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Build a Business Worth Buying brings you candid conversations with industry leaders, M&A experts, and successful founders. Learn advanced strategies to scale, optimize, and prepare your business for an acquisition—because building a business worth buying starts with smart decisions today.
Aaron Alpeter (00:01.932)
Well, thank you guys so much for being on. How are you doing today?
Jamil Bhuya (00:05.638)
We're doing fantastic. The sun is out. It's not freezing freezing, you know, how's it in Montreal?
Aaron Alpeter (00:13.746)
It is freezing freezing, but that's about to be what I expected. So Jamil and Jaz, they live in Canada as well. Toronto, right?
Jamil Bhuya (00:15.054)
Yeah.
Jamil Bhuya (00:20.588)
Yes. Yeah, Toronto, but we're from Ottawa. So we're used to like the colder, colder winters. So Toronto is very chill comparatively. So we're happy. Yeah.
Aaron Alpeter (00:30.146)
Okay. Well, I'm going from North Carolina to Montreal, so there's a little bit of a difference, but yeah, it's all good. Thank you guys so much for being on. think that I want to dive right in because you guys have both built things that people love, but they're in completely different worlds, right? So you've got restaurants and you've got e-commerce software. And I would like to hear from you, when you compare the experiences that you've had, what feels surprisingly similar about building something that really connects with consumers?
Jamil Bhuya (00:36.491)
Yes.
Jamil Bhuya (01:01.248)
Yeah, I mean, I think at the end of the day, whether you're building software, we actually also had a CPG skincare brand that was retailing in anthropology. So we, and urban outfitters, so we learned a lot there. think at the end of the day, whether you're building software, whether you're building food, whether you're building skincare, you're building for people. And I think that sometimes gets lost quite a bit in under like KPIs, dashboards, analytics, financial statements. It's like, you're still building with like.
some emotional outcome for the other person. So if it's a business service, that emotional outcome might be convenience. It might be knowledge. It might be, you know, leverage. We don't know, right? And same thing with like a consumer product. You might be selling happiness. You might be selling comfort. So I think that's like the thing that ironically, it makes us all human, but it also what makes
people like connect to your service or your product. And also like I, I started in the product design world, which is very like, you know, the whole product thinking angle and just really thinking about human psychology and human behavior. I think that that translates across everything. so like when it comes to the restaurant, right? Like you still have to think about how people behave and like human psychology and what drives them. And that's, that's really,
integral to building a product, but then also building a brand or building like a product brand. And then now with the agency, like all of these things translated, it's just like, why do people behave the way that they do?
Aaron Alpeter (02:41.366)
So Jaz, when you go back to Shopify and you're thinking about connecting with people on a psychological level, is that something that you started with or did you start with the product first and then you learned that part later on?
Jamil Bhuya (02:43.692)
Come
Jamil Bhuya (02:47.565)
Mm-hmm.
Jamil Bhuya (02:53.718)
I mean, so at Shopify specifically, just with product design, there's so much research that goes on. They're like, projects are very, very long. So you're really focused on super detailed pieces of something. So yeah, there's a lot of like UX research, customer surveys, all that stuff before you even start designing. So there's like months and months of that before you even start to open, you know, your design tool and start working. So.
Yeah, there's a lot that informs everything. It's not, but then also after you ship something, the philosophy at Shopify very early on was kind of like basically like ship, ship first, ask later. Like we want to kind of get something out there and then also see what real people who are using the tool also how they react and then iterate off of that. So yeah, there's kind of this balance of enough research before. So you're very clear on what you're building and why you're building it, but then also
not being so married to it so that when you launch it, you're still going to iterate and not, you know, be upset that it didn't work exactly how you thought. So there's like two sides of it.
Aaron Alpeter (04:03.074)
That makes a lot of sense. Jamil, let's kind go back to your earliest days at BFF. What did you learn about that experience that you think most founders miss?
Jamil Bhuya (04:15.982)
think the biggest thing I learned is how to actually prepare for I don't want to say an exit because at the time I never thought I was going to exit or maybe it was I think my head was like too high up in the clouds if that makes sense it was I was so optimistic to the point where maybe a little bit more nihilism and pessimism would have made me really review my shareholders agreement more would have made me listen to my lawyer a little bit more
would have made me a little bit more conscious on personally guaranteeing my life away to the bank. So a lot of things where I think it's very hard to like know what these things are until ironically you've either felt the pain of that mistake and
I think it's the boring stuff in a business. How to set up a corporation. What does your shareholders agreement look like if you have shareholders? What are the bylaws and resolutions in your corporation? What happens if you can't repay your loans? What is your cash flow looking like? Have you projected properly how much cash you're going to actually need? you know, because even those things like running out of those type of resources can cause a lot of emotional burden and stress.
that can actually make you a very shitty business owner and make very short-term decisions that are just trying to survive as opposed to long-term decisions and trying to grow because you're under-resourced and under-prepared.
Aaron Alpeter (05:47.555)
What was it that you think led to, I don't know what you call it, the founder's fog or the amnesia or just the blatant optimism that you had, that you said you had when you were starting it, that maybe you've had to unlearn or maybe you approached differently with other half?
Jamil Bhuya (06:04.238)
It's kind of like what Jensen Huang says that when, he built NVIDIA, it's like, you just gotta get, like, go through a lot of pain and like heartache and almost get like punched in the face a bunch of times for the lesson to stick, not to sound nihilistic, maybe this is like the brown in me coming out, like, I don't believe you learn something until it truly hurts. And even some of my mentors would tell me early on, like, hey, I'm gonna tell you something.
but you're probably not going to listen to me until, you know, it hurts you or something happens. also, I feel like you kind of need that blind optimism when you start something like Jamil was so young when he started the restaurant and you kind of, if you knew all of those things and the hurt and the, the difficulties that were going to come, probably wouldn't have started, you wouldn't have done it. So you kind of need to, know, everyone who starts a business, like the first person, the first time they do it.
it's new to them. And I think if it wasn't new to everyone, no one would do it. So you kind of have to like trial by fire and then you'll learn for the next and the next, you know, as you go.
Aaron Alpeter (07:15.488)
Yeah, there's a reason why serial founders are a sought after commodity, right? Everybody wants to know, okay, what lessons have you learned that you're gonna do differently for? And I'm curious, are there any things that come to mind that your mentors told you that the time you said, this is nice, but I'll put that in the pile of things to worry about later, that now looking back, yeah, that was really wise.
Jamil Bhuya (07:38.574)
I think one of them was, you know, and again, this is not perfect advice, but at the time it did burn me. It's like, don't hire friends and family, especially early on. And typically every time I hired someone that I knew really close, it was really hard to like, keep that personal relationship professional. And eventually it just creates expectations and all these things that neither side can fulfill. So it almost always ends up in like a messy breakup.
Aaron Alpeter (07:58.07)
Mm-hmm.
Jamil Bhuya (08:07.906)
That was one. And then I think the other one was a lot of like legal advice, shareholders advice. And I think sometimes people are so eager to get a deal over the line that you're scared to say no to certain things in order to keep the deal moving. But the things you say yes to can have really big long-term ramifications, especially if you need to dissolve exit or like get away from the situation.
Aaron Alpeter (08:35.33)
Makes a lot of sense. I am reminded of a quote from Flagler, one of the co-founders of Standard Oil, so Johnnie Rockefeller's partner. And he talked about how they became really good friends. But they said that a friendship built on business is better than a business built on friendship. And I was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense because I think you're right. It can be very difficult. I these are obviously people that you trust. You want to work with them. But I always look at this and say, OK, if I hire someone and I have to fire them,
can we still hang out? Like how do you, how do you do this? And it's, it's difficult, right? It's, it's really hard.
Jamil Bhuya (09:04.76)
Yeah.
Jamil Bhuya (09:08.846)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, think that's probably the biggest difference is I find that it's worked because obviously we're now in business together, right? But because we're both at the founder level and we're doing very different things, I think it works in that case. It can work in certain circumstances. But yeah, I think when the dynamic is like you're the boss and then your friend is technically under you or family is under you, I think that's where the...
The issues can kind of come up, but if obviously there's so many people who start businesses with their friends or their family and it sometimes it doesn't work and sometimes it really, really works well. But I think the power dynamic has to be established before. Yeah. I'll say one more quick thing on the subject. So even when Jaz and I started the skincare brand, Yellow Beauty, we didn't have to establish roles. And it's not like we didn't trust each other, but we're always kind of like in each other's shit.
And because of that, was like, I would try to moonlight as a designer and like, knew the brand so well, but like, really I didn't. Maybe it was even a bit mansplaining at the time, but like, it was, it just caused like a lot of friction for no reason. And now it's almost like we operate in two different silos and like, if I legitimately need her vice versa, we'll chat with each other. But other than that, it's kind of like, you do your thing, I'll do my thing. And then when we're done doing our things, we can just.
hang out, have dinner, and chat about other things.
Aaron Alpeter (10:37.884)
That's a really interesting, I think that's instructive because what you're saying is that you've kind of, you've kind of created two halves and you each have your own half, your own dominion. And you know, it's like, we were all working toward this common goal, but you've got your sandbox. I've got mine and, stay out for lack of better term. I love that. Jaz, you helped create the very first Shopify UI.
Jamil Bhuya (10:46.851)
Mm-hmm.
Jamil Bhuya (10:54.478)
Yeah, there you go.
Aaron Alpeter (11:04.994)
which I think like looking back, I don't know if anybody recognized that your design, your UI was going to be as widely seen as it was. I mean, this impacted millions and millions of entrepreneurs as well as consumers. What is it like designing something that had to scale far beyond its original scope?
Jamil Bhuya (11:18.69)
Yeah.
Jamil Bhuya (11:24.078)
Yeah, so I worked on the first iteration of Shopify Home, which is actually still pretty much the same as when I left. Like they've obviously done a lot of things to it, but it's like the concept is still similar. I mean, yeah, I was at Shopify fairly early on, like 2013 to 2015. So we knew it was already really big, but we didn't know how big it was going to be. So yeah, but again, like thinking for the long term.
Every project, like I said, was very in-depth. We'd focus on very minuscule things and focus on user behavior, like I was saying, and just what the long-term goals were. But also there was this huge culture of, we don't know where this is gonna go and we have to be okay to build something and then break it down and then build it and break it down. there wasn't much rigidness in like, my God, we need to prepare this for the next.
10 years, it was more like, what do people need now? And knowing that this is something that's going to keep iterating and changing over time. So yeah, there wasn't really that pressure of, this needs to stand the test of time. It was more like, what can we do now that's different than everyone else is doing? And how can we make sure that it's just like the best for the merchants, like the best experience for them with what they need right now?
Aaron Alpeter (12:48.962)
That makes a lot of sense. Was it such that when you guys were making that design that you were approaching, it's like this just has to be good enough for two years, and knowing that you could potentially scrap the whole thing, and then you got to a point where you just renewed it and said, all right, well, what's good here? Actually, a lot of it's good, so let's kind of renew it for another two years. Or was there a thought that, hey, once we get this going, it's gonna be kind of like Excel, and anytime somebody updates Excel, you know, the ribbon or whatever, people just freak out, like, where is everything? So I guess, how did you guys approach that?
Jamil Bhuya (13:15.233)
Right.
Yeah, I mean, think it was more of, again, like knowing that this like this specific industry, especially at the time, it was changing so quickly. So I think, yeah, it was more of making making also the merchants used to things changing a lot, right? Like we would we would change things based on user feedback and like it would just constantly be an iteration. So it wasn't we didn't want things to be a shock when things were updated because we did update things a lot. And sometimes we would start projects and
you know, almost ship them and then be like, wait, this isn't the right thing to do right now. Let's, we need to completely scrap it and go back to the drawing board. So yeah, I think the roadmap was like, again, with what I was working on, everyone was working on very different things because by the time that I joined, we were still big enough that every different part of the admin, for example, every different section had an entirely different team.
Right? So we would be like very, fixated on the specific problem that we were building for. So there was like a whole team for the order screen and there was a whole team for Shopify payments specifically. yeah, very like, like very focused thinking across that specific product.
Aaron Alpeter (14:35.714)
That makes a lot of sense. What do you see in the founders that you're working with or folks that are looking to build something that's gonna scale at one point where you can see that sort of mentality coming out in what they're doing? Or is that something where you can be the one giving advice that they may not be listening to and saying, hey, I know you may not listen to me right now, but this is something you're gonna run into.
Jamil Bhuya (14:57.1)
Yeah, mean, honestly, I think if you try and build too far in the future, you're going to just be paralyzed because it's like, like I said, things are changing so quickly, like now with AI and all of this stuff, like you can't, you can't think too far ahead. You just have to use, you know, make sure that you're using what's available to you now and like make something that's amazing now and be okay with constant change. cause yeah, I see so many founders being like almost paralyzed with being like, well, I need to make this
I need to make this a business that's going to last for 50 years. And then they're just not actually doing anything. They're just kind of overthinking the entire process. yeah, business isn't like that. It's constantly changing every day. There's something that's going to be thrown at you. So being okay with iteration and change is really important. I'll jump in quickly too, because especially for like what we're currently doing and like redesigning and rebuilding Shopify stores, it's
Because it's a digital product and digital asset, things move very quickly and a lot of bigger clients that we've worked with or Jaz has worked with in the past at her other agencies, they are literally, some of them are redoing their store every year and redesigning and trying to keep current or be trendy or just getting a different look at it, whereas opposed to like,
when I had the restaurants, like we can't renovate every year. at best, best case scenario, you're renovating every five years. Worst case every 10 years to keep like current and modern. Whereas like a digital asset is just so much easier to kind of like iterate, refresh. And we have seen quite a few, quite a bit of that.
Aaron Alpeter (16:41.898)
Yeah, that really resonates with me as you guys were talking. I'm reminded of a couple of conversations I had with founders. They'll kind of show you their pitch deck and like, we're going to be a billion dollar company in 10 years. Right. And so like that's that's the goal.
I think that's helpful to show for investors and and you know, it's nice there. But I think the problem that a lot of people run into and I'm kind of hearing this and what you're saying is that it can be nice to have that goal of being a billion dollar company, but you should focus on being a million dollar company before your billion dollar company. Don't go out and build the billion dollar infrastructure, the billion dollar headcount or things like that unless you have five billion dollars to spend. Right. And to test things out. So I think it's all about it's about like swinging for the grand slam each time. It's more about how do you get on base? How do you advance the runner?
Jamil Bhuya (17:20.238)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Alpeter (17:26.436)
or how do you keep going? And so I think that that's a really important thing as it gets to trying to figure those things out.
Jamil Bhuya (17:32.842)
Yeah. I love that analogy too, cause like trying to figure out even where your off-ramps are on the road to a billion. Like, even for my restaurants right now, like last year we were lucky to get acquired. I kept some equity because I knew it was going to be big. And my new partner used to be the CEO of Mary Brown's chicken and he grew it from like a hundred to 400 locations. And I had told my old partner at the time that, Hey, I don't have what it takes to take this thing to the next level. I've realized that now.
You know, like when I started this thing, I thought I could take it to a hundred units. was like, I don't really have what it takes and I don't have the energy to do it anymore. And I think it's like really important. Like you could still become a billion dollar company, but like, I realized I'm more of like a one, like a zero to one or a zero to 10 type of guy. Who am I kidding? Maybe I'm a zero to five at best, you know, but like to take something to a billion, I know I'll never be that guy. So it's like even having strategic off ramps of like.
Maybe when do I take some chips off the table? What does that mean? You know, where do I get to a certain level of dilution where I don't have control anymore? think understanding those things like early on is almost as important as building the product at times sometimes. Yeah. And also just knowing, like you were saying, kind of like what you're you do need that high level goal of what are you growing towards? Because there can also just be this blind growth for the sake of growth and you don't really know.
where you're going. And a lot of the time too, like a lot of growth can look good from the outside. But really when you like tear back everything, you know, yeah, maybe you now have 50 employees, but you're dying. Like your, business is dying, right? Like optically it might look good, but then another business that has 10 employees and they've been very careful about what they're doing and why they're doing it intentionally, they might be killing it and having an amazing profit. So it's like,
The optics too, I think can be enticing for a lot of business owners. It's like, I want to look big. want to like grow fast, hire fast, do all this stuff, but it's like, why, why are you doing it? want to raise and dilute cause it's sexy and I everybody else doing it. So I think that's like, that's what we've been really trying to do with other half now is being really, because we've had other experiences about, you know, with other businesses, we're like, okay, every time there's a certain decision point, even about hiring or.
Jamil Bhuya (19:57.102)
a service that we're going to offer or any of these things. It's like, okay, what does that actually mean long-term? I think those goals are really important to think about long-term. Or just simply why? Like, why are we doing this? It's always going back to like, why did we start this? Because with our other two businesses, we didn't know why. Yeah. You know, we really didn't know why. And it's a simple, but very complex question. Yeah.
Aaron Alpeter (20:22.656)
Yeah, it's one that my wife asks every now and then and it's an uncomfortable conversation for sure. like, so, let me just write, you're doing this amount of work and you're taking home how much money and you have this much stress and like, what are we doing here, right? So, I think that definitely resonates with me. And, you know, I'm so glad you guys brought up just the idea of profit because I feel like there's a whole generation of founders that grew up in the zero interest rate environment.
Jamil Bhuya (20:33.336)
Yeah.
I'm
Aaron Alpeter (20:51.89)
And the success criteria was I raised a bunch of money or that my revenue was really high or things like that. And the reality is, and people are learning to say, is that profit is the whole point of running a business. know, these things are meant to be machines that make money that you get to take home out of nothing. Like that's the whole point of it. Your profit is your right to continue to exist. And I think that if you're looking at these things and you're just like, you know, if I'm a 50 million
Jamil Bhuya (20:51.906)
Mm-hmm.
Jamil Bhuya (21:05.259)
Yeah.
Jamil Bhuya (21:12.962)
Mm-hmm.
Aaron Alpeter (21:21.814)
dollar company but I've got half a million dollars in profit that's different than if I'm a you know a 10 million dollar company that five million dollars in profit it's a very different lifestyle very different you know stress level and it can be really hard as a founder to say well maybe I shouldn't spend all this money right like I know I've had a problem as I've grown through the years it's just how do I you know avoid burning a hole in my pocket with just profits that are coming off like well how do we put this to work like I don't want it necessarily but what do I what do I do and so I'm just really
really glad you guys brought that up because I think so many people have to relearn that lesson that the whole point of building your company and the whole point of why someone would buy your company is because it can generate profit.
Jamil Bhuya (22:02.582)
Yeah, because you also don't want, mean, a very big reality is a lot of businesses can become this prison, right? Where you've done it to give yourself freedom and then you're now trapped. Like in the case of the restaurant, right? You had so many personally guaranteed loans that like Jamil took on when he was very young. So we didn't have, you know, a car or a house or anything. Like we didn't have any assets or like, okay, well, of course we'll take this loan. And of course these loans follow you for years and years and years. They're not,
easy things to pay off. yeah, just kind of again, like thinking why, why you're doing what you're doing and yeah, just being intentional I think is important. I want to touch on something you said quickly because it's, it's something that I use as almost like a, like a lesson learned or a clap back to a lot of young founders that asked me like, Hey, like what did you do back then? That's different than now. And literally one of the things I say is
Back then, money was cheap. Inflation wasn't a thing. No one knew what inflation was. Money was cheap, it was easy to get capital, the economy was stable, it was good. We lived in a different time when I started not only the restaurants, but when Jaz and I started the skincare company. I think the table stakes have been raised so much more now where it's harder than ever to even like...
get someone to pay attention to your startup. And there's so much noise in the market between AI, vibe coding, all these like terms and trends and, you know, just having access to more media and like just more ideas than ever. Like we're so interconnected through social media and all these things that it can be very distracting, but also very polarizing, like the messages you can be getting. And that can really mess with your head as to what the expectations of your business should be.
Aaron Alpeter (24:00.003)
I definitely agree with that. It reminds me, a couple years ago I was mentoring a startup from Ukraine and all places. And this was before the second invasion, the big one.
And we were just kind of talking and I was learning a little bit more about their ecosystem they were trying to get in the US. So obviously I was teaching them about ours. But they, it's like, well, what's it like there? like, well, it's very difficult to raise money in Ukraine. as a result, you have to be profitable from day one.
And so you get these companies where it's a side project and maybe it's throwing off a couple thousand bucks or whatever. You're just nurturing, you're trying to figure out, you're iterating, you're being very specific about how you spend money and how you hire and all those sorts of things. says it's really hard for these companies to get formed. Once they get formed, they turn into Duolingo, right? They turn into these massive companies that because they were able to figure out and they had good union economics, they were profitable from day one.
Jamil Bhuya (24:51.406)
Bye.
Aaron Alpeter (24:58.858)
that they were able to blast it. Where I think in North America, to your point, Shumil, it was very easy for someone who had a WeWork membership and an idea to raise a million bucks to go figure something out. And if you maybe requiring customers on negative unit economics and you just like, I'll figure it out, let raise more money. It's like, no. I think that as difficult as this environment is right now compared to where it's been, which let's be honest, it's still not that difficult compared to where it could be elsewhere.
Jamil Bhuya (25:08.686)
Yeah.
Jamil Bhuya (25:27.884)
Yep.
Aaron Alpeter (25:28.898)
I think that this is ultimately better for the ecosystem because it's going to push people to maybe not have completely rose colored glasses. But as we talked about, you've got to still be optimistic and think that it's going to work and have the audacity that you're going to be the one to make it happen.
Jamil Bhuya (25:45.71)
Correct. Yeah. It's kind of like the, don't want to say the gravy train has ended because to your point, I think it's just more of a, a balanced market and there's more critical thinking. But, you know, also again, there's, there's so much hype out there, right? Like we saw with Bitcoin, we saw with NFTs, we're seeing it with AI right now. And, it's like, gotta, you gotta feed the beast. That's, that's kind of what I say nowadays. And I think that beast is the hype.
Aaron Alpeter (26:11.626)
Yeah. So let's kind of go into that a little bit more because you guys both worked in relatively unproven places.
right when you're building and other, obviously you haven't built a design studio before, you're doing that for the first time, although you've both been around them. How do you balance kind of those, that rose colored glass conviction that a founder has to have to basically convince themselves that the pain is worth it for however long or however deep it's going to be, while still being grounded and rooted in this idea that hey, there's gotta be a purpose and a point to why we're doing this.
Jamil Bhuya (26:24.459)
Mm-hmm.
Jamil Bhuya (26:45.134)
Yeah, that's a good question. think, yeah, like the purpose for me, having a lot of the past experience, I think I know what kind of life we want to lead. So that's really established, like why we're doing what we're doing and how we want to do it. Specifically with the agency, just, have a lot of specific philosophies on how we want to do things that are different than traditional agencies. But then the blind optimism, or maybe not.
It doesn't feel as blind this time for some reason. I don't know if it's because this is the first time where we are actually taking a solid skill that I've developed and that you've developed, like me on the design side and then Jamil on the sales side. He's just like over the course of all of his businesses and things that he's done. He's become an amazing like networker and salesperson, and then I've become a strong designer. So it's like, we're finally
very secure in those skills. So we have optimism, but it feels more targeted and like tangible than before. Before it was more like, we see all these other restaurants doing well. I think we could do that. Or I see all these DTC brands killing it online, all these like dropshippers. They're just making millions. And it's like, let's try and do that. But we didn't really have any tangible past experience of
Like in those areas, really? Like I was adjacent to that via Shopify, but I wasn't a business owner. had never created a product. Jamil had worked in kitchens, but he never ran a restaurant. there was like, there was a lot of blindness of just being like, we want to do that, but we don't know exactly how. Whereas this time I feel like, and again, we had to go through a lot of pain to get here and a lot of skill building to get here. But now it's kind of feels like, okay.
There's optimism for a reason. So it's not easy, but it just feels easier than the other business.
Aaron Alpeter (28:49.058)
It almost sounds like what you're just saying is that everybody has ideas. Ideas are cheap. You can identify the what, right? You wanna have a profitable skincare brand. You wanna have an empire. So everybody looks at the outcome. But if you don't know the how, maybe that's where it becomes blind optimism versus more mitigated risk.
Jamil Bhuya (29:11.52)
Yeah, like I think we just feel more experienced now. And I think also with the skincare brand in particular and with the restaurant to an extent, didn't, both of us, didn't really go out and ask for help at all, really. Like we were just kind of like, okay, we see other people killing it. That means we can probably kill it too. And like it seems like everyone was doing it just by themselves.
So I think though too, like even if you do have that blind optimism, because obviously everyone starts somewhere, you just have to tap into the community and like be not afraid to embarrass yourself or like that you're just starting out and go talk to people who are doing well. We never really did that because we just thought, well, everyone else did it by themselves. So I guess that's what we have to do. I just had like a funny thought and I don't know why it came to my head, but I was like,
humans are like the only creatures in the world that could decide, okay, you know what? I'm gonna do all these crazy weird things, including commerce, right? You don't see a bird being like, let's start a little stand on the side of the road. hey, I'm gonna become a barista suddenly and open, you know, like a little coffee shop on top of this like electrical pole and pay rent to like my squirrel landlord. I wish they did that though. And I think to answer your question like,
There was a lot of intersections of like past experience pain, but also like economics that we really like, don't get me wrong. This business kinda happened accidentally. Like Jaz had left last year in June, her agency, just kept getting slammed with freelance work. it was just freelancing. So it also happened by accident as well. And I was having so much fun attending e-comm events because I was so damn burnt out from restaurants and I thought it was a very toxic environment. The people there are just very like,
You know, they're, hard workers, but it was to a level and degree where there's just a, it's not the same collaboration that there is in e-comm or in tech even. So it was kind of like, we had so much trauma from other things that we had done that it almost ended up feeling so easy and natural. fun and fun. Like for me, it was just like, Holy shit. I can, I haven't out from the restaurant industry. And it was just like, I haven't had this level of energy in like probably 12 years.
Jamil Bhuya (31:33.922)
You know, and like a good five years where I was just like a corpse. You know, and like I wouldn't go to events. I wouldn't like do the things that felt natural to me because everything was so hard. Whereas now it's like I just focus on what naturally feels good. And to me, it's the schmooze. You know, like I don't go out there trying to sell to people. I go out there just trying to like build relationships, become friends, either like me or you don't. If you can...
manage me for a second or third call. Okay, this guy is, you know, like, hey, he's a cool guy. Like, let's continue chatting. Like it's building those relationships because like we're in the business kind of a trust, right? It's like you have a digital product on a digital service on a, know, people are coming like everything's digital, right? Like e-commerce is very digital until you actually receive the parcel. So it requires a lot of trust and that trust is built IRL so much faster.
than it ever would be over a screen, which really was like in my wheelhouse because of my experience with the restaurant. So everything kind of worked out. Also, like agencies require very little investment overhead. They cash flowing typically from day one. like a lot of those lessons from before I was like, do I want to take a quarter million, half a million dollar debt out to start something new in a new industry? Fuck no. know, so yeah, just kind of made sense.
Aaron Alpeter (33:01.792)
Yeah, and it's funny you mentioned that this happened accidentally. One of the things I'll kind of joke around with people when I meet them for the time is they hear about the different companies that we have and they're like, well, what was your grand plan for doing that? I literally say this happened accidentally on purpose. It was one step in front of the other and you look and you make the best decision you think of at the time. Hopefully it turns out being a good decision years down the road, but.
But I think it's a fascinating thing. And maybe there's something to that where the best business ideas shouldn't feel like it's a chore. It should feel like it's something that's coming out of that. And, know, Shima, since you brought up, I kind of want to dig into, you know, your experience with scaling BFF and, you know, what went well, what caused that burnout and did that change kind of your thinking around exits and expenses? Because the business itself is well loved. The food is great. But it can still be something where it becomes less of
passion project and more of a millstone around your neck.
Jamil Bhuya (34:00.686)
I think I always had partners that didn't compliment or build me up. Right? So it's kind of like, I have a very particular skillset now that I've realized, and having like a really strong operator or someone that was a little bit more, grounded that could execute better. Like I'm not the best at executing. Right? Like that's not my core strength. I'm not like an ops guy per se. I'm more.
marketing, sales, visions, you know, leadership type, big picture. But because of that, I can kind of be too big picture and all over the place. And so like, can really affect my ability to execute. And I've learned that now and I'm comfortable saying it maybe five years ago, I would have never admitted that, but I think now it's like very dialed in. So with BFF, the biggest things I struggled with was just, I didn't take certain things seriously where it's like, valued what I valued, but because
I didn't value everything else, it would kind of bleed over into the company. So like my attention to detail wasn't as strong as what's needed for like a scaling QSR brand. Cause those details really matter. If you're not cooking food properly, if you're not putting the right items on something, if my burger here isn't as same as my burger there at another location, like those things really affect things. If the build outs at each location feel slightly different and
You know, like while they both look really cool, if you walk into one shop versus the other, like am I in the same place? Um, you know, even just like some of my erraticness with like decision-making, would, I'd be very willing to pivot on a dime without thinking about how this is going to affect, you know, the store, the inventory, the staff, even like printing out flyers and things like that. All these things really matter. So I think for myself, it was really just like not having a stronger compliment to like my weaknesses.
And over time letting the things that I suck at drain the life out of me. So now I'm no longer good at the things that I'm actually good at, if that makes any sense.
Aaron Alpeter (36:07.042)
No, that makes perfect sense to me. I think that, you know, it's hard because everybody, think, to some degree struggles with execution if they're not passionate about the thing they're executing. I'm sure that there were things that were, you know, kind of out there that you really got energized by that you were doubling down. You're like, look, I'll stay up till 4 a.m. and I'll do this thing because it's cool. And there's other stuff that probably would have taken you 10 minutes. like, I ain't got time for that. Like, I'm not going to do that.
Jamil Bhuya (36:17.816)
Yes.
Jamil Bhuya (36:31.566)
I'm not going to kill.
Aaron Alpeter (36:32.866)
And so I think it's part of this is, yes, everybody struggles with execution. It might be just finding your passion in the business and where you're getting energy from. I wonder, as you guys are thinking about building other half together now, how did you identify which areas you guys have natural passions for and what areas neither of you have a passion for? You're like, look, we know that we're going to have to bring somebody else in who really cares about this particular thing.
Jamil Bhuya (36:58.958)
Right. I mean, yeah, I think it was pretty easy to identify our own passions. Like to your point that you just said of like execution, I love that side of things. from basically how we split things now is like, Jamil goes out to all the events, he does all the outreach, all the sales calls, all the discovery. And then basically once we have a project, now that's handed over to me. So we have these kind of two separate worlds. A big unlock for us is before
when we would, when Jamil would want to go to an event, he'd be like, okay, well you're coming with me. And I'm like, well, I don't really want to go. So then he would feel bad and he wouldn't go. And then we eventually realized, or you eventually realized that I am fine with you going. I just don't want to go. would rather stay at home and sometimes she needs a break from me, but not even you. I just get drained by those types of like networking is not something that I enjoy.
Even I'm kind of like a extroverted introvert or whatever you call that. Like it doesn't, it doesn't feed me. Whereas he can do five events in one day and be like, yeah, tomorrow I'm doing another five. so like identifying that, I think that's been very easy because you don't like doing kind of those, tedious tasks. I don't mind it at all. but then I guess what we're both not good at, I mean, again, we've never done this before, so it's more from.
the sense of scaling this and like, where do we want to take this and what does, what does setting up our agency look like for maybe it is eventually an acquisition or a merger or things like that. Like, what do we have to do from an operations side and from, you know, the proper margins and things like that. That's something that we know that we don't actually know fully. So we've, we've been working with someone who has been there, done that very early on, which some people, some people might think, that's super early. You've only been around for.
Less than a year, but we knew when we found this person we're like, okay, we need to just sync with him once a week just have someone as a sounding board that has been there done that at a much larger scale than us and who understands because we also didn't want to get advice from someone who would also be pushing for us to build an agency that like the type of agency that we didn't want so for example, we are we're trying to build a very
Jamil Bhuya (39:27.2)
asynchronous agency, something that allows our designers to design and not be on calls all day. The way that we approach it is like, we want to give senior talent who have probably been burnt out from agency life in their 20s, when they get into their 30s and up, that they can still do what they love and not be completely burnt out and not able to perform.
So we're kind of creating this different type of agency model. So we wanted someone who also understood that while still helping us be like, okay, but you need to have certain things in place from a business side so that we're not just like flying into the dark, like with our other businesses and just again, growth for the sake of growth is not something that we want. We want to be sure that, okay, like where can we sit where we know that we are living a good lifestyle. We're not.
working 24-7, we still can live our life, our team can live their life, but maybe we'll still be attractive to, you know, a future exit in some capacity, whatever that looks like, down the road. So, yeah, I'll just say one quick thing on that, like to Jaz's point, like we were almost thinking about getting acquired, like not even halfway into this year.
Because a lot of people when they kind of saw the work and they saw the level of output they're like, holy shit This could be like a 10 plus million dollar agency. Are you guys looking to raise some money? And we're like, fuck no, like we don't want your money. Like we don't want to give up control, but I think Pretty early on we recognized like we need to find someone who's been there done that But we actually need to like and respect what they say because we've met some other people who've been there done that Then we see them as a person and everything and again, no shade to them. Like I'm sure
Aaron Alpeter (41:01.622)
Ha ha.
Jamil Bhuya (41:18.894)
A lot of people can't stand me, but I was like, oh my God, I can't stand the way you think about life and work. Yeah, they're just creating like their type of lifestyle is not what we want. So that if that is on the line, that doesn't make sense. And then also even thinking about thinking about the concept of an acquisition or, know, we've just been learning a little bit more about the difference between acquisitions and mergers and how that maybe is more attractive. We also don't want to again, like we really care about our team and we love what we do as well.
So it's like, if that is something that is in the roadmap, how can we do it in a way that's like, again, I'm using the word intentional, but very intentional with like who we would decide to partner with. And it's not like, we never want to get to the point, which kind of happened with the restaurant at a certain point where it was like, it was a reaction. Like I have to get out now. I have to find someone. don't ever want to be at the point where we're.
we're like just picking the first person that wants to acquire us or to merge with us. We want it to be like a very, don't want to gun to your head. Yeah. We want to feel good about it and we want to, you know, potentially keep working with that new system as well. So yeah, we don't have to, we don't have to, but, just being very like very clear about that and not, we just never want it to be a reactionary.
experience. We want it to be that like we are in the driver's seat this time. Because we've had two reactions already. Yeah.
Aaron Alpeter (42:52.406)
Third time's the charm, right? I think what you're saying makes a lot sense. Intentionality and optionality are two sides of the same coin. If you are building toward an exit, that doesn't mean that you have to sell, but it also means that you're going to have clean financials, you're going to have well-documented processes, you're going to have the right HR structure so that if someone did want to come in and pick up your business, it's not dependent on you. And I think that...
Jamil Bhuya (43:01.326)
Yes.
Aaron Alpeter (43:21.986)
you know, having optionality is something that's so important these days and we're seeing it more and more because you don't know if you're going need that extra cash buffer to weather tariffs or you're going have to weather
You know a downturn in the economy or things like that and the companies that get the right to exist are the ones that have options and it doesn't necessarily mean that to your point You know, I've got one option and a deal. can't refuse and you know, that's what I have to do Typically, mean those those companies that are gonna be acquisitive are gonna be the ones that that do have the war chest or do you have the abilities to say hey, know, you've got something good there, but you know, put it onto our chassis and you know, we'll lead and do those sorts of things so I think it's just an interesting kind of element that way and I'm I'm curious as you
Jamil Bhuya (43:46.2)
Yeah.
Aaron Alpeter (44:04.548)
guys interact with all these different types of brands in the agency and it just you you're meeting different people. There's a difference between growth and momentum, right? There's a difference between somebody who has the hype or who you know has the PR or is you know has the tail ends and there's other there's there's a difference between folks that have
Jamil Bhuya (44:13.859)
Mm.
Aaron Alpeter (44:23.934)
a meaningful, repeatable business that goes through. I'm curious, what do you guys see in your clients or prospective clients that helps you understand if this is a company with real staying power or one that is maybe not as durable as they think it is?
Jamil Bhuya (44:39.214)
Yeah, that's an interesting question and it's something we got faced with a lot because I always say like, maybe I'm being a little nihilistic. I always tell people, I'm like, we're nobodies. We're trying to get our name out there. We're trying to really, you know, build our brand. And I think one of the things that really got told a lot is like, we always say we're a project based agency, but then everyone we talked to, like, you need more retainers. You need more retainers. You need a way to make it sticky. And I was like,
Yes, I agree with you, but we're so small, now we're five people. shouldn't keep saying we're so small, but like we're getting bigger and we're looking to grow. like, there's still so much room to grow in, like even just our, our, our very narrow niche that we're in, which is mostly like D to C redesigns or custom builds where it's like, there's so many like adjacent revenue kind of,
fields like retainers and just like ongoing dev work and support but like we're really trying to build our brand first so that All the other funnels that we're doing like I go hard on LinkedIn. I go hard at events You know, we're all trying to like build as many kind of like inbound systems as possible even though that they might not seem Super systemized. It's like hey, how can we create like?
three to five very good in-bound streams and like just focus on that whereas before in the past I'd try to do everything. It's like had to be on Twitter, I had to be on this, I had to be on Instagram, I had to be on all these things, I had to do a newsletter, I had and then you're just not doing any of them well at all but also realizing that like it's it's a marathon, it's not a sprint. If something is working in the past I would have been like I got to do something new right away while this thing is good but that was kind of like a lacking mindset.
Whereas now I'm like, this is working? I'm going to double, triple, quadruple down on it. I'm going to bleed this thing dry, you know, while it's working and not focus on anything else. And I think that's been like a huge shift.
Aaron Alpeter (46:46.274)
That's awesome. Well guys, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for making time and for sharing your stories and just your wisdom. We've got two questions that we always like to ask on build a business with buying. I guess, Jaz, I'll ask you the first one. What's the best example of a moat that you've seen another business build?
Jamil Bhuya (47:06.584)
Wait, can you answer this one? I think he's better suited to answer. I think ironically like Shopify, like their moat is their ecosystem of app partners and like just everyone's so plugged in. Like the support is great. The actual vendors are amazing and there's, they've just built such a robust ecosystem where they built this amazing like foundational structure. And now they've opened up like a whole new like world.
whole new subset of business that's so reliant on Shopify and its ecosystem, much less the convenience, scalability, security and payment side. It's like you have three pills like yourself. have media companies, you have all these little apps that do such like minute functions that are literally like eight, nine figure businesses that you're like, what the hell like, you know, and,
I think that ecosystem, I think like they're at what, like 15,000 apps and partners. It's like, it's so plugged in that. Like trying to take that down. think that's an amazing moat that they built because it really relies on like great people and partners, which is what builds a business. It's not relying on tools and tech. think the tools and tech that's, that's table stakes. Like you you gotta have that, especially in the e-comm DTC world. But I think it's, it's the.
how they built that ecosystem of app partners and the people that it's brought together, I think that's their mode. Good answer.
Aaron Alpeter (48:41.654)
That's good. And if you guys had to start over today and you were going to build a physical product company, how would you go about building a business worth buying?
Jamil Bhuya (48:51.862)
So yeah, think to my point before, the biggest differentiator is just not building in a silo, like not building by yourself. If we were to launch another product brand, we would probably first also align ourselves with other founders and like create a little bit of a larger founding team of people who have been there, done that. And again, we like have.
these complementary skills, the ones that we're missing. And I think the key one for us for a product brand would be we've never scaled a product brand to like multi-million. So we would want to be aligned with someone in some capacity who has done something like that and has been there before. And then just like talking about it. I think that's the biggest difference. Again, I know I say like building in a silo, but it's not, it's, it's not as much like just
getting out, it's also talking about what you're doing and like not being afraid to just like say it over and over and like post about it and all these things. so just like being more public building in public, I think is really important because people like to support people trying something for the first time. You just have to be okay, putting yourself out there and like sharing the mistakes and all of that stuff. So, I, I'll build on that and just say like probably not.
chasing like a trend or something that's hot, especially with product. It's like, used to very much believe that like, you know, the first mover advantage is real and it is, it is very real, but also first movers can get into maybe an industry or category or a product that doesn't have massive market share. It might be hot for a little bit. so it's kind of like,
And the speed that you need to execute and iterate at can actually be detrimental to its long-term growth as things kind of fizzle out. Like we've seen it with so many different tools and industries and even trends. know, we were actually ironically talking about fidget spinners the other day. And I remember I had such FOMO about them being like, holy shit, like all the dropshippers, these guys made like how much in like how long and this thing costs like a buck. Like that's a stressful place to be constantly having to pivot.
Jamil Bhuya (51:05.23)
Yeah, constantly. it's really like building with like a long term, you know, a long term plan in mind, but like, really taking your time like it's, it's a marathon, not a sprint. think that's like the best way to describe it. If I were to do a product brand again.
Aaron Alpeter (51:26.55)
Love it. Well, Jaz Jamil, thank you so much for being on Build a Business Worth Buying and thank you for the listeners for tuning in. I've learned a lot. This has been a lot of fun and we'll look forward to having you guys back next on Build a Business Worth Buying.
Jamil Bhuya (51:39.17)
Thank you, thanks for having us. Thank you guys. Bye.