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Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, and most importantly, find joy.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
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Ride free.
Welcome back rockers
and fellow horse nerds.
Live free, ride free.
I've got Dominique Barbier today.
If you know who he is, then my
introduction will be superfluous.
But if you don't know who he is, he's
sort of one of the grand seigneurs
of dressage in the last few decades.
He's an exponent, he may correct me
on this, of the French-Portuguese
style of dressage, which is
the same one that I practice.
And he's written numerous books
many of which have influenced
many people, including myself.
He operates out of California
but is of course French and
teaches all over the world.
And his philosophies around what
this whole dressing of a horse
business means have, I would say,
had a positive effect on beginning to
Unstick some of the more rigid approaches
that have beset this thing that we all
love so much, and sort of have, you know,
affected people more positively and he-
help them take a wider view, while at
the same time, you know, paying attention
to the accuracies of the dance itself.
So I'm very excited to have him, and as
long-winded as that was it's good that
you sort of know that he's not just
a horse trainer and a people trainer
and, you know, an exponent of the art.
He's also, I would say, helped move
the whole thing forward ethically.
So, Dominique, thank you
for coming on the show.
I probably got a lot of stuff wrong there
but that's sort of how my perception is.
Can you tell us in your words who you
are, what do you do, why you do it?
Dominique Barbier: Well, first of all,
thank you, Rupert, to, to have me.
That's always a, a great pleasure for me
to talk about what I do because, as you
do, it is something that we enjoy, and
then we want to, to spread the good words.
Therefore, that's always a wonderful
thinking to be able to talk about it.
Who am I?
That's a very good question.
I am not sure really, to tell
you the truth, what, who I am.
I am what I am.
Therefore it is a, aâ¦
I, I was a chance w- I have a lot of
chance in my life when I was a little boy
to be able to do my, my work with horses.
I got great help from my dad, who
allow me to do this, which was not
a regular sort of job in France
for a young man like I, I was.
But he let me do my passion, and and I
I thank him in all my books every time.
I, I, I, I just thank him to have let
me do what I wanted to do, which kind
of- Little rare and and, and enjoyable.
Therefore very early on I was
somebody fascinated by the, by the
horses and, and very early on I had a
different kind of vision on the world.
I- it's kind of tough to talk about
yourself, as you know, because it's
it's, you, you don't see yourself very
much like everybody sees you, thank God.
And I was kind of a little weird kid.
I always had a, had a possibility to see
things differently on two different level.
I had some sort of a foot in one
world and foot in this other world.
And it was kind of very uncomfortable
as a kid, to tell you the truth, but
getting used to it and, and after
that learned to work with it and
this world of of the unknown that
that very few people speak about
because they are kind of afraid of it.
I was a young kid and I had a lot of
problem because I, I I saw things and
I heard things and I, and I sort of
see things with my horses that nobody
was very much aware of at that time.
Just to, to have a little
fun note- Can you give us
some examples of that?
Yeah
Dominique Barbier: example, well,
I, I, I think there was another
dimension to the horses that really
the, the regular work with horses did
not let anybody approach or touch.
Something that is was very strange to
me because it was so, natural and so
real to me that I could not understand
why nobody else could see that.
When I was in England, for
example, my horses were light.
They were too light.
Which is, it's kind of
a really funny thing.
Technically speaking, they were
horses were, were too light because
even now a lot of people think that
they measure how forward the horse
is by the weight he has in your
rein, which is completely a nonsense.
But even now, even the, the people
who are more educated think that if
they don't feel something in your
hand some sort of heavy for a young
horse, then this horse is not forward,
which is a completely wrong concept.
But anyway, therefore very early on I
had this very different feel- feelings
how you have to breathe with your horse
and how you do have to look at them
and not look at them, all those little
codes that, that the horses teach you.
And they, they, they tell you
what they like and they tell
you what they don't like.
Mm.
And of course I, I I study and
I was a very good student by
the way that I wanted to do.
W- whoever I study with, I wanted
to do what they were doing because
that's what I was there for.
Mm.
I was learning their stuff.
Therefore, I learn a lot of thing
that I did not wanted to do I, I
learned a lot of stuff that that
was I was very successful at it.
I enjoyed it.
It was great, but, but that was really
something that was missing and something
that I, that I deeply did not like.
Therefore, I, I went through my study,
this a little bit of my of my first book,
you know, Dressage of the New Age- Mm
⦠that that was kind of a notebook for all
that time, and and just go through a lot
of different trainings, a lot of hunting
in England, a lot of racing in France,
and, and steeplechasing and, and all- Mm
those, you know, polo and,
and jumping, and name it.
I, I wanted to do it all.
And, and I did it all a little bit
just to know that I did not want
it to do, to, to do it that way.
Therefore, that was my my concept of that.
Just a little note, recently I w-
was, I am involved with the the, the
University of Arizona, and with this,
with a wonderful group of people
who are mathematicians, believe it
or not, and as you know, I am not
too much of a mathematician myself.
But they are absolutely wonderful people
that study everything every animal
possible, and make everything into an
equation, mathematic equation, that they
can help with boats and submarine and
plane and, and medicine and all that
stuff just by mathematician things.
And my, my, my good friend there is
really involved into, into horses,
and wants to do a lot more things.
Therefore, now we are riding horses
with astronauts to, to see, to, to
see how your, your heartbeat is going,
and to see how your, your, your mind
is acting or not you know, what's
happening to your body when you ride.
And then they take measurements,
measurements of the horses, measurements
of the people, and if something change,
if they can detect a change, that
mean that scientifically it exist.
The- therefore, the, the funny little
guy in the, in the, in the late '60s
or early '70s that I was thinking
all those little crazy things happen
to be scientifically correct now,
which I think is kind of funny.
It does not it doesn't change me too,
too much, but for a lot of people I think
it's gonna change, because scientifically
speaking, It is proven now that there's
so many thing who are changing on the mind
level, not on a physical level, but the
physical and the mental level coming up.
Therefore, it's a, it's a, it's a really
a very interesting travel to do this.
A little bit like when, when the la-
when the Dalai Lama wanted to, to have
all those doctors just studying how
those monk meditate in Tibet and what's
happening actually when somebody meditate
and how this, this, these spiritual
levels that has never explored start
to be now very much of a scientific
level and more understanding about it.
Therefore it's a sort of a good thing
to, to, to think that everybody is,
is looking in the right direction.
Of course, not fast enough.
You know that 99% of the, of what people
do with horses is purely physical and,
and, and was and is purely physical
for so many, many dozens of years.
And it's just starting to think that
maybe there's something else there.
May- maybe-
I have a question for you.
Yes.
What did you feel when you say you were
this funny little guy back in the '70s?
What did you feel was
going on in the mind?
A- and what are the measurements
now from the University of
Arizona showing That confirms that
Dominique Barbier: Well, there is a, a,
the, your, your, your, your breathing,
for example, is very important because
as you know in all the thinking
of you know, theory of relaxation,
the breathing is very important.
Mm-hmm.
And, and the breathing for me was,
was very very interesting as a kid.
Mm.
I, I, I was doing a lot of experiment
with my breathing, and that, that's,
that allow me now to have a, to,
to be able to be obliged to sleep
with a, with a sleeping machine
because I just taught my body to stop
breathing, and that's not a good thing.
Your body should breathe and
should should function properly.
Therefore all the feeling that, that
when you think something you, you know,
the, what people think that your horse
anticipate, your horse do not anticipate.
Your horse simply read your mind.
Simply he is watching the
picture that you send him.
He is he is the visualization of what
you want, is, is as real as a, as a,
as a, as in the other world of kicking
and banging and pushing and forcing.
So you were talking about when y- for
example, just so I get this right-
Dominique Barbier: Yes
⦠you correct me if I'm wrong back in the
'70s or so forth, when you were beginning
to, you, you were working with horses in
England, and I'm gonna ask you why England
in a moment given that you were coming out
of France, would it not have been easier
to stay within the French tradition?
But just maybe-
Dominique Barbier: Well, I can
tell- Yeah ⦠I can tell you, I c-
I can tell you that very quickly.
Okay.
Dominique Barbier: I, I, I went to
England because my dad wanted me to
be p- professional and have diplomas,
and at that time in, in Europe, the
British Horse Society was the only
group of people that were actually
giving you professional diplomas
at that, that point.
Ah, got it.
That's fine.
Got it.
Got it.
That's fine.
Yeah, the French were not
doing it at that point.
Got it.
Okay.
So, y- you're there, and it's all very
biomechanical, but you're having these
ideas about visualization and getting
some results with this, as well as
with the actual physical techniques.
But presumably, this is falling, to some
degree, on deaf ears w- at least within
the equestrian community at the time.
But now, and, and, and the way you, you,
you were, you were experimenting with
ways to breathe and ways to visualize,
can you tell us a little bit, put us
back in the shoes of that young man on
that horse in England back in that time.
What are you visualizing?
How are you changing your breathing?
And what effects did you notice?
Dominique Barbier: Well, as I
told you before, it was kind
of a pretty natural to me.
Therefore, oh, goodness,
how can I express that?
Maybe I can express that
from the very beginning.
Where I decide to to go to, to,
to be a professional, and my dad
allow me to go back to England
to Crabbet Park to do a assistant
structure of British Horse Society.
Okay.
And at that time I, I was
n- not knowing very much.
I just was going there.
And what happened there was that I
was able to ride horses in England.
There was a kind of a pony you
know, the pony club type of things.
Mm-hmm.
I was very, very bored.
And, and I went to see the, the top man
there, the, the, the man who, who, who
went to school, and I said, "You know,
at, at 11:00 o'clock in the morning you,
you have a course that I'm willing to
give a lesson that is really interesting.
Can I join in?"
And he was surprised.
He looks at me and he
said, "Well, of course."
And I did not know at that time
it was a course for the fellowship
of the British Horse Society.
At that time there were only
12 people with this with this
exam, and they were top, top
professional that wanted to do this.
Therefore, I did not know that.
I sat on my little horse and they were
talking about doing the shoulder in and
the haunches in and blah, blah, blah.
And my English was very minimum,
but I could figure it out.
And then in the middle of the lesson
I heard, "Oh, look at the frog."
Well, the frog I know that was me.
And a- and they stop and they look at
me, and they asked me how I was doing
that, and I said, "Well, you asked
me to do this, that's what I do."
Therefore, I had a lot of very instinctive
things- Mm ⦠happening there.
Got it.
Dominique Barbier: And it was very
natural, and I did not understood it.
Now, when I became pr- professional, I
had a nine-month where I could not ride,
and I will tell you why, and I discover a
lot of things there why I could not ride.
Is because I wanted to know what
was happening with me, exactly the
question that you, that you asked
me, "What, what was happening there?"
I did not know.
Mm.
Dominique Barbier: And when I started
to ask myself what was happening if I
become pr- professional, I was authentic
enough to know that I had to figure it
out, and I basically could not figure it
out, and I could not ride anymore because-
When you say you couldn't ride, you
couldn't put your foot in the stirrup, or
when you got up there you found yourself
at a loss, or you just found yourself a
bit like a writer with writer's block,
feeling that you couldn't approach
the horse until you figured this out?
Dominique Barbier: Exactly.
All, and all of that
Mm-hmm
⦠Dominique Barbier: all, all together.
It was a simply thing that I was
putting, as I say now, now that I
could explain what happened to me, I
was putting my- Mm ⦠my intellectual
brain between me and the horse, and
you, you stop every- everything.
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: If you, if you, if you,
if you think at the time that when you
are riding in your intellectual mind, it
just cut, cut the whole system together.
Yes.
I think I, I, I would, I wouldâ¦
I could hear, I can sort of hear in
my mind the dissenters, the naysayers
to that saying, "What do you mean?"
You know, "I go for my dressage ride
and/or I go for my jumping ride, and
my instructor, you know, talks to me
through the little thing in my ear, and
micromanages every moment of my ride, and
I go and get my ribbon at the dressage
event, or I, you know, at my jumping
event, so therefore it's working for me."
And although I can think of a lot of
things to say to that I think it's just
worth playing devil's advocate, because
people are coming at this, I think, for
the right reasons and with in good faith.
They're trying to ride well.
They're trying to do right by their horse.
They're trying to seek out the
best mentorship they can, and of
course, inevitably, like many forms
of modern mentorship, it ends in
the intellectual and the physical.
And they are getting results.
Now, okay, perhaps they look a little
stiff, perhaps they l- look a little
robotic, perhaps they look a little
cramped, perhaps they look a little
stressed, but they are getting results.
So when you say something
like you are saying, You
Dominique Barbier: don't,
can I, can I interrupt
⦠how do you reassure the listener- Can I-
that is saying, "But I, but
I'm trying so hard, Dominique."
You know what I mean?
It r- just speak to that, if you would.
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
I, I can, I wanted to interrupt you there.
Mm.
It depends what, what the success
of your learning is for you.
Mm.
Dominique Barbier: If you, if you
are happy with the, with the blue
ribbon, and the, and the banging,
and the pushing, and the kicking- Mm
there is sp- there is space for that.
Mm.
Like, there, there is space for fast food.
Mm.
There, there is space for, for, for the
world that we're living now, and we are-
Mm ⦠seeing that all the time now.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I just want to say there's,
there's space for something else.
And, and, and that, and I
think it's not fair to- Yeah
To, to, to, to put one
different than the other.
Mm-hmm.
If you want a, if, if, if you
want a burger, you eat a burger.
If you want to, to, to eat
fast food, you eat fast food.
If you want to have a, a, a, a, a Michelin
star or, or, or, or, or your grandmother's
favorite dish, that's what you have.
Mm-hmm.
It's a different, it's a
different approach on life.
Mm-hmm.
This is not a matter of
success or no success.
It is not a matter of what it is,
it's, it's the way you, you feel, and-
This is, this is, this- Thanks for
clarifying that because I, I do feel
that that helps people to understand that
there's no right or no wrong here, no,
no hierarchy of, you know, you're gonna
be con- sent to the seventh realm of
Tartarus if you ride, if you accidentally
hit your horse too hard with your mouth
or your, in the mouth or with your
legs or something, that it's, it'sâ¦
Or if you want to ride biomechanically,
that there's anything somehow
morally wrong with that.
Because I think- Well, well, well- ⦠I
think so much- Well, Rupert, Rupert
⦠within the last five years or so,
people have begun to talk in that way.
Dominique Barbier: Rupert,
can I, can I interrupt you?
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: Can I interrupt you?
Please.
If, if riding a horse is
to have your partner happy-
Mm
⦠Dominique Barbier: like they say, they,
they, they, they, it's even in the
rule all what we are talking about now-
Mm ⦠is, is, is not really relevant.
Because if your goal is to have your
horse happy, you understand- Mm ⦠that
everything you do on top of him
physically, ge- generally he doesn't like.
Mm.
And we have 90%, I spend 90% of my
time trying to be out of his way.
Mm.
And then 10% after the 90% to try
to help him, if I think I can.
But that helping stuff before, leave them,
leaving them alone I don't think is to my
knowledge of relationship, is not correct.
If you have a relationship,
have your partner happy.
Mm-hmm.
And your horse will tell you that.
Your horse will tell you.
People, people ask me all those
complicated question, and I always
say do your horse like, like it?"
Yeah
Dominique Barbier: I mean, do,
do, do your horse like spurs?
Do you, do your horse like half holes?
Do your horse like all those
things that you do to him?
Mm.
No, he doesn't.
Mm.
No, he doesn't.
And, and, and, and again, people start
to, to try to put it into a very higher
level of technique of this and that.
Mm-hmm.
And, and you know, you, you are talking to
somebody who had a, a collection of spurs.
I have 300 spurs
in my collection.
Yes.
I was very much in, in my spurs and
very much into my stuff, and I really
regret it very much because- Mm
my horses were not happy,
and I was not happy.
Mm.
But I did, but I did not
know at, at that time.
I think, I think, I, I think that
we, to, to, to carry on the, the,
the, the, the way I'm thinking about
this, it is a matter of who you
are and what you're looking for.
Therefore, it's not aâ¦
If you want to be an
Olympians, go right ahead.
I have good addresses for you
and good horses that, that
will produce this for you.
Now, don't talk to me about
happy happy people and happy
horses, because they're not.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I get, I get you.
Now, let's go the other extreme-
Yes ⦠because as you know,
monkeys, that's us, tend to think
in extremes to our detriment.
And so I would say that in the last five
years in particular, I've noticed in the
course of the conversations that I've,
you know, been part of, that there's
become a drift towards the other extreme,
people reacting against the biomechanical
push and kick and pull, to the extent
that now y- there's a rising camp saying
you may not even touch the horse, Yes
unless the horse has somehow emailed
you- Yes ⦠his consent, which I
don't know how he's going to do that.
And- Therefore, it's reached a sort
of a, an extreme where people can find
themselves almost in a state of paralysis.
And of course, the, the middle
ground in between of relationship
is more fluid than that, and murkier
than that, and messier than that.
W- if it's, if it's, if that is true
with humans to humans, and horses to
horses, when we observe horses in their
herd dynamics, they're sometimes at
peace with each other, and sometimes
not, and sometimes they're nice to each
other, and sometimes they're shitty to
each other, and some- They go through
all of the same stuff that we do.
But yet they have a, like us,
they have a sort of a, a basic
stasis of, "This is our culture."
Particularly when, you know, they can
live in somewhat naturalistic settings.
How do we balance the extreme that you
were reacting to and that is still there,
with the extreme that I just talked about,
which is I think a rising extreme, and
hit that middle ground of happiness?
What, what do you, what
do you say to that?
Dominique Barbier: Well, I think extreme
extreme, I think that, that, that's
the, as you say, that's the world right
now in politics and in, in everything.
Again, it's a very personal thing.
Mm.
You, you are I don't know you, your
life, Rupert, very, very much, but
because of the circumstances, you,
you, you got a kid who was autistic,
and that, that, that make you change
your life in a, in a very deep way.
Mm-hmm.
Well, why do we consider horses autistic?
Mm.
Why do we consider ourself au- autistic?
And then, and, and then should
we should we touch them?
Should we hold them?
Should we compress them?
Should we talk to them, not talk to them?
You know, I mean, all those, all those
questions are very personal and very
unique to the person and to the situation.
Therefore, as a teaching
method- Mm ⦠there is extreme.
I mean, not, you know, not very long
time, I, I hate to say that, but the,
you know, the, the, the, the, the,
th- this wonderful movie about the
guy that invented the bomb, you know.
And, a- and, and and the, the Queen
apologized because they persecuted,
because the poor guy was gay at that
time, and, and that was considering
like an awful, terrible thing to do.
Mm.
Therefore, we are, we are learning
in the world of, of people who are
different and, and, and, and have
different relationship with the world,
with themself, with with the thing.
It doesâ¦
I think it's a human experience.
Therefore, the more, the more-
Yeah.
I, I, I think your, your, your
point about autism's an interesting
one because definitely it changed
my approach to everything.
Dominique Barbier: Of course.
As it, as it would.
But one of the things it did was,
this is why I asked the question
of that middle line, because, for
example, I'm big on finding mentorship.
If I don't know something, I will try
to find people that do and learn from
them, similar to, you know, to you.
And so for example, when I was in this
position with my son and could not reach
him, and I observed that the therapists
that were working with him also could
not reach him, I thought, "Well,
okay, then a mentor is needed here.
What qualities must that mentor have?"
That mentor must be autistic, because
otherwise it's just a set of opinions.
Yes.
That mentor must have s- had the
particular, or must have the particular
type of autism that my son does, which
means that at three they must have
been, you know, non-verbal, shitting
themselves, and harming themselves.
And then they must have made it.
Who, who's that person?
And I found that person, actually.
That's Dr.
Temple Grandin in, at, you know,
the univers- Colorado State
University and- Yeah ⦠you know,
that's her, that's her trajectory.
So I actually just went to her and
said, "How does my son become you?"
And m- meaning that it's not enough for
somebody to remain where they are in the
world, because if my son had remained
like that, he would not have survived.
In, in the wild he would have died.
Yeah.
So how does my son, who's downstairs, by
the way cleaning up the kitchen before he
takes himself off into the German town of
Wiesbaden for the day, who's just flown
over here from Texas by himself- ⦠who
just sold his house last year, who has
his own car, who's, who's got a couple
of jobs and, you know, this same, that's
the same y- he's the now young man of 26.
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
It, he, how do you teach somebody
the, the practical, the life skills
that they're going to need to
survive and thrive on the planet?
And the same with a horse.
How do you give a horse
that life insurance?
Because of course it is a domesticated
animal, and you may very well pass
that horse on to somebody else.
Yeah.
And you want that horse
to have a good outcome.
So if you have just a private
language between yourself and
that horse, well, that's great as
long as it's just the two of you.
But of course, as soon as
that equation go, you know.
So we need something more universal
where that horse can find- Yes ⦠you
know, security at the very least.
And then a- after that we can talk about
happiness and quality of life, because
there will be a life to make quality.
But if there is no life,
then it's, it's irrelevant.
So th- this is really my question
with the, so, so that, that,
that, d- my worldview got very
affected by this, that, yes, you're
right, it's, it's very personal.
One has to design the approach
individually, and yet at the same
time there are universals, which
is, you know, the nervous system
and the brain is paradoxical.
It's at once very, very individual,
and at once it's also very universal.
So there are rules of thumb one can
follow, and then we tweak it to theâ¦
And that is where I think something like
the French Portuguese system is so good
because I feel it has that flexibility.
It allows for that.
It gives one a sort of a framework for a
horse and a human to come into a state of
coherence, and then wherever you go with
that is wherever you want to go with that.
But a little bit like, let's say
you want to learn, I don't know,
salsa, or you want to learn karate.
There are someâ¦
Or you want to learn piano.
There are some steps of the dance or
ways to do your finger on the keyboard
or on the fretboard of the guitar
that if you learn them in that quote,
unquote classical, meaning handed down
the generations, if you learn them
in that way, then you can then take
that and do whatever you want with it.
But it gives you a, you, you at
least know the steps of the salsa.
You at least know the katas of
the, of, of the karate or whatever.
Or you at least know how to make
the shapes on the fretboard of
the guitar to follow a melody.
Yeah.
And then what you do with
that melody is up to you.
So yeah, that's my question to you is,
is- It's one thing to abandon and say
it's too pedantic to follow any system at
all, but you yourself have learned several
systems, and I presume that they give you
a base from which to break the rules, no?
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, absolutely.
Well, you know, they, they, theyâ¦
as you were saying, if you want to
learn an instrument the classical
way, teach you to be able to play with
other people who play classically.
Mm.
Therefore, do you have the, you have
the, you know, you need to know how to
put your finger on the, on the piano
to, to, to, to get your technique.
That's no problem at all.
You have to learn that.
But after that- Mm ⦠your
goal, what is your goal?
Right.
Dominique Barbier: Is, is your goal,
as I say, it's not a, a, a, to teach
a monkey 100 word of English is, is a
wonderful because you are going to get a,
a, a monkey speaking English at the end.
But really does that going to
teach you how to speak monkey?
No.
We're not gonna learn about monkey if
we want to them to speak our language.
We need to speak the horse's language.
Mm-hmm.
We need to be a horse.
We need to give them a voice, and that's
what you did for your kid, for example.
Mm-hmm.
Because you, you could
not as a human react.
He was different, and you were
different, therefore you become him.
Well, we need to become horse.
We need to become a, a, a, a people
that don't aggress them first.
Mm.
And then after, after that, we can do
any, any, everything we want to do.
I always say, you know, people say,
"Oh, I don't want to make mistake."
I say, "No, you are
going to make mistake."
Mm.
Everybody makes mistake.
That's the way you, you, you learn.
That's the human experience, but
your heart is in the right place.
You want to be part of that
relationship with them, and you want
to have them really okay with you.
And if that- Yeah,
I think, I think that's,
that's often overlooked.
One is put in
Dominique Barbier: such different-
It is completely overlooked
places.
It is completely overlooked.
Mm.
Let me tell you, you, you talk about
the French Portuguese, Mm ⦠people.
With all due respect, I, I have the,
those poor Portuguese people they
learned the French, and thank God to,
to, to, to my master to be Portuguese
and, and carry on when nobody in
France was there to, to, to do it.
But-
You're talking about
Dominique Barbier: Nuno?
Yes.
Yeah.
About the, about the mystery.
Yeah.
And the, and the, and, and I think that,
that, that that what is important there
is to, is to, is to, is to re- it's
to real- realize where you want
to position yourself in all that.
Where do you want to be with yourself?
Yes.
And, and, and without using a
big word, but I'm, I'm, I'm,
I am going to use a big word.
There, there is a level of consciousness
that we need to, to, to be at.
And- I, I, I ho- I wholeheartedly agree.
And every, every one of the really
good, let's call them masters for
want of a better word, who ⦠Of
these dead dudes the, these just old
masters, whatever we want to call
them, who left these books for us, they
more or less all say the same thing.
I mean, if you, if you're
reading Xenophon, he's saying
you must make the appropriate
offerings to the appropriate gods.
You must put yourself in the
right- mind and spirit when
you're approaching a horse.
Which is interesting because in his
state of consciousness, you think,
there's a little part of me that goes,
"Yeah, Xenophon, but you own slaves.
What about that?"
Okay, but let's leave that aside.
Or when you have you know, Pluvinel
in the 17th century going to the
French king and saying, "Listen,
our aristocracy's out of control.
We've had 100 years of religious and civil
wars, and we will never match Spain until
we can get control of our ruling class."
And one of the things, as Xenophon
said about training a horse in
this three-dimensional way that we
call dressing the horse is that it
requires you to control your emotions.
So, "Sire, I propose that
we create these academies in
France sponsored by the state.
You know, that the sons of our nobility
can go to so they don't have to be like
me and go down to s- Italy to learn it,
and they will learn to control their
emotions so that they can actually
run the country and not destroy it."
And so this idea of emotional br-
bringing one's consciousness to a point,
as you just said, where it's possible
to think in three dimensions as a human
so that one can ask a horse to lend us
its three-dimensional power in order
to go and do things is, of course,
if it's, if it's approached in that
way, a very good exercise for a human.
So I think, I think people have been
aware of this, you know, probably
since the Bronze Age since people were
first started, starting to do this.
And, and I bet it always divided
it a little bit into the camps of
those who just wanted to physically
do it and those who saw a portal to
greater consciousness through it.
Today though, if you've got somebody
who wants to, as you say, enter horse.
Like f- for me, what I had to do with
Rowan, with my son to learn with him
was to follow him, simply to follow him.
And in the course of that, I- Could
identify patterns and then see what
was positive and what was worth
following and what was negative
and needed healing and assuaging.
And try, and gradually introduce
skills through the things that he
was interested in anyway, and that,
to be honest, is how anybody learns.
I mean, I speak French, and I learned
French on the back of a horse.
You speak English, you learned
English on the back of a horse.
I speak German now, I learned
that on the back of a horse.
Because just because I was interested to
be there, and certain things go on in the
brain when you move and problem-solve.
Okay, all of that is true.
Now, most people who own horses do not
have the time to follow a horse like I
followed Rowan, and most of the people
who own a horse have a job, and they have
a family, and they probably have to keep
their horse in an imperfect situation at a
riding club or a public stable where they
are not in control of the environment,
how much the, of a herd that horse gets to
live in, how much outside time that horse
gets, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
How do people in this position,
which is the realityâ¦
We don't want to shame them.
We don't want to say, "Oh,
you shouldn't be," you know.
And, and they don't h- they're not lucky.
They're not like me.
They don't have Andalusia as their
backyard or, or you know, the
state of Wyoming as their backyard.
How can they achieve what
you're talking about?
Dominique Barbier: Well, you know,
life will tell them what it is
Mm.
Dominique Barbier: Life in
their own way will will teach
them what they have to learn.
You, you learn all that stuff because
you know, life, God give you, give
you a kid that was different, and
and they give me a horse who was
different, and then I was interested
into, into m- my- the, the horse that
I learned the most was Don Giovanni.
Mm.
Don Giovanni.
And Don Giovanni was a,
was a horse that taught me
95% of everything I know, because
he did not do it the way I knew.
Okay.
I had to, I had to, I had
to find another way for him.
I had to completely turn myself
upside down and, and just just
learn that I did not know anything,
and I would learn from him.
And-
Can you tell us, give us
a biography of this horse.
How did he enter yourâ¦
How old were you?
How did he enter your life?
Well- And tell us a little bit that story
⦠Dominique Barbier: yes, Don
Giovanni was a extraordinary horse.
I, I had I, I was in Portugal, and I
bought my first horse with the Mestre
in Santarém, there in the, in the fair.
It was a, was a half-brother
of a horse that he had, and,
and Pascoal was my first horse.
And I I wanted an, I wanted another
horse, and at that time Senior Engineer
Fernando Dan- Dan- Andrade was a,
was a good friend of the m- of the
Mestre and and certainly one of the
most important breeder in Portugal.
And-
You were saying Mestre, notâ¦
Just for the listeners, just an, an accent
thing, Dominic's not saying mystery here.
He's saying Mestre.
He means master.
Mestre.
A master, correct.
And he means Master Nuno Oliveira-
Yes ⦠and we're going to find out how
he first- Yeah ⦠found his way to Nuno.
Okay, so a friend of N- of Nuno's- Yes
This Andrade dude who a lot
of people don't know, but the
Andrade family in Portugal is
synonymous with the Lusitano horse.
Let's just leave it there for a moment.
Okay, so you are lucky
enough to know Nuno.
You're lucky enough to know this sort
of- deity of the Portuguese horse
Senhor Andrade, and y- is, is it
through him that you get Don Giovanni?
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, he
amazingly enough, he, he,
he was over there and heâ¦
You know, I have a, in my life, a,
a series of, of, of, of event where
very incredible, for example, Mr.
Andrade invited me to go to, to his
to his quinta on the, on the Golganda,
and I spent a week there with him, with
their family, which was unheard of.
I never- Mm ⦠seen anybody doing that.
But long story short, I was looking
for another, another horse, and this,
those horses were very expensive.
Like you say, he wa- he was one of the top
three or four top breeders that represent
the breed of the Lusitanos there.
Over
centuries, yeah.
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
Over century, with the Vega- Exactly
with the Vegas and the-
Mm-hmm ⦠Bragas and all those.
Mm-hmm.
And and I, I went there and I saw
those horses, and I was passing by
and I was you have to understand, I
was there during the revolution, yes?
Mm.
Sev- sev- '75 in Portugal, and a lot of,
a lot of social movement was happening
there And I saw that horse actually
chained down to, to to a, to a stall.
Like, you know, the, all the people don't
know that, but the Portuguese horses at
that time, and the, the horses in the
world at that time, were in tie stalls.
They were not in in the box
stall, like they call them.
Mm-hmm.
Only Thoroughbred were in box stall
because they couldn't be tied.
Mm-hmm.
Therefore, every working horse or
every horse was in a tie stall.
They eat in the front and
they poop at the back.
They were led to water three time a day.
Mm-hmm.
That was their life, and then they work.
Therefore, I saw that poor horse there,
and I, and I was really amazed by,
by, by him, and I wanted to see him,
and he says, "No," I could not see him
because he injured one of his worker,
and he was going to be destroyed.
And he, he, he, he was a striker.
He used to strike with his front leg.
Mm-hmm.
Dominique Barbier: Anyway, therefore,
I insisted and I insisted, and he, he
turned him loose for me, and the horse
was completely v- very, very tight.
He, he, he had a beautiful walk and,
and canter, but the, the trot was
just, like, nonexistent, and he was
so, so tense and tight mentally that
he was not moving his body at all.
But somehow I had these things about him.
Therefore, I went back home and, and I
talked to the mister, and the mister say,
"Oh, only me can train those horses when
they are crazy, and I just cannot tell,
tell you what what is what is happening."
And are you still there?
Yes.
And an- anyway, long story
short, my, my, my-- he said,
"No, you, you can't have him."
And, and then my mother came for
dinner, and he said, the mister, he
said, "Oh your mother is so beautiful.
You can have your horse."
Anyway, lots of, lots of end of a
dinner conversation I could have
my horse, and then I- I, I had
him for to come into my place.
The, the the thing was that if I could
ride him after a month, I could keep him.
If not, then he would be destroyed.
Therefore I arranged
him to come to the farm.
It took five people for me to sit on
him the first day, and then I, for
at least 10 days, I faced the wall
because I could not have him straight.
He was not possible.
And anyway, nothing works, therefore I, I
had to change so many things that I did.
I, I was I, I, I was in passage before
I was in trot- Mm-hmm ⦠because
the, the poor horse could not relax.
Mm.
The poor horse, things, I mean,
hundreds of stories just like that.
The long story that, that I'm telling you
is that this horse was so different from
everybody else, that if I wanted to be
learning something, I want it to be him.
I had
to be- But how did you
find your way into him?
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Dominique Barbier: Circumstances.
I think he was in tie stall that
I told you, and then he, he kick
another horse, and I had to, I
think, seven injection at that time.
You know, the antibiotics were not
com- go- compound then, therefore
you had to have seven of them a day.
And, and I was injecting
him seven time a day.
And, and and, and then after that, I had
to, I had to step-by-step listen to him.
I had to step-
Talk us through that process.
Dominique Barbier: Well, I, I, I was
in a situation where everything that I
was learning or, or, or that I, I had
learned basically did not work with
him I mean, I hate to say that, but a
little bit like when you, when you were
a young man and then you had that kids.
Yeah, sure.
And then, you know, y- those,
those rule don't apply to-
Right.
So Iâ¦
But I could talk you
through how I found my way.
Talk us through how you found your way.
Like, take us chronologically.
How did you find your
way into Don Giovanni?
Dominique Barbier: Well, I think the, the,
the big thinking there that I realized
that was, was I needed to be mental
because the physicality did not work.
He was so tight and so tense that whatever
I was doing physically, it did not work.
Okay.
Therefore, I needed to find another way,
and the other way was to try to, to, to,
to communicate with that brain that he-
Mm-hmm ⦠that, that, that, that, that,
that was there and very, very powerful.
Very, very strong.
And also I can't say dangerous,
but, but dangerous because he
did not accept an- anything.
Therefore, what I did
is I did my three steps.
I, Iâ¦
After I sat on him, after I
was straight, after I could
walk I was doing three steps.
One, two, three, let the rein go long.
His nose was on the ground.
Then I used to pick up my rein and go
one, two, three steps until, and repeat
this, and repeat this, and repeat
this until we become, we became one.
Until I can prove to him that I
could do whatever he wanted the way
he wanted to, and I was listening.
And then he said that was okay.
What did you find that he really liked?
How did you t- how did you f- how
did you find his preferences and
his enjoyment and his pleasure, and
then how did you tweak your way of
riding and training to follow that?
Dominique Barbier: What I told you be-
before, you have to learn that you have to
spend 90% of your time not bothering them.
Mm-hmm.
Dominique Barbier: Give them clear
thinking, like three steps, stop,
long neck, short neck, shorter
rein and walk, and very simple
task, and get out of the way.
Do not do anything.
Mm-hmm.
Do not use your leg, do not use
your hand, do not do anything.
Just sit there and wait.
Because he could not, he
could not take the contact.
He, he c- he could, he never
touched the, the rein, and certainly
could not touch him with my leg.
And, and the seat, I was sitting
on him because I was sitting on, on
him, but that was not his choice.
Therefore, if I decide to do that,
which was my problem, if I can say
that, then I had to learn the, to
learn the, the, the story after
that and what should I do or not do.
I learned a lot of thing that
I should not do with him.
What should you not do?
Dominique Barbier: Use my leg,
use my- Mm-hmm ⦠use, use, u- p-
ph- the physicality did not work.
Absolutely.
And then did you find that there were
certain things he really enjoyed doing?
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, I think he he
ultimately, You know, I always said,
said that to people, that we want to
dance with the horses, but I never saw
horses bring me the saddle and say,
"Dad, I want to dance with you," okay?
Therefore, it's a really one-sided,
the dance kind of thinking, yeah?
A little bit like human dance.
You invite somebody to dance,
and if they like to dance with
you, they are going to say yes.
If they don't like to dance,
they will tell you no.
Mm-hmm.
Dominique Barbier: But how many
people do this with the horses?
Well, right, but that's why I'm
asking for specifics, 'cause
people often ask me this.
I'll give you an example,
perhaps, to make it clearer.
Yes.
So, like you said, in England, you, you
had some experience with some hunting.
I grew up doing a lot of that.
And I observed that most
horses enjoyed it, because why?
They were out with their friends.
Yes.
Yeah.
They wereâ¦
They, so they're in a herd, they're
crossing country, they're using their
brains, they're having adventures.
They'reâ¦
It's, it's really designed.
It d- it really doesn't matter whether
the person on top rides badly or
well, the horse is kind of okay.
And- Yeah.
They
Dominique Barbier: have
to, they have to ⦠so.
Right.
So when I, when I began my dressage
adventure, I realized I want
that f- I want to have a horse
that has that feeling of joy.
Because also, the reason I'm even doing
this dressage is so that I can work with
an autistic child in collection, and I
need to transmit wellbeing to this child.
And if the horse has no wellbeing,
well, there is no wellbeing to transmit.
So I do know one good picture-
Very good ⦠of wellbeing.
Right.
So I, I had that as a, as a, as a,
if you like, an example to follow.
Yeah,
Dominique Barbier: sure.
So now when I'm training horses
you know, obviously I, I do a lot
of, I do almost all of it on the
ground before I go into the saddle.
But I really look to see what
they show me that they like.
And because I have this background
in hunting, I usually take them
out into nature, and I see,
what do they kind of like to do?
Like, some of them really love
jumping, and some of them really
love solving little puddles solve,
solving little puzzles, rather, of,
Terrain, and others really need a
sense of security from another horse,
and others like to be out in front.
And so I can, I can sort of see the
horse's preferences to some degree by
taking them out like that, and then I
can say, "Okay, this French-Portuguese
system that I'm working to, I can tweak
it to their preferences because they've
shown me what the preference is."
And then the other thing which I've
often found is that horses are made to
go to work before they've played, which
is often where a lot of things go wrong.
And it was Master Valenza
who really showed me that.
He said, "Let the horse play first in
an anarchy phase, and then when his
brain is sort of ready, then present him
with something that you want to learn."
I was like, "My God, that
makes so much sense."
So now I take it to the extreme where
frequently I have this whole thing called
crazy time, particularly because for
about five years I had in Germany to
keep my horse, horses, in a riding stable
where in the winter they barely got out.
And so I s- learned how to use the indoor
arena as a whole playground, and with free
jumping and all sorts of fun activities,
and I would end up putting them in there.
I wouldn't even need to
tell these horses to jump.
They'd just go and have all kinds of fun.
And then when I then wanted to say,
"Okay, now let's look at some dressage
stuff," they'd be like, "Yeah, sure.
Absolutely, yeah.
Here I am.
I'm full of endorphins, and my mind
is ready and open, and I feel good,
so yeah, show me what you got."
Or now if I go into the arena and
I just feel that my horse is just
not there, I'm like, "No problem.
I will just turn right around and go into
the forest and maybe try a little bit
of what I wanted in the forest, and then
tomorrow maybe we come back to the arena."
So this thing about letting horses
show you their preferences can be
quite spec- quite concrete and easy to
follow, and I think people need more
than the esoteric for these things.
Because the esoteric comes in anyway.
The spiritual comes in anyway because
you're dealing with a hu- a monkey and
a pony, you know, both products of the
greater consciousness, if you will.
So any time that you're interacting,
that spirituality is going
to obviously- Come into play.
But I think people are often really lost,
and it is helpful for them, particularly
when they're looking to a sort of
elder statesman like you, Dominique.
If you say, "Yeah, listen, I have
this really difficult horse."
And you, that was very
good what you gave us.
One, two, three, let the rein go.
One, two, three, let the rein go.
But there must have been a host of
other things with this particularly
difficult and dangerous horse that
might have been destroyed if he
hadn't been lucky enough to meet you.
So what, h- what, how did you
create the framework of, of
observation of what he liked, and
what did he show you that he liked?
Dominique Barbier: It's
a very good question.
To tell you the truth, I, I in the
lunging of the horse, the first in the
Portuguese system, as you call it, or
the French system, the first part of
the lunging is a, is a free lunging-
Mm-hmm ⦠is just a enjoyment, yes?
Yeah.
Enjoyment.
If the, if it's cold or-
Anarchy phase
you get very messy ⦠like
the events occurs it, yeah.
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
That's a, that's a fun stuff.
Yeah.
And then they, they say, "And then
after that one is done, then, then,
then we go to a little routine of
what we decide to do on that day."
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
And then you, you have
some sort of a plan.
I say you always have a plan, and
then after that you have a plan
because you have to change it- Yeah
because something else happened.
Therefore you know, I, I, I, I, I, as you,
as you know, I am a teacher and, and I,
and I have my people smiling a, a lot.
Mm.
I think that if, if you smile, you, you
have more people smiling around you.
That's just- Mm ⦠basic things of life.
If you have very serious
phase because you're-
concentrating on things, it's
just not a very positive thing,
especially for the, for the animals.
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: I think that the,
the, the, the enjoyment of them is
by feeling that there is something
happening between you and them
Go on
⦠Dominique Barbier: I, I think
that's exactly what it is.
I I, s- you know, if you, if you,
if you let a horse alone on the
field with another horse, yeah,
the first thing he does, they eat.
They, they like to eat because that's sur-
survival and it's very important for them.
And then they, if they have a mate,
well, they sometimes they play a
little bit, or they don't play.
They, they like to know what their number
is, if number one, number two, and I
can move towards you and you run away
from me, and that type of of thinking.
And and after that, it's it's all the some
sort of imagination of of what you were
telling us about you, what, what make them
please and what make them don't please.
Mm.
Really if you, as, as you were saying,
the extreme people they, they, they
like them in the field and, and taking
pictures, which I think is fabulous.
Mm.
I think if you don't want to do
anything with your horse, I think
taking pictures in a beautiful field,
and feeding them, and calling the vet
and all that is, is a fantastic thing.
Yeah,
there's nothing wrong with that.
Yeah,
Dominique Barbier: sure.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Now, if you want to have some sort of
play with them, then play with them.
Mm, mm.
Dominique Barbier: It could be
jumping, it could be chasing them,
it could be you know, the, the,
the, the, the working in freedom.
You can have so many different ways
to, to look at at your life because
it is your life in relation with them.
Mm, mm.
I think, I think what stands out from
what you just said is play w- and
back to Don Giovanni then, how did
you find what how he liked to play?
How did Don Giovanni like to play?
Dominique Barbier: He loved to passage.
Okay.
Dominique Barbier: He said, "You see,
I don't like anything, I really don't.
But if you don't move, I am going to give
you a passage who's gonna knock you down."
And even after that when he was a,
w- when I was giving lesson with him,
he used to torture people by having,
saying, "Hey, you know something?
I have this gift for you, and if
you sit there, don't touch me.
If you just sit there, I will
give you the best passage feeling
you can have in your life."
Yes.
And then after that, he learned
how to do his little levade.
The levade was a good trick for him.
Mm-hmm.
Because he, he, he was
like a kid, you know.
He had tricks, therefore I can do
that for you even if you don't ask.
Right.
And that, and that's why he was, he was
kind of a little tricky, at the beginning.
But, but they, they, they offer you
stuff, and, and- Yes ⦠I think that's
the way a good dancer tell his mate
that they, they could do that trick
together and they have a good time.
Yes.
Yes.
I think, I think that that'sâ¦
So this is, there's some real clues here.
So listeners, I'm just addressing
the listeners and, and watchers now.
If you, if you have been listening
to this since the beginning,
you will remember that Dominique
said this horse was a striker.
He liked to use his front hooves,
and initially he was using them
in a way that was not conducive
to human and monkey happiness.
Some people got hurt, and, but
this is in stallions, particularly
some stallions, particularly
stallions from that Andrade line.
Why do I know this?
'Cause I got one.
And yes, they like to use their front
legs, and then one can say, "Okay, I can
either go with this or not go with this.
And if I go with this, perhaps I could
end up with him showing me how he would
like to use this expression that could
end up in very beautiful Spanish walk,
or very beautiful passage," in a w-
ver- even the, even the levade is, is
related to that in a way that pleases
him and allows him to feel fulfilled.
Or I could say, "No, no, that's
not safe," and try to shut the
behavior down and go against it.
Now if you are not lucky enough
to have the type of- instruction
that Dominique had from M- Márcio
Nuno Oliveira, and we need to find
out how you found your way to him.
I've been lucky too.
I've, I've had much instruction from Mr.
Valença and the Valença family, who
are related to N- Nuno and that line.
Had I not lucked into that, I might not
have known how, with my own horse, Zag,
to go through a rather similar process
that you've, you've talked about of
this horse would do all kinds of things.
But he was also brilliant, and
I could tell he was generous.
But it was a lot about getting out
of the way and what, he, he, he told
me, showed me exactly what you've
described, Dominique, which is that I
had to neutralize my legs and my seat.
And it took me about, I don't know,
two and a half years to really do that.
Because as a jumping rider, of course,
you, you close the leg and put power in
your leg, 'cause you have to, otherwise
when you land, you will fall off.
And I'm still a jumping rider, so
now I've just learnt to be versatile.
When I'm jumping, I can, I
can use this bit of muscle.
When I'm not jumping, I, this dressage
thing, I'm not going to use it.
But of course, it took
me a while to get there.
As soon as I stopped using my
legs and my seat, oh, my gosh,
did this horse show me things.
And it's very, very similar
to what you've said.
He, he has this, he's also an Andrade.
He has this absolutely extraordinary
passage that he'll give you.
He'll also go into a kind of perma
piaffe, if you'll let him and have
a lot of fun with that, sometimes
with a bit of a sense of humor.
And there's a joy to it, where
I don't feel I'm making him
piaffe or I'm making him passage.
Quite the opposite.
I feel I'm getting out of his way so
that he, like James Brown, can get
up there- Yes ⦠and do his thing.
Now, but it took a horse almost that
extreme to really make me neutralize.
And then I realized, of course,
every other horse I got on that was
not an Andra- you know, a brilliant
Andrade, complex Andrade Lusitano.
Every time I get on a Quarter Horse now,
every time I get on a Thoroughbred, every
time I get on a Warmblood, every time
I get on a cob, I now ride with this
neutrality, and oh, my gosh, do they
show me stuff But nobody told me this.
And it's so interesting that
even in, like, the works of Nuno
Oliveira, which we can read and
reread and reread, he hints at this.
He goes round the mountain about it,
but he doesn't just tell you to do it.
It would beâ¦
And I do feel that it's, you
know, life is short and we
shouldn't be torturing people.
W- you know, so, so for example, when,
when you stumble into something like
what you stumbled in with John- Don
Giovanni, I don't think that that
is specific only to Don Giovanni.
I think Don Giovanni is just an extreme
enough horse that he will ac- accept
nothing else But th- then I'm pretty sure,
I bet you that when Dominique Barbier
gets on another horse, he rides that other
horse pretty much as if he was sitting
on Don Giovanni, and allows that other
horse to show him what he wants to do.
Would I, would I be
right in assuming that?
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: Absolutely.
And, and, and you, and your comment about
the, the, the mystery, you, you have to
understand that at the time of where they
lived they were not telling you stuff.
Yeah.
You know?
Dominique Barbier: There was aâ¦
There's a little bit of a, of
a, of a funny business telling
stories about the mystery, now
everybody's a student now- Yeah
suddenly.
And, and what is, what is fascinating
is that the, the, the man really
did not give you anything.
He was hinting you, as you said.
He was not telling you.
He was putting you into a situation
where where things can happen.
Mm-hmm.
And that was his great,
hi- hi- his great mastery.
That was, that was what he was doing.
If you, if you, if you read the, the
first chapter of nearly all of my
books, I tell the story that changed
my life about that great big horse that
was able to, to collect himself on, on
the loose rein- Mm ⦠just with the
upper part of the body back, and that-
Mm ⦠changed, that changed my life.
Mm.
That changed my whole aspect of
thinking, how could you collect a
horse just having your upper part of
your body going back, up, and back?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And that was something that 10 days, It
was in the old picadero in Lisbon that
it allow me to, to feel that, and that
was that was l- life-changing even now,
that descent de main, descent de jambe
follows me for everything right now.
Mm.
And not as a, a lot of people
think of something that, that can
happen when you get very old and
when you have done a lot of things.
It can happen at the walk
when you are very young.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dominique Barbier: And then the-
Absolutely.
Dominique Barbier: No, And if you are,
and if you are told that, if you are
told that, that, that just exists.
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: But that'sâ¦
But at that time, n- you know, at
that time, the, the great cooks
were were having those r- cooking
recipes that they keep secret.
Mm-hmm.
And then they, they realized they
could make millions by writing
cooking books and, and, and writing
all those secret recipes and, and
realizing that people still can't cook.
It's just, it is
just not a matter of the recipes.
Yes, but I'm a, I'm a, I'm a
great believer in the, in the, the
transmission and dissemination of clear
information, and I'll tell you why.
Yeah.
Because I feel that that- aids happiness.
I've seenâ¦
So for example, let's just move
away from horses for a second.
You know, in my work with human rights
or in my work with autism, there are
things that are really, really useful
for people to know about some sort of
basic neuroscience the neuroscience
of happiness, the neuroscience of
unhappiness and how one can move- Yeah
between them.
Or, you know, wi- within human rights,
certain aspects of how to prove ancestral
ownership of land so that if you go into
a courtroom it will stand up, you know?
And those people can- Yeah.
Yeah ⦠will mo- not be on the
street anymore and go back to
their forest or, or whatever it is.
And I feel that within- the,
the dressing of the horse, this
dressage business, which can be
so joyful and can be so unjoyful.
There are some really clear things
which if one follows them, will lead
to joy, and I'm not entirely convinced
that those people of the great
Nuno's generation were necessarily
concerned that much with human joy.
And the reason- That's- ⦠is because
I've met quite a lot of people-
Dominique Barbier: They
were, they were not- I've, I've
met qui- I've met quite a lot
of the products - They were not-
of those people ⦠they were not,
Dominique Barbier: they were not
necessarily into horses either.
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
They, human happiness and horse happiness
m- wasn't necessarily their primary
motivation, even if they said it was.
There were other more complex
demons there, and- Yes ⦠that
were probably not even their fault,
you know, just, just, just the-
Dominique Barbier: That's, that's
a very nice way to put it, Robert.
Yes.
Dominique Barbier: Very nice.
And, you know, we, we all sort of grew
up with this, but I, again, I believe
that it doesn't need to be that way.
So for example, when I'm talking, I,
I really have seen that there is an
equation, that if you use crazy time and
that sort of playtime, focus playtime,
and nature to see what the horse really
kind of enjoys, and then you use this
sort of French-Portuguese system saying,
"Okay, I can use lunging to build a horse
physically, and then I can, you know,
teach him balance, and then I can also
use in-hand work to show him and myself
what are these things that we need to
do to collect before I ride, and I can
use long reins a little bit the same."
And then if I then am- put a rider
on the horse while I'm on the ground
with the horse doing the thing he
already knows on the ground, and I
add a rider's aid to my ground aid,
then the horse goes, "Oh, right, yeah.
Sure, that means the same thing.
I accept."
And there's a smooth learning
curve, and kind of people progress
happily, and so do the horses.
And I do th- see that absolutely
played out time and time again.
Now, to be fair, n- Luis Valença
showed me that, and, he showed
me how to re- reproduce it.
Where my talent is is that I can
put things, I can take things from
esoteric terms and put them in layman's
terms because I'm a journalist by
training, but I'm also a great believer
that clarity creates happiness.
Because all of the esoteric stuff
and all of the complexities and
nuances, they'll come anyway.
We can, we can absolutely rely on
life and horses and pa- you know, to
present us with innumerable challenges.
But if we have a basic roadmap to
drive from Paris to Leon or London
to York it is really helpful.
And you know, but we, we assume
we'll have some adventures along
the way, and it's, and it's good to
know how to fill up the, the tank.
I just feel that, you know, when one's
piecing together the writings, for
example, of Nu- Nuno Oliveira, when
you've been lucky enough, like you have,
to have had the education you have, or
lucky enough, like I have, to have sought
out education through someone like Mr.
Valenza, I can then interpret
what's being written.
But if you didn't have that, it would
be more or less impossible, and I
find that quite sad because there's
so much wisdom in there, and people
deserve it and horses deserve it.
If, if we're truly here to try
to make a difference in this
happiness-suffering equation surely
clarity is helpful in that, is it not?
Dominique Barbier: Yep.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: Clarity and,
and and, and clarity of the goals.
Mm.
Again, you know, what
w- what do people want?
Mm.
Dominique Barbier: What do pe- we are,
we are, we are back to square number one.
Mm.
What do you want out of that relationship?
What, what is the most important
part of that relationship, and
what are you gonna do about it?
What do you, when you're teaching,
you teach all over the world what's
the number one goal that people
tend to tell you that they want?
Dominique Barbier: Well, more and more,
and I think it's it's a progress that
way, more and more, they, they verbally
want to be closer to their horses.
Mm.
I think from my generation on,
where it was pretty much when I was
young we have a, a generation of
old gentlemen, old French gentlemen
who used to ride their horses
before going to work in the morning.
Mm.
They used to go to the stable,
ride the horses, and go to work.
And a- and, and they were
very, very nice people.
They were very they
read every single book.
They, they study, and they,
they really love their horses.
But it was really difficult
in public to touch your horse
and sort of af- affectionate.
Interesting.
Dominique Barbier: Because it was
a military kind of background.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And it was very manly to do things-
Mm-hmm ⦠and this and that.
Mm-hmm.
And you really had to hide to, to
be friendly and sweet to your horse.
Interesting.
Dominique Barbier: And, and now, I
will tell you it for a simple example,
simple fact, is that most of the, the,
the, the women are riding right now.
Less and less men are riding, and
more and more women are riding.
And, and women have a sort of a of, of
understanding of being together that
men don't- Mm ⦠for a lot of reasons.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And, and, and because of that,
and because of the, the ladies
not following the men, the men's
standard, they, they can be really
nice to their horses, and that's okay.
They can really enjoy it, and that's
okay, and they really look for that.
Now, the way they do it sometime
is kind of, a little disappointed.
They are so serious that they lose
the joy of, of loving their horses.
But, but, but, but being taught that it's
possible to smile and ride at the same
time, and enjoy and feel the joy, and
feel the, the, the, the beauty of it.
The beauty come from the joy.
Mm.
I really believe that.
Yeah.
And I, and I think that's my
teaching now more and more.
I, I, I want the people to smile
when they ride, because if they
don't smile, why are you riding?
Very true.
I mean, the only reason any of
us interact with horses at all-
Dominique Barbier: Yeah
⦠unless we are cowboys or, you know,
there are still some small niches
where it is a very practical thing-
Dominique Barbier: Sure
perhaps in the therapy world.
But the only reason any of us interact
with horses or ever did was because
it, the horses made us feel good.
They make us feel better.
And then, yeah, we end up for a while
in this cage where the very thing
that was making us feel better is
now making us feel terrible because-
Dominique Barbier: Yeah
and then hopefully we
break out of that cage.
Dominique Barbier: But, but
men do that with everything.
Yeah, exactly.
Dominique Barbier: We enjoy it.
Yeah.
We enjoy it, then we don't enjoy it.
Then they're working on
it, and then we destroy.
And then we get older and we realize
that has nothing to do with that.
But that's, that's against,
Rupert, that's, that's a,
that, that's human experience,
you know?
It's so true.
It's so true.
The human- And you were talking about
the male to female thing there, and I
was thinking, "Yeah, but I know so many
women that make their horses feel sad."
And, you know, so you were describing
a male dysfunction from a previous
generation, and now of course with women
overtaking the horse world, you see-
Both function and dysfunction,
but now through a feminine lens.
So it, w- it's, it's still just people,
but I do think you're right, though,
that, that it's now, what women have
done is they've made it feel s- us
feel safe to be affectionate towards
our horses, which it's a, a very
good point that you make there, which
perhaps that wasn't so present before.
Although interestingly, growing up with
hunting and that kind of cross-country
riding in the Midlands of England like
I did, even though the culture was quite
harsh in some ways, and I would say it
was equally men and women out in the
hunt field, it was probably 50/50 Yes.
Dominique Barbier: Yes, it was
⦠but because I think there's something
about trusting your life to the horse
when t- which you do out hunting, because
even more than eventing, you know, y-
as you know, you've done it, you, on a
really good hunting day, you don't know
what's on the other side of the fence
when you go in, and sometimes that's a
not very good surprise, and you trust
the horse to get you out of trouble.
Yes.
And so you have this kind of love
and this gratitude to the horse.
So I grew up even with those
old guys, watching them be very
affectionate to their horses.
I think-
Dominique Barbier: Yes
⦠there's a different,
different ethic there.
But nonetheless, I, I, I do agree that,
that people weren't asking the question
so much now, which they're asking is,
you know, y- should I even be here?
And how do I, how do Iâ¦
You know, thinking back to all the
days when, let's say, I was trying
to get a horse over a jump, and it
was a sticky horse, and someone said,
"Just make him do it," you know, and
you're sort of 14 years old, you're
thinking, "Oh, gosh, I suppose I have
to do this," but you have no idea how.
So they, they tell you to kick, they
tell you to hit the horse, so you do.
And then you, you th- you remember
this now at our age with sort of
shame and flinching, but at the
time you were trying to do what
you were told to do by an adult.
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, yeah.
And-
Dominique Barbier: Learning.
Learning,
Dominique Barbier: learning.
Life
⦠that, that has, that has gone
much w- more, you just don't
really see that so much anymore.
Or, or let's say when you do see it,
you, you really kind of notice it now
whereas it used to just be the norm.
Let, and speaking of that
generation, just take us back again.
Did you come from a horsey family?
No.
What did your family do?
Dominique Barbier: No.
My I, I was not my family was not horsey.
I was a, a little town boys and Nothing
nothing to let me to this to this life.
But my brother was became a, a sailor
and organizing regatta around the world,
and he was not a, a sailor either.
My- no- no- nobody at the boat- What town,
what town did you grow up in
and, and what did your folks do?
Dominique Barbier: Well, at the, at
the beginning we, my first 10 years
of my life was in Cognac, a little
town of Charente, the Cognac- I know
that t- I know that town.
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: And, and my dad was
was dealing with, with alcohol and-
Mm-hmm
⦠Dominique Barbier: and and we had
a, we had a big delicatessen type
of place with all the big family
of of the Cognac there, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
The, the British family and I was there
on the, on the, on the Judy with the, with
the, with the, with the nurse- nurses of
the kids and all that stuff, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
British family, little Hennessy and
Camus and, and Otta and all those people.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And and then after that I, I was in, um
Uh, I moved two years in Orleans, and
then I went to Poitiers af- after that.
Okay.
Dominique Barbier: And,
Those are all relatively horsey
areas of France, though, Gascony,
Poitiers, the Loire Valley.
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
So there must have been horses around you.
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
They, they, th- there was a
lot of pony clubs type of deal.
Mm-hmm.
And in Poitiers I had the the
opportunity to have the, the man
that imported a lot of Irish horses
you know, in the, in the '60s.
Mm.
Early '60s a lot of Irish horses
came there, and a lot of jumpers.
Mm-hmm.
And then, and then I went to
Limoges to, to study with a, with
a gentleman from the Cadenoix.
And and it was on and on, just just the
French you know, the French regular stuff-
Mm-hmm
⦠Dominique Barbier: to learn to learn
the basic from the military people.
Right.
And then how did you find
your way down to Portugal?
Well, it's- Because this is
always a big mind-blower.
When I found my way down to Portugal,
it was also, the sort of universe
broke open for me ec- in equestrian
way, i- in a very good way.
How did you find your way down there?
What was the story?
Dominique Barbier: Well, the story there
is, is that, that I was in, in England
a- and I, and I told myself after all
the exam that that I passed in in, in
England I, I wanted to go to Portugal
to him, because he had the reputation
of, of who he was, the, the top of
the world, especially in, in France.
We were very, I don't know if
you know, but in France we have
a lot of Lusitano breeders.
Yes.
Dominique Barbier: And a lot
of a lot of people who are
involved in that, in that kind of
competition.
And were, were, but were people
breeding Lusitanos even back then?
'Cause I thought it was a bit, a
little bit more recent than that.
Dominique Barbier: No.
I mean, I, I mean, they, they,
they started it in the '70s, '80s.
Okay.
Yeah.
And it was a, it was a pretty
A- anyway, I wanted to go there.
Mm.
And then then I just sort of
wrote and just I, I was there
for for a short period of a time.
And then I went to, to the to Colorado.
With a, with a group of of
people at that time that started
my, my work in, in America.
And then I went back to, to, to
the mystery for, for two years-
Okay
⦠Dominique Barbier: in the '70s.
You know, '74, '75.
And-
Was it easy, was it easy
to have him accept you?
Was it difficult to go and study with him?
Or- Well- ⦠was it
relatively straightforward?
Did you sort of show up and say,
"Hey, I'm interested," and he-
Dominique Barbier: Well, I think
he, he took, at that time, kind
of a anybody or ev- everybody.
There was no money involved.
You know, that the, the, the,
the, the mystery was kind of, of
sponsors by- Mm ⦠by a people.
And, and he did not he
did not drive a car.
He, he, he, he, he did not do a lot
of thing, and his family just lived.
And he had, he trained that one horse-
Mm-hmm ⦠a year, that was bought every
year by a, a Belgium gen- gentleman.
Mm-hmm.
And the price of the horse was
basically the amount of the
bill of, of the year before.
Okay.
Dominique Barbier: Before he was
a, a kind of sponsor, if I can say.
Right.
So, so he was running, Nuno was running
his stable as a sort of a laboratory,
which was, Sponsored by certain
wealthy folk whose, from Northern
Europe, whose horses he was training.
And so if you showed up as, if you like,
a magician's apprentice in the alchemist's
laboratory, he would take you for free?
Was that the case, or did you- That's,
Dominique Barbier: I, I mean, I
mean, not for free, but it was
like it was like five francs.
Yeah.
For that
time, not even a, a, a
dollar per, per, per lesson.
There, there was no money involved.
But there must have been people,
a queue of people outside the
door wanting to do this, so-
Dominique Barbier: Yeah
⦠how did you, but how did
you j- jump the queue?
How did you find your way in there?
Dominique Barbier: Well, gen-
gen- generally because the, the,
the queue was generally in the
summer, you know, when the- Okay
when we've got a beautiful day.
In the winter, you know, that there was
not so much act- ⦠activities, you know?
Yes.
Dominique Barbier: And, and also
I I, I had seven horses with me
at, at that time that I that I
acquired when I was in Portugal and
training at at the master's place.
Rupert Isaacson: So you
could bring those horses.
He had enough space that you
could show up with seven horses?
As you may know, if you've been following
my work, we are also horsey folk here.
And we have been training horses for
many, many years in the manner of
the old classical dressage masters.
This is something which is
often very confusing for people.
We shine a light on that murky, difficult
stuff and make it crystal clear.
If you'd like to learn to train your
horse in the manner of the old masters and
really have fun and joy for you and your
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Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I did not arrive
at, at once with seven.
I progressively have another seven.
You know, it's interesting if you,
if you think about that now in modern
terms, if someone was to go to, I
don't know, one can think of some
big names, it would be impossible to
show up now, I think, on those terms
with, and with seven horses and so on.
It, it, it was a different i-
a different economy, I suppose.
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, but, but
I mean, you know, even now, I mean,
you can, you can, I mean, you know,
you, you, you went to, to Luis with,
with no problem, and Luis- Well, I
p- I paid.
But, but then, you know, you
either ha- it depends what time
of your life you are, right?
You either pay with your time
or you pay with your money.
Yeah.
But, but that, that relationship with
the Valences, yes, has evolved into a,
even though I would say they are still
my mentors, it's, it's evolved into
more of a collea- collegial thing where
I obviously send all my students to
them because that's just common sense.
But yes, I see what you mean.
It, there, there's a point usually
where you're paying, and then there's
a point where you're working together.
Right.
That is true.
Yeah.
That is true.
Okay, so here's a slightly tricky one
Many of the people who I have met who
were longtime products of L- o- o- of Mr.
Oliveira, with the exception, I would
say, of Luis Valencia, even people
who are products of the products of
Nuno, often have carry
a certain bitterness
I don't mean bitterness towards the man.
I mean an internal bitterness.
Why do you think that is?
It puzzled me
⦠Dominique Barbier: can you, can you
just tell me a little bit more what
you call this the, the, the, the, the-
A, a, a sort of a misogyny, a sort
of a dislike of their fellow human.
And I d- the, and Luis Valenza's
an absolute exception to this.
Dominique Barbier: Yeah
he's, he's one of the
warmest humans I know.
But, but so many others who I've met
who w- there seems to be a, yeah-
Dominique Barbier: Well, can I, can, can,
can- ⦠I can't quite put my finger on
Dominique Barbier: Well, the mys- well,
it's, I mean, for me it's very clear.
The, the Mystery was a
very complicated man.
Mm.
Dominique Barbier: And a lot of people
went there for other purposes than,
than, than, than learning, writing.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And they get, You know, the, the,
the, I, I, I, I love my master.
I think I, I learn a, a, a lot from him,
and I consider him highly for him as a,
as a, as a trainer and a writer and a man.
But he- his, his life
was very complicated.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
His life was not very happy.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
He had a, you know, he, there was a lot
of a challenge that he had to- Mm-hmm
he had to deal with.
And of course, when you have that
energy-wise- Mm-hmm ⦠well, the energy
that you spread around is the same.
Again, it's a very personal thing.
Mm-hmm.
You, you talk about Luis.
Luis is always a, a very,
a very happy person.
Mm-hmm.
He, he, he, he, he, you come
and he has a smile on his face.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
It's
Dominique Barbier: very rare.
Yeah.
He, he welcomes you, and
Dominique Barbier: yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and, and every day, and every day
twice a day- Yeah ⦠or three time a day.
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: You canâ¦
This i- again, it's a personal attitude.
Now, all the other people
they, they, they struggle.
They have a struggle in life, you know?
Mm-hmm.
They, they, they, How
can I say that politely?
Everybody carry their own sickness.
Sure.
Sure.
I
Dominique Barbier: mean,
I
Dominique Barbier: th- And,
Yeah
⦠Dominique Barbier: and, and they
get associated to somebody that
make their sickness better or worse.
Let, let me tell you, for, for the two
years that I was with with the Mystery
the Mystery as I say, was a very,
very close friend to, to me for, for
about maybe nine months or 10 months.
Why?
Because I was honest with him.
What does that mean?
Well, he used to, he used to he,
he, he, he used to be a little bit
not sure of a lot of things in life.
Like, he will, he will show you his
red shirt and tell you it, it was
black And everybody around him would
say, "Oh, yes, your shirt is black."
And then every time he asked me a
question, I would ask him, "Mestre,
do you, do you want the answer?"
And because I knew he, he
was a little tricky Mm-hmm.
I said, "Do you want the answer?"
And if he said yes, then I
will tell him what I thought.
I said- Yeah ⦠"No,
this, y- your shirt is red.
It's not black."
Mm.
And, and I think because of that I
was honest with him on so many level
that he, he, he enjoyed that because
at, at one point he did not know.
He did not know.
There was, there were so many difficulties
in his life on so many levels that,
that he could not see straight
When given that there were
these complexities and a certain
unhappiness perhaps, why was it
that his horses shone so much?
Why did this, why did it, why did
this not reflect in his horses?
Dominique Barbier: Well, you are,
you are digging very deep there.
I, I am, not to answer your
question, I think your your horses
are a reflection of who you are.
Mm.
Dominique Barbier: And he was a very
complex person, therefore he had
this very strange energy that he
worked with that was very successful.
Now I don't want to be bad, but nobody
really interview his horses about it.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay?
They, again again, the,
it's a very personal thing.
The mystery was into what can I do to
produce what I want to produce, and he
was producing better than anybody else
in the world that I can know about it.
Mm.
Now, w- was the horses involved in that?
I am not sure, not the way I
like them to be involved with me.
And I love my master, and I- Yeah ⦠it's
not negative things to say about him.
It's, it's, it's a, it's
he, he was who he was.
Now you know, I don't know if you know
Bettina, Bettina then that left us, yes?
Be- Be- Be- Bettina just
worked with him long-
Indeed
⦠Dominique Barbier: because of his
m- of her mother and, and, and-
Mm-hmm
Dominique Barbier: so on.
And, and I was teaching
her afterwards, you know.
A- a- anyway Bettina wanted to be him.
Mm.
Dominique Barbier: And, and felt
she had to be him for the world.
Right.
Dominique Barbier: And, and I used to
have a, a regular fight with her because
I never wanted to be the mystery.
I love him.
I think he's a, he was the
greatest man of, of so many things.
Do I want to be him?
No.
Mm.
No, no, no, no, no.
I do not want to be him ever, ever, ever.
I learned a lot from him.
He taught me a lot.
I, I had, certainly, my, my richest
time in my book, you know, that,
that I describe, those two years
that I had with him was certainly
one of the richest moment of my life.
Mm.
Dominique Barbier: And, and I thank him
for that deeply, but do I want to be him?
No.
No.
Dominique Barbier: Absolutely not.
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: For a lot of reasons.
It's, it's, it's, it's very interesting.
Y- you know, I'm just thinking
back to, to the, that book that
you referred to earlier, Dressage
for the New Age, that you wrote.
When did you write that book?
Long
Dominique Barbier: ago.
A
while ago.
Yes.
It thir- is it 40 years old,
would you say, that book?
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, at least.
Yeah.
45 years old.
And that was one of the first books
that I read when I was beginning
my journey into learning how to-
Address this dressing
of the horse business.
And I also, you know, had people say,
"Oh, you must go and read Oliveira."
And this is, this is when I was
just making my first trips down to
Portugal as well, but I, I was not at
that point lucky enough to meet Mr.
Balancer.
I was with some other people
before I found my way there, and
who didn't explain as clearly.
But I could see that, you know,
things worked extremely well.
And I remember taking an exercise
from your book and going,
"That looks pretty clear."
And this is back to my, my
point about clarity earlier.
Because I'd read, you know, some one
or two of Nuno's books, and it was like
reading, I don't know, the, the Book
of Enoch in the original Coptic text.
You know, just you could see that
there was much in there that was
absolutely wonderful, but I just
couldn't make head or tail of it.
And I frankly, you know, La
Guérinière is easier to read.
Yeah.
And then I read your book, and you s-
you said, "Start with this exercise."
You said, "Do this little vault.
Do this little do this little
circle in the corner, and then
you'll find that if you can stop-
When you've just gone through the
corner and you're on the wall, you'll
find yourself in this thing called the
shoulders in, 'cause you'll look at it and
you'll see, look, the ass is on the wall
and the shoulders are on the inside track,
so that's why it's called that thing.
And then if you go around again, so take
a mental snapshot sort of thing, and then
you go around again, then just see if
you can go one or two steps like that.
And I remember reading that and
going, "Well, that makes sense And
I went and tried it with my backyard
quarter horse, and it worked.
Boom.
And I was like, "Ah,
clarity, rationality."
And I remember thinking, I, I'm
so grateful to you, Dominique.
So I've sort of been, been following
you that way for, for some years.
And then of course when my, our mutual
great friend, Jo-Elle Dunlap, who runs
the incredible therapeutic program
and thoroughbred aftercare program,
Square Peg Foundation in, in California
when she told me she was working with
you, I was like, "Yes, absolutely.
Go work with that man."
Because I remember for me, that
opened a door of understanding,
where I was like, "I see."
And then I could go back to what Nuno
was writing, go, "Oh, I see, Nuno.
You're sort of telling me to do
that, but you just can't bring
yourself to put it in quite such,
quite such direct, you know, terms."
Dominique Barbier: Right.
He did not, he did not want
it to be clear at that time.
You know?
Yeah.
There was another era.
At that time, you know, you, you
sat to, with 10, 12 other stallion,
and you were in the, in line for
your shoulder in and your haunch in.
Mm-hmm.
And it was very I hate to say
that, but it was very mechanical.
Yeah.
And, and I hate to say that, but it's
very mechanical for a lot of people.
Mm.
I mean, even in the
Portuguese dep- department.
I mean, they are wonderful riders.
They are wonderful guy, but they are still
in a mechanical aspect of their life.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's a
question of, yeah, where one is
in one's personal philosophy.
That's
Dominique Barbier: it.
That's it ⦠you know,
and I wouldn't, I wouldn't put Mr.
Valença in there.
I think, I think he communicates a kind
of love to his horse that his horse-
Dominique Barbier: Yes
⦠just-
Dominique Barbier: Yes
⦠responds to.
Luis,
Dominique Barbier: Luis is a, is a
different, but again, because Luis-
Yes ⦠is a different human being.
He is.
He is.
I mean, the amount of love that
that man can exude, and that you
just see the horses basking in it.
Speaking of Portuguese there's a man
who I think often goes unsung in this
whole education process that you've
gone through, that I'm involved in
that I always encourage people to
get involved in, who was contemporary
with Nuno and but people don't
know about him so much, of course.
And that's Braganza.
Di- Dom Diogo de Bragança.
Dominique Barbier: Diogo, yes.
I know that you know a lot about this man,
and I, I think that it would be really
useful for listeners and watchers to be
aware of this person, because I f- I feel
that he- was what you're talking about.
The, but I d- I never met him.
I've only read his books, 'cause of course
he, he died I, I think, what, in the '90s?
But from what I can read he seemed to
be coming from a, that much more point
of compassion that you're talking about.
Can you, but perhaps you know, y- y- y- d-
tell me, tell us, d- talk to us about him.
Dominique Barbier: Well, you know,
when I was a, when I arrived in
Portugal the first time the mestri
at his picadeiro in Lisbon, yeah?
Mm.
Dominique Barbier: In north of
Lisbon At the place where Gui- Dr.
Guillem Borba was, was the, was the,
the man that started the, the, the
Real School, the Spanish school in
in, in Spain, and and the, and the
Portuguese school also there Yeah And
there were there were three people.
There was there was Dr.
Borba, it was Don Diogo
Braganza, and it was Dr.
I'm not going to have his name now.
He was a leading
pilot- The, the, the, the portly
man with the mustache who you always
see in the front of the pictures-
No ⦠from the Portuguese Royal School.
Him?
The, the- No
⦠Dominique Barbier: bespectacled
dude No, no, no
Dominique Barbier: No, not him?
No, no, no.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
No, no, he was he was he was a little
more aged than the, than the mystery
Okay
Dominique Barbier: He was anyway,
there were thir- Okay ⦠so there
was three person, and they were all
riding with the mystery in in Lisbon.
That's where I met them Mm And they
were the people that, that that
they knew, they read everything
that could be read on horses.
They, they speak Spanish and, and and,
and, and, and German and French, and
they read every single book there was.
And on top of it, they were
training horses in the different
books level and- Mm ⦠and
talking to the master about this.
And and they, they were all a student,
and they were just an incredible amount
of of, of knowledge that was there.
And and I was lucky enough to
be there at that time and to,
and to, and, and to see them.
And Diogo was certainly one of the most
I, I love his book the, the L'Equitation
Tradition Francaise is one of the most
wonderful books there is there, because
the, the man was able to very simply
explain all the different theory.
Like, he has a, he has a passage
there on, on, on Baucher.
Baucher is a very much
a la mode right now.
Everybody is a Baucherist.
But he, he, it, it's a, it, Baucher
was a very complex man also and a very-
Mm ⦠different method and this and that.
And, and I willâ¦
I mean, you need to read it,
and you need to forget about it.
Sure That's what I always say about it.
And but he is, in his book, ab- able
to explain to you very simply what
it was at least simply about Mm.
Mm.
And and, and again, a
very, very clear man.
Very, very clear man You know, at,
at, at, at that time, what they
did is that they, they used to
throw a party, and at at at Dr.
Balbas place, a small lit-
little picadero up the hill.
And they used to bring
horses in from the field.
And, and, and in a very Portuguese
way, they used to choose
not the, not the good horse.
They used to, to choose a horse that
was kind of a, not ugly-looking,
but not, not the most pretty one,
and not the most gifted one, yes?
And they used to present it there to
their friend, and all their friend was
there drinking and smiling and joking.
Says, "Oh, you will never be able to do
this," and, "That horse is so bad this
and so bad that," ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta.
And they were having a
wonderful Portuguese time there.
And then not even a year later, they
would have another party, and they
would show that horse doing everything
from from, from Grand Prix on that on
that horse in a, in less than a year.
And that was their way of of life.
That's what the- Mm ⦠what
that, what they were doing.
And in a, in a lot of a very very
happy kind of a way of doing it.
And and the clarity again of of Diogo
is, is, is, is pretty extraordinary.
Will youâ¦
I mean, I, I say his book is
certainly the best book of the century
for, again, physical ri- riding.
For, again- Yeah ⦠what,
what, what people do.
People do this, this wonderful physical
stuff that they do, for they can- Yeah
⦠they can mix it with love a little bit.
They can do this, they can do that.
But basically they use their
spurs, and basically they do
the banging and the pushing.
And it's not- It's not-
we not really saying it,
but that's what they do
⦠the, this book is Dressage
in the French Tradition.
Right.
Xenophon Press.
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
Dom Diogo de Braganza.
Now, just as about, let's
talk about spurs and things.
So, I've got nothing for or against spurs.
I, I happen not to use them.
Good.
Dominique Barbier: Good.
I'm very glad
and-
Dominique Barbier: I'm very happy for you.
I, I, I, I wouldn't even necessarily
say it was a kind of conscious
decision in like I, I made a conscious
decision, for example, to g- well,
actually, the reason I gave up fox
hunting was actually from the shamanic
world, but we, we can go into that.
Even though I still ride to hounds,
but I go after bloodhounds and we
hunt each other, it's different.
But- Yeah
With spurs, what's so interesting is it
just never occurs to me to put them on.
Like, it's just never in my mind.
Dominique Barbier: Well-
And- Well,
Dominique Barbier: let, let
me, let, let me tell you.
Spurs-
I've never found it, I've never
found that I've needed them.
I've never found that-
Dominique Barbier: Spurs are wonderful.
Spurs are terrific machine
for physical riding.
Oh.
You could do things with spurs
that you cannot do without spurs.
Right.
Dominique Barbier: Okay?
My- Can you tell us what those things are?
Dominique Barbier: Myâ¦
Well, l- effet ensemble, the to- together-
Yes ⦠effect and, and all that stuff.
It just, And
very, very quickly-
Dominique Barbier: Yes
⦠what is the effet ensemble?
Because a lot of people don't
know and a lot of them- Oh, my
Dominique Barbier: God
would be interested.
Can I, can I not talk about it?
Because I, I don't want to.
Thank, thank you, because nobody is
going to do it, and nobody should
learn about it because it's, it's
something that the horse doesn't like.
Yes.
Shall Iâ¦
Sh- sh- okay, in that case, because just
from a, a journalistic point of view, we
can't bring it up and not say what it is.
But-
Dominique Barbier: Okay.
Well, I can tell you, it is basically
saying yes and no at the same time.
Yes.
Dominique Barbier: And, and it's like
coming behind somebody and poking
him in the ribs as hard as you can.
While not letting him move.
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: That's it.
With, with aâ¦
Well, th- th- except they
don't attack with the spur.
They, they, they do this
gradual intent ofâ¦
So gradually, they- It
depends ⦠they put
Dominique Barbier: the
spurs
Dominique Barbier: on- It depends
⦠on and on and
Dominique Barbier: on It depends
gradually or not ⦠while
the horse kind of goes, "Huh."
Yeah.
Like that.
Grad- gradually or, or not.
And, Yes ⦠and I mean,
it's, it's very powerful.
It's very great.
But again, again, do the horses like it?
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: No.
No.
Dominique Barbier: Therefore,
I, I just said, "No.
Does your, do your horse like spurs?"
"No."
"Okay.
Well, do you like do, do, do, do,
do your horse like affruts, like
when you kick them in the teeth
because you, you can't control them?"
"No."
They, all those things-
Yes, if that's, if that's
what one's half halt is, yeah.
Sure.
Dominique Barbier: All those things are
not, are not correct for the horses.
No, I couldn't agree more.
But what, what, what I found is that
one can follow these guys' books
without doing any of that stuff.
Like I found that you
can take the- Rupert,
Dominique Barbier: I
Rupert- ⦠the steps of the dance and
just not do that stuff, and it still works
Dominique Barbier: Rupert, I, I
understand, but you cannot part,
p- take one part out and say,
"Well, let's read it," and think.
I think reading is wonderful.
I think reading, you can learn a lot by
reading a lot- Mm ⦠of books, okay?
Mm.
But that's what it is from another person.
Mm, true.
This is not your experience.
This is what somebody else
has put on a piece of paper.
That can help you?
Absolutely.
But if, if your goal is not the
same goal, I mean, if your goal is
happiness of the horse, eliminateâ¦
The way I did my stuff is by eliminate
everything my horse did not like.
Yeah, no, I, I'm with you.
I'm notâ¦
I, I think we're absolutely, absolutely
talking to the same point here.
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
I, I, I guess what I'm saying is
that I found that the horsesâ¦
'Cause here's the question people
often ask: Does a horse enjoy dressage?
And when people ask me
that- ⦠I say, "Well, it
depends how you do it," you know?
Because if, if you observe a horse in a
field when they're in their passion, and,
and that passion can be a passion of play
or a passion of anger or a passion of
lust they will do all of these movements.
And they will often offer the, like
you were talking about with your
horse, Don Giovanni, or my horse,
Zag, they'll often just offer them up.
And they'll offer them up joyfully
if you allow it to be joyful.
So what I found is that the mechanical
stuff of the in-hand work and showing
a horse, "Look, I'd like you to put
this inside leg here, and I'd like
you to put that outside leg here.
Now could you straighten
it out a bit like this?
And, oh, look, this happens," that that
can be done without any need for violence.
You don't need any kind of, as
you say, aggressive half halt.
You don't need any kind of spur.
You don't need any kind of anything.
You don't need to push with the seat.
You don't need to kick.
You can absolutely allow the horse to
access these passionate behaviors that
they already do in a way that they enjoy.
As you say, provided you don't do
something that they don't enjoy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But so, so when you, when you're
showing people how to do this,
because the, the dance is a beautiful
dance, and the dance has a function.
So for me, you know, that function
might be to have a horse that
can produce oxytocin in a child.
It- someone else, it might be something
else, but it could also just be for the
art and for the joy, or as the Irish
would say, for the craic, you know?
Just for the fun of it.
When you are showing people now
how to take that stuff that you
learned, which was shown to you with
whips, with spurs, with all those
things, and now to do it without
any of that stuff, what's your way?
What's your, your route
that you show people?
Dominique Barbier: Well, a- again
it's an individual thinking, and
you people do what they want to do.
And and, and, and if they define
their goal, if their goal is to have
their horse happy- Mm-hmm ⦠don't
do, don't do thing they don't like.
Yes, but th- that we've established, and
I, absolute- you're absolutely right.
Dominique Barbier: That's it.
Now, what do you show people to do?
Because, you know, you have
a structure to your teaching.
Dominique Barbier: True.
Sure.
Tell us the structure of your teaching.
Dominique Barbier: Well, we, we do
the, the very much, I suppose, the
same way that that, that you, you learn
from, from Luis, is that you have a
lunging- Mm ⦠and you, you allow
the horse to, to, to enjoy and play.
And then after that, you're, you, you
tell him that he has to do a little work,
and he needs to be in a certain position.
Yeah?
Mm-hmm.
And, and that position allow
him to be in a certain balance.
Mm-hmm.
And when he's a certain position,
a certain balance, he's able
to produce certain movement.
Yeah.
And you, and you do the, you do your,
your work in hand very, very simply, and
then you do the riding and the shoulder
in, the haunches-in, and the pirouette-
Mm-hmm
Dominique Barbier: very, very
clearly with a visualization.
And it
seems- Tell us about the visualization.
How do you help people
to that visualization?
What tools?
You must give them certain tools, 'cause
not everyone can do it so naturally.
Dominique Barbier: I think, I think
it's just a, i- i- it's just a form,
you know, for, for, for people.
It's aâ¦
For people, what are you sensitive to?
You are sensitive to music,
you are sensitive to look, you
are sensitive to smell, you are
sensitive to a lot of stuff, yeah?
The visualization is all about that.
It's all about a little, playing a little
video of what you want to have happen.
Mm-hmm.
Okay?
And, and, and and and I believe
that, that this, this little video
you play is as real as anything.
Yeah.
So when you play the video, the pl-
the video become the reality of the, of
your next ride You see, though, I was,
I was starting the conversation with you
about this, this double understanding
where, where, where, where life is and-
Mm ⦠what certain, what does that mean?
Mm.
Well, you, you have a certain
reality of what you think and a
certain reality of what's happening
and a certain reality of, of both.
Absolutely.
And when, and when you have those
both thing, that you have the, you
have the, the, the, the oneness
that everybody's looking for.
You have this, this this
centerization, the f- the feeling
that you are mind and body together.
And then you, you, you start
your spiritual thinking
from, from that aspect of it.
Absolutely.
I f- Iâ¦
What I see will normally block
people from that, in particular
in the equine situation, is fear.
So- Yes.
Absolutely ⦠and it's, it's fear ofâ¦
'Cause it's multiple fears
at the same time, right?
It's fear of-
Dominique Barbier: Yeah, but fear,
fear is simply what you don't know.
Okay.
Dominique Barbier: If you
know, there's no fear.
But, right.
But you're, you'reâ¦
When people don't know, they don't know.
Of course.
So when they're- Of course ⦠when
they're learning something
from you, they're learning
something they don't know.
So when you, if they're blocked by fear,
because let's say fear is the stress
hormone cortisol, and cortisol, you know,
is a neurotoxin that cuts for a nanosecond
the connection between the thinking part
of the brain in front and the keeping
you alive part of the brain at the back.
When that someone is in that situation
because they're afraid of their
horse, they're afraid of falling off,
they're afraid of you, the instructor,
they're afraid of not, of being seen
to be silly because they don't know.
They're afraid of, they're afraid
of 10 things at the same time.
That's nor- that's normal.
And we then say to them, "Okay,
we'd like you to visualize this
thing," but they can't access this
thing because the fear's in the way.
How do you help them through that?
Dominique Barbier: Well, I think
you, you, you have to, you have to
precise what you are fearing about
Mm-hmm
Dominique Barbier: Most people
are not fear the horses, they
are fear the energy of the horse
Mm
Dominique Barbier: Therefore
sometimes sitting on a bucket in
the stall re- reading a book is the
most important part for them to do
Just to be with the horse
Dominique Barbier: Just to be there.
Just to realize there's no-
there's nothing fearful about
it, just by being- Mm ⦠with it
Mm
Dominique Barbier: And, and then
from, from that, then they can touch
them, and they can, you know, groom
them, and do through the whole,
through the whole thinking things
When someone is coming into the arena
with you, let's say they don't know you so
well you, you teach all over the place, so
you must get some new people quite often.
They will come in with certain fear,
and of course perhaps they've brought
their horse to a clinic or a workshop
that you're doing, and the horse is in
an unfamiliar place, so it's looking
around and snorting, and perhaps this
person has bought themselves a very big
warm blood that you know, whose movement
is a little bit too much for them.
And, and you walk into there with all
of your history and all of your story
and all of your tools- Mm ⦠and you
gonna help this person To visualize
something- Yes ⦠that's almost
the opposite of what's going on.
How do you help them to unpick in
that hour that they have you for?
What are, what are some little-
Generally it's less, generally it's-
bits of homework that you can give
them to go home with, with that?
Dominique Barbier: Generally it's
much less than an hour because- Yes.
⦠nobody can, nobody can
take an hour from me.
Indeed.
Dominique Barbier: Nobody can.
Well, the very first thing I
think that they have to understand
is the, the, the be present.
Okay.
Dominique Barbier: Okay?
The being present is certainly
the most important part there.
Yeah.
And
how do they do that?
Dominique Barbier: Be, be present.
Again they have to practice, they
have to buy a little pillow and,
and sit by the tree or sit by the,
by their thing and just- Mm ⦠be
with, be with themself okay.
Because if they are not with
themself okay, they are not gonna
be okay with nothing around them.
But they can'tâ¦
Are you, are you telling them they need
to dismount and put their horse back in
the box and go sit under a tree for a
while- Well, some, some- ⦠and then
come back into the arena with you or-
⦠Dominique Barbier: sh-
some, some, sometime-
⦠something more
Dominique Barbier: immediate?
⦠sometime I do.
Yeah.
You would, you would be amazed.
Yes.
Dominique Barbier: You'd be amazed.
No.
But simply that, that, that they
have to identify what is happening.
Okay.
And if, if, if, if it'sâ¦
I- if, if they don't know what's
happening, if they don't know
the problem, they can't solve it.
And how do you help them to identify that?
I'm in- I'm interested.
Dominique Barbier: Identify, we
start talking about cooking sometime.
Mm-hmm.
We start talking about something else.
We start talking about, "Well,
what would you like to do today?"
Mm-hmm.
"What would you like to
you know, a little bit when
you have a lunch or what,
what are you going to order?
Are you going to do fish-
Mm ⦠or are you gonna do meat?"
Mm.
"Or are you gonna do vegetables,
or are you gonna do grain?"
Mm.
Okay?
In other words, just be there talking
to the person, know what's happening,
and then see, "How is the horse?"
And generally they tell you the whole
big story about how bad he was and how
good he is, and for that's wonderful.
Mm.
That's positive.
And then you say, "What would
you like me to do, you, to do- Mm
with, with you?"
And they, they have to come out
and tell you what they want, and
then you, you, you tell them.
Sometimes they say, "Oh, I
don't know anything yet."
I say, "That's a good start.
You know more than most
people right there."
Mm.
And then, and then you joke, you smile,
and you, you go through the process.
Mm.
Right.
So you're talking about you
establish human connection.
That's really what you're saying.
You establish empathy.
You establish- Well
Dominique Barbier: That's the, the
only way I know how I'm- Yeah ⦠am
I able to, to communicate those
people for the short period of a time.
Gen- generally I ask them to
be there for the whole day.
Right.
To see all the other people, and all the
other horses, and all that, that they
know a little bit about what was going on.
And, and after three days we've become
very friendly, we don't want to leave.
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: You
know?
No, I can seeâ¦
You know, the, the reason it, it might
seem asinine that I'm peeling back
the onion layers, and you can tell
that I'm a journalist- That's okay
Until I get to the answer, because- That's
Dominique Barbier: okay
⦠what seems obvious to you may not
seem obvious to somebody else.
And- Of course ⦠there will be
people who are listening who are at the
beginning of their instructor journey.
And it's one of the things which people,
I think we all forget when we're learning,
is that the instructor can often be as
afraid as us, and fe- but can't show it.
And so when one of the things
I often tell people is, "Learn
how to manage your instructor.
Remember they're just another monkey,
and they're probably as scared as you."
So if you can establish that connection
and actually advocate for what you want
and need, and say, "Well, I'm feeling
like this," or, "I'm afraid of this,"
or, "I'm uncomfortable here," or, "I,
actually I'm really enjoying this.
Could we do more of that?"
Or "I feel now that I need a little break
to just process this information," any
of these perfectly reasonable things-
W- a lot of people, I think when
they, when they become instructors,
they feel t- they, they also
want to give money's worth.
That, "Okay, this person's paying
me all this money for this hour,
I must give them, you know, 60
minutes of instruction, and otherwise
they're not gonna be happy with me."
And that's often the instructor's fear.
And sometimes that's true.
Sometimes, you know, you've, you
must have had this, when y- it's
very clear after 15 minutes-
Dominique Barbier: I used to.
I used to, but I, I don't anymore.
Now let me tell you-
Yeah,
Dominique Barbier: yeah ⦠it's,
it's all, it's all about w- who is
the instructor and who is the student.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and what they believe.
I had some different experience in
my life- Mm ⦠that when you are
around a certain people, you are in
a different, completely different
way that you are on, on your own.
Mm.
I did many, many trip in, in India,
and I have a lot of very, very good
people over there, and a lot of people
that just are basically healers,
if I can say in a general term.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
And you are around them and you feel good.
Mm.
Mm.
And, and I don't it's me, huh, but
I don't really analyze, "How am I
going to do this, or how am I going
to do that," or- Mm ⦠this and that.
It's going to happen or
it's not going to happen.
Mm.
And, and somebody in my presence
with the horse in my presence, and
me telling them what I want to tell
them, is going to change things.
Mm.
Mm.
It is automatically changing by the
presence of two people and, and the horse.
Right.
And, and I believe this is stronger
than anything else that I could
twist my brain and try to figure
it out, this and this and that.
Mm-hmm.
Therefore, right now you ask
me the technicality of how do
I do this and how do I do that.
To tell you the truth, I don't know.
Mm.
I show my face, and I, I'm the nicest
person as, as I can, that first of
all to the horse, secondly to the
person, and we're going to spend 20
minutes and half an hour together.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm gonna try to find one or two
points that I can help you to figure
it out during that period of time.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dominique Barbier: That's all.
It's all what it is.
Right.
But I think, again, you did give the,
you did give the mechanism there, which
is it's, it's relationship and empathy.
And- It- ⦠making someb- making,
creating safety is, I think,
what you're talking about too.
Dominique Barbier: Yes, yes.
It's, it's, it's, it's somebody that you,
you trust, and somebody who is there- Mm
and somebody that you think no
more, and somebody that cares
for your horse and for you.
Mm.
Well, when that, when, when
that, when that is created-
Mm
⦠Dominique Barbier: then
everything is there.
For me-
I would, I would agree.
I would agree So what
are you working on now?
Where, where is Barbier World going now?
Dominique Barbier: Oh my
God, where am I working?
I don't know what I'm working on.
I'm trying to, to go less and less,
and, and it doesn't work too well.
I mean, I, after COVID, I think we have
been attacked by all sorts of thing,
and I wanted to sort of slow down and,
and take things easy, and I, and I
don't think I'm very successful at it.
Therefore as I do with everything,
I take it a, a, a, a stride and, and
I'm, I'm still teaching everywhere,
and enjoying every time that I am with
my, my, my my, my horses and my people.
And I try more and more to create some
more off time, a little bit, if I can,
a little bit before, a little bit after.
Like, I am in Portugal right now.
I'm, I'm working because I am w- I
want to try to w- find a horse from,
from a, for my friend, and wonderful.
But basically, I want to create a very,
very nice time, and, and just enjoying
a cup of coffee, you know what I mean?
I do.
Dominique Barbier: And and because
there's, there's not much than that.
You know, I, I have the choice of,
of, I have, I have the great pleasure
to have great friends ev- everywhere.
You, you know Luis, he's down the
road, and I have a, a lot of other
friend that, from that era that I know
from there, and I want to visit them.
I want to say hello, and we're going to
have coffee, and we're going to have a
talk, and we're going to play with horses.
I- It- It's okay with me right now.
And do, please do tell Luis hello
from me, and give him- Sure, I will.
I will ⦠my, my never-ending
gratitude to that man.
I will.
I know from your friend and my friend, Mr.
Richard Williams at Xenophon
Press, that, do you, I think you
have a book that is either coming
out or has recently come out.
Is that not right?
Dominique Barbier: Say
that, say that again.
A new book.
I, oh, I have a new book coming up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tell us about the new book.
Dominique Barbier: Oh,
my God, it's difficult.
You definitely are a j-
journalist, yes, very good.
Well, yes, I have a new book.
And, and I have a good
joke about my new book.
It's going to be very, very, very
fast, and it's it's going to be a
simple a simple word on a simple
page, and it's going to be my book.
It's going to be called Consciousness.
Because I realize more and more,
as we were talking together this
morning, that it's a, that the,
the, the simple conversation that
we have is simply a different
way to express our consciousness.
Are we, are we loo- looâ¦
the way we are looking at life.
Some people are looking at life right
now, we, we, we, through your questions,
through your thing, you, you, you
have this certain, you know, way of,
of having people talking about their
life, and talking about how they,
they, they understand their training,
or they understand their teaching,
or they understand this and that.
And, and the, and the story,
the, the, the, the answer to
all that is consciousness.
What does that- So
tell us about the book.
What's in the book?
Dominique Barbier: What
does, what does that mean?
What does that mean?
Mm.
Dominique Barbier: It mean it depends,
the different of consciousness that you
are in i- i- is going to dictate your
question for this interview, for example.
Indeed.
Dominique Barbier: And, and it's
nothing to do with me or you.
It has to do with you thinking
about, well, we're going to
talk about the old master.
You are fascinated by
the old masters, yeah?
You read it, you that, you that.
And then you are fascinated by this,
you are fascinated by that, and you ask
what the other person enjoy, what do
they think about those, those question.
Especially for me right now I really,
I hate to say that to you, but I'm
really not on that level right now.
I am really not on the level
on, on anything because I, Iâ¦
the more the, the, the, the older
I get, the more I understand that
this is, this is not where it's at.
This is not how much leg do we apply.
This is not how much angle
we have in the shoulder in.
This is not how much is that.
It's part of me.
I, I still love it and I still
teach it, and I, and I do, do that,
but it's not where it's all about.
Is your horse happier with little less
angle because his outside leg and the
shoulder in can go forward instead
of going wrong like most people do?
Mm-hmm.
Dominique Barbier: That, that
is important to, to, to me.
But, but, but, but, but to have your
horse more happy doing it, that's
really is my concern right now.
And in your book, Consciousness, are
you helping people, do you feel, to
get to that point where they can-
Dominique Barbier: Again, what
is- Allow that happiness and not
block that happiness with their horse
Dominique Barbier: Rupert, again,
it is, it is my message right now
of where I am that can, I think,
can help people look better at what
they are doing with their horses.
Mm-hmm.
Improve their relationship with it.
Now, that's it.
Mm.
That's it.
Now would, would that
produce a better piaffe?
Yeah.
Will it produce a better shoulder-in?
Yeah.
Will it produce this and that more better?
Yes.
Sh- but, but really, the, the, my, my
goal is to put more smile on their faces,
that way their horses would be left
alone more, and they would be more happy.
I couldn't agree more.
It's funny, you know, when the whole,
you know, the, the training scale,
the training pyramid, which is an
interesting thing because the bloke
that came up with that, the German
bloke that came up with that- Yeah
himself said that he got it wrong, Yeah,
of course he did it wrong ⦠and said,
and said, "Oh, no, actually, it shouldn't
be rhythm first, it should be relaxation.
Everything should be relaxation."
Of course.
But you know, he, he edited his own thing.
The one thing I always thought was
so missing from the training scale is
where's joy on that training scale?
Exactly.
And you know, it's interesting.
I think you, you maybe think that I
am more technical than minded than
I am, but rather like you, I look at
the technology of riding in the same
way that I look at the technology
of shamanism in that I knowâ¦
'Cause you're ta- remember, you must
remember who you're talking to here.
You're talking to a man who rode
across a large chunk of Mongolia
with his five-year-old autistic
child sitting in front of him in a
saddle, going from shaman to shaman.
You know- That's it ⦠you lived
with the Bushmen for a longâ¦
You know, so I'm, I'm looking- That's
it ⦠through multiple lenses, of course.
That's it.
Dominique Barbier: That's it.
And I'm looking basically
through the lens of love.
'Cause what you're talking
about, consciousness, is
just another word for love.
Dominique Barbier: Sure.
The, and joy is just another
word for love, and there
really are only two emotions.
There's love, and there's fear,
and there's nuances of those
which we give other names.
But basically, that's it.
And are we, so are we
riding our horse in fear?
Is our horse in fear?
Is our horseâ¦
And sometimes we are.
Sometimes our horse is in fear.
Sometimes we're in fear.
So, and- Yeah ⦠if we're in fear,
if our horse is in fear, doesn't
necessarily even mean it's our fault.
The ho- there can be many things
going on inside that- Sure.
Sure ⦠that have nothing
to do with us at all.
Of course.
But yes, certainly our
job is to put a smile-
Dominique Barbier: Now, now
to, to, to- ⦠ourselves
and a smile in our heart, yeah
Dominique Barbier: I agree
100% with what you said.
Just to go back to answer my,
your question and not being so-
Mm ⦠such a hard-ass is is I am
trying to have a book about how
the language of riding must change.
The language of learning must
change in order to adapt ourself
to what we are actually doing.
Mm.
You know, the, the, the impulsion
is becoming the energy, yes?
Mm-hmm.
And a lot of different words like the
effort and all that stuff has to go away.
They, they, they don't mean
anything anymore because when the,
when your relationship start to
be more mental than physical, we
need other words to define- Yeah
the different complexes, the different way
of, of, of, of, of you looking at things.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I couldn't agree more.
The, yeah, interesting, if, if energy
replaces the word impulsion, do you
have a word, a, a way of thinking to
replace the concept of the effort?
Dominique Barbier: Well, the
effort, do you see theâ¦
A- again, right there,
the balance is there.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
We do not change the balance.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
This, this ideas of changing
the balance is ridiculous.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
The changing of the balance is
happening with your upper part of your
body and getting- Mm-hmm ⦠polar.
Yes.
And going to upper bod- body when
you are connected with your heart.
Mm-hmm.
But when you are connected
with your heart, where does
that connection come from?
Mm-hmm.
That connection is a mental connection.
Again- Yeah ⦠again, we cannot use the
same words because we do physical and we
do mental, because it's not the same idea.
It's very interesting.
I was teaching, I think, I think
about a year and a half ago or
so, and some- the person asked me,
"So, how do I keep the balance?"
Mm-hmm.
And then I realized you don't.
What you do is you lose it, and
you retrieve it, and you lose
it, and you retrieve it, and you
lose it, and you retrieve it,
just like you do when you walk.
It's just that when you were a
toddler and you were learning to
walk, and you face-planted many times-
Dominique Barbier: Yeah
⦠you learned to make the process more
efficient, but the commitment of
weight is still, of loss of balance,
is still the same, so that if I'm
walking along the road after too many
beers and I hit a paving stone that's a
quarter of an inch high- Your balance-
from the other one- ⦠your
Dominique Barbier: balance is
wrong ⦠still fall flat on my face.
In fact, I don't even need the beers.
And so it is, it's not about
trying to keep balance because
this is not a possibility.
It's about joyfully losing it
and joyfully reclaiming it.
And it's funny, it's often the
people who ask you those questions in
those teaching situations that make
you, that teach you what it is- Yep
you actually need to l- and you're like,
"Oh, my gosh, you know, thank you for
asking that question because now you've
actually made me turn my attention to
this in a way that's actually really
helpful for me, so thank you very much."
You know, so I, I, I, I, I would be
fascinated to know s- can you give
us a couple more examples of useful-
re-calibrations of language that you're
playing with there in that book, because
I think these things really do help.
Again, back to the visualization,
I think it, it helps if people
even just hear it now from you.
It, it, it plants seeds, yeah?
So you've got energy instead of impulsion.
Are there a couple of other things that
Dominique Barbier: have- Yeah,
we, we got, we got position
in- in- in- instead of action.
Okay.
Dominique Barbier: Position, no action.
Okay.
Dominique Barbier: In other
words, your position is the
one that determine your action.
Mm.
But you're not doing.
You see, the, the, the, the French
riding to its best is not doing.
Mm.
Mm.
The descente de main, descente de
jambe- Mm ⦠is cr- is created because
you put your hand and your leg in a
position where you cannot use them, yes?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Now, well, why is that?
Why is that?
Because you are going to have
a change of consciousness.
Uh-oh, the word again.
Mm.
Because when your hands and your
leg are in a position where you
cannot use them, what's happening?
Well, that's happening, you are going
to have a change of looking at things
differently because- Mm ⦠you are
going to get completely mental, and- Mm
⦠maybe with a touch of something else.
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
You see what I mean now?
I do.
How, how many people define that
descente de main, descente de jambe?
How many people told you
why we are doing it, eh?
They do- they don't use
the word consciousness.
They're afraid of it, because-
Yeah ⦠consciousness is looking
at things differently, eh?
They don't want to look
at things differently.
They want to look at what they look
and make it a little better, if they
can, but they don't want to change
it.
You see- It's interesting for
me, descente de main, descente de
jambe make perfect sense becauseâ¦
And by the way, for listeners that
don't speak French, that means,
descente means going down, but let's
just translate it as letting go of
the hand and letting go of the leg.
The-
Dominique Barbier: And putting
them, and putting them in a
position where you cannot use them.
Exactly.
That's
Dominique Barbier: important
⦠so when I'm up there with an
autistic child- that child
will do things sometimes.
I've had children, like, crawl up
onto my shoulders or crawl around me.
And at that point I can't be riding.
I've got to absolutely trust my horse
to be my compadre, and my leg and my
hand cannot act, which means that if
he's expecting my leg and my hand to
act all the time- Mm-hmm ⦠and then
suddenly I abandon him in that moment
and he feels lost, we could have a
not great outcome for that child.
But if I can prepare the horse and
myself together into a unit over
time, and I stress over time, this
is another thing about descente
demande, descente de jambe, it's not
something that happens immediately.
It's, it's a process like everything.
But let's say we go through- Yeah, but
Dominique Barbier: can I,
can I- Yeah ⦠can I say
Dominique Barbier: something?
It's a process- But, but for me, it's
entirely practical- It is ⦠because
there are so many times I cannot use- Yeah
⦠Dominique Barbier: my, my leg But
it is a process, but it's not.
You know, the big thing about the,
the, the big recipes of the chef is
that they never talk about descente
demande, descente de, de jambe.
Mm.
The, it was kind of a mystical
thing that they were not-
No ⦠talking about it, yeah?
Why?
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: But you
can have a descente demande,
descente de jambe at the walk.
Yes, sure.
Dominique Barbier: On, on,
on the circle with a pony.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
No, absolutely.
But- Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Dominique Barbier: Again,
again, it's a, it's a vision.
It's a, it's a different
way to look at things.
100%.
No, w- with that, 100%.
Yeah, we couldâ¦
In fact, I think we're going to have, with
your permission, we're going to have a
series of other conversations, I think,
around these concepts because, which
we should do as YouTube conversations
that are different to this podcast
because this podcast is much more
really how did you become you and what
can we, you know, steal from you as we
listen to you, which we've, I certainly
have stolen a lot from you already.
And you know, I'll continue
to steal more hopefully.
But I think these nuances are really
worth exploring as their own conversations
because, again, I think they're very
helpful for people as they are exploring
the journey of this dressing of the
horse thing as a way to love, as a way
to consciousness, as, as an expression of
consciousness, as an expression of love.
And-
Because yes, as, as you say,
y- y- y- you, you canâ¦
I- if I'm cantering with a child and I
need descent demand, descent de jambe
because that child is now taking all
of my attention, is taking my hands,
and Well, you taught- ⦠that's
very different to the situation where
Dominique Barbier: I- You, you taught me,
you taught me so- s- also something today.
I never thought- Yeah ⦠about having
a child- Yeah ⦠galloping with me,
but if it, you need a child to think
about it, that's fine with me also.
Yeah.
But when you are on your own and,
and, and, and just doing it with, with
nothing- Yeah ⦠to to, to consciously
have a different knowledge and different
aspect of life that's, that's fabulous.
Yeah.
Fabulous.
Yes.
And interestingly, what that brings me to,
you know, you talk about consciousness,
you talk about love, purpose.
Service.
So the only reason I'm doing the dressage
thing at all was because I found it was
a way to bring wellbeing to a child,
and then I found- Yep, yep ⦠that
you could also use it, if you did it
the right way, you could use it to
give wellbeing to the horse as well.
Fantastic.
And now you've got a horse with wellbeing
that can give a child wellbeing.
And, and
Dominique Barbier: you-
Fantastic ⦠and you get, and
you get more and more conscious-
Indeed
⦠Dominique Barbier: of what you
are doing, and more and more you,
you elevate your understanding of
everything else with, with that.
And this is a difficulty with competition,
is that the service- Well, well-
There's nothing wrong intrinsically with
competition, but the service is to theâ¦
is really to yourself.
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
Not, not, not, not-
Dominique Barbier: and
that's where it gets tricky.
And that's where it gets
tricky ⦠not, not even.
Not even.
Can you see how many happy competitive
people you have in the world?
No.
Yeah, sure.
Not
Dominique Barbier: many.
Okay.
Well- Yeah ⦠that's just, that's
just a, it's just one of those
illusion that you can create- Mm-hmm
and then, and then, and then you enjoy it,
and then you, people do this, do, do that,
and they, and they mature, and- Mm-hmm
⦠and the, they, they mature, they decided
they don't wanna compete anymore.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Dominique Barbier: Because there's-
Absolutely ⦠something else there.
There's so much more.
I think that, that really the,
the, the, the way, the way we
ride is, is is, is more a path
to, a, a, a path to enlightenment.
A path to- Mm-hmm ⦠really realize
who we are- Mm-hmm ⦠really.
Yeah.
Dominique Barbier: And
that's, and that's what it is.
That's a, that's a human experience thing.
What was it Confucius says?
To be happy, practice the arts.
Dominique Barbier: Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah,
Dominique Barbier: yeah.
Absolutely.
Listen, my friend, this has been
wonderful, and we've, we've, we've hit the
two-hour mark, and I think that I c- I can
think of, like, 20 further conversations
I would like to have with you.
So for, but also I think that the,
the listeners and the viewers would
like to know how to get in t- contact
with you and how to access your
books and how to come and train with
you and work with you if they can.
So could you t- outline how they can make
contact with you, w- websites, what are
your books, et cetera, so that they can-
Dominique Barbier: Okay.
Well, the- ⦠do that ⦠the
best way, the best way for
this is to go to Barbier Farm.
Yes, Barbier Farm, at at ewell.com.
Mm-hmm.
And they would have all my books
and all my saddles and all my videos
and all my I have a foundation.
They can they can have a
subscription to, to my foundation.
They can do whatever they want, and
then they can pick up the phone.
Okay.
Even, even my phone, I'm always
available, or send me, send me an email,
and they say what they want to know.
And generally, I, I'm pretty good.
I do answer most of, most of, of it.
And if I don't answer, send it
back, and I will answer you again.
And then if you have nothing,
you know, better to do, come
to California when I am there.
Make sure I am there 'cause I'm,
I am generally somewhere else.
Therefore, just tell me.
We do a, we do a symposium and a
clinic at, at home in California,
and, and then you can catch me.
You can have, have the
list of where you catch me.
You can catch me this week in Portugal,
and next week in in in Switzerland,
and and the week after in Idaho.
Therefore-
So I'm looking at your
website here, and it's- Yes
dominiquebarbier.com.
Dominique Barbier: That's it.
So Dominique with a Q-U-E.
Yes.
And Barbier, of course, B-A-R-B-I-E-R.
Yes.
Dominiquebarbier.com.
And you've got your telephone number
right here on the contact page, so- That's
Dominique Barbier: it.
I got everything.
Okay.
So, and I presume there's
an email on there as well.
The books, my f- for my friends,
I'm just addressing the listeners
and viewers, they're worth reading.
And so get yourself some of Dominique's
books, and, you know, you just have-
Yeah ⦠to go to Zenathon Farm.
And, and then
Dominique Barbier: just
a little word about this.
Buy it from me, don't buy it from Amazon.
Yeah.
Amazon is gonna kill us.
And for spend a, spend a little bit
more money, and I promise I would
feed my horses with that money.
Yes.
Because all, all- I, as a, as a
fellow with horses ⦠because all,
all, all my money go to my horses.
Therefore, but don't go to
Amazon, just buy the book from
the people who write the book.
It's much more important than that.
Exactly.
We don't, we don't make money on books
anyway- No ⦠as everybody knows.
That's true.
We don't make books to make money either.
No.
Therefore, it's okay.
But but buy the books from the,
from the farm, and then, and
then come and visit any time.
Super.
And I'm certainly going to.
I'm gonna be in California next year.
So, In- ⦠maybe we should, I'll
try to make sure that you're there.
Maybe we can
Dominique Barbier: Absolutely
⦠spend some time together.
I, and, and I have a good Merlot I forgot.
I would, I wo- I would I would
make you taste my Merlot.
A wonderful Merlot I have.
Well, you know, just to be polite,
I guess I could perhaps drink
a, a, a, a glass of good wine.
Dominique Barbier: That's
it.
I mean- That's it ⦠maybe for
quality control I might have to
have a second glass just to make
sure- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
if it was actually as
fantastic- And the, and
Dominique Barbier: may, and maybe
by accident I will give you a
bottle to, to bring home, you know.
It's it's, th- these things oneâ¦
Yes, I've, I've found there's, there's
a progression, and then I can, then I
can go through a different process of
descent du main and descent du jambe.
Dominique Barbier: That's it.
Then it's much easier, much easier.
Much
more direct, yeah.
Yes.
And I can- Very good ⦠I can, I can, I
can then lose my consciousness, which is-
Dominique Barbier: That's it.
⦠the mad, the mad joy of life, is it not?
Dominique Barbier: And then when
you find it, you find it bigger.
A little slower each time, but yes.
Dominique Barbier: That's it.
Well, thank- Well,
listen my friend, it's been a- Thank
Dominique Barbier: you so
much
it's been a delight.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank
Dominique Barbier: you so much
Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
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