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Study envy to find messages from our future selves
We unpack the role of envy, not as a toxic emotion to be avoided or ashamed of, but a normal feeling that gives us clues to understanding our unmet desires, unfulfilled potential, and prompting necessary change.
We unpack the role of envy, not as a toxic emotion to be avoided or ashamed of, but a normal feeling that gives us clues to understanding our unmet desires, unfulfilled potential, and prompting necessary change.
- envy vs jealousy. Jealousy is possessiveness, envy is wanting what others have, or wanting to be them
- becoming less envious of others as we get older
- the emptiness at the heart of existence remains in place no matter who we are or what we have
- house prices, salaries, wealth distribution
- complex, changing feelings, hiding then reveal the path to self-growth
- fitting in vs standing out
- being the object of envy
- being envious of contemporaries, such as friends, people we went to school or work with
- having envy towards our own partners
- bike shorts/yoga pants: acceptable clothing for everyone?
- getting beneath the surface of desire, wanting a greater sense of freedom
- gender and clothing: do women have greater freedom in terms of clothing?
- 'painful but necessary steps'
- Ali's dream of growing more of her own food
- self-envy, a 'better version of ourself' from the past
- Joe's epic case of personal envy towards a contemporary
- therapy: like cleaning a mirror, with the image becoming clearer over time.
- daily transformations that count towards personal growth
- the importance of casual conversations for therapeutic value
- (00:00) - Introduction and Welcome
- (00:28) - Discussing Alain de Botton's Quote on Envy
- (01:41) - Understanding Envy and Jealousy
- (02:05) - Personal Experiences with Envy
- (02:48) - Envy and Lifestyle Aspirations
- (03:24) - Debate on Work and Lifestyle
- (05:30) - Envy in Youth and Adulthood
- (05:55) - Envy and Money
- (08:49) - Envy of partners in relationships
- (11:32) - Envy and Personal Style
- (29:16) - The Illusion of Success
- (29:24) - The Changing Landscape of Attainable Dreams
- (30:04) - The Struggle with Identity and Expectations
- (30:20) - The Reality of Career Success
- (31:20) - The Shift in Perception of Wealth and Success
- (32:32) - The Struggle with Personal Limitations
- (33:34) - The Reality of Life's Unpredictability
- (34:30) - The Desire for Freedom from Wage Slavery
- (35:12) - The Struggle with Self-Blame and Helplessness
- (37:36) - The Journey Towards Self-Reliance and Acceptance
- (42:31) - The Power of Reflection and Self-Understanding
00:00 Theme, intro
00:28 Alain de Botton's Quote on Envy
01:41 Understanding Envy and Jealousy
02:05 Personal Experiences with Envy
02:48 Envy and Lifestyle Aspirations
03:24 Debate on Work and Lifestyle
05:30 Envy in Youth and Adulthood
05:55 Envy and Money
08:49 Envy of partners in relationships
11:32 Envy and Personal Style
29:16 The Illusion of Success
29:24 The Changing Landscape of Attainable Dreams
30:04 The Struggle with Identity and Expectations
30:20 The Reality of Career Success
31:20 The Shift in Perception of Wealth and Success
32:32 The Struggle with Personal Limitations
33:34 The Reality of Life's Unpredictability
34:30 The Desire for Freedom from Wage Slavery
35:12 The Struggle with Self-Blame and Helplessness
37:36 The Journey Towards Self-Reliance and Acceptance
42:31 The Power of Reflection and Self-Understanding
Creators & Guests
Host
What is The Ten Thousand Things?
Sometimes deep, often amusing, therapeutic chats touching on philosophy, spirituality, religion, consciousness, culture, music, dating, and life. Join Sam, Joe and Ali as they discuss the 10,000 illusions that make up “reality”.
Musical theme by Ehsan Gelsi - Ephemera (Live at Melbourne Town Hall)
Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,
Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.
Ali: And then there are the 10, 000
things.
Sam: Hello, and welcome
to the 10, 000 things.
My name is Sam Ellis.
I'm Joe Loh.
Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.
Joe: Today on the show, we're going
to start with another quote from
patron of the show, Alain de Botton.
This one struck a chord
with all of us, I think.
Definitely me.
Okay.
Yeah.
Maybe not
Ali: Ali.
Yeah, no, no, I, I, I
read it last night again.
I, yeah.
Joe: Excellent, we're
all very well prepared.
Okay, Sam, do you want to read it out?
Sam: Don't worry, I've got
great, examples, but yeah.
I'll try and do it,
Alain de Botton justice.
While envy has always been a target
of fierce and moralistic criticism,
it is also an indispensable
feature of a decent life.
It is a call to action that should be
heeded, for it contains garbled messages
sent by muddied but important parts of
our personalities about what we should
be doing with the rest of our lives.
Listening to envy should help us
to take painful yet necessary steps
towards becoming who we really are.
Instead of trying to repress
our envy, We should therefore
make every effort to study it.
Each person we envy possesses some
piece of the jigsaw puzzle depicting
our possible future condition.
Joe: Envy.
Sam: Very true.
Yes.
In my experience.
Joe: Healthy emotion.
Sometimes I get this confused, but
envy is quite different from jealousy.
Yes.
Sam: Jealousy is possessiveness
of someone or something.
Envy is covetousness of what others have.
Yes.
What others are perhaps.
I want to be her.
I want to be him.
Joe: So garbled messages
from who we could be.
Sam: It's garbled messages
I've come to think from the.
From the future, from your aspirations.
Ali: Yeah, well like, yeah, there'll
be somebody that, I think I realised
this quite young, like, there'll
be somebody I'm like, I don't
like that person for some reason.
God, they just give me the shits.
There's just something about them.
They're so up themselves.
Yeah, there's something,
and then I, you know.
Through growth and learning.
Mm-Hmm.
And age, wisdom I, you realize,
oh, there's something in
them that I'm so envious of.
Yes.
Pay attention
Sam: to what you
Ali: hate.
Yeah.
And I, and that's one of my, probably
my earliest memories of lack of envy
and actually realizing, oh, that's,
there's something in that person that
Sam: I unexplained hostility towards
somebody is always very revealing.
Ali: Yes.
Sam: If you take the
time to think about it.
Ali: Yes.
And so, I mean, I, I very.
I don't find myself these days very
envious of people in that way anymore.
Um, I just, I'm envious of people's
lifestyles where they don't have to work.
Yeah, that's, and you know what?
That is entirely understandable.
Yeah,
that's, I mean, I very like, you know,
especially like you see on social
media or TikTok or something like that.
You see people living
these fabulous lifestyles.
In theory.
In theory, yes.
You know, and seemingly
don't have to work.
that I envy.
I, I'd like to not have a nine to five.
That'd be good.
Sam: Oh, and just to be clear,
everybody, Ali is not work shy.
She would be incredibly busy
with the garden and the pickling
and the salad and the offspring
and other people's offspring.
I don't know.
Joe: Yeah, we've had this.
Debate.
I don't want to get into it.
I don't think
Sam: it's relevant to the topic.
Oh God, it's making Joan cross already.
See, he envies it.
Joe: Oh, I just don't think Ali's dream
of not working, like she just had a
month of not working and Not working.
Fell in a heap.
She actually
Sam: needs a structure.
No, not working a soul
destroying wage job.
Ah,
Joe: but that's most jobs.
Like, the jobs are soul destroying,
we're forced to do them by capitalism
and they give us structure and
And they keep us vaguely on track.
And actually, Ali, you would
fall in a heap if you got your
envious desire to not work.
Ali: No, I feel like there's structure
in doing the things you want to
do and having the time to do it.
Joe: But when you get
the chance, you don't.
You
Ali: fall in a heap.
No, but that's because I don't have the
property, the farm property or anything
like that to actually do the stuff I want
Joe: to do.
So you're not envious of any particular
person, but you're envious of anyone
who's got a million dollars or more.
Ali: No, not necessarily.
There's just a lifestyle that I.
Would be able, I would love to be able
Sam: luxurious lifestyle.
No, it's not particularly, like it's
quite, there would be cow shit involved.
Ali: Yeah, absolutely.
Like I've been, I, in my
month off, I watched a lot of
Yellowstone, much to Joe's horror.
But you know, I'm just like,
Sam: terrible show in some ways.
Joe: But then also, my horror
was because that guy made a film
called, uh, Hello High Water, which
was incredible, five star film.
Then he made another,
Sam: now he's just a, he's a TV machine.
Joe: Yeah, then he made another film
called Wind River, which is incredible.
And then he took the money and
made bloody Yellowstone, which I
tuned in, I was like, Oh my God,
Yellowstone's going to be amazing.
It's the guy from Hell of High Water.
And in a way it is amazing to a degree.
Ali: Yeah, but I'm totally, like I said,
I am one step back from booking like a
one way ticket to Montana and finding
a cowboy and living that lifestyle.
Sam: Well, there is some
cheap land in Montana.
I mean, a lot of it doesn't
have any water on it.
Ali: All those things don't
concern me with my interest
in the play I'm realistic.
Joe: But bringing it back to
the quote, like, you've never
been envious of an individual?
And learnt in the Alain de Botton sense?
Oh no, no, no, you were.
Ali: You absolutely
were when I was younger.
Not now, not now.
But I don't very, I don't.
Feel that now.
Joe: That's so interesting.
I was going to say the exact same thing.
That quote resonates
with me massively at 25,
Sam: but it resonates in a
different, it hits different.
It hits different.
Joe: Because of the emptiness
at the heart of existence.
And you, I mean, Ali, you've got people
in your family who are quite wealthy and.
It hasn't solved existential problems.
Ali: No, absolutely not.
No.
Some of the most miserable people I know.
Money.
Money.
Sam: Money solves money problems though.
It has that feature.
Absolutely.
Joe: And you know,
Ali: like.
What it does is it makes, there's
a, I would like to have money so
that things are not a catastrophe.
They're just inconveniences.
Sam: If the roof leaks, it's
not the end of the world.
Joe: And that's right.
Like I was, I'm in a position
where my washing machine broke
down the other day and I'm fucked.
I can't, I don't have any money to fix it.
So that's not a.
Like a highly intellectual this one way
or another about money That's and I hope
I'm gonna be able to solve the problem,
but I need more money I need more money
so that when my washing machine breaks,
I can just get a new one or get it
repaired Yeah to be able to say fuck.
I don't know how to wash my clothes that
43 is incredibly depressing Potentially
didn't actually make me that depressed.
But so there's you'll get on your tits,
but there's subsistence like I want
to be above subsistence, and I used
to have envy, yeah, I don't want to
get too quickly into my envy, I want
to hear what you guys have to say,
but yes, when I read that quote, when
I highlighted that quote a couple of
years ago, I was like, As almost always,
Alain de Botton's really onto something.
Sam: He's nailed it.
Joe: But what I felt, where I'm at
now, is my ambitions drained away to
the point where the envy that's going
to spur me on to outdo that person
I'm envious of has kind of died out.
I don't feel that
in my 40s.
Or you just don't, you realise
that those things that you were
Sam: It's not going to do it for you.
Ali: Yeah, that you've tried that or
you've, you know, you've You sort of
work through that or you realize it's not
nearly as important as you used to be.
The importance is just not there that
you thought was when you were younger.
Like, if I think of the people
that I was envious of and
the qualities that they had.
Sam: It was often pretty basic stuff.
Ali: It was really basic stuff.
It was around, you know,
popularity and social skills and
things that I obviously lack.
Always looking good.
Yeah.
Looking amazing.
All those sorts of things.
And it's like, actually those
Sam: Never having a bad skin or hair day.
Ali: Yeah.
And I, those things actually
seem so immaterial now.
Like they just don't seem
important in the way they used to.
Yeah.
Yeah, that it's never
something like that, but
also you're not an acne mess these
days and like, were you at any point?
Yeah,
absolutely.
Yeah.
Terrible, terrible acne, you
know, and overweight and terrible
hair, like terrible hair cut,
which We all had roaccutane at one point.
Oh, yep.
Awful stuff.
Worst, worst.
And so, but
Joe: people would have been envious
of you at times, Sam, when you
were, when you had the hottest
girlfriend on Brunswick Street.
Yep.
We'd get around in a dress and people
be like, wow, that guy's just owning it.
And like,
Sam: yeah, I was Russell
branding before Russell Brand.
Oh, Russell Brand.
No, only in the good sense.
Oh, not in the sex cult sense.
Yeah.
No 16 year old girls.
No.
I saw a picture of him one
day and I was like, Oh.
That's what I've been doing.
Midriff tops and like tight jeans
and long hair and, you know,
it's really just a 70s thing.
It's just like 70s.
It's like a 70s, 70s sort of gender.
What it
Ali: is, is a sense of style
and confidence in that sense of
style that not a lot of people
have that that all can pull off.
I mean, that's certainly something when I
was younger that it takes guts to do it.
It really does.
Yeah.
And then having moments where I've
potentially, when I was younger,
manic and then going out and actually
dressing and buying the things that
We're outrageous and having a wardrobe
full of outrageous clothes and actually
knowing what that feels like and
going, Oh, it's actually quite easy.
If I want to wear my leopard print
coat, it's, it's a cheat code.
Yeah.
It's, it's a cheat code.
Yeah.
Whereas before owning that or before
even having the confidence to do that
and seeing other women like that,
Sam: it's the will to
actually do it yourself.
That's the problem.
Ali: The thing, yeah, for me,
it was mania was the thing
that actually tipped me over.
Sam: It got that, it got that prohibition,
that moral prohibition out the way.
Joe: So, nerdy teenagers,
envious of people who are
more popular and good looking.
Let's do
Sam: the list.
So, when I was 12, I had awful acne,
I had braces, I had op shop and
hand me down clothes, I used long
words, I didn't watch any of the
same shows as any of the other kids.
Ali: Are you, Sam is
explaining my childhood.
Sam: We are on a, we are
on a, yeah, we're on it.
And it was a feeling of mutual
recognition when we met.
It's like, yep, yep, I know
what it was like for you.
And it's like, and we read too many books
and I would try to talk about the wrong
things and like, just fuck off, nerd.
But the amount of times I heard that,
Ali: just like, just shut the fuck up.
Sam: Yeah, who are you?
What is this?
This guy's a fuckwit.
And then, so envying people
that fit it in, okay.
And then doing the obvious thing
and going, well, fuck fitting in
then, I don't care what anyone
thinks, I'm going to stick out more.
And that like, which is.
I'm going
Ali: to put the target on my back myself.
Sam: That's right.
And it's, it's understandable,
but counterproductive.
And eventually you realize it
was actually, it just gives you
actually have some desire to fit in.
Doesn't mean you're like you're in,
you know, fascist has won the battle.
Like it's a little more
complicated than that.
Ali: He's just wanting to feel a sense
of community and a part of something.
Yeah.
Which is a very human, you know, thing
to want to not, to not be lonely.
And there's a loneliness in
being that weird, awkward child.
Sam: There sure is.
And, and, and let's look at the most
successful, cause Alain de Botton
is very instructive in this regard.
Cause he said another thing, which I've
been thinking about this whole time, which
is advertising sells us important things.
They show us pictures of
what we really want and then
replace it with something else.
And so, what do we want?
Belonging, being valued by others,
and usefulness, and like, an
integrated, meaningful life.
we want to fit in, but we want to be
able to be different at the same time.
And so I also envied
Ali: I want to fit in, but
like be accepted just for
who we are as an individual.
Yes, exactly.
Sam: Yes.
I want us, I want everyone to
accept me as Completely like
them, but also to celebrate me in
all the ways I'm not like them.
Yes, and I'm going to envy the people.
So I went from envying the people
that stood, that fitted in really
well, to envying the people
that stood out in the right way.
And then little by little,
I was able to do that.
And then as you say, Jo, studied.
I envy so well that I was able
to inspire it in others and then
realised how hollow that was as well.
Joe: Yes.
Yeah.
So do you have a number one person
you've ever been envious of?
Oh, sure.
Like
Sam: Jim Morrison or Jimi Hendrix.
Oh, so
Joe: not, but not in your actual, not
a contemporary or someone in your, Oh
Sam: yeah, of course.
actually, you know, just as often
it was girls, you know, a girl I
can remember was very athletic.
Like, I mean, a lot of other people
thought she was super good looking.
That wasn't the thing.
It was just, uh, like gracefulness and
the physical, superb physical instincts.
Just knew when to turn and where to
look and like, complete mystery to me.
How do you do that?
Ali: It was all, I mean, I went to like a.
You know, private all girls school.
So there was a lot of girls who
were like, who ticked all of those
boxes who were like, they were
academic, but they were also athletic.
They were in, you know, they
were in the school plays.
They were like, they were just, you know,
they had all the badges on their blazer.
They were in all the groups, you
know, they were all the elite.
They're today's, you know,
You know, leaders, right?
Like successful women, some of them
peaked in high school, but a lot of them
have gone on to do like amazing things.
And just as this very
socially awkward, unmotivated.
Scatterbrain.
And just, and you know, into my, in
my, so much in my own little world.
Sam: I envy people that have
it together, like that can put
things on a list and then do them.
Yes.
Ali: Yeah.
Very much so.
Like, yeah, they were like,
okay, we've got exams now.
I'm going to study this.
Sam: And then do you do that?
Ali: I'm going to read it on the tram
on the way to school, which is what
I think I did for a lot of year 12.
And like, I just, you know, I
was like, okay, well this is
as much as I'm going to learn.
I was just lucky I had a good
memory.
Yeah, had enough natural gifts
to just, like, get you through.
Yeah, but like, yeah, like just
the people who, I suppose, I think,
yeah, that, that, that work ethic.
Which, I mean, I've only come to
recognize that I actually do have in
myself, but I've obviously got a lot of
barriers to it, but I, but it actually
is there, but that was something I
really envied in a lot of people and
what it was, was sort of an executive
function, basically, like who's, or
like, it's more, actually, I should say
it's more than an executive function
and the person I would say actually more
so than anybody else I'd ever met in
my entire life is my, my son's father.
Yeah.
He's one of those people that
will go, I'm going to do the thing
and then just does the thing.
And then like, whatever it was,
whether it was, I'm going to
learn how to use a unicycle.
I'm going to learn how
to juggle this week.
I'm going to learn how to read.
I'm going to read up on
this very specific topic.
Sam: I'm going to, I'm going to
get to three balls this week.
Ali: Yeah.
And then I was like, I'm going to
learn about the stock market this week.
Whatever it was.
Joe: Three incredibly annoying examples.
Ali: Yeah.
Whatever it was.
I love it.
Whatever.
Yeah.
He was like.
The joke was that he was becoming like
a circus clown because he was learning
how to like do all those sorts of things.
But whatever it was, there was always like
Joe: a little God, juggling,
unicycle, stock market.
What an arsehole.
Ali: Whatever it was, it didn't,
like, whatever, like, yeah.
It doesn't matter.
It's, it's It was just, I've decided,
oh, this week I'm going to do this thing.
Sam: No, he just identified
it as a challenging thing.
It's like And
Ali: then, yeah, he just needed a
challenge and then he would just Just
do it and then he would complete it.
And I just found that just baffling that
I couldn't even get past the first step.
Joe: This is interesting.
So you're envious of your partner.
Ali: Yes.
Sam: Oh yeah.
I've been there.
Ali: Absolutely.
Yeah.
I was, it was just, and I mean, and
from him, I was a source of frustration
in that I would say I want to do all
these things, but I wouldn't do them.
And so it would become
like this mystification.
It would just be like
this point of resentment.
It's like, you're not doing the
thing you said you're going to do.
Totally.
Yeah.
So what's the matter with you?
Well, one of the many reasons, but like
but yeah, but I mean, so it's one of
those things I simultaneously absolutely
admired about him and do admire about him.
And I think he's, you know, one of the
wonderful things he's actually passed
on to my son, who's also like very
similarly minded to him, in that way.
So, you know, grateful, but
also, yeah, like I would be.
I was very envious of
Sam: that.
That's hard.
Well, would you be?
Yeah, very hard.
I can certainly relate.
Joe: Yeah, your partner's
very accomplished.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've always had very
accomplished partners.
Always.
No, a girl could be pretty.
Not enough.
Not enough.
Like, yeah, on its own.
No, no.
Joe: And like having some sort of drive
Sam: and like, they can
do something I can't do.
Like, and it, it doesn't
matter what it is.
It's like, it's just anything
that's like admirable.
And yeah, I'm going to try to do that too.
It's hot.
It is.
Ali: Yeah.
Like, just like, even watching a
Joe: man But what do they get from us?
Just a bit of entertainment.
I'm competent
Sam: too.
Ali: No, but just watching, like,
I remember this, this is another
X years ago and him driving so
confidently without directions.
And I was just like How do you do that?
I'm like, I'm so much more
attracted to you right now.
Cause he was always a little bit useless
in every other way, but like, that
was one time I remember looking at him
Sam: going Baby driver.
Good movie.
Yeah.
Incredible.
Ali: But yeah, but I was just, it was
like in a moment where I was like, Ooh.
Yeah.
It's hot.
Like it's hot.
Like, yeah, just, well, you know,
watching someone help, you know, like
just do something with ease, whether
it's watching them cook a meal or put
a tent up or like figure out how to fix
the washing machine, whatever it is,
watching somebody do something like that.
Joe: It makes me realize I need to get
more women to watch me play cricket.
Sam: It's so instructive.
Wow.
That's a such a hard sell.
Joe: It's the only thing that I do that.
Well, that's, yeah, that's,
you've got to invite all of you.
I'm do any of those other
things you just listed.
Sam: No, you're good at potting.
There you go.
Joe: I'm a good driver, but Oh, you are?
That's true.
Like, I'm a confident and exciting driver.
Ali: I've driven with you, Joe.
It's like taking your
life into your hands.
Victoria Police.
Oh my God.
No, it's not.
Yes, it is.
You've got, you're so,
with the phone, oh my God.
He's melded with the machine.
He's changing the music every two seconds.
Yeah,
Sam: but I'm, I'm Do you know
what, at one, I'm at one.
Joe, I've got a product
recommendation for you.
I'm in the flow state.
You need to check out Perplexity.
It's going to, it's going to solve a
number of problems for you all at once.
It's going to give you that fire
hose of news, but like actual
just dot points, no fluff.
And yeah, try perplexity.
It's the new AI product.
That's it.
Basically they want to take
down Google and, and traditional
media at the same time.
as in the traditional article media,
I reckon you'd love it, but cause
yeah, I've never seen anyone as
well integrated with their device.
Yes.
Like just completely one.
With like two machines at the same time.
Ali: Yeah, he's having like three
conversations and driving and changing
the music and putting in Google
directions and it's like, okay.
Joe: It's a flow state.
It is.
It's a flow state.
It's really something.
That'll help you if you
get pulled over, Joe.
As I said, Victoria Police covered this.
No, it's
all, it's all legal.
It's all up on my dashboard.
Yeah.
Oh yeah, that's true.
It's not like I'm looking
at it in my, in my lap.
Yeah, yeah.
Anyway, we're way off
the topic of everything.
So you two won't name, I was going to
name names, that's why I, I was trying to
get you guys, not from your high school,
but in your twenties or thirties, like.
Sam: Okay, I can do, I
can do you one better.
Much more recent.
I can't name names though.
It's just basically, late 30s or
whatever, I became aware of the,
you know, the active wear trend.
I think in America they refer to yoga
pants and, you know, people, well
women walking around in yoga pants.
And so for like a brief moment, I had
that like, not a moralistic reaction,
just a Oh, we're doing that now, are we?
Like this is acceptable, is it?
And like, I couldn't, you know,
honestly, I felt a degree of sadness.
What are you
Joe: talking about?
Like camel toes in public?
Not, no, no,
Ali: just, no, it's like a lack
of effort to get dressed at the
house that you're just wearing.
I thought it
Joe: was like displaying
your entire anatomy.
Oh, well that, that can happen too.
Ali: Yeah.
But it's, it's more, I,
I, I perceive it as like.
Yeah, that there's no sense of
occasion when people leave the
house anymore with clothes.
Yeah.
Sam: Now, and
Joe: I think that's Oh, see,
I always thought women were
getting pissed off because other
women had better bums than them.
Ali: There's probably an element
of that with some women, but I just
Oh, but no, there's a lot of things
going on all at once, like Yeah,
but then, like, who am I to judge?
Because it's comfy, and I've certainly
gone out in my leggings before, so
Sam: That's right.
I own nice clothes, and I
can't wear them anywhere.
It was same, same, exactly.
No, but at first, at
first I was denying that.
Ah, to yourself.
At first I was like, judgy and
like, oh, well, you know, okay,
everyone's given up, I guess.
George Costanza.
Ali: Yeah, like I had that, like,
it's a crotchety old, like, oh,
we're not putting any effort anymore.
Joe: The richer parts of
town, you see it a lot more.
Yeah,
Ali: but they're wearing
like $400 leggings.
Yeah.
They're wearing the Beck Judd leggings.
That's the Jaguar leggings.
That's, they like, they're not, it's not
that outfit costs more more than like,
Joe: it's not no statement.
It's a statement of it's
look at my legs and bum.
Sam: Oh well, yeah.
But then, but then you also see people
that don't have gym bodies doing it.
Yeah.
And actually.
That's offensive, I agree.
No, no, see, that's the thing, right?
Ali: Jesus Christ, Joe!
Sam: It was a joke, it was a good joke.
He was able to jump on it.
He saw the opportunity.
So, I actually was, that's what It
Ali: was so
Sam: easy.
It's true.
Just reeled her in.
But that's what actually
changed it for me.
Because I had a moment of like a
crossroads where I basically realized I'd
accepted it and I was like put completely
not that it's Men don't ever do it though.
This is where I'm going with it.
So envying the option and envying you
look comfortable and you and you look
happy with yourself and I've felt that
way too and I want to feel that way again.
Ali: It's like men who have to wear suits
into the office in the peak of summer.
Gross.
Like one of my exes, he used to say,
like, it's just so unfair that you can
wear a dress in the peak of summer.
I got to wear a tie and a suit.
Totally.
Which is, yeah, it's bullshit.
Pants suck in Hollywood.
I think it's the culture around that's
really shifted, especially, I mean, I
still work in a corporate thing and I
very rarely see men with a tie, like,
and that's even in law and like they,
you know, obviously they wear their,
you know, gowns and stuff when they're
in court, but that's a whole different,
you know, that's completely different.
Outside of that, most of them
are not wearing a suit and tie.
They're just, you know, it might be in
a smart shirt and pants or jeans, but.
The same as, yeah, like even like the
women, like they don't get dressed
up like, nobody gets dressed up.
I think the pandemic as well really
shifted the way we all dress.
Sam: There's so few, there's so few
occasions and I mean, yeah, well,
so the, the envy was like kind of
the opposite of not having enough
occasions to like wear a nice thing.
It's like, okay, well now, every day
is casual Friday and that's great.
I eventually realized, and it wasn't.
I didn't need to have any judgements
or feel any kind of way about it.
What I was missing was the obvious
thing that I admired all these
people for that decision and I
admired, I could see it felt good.
And then so eventually, you know,
letting the envy instruct me and I
came to a crossroads with a friend
and, uh, we scrawled by, not a gym
body, and we had opposite reactions.
and I was like, because it was
beyond the yoga pants, it was
like, three quarters, you know, o
of skin area is like, it's there.
Mm-Hmm.
And it's, but it's like, it's all
working as far as I'm concerned.
Like Mm-Hmm.
Like, she's a bigger girl, but Yeah.
Statuesque.
Yeah.
Great.
I'm like, see, there you go
that, that, that would feel good.
Mm-Hmm.
And he's like, oh no.
Not at all.
Come on, what's happened?
And I'm like, that's what I used to think.
Now I'm like, I, the penny's dropped.
I'm on board with this.
Yes, I get it.
Body positivity is for everyone.
It's not, it's not just
for big people or this bit.
Like it's for everyone.
Sex positivity is for everyone.
but are yoga pants for everyone?
This is my question.
Cause when ladies have
their bits on display.
No one has a problem with it.
It's great.
But, does anyone need You know,
budgie smugglers, yay or nay.
No, yeah,
Joe: there's no need
for them at the beach.
I suppose it's like Europe and it's
some weird cultural thing that we
don't understand, fine, but like Yeah.
I just spent a week at the beach, I think
I saw one person in budgie smugglers
and they looked ridiculous because
you could see their dick and balls.
Ali: Okay.
But what about like Bike shorts.
I was going to say like the mammals, you
see like the middle aged men in Lycra.
Like you see
Sam: there.
Yeah, yeah.
But I want
Joe: to do it when I'm not riding a bike.
But they're moving, at least
they're moving at 50 k's an hour.
Sam: No, but then I get off
the bike and they all go to
Ali: the cafe and they're all,
yeah, that's bad luck too.
It's not.
I, I just, I, I've so moved beyond caring
what anybody, yeah, like, yeah, when I was
Joe: getting to a point.
It's just, I don't know what
this has to do with Envy, but
it's gotten to a point where I
Sam: thought I wasn't allowed to wear
bike shorts, Joe, because you see
girls wearing bike shorts, and they're
comfortable, and people of all ages, not
Joe: just young people.
And they just answered
it, just wear Lycra.
Just wear it.
Yeah.
Just rock it.
Sam: I started.
Yeah.
And then, you know, I did get a little
pushback, you know, from like one person,
like, oh, and you're not exercising?
And I'm like, Who cares?
Well, actually, I did do a fast walk.
I broke into a jog earlier.
In fact, it just creates a feeling
of that, that being an option.
Ali: But there's things you
shouldn't even have to justify.
If you just, you just like the vibe,
you like the look, you like the comfort.
Joe: And that's what someone
said to me about, um What is the
Sam: reason?
I don't need to interview them
anymore, I just join them.
Joe: Yeah.
Someone said to me, you know, women aren't
going to be impressed with you, Joe,
walking around in a tracksuit when you're
damn sure, no, you haven't been for a run.
Just by looking at you.
Sam: Missing the point of tracksuits.
I mean, sure.
It's
Ali: leisure wear.
Leisure can be however you want to.
Joe: I walk around in the most
comfortable clothes I can find.
Sam: Anyone who hasn't had
the memo might judge it.
Joe: But like, I'm putting in a huge
amount of effort to have a look.
I like someone in yoga pants generally.
Sam: Well, today you've got
stubbies and a short sleeve
shirt and they match and they do.
Ali: I really disagree with that in that
there are a lot of women who spend, like I
said, a lot of money on matching high end
active wear, but it is actually the look.
It is not that they've, I've just
thrown, like, I'll throw on leggings
because I'm just like, can't be bothered
getting changed into pants to go to the
supermarket, but it's different levels.
Joe: It's attractive in the
same way that going to Elwood.
And every woman you saw was naked
or in their underwear is attractive.
It's just that the female form is
attractive to me as a straight man.
And the female form is basically
with the thinnest layer of
Sam: I would say it's universally
Joe: admired.
It's probably less sexy than the
60s and miniskirts or something.
So
Sam: Well, that's just it.
I've
Joe: eventually What's the envy link?
The envy is that you wanted to be able to
walk around like a woman in yoga pants.
Sam: Well, it goes back to when I was
20 and exploiting a boundary between
the way the gender is constructed in
through clothing and just having fun
with that because it, look, it's,
it's hard to explain if you haven't
been out on the town in clothing,
that's like, you know, theoretically
not for you, I can't tell you.
How liberating and illuminating it is
and not every experience will be positive
and that's kind of the point and you
it's good and bad and it changes the way
people treat you, it changes the way you
think about yourself and it's very easy.
Gender non binary is for everyone.
I've come to realize like there are times
when people are not being their gender.
And that you are GNB at that time,
like you are, like the act of being
a man or a woman, it's work, like
mentally, it's work, sartorially.
There's all these things you have to
do to maintain this identity, like
using certain language and so on.
And The same goes for sexuality
and, you know, nationality
and all these other things.
They're all maintained through effort and
through clothing and through language.
And we've got a degree
of choice in the matter.
And not everyone has to, you know,
actively embrace, like, In the
public, a non binary personality,
Joe: but getting back to the quote, what's
the garbled message that the yoga pants
are sending you about your future self?
Sam: Instead of judging these people,
which I didn't do for particularly
long because it's like, Oh,
well, this is clearly a universal
phenomenon and it's not going away,
so why bother being mad about it?
Like I very quickly,
I wasn't mad about it.
I was just like puzzled, I think at
first and like, I didn't really get it.
But then I did start to feel like that.
Yeah.
What I would describe as envy.
Yeah.
And judgment.
because for me, I never
experienced that envy by itself.
There's usually some judgment.
Like, who do you think you are?
And do you think you're better than me?
Ali: Like you said, it came back
to a dislike of that person.
Like I perceived it as a dislike
of that person, but it's not.
Sam: No, it's not enough just
to go, I want what they have.
It's they're doing something
wrong by having that.
And, and I had to do a lot of therapy.
Joe: So the garbled message
about your future self?
Sam: The garbled message
is you don't feel free.
Yes.
And you perceive this person
as having a freedom you don't
possess and it's made you angry.
Yes.
All you've got to do is
Joe: take that message from your
future self, from someone who
doesn't work and has a hobby farm.
I mean, it could be.
Ali: It's free.
It's the exact same message.
It's that there, there's a
freedom there that I don't have.
Joe: But the way to get that.
The most logical thing would be
to do everything you can to get
the most high paying job you
can, ASAP, and eventually get
your hobby firm.
Sam: I don't know, screw jobs.
It's all about, owning the
means of production, Joe.
Like, just having something you can
charge other people for being yourself.
Joe: No, but I'm saying to Ali, in the
Alain de Botton sense of getting a garbled
message from these people, she's jealous.
She's envious.
Sam: Well, maybe you don't need 100 acres.
Maybe you only
Ali: need Oh, like, I'd be happy with
just You know, anything, but like, it's,
yeah, like, I think it comes back to,
yeah, like you said, a sense of freedom.
There is a freedom that you're, for
whatever reason, we're constrained
by, whether it's something we're
doing ourselves, the way we've
been socialized, whatever it is.
There is some sort of
constriction that we're, yeah.
Sounds
Joe: like the problem's capitalism
Sam: to a degree.
Yeah, it's
Ali: the way we're all socialized.
Like, yeah, it's like, you know.
Particularly, I mean, I think it is
different now or it's certainly shifting,
but you know, growing up in the eighties
and nineties, there was sort of one way
to be a little boy or a little girl.
You would, you were going to
be interested in these things.
You were going to have these career
options and then, you know, motherhood
if you're a girl, you know, fatherhood
if you're a boy, like all these things
that were sort of expected of you.
Oh.
And
Sam: working in an office.
Ali: Working at, you know, working
in an office that you would
then, you know, buy your house.
That's what success was.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you'd have your White picket
fans and your kids and your dog
Sam: and being white collar,
then the white picket.
Ali: Yeah.
And you'd had it and you know,
it was all sort of planned out.
Mm-Hmm.
And I think because one knows
things are, are off, just not
really even attainable anymore.
No.
In any way, shape or form for some people.
Joe: Well, from, from the vast majority,
you guys get way too dramatic and a
Sam: lot of people have it
and don't feel great anyway.
Exactly.
Yeah, that's true.
Joe: The other part of the hellscape
that we somehow live in in Australia
is this nonsense, but there's a
Ali: lot of, there's a full.
A variety of reasons why they can't
have those things, won't have those
things, there is a shift to, yeah, like,
and there is a shift of, I think, in a
more accepting way of what It is to be,
particularly around gender and sexuality
that wasn't there when we were younger.
That's right.
Which is, you know, a good thing.
I felt it was a
Sam: limitation since I can remember.
Joe: I think you're externalizing,
as you said, you went to an elite
private school and then the other women
Sam: you went with Where
femininity is highly
Joe: constructed.
Yeah.
You had certain problems, whatever they
were, whether it's bipolar or whatever.
But it's not
Sam: an atypical experience.
No, no.
Joe: Yeah.
But Ali's projecting and externalizing
your lack of a career success
when all these contemporaries have
all the stuff you just mentioned.
They have financial freedom.
She actually doesn't want it.
Sam: She actually doesn't
want career success.
You're not listening,
Ali: Joe.
Career success is not,
Sam: it's not.
She doesn't want it.
No,
Joe: no, but, but you, but then
you turn around and say, and people
just can't get that these days.
It's not true about people.
Sam: Oh, that was, that
was a throwaway remark.
Ali: It
Joe: is, housing is more expensive,
but it's not true that Australia
is this, because like I said
before, I'm completely broke.
And I also have basically not a
very functioning career, so I'm not
saying this isn't, but I don't then
project that onto Australia and
say, Australia isn't functioning.
Well, no, I'm not functioning very well.
I don't know how much that's
because I have a mental illness.
I don't know.
I don't have the thing.
Sam: Blame yourself for not being good.
Ali: That's good stuff.
Very healthy.
It is
Joe: healthier.
No more blames into oneself, Joe,
Ali: healthier than, it
is healthier than blaming.
The statistics of it, like three times
what was it, your average income, and now
it's ten times, it's just not the same.
Joe: It's crazy to say otherwise.
Sam: You're a facts guy, you're a Michael.
Let's look at the graphs.
But
Joe: that's the facts, that
apart from house prices.
If you
Ali: didn't have, oh,
and wages not keeping up.
Well, I look around at,
wait a, wait a minute.
Joe: I look around at my contemporaries,
Sam: apart from all the things
that have gone backwards.
Joe: Yeah, everything's great.
When I look around at my
contemporaries, yeah, they are all
on over a hundred grand a year.
They've all been able to
buy their million dollar
Ali: giving a Gen X.
We're talking about like.
I'm
Joe: really not.
And it's, and it's, it wouldn't matter,
except it's actually holding you back.
Because it's so revealing.
You're giving yourself
a free pass on this.
Oh well, the system's fucked.
Sam: It's so revealing that you
keep focusing on salaries and wages.
Like, if.
If you have to go to our place, or you
don't get money, and then there's a
problem, you are not doesn't matter how
big that salary is, you're in a trap.
You have a problem.
You could be 300 a year, by the
way, the tax on that is massive.
Joe: I just get frustrated with this lazy,
like, everything's fucked, therefore,
I'll just stay in a dead end job.
No, no, that's not that's absolutely
Sam: That's the point, no.
We're trying to listen to the envy and see
Joe: where it points.
This is why it's so crucial to this
topic is actually, you could look
around probably your social media and
find 30 contemporaries you went to
high school with, they're all more
successful career wise than you.
And they don't, and this dream
of freedom of a hobby farm isn't,
is, is within reach for them.
But you
Sam: don't, it's not, it's not
arising from comparing yourself
with your contemporaries.
I was going to
Ali: say, a lot of my contemporaries
are not in that position that they
could go and have a hobby farm anyway.
Like a lot of them.
Like the reality is, well, yeah,
they've got divorces at this age,
they're, they're, they're renting again.
Then you have to move back
in with their parents.
Sam: If anything, the comparison
with your peers is comforting
Ali: to a degree.
Yeah, exactly.
Like it's not, everybody is doing great.
I mean, there were obviously a couple of
exceptions to that rule, but I'd say the
vast majority of people, like, it's not
what we, we were sold this idea of what.
would happen if we achieve these
things in high school, which absolutely
has not panned out I'd say for the
majority of people, for me and younger,
and particularly the younger ones.
And look,
Sam: come on, there's loads of
people in their forties that
hasn't worked out that way too.
Yeah.
Or if it has, it
Ali: has to a point.
And then yes, I'm like a large life
event, like illness or divorce or
something like that has completely
pulled the rug from under them.
So they're back to square one.
Sam: Back to square one.
And, and look also all
the discussion of like.
Pay and like house ownership is like,
to me, that is a complete sideshow.
The one graph you need, it's a pie
chart of the wealth distribution,
not the income distribution.
The wealth distribution in
Australia today and in 1990.
It is very, very stark.
It's obvious that things are
not going to be the same.
Once you realize like the underlying
structure of the economy where that's at
all this other discussion of salaries and
stuff It's a sideshow because basically
Joe: doesn't change the fund what
Sam: that graph shows is the
middle class has disappeared
Joe: It doesn't change what I'm
saying to Ali though, which is that
If your dream is financial freedom,
and that's what Envy is teaching you,
it sounds like what you're saying.
I
Sam: know, it's purer than that.
I think it's freedom itself.
It's freedom from work.
Joe: Then even a job that paid you
10, 000 a year more would no, freedom
Sam: from selling your labour.
Well, yes, yes, freedom from selling my
Joe: labour.
It would be worth making a change.
But instead you want to
de alienate your label.
Oh no, since I was raised, the
system's now broken and there
is no other opportunities.
Oh, my position is
Sam: No, I'm not saying I'm going to
completely The system was broken already.
Yeah,
Joe: I'm not saying It's
learned helplessness.
Ali: No,
Joe: I completely disagree.
And you're an incredibly capable person,
so you could definitely have a better job.
Okay,
Sam: well, hold on.
I will agree with Joe to an extent.
I'll ask the question more pointedly.
We're not talking about your
contemporaries, we're talking about
people on social media who've achieved a
certain level of off gridness or whatever.
What is the useful message for Ali today?
What is the useful but garbled message?
Like the long term aspiration is
quite literal, but like what's
in between here and there?
And not just in terms of goal setting,
but like, what is that telling you
about your underlying values short of
having a small permaculture situation?
Well, yeah,
Ali: it's about, I suppose.
The small steps I can take to fill that
need and yeah, like there are certain
things that I have historically done,
which are like, I described in a previous
episode that I've obviously struggled
with because of the lack of energy.
So there's a frustration there.
So there's an envy there because of that.
Like why don't I have the, who
have this, yeah, or capacity
to do things that I can't do.
Like it's like.
Even like at the moment, I can't, like,
you know, obviously, you know, I've got
the shit back, things that I can't do, and
it's not a sense of helplessness, I cannot
go for the hike that I want to go for.
Sam: Yeah, it's true.
Ali: Not at the moment.
Not at the moment.
It's just not, you know, so there
is an envy for somebody for doing,
for people doing those things
that I simply cannot do right now.
It's not to say that it's forever, but
yeah, so like, so with these people,
with these, you know, permaculture
setups, it's not to say that.
I might not get to a place where, you
know, there, I could actually have that
or work towards that, but right now I'm,
I'm envious of it because I don't have it.
I had, like Sam said, I have to sell
my labor to a job I don't particularly
like, you know, for not enough money.
And you don't feel like you're
being especially effective in it?
No, yeah, it's just, it's
just, it's, you know.
Joe: What I'm saying is the only useful,
the only useful thing you can actually
do with this envy is get a better job.
Sam: I don't agree.
I think that
Joe: And you're capable of it.
But you don't, you never shift on that,
which is about 18 months or something.
I agree.
You say the job's dead end, the
job doesn't pay well, and then
you don't change anything and
you say, ah, the system, man.
Sam: She has untapped, she has
untapped career potential, but I don't
know if that's really what this is.
Ali: No, it's bigger than that.
Like, I mean, I could be in a
slightly better paying job, which
is a slightly more interesting,
but it's still, I don't feel like
that's actually the means to the end.
It's not going Not the, the
huge lottery win that I would,
you know, potentially need.
Joe: And that's the other useful
thing you could do is just buy a
lottery ticket each week with the
money you're saving from not smoking.
No, no.
But you, well, that's true.
It's better than doing nothing.
What I'm saying is don't do
nothing and say the system, man.
Ali: No, but I'm not saying,
I'm not saying that at all.
Sam: Like that's, that's not.
Well, you did a medication
review recently.
That's doing something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ali: There's certainly things
like small things I'm doing.
Well, yeah.
Like I feel like, yeah.
The.
The quitting smoking, like I said,
is financially driven, yeah, like
it's, it's financially driven.
And so, yeah, there, there are other
ways that I'm, you know, wanting to spend
my money or put towards or like long
term plans as well as immediate ones.
And so there are things I am doing.
I'm not saying I'm completely hopeless.
Joe: I just think it's, I just
think it's a really clear one.
It's good.
Like, you know, like
Sam's got a clear one.
He still wants more freedom
around gender and how he, how he
presents himself to the world.
And yeah, he wants maybe Tap back into
freedom he's had before in that area.
Yes.
That's awesome.
In your case, it's very clear as well.
Like, you want even more freedom.
You want freedom from wage slavery.
Awesome.
Alright.
Well, that's a garbled message
from your future self to
fucking do something about it.
And yeah, I'm not, I'm not saying,
I'm saying even buying a lottery
ticket is doing something about it.
I agree.
Do you know what I mean?
And what Alain de Botton is trying
to say is Do something about it.
Yeah, well he's
Sam: saying study it and find
something that's useful and
Joe: actionable.
Which I think is a good segue to mine.
Because
Sam: mine is Well, I
have one last question.
Yeah.
Is there something that's much,
like, smaller and that is like
a direct expression of like this
Because it's not just about having
the spread and like the permacolor.
I think There's something about it,
like when you were making sourdough and
stuff earlier, it's a feeling of self
reliance and like a feeling of, um,
productivity and usefulness and like
being able to, through your own effort,
produce something of value that is yours.
Yes.
And wage labour is not that.
Yeah.
Not at all, in my experience.
It's not at all.
It's, that's why Mark said workers
are alienated from their labor.
Yeah.
And ultimately from themselves
as Yeah, totally agree with that.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So could you grow tomatoes or something?
Is what I'm saying, like,
well, that, that was always,
Ali: I mean, you know, I could,
I mean, a WG needs nourishing.
Yeah.
I absolutely could.
And I should.
And like I said, I
historically, no shoulds.
No shoulds, you know, I,
Sam: yeah.
I'm wondering if there's
an actionable plan we can
Ali: make.
Yeah, there was, there was
definitely things, like I said,
I was doing, but you know, for a
variety of reasons that it's been.
You've cut
Sam: back, you've been in survival
Ali: mode for a
Joe: little while.
So all I'm saying is, I'm sorry that
you can't go for a bushwalk and I accept
that you can't with your fucked back.
That does suck.
But you can Put in a job application.
You can buy a lottery ticket.
So I'm not saying walk out
of here and do what I say.
I'm saying what the quote's
asking us to do is investigate.
If I say something on Instagram and
it fucking bugs me how envious I am.
Yeah,
Sam: I don't, I don't, I won't say this.
I don't get mad at influencers anymore.
Now I go,
Joe: I don't see it.
I mean, I don't say
Sam: I only, I only see ones that are
either saying something useful or doing
something useful or they're dancing
or entertaining me or something.
And now instead of being cross with
them now, I'm just like, that's awesome.
Ali: Yeah, I'm, I'm not, I
Sam: don't, I don't actually,
that, that part is great.
And when I see someone with the
farm though, Hmm, that does very
slightly annoy me, I must admit.
Ali: There's an annoyance that
I'm just, I'm not there yet.
It's not an annoyance at that person.
I'm like really happy for them.
They seem super smug and stuff.
Yeah.
Like I'm like, I've,
you know, good for them.
Like I don't feel, you know, it's,
it's, but it's, it's for myself that
I'm, I'm crossed with myself or like
there's a frustration with myself.
at that other person anymore.
Like, whereas that, I think that's
Joe: perhaps maybe envy about a previous
version of yourself where you had a
farm in the backyard and you had Nigella
writing to you about your backyard farm.
So you, I mean, that's another
thing you can do is like,
what was happening back then?
What's happening back then?
Meds wise, what's happening physically,
like relationship wise, what can I
recreate to get to the point where
my backyard looks like a farm again?
So, that's actually, apart from
the physical side of the gardening,
fairly actionable, but I don't
know if you can be envious of
your previous self, I'm not sure.
Yeah, no,
Ali: I definitely, like I said, I've sort
of grieved and mourned the loss of that
imagined life, or that life that I was
living, like it was very much a thing I
had to You know, move through and, you
know, and, and try and, yeah, reimagine
of what it's going to look like now.
And then there's, yeah, there's
obviously been some physical and
mental health challenges in the last
couple of years that have really
just, that's had to be the focus
rather than the, the extra stuff.
And like, and I'm just, yeah, it's,
it's an envy of like, why do I have
to keep thinking about like, yeah,
whether it's meds or therapy or, you
know, all the, you know, going to a
doctor's appointment and all that sort
of shit and prioritizing that shit
when I could have been, you know, like.
Yeah, I had the weekend to do the
thing that I actually wanted to do, it
was like go for a bushwalk and make a
Sam: sourdough.
And when we're full time, like, full
time, uh, well, between parenting, wage
work, and Taking care of your mental
health, it feels like, oh, God's,
Ali: yeah.
It doesn't feel like there's
a lot left in the tank.
That's everything.
Yeah.
Sam: Yeah.
That's ev and that's, oh, and then
maintaining the house for God's sake.
Yeah, exactly.
Joe: Yeah.
And having some sort of, so, Sam,
can I move on to mine or you look
like you're gonna read through.
I was just
Sam: gonna read one
line in the quote again.
Listening to Envy should help us
to take painful yet necessary steps
towards becoming who we really are.
This is actually beyond aspiration.
It's like this is telling us.
It's actually giving us urgent
information about our wellbeing and
like, it's like, okay, something's off.
It's not just like, Oh,
one day I'll have a farm.
It's an, Oh, great.
Instead of being envious of
that person, I now admire
their, their, their achievement.
That's a great step, but
painful yet necessary steps.
So that sounds more like.
That kind of fundamental work we've
been talking about of, of yeah,
confronting, going and getting the
diagnosis that's necessary, you know,
and doing, doing the hard stuff that
we've been avoiding, Anyway, yours.
Joe: I've been trying to throw
it to myself for 20 minutes.
I'll let you do it now.
When I was in my 20s, I had a
contemporary who was going to
the same parties and stuff.
Someone McKenzie.
Yeah, Nick McKenzie turned out to be the
most decorated investigative journalist.
in Australia.
Oh, that sucks.
And it was not envy as
far as I knew in my 20s.
It's only in hindsight.
It's like, well, why did I have so
much resentment towards this guy?
Oh, now you know.
And there was a time when I was making a
union film on one side and he was getting,
he was printing stories in the 80s.
Based on the anti union drops
from the anti union police guy.
He was, he was printing stuff
in the age that was anti union.
And I was making a pro union film.
So there's a very clear
reason to be enemies.
And I remember one time we run into
each other in a bar and argued about
this guy, Nigel Hadgkiss, who was
Whatever, former cop who is now
running the anti union, police force
that the Howard government set up.
Yeah.
And we had this, you know, whiskey
fueled argument about him and what
it all meant and, you know, like,
but I just never had So many things
that that person had, you know, like
I never had his level of ambition.
I'm sure I wasn't as smart as him.
He's on the other side of this wall.
My experience was that film came out, 600
people saw it at Acme or whatever it was.
Huge achievement.
And then my ambition just died off and I
went and started working in film crews.
Whereas his continued.
His, his He's unabated and has taken
him to the absolute peak of his trade,
with fame, wealth, you know, but there
was a point where we were both in bar
open and having an argument, almost
as equals, not equals, never equals.
I mean, by the time I was even
resenting this guy, he was
already incredibly successful.
It's just that his rise was
exponential and never stopped.
And the heights of my intellectual output
was making that one documentary and
then kind of just moving on and doing
no brainer jobs in the film industry.
Cut to like 20 years later or 15
years later, that's all I've done.
So, it wasn't until we did this project
and I was able to sit down with you
guys and actually use my brain again.
And suddenly a whole bunch of my thoughts
And it all just came out, and stuff that
had been on my mind, and stuff I was
really interested in, and people wrote in,
and they were listening, and, and it all
just was like this huge sigh of relief.
Yeah.
and you know, I saw Nick McKenzie
on, uh, friends Facebook page.
Sorry, yesterday I was having a nice
time down the beach and it's gone.
They're resentment's gone,
but it was very fierce.
And So the envy in that case was
trying to tell me that I had a
brain and I needed to use it.
Yeah.
but in hindsight like And that
Sam: you want to seek a degree
of profile, and that's okay.
Yeah.
Ali: Like, I was going to
say like a lot of that is.
External validation and adoration,
and things that I think Which clearly
Sam: isn't enough to sate
his appetite for more.
Yeah.
Or isn't the reason he's doing
Joe: it possibly.
Yeah, and the extent that I get it is
It's to post something on Instagram
or Facebook and have people like it.
Like, so I still do that and I
still want external validation.
But I've done a shit ton of internal work
in the 8 years I haven't been drinking.
And it's made a difference.
It's made a difference too.
Like, I now know, looking at Nick
McKenzie, the human being, that He, I
mean, some of the stuff he's done has
been, like, put him in danger, and, he's
done, he's not a perfect human, and I'm
sure there's times where he's unhappy or
unsatisfied or it hasn't Being wealthy and
famous and, looked up to hasn't probably
solved every emotional problem that
Sam: he's ever had.
Well, and a lot of journos are
very miserable anyway, even
Joe: the successful ones.
And that's the complexity that you
only get, I think, as you get older, is
like, not to say that it's not better
to be successful than not, because I
think, I'm sure it is, but it's not.
10 times better.
Sam: No.
No.
Agreed.
Ali: And, and, and like you said, success
actually comes with it's a whole new
set of issues that you wouldn't have
had otherwise, like, you know, whether
that's financial success or professional
success or whatever it is, like, then
there are issues with that as well.
Attracting envy.
Yeah, exactly.
And yeah, and when you, I think when
you're younger and you're just seeing
the one side of it, whereas when you,
Joe: like, now But see, in my 20s, I would
never have said I was envious of him.
I would have said I deeply
Sam: insulting if I He's a bad guy.
Joe: He's a, you know, right wing guy.
He's helping John Howard out.
Attacking, helping John Howard out.
Yeah, right?
Sam: He's obviously your
Joe: mortal enemy.
Yeah, wasn't that The fact that he's
better looking, smarter, more successful,
on more money, blah blah blah, no,
none of that matters to me when I'm 26.
He's just a hack.
For the Howard government and what he
writes is mostly inaccurate and Well,
Sam: it turns out helping the
rich is good for your career.
So, yeah.
Joe: But, like, now it's
just like It's Yeah.
He's been so wildly successful
that it's A lot of people do it for
Sam: free, Ali.
Yeah.
Joe: He's so wildly successful
that it's just easy.
I don't have to There's no
argument to have about whether
he is or isn't a good journalist.
The journalism industry has
decided he's the best investigative
journalist in the country.
Who said?
The Walkley Awards every single year.
Sam: Oh, a different person gets
Joe: it every Sure, but I don't want
to pick holes in it anymore, I just, I
don't even read the fucking age anymore,
Sam: who cares, I don't
watch Four Corners.
Let's just say he's the bee's
knees, but you don't care.
Yeah.
It's fine.
I don't care.
Joe: Oh, well I mean, I congratulate you.
Whereas back then it was like, not only
did I somehow in my mind or in an argument
with him have to pull him down to some
mild level, and it really bugged me.
Yeah, and it got to me and I hated him,
Sam: you know, I can
Joe: totally see all this and like if he
listened to that now He'd probably find it
ridiculous or I never would have noticed.
Yeah, he would yeah,
Ali: he never would
Joe: have been on the radar No,
no, even if he even remembered
who I am, you know what I mean?
So no, I think you'd be surprised but but
the difference is now is I'm saying it
and some people will hear me And that's
huge, hugely cathartic for me, so that
this conversation two years ago, before
we've done this podcast for a year and
a half, would have been like that envy.
That the garbled message calling
me towards my future self
had not ever been answered.
Ah, yeah.
But now I've laid down like a hundred
hours of my thoughts or whatever it is,
it's like ah, fuck, okay, it's all right.
It's all right.
Like to whatever level you had something
interesting to say, you said it.
And if even if it's only you kids that
go back and listen in 10 years time
or Whoever, you laid it out, just like
Nick had done from the age of 21 in
the age, he laid down his thoughts.
And people read them and said,
good thoughts, well done Nick.
No one had ever really done that for
me, from the end of that film screening.
For the next 15 years, you know, no
one ever said good thoughts, Joe.
Well, the most was like nice Facebook
post, you know, so the other garbled
message is sit down and write and blah,
blah, blah But I seem to completely
lack the discipline or probably the
talent to do that But in the end
with you guys, I found a medium and
suddenly that garbled message has
been answered In the affirmative.
Yeah.
And then I go and do my dead end film crew
job, and I did it yesterday for 15 hours.
I bloody loved it.
Didn't bother you, yeah.
Driving a bus around, full of extras.
I had a lot, because Yeah.
I remember one morning I was making coffee
on a film set, and Nick McKenzie run
past on his morning jog before he went
and was the top dog at the age all day.
G'day mate, how you going?
G'day Nick, how are ya?
And I, when I'm engaged in my
job like that I'm on decent
money, I'm feeling pretty good.
Yeah, yeah.
And that was probably a few years
ago now, and I realised even then,
ah, that bitterness is kinda gone.
but it was, that envy was brutal.
You know, and, but, uh, but it's
only envy and hindsight at the time.
It's just hatred, bitterness,
resentment, but to your friends,
they're like, Oh, dude, I know
exactly what you're so envious of that
Sam: guy.
Realizing it later.
Ali: Yeah.
Well, that's exactly like what I said
when I, yeah, when I was younger, it
was a perceived like, I don't, there's
something about that person I don't like.
It was just something I don't like about
them and whether now it's not, you know,
yeah, it's, I think you have to, like
you said, you move through it and it's
an, there's a wisdom and, you know, with
growing older, I think that, yeah, you,
you move past that, but it is ultimately,
yeah, you seeing something you can't quite
You haven't worked out that it is envy,
like I said, you haven't worked that,
that it's, that's actually what it is.
It just feels like a, an
uncomfortableness, like a
dislike or a hatred in your case
Sam: of this person.
Yeah.
And I guess Alain de Botton would
say, yeah, well, the discomfort is
pointing us to something and it's
like, well, you know, find out you do
a lot of this sort of stuff in therapy.
It's like people have the cliche of,
okay, tell me more about what does
that mean or tell me more about that.
It's, it's, I think a better question.
Work better for most people, I think, is
just like, okay, what's that pointing to?
It's like, okay, it's like, we're trying
to find our way through a confusing
network of signals here and we're trying
to navigate and yeah, what is this signal?
Okay.
I feel some antipathy towards this person.
What's that telling us?
Okay.
It might be envy.
What's the envy telling us?
Joe: the reflection and the wisdom only
came in once I put down the substances.
Unfortunately.
Because otherwise I could just be
drinking red wine and hate watching his
latest Four Corners special that he's
going to win another Walkley Award.
That's a sad image, yeah.
Right?
And like, fuck that guy.
Like, what's he even on about?
Blah, blah, blah.
And it's like, I could never do the
reflecting until I had to sit with
myself sober for fucking years.
Yeah, that's, that's it.
Yeah.
And also, yeah, he was mutual
friends with this different sort
of social group that I'm adjacent
to, and I like the rest of them.
And it's like, if they all
accept him He's probably alright.
He's probably fine.
I don't know, there is no character
assessment in anything I'm saying about
him as a person or him as a journalist.
I'm not trying to say
one way or the other.
Sam: I'm mad about the Howard thing.
Yeah.
I'm
Joe: not trying to say one
way or the other, um, it's
just to realise my part in it.
Sure.
And just be like.
No.
Bro.
You clearly, whether you did or not,
you felt like you had a brain to
use and something to say, but for
whatever fucking reason, you checked
out of the saying something business.
Sam: Oh, I mean, Joseph Campbell,
the call to adventure, you know.
I
Joe: checked out, I raised my kids, paid
a mortgage and whatever, but I, I, It made
Sam: me miserable.
Yeah, God yeah.
And then, and then there's a tendency in
that situation, unfortunately, to blame
it on the fact that you've got children or
Joe: a partner or whatever.
Yeah, but I still have an instinct to
check out again, like, I don't know when
I'm going to turn around and say to you
guys, I don't want to do this anymore.
Oh, I
Sam: expect you to do it at
any moment, but Sorry guys.
It's.
Yeah.
Things are better.
You're done.
I'm more enlightened now.
Yeah.
Well, I'm
Joe: not.
I'm not bothered in the
Sam: same way.
Well, you've announced
you've quit therapy.
That was a big one.
Yeah, like I
Joe: went back to my therapist after
Sam: three months.
Sorry.
I called it quitting accidentally
on purpose, I now realize.
Joe: But yeah.
I'll tell you, we should wrap it
up, but I'll tell you what happened.
Go on Ali.
Ali: Ali, what were you was going
to say, that's definitely, I think
a topic for like a whole podcast is
like, well, can you graduate therapy?
Well,
Joe: let's come back next week and do
that, but I'll, I'll, so there you go.
Sam, I'm committing to another
one, but I'll tell you briefly what
happened and then we'll wrap it up.
Oh, please.
What happened was I ran out of sessions,
government funded sessions, I couldn't
afford to go to therapy anymore.
I thought you were fine
Sam: with elbow taking
away the, uh, the extra 10.
Joe: I was, well, the story's going to
illustrate that, exactly that, and I
had three months off therapy, because I
couldn't afford it, and then I was going
to be busy with work, so I booked in a
session, new year started, going to get
my rebate, straight in, 3rd of January,
sitting down with my therapist, she's
like, so why did you want an appointment?
You haven't been for three months.
I was like, what do you mean?
Well, what are you doing here Joe?
Like I never wanted to stop going.
I was I just ran out of money.
Hmm.
Okay So what are you doing here now?
And I did as I can do a 20
minute monologue on everything
that was going on my life Yep.
Then she's like, okay,
Sam: still haven't heard
an answer to the question.
She's like, so,
Joe: okay, that's everything
that's going on in your life.
Um, what do you want?
What do you want me to say about it?
And I'm like, yeah, what do you need?
And then I did another 10 minute
monologue and then she's like, Hmm.
Okay.
Nothing.
Still giving me nothing.
And I'm like, this is fucking weird.
Like, How does this normally work?
But it, however it used to work,
it's not working like that anymore.
And I was half an hour
in, I checked my phone.
Oh.
Ooh.
I was like, woof.
And she knew exactly what she was doing.
Sam: Oh man.
Joe: Yeah, she cornered you.
And I was like, so, how about, what
are we going to do from now on and
going forward and, you know, um.
Maybe you could give me some, and
again, I just ran into a dead end
and I was, I ran out of words.
Like, when I, from whenever I
started talking, I was told as a
young, young kid, I'd never shut up.
And it's like, I talked non
stop to whoever would listen.
And it meant that less
Sam: I believe
Ali: it.
Joe: I can attest.
Sometimes, sometimes fewer and
fewer people were around me.
Yeah.
Because I just Wouldn't stop.
Yeah, like, wear them out.
And I've tried to always be
interesting, and she said that
to me across the three years.
Good at being interesting.
Like, I don't know how much I've gotten
to your emotional core, you've spent a
lot of time trying to be entertaining
and interesting for me, I don't really
know what you feel about anything,
it's always stayed in your head.
And I was like, oh, great.
That was a couple of sessions ago.
How often have you cried in therapy?
Never.
And this was
Sam: I don't do it every time,
Joe: but But this, yeah, and then the
other day, we got to the end of the 50
minutes and she's like I'm like, I don't
feel like I need to be here anymore.
She's like, I don't think you
do need to be here anymore, Joe.
And maybe have a think about
why you might want to be here.
I'll leave you with that.
Classic.
And in the weak sense, I can't think
of a reason why I want to be there.
I have nothing left to talk about.
Just habit.
Habit might be, yeah.
I did three years, you know.
I used to say to Ali, Ali said she
was having a break from her therapist.
I'm like, you can't do that.
It just goes on until they
retire or die or you die.
That's just how it is.
And I would have said three months
ago, If I could afford it, I'd
go twice a week, and I'd go twice
a week for the rest of my life.
But, you know, I've dug up the
main big stuff from my childhood.
I understand the stuff of
my parents a lot better.
I understand my relationship
stuff a lot better.
I understand how my fears and anxiety
works and that I need to look at how they
work rather than why I have them and that
that's enough to just get on with things.
I don't know how to be as bad as
happy as I'm ever going to be.
That's massive.
And it took three years of really hard
work, but maybe there is a natural end
point because all she ever was, was this
Blank kind of mirror with occasional
incredible level of wisdom, but basically
my psyche was reflected back to me Yeah,
until that it just was like cleaning
a screen or something and eventually
screens about as clear as it's gonna get.
Yeah Go live some life.
That's an interesting metaphor.
So this in the three months I
didn't go a whole bunch of shit got
rearranged I put new habits into place
every day and I just got clearer.
There's a great line.
From a Gillian Wells song, it's
every day is getting straighter.
That's how my life feels.
Time the revelator.
It's like every day it just gets a
little bit straighter and clearer.
Time the revelator.
Yeah.
And that took what it took.
It took a lot of fucking work.
yeah, so, but yeah, we can come back
and talk about, uh, talk further
Sam: about Ending therapy.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm in discussions
about doing it and have been
Joe: Oh, see, I thought you
were never gonna finish.
Well
Sam: No, well with the, with this
person, this person, I need to, the other
Joe: question it raises, which
I think is quite real is how
therapeutic have these sessions been?
Well, yeah,
Sam: that's, I mean, I think that's
Joe: going to talk about
it as therapeutic chats.
Yeah.
And mostly I just think it's just
talking shit with a couple of mates, but
Ali: actually, there's the added
pressure of like, Oh, wow, I've really.
Worked through something or I
like, geez, I really put it out
Sam: to the public.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well,
Joe: here's what we'll come back to Sam.
Yeah.
It's the best thing we've come up
with in this whole show and we'll
do a whole episode is the patient
needs to find their own medicine
and continually self administer
and I think that's what happened in
the last three months and I sort of
know where I found the medicine too.
Sam: Oh, I told you you had it.
that you were good at finding it.
I think,
Joe: yeah, I mean, yeah, I have
to stay on the narrow beam now.
Sam: Oh, but you're, you're quite, your
balance is very good, I think, overall.
I don't want to pump up your ego.
Joe: No, no, there's still plenty of
things, but I'm saying there's plenty of
things I have to do, but if I do those
things, every day is getting straighter.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that
every day is getting straighter.
Yeah, that's a good one.
And she doesn't mean heterosexual guys.
She just means working things out.
Yeah.
Ali: No, I definitely feel like that's
sort of, Like I was on that path, but
I just veered wildly off it for a bit.
But now I just feel like I can just,
I can see where I need to be going.
And it's just about taking those
little steps to get back to, to that.
Yeah.
Sam: Girl interrupted.
Yeah.
Joe: Yeah.
No, you've got a good energy today.
I reckon you're going to bounce back.
Yeah.
Sam: Great energy today.
Ali: Yeah.
No, like I said, I did say to Joe and
like, you know, apologies to the lot
that I just, I felt like I crawled
through those last couple of episodes.
I wasn't
Sam: myself.
But you showed, you showed an
adherence to duty, which is sometimes.
You know, necessary and admirable.
And, you know, and you didn't
Joe: grumble.
But no one wants to go back to
me and Sam talking about no self.
That's right.
Sam: And if you're ever, if you're
ever, if you're ever unwell and
can't do it, like, you know, too bad.
We're just, you know, yeah.
Well, so that's where
Ali: that work ethic is there.
It is there.
Like I just, I doubt
myself, but it is there.
I've seen
Sam: it.
Yeah.
Joe: Well, yeah.
Let's create some envy in
the podcast world towards us.
Sam: I think we have a little.
Joe: I'd love to do that.
I can't wait to get that message from
Nick McKenzie, like, man, I wish I
had what you had in the pod sphere.
Yeah, nice pod.
Reminds me of my first eight
Four Corners episodes I hosted.
Sam: And you know what's
annoying about Nick McKenzie?
That he would never flex on you like that.
No, he'd be really nice.
He's too good of a
Joe: guy.
He'd be really nice and be
like, is this condescending
that he listened to the show?
Yeah.
Sam: Has he, did he
throw me a pity listen?
Fuck you, Nick.
Yeah.
I take it all back.
I'm still mad at you.
Yeah, yeah,
Joe: yeah, yeah.
Sam: All right.
See you guys.
See ya.
See ya.