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The Tracks Nobody Sees, But Every Marketer Should Hear.
This podcast celebrates the hidden gems of marketing insight found across all professions—both within and beyond traditional marketing roles. Just as B-sides on a single contain brilliant tracks that are treasured by true fans, every profession contains marketing wisdom that isn't obvious at first glance but is incredibly valuable when discovered.
Tom Hootman (00:06)
Welcome to yet another episode of The Marketing B-Sides. I'm your host, Tom Hootman.
I love this episode.
I was nervous going into this episode because it's like throwing batting practice to an all-star. Like, I'd be scared. How do I throw a strike? This person does this every single day. This person is just you meet someone who's just comfortable in the other chair and just gets it.
To say they're a powerhouse is an understatement to them.
Rachel Elsts Downey is the founder and CEO of a company called Share Your Genius.
A B2B media superpower. that produces between fifteen hundred and two thousand podcast episodes per month. That's a shit ton of episodes. And what I loved about this conversation is that well, number one, we get along swimmingly.
I've had the pleasure of meeting Rachel a few times we just immediately started bantering, giving each other a little shit.
She's always replied anytime I've had a question, anytime I've needed advice, anytime I've just wanted to catch up. And she was it almost immediately back at me about, hell yeah, I'll be on this podcast. she's very much about cutting through the toxic positivity and facts over feelings. Brass tack shit.
which I thought was fantastic. we talk a lot about what a lot of podcasts get right and what a lot of podcasts fuck up every day and how to prep your guests and how to show up for the conversation in a way that like makes it worth listening to,
I'm gonna tell you the moral of the story now because I trust you as adults You don't have to prove shit to anybody.
That right there is worth the price of admission, folks. She's just a remarkable guest, and a better person, honestly. And I love this conversation. if she called me and said I want to do an episode every other week for the next year, I'd say, sign me up. She's that fantastic of a guest.
I love her frank opinions and her input and just the openness she brought with her experience and knowledge about marketing, about her journey, about her company, about what she thinks works, what she thinks is not working out there.
You know the drill. Go do all the stuff to help make us look good. But more than anything else, listen. Because sometimes it's about the friends you make along the way. Rachel Elsts Downey, everyone. Enjoy.
Rachel Elsts Downey (02:19)
It's been good. It's been busy.
Tom Hootman (02:18)
How's life been?
this is really intimidating for me today, by the way. 'Cause that's what you do for a living is podcasts.
Rachel Elsts Downey (02:23)
Why?
Yeah, but podcasting is just conversation. And you're a great conversationalist. So I feel like you have no issues here.
Tom Hootman (02:29)
yeah.
It's what I do every day. I was always like, I don't know if I can run an agency the job isn't really, I mean, it is running an agency. That's the part that's like is like the stress. But so much of the job, and you know this as well, is like literally just getting out in and talking to people. Brian Neal, blind zebra, Conversations with no expectations all day.
Rachel Elsts Downey (02:48)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (02:52)
And those things, those those waves tend to come back at you in different ways. It's karma. I was raised Catholic, but I believe in karma straight up.
Rachel Elsts Downey (02:58)
Yeah,
I am Catholic. it's all energy. You can't, you can't defute the fact that we, we run on energy. And so it's like, what you put out comes back. What you withhold combusts, you know, like it's, it's not that complicated, even though it is.
Tom Hootman (03:07)
We do. We do run on energy.
The energy thing gets in my head though, because there are times where I'm like, toxic positivity? So I've gotten feedback that I'm much more positive now. I used to be the office curmudgeon, like there just like it was a defense mechanism out of fear of embarrassment is 100% what it was. Like I'm too cool for school. And
Rachel Elsts Downey (03:24)
Okay, I could see that all day.
Yeah. Okay.
Tom Hootman (03:32)
So, like the positivity and like the positive vibes thing is very intentional. And there are moments when I have to tell myself, it's okay to be in a shitty mood. It's like I don't want to become one of those toxic, like, everything's super.
Rachel Elsts Downey (03:36)
Mm.
Tom Hootman (03:44)
While I'm crumbling inside.
Rachel Elsts Downey (03:46)
I think the balance though is like not attaching to that feeling, good or bad. Like watching problems appear without fully labeling them and owning them as like part of who you now are. This is like way deeper and like what we were gonna talk about. But that's something that like, I think it's like just like a lifelong journey for all of us.
Tom Hootman (04:01)
We got Zen. Yeah.
Rachel Elsts Downey (04:06)
But I think that's kind of how you're supposed to be. You're allowed to feel the way you feel, but it's what you do with that feeling and how you make it turn into who you are and all of that, becomes the challenge that you have to remove yourself from.
This isn't mine, but there's a guy that I respect whose name is Nick Smorelli. We can tag him. But he taught me this thing that he's done with his kids that I now do with mine, which is like, anytime you hear them say, I can't, you just reframe it to, I can't yet. And the layer I would add to it is like, I don't want to. know, cause it's like, some of this stuff is like, it's not that I can't or can't yet, it's that I just don't want to. And that's okay too.
Tom Hootman (04:39)
Man, this is do you charge by the hour? Because this is really good for me. it's true though. I've reported to founders before, and there is this great founders lament that I've always been like, cry me a river, what a rough life. You get to call all the shots, right? And
Rachel Elsts Downey (04:52)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (04:55)
There is an element of being on an island and alone where it's so easy to spin off. And it's okay to not have it figured out. And at the same time, you do catch yourself like the things I'm frustrated about are quite literally a lot of the times just things I don't want to do. so when I think about growth, right? Like in a growing agency, I'm like, I can't wait to have
Full-time HR and Marketing and a full-time client success, like layers, good bureaucracy. And it it's the silver platter syndrome of like you just get used to in a corporate environment.
Rachel Elsts Downey (05:19)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (05:28)
Being like, that sounds like an HR problem to me. Looks good from my house. And in reality, it's like stuff I don't want to do.
Rachel Elsts Downey (05:31)
Yeah.
It's,
Well, and think there's a lot of truth to that. I worked at an agency prior to kind of going onto my own and that agency that I grew up in was very like startup vibes. But now sitting in the seat I'm in and we're bringing in new talent, I have felt the difference as sitting in the founder seat of having talent that does come from corporate.
and their experience of being onboarded or some of the things that are messy that I'm used to being messy that they're not. And so there's like a, there's almost like the opposite side of like the chaos. And it's interesting, but at the end of the day, it's like, it's removing the self interest, removing the ego and just coming to these conversations with like, what do you need? What do I need? What are we trying to do? And continually anchor back on that. Otherwise like,
the spiral goes forever. And that could be on the founder's side or on their side. That's like a real thing for sure.
Tom Hootman (06:27)
Yeah, I mean it's easy to spin off into being mortified. It's like inviting someone into your house and it's messy. Right. We've been fortunate enough in my prior life to have a wonderful maid service that would come in. We hire them like once every couple of months and they would come in. And they always told me when people people first hire them, they clean their house before they get there. So like
Rachel Elsts Downey (06:32)
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (06:47)
It takes two or three visits before they start leaving clothes everywhere and they don't wipe off the mirror in the bathroom. Because this is like a senior led team and so many of the team members of people I worked with years ago at Hanapin I remember being mortified, like, okay, no, there's no process for that. No, I'm just hiring off vibes. We don't we don't have that. No, that'd be great to have. Do you have a copy of that? You want to write it? Right. And like you're like, my God.
Rachel Elsts Downey (06:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Do you have time to do
it?
Tom Hootman (07:09)
All I'm doing is telling them how chaotic and messy everything is. And then you get used to this is just a startup. This is very much at that point in our life cycle. It was me and like two other people, And there's just no time to build the thing that we had. But then every person that comes in is able to recreate or build a couple of those things. And then over time, you feel like you're still.
Rachel Elsts Downey (07:12)
Yes.
Tom Hootman (07:31)
in the messy middle. And I had a team member, we talked about it. It was like, actually like, we have a lot of processes. This is really good. We've come so far.
Rachel Elsts Downey (07:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, yeah.
It's facts over feelings. And I think that is like a thing that I've constantly had to go back to. And then it's like, where do I have feelings that I don't have facts for? You know what I mean? To help me like actually understand like what's going on. The other thing that I started to do that somebody gave me advice on was like, I have a list of things that I wish were better, but I'm not touching it right now because there is only so much you can do.
And so it's like, this is a problem, but it's not a problem I need to solve right now. And I feel like sitting in my seat, oftentimes my job is to open up the junk drawer and figure out like what we're gonna organize, what we're gonna fix, that kind of stuff. But then you just close the drawer again, because you're like, all right, I organized these things, closing the drawer, let me now reopen the drawer next quarter and like figure out. So the founder's seat is not an easy one, but I think it's...
Tom Hootman (08:14)
Good analogy.
Rachel Elsts Downey (08:26)
from my perspective and it's obviously biased, like, I think it's the most rewarding.
Tom Hootman (08:31)
I would concur. It's not the easiest, but it's also not as hard as a lot of people's. Like you're not working 140 hours a week. Shut the fuck up. Like there's like
Rachel Elsts Downey (08:39)
It also depends on how you earned your founder seat. Like, did you go VC and you've got pressure or did you fund it yourself and you have stress of like making payroll and all of that, but like no one else is breathing down your neck. So I do think there's like varying degrees of that. But to your point, I also feel like a lot of people complain and whine about choices that they make. And it's like, so make different choices.
Tom Hootman (08:58)
Yeah.
Well, I'm glad someone is out there thinking about the VC and PE backed CEOs. If you if anyone is, you are. Thank goodness, because they're so disregarded. Seriously though, like I chose the other path. Like I'm very bootstrapped. And it's very much how did taxes work, right? Am I gonna am I like what's the w d totally different stress? And I will go back to like you have to be comfortable being
Rachel Elsts Downey (09:11)
Yeah.
Yeah, different stress.
Tom Hootman (09:22)
Asking dumb questions and saying, I don't know. So like my accountant is she's amazing. I've personal accountant now, she's a business accountant. I remember told me a great story kind of like a blanket statement about a lot of business owners out there literally at the end of the month look at how much money's left over and take out as much of that as they can and that's what they pay themselves. And it's like a few hundred dollars and some months it's a few thousand dollars. They look she's like, You're good, Hootman. Like
Rachel Elsts Downey (09:39)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (09:46)
You have structure. And I was like, really? I didn't think it like, wow. We've actually got this kind of figured out in our own way. Yeah. Facts over feelings. So what's one thing that's completely different that you thought life was going to be like that maybe threw you for a curveball when you did jump out on your own?
Rachel Elsts Downey (09:48)
You're like, I did something right?
Yeah, see facts over feelings.
I think that one of the things that I realize now is that I was putting self-imposing limits on myself all along the way because I was scared of outcomes that didn't even exist yet. So little things like, I'm just gonna stay really small or I'm just gonna be a freelancer or I'm just gonna do these things because I didn't wanna have to build a team. Well, it's not that I didn't wanna build a team, it's that I didn't wanna have to be in a position to let people go. So like I was trying to like avoid conflict
We're in like a really interesting season right now where I'm starting to make some different strategic decisions and like I would not have been in a mindset a couple years ago to be able to make some of the decisions I'm making now because it made me too nervous. And so like I've had a hard time committing to things because I didn't want to have to deal with the missing out or the repercussions of making a decision that actually didn't pan out. And so
part of my founder's journey of just trusting yourself, getting the facts, and then making these bets and just committing to the thing that you are making the bet on. That has been a challenge. Yeah, commit to the bit. I love that.
Tom Hootman (11:05)
Commit to the bit. Yeah.
Did you ever feel like you're forced into making those anxious, nervous decisions because of for good reasons, like growth?
Rachel Elsts Downey (11:15)
I think they were all personal reasons. And those personal reasons were coloring the way I marketed it to myself.
Tom Hootman (11:21)
Did you ever have any fear of?
Putting yourself out there and making those commitments out of they're all gonna laugh at me. I'm speaking from my heart here I was always scared to death to go live with the website. I had built these checkpoints in my head. Once the site is is finished, I can go. And then once I have a client conversation, and it was finally like you just need to jump and do it. Because I was like, what if I fail?
Rachel Elsts Downey (11:33)
Mmm.
Tom Hootman (11:41)
This is a better story. It's a fun story. Like whether I fall flat on my face, I crash and burn, I bump into a million walls, I love the story I'll be able to tell. Worth every cent. Maybe. I'm kidding.
Rachel Elsts Downey (11:52)
good. I like that anchor I think for me it was less about fear of people making fun of me. It's interesting you say that because you're so like naturally self-deprecating and so maybe that is just like a defensive mechanism. Yeah, I've never I never worried too much about people making fun of me, but I did worry about not being smart. and so like I didn't want people to think I was dumb.
Tom Hootman (12:02)
a hundred percent.
Rachel Elsts Downey (12:12)
That was always my issue. Like, honestly I went to law school for a couple of years. And the reason I went to law school is to prove that I was smart. And now I'm like, how smart am I? I'm sitting on a pile of student loan debt, not even a lawyer. You know what I mean? So it's like, I feel like we like do these things that you look back and you're like, what was really driving those decisions was like your ego. It was like it was not actually like what I was supposed to be doing or who I actually am. And I think when you're a founder, you you get a weird look at your psyche.
Tom Hootman (12:34)
Yeah.
Rachel Elsts Downey (12:39)
because you're like forced to, like a really weird way.
Tom Hootman (12:41)
Yeah.
The the law school things. You really sh you're kinda like, Well, I really showed them, didn't I? Right? And you're like
Rachel Elsts Downey (12:46)
Yeah,
I'm like, yeah, showed who? Showed myself, you know what I mean? That I'm an idiot for doing this.
Tom Hootman (12:51)
Yeah. I mean, in performance media, ninety-nine percent of people's careers are built on subject matter expertise. And they come up through a channel. Like I was a paid social manager or a paid search manager or an SEO specialist. And I came straight in from the side as a director of sales at Hanapin. And our founder at the time she's like, You don't have to be a mechanic to sell cars.
Rachel Elsts Downey (13:00)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (13:09)
am gonna get training? And then I I didn't realize in hindsight, it's like a this it's not you don't just get trained, right? Like the second you stop like w managing accounts, your skill set starts to atrophy. So always this this imposter syndrome, people are gonna gonna realize I don't know what I'm talking about. And it that's the self deprecation comes from running at that. I'm kind of the
Rachel Elsts Downey (13:09)
Mm-hmm.
It does.
Tom Hootman (13:29)
The guard at the gates, and then the next step we let the smart people in the room. Right. And it's like the subject matter expertise won't live in this conversation. This is a high level conversation about business outcomes and where you're at and what you've experienced. And you you run at that self-deprecating, like, you're talking to the idiot here. It's a defense mechanism, but it's also like part of that fear of like people are gonna think I'm an idiot. Like they're gonna know I'm not smart and I don't know anything about paid search. It's not my job to know everything about paid search.
Rachel Elsts Downey (13:54)
Yeah, I think being a great leader is being incredibly self-aware. And so knowing where you run out and where you need people is one of those key things that I feel like you have to learn. And so for you, if it's like, this is where my journey ends and somebody else begins, that's not you being an idiot. It's actually you being smart because you're bringing in other people who can carry it across the finish line. And that was something like I've had to journey on myself of like,
No, I'm done with this. I need to actually let go of it because I'm not serving the business anymore. I'm serving my ego.
Tom Hootman (14:25)
Do you ever question founders who just run headlong into it and don't have that self-awareness? Like, is that what it really takes to be wildly successful? Like what do they possess that others don't? And like it's the ego, the the sociopath side like of that founder who just like runs through brick walls. And there are times I see people who
Rachel Elsts Downey (14:36)
you
Tom Hootman (14:43)
And of course this is LinkedIn or this is like talking to people. This isn't the truth. This is like their their what they put out. But you're kinda like, Are you really just that that fearless and just like you don't have do you have any self awareness whatsoever? Sometimes I'm I'm like, Do I have too much? Which I guess is self awareness in its own right.
Rachel Elsts Downey (14:56)
Yeah.
And honestly, like, this is so esoteric. So it's like trying to keep this grounded in this. It's like what other people are doing is not my business. And that has been something that I've had to like teach myself and remind myself because you do look at headlines or you do look at what people saying and you play the comparison game. You're like, I guess I'm not going hard enough. I guess I'm not smart enough. I guess I missed this opportunity. And the reality is like
I may not grow a billion dollar company, like maybe that's because that's not my value. Like those aren't the values that I'm associating with like success in business. And so I think that's part of it is like, you have to define success for yourself as a founder and you can't make your success defined by somebody else's definition. Otherwise you're always gonna feel like you're behind or you're gonna feel down about what you're doing.
Tom Hootman (15:41)
Comparison is the thief of joy, as they say.
Rachel Elsts Downey (15:43)
Yeah, and it's so true, and especially in business. Even today, like, I have to remind myself of those things. And I just have to anchor back on like my values, because my values are personal. And they do shade how I show up as a leader and where I start to take the company. So all of these things are like, so intertwined, especially when you're a founder, because you don't just have a job to do.
It's like you're raising a child. It is truly like you are building something that you are attached to, but part of being a founder is detaching from the thing that you built, which is really hard to do.
Tom Hootman (16:15)
You worked at an agency and then you jumped out on your own? How did you end up in this vertical?
Rachel Elsts Downey (16:19)
So what I would call SME, my subject matter expertise at the time, was copy. I knew how to write really good copy. And then because of that, I got into lead gen work and was leading clients at an agency. Anyways, was at law school, had a baby.
And she was born like very, very early. So was like she was born at like 26 weeks and most babies cook for at least 40. So she was very, very early. So she was born very early. So I was living at the NICU and I had a friend reach out to me and asked me to help him promote his podcast and stuff like that because of the background that I had. And
Tom Hootman (16:41)
Thank you for educating me.
Rachel Elsts Downey (16:53)
I said I'll do it because I could do it at any hour of the day and he was going to pay me like 20 bucks an hour. And I was like, done. I can work at 8 p.m., 3 a.m., 7 a.m. It didn't matter. So I started doing that. And because I had all that background doing lead gen campaigns, I was looking at what his podcast was doing for his business and I was blown away. I was like, well, I have never seen anything work this effectively this quickly because it was both a channel and content for his brand. And he was having conversations with people.
that he wanted to learn from and or do business with. So that's kind of how that happened. It's kind of an interesting sort of marriage across all of the experience that I had had up until then because I was a theater student. I understood the power of performance, got into marketing. So I understood story. I was a copywriter. Like all of these things were kind of building throughout my career. I had worked.
with the LPGA and filmed their talent. like, so all of these things were building blocks to then be in this moment of time where he asked me to help. I saw it working. And then I was like, this is something that more brands should be doing. And that's kind of how the ball got started.
Tom Hootman (17:56)
Also, you've just helped unearth like you and I have met and talked a handful of times. And I admittedly, I was like, you were like one of the most engaging people, like you are invested in conversation. And I'm like, she's really good at this. And then you've just like connected all the dots. Like theater, copy, content, storytelling. Okay. Yeah. It's the years of like the journey that you're like, How the hell do you get so good at this? Yeah.
Rachel Elsts Downey (18:01)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
It's just yeah, just the DNA. Yeah.
And I think honestly, leaning into that, I think that's part of the challenge that we run in today is that we have so many people who are overexposed and underdeveloped and we don't give like credence to the scars that people earn. And it's like, well, how did you get there? Let me hack my way to it. And it's like, sometimes it's just living and it's like continuing to pull the thread of what interests you and you start to perfect the thing that you're naturally good at. And I think we need to give more, that's my soapbox moment, but I'm like, we need to give people more
time to develop before we write them off.
Tom Hootman (18:51)
Yeah. It's interesting you bring that up because the other side of that too is like people tend to want to sound like they're smarter or they want to project versus being themselves. And working at a midsized agency that was acquired by a global agency out of London and everyone there was so crazy brilliant and smart and had d the most wonderful accents, right? I was shook for a while. And I had a CEO pulled me aside at we were running through a pitch and
Rachel Elsts Downey (19:01)
Yes.
Hmm.
Tom Hootman (19:16)
I used to get so nervous to just being with coworkers in a Google meet. And he pulled me aside and said, Hey, like, what what do you like stop trying to talk like a marketer and act like a marketer and walk like a marketer? You're not here. They're here to talk about that. You just do you. Your superpower is relationships. Just talk to people. And like that one conversation was like, I'm just gonna do me. And it was like,
Rachel Elsts Downey (19:31)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (19:38)
From that moment on, it just felt like complete 180 because I was like so scared in this shell that wasn't really me. Once you step out of that, people are gonna come and go in your life regardless. You can't trick people. Like you might be able to fool someone short term, but then long term, they're gonna be like, You just talked a really good game. Never mind.
Rachel Elsts Downey (19:44)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
exactly. Well, I think, you it's interesting going back to the early days of Share Your Genius and sort of like the journey as a founder and all that kind of stuff. It's like what I didn't realize I was doing all along was seeking permission. I was waiting for other people to tell me that I was allowed to do the things I wanted to do. And even now, I still do that in some capacities. Maybe the maybe what I'm asking for is different. But I think that's something we all do is like we're looking for validation and seeking permission to just be who we know to be.
And it's a powerful feeling when you start to say, I'm not asking permission anymore. I'm just going to be who I am. But then sitting in a leader's seat, it's like that CEO pulling you aside, like he unlocked you. And so it's like us as leaders looking at our people and going, I need to make sure that they see themselves in the way that I see them so that they don't have to look for permission or validation from me. And they can just be who they're supposed to be.
Tom Hootman (20:42)
No, wonderful. I realized too, you mentioned Share Your Genius We blasted right through that for the uninitiated, what's Share Your Genius? Tell me about it.
Rachel Elsts Downey (20:48)
Yeah, so Shari Genius is a, we're in an evolution, but we're a media company. We primarily work with B2B brands and we handle all of their media production, but we're anchoring all of our strategy on a people first approach. And so for us, that looks like podcast production, thought leadership, and then event capture.
Tom Hootman (21:06)
Event capture. What do you mean by event capture?
Rachel Elsts Downey (21:07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
What I don't mean is that we're the team that you hire to record your sessions and all of that. What I do mean is that we're the team behind the scenes that helps you grab that behind the scenes footage, that content that you wish that you had of your customers, your prospects, the people just being people in a room. That's our job.
Tom Hootman (21:26)
Near and dear to my heart, my friend. Near and dear to my heart. Anytime we we did our photo shoot, and I'm always like, which of you are recording ancillary video of us just being stupid shits? Like that's the gold, right? That's wonderful. A lot of work with podcasts. You started in podcast production, 20 bucks an hour, working whenever you wanted, three in the morning. How many podcasts?
Rachel Elsts Downey (21:34)
Yes.
That's
Tom Hootman (21:46)
different podcasts have you promoted is it hundreds of this thousands? Like
Rachel Elsts Downey (21:50)
Thousands
it's thousands. Yeah, I mean we produce on a monthly basis. We're turning out anywhere between 1,500 and 2,000 episodes a month I mean it's a machine but to me I don't think there's any better bet that a company can make then running a successful podcast and doing it with a North star and a strategy that connects it all together, but it is truly a
Tom Hootman (21:59)
just hearing that.
Rachel Elsts Downey (22:14)
It is one of the best things that you can do for your brand, for discoverability, for building relationships, for creating content that is human focused, not synthetic. There is nothing better.
Tom Hootman (22:25)
You painted a great picture just now of like what the mission and vision in a great podcast should do. Let's talk about the other side of that though. Like what is what is something that like you see podcasts routinely get wrong or people who want to start a podcast and think it's going to be something that it's not? for for someone out there, like what do what do hosts think they're good at that they suck at? Right. Like what is a thing where you're like, everyone does this, stop doing this?
Rachel Elsts Downey (22:32)
Mm-hmm.
Well, I'll, yeah, well, I'll caveat that I'm gonna throw this to the lens of the brands side because creators, hobbyists, people who are looking to actually build and monetize their podcast, those are two different camps. But when you think about it from the brand perspective, a lot of times people sleep on the guest experience as part of.
Tom Hootman (22:48)
And I'll be taking notes as well while you're
Rachel Elsts Downey (23:13)
why the show even exists and what it's doing for your company and your brand. So a lot of times it looks like figuring out guests last minute, not prepping them, not giving them a beautiful experience, not truly being like, I don't mean host like MC, I mean host like as if you're inviting them into your home and like helping them feel like comfortable and connected and all of those kinds of things. That's a big ingredient. And then even after the...
after the event took place, so like the conversation, what are you doing with that guest to help them feel valued and heard and that their time was like spent well? Like that guest experience is so untapped from a potential standpoint. The other thing that I would say a lot of people don't leverage and they should is maximizing their mic time. So you have a guest on your show.
And if you've taken the time to understand why you want that guest on their show, on your show, who they are to your brand, all of that, there might be pieces of our conversation that aren't part of the show because it doesn't fit the premise. But that content should be used and you should be using it on purpose. And so I always encourage our strategic leads who work with our clients to coach their clients on other nuggets they should be mining for.
A, their marketing team will be very, very happy that they have this extra content that is human-based. And B, it's just you're maximizing your leaders' time when they're on the mic and on camera, which is so valuable to get their attention and their focus. And the last thing I'll say is, going back to the guest experience, a lot of times people are thinking about their podcast opportunities as churn and burn. So book them on my calendar, get it in, blah, blah. But then they don't take the time to actually like,
Study and I don't mean you need hours of preparation I don't mean that but like to just get in the right headspace to stop looking at slack like to make sure your phone is not in your eye because You can tell when somebody is on there and they're also trying to check an email and it's like That is disrespectful to everybody. yeah. yeah, and it is like you just can't do that kind of stuff. And so Those are the things that always that have been consistent. And by the way, these are the same things I've been saying
Tom Hootman (25:10)
Does people do that?
Rachel Elsts Downey (25:19)
since Share Your Genius was born, which was almost a decade ago. So AI hasn't changed these bad habits. They still exist.
Tom Hootman (25:27)
That is enlightening because I had someone reach out, old counterpart who's at a new company, and we ended up talking about they might we might work together in one way, shape, or form. He reached out, he'd he'd listened to an episode or watched an ep he watched an episode a few weeks ago and he asked me what my my video setup was because I'm always looking at the camera. And I was like, It's an iMac and I'm just looking at the camera. Like it's like, yeah, like you just you're you're in a much smaller box right below the
Rachel Elsts Downey (25:50)
camera. Yeah.
Tom Hootman (25:54)
camera. So like, and now that you think now that you mention it, now that think about it, like so many people, like it's so easy to be distracted. It's like you give someone your attention for 45 minutes, shouldn't be that hard, but it gets harder every day because all of the content we consume is 45 seconds and no one has the patience. And I like what you said about researching. I think it's a headspace of like knowing we're recording today. I've been thinking about this episode as of like last week. And in spare moments
Rachel Elsts Downey (25:55)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (26:19)
Poking around, looking at the questions again, thinking about what direction, what I should ask. I don't like that question. We're not gonna ask that one. But then also I have a weird thing where everyone knows this if I have a pitch or anything, I cleared 30 minutes before. I cannot run from one to another because I need to like sit with myself and size all my windows and like think through and like almost like prepare for the pitch or the podcast. And I think a lot of people are just bang, bang, bang, bang.
Rachel Elsts Downey (26:34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (26:45)
The best way to get on podcasts is to start a podcast because there's constantly people asking me to be on podcasts. And I've been on some great ones. And also near and dear to my heart, I will take my shoe off and bang it on this desk. Like the the guest experience, the analogy I've always used, and I use it with clients and with pitches, is like you walk into a new restaurant and you don't know if it's sit-down, host, stand, counter service. Is it counter service? You need a sign that says order here.
Pick up your order here. Like you you have to like guide the guest on how the experience works here, which means sending advance information, checking back in with them, getting on the calendar, letting them know there's gonna be a calendar invite, there'll be a link in it. Because those are the things that people like, I don't know what to do with my hands. Because I've gotten invited on podcasts where I literally got zero advance warning. And then they're like, What do you think about the AI's impact on marketing industry in the short and long term? And I'm like,
Rachel Elsts Downey (27:15)
Yes.
Tom Hootman (27:34)
We're heavy hitter right out of the gates. I don't know, dude. It's nine AM. Like I'm I'm halfway through the energy. Yeah.
Rachel Elsts Downey (27:35)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's inconsiderate, honestly.
And I don't think it's a negative. I don't think people are doing this intentionally, but I think that's my point, is that if you're going to have a podcast and how you use it and how you measure success is something we can talk about. But if you're going to ask somebody to spend their time with you, then make sure that you honor the time they spend with you. And to your point earlier of like 45 minutes versus 45 seconds,
Well, that's just distribution. That's a different, that's a completely different way of thinking about the content and how you're using it and how people find content. But I'm talking literally about the time that you spend with that person and making sure that you've created the space for yourself. And if you don't have the time to do it, maybe you shouldn't, or maybe somebody else should do it. And now you have a gift of being a conversationalist, like you're good on your feet, like you can do this thing and make people feel comfortable. Some people don't have that gift.
And so that's the other thing that brands have to consider is like, who should be the host? Maybe it's not the CEO. Maybe it's not the CMO. Like who should it actually be? And that determination might define how you shape the format of your show. It might define how you define success. Like there's some of these just like ingredients that people don't think through fully when they sign up to launch a show or run a podcast.
And then when it doesn't take off in the way that they thought that it would, you can kind of look back and go, well, you made some decisions at the beginning that set you up to fail and or the way you defined it from the beginning based on the ingredients you have set you up to evaluate this as a failure. So that's kind of the framing that might be helpful.
Tom Hootman (29:14)
Do you think that gets back to what we talked about in the intentionality of like walking in with zero expectations versus people thinking outcome based immediately? Like this is how many leads we want to drive with this podcast. I laugh when I say it, 'cause it's not about that, right? Like that rigid and maybe again why the CEO, not just CMO, C suite, because they don't have the time, but also because they are taught from day one to think like, what are we going to get out of this? And in a lot of ways, it's it's the wrong frame of mind.
Rachel Elsts Downey (29:40)
Yes, and it could be okay. Like, let's just run a scenario. And I'll run it from my perspective, because I'm a small business owner. And if it's not driving impact, I'm probably not going to do it. Like, unless I just like don't believe in it, you know what I mean? Or I just believe in it and want to do it anyway. But when it comes to marketing, and I hired my first VP of marketing this year, which was like a big deal for me. And so when I look at how we're spending our time, I am going to go how many SQLs did we generate?
What is this doing for the company? So thinking about it from the lens of the podcast, if we are running a podcast and our theory of victory for the podcast is that we want to build relationships with people that we wouldn't have access to otherwise, my question isn't how many leads do we generate, but it is going to be what's the quality of guest? What content did we create that's helping us generate interest from an inbound perspective?
Is that person a competitor? Why are they on the show? Or is that person somebody who could buy from us? Or is that somebody who could connect us to people who could buy from us? That's a valuable worth of your hour of time. So to your point, it's not like one to one, but it like, it should be helping you tell a story of how time is being spent. And most of the time, when you're talking to like a CEO or a CMO or whatever, you're asking the question of like, shouldn't you be talking to your clients anyway? Shouldn't you be talking to your team anyway?
Shouldn't you be talking to people who could buy from you anyway? Well, yes, yes, and yes. Then why are you not creating a system in which you're actually capturing that and leveraging it for content? That's what a podcast ultimately can be, if nothing else.
Tom Hootman (31:08)
Well back in the day it was a blog, right? Like when I first got in this business, PPC Hero was this huge blog, and everyone came to us because we were experts. And those were bait could have been carved in stone tablets at this point. That was so long ago. There's it's like what leading indicators you talked about KPIs, you talked about SQLs. When someone's starting, like what should you be tracking? What are vanity metrics? What are the anecdotal like references that you should pick up on? What do you measure?
Rachel Elsts Downey (31:10)
Yeah, same. Yeah.
So I anchor everything in really two types of framing, a metrics of success versus metrics of performance. Metrics of performance are gonna be things like downloads, consumption, those types of things that you can pull from your podcast hosting platform. And they help you understand what ways to move the needle. So for example, if my downloads, and I'll go to success here in a second, but from a performance perspective, if my downloads are really high,
like I'm consistently growing my downloads month over month when I drop episodes, but my consumption is low, like less than 50%, maybe even less than 30%, then I might be marketing to the wrong person or my content sucks. So it's like you look at that to help you understand like what you need to do to kind of flip the script. Downloads are not a metric of success. They're data that help you understand
whether or not what you're doing is resonating, what you're doing is reaching the right audience, like those types of things. And then what you're really wanting to look at from a brand standpoint is like, how much time are people spending with my brand? Because that's a good indicator that they know you, they like you, they're gonna probably buy from you one day. Like those are the things that I'm looking at. And now let's flip the script and let's say your downloads are plateauing and your consumption is really high.
That tells me we have a marketing opportunity. We should probably put some paid media behind this. We should probably grow this a little bit because the people that show up are sticking around and they're loving it. So that's kind how I think about things from a performance standpoint. And that's how a partner with your show, like whether that's in internally or you outsource that, that's how they should be helping you think through the opportunity for your podcast. When it comes to success, though, success comes from the brand.
It comes from the bet that you're willing to make. And success could look like, I want to grow our website traffic. Okay, well then if that's a metric of success, then the podcast needs to support that growth. Meaning we need to understand what your SEO strategy is. We need to understand how you're showing up in AI. We need to understand what content best performs. We need to understand if your podcast content can fit within your existing content so that we're like leveraging it that way. that's kind of how
you have to think about a podcast. If somebody comes in and says, I'm trying to run this as an ABM play, you say, okay, well then we're gonna look at whether or not our outreach is creating the output we wanna see. So because of the show, were we able to bridge the gap for the people that we wanted to target anyway and build a relationship? And then from the conversation on the podcast, were we able to convert any of those into a second conversation that had to do with the business, not the podcast?
So that's kind of a way to think about it.
Tom Hootman (34:06)
What about downloads versus subscribers?
Rachel Elsts Downey (34:07)
Depends on your goal. But I would say if you're looking at growing your YouTube channel, you're gonna want more subscribers than downloads. And again, it all comes back down to that. But subscribers are a conversion event. And I would be looking at that as a, are we growing? Yes, and to the right. Is our content resonating? That consumption number is going up, time spent with brand, and are they taking the intended action? If that intended action is subscribe,
then I better see those numbers going up and to the right.
Tom Hootman (34:36)
One thing I didn't really think too much about that I that has consistently come through discovery calls that I sit in on that I'm a part of is how many people vibe check us via the podcast. Like it's
Rachel Elsts Downey (34:48)
Yes.
Tom Hootman (34:48)
It's a fantastic way. Like they they may watch five seconds, five minutes, they may watch every single episode. But I've like four out of the last five discovery calls, someone's mentioned. It's and it's either a joke, like I feel like I'm on the podcast right now because I'm always sitting right here in my office. Or they say, hey, like I listen to the podcast or I watch the podcast. They make a comment about it and you start to realize, wait, like they're vetting us. It's a way for them to vet, are they really a fit before they reach out? Which actually
Rachel Elsts Downey (35:01)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (35:14)
leaps you forward sometimes, hopefully five, 10, 15 steps in the process and makes the conversation because when you jump into these calls and everything the lights come up for a discovery call or a client call, no one, you're like, is this person gonna be cool? They're gonna be a dick, is it gonna be awkward? They don't know how to have a conversation. And I think people run it through the filter and like this should be fun. Because it goes back to like the thing, I just want to have fun. Right. If we can, grow this business and it's awesome, great. But if I can grow it and also have fun and we work with great people, home run.
Rachel Elsts Downey (35:33)
100%. Yes.
Home run.
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (35:42)
hundred percent
of the time. To me, that's like the the first and foremost thing. The second thing, I keep talking about blogs and I I why, but like there is the whole you're gonna scream into the wind and no one's going to be listening. And I keep the the self deprecating thing like I've told some of the I like, hey, don't worry, no one's watching or listening anyway. Right. Like there's this element of like we're just like it's just you and I. No one else is no one's gonna see this, which is kind of a lie because people do watch it and people do listen, but you have to like
Rachel Elsts Downey (36:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (36:11)
steep yourself in the reality of if this were twenty twelve when you started a blog, you're gonna you're gonna post every single it's like it's regimented, it's scheduled, and you're not gonna get anything from it until you do. Potentially.
Rachel Elsts Downey (36:23)
It's compounding.
Honestly, this is the line I always say is I'm like, what's the eighth wonder of the world? And people are like, I don't know. It's compounding interest. In marketing, it's compounding trust. And so your job as a marketer is to create opportunities to compound trust so that when people go to buy, they've already decided that it's going to be you. And the way that we know buyers vet, and this has been happening over the last decade, so this isn't like brand new information, but it's like we go check each other out.
We go see like, are they about? What's their personality? What are their values? Do I know? Do I like them? Like it comes back down to like human connection. And that's why I always say there's nothing better than a podcast because it's never just a podcast. So even if no one ever listens to this, like from a downloads perspective, but somebody hears your story, Tom, on like founder and they resonate with that. Now they want to hire your agency. That's a win for you. And you may never know, but it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't.
And the other piece of it is like you creating content keeps you relevant. Because to your point earlier, when you're not in the client work every day, your muscles do atrophy. But when you have conversations with people, you learn, you just do. And so it's like, all comes back down to this like, there is like the stats that help you understand performance and success. There are the sayings. So what people say to you about the show that kind of keep you the motivation to keep going.
and all of them are relevant.
Tom Hootman (37:44)
You remind me of of yet another old school outside sales saying that I was taught years ago. It's easy work to do, but it's hard work to make yourself do. Like there's an element of like you you the with the other one was like the hardest door to open is the one to your car. Like you just gotta like go knock on the door. Just go. Like, just show up. It's it really is like 90% is just showing up and and understanding that.
Rachel Elsts Downey (37:52)
Yeah.
Yeah. Just go. Yeah, just show up. Yeah.
Yes.
Tom Hootman (38:07)
It's almost like you're creating a physical record of your existence, right? For that someone can like open the tomes if they're looking at agencies and be like, let's see. Yeah, let's talk to them. And it could be an episode from six months ago, right? Because I do the same thing when I listen to podcasts or watch a podcast, is I scroll through and I look for a guest. And it could be a year ago. Because some podcasts, I'm like, ooh, they talked to this person. That looks interesting. Yeah, let's go for it.
Rachel Elsts Downey (38:15)
Yeah, honestly.
That's one. Which
is why you can't look at downloads as your metric of success. Because I might be a dabbler because I'm vetting to buy from you. It doesn't mean I'm gonna listen to your show all the time. I have enough content to consume. We all do, right? So it's like, if you're measuring it on that, you're not measuring it in a way that actually moves the needle for your company. Which is also why I caveated to say this is not for creators looking to monetize and be influencers, all of that.
This is what I'm talking about, the brand experience and how you get people to buy from you. And it comes down to what am I using to build trust? And a podcast is by far the best way to do it.
Tom Hootman (39:06)
This is just a one big trust fall.
Rachel Elsts Downey (39:08)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (39:08)
Two more questions for you, and I promise I'll cut you loose. You've been doing this a while, even though you're only 22.
Rachel Elsts Downey (39:11)
Great.
Mm-hmm.
Yep, yep, totally.
Tom Hootman (39:18)
what's a belief you held earlier in your career that you think might be bullshit now?
Rachel Elsts Downey (39:21)
that you have to prove yourself.
like proving yourself is so performative. It's for other people. It's like, it goes back to our conversation at the beginning where it's like ego. I mean, it sounds so cliche, but like you're already enough. You're already good enough. How you channel your energy, how you do that is up to you. That's part of the game of life. But you don't have to prove shit to anybody.
Tom Hootman (39:41)
You don't to prove shit to anybody. I love that. Last question I ask everyone this question. It's one of my favorites, might be my favorite. It's Mixtape Digital. I worked at a music land, Sam Goody, back in the day in the mall. So, like I mean, there's a boom box right here. I am all about music. And so I love to ask if if there was a playlist for your career that only had two or three songs on it. What are those two or three songs and why?
Rachel Elsts Downey (39:43)
Mm-hmm.
This is hard.
a Hamilton mixtape. One Shot would be a song on there. The song is basically like, don't miss your opportunities like that. So that would be one. And I would say my career has shown up that way because I've just gone after things without knowing the outcome and felt good about that. That would be one. And then I would say another one.
Man, this is hard.
Honestly, other two songs that come to mind, actually there's three, okay? And this will just give you my mindset. One is like I used to listen to this every single time I was getting ready to take a test in law school is Eminem, Phenomenal, that song. So was like my hype song.
Tom Hootman (40:42)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Rachel Elsts Downey (40:44)
And then the other one is Imagine Dragons Thunder. That would be one. And then the last one is, I think it's Panic at the Disco, who I don't totally love, but I love to the song of, man, what is that song? Where it's like gonna be one in a million. Whatever the hook is on that song. Those would be my songs.
Tom Hootman (41:02)
Love those songs. No, that's
Rachel Elsts Downey (41:02)
Cause you gotta like, you gotta keep it going, the motivation, like you need it.
Tom Hootman (41:06)
I asked that question because you give it gives you a a glimpse into that path, right? The scars. And like people like when like you mentioned a musical, Panic at the disco, Imagine Dragons. Everyone tends to do that thing where they're like you you realize just how all over the board everyone is at different periods in their life. And there's always like two to four answers that you can almost see the trajectory of like how they're
Rachel Elsts Downey (41:23)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (41:29)
mentality and musical taste has like changed over the years, but it's still important to them. I love it.
Rachel Elsts Downey (41:33)
Yeah, that's
a cool question. Yeah, love it.
Tom Hootman (41:36)
Rachel, thank you so much for making time. I feel like we could have talked for three hours, but I don't have three hours in me and I'm gonna be exhausted after because that's the other thing people don't realize is how exhausting it is. When you're hosting, you've gotta thread it together. sometimes the only time available is like four PM and I am fucking gassed. Thank you for being on the show. It means a lot to me. I really appreciate it.
Rachel Elsts Downey (41:45)
Yes.
for having me.
This was fun. Appreciate you.
Tom Hootman (41:54)
Awesome. Thanks.