their faith in their work. We recognize most of life is not lived in black and white but rather lived in the gray, lived in the nuance.
You can find more, including complementary spiritual exercises, at www.collaborativeorlando.com/nuance.
Do you really know your neighbors? Do you know their names? Do you know their kids or their jobs, their situation? And look, it doesn't mean you have to be buddy buddy with everybody, but that tendency in our society to just pull back in our comfortable air conditioned Netflix homes, It doesn't give opportunity for gospel conversation.
Speaker 2:Hi, friends. My name is Katie Shuck, and today I'm back to turn the tables on your regular host, your regular Nuance host, Kay Thorp. Last time, he and I talked about why faith belongs in the public square, and we talked about presence, formation, the long view, and it was a good conversation. And several of you wrote in to say so. A few of you wrote in with a different kind of note, and the notes went something like this.
Speaker 2:So, yes, I believe. Faith belongs in public. I believe. And faithful presence, I've tried, and I am tired. My neighbors are not interested in the conversation.
Speaker 2:The city I live in does not feel like a parish. And my workplace feels like a place that treats my convictions as a liability. So what do I do now? And that's the conversation I want to have with Case today. My guest again is Case Thorp, who is my pastor, theologian.
Speaker 2:He's the founder of the Collaborative and now apparently my monthly or quarterly. Is it quarterly? I think we're quarterly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We're shifting to quarterly.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. So, Case, welcome back to my podcast now.
Speaker 1:This is fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I like it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I had a lot of great feedback from the last time we did it this way. And so, you know, one of our goals this year is to mix up the content. It needs to be more than one voice.
Speaker 2:I love it. I'm excited. What's new with you, Case? What's new in
Speaker 1:your world? Oh my goodness. Well, we are filming or recording this quite a bit earlier than it might post, but my son, Charles, my heart leaves this afternoon for eight weeks in Spain. I'm so jealous.
Speaker 2:Where is he going?
Speaker 1:Well, he's doing an FSU program in Valencia, Spain. Yeah. Yeah. South Of Barcelona.
Speaker 2:I went to Spain a few summers ago. It was great.
Speaker 1:You did that program?
Speaker 2:I well, two things. One, yes. I did that program many many years ago and I went to London.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I did go to Spain for a fun trip, like, two years ago in the summer. It was great.
Speaker 1:When it's over, he's gonna take about ten days and take the train around the Cote D'Izzo French Riviera and then
Speaker 2:Good for him.
Speaker 1:See buddies in Florence fly out from Rome. Good.
Speaker 2:That'll be fun.
Speaker 1:When this drops, he probably will be home and have had a great experience.
Speaker 2:I love it. Yeah. I love it. That's so fun.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to get over there, but it's so expensive. I can't I can't figure out how to do it
Speaker 2:It is.
Speaker 1:And not break the bank.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. 'm going to welcome our listeners to Nuance. It's a podcast that explores what it means to be faithful in the public square as followers of Jesus. And if this episode is worth your time, pass it along to a friend, colleague, a neighbor.
Speaker 2:A like, a share, and a comment goes a long way. We would appreciate those. Case, are you ready to dig in?
Speaker 1:Bring it.
Speaker 2:Alright. So last time, you described faithful presence as patient, embedded, and hopeful work, and I wanna talk a little bit about the patience part. When you have shown up faithfully in a public space, like a board, a school, a civic conversation, and it's cost you something, what did the cost actually look like?
Speaker 1:Well, for fourteen years, we lived in Colonial Town and never had one issue with neighbors. And we moved just before COVID to our current home, and we've had a couple of run-in the papers. We didn't it. Like, we didn't change. And I don't wanna blame it on them, but so during COVID, we got chickens.
Speaker 1:And who knew you needed to check zoning laws? Like, what are zoning laws? Why wouldn't they pertain to chickens? And we're about a 100 well, maybe three or 400 yards from the Orlando city line. So we're technically in the county And different rules.
Speaker 1:Well, the former neighbors on one side of us were very, very upset. And at first, it was because they were too loud on their side of the house. And look, I get it. They were right and we were out of zoning compliance. So we moved them and they still weren't happy and so they turned us into zoning.
Speaker 1:And there's a thousand dollar fine a day, Katie
Speaker 2:Oh my god.
Speaker 1:If you don't get them off your property. So I'm panicked. And also, we we had been scheduled for a court date to hear about this. Mhmm. Zoning court.
Speaker 1:And thankfully, I I know you may know Ryan and Jamie Smith. They live on the other side of Lake Ginny Jewell from where we are and offered to foster our chickens while we figure this out. So we quickly moved them, found out later that as long as you move them within thirty days, the fines and the court case court date disappear. But my wife, Jody, began a effort to get the Orange County zoning laws changed. And we quickly found out online from a couple of Facebook chicken pages, there are such things, There was great momentum and desire for such.
Speaker 1:She reached out to the Orange County Office of Sustainability, they had tried many years ago and failed to allow for backyard chickens and were thrilled to have her help them lead the charge. And so this resulted in a number of meetings with county and commissioners even to the county commission. And over at one point, the Orlando Sentinel caught wind of this, took a picture of Jody on the front page of the paper, all dressed up from work because she didn't have time to get a picture done, but she stopped in and she's got chickens on her shoulders and she's all dressed up. Well, the neighbors found out about it and tried to launch a resistance campaign. That that sounds a little intense.
Speaker 1:Resistance campaign. It's not like they're gorillas in the mountains of Colombia or something. But finally, it resolved in a hearing at the Orange County Council. Jody shows up with 28 women in yellow t shirts with the big black chicken silhouette on the front. And I knew we had the vote when, like, four of the council members, the commissioners picked up their phones and took pictures of all these ladies walking in the chamber.
Speaker 1:So she won. But it was hard as you can imagine with the neighbors.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And there were some unfortunate texts. Well, I like peace and so the day before the final hearing, I noticed my neighbor's garage was open and he was in there working. So I walked over there and peep my head around the corner and I said, hey, you know, I just wanted to come over and connect with you before we show up tomorrow. And he was furious, furious and lit into me verbally accosting me. I I did think for a second, might this get physical but it didn't.
Speaker 1:And he put it point blank, Case, you're a pastor, right? Where's this whole love your neighbor stuff with your chickens? And we felt just in moving forward with this because their accusation were that they smelled, they don't. They were drawing rats, they weren't. And I'm sorry we had that disagreement, but I really took that personally because I thought, yikes.
Speaker 1:How does this desire for backyard chickens compromise our witness? Does it? Is it just an understandable? Well, all the other neighbors around us were fine with it. And sadly, this couple made a big not morally or etiquettely appropriate, if etiquettely is a word, at the council meeting.
Speaker 1:Hand gestures towards mayor Demings and it was ugly. But my point there is, sadly, they ended up divorcing and moving up moving out and that was not because of the chicken situation, but I think there was a lot of brokenness and frustration in that home to begin with. So here's this you know, we've never pursued the Orange County Commission and and done such a thing. It's funny actually after Jody did this, two different people reached out and said, hey, could you lead a campaign? We need a new library branch or we want this.
Speaker 1:She declined. But I mean, it it was it I was really sad for that engagement or the encounter with my neighbor.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I I had to think through is this just, is this righteous, am I being too ugly, am I pursuing the right paths for resolution here? And it wasn't always clear. It wasn't always a straight line. It's easier, of course, to look at it in in hindsight. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But yeah.
Speaker 2:Love it. Love that love the chickens. Love the little love you guys making moves for the chickens.
Speaker 1:Well, and many folks know I am not a chicken fan.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:But I am a fan of my wife, and she loves the chickens.
Speaker 2:Loves the chickens.
Speaker 1:And we do get amazing fresh eggs every day.
Speaker 2:I mean, I might need some of those at some point.
Speaker 1:Hey. You know what? I thought I need to thank you for being an outstanding hostess, so I'll bring you some eggs.
Speaker 2:Love it. Love it. I buy the expensive ones at Public. So
Speaker 1:Well, now you get I guess they're technically organic. I don't know what the definition that is, but I can get chickens.
Speaker 2:Another question. So was there a season when you wondered if presence was the wrong call when maybe withdrawal looked more honest than staying?
Speaker 1:Well, in that one, that situation, certainly. Certainly. But so that also similar to a situation that's going on right now, I'm on a committee for our denomination that has some proposals that are are proving quite controversial. And actually when this drops, a lot of that might be resolved. In both of these situations, chickens denomination.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I I I question. And on the denominational issue, as our committee has labored for two years and lots of hours and lots of writing and deciding. Yeah. When I see the pushback in the other opinions, I think, oh my, did we discern the mind of Christ correctly?
Speaker 1:Did we are we reading scripture faithfully? And I don't know if I trust the general assembly's decision to be the mind of Christ, which is the phrase we use particularly in reformed churches. And our recommendations don't pass. Can I still accept that as the mind of Christ? I hope so.
Speaker 1:I should. Yeah. But we won't be leaving the denomination over it as some have threatened to do. So it's not always easy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Take some discernment, some wisdom, all that good stuff.
Speaker 1:But in and through it all, both situations, by golly, be kind, be loving Yeah. Be above board because being tacky and rude is kind of the norm sadly today as be as be as set by so many politicians and other famous people. And so I really appreciate there's been a lot of, as you could imagine, Facebook conversation about this denomination issue in these private chat rooms for pastors. And I don't say this to brag, but again and again, I have been affirmed on that those pages publicly and in private messages. You know, your consistent kindness, but yet appropriate pushback is very much noted.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And so we had a small issue, not a big one with with other neighbors, different ones. Like, I bet the people on the street just think we're horrible. And after it resolved, the individual said, you know, I didn't expect you because they're not a big fan of evangelicals. I did not expect you to handle it this way. And that's really taught me something.
Speaker 1:So I would encourage folks to be mindful of your attitude and your heart in that. Believe me, there's times I wanna pop back and I almost posted something online the other day that would have completely undermined the reputation of the person that put something out there. It wasn't wrong but it's true. And I typed it all out and almost hit send, thought, wait a This is a distraction. This is personal and rude.
Speaker 1:Don't don't do it. And so I didn't.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:But look, I mean And honestly, I've only gotten here after many years of being very inappropriate on Facebook or putting something out there that's just a little too snarky and a little too I've got a unfortunate gift with words that can be used for evil.
Speaker 2:I'm missing so much on Facebook.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness. It's such a waste.
Speaker 2:A lot of Christians right now describe the public square as actively hostile to faith. And some of that's overstated, some of it's real. Yeah. How do you read the moment we're actually in? How do you how does that feel to you?
Speaker 1:Well, I think the stage and the environment matters. On a local level, I find particularly city of Orlando leaders very welcoming and grateful for church participation. Mhmm. And very glad to have pastors, leaders of faith at the tables in the conversations that matter. Not that all of those same officials or leaders are Christians themselves, but not a hostility.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:Now we do see hostility in other places in our country. Hollywood, certain folks of political persuasions and different politicians on that level. I I feel like the with the Trump administration, the pendulum has swung back a little bit and I don't mean to praise Trump or their administration in in all ways. I am grateful that some Supreme Court decisions and even legislation has made room or room again for Christians, not necessarily trying to create theocracy or cross the line, but things that represent our values. So it's gonna only continue, however, I think to get harsher and harsher culturally for Christians to have a place in the space.
Speaker 1:And the I do see more and more examples where we have crossed the line between Christians being allowed in the room versus seen as hostile actors or seen as a threat. Certainly during the COVID woke journey, you saw much more of the people of faith are dangerous as opposed to just keep them at arm's length in a neutral role or keep them you know, go home and do your own religion thing. That's different than, okay, you are a threat and dangerous and that worries me. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:We've got to be out there in the public's grill and that's why I push for this and win some faithful presence sort of ways so that it doesn't turn to that that extreme.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So there's kind of a temptation right now in this moment to take a posture of grievance. The world's against us, institutions have turned, the only honest response is to fight back. What are your thoughts on that? How do you how do you respond to that?
Speaker 1:Well, even like you said, fight back. What does fighting mean or look like? And I I am I try to swing the pendulum away from what I experienced in the nineties growing up where the Christian coalition and moral majority mobilized politically and I do think there's a place and a space for that. But a lot of times their spokespersons were not gentle and wise and even killed in their forward movement. And so the stereotypes only grew and grew in movies, cultural representations in the media, etcetera.
Speaker 1:Now there's only so much control you can have over that. But I hope for more voices like a Tim Keller who are ones that led with grace and love, but absolutely did not compromise on on truth. So I think that comes down to all of us Mhmm. When we're at work, we're at school, etcetera.
Speaker 2:On the other side of that, there's kind of a temptation to make our faith more palatable and soften it down to something Yeah. No one would have any objections with. And how do you how do you, like, how do you respond to that? How do you feel about that?
Speaker 1:Well, that's where the concept of faithful presence, which James Davidson Hunter at University of Virginia articulates, comes from. That's where this idea is so important that faithful part is truth and clarity of truth, but then the present part is I'm not gonna shrink back and we are going to represent who and what we are and let the chips fall where they may. I do believe that faithful presence that works through appropriate mechanisms for change, for instance, the legislation system or internal corporate changes is important to do. You wanna exercise power appropriately, but don't be afraid to exercise it. Just like I guess in the chicken situation, we exercised it appropriately and there have to be communal ways of deciding what to do with chickens and other issues.
Speaker 1:And yet knowing it's still very much upsetting my neighbor. So faithful presence, believe is a concept that is so very helpful. And it it doesn't go to the two extremes of either compromising on truth in order to be accepted or made palatable to others or compromising on showing up. Reformed theology is very much about being salt and light out in the culture as opposed to some Christian traditions like the Amish where you completely remove yourself and go set up an alternate utopia or society. So we lean in and we show up.
Speaker 1:I also in that same regard, as opposed to in the nineties where it was such a critique kind of environment and a criticism type environment, I like the Andy Crouch encouragement, go create. Create new. So that's why particularly at The Collaborative, I mean, we invest in the arts and lift up creators and writers and those who are creating to fill the gap and even draw others into the conversations that are gospel oriented. I mean, you certainly, I think, do that in your own work in the finance industry. Create a beautiful way of doing it rather than hiding or sitting back and critiquing others.
Speaker 2:Try to. Yeah. Try to.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Have you I mean, have you seen that creation side of things unfold in your life?
Speaker 2:Do you mean, like, through creating a space for that kind of conversation?
Speaker 1:Could be a space. It could be the way you do your work. It could be in the arts, just not Yeah. Yeah. Sitting around and being grumpy, but saying, look, we're gonna do beautiful things as Christians.
Speaker 2:The idea of touching grass, getting outside, going living your life a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yes, in my work for sure.
Speaker 2:I think the bigger place in your community, I mean, where you're living, your neighbors, like, I know all of my neighbors, which is great, and have a great day. We all this past week actually, on Friday night, watched the magic game together. Yeah. Can That's huge. Outside of creating that community, creating something.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Creating fruitful places for conversations for, you know, being a faithful presence, that kind of thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:For sure. I wanna challenge listeners and viewers even though this is your podcast. Do you really know your neighbors? Do you know their names? Do you know their kids or their jobs, their situation?
Speaker 1:And look, it doesn't mean you have to be buddy buddy with everybody, but that tendency in our society to just pull back in our comfortable air conditioned Netflix homes. Yeah. It doesn't give opportunity for gospel conversation. Yeah. Living life together and solving the little stuff like chickens before it gets to the county commission.
Speaker 2:That's fair.
Speaker 1:And I'm sad to say, these folks, we did not have a relationship with them. We had moved in and met them on move in day, and that's it. And some of that's on us. Like, did we go over and say, hey. Let's hang out on the porch or let's have dinner together.
Speaker 1:But now we have certainly done that and others have been very receptive. We love our neighbors even when we've had hiccups, but we didn't know these folks. Yeah. And that made it harder.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that's not to say I know all my neighbors, but I do know a lot of them Mhmm. Which is really fun. So, yeah, I would I would say, yeah, creating is a great encouragement,
Speaker 1:great word of encouragement. Is there a block party in on your street? And if not, do you need to be the ones to make it happen?
Speaker 2:There is one on ours. We do one every Halloween and New Year's Eve. It's really fun.
Speaker 1:Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, our so we're on a cul de sac with 24 houses, 12 on one side, 12 on the other. And our house prior to us living there was we're right in the middle and our driveway and the next driveway are close to one another.
Speaker 1:So you have a big open area that's great for putting out tables and food. And twice, we've continued the tradition of a neighborhood potluck. But we've gotten lazy and we haven't done it in a number of years and we need to. We need to. We've had a little excitement going on in our family last year, but I want to do that just to keep everybody connecting.
Speaker 1:And and so this is strange, Katie. And now I know this is unique to me being a pastor, but this is not solely because I'm a pastor, but I've kinda turned into the chaplain of the street. Oh. So even folks that I've only met once or twice, they'll reach out when there's a hospital visit that need or or or medical issue that's going on. And, you know, I didn't ask for it, but I'm glad to show up in that way.
Speaker 1:When there's an ambulance that shows up on our street, which is not infrequent, I'll walk down just to check on things as best I can. So anybody can do that. Any Christian can become that one who shows I really care even if we're not living life day in and day out together. So when during COVID, we hosted an not was it Easter? Yeah.
Speaker 1:We hosted Easter in our front yard because the church was closed and we had done Easter online and recorded it beforehand. So we weren't occupied literally on Sunday morning. So we did a thing in the front yard and people poured out. I was surprised at how many people poured out. It was fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I love that. So shifting just a little bit in our conversation. What about people you can't reach? So the neighbor who's not willing to have a conversation with you, or the colleague who's made up their mind about who you are, or maybe a family member who's kind of written you off or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Is faithful presence still the answer, or is there something else you should think about in those situations?
Speaker 1:This is where discernment comes in. I've gotten much bigger in my the last ten years of my ministry on wisdom, wisdom, wisdom, discernment. Don't just be filled with all the right answers, but you gotta exercise such things. So I try to be sensitive to the degree to which somebody is willing to go there in conversation or and to have gospel centered conversations. And one technique I find is helpful is to shift the conversation away from the magic, which is a wonderful way to start, but into the bigger questions of life.
Speaker 1:Like what do you hope to accomplish in life and what are your dreams? I've got one neighbor and they are a delightful young couple with two little boys and another child on the way. And they've been attending worship with us over now through our relationship. But we got to know each other pretty well and I you I put my Christmas gifts in their garage so the kids don't find them. So so the Santa Claus gifts.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Very well.
Speaker 1:And he was helping me assemble a go kart one time. And I said, you know, like, what do you hope for your boys in life? And it was kind of the the more serious kind of question. It was taking it was moving in a different direction. And he sort of kinda chuckled and said, I don't know, just for them to be happy.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh, and there was a bit of silence. And then he said, but you know, I really do want for them and I don't remember frankly what it was. But I opened up the space for an intimate vulnerable expression and conversation and he took it. And we've since just been able to drive ever more deeply. He's in my small group.
Speaker 1:I love Steven. He's the best.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Now, other people though, they don't wanna go there. And so do I have the discernment and the wisdom not to be a pain and push, but to be patient as you said? And to know, I don't save people. They're not the salvation in their life, should it come, is not on my timetable to force and make happen.
Speaker 1:God does the saving and he will in his good time should he so desire. But am I being sensitive and and it's not, Is it truly loving to force these things? People shut down. Yeah. So I also think it's it's part of growing old maybe you realize there are just some people that will never like you.
Speaker 1:And that's okay. That's okay.
Speaker 2:The older you get, the easier that is to accept.
Speaker 1:Well and I've learned in the church, yes, there are some people that don't just think Kay Thorp is the best pastor in the world. And thankfully, we're in a big enough church where it's not an issue. I've got a lot of peers in smaller context where it really is a common con moment for conflict, but that's okay. Yeah. Brush as Jesus said, brush off your feet and go to where you find the people of peace that are receptive.
Speaker 1:But amidst it all, people are watching. And so Yeah. Be kind, be patient, be loving because one little hiccup is enough for them to go, mhmm. I knew it.
Speaker 2:So, Case, you believe that institutions matter.
Speaker 1:Huge. Huge. Love and
Speaker 2:have built the collaborative. You are at First Presbyterian Church, you work with the East PC denomination. Why are those so important right now? And, like, why do you think we've lost confidence? A lot people have lost confidence in institutions.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Well, first off, I think they're important because they extend beyond one's term of 10 one's tenure, one's term of service. They extend beyond the generations. And the Lord when the Lord brings me home, I will have a slew of sermons, hopefully some books and a lot of podcast out there. Hopefully, I will have more importantly fruit in people's lives, their growth in Christ. But yet it it comes to an end and that's been great and that's okay.
Speaker 1:But First Presbyterian Church is going to as it has because We just celebrated our hundred and fiftieth. Right? And institutions get passed on to future leaders to steward those institutions. And so that stability brings stability to society. Even when a leader comes and goes in the American context, it's the institutions that will continue to bring that stability.
Speaker 1:So I'm a strong believer in them. I don't think we it it I've been on a learning curve, especially when I first began to think through this. And you've done Gotham with me and we talk about this a lot. But not really appreciating, wow, An institution is a structure of human relationships that has vision, purpose, product, it either produces whether that's in education or the marketplace. So now why the breakdown?
Speaker 1:Why the suspicion? Well, I think for a couple reasons. One, we've we've had a lot of screw ups and a lot of individuals that abuse those institutions, take advantage of them for their own gain, twist those institutions to manipulate and exploit other people for sure. Now that's always been the case throughout human time history because we're fallen people, we're broken. Maybe the argument could be made that today we actually because of more accountability, we have more healthy and good institutions than the ones back in the Roman Empire which might have been more in the dark and more free to be corrupt.
Speaker 1:So I also think people have pulled back today because there's more wealth in society. Mhmm. We have wealth breeds privacy and pulling back. So we have homes with air conditioning and and Netflix. You can serve yourself and be less bidden to the institutions that support and make for a full life.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Western society promotes radical individualism as opposed to the communal nature of Asian societies. So that it's being played out on a grand scale right now.
Speaker 2:You've watched a lot of institutions fail. You've watched them calcify. And so what's the difference between an institution that's worth building and investing in and then one that maybe should be allowed to kind of go its own way, maybe wither a little bit.
Speaker 1:So some institutions have run their course. I was listening to a podcast with Newt Gingrich and rather wherever you may fall on the political spectrum, he has a great podcast. Some of it's about politics, but a lot of it are just these amazing culture makers and experts and just all sorts of great topics. Anyway, he talked about how the ice industry in the early nineteen hundreds was enormous. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars of capital and jobs it provided and that three times a day, ice was delivered to every congressman's office.
Speaker 1:And the way in which the whole network and structure allowed for that thing to happen. And that then there came refrigeration Mhmm. And freezers. And the overlap was about twenty years where congressmen had refrigerators in their office and yet that bucket of ice showed up three times a day. Right?
Speaker 1:So I think some institutions when they've lost their purpose and their call, yeah, it's okay to shut them down. Someone once said that it's not bad to close a ministry, it's bad to close it without celebration and acknowledgment of its fruit. And that I think is why people get upset when decisions are made and decisions ministries are closed and there's no liturgy, no moment to pause, celebrate, then the thing applies to institutions. I got to be a part of the founding of iDignity. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:You're familiar with iDignity? Yeah. It's a for those not in Orlando, it's a great ministry nonprofit that helps the poor and the vulnerable get the identification needed to succeed in society. So birth certificates, state ID, Social Security cards, these things are essential to get a bank account, an apartment, and all that. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And I was there in the earliest of days. I have stayed connected over the years, but I'm not on the board anymore and I don't actively engage in its building. But I show up for big events and they're building a new building. They're constructing a new building just south of the church. And I can't tell you how amazing it is to have been a part of it in the early days and to see where it is today.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. And to also recognize our founding director, Michael Dippy is still leading, but one day he will retire or get hit by a bus. And there is enough now history and product fruitfulness. I mean, tens of thousands of people have gotten their IDs that it will continue. And donors will continue because the mission and the purpose are big enough and important enough and others have been brought in that get it and wanna see it still happen.
Speaker 1:So we can't be afraid though to shut things down when needed. Good leaders know that and we'll do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think even if you're not the leader making that decision, if you're a cheerleader, if you're on the periphery, be okay and give space for those leaders to do what's necessary.
Speaker 2:So, as we start to wind down a little bit, I wanna talk about kind of encouraging people who may be tired that they believe that this is all important, but are a little bit worn out and exhausted by it. And I think that's different for everyone. Some people have a personality for this, more so like Caves. Some of us are probably somewhere in the middle like me where I get tired by it. Sometimes I'm energized, other times it depends on the day.
Speaker 2:What do you what word of advice? What would you say to them that's honest and not your church answer? What's your real word of encouragement?
Speaker 1:Because my church answer is not honest. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2:No. I mean, don't wanna give them the pat answer. Wanna give them I wanna give real encouragement.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, God gives us Sabbath for a reason.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's okay to check out, to disengage. I'm a news junkie and yet sometimes I just need to turn it off. Mhmm. And it might be a week of I'm gonna not engage in any headlines. So not to feel bad about that, but we cannot lose hope Yeah.
Speaker 1:And all things that Christ will redeem and cause us to be a part of that. And I don't just mean lose hope in his return or the ultimate renewal of all creation in our own souls. I mean, don't lose hope that the institutions you're a part of can be better.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I am a very strong advocate for school choice and we are watching the public schools around us go through some very difficult reorientation. As now with funding shifts, the or Orange County school system is laying off hundreds of people and they've shut down, think, 10 to fifteen, twenty schools because for the first time, there are more students in alternative learning environments than than public schools. I'm not an anti public school person, I know there's a place for such institutions. But I also know there has to be some hard reform and and seasons of struggle here. And so I I can't lose hope that these places will be so led and encouraged, yes, by good people, but especially for the Christ follower.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Especially for the one who Jesus calls to be a part of reinstitutional renewal. Yeah. I hope that wasn't the pastor answer.
Speaker 2:No. It's not. I'm gonna do something that's a little practical too because I thought about this actually a decent amount.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think when you get overwhelmed, at least for me, it's helpful to think small. So think of my neighbors and think of the small things that I can do. Yeah. Because usually when I get overwhelmed, it's related to something that feels too big.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:National headlines, all that stuff always feel really big and I don't know what to do to make it better. So I've tried to remind myself to go small and get those immediately around me, whether that's your family, your neighbor, your friends.
Speaker 1:Focus on the micro and let go of the macro.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:A lot of I can't solve homelessness, but there's a homeless guy that might need some help.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. The people you see in your day to day life. So yeah. Anyways, that's my oh, that's always my, like, okay.
Speaker 2:Do do a little thing. Just do a little thing and you'll Yeah. You'll start to move out of the
Speaker 1:Well, I can't get people on different political sides to get along, but I can go reach out to someone I know that doesn't stand where I stand and give them a banana cream pie.
Speaker 2:You and I are gonna have to have a conversation, yes, about school choice too. Because as a problem product of the public schools, I may fall on the other side, but I wanna wanna hear your side of this.
Speaker 1:I went to public middle in high school, and my children have gone through Boone, which is a great public high school. Yeah. So, yeah, I'd love talking about
Speaker 2:We'll have we'll have a conversation offline about that.
Speaker 1:Or no. Let's do a whole episode on that.
Speaker 2:Okay. I'm gonna have to do some prep work because I know
Speaker 1:you're way up here.
Speaker 2:I don't have kids, but I would love to talk about that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I am friends with two different members of the current Orange County School Board. And then I've interviewed before Kevin Clark, who is the leader of the ecclesial school and of course, a big advocate for school choice. Anyway, there's a lot of voices out there and maybe that would be fun to get us all on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'd love to hear more about because I think I always think of the common good. There are people who with these choices sometimes are being affected who can't make choices for themselves. That's another story for another day. Sure.
Speaker 2:We'll have that conversation. So, you have been at First Pres for twenty one years, and you have stayed for twenty one years. What has staying taught you that leaving could not teach you?
Speaker 1:The generational handover. Mhmm. Because when I got here, we still had greatest generation folks in critical mass as well as in leadership. Well, that generation pretty much has transitioned to glory and now the boomers are the retired set. And here, you know, I'm a Gen Xer and we we now are in more millennials running things.
Speaker 1:So I look back over all the funerals I've done and all the spiritual redwoods of our church that have passed and it's a different place. Yeah. First Pres and it's still not like those values carry over generation to generation and we've still got the same buildings from them, but it's a different makeup of people. So what is that? I mean, I wouldn't have experienced that or known that.
Speaker 1:I guess what it's taught me as I age that you do get to a phase of recognizing or giving room for the new leaders to come and take over and not to be that burdensome, well, we used to do it this way and you have to do it that way. But also on the other side of that coin to step in when necessary and remind of greater purpose and values even though we may shift methodology. Yeah. I've seen the I I can tell you a person who is in their seventies, eighties, nineties who does that really well and is very mature as opposed to hearkening back to glory days. Buzz Ossley.
Speaker 2:I was that's the exact person I thought of when I was gonna say his name. I love Buzz Ossley. He's amazing.
Speaker 1:He's on our session and Yeah. Buzz is mid to late eighties. Yeah. And he when he speaks, we listen. But he also is so generous Yeah.
Speaker 1:Knowing that church today looks very different than when he was raising kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah. He's so inclusive with the young much younger generations too. Like, he's just always got such a great word of wisdom and seeks me out. Yeah. He's just wonderful.
Speaker 2:I love him. He's a great guy.
Speaker 1:I agree. So as I've watched people do that over twenty one years, it makes me realize, okay. I'm 49 and I'll be in their spots at some point. But even now, how can I help observe and and encourage that ownership?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So last question I wanna ask you. What scares you about this work and what gives you, like, pause and makes you stop and think a little bit?
Speaker 1:Not enough Christians or church leaders taking seriously evangelism, our place in culture, our desire to create it and lean into it, it's real easy and way more comfortable to turn inward and create our little kingdoms.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so and that's why I hope this work continues to touch and encourage people, especially as society gets perhaps harsher and more hostile to Christians. Usually, periods of persecution lead the church to grow which is encouraging. But in the interim, however, the hostility may go quickly or slowly, we we cannot give up on being out there and seeing our witness unfold even at our workplaces Mhmm. And our soccer leagues. And it doesn't have to be leading Disney or being a city council member, but we've got to continue to represent Jesus there.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. I agree. Yeah. Be in the world, not of it.
Speaker 1:But be in it.
Speaker 2:You gotta really be in it. You gotta be in the world to be in it. Have to be really intentional. Yeah. Case, thank you.
Speaker 2:This was really great. And for anyone listening, part this if part one of this conversation was about why this one was about the how and at what cost, and they both belong together. We will keep links to Case's writing and the work of the collaborative Oh, well,
Speaker 1:you. It's very generous of you.
Speaker 2:If part of this conversation named something you've been carrying, we'd love to hear from you. Drop your email with us at wecolabor, that's w e c o l a b o r dot com.
Speaker 1:You know the word labor is in collaborative. Collaborative. Collaborative. And that I just most people don't see that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then we'll send you Zeitgeist, our journal on faith, work, and culture. And I'm gonna do something that you would, I think, appreciate, Case. Make a If you're in Orlando and interested in the Gotham Fellowship, as someone who's graduated from it Mhmm. This is the kind of stuff we talk about.
Speaker 1:So you
Speaker 2:could consider it.
Speaker 1:You should consider it. Well, if you wanna meet one of our Orlando fellows or our arts arts fellowship folks, lots going on.
Speaker 2:Lots going on.
Speaker 1:It's true.
Speaker 2:My thanks again to Pratt Family Fund for supporting today's episode. And I'm Katie Schuch, along with Case Thorp.
Speaker 1:Yay, Katie Schuch.
Speaker 2:God's blessings on you.