Tracy Arntzen - Why Does A Mental Health Breakdown Wreak Havoc On A Family?

Show Notes

Tracy Arntzen - Why Does A Mental Health Breakdown Wreak Havoc On A Family? by Browncroft Community Church

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Peter Englert: Welcome to the Why God Why Podcast. My name is Peter Englert. We are part of the Lumivoz Network.
We exist to respond to the questions you don't feel comfortable asking in church. We are here with our fantastic producer, Nathan Yoder, and a new host, one of our co-hosts. We love Aaron, but we are here with the fabulous, I had to come up with a adjective, Alyssa Matz. How are you, Alyssa?

Alyssa Matz: I'm doing good, Peter.

Peter Englert: Well, hey, we have Alyssa on too, because she has an MSW, a masters in social work. And that's a great segue to our conversation on mental health. Today, we'll be asking the question; why does a mental health breakdown wreak havoc on a family? And we are here with my new friend, guest, Tracy Arntzen. She's a friend of one of our other guests, Becky Harling. She's currently working on a Bible study about mental health. And so, I think that her story is going to resonate with many of you.
I'll just kind of say this, then I'm going to hand it over to Alyssa to get us started. If you haven't been through a mental health breakdown, you probably know someone who has. And so, I just encourage all of our listeners, there's going to be some really practical and helpful aspects of this conversation.
What do you think, Alyssa?

Alyssa Matz: I think this is an important topic and I'm really glad that we're here talking about it with Tracy today.
Tracy, would you mind introducing yourself, maybe sharing a little bit about your story?

Tracy Arntzen: Sure. Thank you both for having me. I'm really excited to be here today. It's an honor. And I'll admit that I was a little nervous when you sent the question to me, "This would be a great question for us to answer. How does a mental health breakdown wreak havoc on a family?" I think that's a little bit deeper than a lot of conversations we're having. The conversations that we're all used to having are, "Mental health, that's important. How has your family been affected by that?: But the wreak havoc part kind of caused me to pause and take my breath away.
But my personal story is I was raised socially Catholic and was not a believer when my husband, Jay, and I got married 34 years ago. He was a fairly new believer, but he really led the way in our marriage ceremony, the portion that God would have of that. I was more interested in the wedding planning and the dresses and all of that kind of stuff.
But it was four years later when we were attending a couple's Bible study together after the birth of our first son, that Jesus really grabbed a hold of my heart. And then, was when I accepted the Lord as my savior, and was really committed to raising our kids in a way, very different from what my husband and I were raised in. We were both raised in some pretty dysfunctional family setting. Alcohol was abused and we had a very large community around us. And in my personal family, a lot of that was dysfunctional and alcohol was abused in a lot of different ways.
So coming into marriage, it probably would've been good for us to go into marriage and had counseling first, but we were just on different paths. And once we started having children, my role became staying at home with the children and his was climbing the corporate ladder, which he did very successfully. I really felt the first 10 years of our marriage were like a fairytale. I honestly thought, "Gosh, I must be a really good wife because she never complains." But really, he was struggling since probably late teen years with anxiety and depression. So at age 40, after nine years of marriage, he had an emotional breakdown. So he learned to mask it for a long time, which really is sad. It's really sad to me.
So that's our story. I was so shocked when we discovered what was wrong. It was kind of by accident. I knew something was wrong with him, but I couldn't put my finger on it. And it wasn't something we were comfortable talking about, like, "What's wrong with you?" But one afternoon, I was browsing through a Good Housekeeping magazine, came across an article on depression, and at the end there were 10 questions. And I was just casually breezing through this article. And as I read the questions, it dawned on me, "This is what's wrong with Jay." So that was kind of how we diagnosed depression and anxiety in our marriage.

Alyssa Matz: Wow. Thank you for sharing that. What was that season like for you. Walking through your husband has anxiety, depression, you just shared. Can you just describe a little bit more details about what that season was like?

Tracy Arntzen: Well, that season was shocking at first, because he was kind of a golden boy. Everything he touched turned successful. And so, it was really hard for him to accept. And for me, it was a season of just fear, unknown, not knowing where to turn. Initially, I thought, "Well, he'll take some medication and we will leave this behind us." But two and a half decades later, we are still living with the effects of mental illness. He struggles with anxiety and depression today. So the season was very frightening. And coming from our families of origin, we were not equipped at all, how to cope, or deal, or thrive with this kind of diagnosis.

Alyssa Matz: I can definitely see how not being prepared for something like that or not being raised in a family where that was talked about, or even a culture where that was talked about could be difficult when you finally do face a mental health crisis.

Peter Englert: Yeah. And I guess, for some of our listeners that are kind of unaware, because you kind of touched on it, I want you to feel comfortable with this, but talk a little bit more about the breakdown, that actual moment. Because I think that there's some families that have experienced that, or there's some people. Can you just give us some details that you're comfortable, of what that moment actually looked like? Not only, "Hey, I found out my husband was depressed," but this was the moment that, "Hey, we're in it and we're walking through it."

Tracy Arntzen: I think a lot of moments come flooding in as you ask that question. But I remember the day, September 9th 1999, '98. And I remember it clearly. And he just kept pushing through. And there's a term in mental health care, that the farther you get into the forest, the longer it takes to come out. And we were both so naive. And again, not having a great support network around us, not only people close to us, but even the medical community. I look back now and how the medical community approached treatment for him was very... Left a lot to be desired, a lot to be hoped for. It was so clear of unsure which direction to go. And we were really walking through this in complete darkness as far as what to do medically and what to do to help him.
So he kept pushing along in his career and we didn't really slow down our life. Instead, he started taking medication. And although it helped somewhat, it really did not address any of the underlying causes. It treated the symptoms a little bit. We've learned two and a half decades later, there's much more to it than taking medication.
But the moment when he just had a breakdown and came home in the middle of the day and just said, "I can't go on." And literally shared with me how hopeless he was and how he felt like he needed to leave this Earth, and having conversations that were really frightening about not wanting to be here. And here we are with a young family and three kids. And from the outside, people looking in our front door, we look like the model family, that had it all together. Successful husband, beautiful children, great marriage.
And I called a friend. And I knew that his wife had struggled with depression. They had shared that with us, just very subtly. So I called this couple and they came over and talked to me while Jay was in bed. And he had been talking about ending his life and it really frightened me. But he had planned it, how he would do it. And they said he needs to go to a hospital. So they helped get him in the car. And he literally curled up in the car, almost in a ball. And we took him to the hospital. Which that, I thought was going to be relief. But once I left him there, there was complete stop of all communication with me from the hospital. I couldn't talk to him. I felt like he had been whisked away. It was so frightening. I thought you go visit someone in the hospital, every day, you take them food. I had no idea that when I let go of him at that hospital door, that I would be completely cut off for about seven days.
During which time, he actually left the hospital on his own. And I got a call from the hospital saying, "Your husband has left and we don't know where he is."

Alyssa Matz: Wow.

Peter Englert: That's a lot. I'm so thankful that you're sharing in this season. And I guess, as you're looking back and you're thinking about... You've mentioned very positive examples of support, the friends that were there with you. Walk us through those seven days and even the months and the years afterwards. What were people saying to you that was helpful, that wasn't helpful? And how did you feel as someone not necessarily directly experiencing a breakdown, but indirectly experiencing it through your husband in that sort of sense?

Tracy Arntzen: Well, I know definitely what was most helpful, and it was something that started years before this, my personal journey with God. Once I became a believer in Christ, my life changed radically and I found so much joy being involved in Bible study, in church community. It was really a very personal joy that I found. And I have been in Bible studies constantly for the last three decades. And I'm very disciplined about spending quiet time with the Lord. So that's probably what's been the most helpful. And that's how I want to encourage people who might be walking a similar journey, because those around us, our family, our friends, our loved ones, they're not going to love us and support us the way the Lord will. And I know that sounds very religiousy, but it is true. Our family at times was supportive and at times they were clueless.
There was a situation when my husband was hospitalized, my in-laws who are no longer with us, and I say this with all dignity, because I loved them and we had a good relationship, but they came to our home, they lived about an hour away, came to our home that day when Jay was taken to the hospital, they spent the night, and the very next morning, at the crack of dawn, they woke up and left. And until the time they left this Earth, they really ignored that their son struggled. I think because they didn't know how to cope. They didn't know what to do with it. So I don't blame them. I think it's only by the grace of God that I had a good relationship with them.
So there were just a few friends that came around, that I felt were safe to talk to. There was one friend, I had to go to the hospital a few days in a row at 5:30 AM. And we had three small children. And I'm like, "Okay, what am I going to do with my children at 5:30 AM, and get them to school?" And I had a dear friend who I didn't even tell her Jay was in the hospital, I just told her I needed her help, and could she come the next three mornings at 5:15 AM and get the kids to school, and she did. She never asked a question. She was so sweet and gentle. It was actually on her birthday the year before that Jay had that breakdown. And I was supposed to be going to birthday lunch with her that day, but canceled because our youngest was homesick. So thank goodness I was home.

Alyssa Matz: What a great friend. I just want to go back a little bit. You were talking about how your in-laws reacted to this mental health crisis. I was just wondering, what kind of misunderstandings do you think that they had, or do you think that other people may have when they see a family walking through something like this?

Tracy Arntzen: There's so much misunderstanding. I think they were devastated that their son was suffering and struggling. And maybe the biggest misunderstanding was caused by our lack of transparency and our lack of being truly vulnerable. Maybe we contributed to that. But just explaining to them what was going on, it was so hard for them to get their minds around it. And I just don't think that they had any idea of what to do or even say. We often can associate with when there's a tragic loss of life, a young child or a sudden accident, people are at a loss for words. And I think they were just at a loss. They had no idea, which brought, in a way, embarrassment and shame upon us. And especially for the one suffering, embarrassment and shame are just awful to deal with. Just awful. It just feeds it.

Peter Englert: So one of the reasons we have Alyssa here as a co-host, she did one of our questions and episodes on why do my friends in crisis need me? So I think she's a good co-host for this. But I guess, as Alyssa asks these questions, I'm just really grateful for your vulnerability. Help us understand, because this has been a journey, you're still kind of healing through this, what were the next six to 12 months, even the next year? Because I'm thinking about your husband and you and your family. You're walking into very public places like church, like the grocery store, all this. And for our listeners that are just kind of unaware, what was that like? Because there's similarities, but then there's a uniqueness of when a tragedy or crisis happens, trying to acclimate to normal life. As you go back, what were you thinking and feeling? What was your husband thinking and feeling? Was it hard to get back out? Were you able to get back out? Help us understand what that was like.

Tracy Arntzen: So the first five years, we hid it completely. We tried to carry on as normal. And we just pushed through and I tried to keep things normal. And I look back now and that was a mistake on my part, because it wasn't okay and normal. I think normal has a very vague definition now, especially post-pandemic, what is normal? But I just tried to keep it as minimal as possible, keep the effects as minimal as possible. But that's really difficult to do when the symptoms of severe depression and anxiety are loss of sleep, irritability, emotional rollercoaster, inability to focus, or inability to be in a public situation. And it was so unpredictable. So it was really difficult, very difficult, especially trying to keep it under wraps, keep it hidden from everyone. Even at times, I tried to keep it hid from our children because they were young, and especially when they were adolescents.
But because of the complexity of mental illness, it's so complex. I believe mental illness treatment and support is still in its infancy. I liken it to breast cancer 60 years ago. There was so little known about what it was, how to treat it, and I believe that true today. We'd moved a lot because of my husband's job, but we'd move and we'd find a new doctor and they would think totally different of the last doctor we were with. And even from counseling. And there's so many things that affect it. There's such a misunderstanding.
I remember one of our son's teammate's mother committed suicide. And we knew this woman and it was tragic. My husband could not go to the funeral. And the whole team went to the funeral as a team unit. And parents, we put on the after memorial luncheon. And my husband couldn't go. There was no way he could do this. And I just said, "I'll go by myself. I'll take him. And it's okay. You don't have to go."
But a few weeks later, the same group of teen parents were sitting at a restaurant post a game, and one woman spoke out so harshly and so condemning about this woman who had taken her life; how selfish it was, how inconsiderate, "How could she do it? Why wouldn't she just take medicine and get better? It's just ridiculous." That was her position. And my husband and I sat there. She was right across the table from us. And I just put my hand under the table on his lap and just rubbed his leg and tried to comfort him. Looking back, I wish I would've just whispered in his ear, "We can go now," and got up and excused ourself politely, without making a scene, and got him out of there. So he didn't have to sit and be subjected to it.
But there's so much misunderstanding. Even if you know someone who struggles, you don't understand it. My husband will say to me, because he still struggles, and in fact, we're in a season right now that's really difficult for him, and he'll say to me, "You don't understand," and I've lived right next to it for almost 25 years. So people just don't understand.

Peter Englert: I just want to follow up to what you said, because what I heard you say was there was five years that you tried to live life normally. At what point did you decide, "We're going to be authentic and we're going to be real and honest with this?" I think because that would help our listeners.
And I'm also thinking of the people, that they might not know someone that's experiencing a breakdown and you're kind of painting a picture that we could be friends with someone in small groups, coworkers, and not saying that you're looking for signs. I don't think I'd walk up to Alyssa and be like, "Hey Alyssa, you seem a little stressed, "Is your family going on a breakdown?" But I think that we can just become more aware. So at what point did you kind of decide, "We're going to be more authentic about this," as opposed to kind holding it in?

Tracy Arntzen: Well, we gradually would share very little information with people, but we didn't decide to become authentic, my husband did. We were at a couples' marriage retreat weekend. I don't even remember who the speakers were or what the topic of the retreat was, but a typical church retreat. There was about 100 people there. And the last day, we went to a historic chapel on the grounds. And our pastor, who's just a wonderful guy, and his wife, just opened up and kind of recapped the weekend. But just said, "We want to open it up to a time if anyone has anything they want to share. If this weekend spoke to you and kind of opened the door." And my husband leaned over and said to me, "I'm going to get up and speak." And I had no idea what he was going to speak about.
And he got up in the front of 100 people and shared his story and shared some dark details and probably went on for 15 minutes. And I'm sitting in the pew crying, but I had so many mixed emotions. And he came and sat down. And afterwards, so many people came up to us and thanked him.
And what struck me the most was dear friends of ours approached us, who we knew very well. And she shared that when she was in college, her mother committed suicide, and we never knew that about her. And she just said, "Thank you for sharing this." And now, we know that about her and she knows this about us. And there's just something there that's helpful and hopeful. And she shared her story with us and she hadn't shared it very often at all.
Well, the next Sunday we go to church and Jay tells me that morning he didn't want to go to church. And I said, "Do you have sharing remorse?" And he said, "Yes." And he was very anxious about going to church. He was questioning, "Why did I do that? People are going to look at me differently. They're going to judge me." And we went and several people over the next few weeks approached us and thanked us. And I think through that, Jay learned and realized, "Wow, I can help people." So he really took the step to help others and started sharing this story with a lot of people. And that unsettled me. I'm like, "You're sharing a little too freely here." But it's been fine. It's really been fine and good. I think it's helped him, but helped others as well.
So we own an elevator company. And in our business we have a corporate chaplain who we have on a retainer. And my husband made the decision to do this years ago, that any one of our employees who needs counseling or any kind of life coaching, that we pay for it. We don't need to know that you're talking with them. It's a husband and wife, and they're amazing. We don't need to know anything about it. It's all very confidential. And the first couple years, a couple of people utilized that benefit, but now it's just common. They have an office in our office and our staff is free to use that resource as much and as often as they need.

Alyssa Matz: Wow, that's amazing. I think more companies and more workplaces should do something like that for their employees because mental health is just as important as physical health, as emotional health, any other kind of health. Mental health is just as important. And I think that's really cool, that you provide that for your employees.
I want to go back to what you were saying. You talked about your church and how you found them to be supportive, to your surprise, when your husband started sharing his story about his mental health crisis. More people stepped forward and said, "Hey, I resonate with that." That, "I relate with you. That happened to me." Or, "I'm going through this too," which I just think is so powerful. That when we share our stories and our struggles, it opens the door for other people to open up about theirs.
I just wanted to ask you, since your church seem to respond so well and so healthily to your husband sharing, do you think that is a common thing for churches? Do you think that the church usually gets it wrong? Because honestly, I've seen it a lot of times where the church does get mental health wrong or doesn't respond to mental health crises in a healthy way. What do you think about that?

Tracy Arntzen: Well, I think a lot about that. And in one of the chapters I'm writing, I call out the church. There are some churches that are doing great work. Kay Warren, Saddleback Church, she's doing an amazing work. But that was birthed out of tragedy of their son, Matthew. Although I love my church, I don't think my church does enough for it. I don't think most churches do enough in this arena. And I know many churches actually harm instead of help families.
In doing my research for what I'm writing, I met a woman who belonged to a church, and their church did not believe in treating mental illness with any kind of treatment; medication, counseling. It was all frowned upon. And this is a Christian Church. So they called themself a Christian Church and profess salvation through Christ. And when she was 13 years old, her mother committed suicide. She went to church that night and did not talk about it to anyone. When she was a little bit older, her only sibling committed suicide. And a few years later, her father committed suicide. So talk about mental illness wreaking havoc on a family, it does. And she's the only surviving member of her family of origin.

Alyssa Matz: It makes you wonder if maybe her church had handled that differently, or had been more supportive in that way, if the outcome maybe would've been different for that family.

Tracy Arntzen: I think she believes yes. I believe yes, because we are a family that because we've sought out how to thrive with this debilitating diagnosis and our three... We have three grown sons, and at different times, they've struggled as well. Statistic is if you have a parent who's committed suicide, their children are seven times more likely to attempt it. That's a pretty strong statistic.
And I would suspect that in recent years, with how the pandemic and everything that falls into that effect of the pandemic, I would wonder if that number's not even higher now. Because I believe suicide is on the rise, or us just learning about suicide and people who have taken their lives is becoming more transparent. Because there was another death in our community years ago, and we were told it was a heart attack, but years later people said he took his life.

Peter Englert: I want come back to the church thing because I'm a pastor, and it's easy for me to throw myself under the bus. I'm also married to a mental health counselor. So I guess, what I'm trying to process with you is even a vision for the church to really support mental health in a healthy way, and one of the things that my wife and I talk about a lot is actually knowing our lanes.
So for me, I'm not going to diagnose if you're anxious or depressed, because frankly, I don't know. I can acknowledge a symptom. And then my wife will say, "When someone asks a question, 'Why does suffering happen to good people?'" She can follow up and ask some questions that are really tough like, "Hey, why does this mean so much to you?" and stuff like that, but she's not necessarily going to give the theological response.
And on the other hand, what I'm processing as I listen to you also, and even I'd throw this to Alyssa too, the church is kind of set up with some proactive measures with mental health. So if you're in a small group, how you manage a mental health situation with actual real community. So I'm not just saying we meet and do Bible study, but you're actually growing, that's going to be something that's helpful. Prayer and Bible reading, coming to church on Sunday morning.
I guess, what I'd love to hear, we'll start with you Tracy, and then I want to throw it to Alyssa, what would be some vision points... Paint us a picture of how the church in its lane can be more ready to respond to mental health breakdowns and even just mental health in general?

Tracy Arntzen: Well, I think churches need to adopt, like they do in grief care, divorce care, addiction, they need to have an arm that supports mental health. So they need to have someone on staff. There are a lot of people who need counseling or mental health direction, just someone to talk to. We don't even know where to go. It's scary to Google search psychiatrist, "Okay, let's just pick one." It's frightening to search counselor or life coach, and just pick one. It's not like you're Google searching someone to come in and spray fertilizer on your yard. This is important stuff. So I think the church should have someone on staff, a designated person, like we do in our business.
"This is our corporate chaplain and he's here to help you in counseling, in therapy, in coaching, whatever you need, when you come upon life's challenges." We had an employee whose husband passed away very unexpectedly, suddenly. She knew right away. He called her that day. Our corporate chaplain called her that day, just to be there in support. So I think the church needs to have some resources that are specifically for mental health care of their church family.
I think another thing is they need to talk about it from the pulpit. I was in church when our pastor who was very open about it, mentioned again about growing up with a mother who struggled with mental illness. That was when God tapped on my shoulder almost audibly, and I felt in my spirit to teach a Bible study at church for families who struggle with mental illness. And I was like, "Oh, no, I don't want to do that." So I kind of disagreed with the Lord's nudging. But during my quiet time, it kept coming back up.
So I did a search, Bible study for families with mental illness. And this was a couple of years ago. There was nothing out there. Now, there's great books that have been written about families who struggle. But a true Bible study about it, there was nothing out there. So I thought I was off the hook. I thought I might have misunderstood. But then God made it clear, that he wanted me to write one. Because that's really how I got through, that became my anchor, the word of God. So I think the church needs to be more open in biblical teaching and what does the Bible say about mental illness.
I've often wondered about when Jesus was tempted. The story is that the enemy tempted him to jump from the temple. Well, if we study the height of that temple. And in Jesus's human form, had he jumped, being human, his life would've ended. Now, I've talked to a couple of pastors, "Have you ever thought about that temptation and what it could have meant from a suicide perspective?" And every pastor I've mentioned it to have kind of gotten glazed over and said, "No, never thought about that." But the Bible teaches a lot about depression and anxiety.
David clearly struggled with anxiety, and Elijah and Hannah. There's plenty. I can't imagine Noah did not deal with some anxiety. But there are specific characters in the Bible that if we were to define their life with being touched with depression and anxiety, I think we could all say, "Yes, they were."
So I think as a church, we need to just teach from God's word. There was a season in my life, probably 15 years ago, when I was praying because the symptoms had resurfaced for my husband severely again. And I felt like he wasn't doing what he needed to do to be helped. Easy for me to say, not so easy for the patient. But I started praying to God, "Can you release me from this marriage? Can I have your permission, Lord?" And John 21, all I kept hearing was, "Feed my sheep. Tend my sheep." And I listened to a song by Third Day, Give Me Revelation. I would listen to that song probably six times a day. And just seeking God. If God would've given me just the nod, I would've been out of the marriage. And I sit here today, and grateful I didn't, because God never gave me that permission. Instead of, what I would hear was, "Tend my sheep. Feed my lamb." And that's who Jay is, he's God's child.

Peter Englert: Before we go on with your story, Alyssa, you're obviously passionate and talented. What would you add to what Tracy just said about the church, and paint a picture for us of what that might look like.

Alyssa Matz: I couldn't agree more with all of the things Tracy said about what more the church could be doing. I completely agree.
First thing, definitely having someone on staff. Or if you don't have the resources to have someone on staff, partner with an outside organization, of someone who is a mental health expert and knows resources and knows interventions and knows about mental illness. It's just important. It's a facet that shouldn't be ignored. And having connections, or having someone directly on your staff that can support people in that way is crucial. Definitely a missing piece in a lot of churches these days.
And the second thing, again, you said exactly what I was going to say, Tracy, about speaking from the pulpit about mental illness, or just getting it up there because it trickles down. What gets talked about at the top will be talked about in the congregation, will be talked about in small groups, will be talked about on one-on-one conversations. So if we can start at the top and have our lead pastors, our student pastors, whatever it is, having them talk about mental health and mental illness, that will trickle down. Then the small group leaders will start talking about it. Then the church leaders will start talking about it. Then the congregation will start talking about it and the families will start talking about it. It needs to be more visible and more out there, talked about, acknowledged.
Some churches don't even acknowledge mental illness as a problem. And that is a problem in and of itself that we could get into. But acknowledging that mental health is an issue and that it needs to be addressed and healed is the first step. And then, connecting with people who can resource help for mental health and getting members, leaders to be talking about mental health, and looking for signs of people who may be struggling, and having them be trained in that way too. Just so good.

Peter Englert: Wow.

Alyssa Matz: We could talk forever.

Peter Englert: Obviously, Tracy, we're going to have you back on, and we'll probably have Alyssa. Who knows, maybe we'll kick me out and it'll just be you two.
But I want to shift. I think it's important because I'm hoping our listeners realize there are conversations about mental health happening in churches. It might not be in your church, but there are churches out there. And I think that's important. But now, I want to focus on our listeners, because the Monday through Saturdays of our lives, the very practical, I'm imagining in the next few weeks or few months, someone's going to find out, "My friend's husband just went to the hospital for mental illness." Or, "My friend's wife just went to the hospital for mental illness." Or, "I have a coworker that went in for mental illness." Or, "One of my friends' kids..."
The focus of this episode... Alyssa's episode was the person experiencing, we're talking about the indirect. And I guess, I just throw this to both of you, when you become aware of that, everybody's an individual, but what are some things that you would encourage people to respond when there's a mental health breakdown and when someone finds out about it?

Tracy Arntzen: I think the first thing is to not make judgment. Do not judge that person, because you have no idea. I've lived next to it for two and a half decades, and I still have no idea what goes on in my husband's mind. It's like when someone has a broken leg, you don't feel that break in your own body. And so, when he is struggling emotionally, mentally, I can't really relate to that. So I think the first thing is don't judge. Be so careful what you say, because there are things I've said directly to my husband that have been so not helpful, never intentional of course. But talk, and just be there, and ask, "How can I help?" Because often what we think is helpful is not. And just ask, "How can I help?"
And I think the second thing is, if you're a family member who has a loved one, the way I have gotten through... And we are a thriving family. We own two businesses. We have a ministry that we founded that is not related to mental health at all. It's an orphan care ministry, but our pastor has said it should be named Saving Jay, because it really gave Jay his purpose in life. And God has blessed our ministry, and because of my husband's brilliance and vision and because he said yes to one little thing, God called him to go on a mission trip.
So I would just encourage people, that your mental health diagnosis does not define who you are. It's something that has happened to you, like when you fall and break your leg. It does not define who you are and it does not define who my husband is. So remember that is not who they are.

Peter Englert: Man, those are some great thoughts. Alyssa, you talked about the direct and I think Tracy's given us... What would you say to the family, the indirect that are dealing with it? What encouragement would you give our listeners when they find out someone's having a breakdown?

Alyssa Matz: To encourage the whole family is what you're asking, right?

Peter Englert: Yeah. So if you were a friend of Tracy and she shared with you, "Hey, Jay had a breakdown," what would be some things that you'd be thinking about to help Tracy?

Alyssa Matz: Well, I would think about your family as a whole, because mental health, of course it affects the individual that is going through the crisis, but it affects the whole family. In social work, we have the family systems theory, which just basically talks about what's going on with one individual affects everyone. And so, I think just understanding that from an outside perspective, that the rest of the family can't just move on with their life, or can't just forget about that one family member, but to really address the needs of the family as a whole, and to think about what each individual or even ask them what each individual person needs, how they're being affected and not just assuming that it's not their problem, they're just the wife or they're just the kid. That they're not impacted as much as a direct person. That's incorrect. Everyone is impacted. And so, just looking at the family, talking to the family, seeing what each individual person from that family needs and how they're impacted by it, because everyone is.

Peter Englert: Even as you were talking, trying to find words in a podcast, direct and indirect, there's probably a better word, but obviously everyone's directly affected by it.
But going from there, this time's gone way too fast. And I just love these episodes. I can't wait for your book to come out. We'll ask more, but we have two kind of final questions. Let me just start here. What's one question you wish people would've asked you as you've walked through these last... Since 1999, what is that? 21 years. What's one question you wish people would've asked you about what you've been through? 23. I'm a pastor. I don't always count well, so there we go.

Tracy Arntzen: I wish people would've asked, "What can we do for your kids and for you?" I think one of the failures on my own part was our kids were young when it started. And then, we had another serious episode when they were adolescents. And I think one of my personal failures is I didn't take care of them well enough. I think God did an amazing job taking care of them, because they could have gone off the rails, and they didn't. But, "How can we help your kids? What can we do to help your kids?"
We've all, in our family, had counseling now, but some more than others. But I think I should have gotten them into counseling right away, when they were young. And so, another thing I think they could ask me today, "How have you gotten through this?" Because we are intact and we live pretty full lives because my answer would be, "I've gotten through it by living out James 4:8, "Drawn near to God and he'll draw near to you." And I have a faith and an intimacy with God that I think is way deeper than most people, because of this suffering that we've gone through as a family.

Peter Englert: Wow. Tracy, as always, thank you so much for just being honest. And this has been a huge topic.
So we always close with one question and that question is; what would Jesus have to say about this topic? So what we tell every listener, is we tell them this, Alyssa and I are going to answer that question. And then, Tracy, you get to clean up whatever mess we left. Deal? Does that sound good?

Tracy Arntzen: That sounds good.

Peter Englert: You want to go first or you want me, Alyssa?

Tracy Arntzen: I'll go.

Peter Englert: Okay.

Tracy Arntzen: I think Jesus would say about mental health and the family, first of all, I think to the person who is struggling with their mental health, I think Jesus would say, "I love you. I see you. Your mental health doesn't define you. You are valuable. You are a child of God." All of those affirmations. I just think that those things are so important for people who are struggling with mental health, because oftentimes, they can lose sight of that and they can forget whose they are and who loves them. And I think Jesus would just remind them of that over and over and over again.
And to the families that may have loved ones who are struggling with a mental health crisis, I think Jesus would say, "Cast all your cares on me because I care for you." It can be really hard to see a family member or a close friend even go through a mental health crisis, but God is with us and he can be our rock and our support, even when we don't feel strong enough to support that other person who is going through the crisis their self. So that's what I think you would say.
First of all, just encouragement to the person who's going through the crisis. And then, just a reminder to the family in the crisis, that they can lean and they should lean on him.

Peter Englert: Wow, that's really good. I love that. As I've been thinking about this episode, there's one story that just kind of keeps coming back to me. So the Pharisees, who are the religious leaders, and the disciples, there's this conversation about this man that's born blind. And they're trying to debate, "Is it his mom who sinned? Is it his dad who sinned? Who sinned?" And Jesus' response was he completely changed the subject. And I think that the main teaching in that, Jesus is like, "Don't make those assumptions."
And I think that in our humanity, when we hear a story of what Tracy experienced, we try to make some simple explanations, where I think Jesus is like, "No, this is for my glory." And I'm working. And I go to the broken places. And no one's messed up and no one's sinned. And I say that more like we're all imperfect, we're all broken.
But I think Jesus would sit there and be like, "Those are the wrong questions to be asking." And I think that this whole episode is the power of the gospel, which is when life gets really, really dark, and even when we're not the one experiencing the breakdown, but we're experiencing the effects of the breakdown, is that Jesus wants to offer hope. And sometimes he does that through prayer. Sometimes he does that through Bible reading. But sometimes he does his best work through other people. And so, you have this choice to respond in what makes sense, what makes you feel better, or you can respond in a way to help someone else. So that's what I'd say.

Alyssa Matz: [inaudible].

Peter Englert: Oh, thanks. What do you think, Tracy?

Tracy Arntzen: Well, I think you both said it beautifully. Thank you. I can see that you have a deep understanding and a compassion.
I think what Jesus would say also is very personally to each of us. It is so sad to me that there's a belief that, "Well, if you're a Christian, you wouldn't suffer from depression, if you prayed more." That still is out there in some church circles. And what you said about it doesn't define you, it's not who you are, you're a child of God. The sad thing is that there are times when they can't believe that, and not just my husband, but I've talked to a lot of people. And that's where we need to encourage them. "Let me believe it for you today. Trust that I believe it. I've said that to Jay before, "I believe it for both of us. I've got you on that." The man who said, "Help me with my unbelief," said that to Jesus. So I think Jesus would be very compassionate about the topic.
And this morning, preparing for this. I listened to a Jeremy Camp song from 2008. There Will Be A Day, based on revelation 21:4. And that's what I hear Jesus say to me when times get hard and when things are dark, "There'll be a day when there's no tears, pain, fears." God's going to wipe away every tear, not just for the person suffering, but for their family, their believing family members. And the beauty that's in store is going to take care of all of this. So there's great hope.
I have great hope, even though I know that Jay's struggle is long. It's been going on a long time, and it ebbs and flows. But I have great hope, because I know that there will come a day when Jesus will wipe away all of it. There'll be no more memory.

Peter Englert: We usually end in a particular way, but I think the only way for us to end appropriately is I... Tracy, I just want to give you an opportunity to pray over our guests. Well, you're our guest, but pray over our audience and the people listening to that. I think that's probably the most appropriate way. Would you mind leading us?

Tracy Arntzen: I really appreciate that because I believe we get through what we get through in our family through prayer. And if I logged the number of hours of praying just for this subject, that would be a lot. So yes, I'd love to pray. Thank you.
Dear Father God, I come before you, Lord. And I just thank you for this opportunity to share how you have been the strength, the foundation for our family. How through it all, you have been there. How you have always sustained us and how you've always made yourself known to me, and for Jay and our boys. I lift up every family, every listener today who is struggling, or has a loved one, struggling. I pray that they would know your presence Father in a way that would give great assurance. And I pray that when times are difficult, we will remember your faithfulness, because you have been faithful through the ages and you will continue to be. Help us to love those who struggle the way that Jesus loved when he walked on Earth. Sustain us and encourage us when we need it most. Father, I pray that your power would help tear down the walls of stigma. And we look forward to the day when there will be no more memory of these struggles on this Earth. And we trust you. We trust you each day. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.