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Chase: I've listened to tons and tons of your sermons. We were just talking before the podcast went live and you recently did probably a few months ago at [00:02:00] this point, but a sermon on the, the issue of transgender and, and, and gender ideology and stuff like that, and the way you handle it.
I mean, I want to talk about it later, but I think every pastor listening to the podcast now should go and tune into that, just the empathy. And the way that the gospel made was made front and center, and I think that people that. Are going through that that struggle that a lot of us can't really empathize with or identify with.
They felt loved and I think they felt pointed to Jesus. And so I reached out to Aaron Brockett and asked if he would come on the podcast and he graciously accepted. So we've never met before. And I was just wondering tell me a little bit about yourself. Like how did you get called to ministry specifically?
I mean, this is, we're gonna dork out about preaching and sermons and stuff, so how did you, did you feel a call to preach? What, what was that like growing up?
Aaron: Yeah, I think initially it wasn't so much a call. This might sound kind of weird, it wasn't necessarily a call to ministry first. It was a call to preach first, which,
Chase: Oh, wow.[00:03:00]
Aaron: Some of that might've been just some lack of maturity on my part, you know, and kind of the way that I'm wired. I, I, because of that, I, I don't know that my motives were. I think it was a genuine experience that I had, but I, but I also wonder what were my motives around some of that, and this is why whenever I have a young person come up to me and say, I really aspire to preach. I always ask why? Like, why? Like what, what's your motivation around that? And I think it's, I.
In some way, you know, I mean a lot of lead pastors, if you know, we're talking Enneagram stuff or like three sevens and eights and I'm a three and so that like three in me, it kind of like I can read a room like I. Enjoy, you know, being able act, I enjoy being able to impact people in a crowded room, that sort of a thing.
Well, there's a dark side to that and then there's a redeemed side to that. And so I think that, you know, obviously if he didn't have that aspiration of wiring your gift, I mean, God can take that and he can use it. [00:04:00] So I think initially, you know, my grandfather was a preacher growing up, so that had, he was great.
He's still alive. He's 95. And I had, I wasn't super, super close with him. He, he pastored in St. Louis, which was about four and a half hours from us. So I wasn't around him a ton, but from the time that I was around him, like he was he was a great grandfather to me. And, but, but he, you know, he was pa, he was Reverend Brock.
And, you know, I, I never visualized myself in that. Role. My dad was a bit of a disenfranchised preacher's kid, so he kind of rebelled against a lot of that. So that was kind of the upbringing that I had. So I never really saw myself going into ministry. I'm a little bit more on the introverted side. I always kind of thought you had to be an extrovert in order to go into ministry, so I.
It was initially God used I think my lack of options. I didn't know what I wanted to do for a living and I was trying to figure all that out. And then just by divine [00:05:00] appointment you know, I don't know, I'm sure you probably recognize the name Kyle Idleman and maybe some of your listeners do too, who's an author and a pastor at Southeast Christian.
Kyle and I grew up together, so Kyle and I went to kindergarten together all the way up through grade school, high school. We're actually college roommates our freshman year. God really used that friendship with him in many ways to sharpen me, I think, as a person first and foremost, and then to really kind of guide me.
I mean, it was, it was Kyle actually. Kyle was trying to figure out what he wanted to do and he actually. Brought up Bible college and I was like, I don't even know what that is. And so I actually, Kyle and I went on a bible college visit together our senior year in high school. God really used that friendship in many ways, I think to refine me, shape me, point me down that path.
And and then once I got to Bible college, I just thought I'd be there about a year. I just basically went, 'cause I didn't know where else to go. And I was starting to hear some of the best sermons I'd ever heard in [00:06:00] chapel. At the time, Ozark had. Two professors in particular that are, I just feel are homological giants in the land.
And Mark Scott and JK Jones. And they've written a book called Let the Text Win. They've co-written that together. They've written books on preaching. Aside from that, still stay in touch with them to this day. And they were so influential on me as a freshman in Bible college. It was in that time period that I really began to feel God calling me to, to preach.
And I really resisted it. I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't interested in going into ministry. I really wasn't interested in public speaking and you know really wrestled with God on that. So my initial call, once I kind of got over that, I was like, okay, I feel like God's calling me to do this. And then the call to ministry.
And, and leadership and all the, a lot of the other things that I do, because I would even say I'm not really like a leader. Who knows? I've gotta preach on the weekend. I'm more like a preacher, who knows? I've gotta lead during the [00:07:00] week. And so I kinda lead from preaching even from that platform. And then the other stuff I've had to kind level up in as the years have gone by.
Chase: yeah. I mean, Enneagram, we would match and I feel the same
Aaron: Hmm.
Chase: That's interesting though. What effect do you think Mark Scott and who was the second guy you named?
Aaron: JK Jones.
Chase: Jones, what, what effect did they have or influence did they have on some of your earlier sermons or just your approach to preaching in general in those
Aaron: Well, I mean. I tried to parrot them, you know, and I, and I think, I think, I think most of us probably do. You know, and I don't think that's a bad thing. I mean, in order for you to figure out what your voice is, I think you have to do bad karaoke for a while. And, and so, and then, you know, just make sure that the people you're parroting are good.
And, and that's, that's what I was doing with those guys. Even now, I think at times, like traces of my voice. When it's, this is how Aaron Brockett would preach a message. [00:08:00] JK Jones and Mark Scott are baked in there. I mean, there's some, I just, at times I can, I can feel it. I can sense it, I can see it, and I'm not trying to parrot them anymore.
They just, they're just sort of baked in there. What they really did for me, I mean, they were just, they were brilliant with unpacking a text. Both those guys really hammered expository preaching. And to me and what that means and what it doesn't mean. The way that they were able to, I mean, JK is just a masterful storyteller.
Mark Scott preached the best sermon on forgiveness I think I've ever heard of my entire life when I was in Bible college. And, and then they really brought in a lot of the history. So they were like introducing me to all the dead guys and what. Brought out, you know, what were the strengths and the things that they contributed to this legacy of preaching.
And it just, it, it made me, I, I never had like a respect for the preacher or the sermon like I had whenever I got introduced to, to them. And they were so kind with me. You know, I mean, one of the things that obviously we'd [00:09:00] have to do, you know, his preach a sermon in homiletics and we'd record it. And then my, I think my home lytics classes were all like at seven in the morning as brutal.
And then you would go back in, in the afternoon and sit down just the two of you and watch the
tape. And, and it was so painful to sit there with your professor next to you who's you're preaching idle and you're watching it. And I just remember just wanting to just run and hide 'cause it just looks so aw.
I still can't stand watching or listening to myself preach, but, but he would pause it. And he would say, now, you know, Aaron, like right here. Like, that's something I can't teach you. Like you just have that, like the Holy Spirit's gifted you with that. And, and then obviously he would point out things that I needed to work on, but I would always leave every session thinking, man, I think I could do this.
And just like, just their belief in me, even after I graduated. Bible college, you know, obviously still, I mean, I've only got, I don't even know if I had a hundred reps under my belt after I graduated Bible college. So I'm getting into my first ministry [00:10:00] still struggling, and so I would send Mark Scott in particular, I would send him my sermon tapes, and that's dating me.
This was like 2000, I think whenever I, my first full-time ministry, and I would send it to him and he would literally send me a full like sermon feedback debrief sheet. Just like Aaron, this is what you did. Well, here's what you could work on. And he did that like the first couple years post-graduation when I was in the ministry setting.
So just in fact he's, he's retired from the Bible college, but he's preaching at a church in that same town. He had me as a guest speaker this last summer, and it was so much fun
Chase: How cool is that?
Aaron: And so I'm, I'm, I'm internally indebted to, to both those guys and there's some others as well.
Chase: I've asked every guest this, but how long do you think it took for you to actually find your unique fool?
Aaron: That's a good question. I mean, I think what is it? Tim Keller always used to say, did he say a thousand reps?
Um, I, I think he, it was something [00:11:00] in that line, in that time, and I don't know if it's a thousand or not. I, I will say that, to the point where I realized that, okay, I'm gonna have to stop. I'm gonna have to start cutting down the percentage of my sermon where I'm parroting my favorite preachers.
And slowly decrease that percentage. And I think somewhere, I don't know, and this is like, I haven't even really thought through this too much, but I think to the point where like 80% of the sermon, I'm not trying to pair it. You know, it's like, and then you're starting to just phase that down whenever that rep number is.
And so for some guys they may reach it a little faster than others. I will say this, it it feel, I don't know how you feel about this. It feels like. Especially in my first 15 years of full-Time ministry, it felt like every two years my preaching muscle was getting broken down and rebuilt again, kind of like breaking down a muscle in a gym.
And what I mean by [00:12:00] that is like at the end it was almost like it was a two year increment where at the end of the two years. It just felt like everything that I had, kinda my process, the way I wrote, how much I manuscript, how many times I've reviewed it ahead of time, like all that would just get broken down almost to the point of disorientation.
Like I was like, I don't even know if I know how to do this anymore. And then it would get built back up again. And then when it would, it would, I would come back stronger. And I would even say here recently, even like first of this year. I've maybe gone through another one of those, not to this point.
So much of disorientation. I will say I'm intentionally I'm trying to put in just as much energy into prep, but I'm not trying to wordsmith as much. I'm trying to just get the, okay, what's the text say? How do I wanna intro this? What's the key thing that I need people to know and do? And then let me just kind of bake in it and, and then let me [00:13:00] just sacrifice precision for connection and get away.
Like this. Last week's a great example. I totally threw the last like two pages of my notes out the window. 'cause as I was just preaching, I was like, you know what? I don't think that's what. The church needs to hear what I prepared isn't what they need to hear. And so I just walked away from my iPad, walked to the front of the stage, and I was riffing.
I was like high wired without a net, and I got done and the production team came up to me and they said, okay, we realize you went off script. We just didn't even try to follow you at that point, but what you said was so much better than what you wrote. And I was like, I don't even know what I said. So I don't even know how to replicate that the next hour, but the next two hours were even stronger.
And so it's almost like it's, it's almost like this. If you've ever had a week, I'm sure you have where. You have to travel and so your rhythms for prep get broken up. And so you're like trying to write a sermon on a plane in a hotel room and you're like, oh man, my, all my rhythms are messed up. And you get to Sunday and you're like, well, this is gonna, I don't know how this is gonna go.
And you end up speaking from your [00:14:00] heart and it connects way better than when you spend all that time. It's kind of like that where I'm just like, okay, even in my regular rhythms of the week, let me just leave enough room to really speak from the heart. It's that sweet spot I. You've prepared. It's not like you're being lazy, but you're also leaving a lot of room for God to do his thing.
I've even started to do this in my sermon notes. I'm just like, I don't exactly know what I'm gonna say here, Aaron. Just preach. I'll like write that in my notes. Like just preach. Like just let the Holy Spirit like kinda lights you on fire and kind of see where it goes. And it's always so learning. I think when I was a younger preacher, I wasn't.
As willing to, to trust the Holy Spirit in that. I think, man, I could fall flat on my face and crash and burn and I could. That's true. You could. But man, the payoff of just, I always, I always, one of my favorite analogies or definitions of preaching is like, put all the firewood together. But the Holy Spirit has to ignite it.
Like you can't ignite it and just do all the work to make sure that [00:15:00] the, supplies are there for there to be a fire lit and then watch and see what God will do. So would say it's that, that sort of ebb and flow,
Chase: No, that's, yeah. I've found that too. I think two of the best sermons, I mean people have told me two of the best sermons I've done in probably the past two or three years have been when someone got sick. We record on Thursday night. So when someone gets sick on Tuesday night and you got 24 hours to put it together and it's like, okay, well I guess I gotta do this.
And it's like, oh, what takes me 20 hours just took me five and it turned out great. So,
but it's probably easier to do that would you say? Because. When you're at your home church with looking into faces of the people that you married and you just did a funeral for this family and it's easier speaking from the heart than it is to, I mean, I probably wouldn't feel comfortable going to a guest speaking gig and just throwing away the last two pages.
I mean, maybe by that point there's trust and stuff, but.
Aaron: yeah,
Chase: when you kind of talk, well you already talked [00:16:00] about a little bit that you do have a process and you do have a rhythm. So I do want to geek out about that a little bit. Knowing what you just said, like nothing about this process or you can't out technique the Holy Spirit, you know, but you can put yourself in a position to speak as confidently as you can about what God's word says.
So what is what, how do you go about planning sermon series? I think you guys have some of the most creative sermon series and, and branding for that matter. It's just. Something that grabs the attention. So how do you plan your sermon series, and then we'll get into what does your week to week look like after that?
Aaron: Well, I always have a open document of notes where I'm just constantly jotting down ideas that. Because always the best ideas come to me when I'm not trying to do sermon planning. And so some sort of a file that I just park ideas and topics and books and that sort of thing. And then I've got an Excel sheet that I just always have open.
It's, and it's just, it's for me alone. And it's just my years teaching [00:17:00] schedule. And I just, I January through December and I'm always trying to work out. You know, like right now I would say 2024 is about 85, 90% finished as far as the Excel sheet has, sermon series sermon series the big idea if it's a, a straight through expository series, the book we're gonna be in, actually, I, even if it's not, I've got a signed text to all the messages and the big idea January through this next December,
and then I'll.
Chase: with the elders or with the teaching team to pray through that like three months before? Is this kind of like, Hey, here's what God's putting on my heart?
Aaron: No, I, what I do is I've tried to actually do this with a team of teachers and people, creatives on our staff, and it always feels like we run around chasing our tail. And so what I try to do is I try to work on the Excel document and the, and actually all year long when it comes to [00:18:00] that open document of ideas, I'll ask various.
Leaders, people on our teaching team, campus pastors, like, Hey, you know, what do you think our church needs to hear? That sort of a thing. So I'm populating it with ideas they've already given me. But then when it comes to the Excel sheet, I scr, I, I sketch all that out and then usually I send it to them in about six month increments and I just say, Hey guys, here's what I've planned out.
What do you think? Am I missing anything? Are there any holes? Do we think this? Do we think that the church needs to hear something else? And they get feedback that way? And then whatever feedback they give me, then I'll go back in and read, readjust it, and then actually that Excel sheet never goes out to any of the staff.
We have a software program called Miro, and so whoever oversees Miro on our team, I send it to them and then they. Plug in what the content that I've sent them in Excel into Miro for the entire staff to see. And so they've got the, they've got the, at least a six month sketch, of where we're headed. But I'm [00:19:00] pretty much planned out, out for the year.
As, as far as like the annual plan goes.
Chase: Now, I used to just work on sermons week by week. Just spend all the time doing that now because I mean, my manuscripts due on Monday. I. And we record on Thursday. We do a run through on Wednesday. I was working on, you know, I'm working on the sermon that I'm gonna preach next week before I preach the week of, and I've started to work on sermons way ahead of time.
Just like you're saying, I'm walking down the road, I'm taking notes and stuff. Is that something that you do? Like are you working on multiple sermons or do you have a pretty strict weekly,
Aaron: Now, you know, I just, I have the hardest time working ahead when it comes to granular. Now I love, I love year long sermon planning. Like it's one, I mean, sitting down with that Excel sheet and just plugging in creative ideas and, oh man, we could do a series here would be a, this would be a five week series.
This is a big idea. This is what we're gonna try to cover in the time. I love doing all that. When it comes to then swooping down into the granular and actually starting to write that [00:20:00] sermon, it's painful for me. And and so.
Chase: crunch? Do you need the, the deadline? Yeah.
Aaron: And well, yeah, and, and I, and so for that reason, I typically cannot write a sermon until the week of.
I just don't feel, I just don't feel enough fire for it. And now I've had people tell me like, we'll create imaginary deadlines for yourself. And I'm like, that doesn't work. 'cause I know that it's not, it's an imaginary deadline. So for me it's like typically, you know, I don't start, I mean, on Mondays I'm kind of doing hard share work and I'm framing the message.
Tuesday is full on writing day and I'm gonna try to get about 85% of that message done on Tuesday. And then I try to have it finished by Wednesday at noon. 'cause that's when we have our production meeting. And I try to have at least enough kind of in the can for them to kind of know general direction.
But I just can't now, unless it's a rare circumstance. This weekend, I'm actually traveling. I'm not preaching, but, so I, I've got [00:21:00] maybe 700 words written for the next weekend, only because I know next week's writing rhythms are gonna be off because I'm gonna be traveling. I don't get home till late Thursday night.
So you know that that's would be an exception to that. But most of the time I'm in a week of kind of a guy and I talk to guys who say, yeah, I've written. 3, 4, 5 weeks out and I just file it and I pull it out and I'm just like, I hate you so much. Like the fact that you're able to do that, my brain just does not work that way.
So
Chase: I think I work on structures or I work on, here's the text, how could I. Because I don't work off the same structure. Every sermon's different. So I, and once I have those ideas, I write 'em down. But yeah, I think I'm the same. So when you're looking at that blank page on Tuesday and you know, basically the main idea and you know the text that you're gonna preach out of, there's so many different ways that you can approach it.
And there's a lot of different ways that you do approach it. I've listened to a lot of your sermons, so you know, some people do work off the same rubric. They, they'll use an Andy Stanley rubric or they'll use a this or. That [00:22:00] outline is what they use for every message, even though it might not sound like it if you saw their outlines, that would be it.
So what do you do Tuesday when you sit down to a blank page? Like how do you get from that blank page to a outline
Aaron: Well, well, and hopefully I'm, I'm trying to get to the place where it's not a blank page because I don't really work well by starting from a blank page. So I'm, I will try to like, maybe create notes in my phone knowing that a sermon's coming up. Like, here's some potential outlines, or here's a big idea I wanna build off of.
And, and then I've also got somebody on our team right now who has been preparing what, what we just call sermon briefs. And a sermon brief is about a page and a half of maybe some of the primary commentary work. So I don't have to spend a ton of time doing commentary work, although that's for me anymore, like that's probably the easier part of prep.
Now, usually I'll, it used to be that I would consult the commentaries first. Now I [00:23:00] consult the commentaries last. I'm just basically wanting to know, okay, like, what did I miss anything? Did I get anything wrong? Let me go back and look
at that.
Chase: near a seat? No, it's not. Okay, good.
Aaron: Exactly. Well, and there will be somebody who will tell me it is so, so.
But and so basically the idea of a sermon brief, I think for me, like the most time consuming thing is finding like. Stats, quotes, articles, you know, it's the newspaper stuff when you're talking about Spurgeon Bible in one hand, newspaper in the other. It's that kind of a thing, because that can just take so much time.
And oftentimes you can do all this research around a, an illustration, a joke, a stat, a quote, and then it's not, you don't even end up using it. So I just, I, so the, so if somebody's preparing sermon briefs, they'll maybe try to include a few of those things. In that, and then, and then here's the key is I'll say, Hey, give me, here's the big idea.
We've already settled in the big idea for the message. Or dominant thought, or whatever you wanna call it. And then now give [00:24:00] me three or four, maybe not that many, two or three potential ways we could outline this. And what that will do is then that'll spark. 'cause for me, I would say outlining is the weakest part of sermon prep for me.
I just don't outline very well. And so some guys are really good at that, so they don't need that help. But I need the help. And so it's almost like somebody's handing me a pre-framed house and I'm, and then I'll either use it or I'll use parts of it. Or I don't use any of it actually. It just sparks like ideas for me, which is why whoever does my sermon briefs, I have to just say, man, you gotta have thick skin because I may not use anything you've given me, but you've still helped me,
Chase: Yeah.
Aaron: by, by generating some, some thoughts in my head.
So, so a lot of that will be for me when I sit down to write, I'm trying to think, okay, what's the text say? What's it mean? What's God saying to each one of us individually and what do we do with what he said? And [00:25:00] those are really like the four kind of big, basic questions. And then I just try to go, okay, now how do I communicate in a way that not only fills their head, but connects to their heart? And, and that's when for me, it just is the most easiest for me to just to start thinking about the last DM I got from somebody, or the last conversation I had with somebody in the parking lot at the grocery store, or, you know, whatever that I say, like the transgender sermon you referenced. What helped me to be so empathetic was the fact that there's a young 15-year-old girl in our church that my wife and I just absolutely love, who told us a few months ago that she thought she was a boy.
And she's so sweet and she's had some tough experiences and I knew she was gonna be listening. She was gonna be sitting in the room when I gave that talk. And what enable, I've had a number of people tell me like, that was the most empathetic mess it was because of her. I knew she was in there. And so it's like I'm, I'm speaking to her.
And so I think for [00:26:00] me it's like, and you know, I try to think about the 30-year-old guy that listens to Joe Rogan and Jocko during the week and what's his response to this text gonna be and how can I communicate to him? And I'm trying to think to the single mom who's like. You know in over her head and she's hurting and she's trying to provide for her kids, and she's desperate.
Like and, and so I'm trying to give people in a message. I'm trying to go, okay, if all else fails, well let's take, obviously take, like, I wanna be faithful to the text. I don't want to speak any heresy. I wanna be accurate. I wanna make sure we make a beeline to the cross and it's there's it's centered on Christ and we're calling people to salvation.
All. There's all that. But then it's like the big overarching theme is. Who, even if somebody's sitting in there and they're visiting for the first time, or they don't buy any of this stuff, I want them walking out going, huh. I don't know if I believe all that just yet, but man, that was so helpful. It made sense, and that was hopeful.
Like I've got hope. And my theory is, is that [00:27:00] somebody will. Come back if it was helpful and hopeful and if they keep coming back. 'cause it was helpful and hopeful Eventually, if you've got all that other stuff in there, faithful to the text, the Bible's sharper than any double-edged sword you make taking people through the cross.
It's centered on Christ. You're telling people how to get saved. They'll eventually come in, they'll bump into Jesus. But it's gotta be helpful and it's gotta be hopeful. And so just the whole writing process, I'm just thinking through all those lenses. And so for me it's like, okay, how do I wanna introduce this?
What's the transition from the introduction to the main body of teaching? How do I wanna walk through the text and cut it up? And then what's the primary takeaways from this? What do I want people to do with what they've just heard? And then how do I connect to their heart to where it's just unmistakable?
That they had an encounter with the living God. And I, I love what, you know, Tim Keller used to say is that he loved it when the first part of his message, people's heads were [00:28:00] downs and down and you could tell they were taking notes and then he knew that they were, he was connecting with their heart when they put their notes down and they started to look up at him.
And what I I love is when people maybe start off the message kind of like this, and then somewhere around three-fourths or so away through the sermon they go.
Chase: Yeah.
Aaron: Like, when I see, when I see Jaws gaped open and people lean forward, I'm like, oh, the Holy Spirit's working 'em right now. So I'm building everything to that moment, like of, of that encounter where people are like, I'm being worked right now
Chase: Mm-Hmm.
Aaron: Holy Spirit that I'm just thinking through all my writing.
I'm just thinking through that grid. How do we get, how do I get people to that place because that's transformational.
Chase: Yeah.
Aaron: So.
Chase: No, you can tell you now that having this conversation after lifting, after listening to dozens of, of your sermons, you can tell you put that thought and that work into, and it's almost like I wanted to ask you, like is in your rubric like, I need to create empathy or I need to, 'cause there is, I think [00:29:00] at the beginning of most of your messages.
There is a few words that you would wanna speak if there was a non-believer like that, you would have to tell them, Hey, we're talking about you need to know, and I get that there's some, some, some walls up for this. Let's just acknowledge that, let's say this. Or because you do address cultural topics in such a loving way, but you do it there, you do have to answer that.
Why are we even talking about this in church? Well, because everyone else is talking about it. So
we. We should talk about it as well. But it's not so much of a checklist for you to make a good sermon. You're actually just loving your people. Well, it's almost like you know, God's word for us. It leads to joy, it leads to salvation, it leads to purpose.
And you're basically like I, I said this in our last interview. I'm just a little while ago where I, I would speak to my older daughter, different than my middle daughter, different than my youngest daughter. But I have all of them in mind and I want them to hear this truth 'cause it's gonna make their life better.
It's basically like you're, you're [00:30:00] intentionally putting in the, the time and envisioning people that you wanna love well, and you want them to have the, the words of life, which is
Aaron: Absolutely.
Chase: Yeah,
Aaron: Absolutely. And I even think like thinking through, you know, like, you know. If there's something that we gotta talk about that I know is gonna be somewhat challenging, and it's a non-essential to the faith, like even saying to people, Hey, if you're here and you don't buy any of this, let's just say you're, you're really into a girl who's a Christian and you came with her and you're just here to make her happy, whatever.
I just want you to know, man, I'm so glad you're here and I want you to keep coming back, but honestly, you get to audit today's talk. Just, just audit it. Like you're not gonna be graded on this. And now I think there's a lot of wisdom here for you. Like I want you to know Jesus. But, but I think where a lot of people get turned off by preaching and why preaching has kind of turned into, you know, the butt of jokes or whatever people wanna say about it, is whenever we start to like, expect non-Christians to act like Christians. [00:31:00] I think we gotta draw that distinction first and that, now I do think we call them to repentance, call them to salvation, get them to Jesus. But when it comes maybe to like some cultural behavioral stuff to kind of act, you know, in many ways, like anytime I preach on sexuality, I'm always like talking to the non-Christian saying, Hey, you actually get a pass on this audit.
This people that are gonna be the most uncomfortable are Christians
Chase: Yeah.
Aaron: and, and be hard on them and be somewhat easy on, you know, the
Chase: Where does that, that care, that concern that intentionality to speaking to those that don't yet know Jesus. Where does that come from? Did, did you grow up in a tradition like that? The, the, the two men that you talked about in Bible college? Was that in the front of their minds? Did that, did
Aaron: Hmm.
Chase: grow in your heart as you took over traitor point?
I don't know if you started traitor point or took it over or where did, where do you think
Aaron: No.
Chase: that in you?
Aaron: That's a good question. You know, I mean, in some ways, you know, I think that on one hand, like I mentioned, my dad was a little bit of a [00:32:00] disenfranchised preacher's kid, so he was, he pretty much kinda like when we were growing up went to church 'cause my mom wanted to. And so my, one of my big memories is on the way home, hearing my dad make fun of the sermon.
And, and so, you know, I kind of thought that was normal. I, I didn't really know. I mean, from a really early age, I can remember him like mimicking the preacher, making fun of it, that sort of a thing. And I think that was just him kind of, you know, trying to work through some of the hurt and pain in his own heart.
But it taught me how to, there is an element of that in my head. Like, like when I'm preparing and when I'm preaching, I'm going, oh man, all the men that are out here that are kind of like my dad, I. He would shred that. So I, I better make an adjustment here, or I better at least acknowledge. The difficulty that somebody might have with that point or whatever.
So there's that. The other thing might be, I think, you know just being friends with some [00:33:00] non-Christian guys and you know I, I've got experience, I planted a church in Northern California. Back in 2003. And so we were just around a lot of non-Christians and we were in an environment u it was, it was Davis, California, so uc Davis was there.
So it was a pretty mu it was a very kind of intellectual crowd. And I'm not an intellectual, and so I thought, okay, how do I preach the intellectuals when I'm not an intellectual? And if I try to pretend like I am, they're gonna sniff that out as inauthentic. However, I can just be real. I can be empathetic and speak to where they're at.
And so I think that there was some of that, that kind of got fostered in me. I just have like a big heart for I I, I love this conversation. You've probably had it too, where, oh, a girlfriend, a wife, a mom. Well run up to me at the grocery store and say, pastor Aaron. My husband, my son, my boyfriend, he won't, your church is where he wants to go because he doesn't believe yet.
But man, he likes you. Like he just, he wants to hang out with you. [00:34:00] Like he, you've got a lot of the same similarities and interests, like when, when you speak, he listens. And so I, I love that conversation. And for all kinds of different reasons. And so I do think that just having that real heart for somebody who's maybe a little bit hardened and skeptical who's not yet there, how would I talk to them in such a way where they would at least listen and not shut me down?
Chase: Where do you think, where have you begin to get more comfortable speaking into certain cultural issues like. 'cause you hit the gamut. I mean, you know, you, Josh Howerton Hass been doing it a lot recently and the years past, and you have preachers that only speak to cultural issues Right then. Yeah.
Then you have pastors. That Bible doesn't say it. I don't want to preach to it, you know? Have you grown in your comfort in speaking about it, but also if you have, if you find yourself speaking about it more, do you think there's a greater need for pastors in today's culture? To do the hard work and [00:35:00] maybe step out of their comfort zone.
Not for political reasons, not because, because, but because the gospel's beautiful and it kind of shines bright in these areas. Like have you, have you grown in that? Where do you think the line is? How often
Aaron: Yeah.
Chase: into cultural issues? How, how not? Is it more of a
Aaron: Yeah.
Chase: like, this is just coming up in our church and I need to address it?
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah, to answer like the first question, I think I've grown more comfortable doing it. I do think there's a little bit of an element of me where when I'm on the platform upfront preaching, I. I'm more willing to actually be much more bold in that setting than I would be one-on-one with people.
That's probably true for a lot of preachers, but it's like the prophet comes out in me. I would always say that the prophet comes out in me on Sunday morning. The pastor comes out on me when I'm on the couch watching the football game that afternoon, and I'm like, oh man, what did I do? Did I hurt people's feelings?
You know? And and so there's always been that element in me. I will say, I've talked to Kyle Idleman about this as well, [00:36:00] and we both, and there's been other pastors that I've talked to where we would agree with this. I remember the first time I preached, I. Very directly on L-G-B-T-Q. And I think it was 2018 and we were in a series called Asking for a Friend, and I didn't announce it to the, it was actually what I did was I turned the top five questions that the church turned into me that they wanted to hear address.
And that was one of 'em. And I did not tell the church that I was gonna be covering that, and I just sort of sprung it on him morning of, and I was so nervous to preach that sermon. I. Just because of just, just not knowing. And it was, I mean, you listen to the sermon. I think at one point in that message, I tell everybody to breathe.
'cause nobody seemed like they were breathing and it was so nerve wracking. Well and it was a very well received message. I preached on same topic, I think last year. I wasn't nervous. Church, church is [00:37:00] fine. I do think that it's, it's getting a little easier to speak on some of those topics because.
Like the sexual revolution ideology. I think culture is beginning to see that it's failing, it's collapsing, and you can point to tons of articles that show that. I think that even, you know, even around like some L-G-B-T-Q issues, even with some of younger generations, they're starting to ask a little bit of questions around some of that, like the.
Like, is this, how far are we gonna take this kind of a thing? And is it really leading to the fulfillment that we want? And shaming, oftentimes that comes from culture. If you have a different view or even just real laziness, just calling people, just throwing out the, you know, well, you have a phobia towards this just because you disagree.
So I think that culture's beginning to see some of that kind of collapse on, on itself. So it's making it a little bit easier to preach. I think, you know, and, and you mentioned Josh, I think Josh does this so well. He and I have had lots and lots of conversations around it where it's like, if, if the church doesn't address these things, [00:38:00] it's, it's, it's like a, it's like it's, it's deafening because you hear it everywhere else in culture and all I have to say to our church.
Hey, the reason why we're talking about this is because we're talking about it everywhere else, and they know it. And so if the church stays silent, then then culture will disciple you. And so we've gotta speak into these issues, but we can do so directly boldly lovingly clearly. And and let me try to give you some handles around how you can think about it and how you can talk to your coworkers, family members, neighbors, friends, in a way that's not so polarizing without compromising.
Your faith. And I think our people are just so grateful to have that. And so I think when pastors stay silent on it, we're actually doing a disservice to our people. 'cause this is part of discipleship. Discipleship isn't just what you know, it's how you live out, what you know. And these are front and center topics in our world.
And so we've gotta lead the way in helping our people know how to think about it. And if we don't, [00:39:00] we'll lose our churches. Because, because culture will disciple them and disciple them right out of the church or right into, you know, right outta their relationship with God.
Chase: What's some of the fruit that you've seen after, you know, after. Going, doing that first hard sermon in 2018, what's some of the fruit that you've seen over the past five or six years from making your congregation more comfortable or just talking about cultural issues, again, in a loving way and appropriate way.
Not all the time, but to shepherd your people. What's some of the fruit that you've seen?
Aaron: Gratitude people are just very grateful. Like, hey, thank you for your courage and your willingness to, to tackle that and to address it. Thank you for the loving way you did it. I hear specifically on that issue, you know L-G-B-T-Q heard from a number of same sex attracted people that either go to our church or were in the crowd or heard it or heard it online.
That reached out to me one, one young man in particular. After I preached that message in 2018, he reached out to me. He said, I had [00:40:00] no idea you were speaking on that subject that day. And he said, it's the only time I felt seen by a pastor in my life. thought, wow. You know, I didn't tell him it was okay.
You know, I called it a sin. But he felt seen by me and I thought, man, there's something to that. And so I would say that ironically, the people that are the most irate or. Displeased. Were not people who were gay, but it was, it was Christians interesting. Or people who call themselves Christians who had gay family members.
And they were like, I don't know how to reconcile this. 'cause in my mind it's like I either have to like, accept them and affirm them. I can't tell them it's a sin and still love them. And so they're, they're in that kind of divide. There. So that's same thing whenever I preach on, you know, sexual ethics.
As most of the time when I get emails from, after a, a sermon like that, I'll get emails from people that are non-Christians who are kind of checking out, checking out faith, who will say, man, that makes so [00:41:00] much sense. Thank you for that. You know what, me and my boyfriend are gonna stop sleeping together, but then I'll get emails from nominal Christians who are like, I'm so, I can't believe you judge me that way.
So it kind of, it's,
Chase: Yeah.
Aaron: it, They clarify some things and,
Chase: Yeah.
Aaron: so yeah, that's, that's been most, that's been
Chase: Did you, did you. Did you hold off? So like we did asking for a friend after you guys did asking for a friend. We did different, different questions and stuff. Strangely, some of those issues that you tackled weren't the ones that people sent in. I'm not sure if it's because we've done a good job of teaching in the past.
You know, we've had Alberry, Sam Alberry and stuff come. But I felt hesitant and I, now, I'm not, I have not preached on, on gender issues. Part of it was because, you know, I read the literature, I read the Theology of the Body, you know, there's the, there's the Ethiopian eunuch, there's all that sort of stuff.
But I was just not [00:42:00] at a point where I felt confident to get on a sta on a stage and say, thus says the Lord. Now, it's when I started seeing, I'm on Reddit a lot and there's, there's a subreddit dedicated to people who have transitioned and then they're det transitioning and there's a regret and it's just eye-opening, reading their testimonies and stuff.
These are people that don't know Jesus, but feel let down by both communities and stuff. I almost encourage pastors if you're not, if you're not confident and don't feel it in your heart, that you can say this in a loving way. Then maybe hold off on speaking is, is there wisdom in that? Is there a reason you didn't speak on this in 2018 and you just did in, you know, 2023?
Aaron: Yeah, I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. I mean, I think you definitely need to, you know, be well prepared. And then there's the. Study side of it, but then there's the posture side of it. I would say some of it was, I don't know that it wa I, we knew enough about it in 2018. I mean, this has accelerated so fast.[00:43:00]
And so I think you've got some people like Nancy Pearcy. I mean, I leaned heavily into Nancy Pearcy, and her expertise on this you know, press and sprinkle, got some stuff on it that was helpful. And so just recognizing how fast things have accelerated. I also think, you know, I was on the board of a church planning organization who's retired president, who is still on the board transitioned.
And we had to walk through all that and so I kind of had like a front row seat to that. And unfortunately he. Just left our sort of movement and started preaching at another church as a transgender woman. And so I watched a number of his sermons and just his, how he's sort of pretzeled the, the teaching of scripture to try to fit that.
And then just trying to listen to all that. And very clearly I remember him, he, he's sort of on a, [00:44:00] he has an agenda to try to convince. Christians that it's okay. And I thought, you know what? He's, he's, he's so forward in that. We've got to it. We've gotta speak to it. And so I think there was a number of things in
that where it kind of pushed me over the edge to say, I think we need to talk about it.
And we know that it's a, it's an issue. You know, I talked to our student ministry and it's just like, Hey, how big of an issue is this? And I would say students were some of the most responsive to that message. They're like, thank you so much for addressing this. Like it's talked about and we are confronted with it every day in our school.
So the fact that you talked about it and the way you talked about it, like we're pointing it to our friends and it was, it was so helpful. And so I think you just gotta be perceptive. You gotta be a student of culture. And figure out, okay, what's going on and what needs to be talked about. And, and I do think that just as you can maybe talk, talk about some things too much or maybe from the wrong motivation, you stay silent on some things [00:45:00] at times I think your people are kind of scratching their head going, how come this is never talked about?
Like, we don't know how to think through this as believers,
Chase: Yeah.
Aaron: world like this.
Chase: No, that's good. I've learned a lot. It sounds to me, I'm gonna ask you like, what are some of your main goals in preaching when you get up on stage? Or what's some advice that you would give to, to young preachers, but what I see in your preaching and from talking about you it's a very people-centered approach.
We just interviewed Nancy Arrington, who. It talks about in his book the who really matters, like who you're preaching to really determines what is said. And he talked about sometimes we make ourselves an idol, like we preach sermons that we would be proud of instead of trying to get this, this life, this, this hope, this joy into the people that we're trying to preach.
And so if I were to describe your preaching man, it really is. It is, it's shepherding, it's loving. And you think through the people, the [00:46:00] lens of the people that you're trying to, to speak to in the way that you prepare sermons, in the way that you give them. But do you have any other goals? Do you how do you see preaching as a whole?
And then what advice would you give to young and up and coming preachers?
Aaron: I mean, you know, I think one of the things I'm thinking through, I think Andy Stanley always said it, he goes, it's not just what you say but how you say it. And so I think really figuring out, how am I gonna say something? I think I just spoke for a college chapel this past Tuesday, and it was rainy and cold.
And I'm looking at all the students coming in and they're all wearing their coats and their hats, and they're all just kinda sitting down, just kind of, and I'm thinking, okay, I gotta get up there. And. Bring the thunder, like I've gotta, like right from the get go, I've gotta grab their
attention. And so, yeah.
And so it's like, it's almost like this, what I would call a sense of urgency without being frantic. So it's like there's this like
Chase: Oh, okay.
Aaron: I. Like the, [00:47:00] like what I've got to say is so important that it's like burning a hole in my soul. Like, it's like you're just reaching out and grab. Sometimes I get really frustrated with preachers whose cadence is too slow, or it's like, bro, spit it out.
Like get it out. Like, or you're taking way too long on this illustration or this story, or you're circling this thing. And it's not that there isn't a time to be contemplative, and especially if that's just like your wiring and that's your voice, then that's fine. And, and, and, and I think you gotta vary the speeds.
You know, I always tell, I will offer a word of caution here. I'm not talking about redlining the tack right out of the get go. 'cause sometimes, you know, I, I've, I've seen this with preachers, they'll come out and they'll start at 8,000 RPMs. Then you got nowhere to shift. Like you're just like way up here high on the attack.
So figuring that out. But I, but I do think that it's like just this sense of urgency, like what we have to [00:48:00] say right now really matters. And I need you to know that it matters. I can feel it burning in my bones. Oftentimes, like I'll joke around with our worship team. Our worship team will be like, man.
I don't know where our people are today, but they're, they're checked out and I'm like, well, let's not let that affect us. We're gonna affect them. They're not gonna affect us. You know, it's like we're going to, you know, bring them into that moment. So there's, there's that. I would say man, economy of words, that's just a phrase we use a lot.
Watch your economy of words, so. And this is one of the things, it's kind of like in maybe lifting weights or CrossFit or whatever, when you first start, your gains go way up in the first few days. And I would even say for young preachers, this is one of the fastest ways to start making gains in preaching is just watch your economy of words.
So say it simpler. Don't spend so much time over explaining. I think it was I dunno if you recognize the name Fred Cradock, but he was one of my early preaching influences. He said, preaching is like playing tennis. You don't need to hit [00:49:00] the ball over the net and then run around and hit it back for the people.
He goes, just hit the ball over the net and trust the, they'll hit it back. And I think, so, I think sometimes we don't need to watch the usage of throwaway words. One of my, one of my pet peeves is like, when we end a sentence with the word, right. So it's like, you know you know, God is good. Right. You know, it's like, right.
Right. And that, that is such a throwaway word. It's like, I, I counted one time, one of my, one of my campus pastors was doing a talk. I literally sat there and counted 86 times he said the word right. And I just go, bro, you will take your preaching from here to here if you could just eliminate the word.
Right. And you know what, it pops up in all of us. I, my 14-year-old daughter, two years ago, she was in the habit of saying, like, in all of her sentences, like she would just say like, all the time, and I'm hanging out with her spending all this time, it started to seep into my [00:50:00] preaching. To the point that somebody in like a YouTube comment said Aaron says, like, too much.
And I thought, that's the influence of my teenage daughter. And so I, I've gotta just eliminate that, that word. So economy of words. Um, and then, I think just figuring out the fact that you need people will feel a great sense of. I don't know if this is true for you. I have so many people that come up to me and just say, thank you.
It is so clear you prepare. That's such a weird comment to me. But the only thing that I can think of is maybe they've been around in a lot of churches and preachers, they, they could tell there was no preparation here. And so I think that people feel a great sense of gratitude when you took them somewhere.
So it's like you got 'em on the plane, you got up to 30,000 feet, you landed in a destination, you got 'em off the plane safely, and they were like, Hey, I actually. was worth my time. 'cause you were well prepared and you actually took me somewhere. So those are [00:51:00] maybe just a few things that are off the top of my mind that I think can improve our preaching.
Chase: That's great. Well, thank you so much for hanging out with us, Aaron. We appreciate it. I'd encourage everyone listening to check out his sermons. You can find him on YouTube, you can find him on Trader trader Points Community Church website. man, I appreciate it.
Aaron: Absolutely, man. It was a great conversation. It's fun to have.