037 | Building English Whisky as a New Category Bottom-up | Part 1/2 with Daniel Szor, Founder of the Cotswolds Distillery (UK)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 037, I had the honor of chatting with Daniel Szor, Founder of the Cotswolds Distillery. He has an incredible story as he left his 30-year Investment Management career in NYC, Paris, and London behind to build one of the first English Whisky Distilleries. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Time Stamps

(0:00) Introduction

(1:14) Building Demand & Background

(8:02) Why England?

(12:52) Developing English Whisky

(19:49) Whisky Innovation

(25:58) Distilling Brand Messaging Down

(32:09) Getting Your Foot In The Door

(36:33) The Beauty of Off-trade

About the Host: Chris Maffeo

About the Guest: Daniel Szor

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Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Daniel Szor

Founder | Cotswolds Distillery

What is MAFFEO DRINKS Leadership Insights?

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For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

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Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host Chris Maffeo.
In episode 37 I had the honor of

chatting with Daniel Shore,
founder of The Cost Was

Distillery.
He has an incredible story as he

left his 30 year investment
management career in New York

City, Paris and London behind to
build one of the first English

whiskey distilleries.
I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Hi, Daniel, how you doing?
I'm doing great, thanks.

Where are you today?
So I'm in a hotel room in

Liverpool.
We discuss very often about you

being on the road and listening
to the podcast.

I guess that this is one of
those days driving around.

Absolutely.
It's the first couple of

podcasts of yours I heard were
on the road.

I'm here to meet a few friends
with whom we sort of have a

little external board that that
meets every quarter.

And I would used to be able to
say, I would have been able to

say to you that I have 1000 of
my barrels down the street from

where I'm sitting right now
because that's where we stored

our whiskey.
Initially it was in Liverpool,

but we've actually moved all of
those barrels, 1000 barrels over

a couple of years and moved them
back down to the Cotswold.

So all of our whiskey is sitting
now, aging in barns close to the

distillery.
OK, OK, that's a nice link.

So let's start because I want to
know a lot of things about about

you and the Cotswold Distillery.
So you listen to the podcast, so

you know some of my passion,
passion topics, passion points,

you know, it's this building
demand.

So every time I'm in a meeting
with professionals, it's always

like let's build brand
awareness.

We need to build brand
awareness.

And I'm really, really getting
allergic to that building

awareness because it's 20 years
that I listened to that.

And for me it means nothing
because you can be aware of

anything, but you know,
ultimately if you don't want to

consider buying and buying it,
it, it doesn't move anything.

So what's your take on that?
Like how do you build demand for

for a brand in your opinion?
I think the first step is to

realize that that's the business
that you're in, which is that

you're a brand.
I mean, I now I'm described all

the time.
I've started to describe myself

as a brand owner, but in the
beginning I wouldn't have even

known what that meant because I
didn't know what a brand really

was.
I came from a career which was

30 years on, sort of on Wall
Street, as we say in the States

or in the city as the Brits say.
I worked in New York and Paris

and London, and I started this
distillery and this brand

because I was a whiskey lover.
I was a whiskey geek.

I basically in my, you know,
spare time, particularly when I

was living in Paris, I fell in
love with whiskey.

And I kind of and the French are
big whiskey lovers, very serious

about whiskey.
And I spent time at Le Maison de

Whiskey in their beautiful shop
in the eighth around East Mall

as a member of their club and we
would geek out once a month and

taste whiskeys.
And then I had a friend who I

did this with and we drove to
Scotland once a year and flew to

Scotland rather to to have a
boys trip and go run around

distilleries.
And I fell in love with the

thing and the place and the
people and my idea in setting

this up was as simple as, you
know I could do that.

Why can't I do that?
I, I, I, I now I have a home and

a beautiful place which is every
bit as beautiful as Scotland.

And I had a model which was 1
distillery in particular which

was Brooke Laddie where I had
was a cask owner.

And so I followed their story
which was a marketing story but

again this whole time didn't
realize it was all about the

brand.
I thought it was all about the

whiskey.
I thought if you build a

distillery and you make good
whiskey in a beautiful part of

the world, that's all you need.
But in fact over the years I've

come to learn that it's very
much about the brand and what

the brand represents and and and
building brand awareness as you

say.
If I remember right, I mean you

started with with gin before
whiskey, is that correct?

We did.
But this is a popular myth.

I get lots of people that come
up to me and they say you were

so smart, that kind of it
almost.

People make it sound like a bait
and switch.

Like, you know, you you gave
them gin and then you took the

gin away and you gave them
whiskey as soon as your whiskey

was ready.
And my response to that is

always I wish I was that smart
as to have had that idea.

But I didn't.
I mean, it's had nothing to do

with it.
I wanted to build a whiskey

distillery.
My my idea for whiskey came

from, and this is really true
story, summer of 2012.

It was July 2012.
I live in a very isolated

farmhouse surrounded by a farm I
don't do not own.

But I look at what they plant
and I sort of live by their

seasons, you know, and by their
rotation of crops.

And in the summer of 2012, they
happened to be planting malting

barley.
And it was a beautiful Sunday

afternoon after a nice lunch
with probably a little bit too

much wine, and you get all kind
of romantic and wistful.

And I'm looking out at this
beautiful field of barley, which

is already high and, you know,
sort of rippling with the breeze

going through it.
It's a sunny day.

And I suddenly had this thought
and I thought that they grow a

lot of barley here.
And there's also 35,000,000

visitors a year that come to the
Cotswolds.

Maybe we could build a whiskey
distillery.

And this idea came to me because
of my knowledge of the, well,

Scotland in general, but also
Brooke Laddie.

And the fact that Brooke Laddie
was one of the first to really

focus the brand around sort of a
sense of place, you know,

terroir to the point where they
actually came out with one of

their whiskeys, was made with
Isla Barley.

They brought barley farming to
Isla.

I said I don't have to bring
barley farming to the Cotswold.

It's been there forever.
And so that's kind of where it

came from.
And that was my whole journey.

It was learning about whiskey
making, it was finding some

amazing Scottish mentors who
between the two of them had 100

years of whiskey making
experience.

Because I had no idea how to
make whiskey.

But they they taught me and they
they taught us, our small team,

in a way that we could have
never known ourselves.

I mean there was a big shortcut
there just because of the

transfer of knowledge.
So we had great kit which which

we which we managed to buy.
We had great mentors, We had a

great team and it was all about
whiskey.

But with the money that I I
didn't have leftover.

I scraped together a little bit
and I bought a nice little 500

liter Holstein still, which I
put in the corner and I said

this is going to let me play,
this is going to let me do all

the stuff that isn't whiskey.
And I wanted to just make

everything.
I wanted to make spirits from

fruits, you know, local fruit to
sort of the schnapps kind of

thing, the the the cherry and
the apple and pear etcetera, and

gin as well.
But the idea behind the gin was

just, you know, we had this
visitor center.

It was tiny and we now have a
beautiful new visitor center

because from the beginning we
had no idea whether people would

show up, but we had a couple of
shelves and I thought it's a

pity to have their shelves have
nothing on them for three years

while the whiskey is aging.
So we started making a little

bit of gin thinking you know
we'll probably run that.

Still we do a single shot
distillation which is very sort

of time intensive and doesn't
doesn't yield as much as the

traditional multi shot way of
making gin, but it makes great

gin.
It still makes a couple 100

bottles and in a in a run and I
thought we'll use that two or

three times every month.
Maybe by 2016 we are running

that still twice a day, 14 hours
a day, seven days a week and we

realized something's got to get.
We've either got to lean into

this.
We've got to decide that we are

also gin as well as whiskey
because the product that we were

working even harder on every day
wasn't seen.

It was just going into a
warehouse.

But everybody got to know us for
the gin because the gin was

fantastic and people were
calling it the Cotswolds Gin

Disorder.
And here I am pouring my savings

into whiskey, the into barrels
which are just sitting in a

warehouse.
So we decided that we were going

to adopt sort of what they call
a House of strategy, you know,

where basically we weren't just
one spirit, we were multiple

spirits and we've even been
making a bit of rum lately.

But whiskey is clearly front and
center.

That what we're about.
But you know, they do.

As, as the joke goes, they do
become like your kids and you

love them all equally.
And we love our gin too.

But we are resolutely about
whiskey, English whiskey.

That's a great clarification.
I'll make a a snippet of this

and you can use it with all the
with all the people that that

ask you that question.
And while you were talking, I

couldn't help thinking listening
to your American accent and

talking about Scotland and
Scotch whiskey and English

whiskey.
Now what drove you to to make

that decision?
I mean, you mentioned in a way,

but like how, how did you decide
to do it in England?

I have been in this country for
17 years.

I have a passport, but I cannot
get rid of the American accent.

So I mean, that's just, I'm, I'm
stuck with that.

But I'm, I'm very proud.
And I've also got a French and

an American passport a British
passport and I feel very close

to those three countries because
I've lived in all three of them.

I got started right out of
college as we call it in the

States uni and a job in Wall
Street that I sort of fell into

with a a startup company in in
foreign exchange trading.

I didn't think that I was going
to be in it for 30 years but I

was and they were very nice
bunch of folks who allowed me to

do a lot of really fun things
and and indulgent a number of

passions.
One of them was my Francophilia

and the the desire to go and
live in France.

And I set up an office for them
in France and ran that office

for 11 years and it was
wonderful.

And then when we started
becoming more of a hedge fund, I

guess you could say it made
sense.

We really needed to be in the
UK.

We needed to be in London.
That's where that whole business

was.
So we closed the Paris office.

We moved to London and my wife
and I were in London and working

very hard.
She's a doctor, she's a

neurologist.
And so very different careers,

Ships in the night, not seeing
one another a lot.

We had a young daughter.
And then in 2009, my wife was

taken ill and had a few very
difficult years.

And it was actually while she
was undergoing a pretty big

operation that I sat there and
just thought, you know, feeling

very powerless about what I
could do to make life sort of

better for us as a family.
And so, you know, sort of, you

suddenly realize how how short
your time is and what can

happen.
And when the anesthesia wore

off, she looked at me.
I said, we're buying a country

house.
She said, what?

I said, you know, we, we work
too hard.

We run around.
We need some time to just be

together and to enjoy time
together and to be together as a

family.
And we both love the Cotswolds,

which is about an hour and a
half West of London.

And we bought this completely
impractical but very romantic

farmhouse in the middle of a
field that you can't see anyone

with, never intending for it to
be more than just a weekend

home.
Because we, she grew up in

London.
She's British.

I grew up in New York City.
We're both city kids as as we

used to call ourselves.
And and the country is what you

do on Saturday and Sunday.
It's not where you live.

Nobody lives in the country,
right?

But actually we found out that a
lot of people live in the

country and they're wonderful
people.

And we met tons of great folks.
And so we started really

thinking about why are we
packing up every Sunday night

and going back into the city to
live in this little flat when we

have this really beautiful place
with these views out over the

fields.
So it was really almost the

distillery was almost an excuse
really, especially as I saw

things becoming more difficult
for my firm, the firm I worked

for and and worrying that it
wasn't going to survive.

And the industry that I was in
was was really hit hard after

the financial crisis.
So I had to kind of open myself

up a little bit.
I actually went to a career

coach for six months to just
talk.

I sort of described it as being,
you know, deprogrammed.

Like if you've been in a cult,
you do one thing for long enough

and you feel like there's
nothing else you can do.

And through the this kind of
introspection, I suddenly

thought, well, there's a lot of
things I could do.

And that's when the whiskey
epiphany, the barley moment hit

me when.
And so why?

Why England and why the
Cotswolds?

It was basically because we had
a home there and because I

understood what this region was
about and it was it, it it's

it's an artificially beautiful
place.

It's almost surreal because, you
know, it's only 70 miles from

London.
By all rights, it should be a

suburb, but it's been protected
for years and years and years.

So it's still like authentically
19th century.

It's, you know, rolling fields
and little villages and quiet

lanes and an hour and a half
from London and you can be in

this.
And so this kind of intense

beauty was basically what the
these guys who I kind of

followed on Brooke Laddie we're
really using as the backbone of

selling the Brooke Laddie story
that it's it's not just about

the whiskey, it's about the
place and it's about the people

who make it.
And so this is what I wanted to

build the the brand around, even
though I didn't know I was

building a brand.
Wow.

That's an incredible story.
Like what you what you just

mentioned and and and so like
you said previous I mean you

were you are and you wear a
whiskey geek.

So talking about the liquid,
what did you want to bring into

your own brand distillery and on
products you know, knowing I

mean your American background.
So probably you are familiar

with with all the American
whiskey knowing Scotch whiskey,

so how did you develop the
English whiskey because there

wasn't such thing as English
whiskey in in a widespread mind

of consumer.
Right.

Not at all.
But you know I came out of it

feeling and in fact I didn't.
I I've only, I think I got to

know American whiskey during
COVID because I had a lot of

time on my hands and so I just
decided I was really going to go

deep in bourbon and Amazon you
know thankfully in the UK will

deliver anything you you ask
them for.

And I suddenly found myself
ordering a ton of and like

everybody the bar grew
ridiculously during during COVID

because there was a lot of
exploration going on.

But it was single malt was what
I first knew and then as I got

into whiskey while I was living
in France.

But I never was particularly
spirits guy until one day,

January 2001, I got invited to a
Scotch malt whiskey society

tasting at a hotel in Paris like
across from my office.

And I, I went across the street
and I went in this room of

strange guys and they started
breaking out all of this single

cask cast strength whiskey.
And I was completely blown away

by how amazing it was, not only
how amazing it was, but how

different from cast to cast and
region to region and style to

style.
And I thought, gosh, the Scots

have figured one out on the
French.

They've out terroir.
The French, I mean, and you

know, the French are all about
terroir.

And here was this whiskey, which
was just fantastic.

And that's when I fall in love
with whiskey.

But I would say, to get back to
your question, I don't think

it's about regions.
I don't even think it's about

country.
I think it's about good whiskey

and not good whiskey.
For good whiskey and less good

whiskey and I knew what I liked
and in my sort of in the due

diligence before throwing my
life savings into this thing.

I ran around in the States where
the craft distilling business

was going.
I mean I I thought this whole

idea was nuts and I just kind of
put it out of my mind.

And then one day in April of
2013, I was back in New York

visiting family.
And I went to a whiskey Live and

Chelsea Piers in New York.
And I walked in the room with my

little glass and I looked around
and half of the stands were

whiskey brands I'd never heard
of.

They weren't from Scotland, they
weren't from Ireland, They

weren't from Kentucky.
They were from like Oregon and

Washington and Massachusetts and
Maine.

And and I said, what is this?
And that's when I suddenly

realized how big craft
distilling had become in the

States.
And it hadn't yet really done

that in the UK.
And then all of a sudden, that

idea that I'd had eight months
ago looking at the barley kind

of came alive again.
I thought if other people are

doing this, maybe maybe I could,
maybe we could and and that's

kind of how how this all
happened.

But then I went around and
visited a lot of those

distilleries and I became sort
of more involved in the craft

scene in the US.
And if I'm honest like there was

a lot of whiskey and there were
a lot of distilleries I visited

that were really interesting and
really compelling from a sort of

a marketing standpoint.
Some romantic, some guy who had

a an idea or or whoever and the
liquid just didn't do it for me.

In fact there were I remember a
lot of the stories where you

weren't even allowed by law to
taste at the distillery.

They didn't have a license.
So I would like leave the

distillery and I would run off
to some off license.

I would buy a bottle and I
would, I wouldn't even take my

coat off.
I would like open the thing just

when I got home and try some and
just go no, no, no, no, no.

And it would go on the back of
the shelf.

The main principle on certain
necessary was I need to make a

whiskey that I would actually
want to drink.

You know, with with no one
around, with no hype in the

privacy of my own home.
That I would actually like this

whiskey and I need to make it in
a distillery that I would want

to visit.
Because that's what got me into

whiskey was visiting all these
distilleries and these

compelling stories and these
beautiful places and these great

people.
And so I would say that that's

what I'm most proud of.
Now that we've created, we have

created a whiskey that I want to
and do drink and love myself

with a flavor profile that
really works for me and I think

for others.
Now I'm, I'm happy to be able to

say in a really beautiful
distillery that gets 100,000

visitors a year.
We were recently voted most

popular whiskey distillery in UK
and Ireland and that includes

Scotland and that was based on
the number of TripAdvisor

reviews and Google ratings and
social media metrics.

And I never expected that.
It was completely surprised when

it came out, but I said to my
wife, if I die tomorrow, put

that on the tombstone because
that is, that is what I I didn't

know about the brand building, I
didn't know about the on trade,

I didn't know about how it's
scaling, all these things that

we're now dealing with.
I just wanted to make a whiskey

I would drink in a distillery
I'd want to visit.

That's crazy.
And I mean, it's, it's

incredible.
And you were one of the of the

first movers in the English
whiskey movement.

And you, if I understood
correctly, you were one of the

first people of the English
Whiskey Guild, you know, to

bring in people together.
Is that correct?

It is correct.
But when I started this, I had

no idea that that there would
be.

I mean, we were the 4th
distillery in England ever to

make whiskey.
There are now 49 distilleries in

England making whiskey.
Who would have thought?

I mean, I was telling you before
that this day after tomorrow in

Birmingham there's the English
Whiskey Festival with 30W brands

exhibiting like a little mini
whiskey live but with only

English whiskey.
And last year was the first of

those.
And I remember getting in the

car with my wife to drive up
there to get on our stand and

saying would you ever believe 10
years ago that we would be

driving up to an English whiskey
festival?

And the vibe and the energy and
the the passion that was there

just completely blew me away.
So this is all this is like a

bonus for me because when I had
this idea, I didn't think of

being English whiskey.
I I guess I thought a little bit

about being Cotswolds whiskey,
which is kind of a funny idea

because we were the first ever
to make whiskey in the Cotswolds

and so that wasn't a thing.
I guess I felt that I was part

of this also fascinating and
great movement called New World

Whiskey.
So this idea of whiskey that's

not made in Scotland or Ireland
or Kentucky or, you know, the

States, but that's made in
places you wouldn't have

expected.
Of course, the best known of

that Japanese whiskey, which is
now almost an established

category, even though, you know,
they've been at it for 100

years, people didn't really know
about that until 10 years ago.

But now it's, you know,
considered almost a traditional

whiskey making category.
But you know, French whiskey,

Danish whiskey, Australian
whiskey, New Zealand whiskey.

I mean, it's now from all over
and I feel a great kinship with

these folks who are doing battle
in a friendly way because we all

love our friends in Scotland and
we love Scotch whiskey.

And it's it's, it's created a a
thing, whiskey, single malt

whiskey in particular, that we
all sort of appreciate and kind

of emulate.
But but we also are kind of

challengers.
We're outsiders.

And this is very interesting.
I mean what what you're saying

because if I take my, let's say,
history lover, hats off,

ultimately somebody invented
those denominations.

You know, they, they, they were
in a way artificially created.

Now, if you take champagne, if
you say cognac, if you say I

mean Scotch, Irish whiskey, you
know all these categories with

all due respect, but they are
they were created for a, you

know, hundreds of years of, you
know, ape, laciondo, Gene

controle or DOCG in Italy or
whatever.

But you know, nobody said that
you cannot do it elsewhere.

And this is the what the World
Whiskey movement actually did.

They took off the lead of these.
And we have a, we have a very,

we have a very interesting model
of history to look back on,

which is about 50 years old now.
And that's New World wine,

right?
Because, you know, there was a

very famous, I don't know if you
heard of the The Judgment of

Paris in 1976.
I believe it was the they made a

wonderful movie called Bottle
Shock with Remember Who it was,

But very good, very entertaining
movie about this moment where a

a British sommelier in Paris
went to visit Napa when Napa was

completely unknown.
And realized that these guys

were making some really good
wine.

And brought back a bunch of
bottles in his luggage and

entered them in one of the most
prestigious tasting competitions

in Paris of sommeliers.
And to their shock and horror,

they had voted California wine
and I think the first, second

and third place.
And that the whole growth of New

World wine, you know, wines from
Australia, from South Africa,

from South America sort of comes
back a little bit to that

moment.
Realizing that there's great

wines being made elsewhere and
they're perhaps a little bit

less traditional.
They're a little bit less

wrapped up in their own rules,
in their own epilacio, et

cetera.
There may be a little bit less

structured.
You could almost say they're not

your parents wine.
The new generation was looking

for something to call their own,
was looking for something that

represented more kind of their
values.

And I feel very strongly that
whiskey is at that inflection

point as well.
When the, you know, the

wonderful work that was done in
Scotland that was done in in it

is done in Scotland and Ireland
and Kentucky to create these

superpowers, it's wonderful.
However, to love whiskey, do you

need to love all of the Scottish
tropes and whatever, I mean, do

you need to, you know, in other
words, you can.

You can find values if that's
what you know you're into.

If, if you sort of identify with
a brand or a type of a spirit

because of how it's made, if
you're that sort of, you know

who makes it or whatever, you
can find amazing stories now all

over the world.
I mean one of them that I found

before I had even started.
The distillery was in a whiskey

made in Taiwan called Kavalan,
which was similarly disruptive

because this was in Taiwan known
to be whiskey lovers but not

whiskey makers.
But this was a very well off

family.
They decided that they wanted to

make whiskey in Taiwan and they
made an amazing whiskey which

won great awards including
world's Best Single Malt for a

four year old whiskey from
Taiwan.

And I used to.
I loved that whiskey.

I loved its flavor, I loved its
taste and I loved what it

represented.
I would love, I loved giving it

to my friends blind and saying
guess where this comes from.

And they said, well that's
clearly a 15 to 20 year old

Sherry bomb or something like
that.

It's four years old.
It's made in Taiwan and and

that's the same kind of thing
that I think to some extent

people do with us.
People who like it will tell

their friends and show their
friends.

People like passing on a, you
know if you've seen a good movie

or been to a good restaurant you
tell your friends because you

there's that joy in letting them
in on your little secret kind

of.
And I think we are still at that

level.
You know we're still the little

secret that people who come to
see us have have seen with their

own eyes.
And so a lot of it is word of

mouth and a lot of it is you
know getting and and that comes

full circle back to brand
awareness.

I know you're very much for
building brands one bottle at a

time and then we are very much
for building brand awareness,

you know, one customer at a
time.

We've now done the first ever
advertising campaign that we've

done for our whiskey, and we've
tried to encapsulate into one

image everything that we think
our whiskey represents.

Because, you know, if I go on to
you for half an hour about the

every little artisanal thing and
bit of geekery that we do, you

know you'll probably forget by
the end of it what I said in the

beginning.
And most, most people will do

even the most ardent whiskey.
These are all but the most

ardent whiskey geeks.
But how do you what I've

realized, I think what I've
learned in my 10 years, is that

you do have to boil it.
You have to distill it down, no

pun intended to a message.
And if we are disruptive, if we

are not like your dad's whiskey,
if we are English, not Scottish,

how do you show that?
And I thought about the

traditional image of whiskey
advertising.

You know, you get some old guy
in a tweed jacket and a leather

armchair in front of a fireplace
with a crystal glass, right?

And I thought, well, what's the
kind of person I think of as a

Cotswolds drinker?
And first of all, it's not

necessarily a guy.
It could be a girl, too, because

whiskey is now very much enjoyed
by women as well.

It's not indoors.
It's going to be outdoors.

It's not going to be a
fireplace.

It's going to be a fire pit.
It's going to be a bunch of guys

around a fire pit.
They're not going to be wearing

tweed jackets.
They can be wearing jeans and

jumpers and moccasins and
they're going to not have a

fancy glass.
And and it's more about that

sort of inclusiveness,
unstructured enjoyment of

something that's real, I guess,
is how I sort of think about it.

And that's very much what the
Cotswolds, and I hope one day

you come up and pay us a visit,
represents.

It's just a beautiful place
where if you live in London, if

you live in Birmingham, you're
an hour, hour and a half away

and you come out and you go
walking and you, you know, go

sit around a fire pit and have a
nice whiskey.

That was that's that's the
occasion.

You, you anticipated a question
that I had in mind because you

spoke about the liquid.
So like the liquid before the

brand, you know, first of all
you wanted to create something

that you could drink and that,
you know, you thought that you

know people would enjoy and and
then like the occasion.

So what is what is the actual,
what what I usually call the

target occasion.
So it's it's not that people

cannot drink in on the fire in
the fireplace, you know and on

the sofa on the indoor.
But when you think about it then

you know like you think about it
that way because probably like

even the taste profile helps
that kind of moment.

People drinking outside in a in
a younger kind of like setting a

more relaxed more informal kind
of setting.

You you mention about a
distilling that story down to a

simple message.
Now when you or you know people

of your team, explain that to
consumers, to bar owners, bar

managers and so on.
And how?

How?
What do you use to explain that?

There is no right message.
It's a message that you feel

comfortable with and but since I
tend to hire folks who I can

relate to, they tend to have
messages which are kind of very,

very similar.
And it all comes down to the

reality of things.
It's not pretense, it's not

artifice, it's not snobbism,
whatever.

Take for example, you know we
have now 9 whiskeys in our

range, of which six are core and
three are limited editions which

change all the time.
Like we have two that change

yearly and one that's a single
cast program.

But the six cores, they're all
wonderful.

It was very important for me to
create a good strong core range

that was always there, always
available.

I felt that lots of distilleries
either because they didn't have

enough liquid in stock to ensure
the continuity of a core range

or maybe because they thought
they could get better money for

things that were limited edition
would come out with limited

edition up to limited edition to
limited edition.

The problem I I had was that by
the the 3rd or 4th limit edition

you have you don't kind of know
what they're about what they

stand for what what is really
representing them.

So I from the first whiskey that
came out which I pre sold before

I even owned stills by the way
online.

I mean I was I needed the money
you know to while we were just

selling, while we were aging, we
were pre selling this and when

it came out it was and is the
same whiskey that we now have

today that's called Signature
which is the flagship of our

range, the the core of who we
are, the one that most

represents us and the lowest
price of our whiskeys.

I mean it's still a premium
product.

It's a 45 LB whiskey but for
what it is and the work that

goes into it, it's incredible.
And I think mostly what you get

out of the glass, the flavor,
it's incredible value.

So you know saying what is your
whiskey and what do you tell

people about.
I always start with Signature

and the way that I usually kick
it off is saying that, you know,

we've done with all our limited
edition single cast, I don't

know how many things we've come
out with, probably 30W sort of

over time.
And I've got all of them on that

shelf that grew a lot bigger in
COVID in my living room.

But I only have one in my
kitchen on the counter, which is

usually half empty.
And that's Signature because

that's the go to.
That's the one that you know the

end of a hard day.
If you just want a little bit of

whiskey, you will want to flavor
a little bit of what the late

Michael Jackson, the whiskey
critic used to call the

contemplative DRAM.
I'll drink the signature because

it's had an ABV that immediately
sort of manageable 46 ABV.

That's as low as we go, but it's
not one of our sort of big cast

rank 5859% sort of ABV's.
We have things that are much

more intense in different
flavors that explore different

woods.
So we have a bourbon cast which

is 100% bourbon cast and we have
a peated cast which is 100%

which is coming from peated Cask
and an X red wine cast.

But the the signature is it's
it's a mix of two casks, red

wine and bourbon and it's just,
it's just delicious.

And actually one of our non
execs is a guy who helped build

the McAllen brand over 20 years.
So certainly knows a thing or

two about describing whiskey and
sort of representing it.

He came up with one word which
was deliciousness and so that's

kind of how I would basically go
out to a bar.

I'd say we trade in
deliciousness and most of our

customers buy both our gin and
our whiskey.

They love them both.
And why is that?

Because they're both delicious,
that that that's what they have

in common.
And I know probably everybody

would say that, but I wanted to
put the Cotswolds in a glass.

I wanted to show this beauty in
a liquid.

I had no idea how to do it, but
luckily I had an amazing pair of

Scots and some incredibly
diligent distillers who sort of

followed the process that we
created.

That and I again, as I said, I
could go on forever about, you

know, the choice of wood, the
long fermentation to different

kinds of yeast.
We even use a sort of a French

technique called marriage where
we actually will intermingle

whiskeys and, you know, the cask
management aspect of it.

But it all comes down to forget
about all that.

It's just delicious and it's
more delicious than you would

expect, you know, whiskey at its
price point to be.

It's more delicious than any
other whiskey that would come

out of Scotland, to my
knowledge, at that price point.

I mean there's a few that blind
taste tasting I put at the same

level, but it's just it's
surprising.

And the thing that's the most
surprising is it's three years

old and you know this whole arms
race about the bigger the number

on the label the better it's
going to be.

I mean that's just one of many
myths which we try and dispel

because it's not about the
number, it's about how it

tastes.
Most of our work is very much

done with you know in the on
trade is done with tasting, with

explaining the story, telling
the story and then we'll talk

about the usual things in terms
of serve and different things

you can do with it etcetera.
I spoke to my you know on trade

guys and I said you know what,
what's the messaging.

If you were on this thing, what
would you really like to say

about the relationships that
you've built in the On trade and

they basically said that it's
really all about trust,

persistence and delivery.
That's that's that's a great

trio to to to work with.
Do you have like a specific

range that you that you go I
mean like you talk about you

know this SKU that you know like
the that's the flagship for you

the signature.
But do you go, do you go there

like with dad as the foot in the
door in the on trade for for

listing or do you go with the
with the wider portfolio with

the with the six range how do
you usually like how how did you

start like because probably like
you developed that through.

We didn't have any sales guys in
the beginning.

So like I was a sales guy and we
had the we had gin, we didn't

have whiskey in the beginning.
I remember once I had a tire

that was kind of flat in my car,
and I need to get it fixed in a

neighboring village, Chipping
Norton and I had an hour while

they're working on it.
I said, well, I got a couple of

bottles of gin, Why don't I go
walk around the pubs and

Chipping Norton.
And I was blown away by the

reception because, you know, I
worked for 30 years selling a

very complex product which
nobody really wanted.

And now I'm selling a relatively
straightforward product that

kind of everybody wants in that
they want the category.

They're not always going to buy
what you are selling, but

they're willing to listen.
So it's not it.

I didn't for me feel hard to go
in and and make an initial sale.

I think I made three sales when
my tire was getting fixed.

But of course that's just a
bottle.

And again as you said, it's not
just about selling a bottle,

it's about selling the 2nd 1/3
about.

And when we finally, you know,
we're able to start hiring

salespeople and brand
ambassadors, they have taken

this to a completely different
level where they're putting the

time and they're putting the
effort in.

We're starting to realize just
how hard it you know it is

sometimes the headwinds the fact
that everybody is out there and

the competition has gotten
greater but the results that

they that they have had have
been fantastic and and I've now

decided that last year I, I
hired ACEO because I and I I

think one of your guys was
trying to think of who it was.

It was Paul from Few who made a
comment in your podcast about

trying to fire yourself from
every role you can get fired

from except for that one that
you can't be fired for, which is

being the crazy guy who started
the brand.

And that's kind of what I've
done.

I've fired myself and everything
except being the crazy guy who

started the brand.
And I think actually on hearing

that, I thought to myself, I
need to work harder at this and

I need to basically go out and
be that guy and make those

calls.
And so I went back and I said to

all the sales guys and I'm in
the company, that I was going to

spend 100 days in trade before
next summer.

And I made this kind of pledge.
It's a round Number.

I could remember it and I don't
know what day I'm up to now, but

I've been going out a lot next
week I'm out on the road 3 days,

just going to the bars and
stuff.

And so just to answer your
question about what I come out,

what we come out with when we do
a tasting.

Because admittedly there was
probably a hiatus of a few years

where I hadn't really watched
the guys in action, really in a

cold call, in a first call.
But I'm, I'm thinking to one

that we, we did recently at a
really top top, top 20 bar in

London with Katie our our, our
newest sort of brand ambassador.

It was at a bar in Soho and the
team were very nice.

They all came in early, you
know, for them.

So we were in there sort of
early afternoon and we did a

tasting and basically she let me
very kindly, she let me, when I

say do my one man show, my one
act show, the only thing.

I mean it's like I have one
routine.

If you've heard it, you don't
ever want to talk to me again

because it's all I know how to
do is just tell you my story and

that's what I did.
And then we took them through

this all, of course, I think,
and we typically do the whiskey

1st and then the gin and then
for dessert our cream liqueur,

which is really surprisingly
amazing, Our whiskey cream.

And all of a sudden, I mean they
just were very enthusiastic,

super nice, got up and all
started wanting to make drinks

with it.
Came up with cookie cocktails

and I hadn't even had breakfast
yet or lunch and they're giving

me their cocktails to try and
whatever.

But just like it was just such a
nice vibe.

Now of course, you know, then
they're going to get set up for

work that day and they're going
to have a million things and

then tomorrow probably some Rep
is going to come in and they're

going to forget about it.
So how do you carry on that

goodwill?
And I don't know of any other

way but just to continue to work
at it and it's that's when I,

you know, I think my, my
colleague said it's about

persistence more than anything
else.

I think that's what it is.
There's no magic to it.

This is also the beauty of that
because I'm a big fan of the the

systems now like the building an
on trade system to really like I

I like to say to off trade, eyes
on trade a little bit now

because the beauty of off trade
is that it's very, it's very

pragmatic, it's very clear, it's
very like there is a buyer,

there is a there are deadlines.
There are things that that are

very rare in the in the on trade
world.

But if we could take some of the
learnings from the off trade and

build into the on trade, that's
beautiful and effective.

But at the same time, the beauty
of on trade is still this kind

of like being able to derail,
you know, is knowing the rules.

And then say you know what, you
know, let's have a cocktail and

let's have a chat about, you
know, kids and holidays.

And let's talk about something
rather than just, than than

just.
Business.

I can tell you our greatest
asset in all this is our

distillery, because we're only
an hour and a half from London,

because it's beautiful.
It really, I mean, honestly, I

can say a lot of things that
maybe we maybe we are, maybe

we're not, and maybe we're not
at all.

But one thing that we are is the
most beautiful distillery out

there in a beautiful part of the
world.

We're surrounded by hills, by
walking paths.

And So what we've always focused
on is where we can and when

there's a relationship that's
important, really important to

us.
I mean, they're all important,

but the ones that are really
critical, the real lighthouse

kind of accounts, get them, get
them up to the distillery, you

know, bring them up, get them
whether they're take a train or

get them in a car, whatever,
just get them to spend the day.

And our sort of global whiskey
brand, Ambassador Rob, has

really taken this to a new level
recently.

There's a major hotel group in
the UK and he managed to get

most of their bartenders ahead,
bartenders to agree to come out

for a day.
He organized it.

This was like, you know, this
was like taking a bunch of kids

to summer camp.
He had T-shirts that they had to

wear.
Then he took them on a March, a

walk up the hill with a box
lunch.

They sat down in a field under a
tree.

They had their lunch looking out
at this most incredible,

beautiful Vista.
Then down the other side of the

hill was a barn, which is one of
our whiskey warehouses.

Now that it's no longer here in
Liverpool, and we've built a

secret bar inside the cask
stack.

So basically inside this sort of
sort of pallet bar that's in the

middle of all the cast of
whiskey, we did this whole

tasting.
Then after that it was back to

the distillery for a night
around the fire pit.

Again, bringing back the fire
pit into that, the whole outside

thing, that marshmallows,
whiskey.

One of the great I feel success
stories was the wonderful Bar

Dukes in London.
And I don't know if you're

familiar with some of the guys
there, Alessandra, Alejandra

Palazzi, who you know, in the
beginning, let's just say there

wasn't really a lot of warmth
there.

We were one of many who came
through the door.

Everybody of course wants to the
home of the Martini and wants to

be be part of this.
And through the diligent work, I

mean basically after a few years
we were able to get the whole

team to come out for the weekend
and we sat out in the sun at the

on the terrace drinking
cocktails after our head

mixologist Ali had the privilege
as he said the honor of his life

to make a martini for
Alessandro.

And these are wonderful moments
which we hope will live on and

we try and do as much as we can.
We can't do do it for everybody,

but you know, everybody is
always invited to come and we we

try and emphasize that.
Beautiful In the actual

distillery visit and the You
Know advocacy tour, how you know

big brands are calling it.
You bring to life the drinking

occasion and the fire pits and
you know the surroundings.

You know you bring together
listening to you.

Is this all I want to do it as
well?

We're waiting for you.
The, you know, like they're all

the surrounding the ingredients,
the barley that goes into it,

the the maturation, you know,
the barns, the, the, the actual

distillery, where to drink it,
when to drink it, you know, and

then it that's that light lasts
forever.

No.
And I, and I mean I like what

also what you said, which is
very smart in that sense because

you know like being so close to
London, which is one of the

epicenters of trends, you know
makes it so easy because you

don't have to book flights and
you know like big, big budgets

to bring people out there when
whenever they're in London or or

the if they are based in London,
right.

That's all for today.
Remember that this is a two-part

episode, 37 and 38.
If you enjoyed it, please rate

it, comment and share it with
friends, and come back next week

for more insights about building
brands from the bottom up.