Lion Counseling Podcast

🎙️ Why Therapy Fails So Many Men | Lion Counseling Podcast #70

The therapeutic mindset has become one of the dominant forces in modern culture.
We're told to process our feelings.
We're told to heal our inner child.
We're told to prioritize self-care.

But according to some critics, the result isn't a healthier society—it's a more anxious, fragile, and divided one.

In this episode, Mark Odland and Zack Carter react to a viral conversation between Megyn Kelly and therapist Jonathan Alpert about the state of modern therapy. As therapists themselves, they explore where the criticism is justified, where it misses the mark, and what high-achieving men need to know before stepping into a counseling office.

They discuss:
✅ Is therapy creating victim mentality?
✅ Why everyone suddenly seems to be a “narcissist”
✅ The dangers of over-diagnosis and self-diagnosis
✅ Validation vs. accountability in counseling
✅ Why resilience still matters
✅ CBT, EMDR, and coaching—when each is most effective
✅ How good therapy differs from bad therapy
✅ What high-performing men should look for in a counselor

Mark and Zack argue that while some therapy can reinforce avoidance and fragility, great therapy helps people confront reality, heal deeply, build resilience, and move forward with courage.

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Creators and Guests

Host
Mark Odland
Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist
Host
Zack Carter
Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Mark Odland:

Welcome to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Odland, licensed marriage and family therapist and certified EMDR therapist. And I'm joined by Zack Carter, counselor and coach. The therapeutic mindset has become one of the dominant forces in American culture. We're told to process our feelings.

Mark Odland:

We're told to heal our inner child. We're told to prioritize self care. And according to some critics, the result isn't a healthier society. It's actually a more anxious one, a more fragile one, a more depressed one. Now, as therapists, counselors, Zack and I obviously have a vested interest in this conversation.

Mark Odland:

But that doesn't mean the critics are all wrong. In fact, some of the criticism is aimed at problems we've also observed ourselves. Bad therapy, exists. It's a thing. Victim mentality exists, and therapists can reinforce avoidance instead of courage.

Mark Odland:

But good therapy exists as well. And if you can't distinguish between the two, you can end up rejecting something that could genuinely change your life. And so today, we're reacting to a video that argues that therapy is making people worse. We'll tell you where they get it right, where they get it wrong, and what every high achieving man needs to know before he ever sits down on a therapist couch. Let's get into it.

Mark Odland:

Alright, Zach, you got a clip for me here.

Zack Carter:

Yes sir. Yeah so yeah I came across this clip where Megan Kelly is interviewing a therapist and the guy's name is Jonathan Albert And I thought it would be an interesting clip to bring to our viewers today to just see what people are saying about some criticism about therapy and then get your thoughts and I'll share a few of mine. So let me pull this up.

Megyn Kelly:

Used to be in the country, stiff upper lip, you're fine. You're fine. And then we kind of realized, well, that doesn't work for everybody. Some people actually do need to talk about their problems. And we had more psychotherapists pop up and more counseling pop up and people started to use them.

Megyn Kelly:

And how do we get from that to everyone is overly therapized and has got their prescriptions for their boundaries, their me time, their safe spaces, to where you can't even talk to some of these young people because they're so obsessed with their latest disorder or how something you've done has crossed some imaginary line that they've created in order to foster their own happiness.

Jonathan Alpert:

Well and you're

Zack Carter:

Okay. So so far, what do you think about Meg and Kelly set up for her therapy?

Mark Odland:

Well, I mean I mean, to her credit, she briefly acknowledged that the other extreme wasn't great either. Right? Mhmm. Stiff upper lip, pretend like nothing there are no problems. Suppress your feelings, swallow them.

Mark Odland:

As we know, that can come out sideways and really mess with people, wreck people's lives, wreck their relationships, lead to addictions, all sorts of stuff. But she's got a point. Right? It's flipped so far the other direction that it's not always helpful. Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

It can be a kind of coddling. It can be a kind of I don't know. Just in the over diagnosis. Right? I mean, people are going through legitimate things, and they deserve to have a accurate understanding of what they're going through.

Mark Odland:

But, it does seem like people can be overly diagnosed and then kind of embrace that as part of their identity in an unhealthy way. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons I know we appreciate, a lot of the guys we work with come are welcoming kind of a faith based perspective, and they're looking at the sense of, like, my identity is connected to my family, my meaning and purpose, and ultimately my creator and not this label that's put on me. Right? So some people, it can be helpful. For others, it can be like, I don't know.

Mark Odland:

It it's not always helpful. So I think they're onto something. I mean, I know that's just the teaser at the beginning, but I don't know if you have any additional thoughts, Zach.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. And with the over diagnosis, oftentimes I find my clients don't really need a diagnosis. Maybe they need it logistically for insurance. But a lot of times it's like, I'm having a problem and I just need to talk to somebody about it. And as therapists, we're required to do diagnoses oftentimes.

Zack Carter:

Unfortunately, here at Lion, we aren't required. We're not required because everything we do is out of pocket, pay out

Mark Odland:

of pocket.

Zack Carter:

Sometimes I find clients, I have one client in particular in mind where the diagnosis was actually very important because all his providers were arguing, is it bipolar? Is it ADHD? So we went back and forth. And honestly we had looked at it like bipolar for a while and then we switched to ADHD. It felt like we started actually making more progress.

Zack Carter:

So it's not that once again, this all all these things are nuanced. Right. It's like we do wanna be careful about over pathologizing, but at the same time, we don't wanna get rid of diagnoses altogether either. Right. Yeah.

Mark Odland:

Exactly. Yeah. Let's keep it going.

Zack Carter:

Okay, cool.

Megyn Kelly:

Line that they've created in order to foster their own happiness.

Jonathan Alpert:

Well, you're spot on with that. Everything's a disorder. We have therapists that are pathologizing everything had a bad day at work well you must have a toxic work environment your boss is a jerk well he must be a narcissist if he's if he's demanding or your boyfriend's not acting the way that you want him to. Well, he must be a narcissist as well. So we have therapists.

Megyn Kelly:

Every one of my friends who has an ex boyfriend thinks he's a narcissist. Like, it's very funny. It's a common theme.

Jonathan Alpert:

Well, and it's an overdone theme. And my profession is to blame for that. We have therapists who are using these clinical terms so loosely and then it's migrated and found its way into social media. So we have, you name it, your favorite influencers out there just spewing absolute nonsense and labeling everyone as ADHD or toxic or narcissist or bipolar or borderline. So it's a huge problem in our society.

Jonathan Alpert:

I have patients that come in to see me for the first time and they say, I think I'm bipolar or I think my girlfriend is borderline. And I said, well, why do you think that? Well, my influencer that I follow, said that in K. Any thoughts?

Mark Odland:

Well, I don't know, Zach. I'm in a tough situation here because you are a counselor and an influencer. So You as well. Point his point is well taken. I mean, I think we because we do this every day, we see trends.

Mark Odland:

It it it just like things go viral and trend on social media, things tend to trend in the mental health world. And there are a lot of armchair counselors out there, right, who they've diagnosed their boyfriend, their girlfriend, themselves. And I think the thing that's a little disturbing is there's far more ideology going on than anyone would like to admit. Right? And so the truth is a lot of, a lot of people just will take personality traits that they don't like or maybe being held accountable or maybe being, you know, basic basic things, about relationships and take the thing I don't like, attach a diagnosis to it.

Mark Odland:

Now I don't have to deal with that person. Now I don't have to consider their point of view. Right? It's much more, difficult to say after, say, a breakup, you know, here are traits that were hard for me to deal with. I'm guessing they're probably things that are hard to hard for them to deal with with me.

Mark Odland:

Here's how we cocreated this situation. I mean, sometimes it's more clear cut. Someone's, more obviously, causing problems in a relationship, but I I just think that, it's kinda like the book, The Comfort Crisis. Right? This idea that we're just we we're wired to avoid pain and seek pleasure, and there's something about that immediate gratification of being able to feel good right now and not face the hard things either physically or intellectually or emotionally.

Mark Odland:

And I think a lot of people are taking the easy way out, honestly. And that's why I enjoy going to work every day because we tend to attract the kinds of clients who are like, yeah. I don't have it all together, but I've got the guts I've got the guts to, like, take a look at this stuff and and face it and and do the work and to embrace nuance, and not just settle for labels either for other people or themselves. Themselves. Right?

Mark Odland:

So so yeah. Yeah. Any any other thoughts on your side, Zach?

Zack Carter:

Yeah. And I you and I did a video around emotional abuse and narcissism. And it's so funny that you and I were seeing that with guys that we're talking with that they're like, yeah, my girlfriend thinks I'm a narcissist. She thinks I'm emotionally abusive. And then when we get to talking about it, you and I aren't there.

Zack Carter:

They could be leaving out details. We could be missing things if we bring in the other person. They may fill in some gaps that you and I aren't aware of. But oftentimes it's super interesting as some of the guys that I've had as they lay out the stories. I'm like, a lot of this sounds like projection.

Zack Carter:

Like, the girlfriend is actually kind of narcissistic and kind of emotionally abusive and all these things. And then if a boyfriend disagrees, it's like, well, you're these things. So it's really interesting that she says, yeah, a lot of the girlfriends. So it's like, yes, it might be on the counselors, but I wonder how much of it is also more of the TikTok and YouTube and influencers affecting the language that's

Mark Odland:

being That's true. And I think it's tough because you get this steady diet of influencer pseudo mental health, and then you actually come to therapy, and then your therapy your therapist reinforces it. And and I think the problem with that and, again, I'm not there's a lot of good therapists out there. There are also some bad ones like any profession. Right?

Mark Odland:

And I think the hard thing is too many I know what you think about this, Zach. Here's my hypothesis. The therapy and counseling world attracts people who tend to be more naturally empathetic. They they tend to be, have a natural gift for empathy, for, care, for compassion. And there are lot of beautiful things about that.

Mark Odland:

But it can be very easy as a mental health professional to kind of sink into a mode of operation where it feels like the primary goal of counseling is to make your client feel good. And so that ends up looking like a lot of emotional connection, a lot of trust, a lot of attunement, which is good, but it comes at the expense of truth. It's not a balance. And I think one of the things that we do imperfectly, but we continue to strive to do at Lion is to say, hey. We're gonna create a a space where guys can be real, where they actually can talk about the good, the bad, everything in between.

Mark Odland:

They can process their emotions. They can process their trauma, but they can also pursue truth with us. Right? What is the actual truth in the situation? What is the hard truth that occasionally needs to be spoken?

Mark Odland:

The primary goal is truth and healing even if that's a hard path. The primary goal is not to feel comfortable and validated all the time. And, unfortunately, I think too many in our profession have maybe drifted a little too far in that direction. So that would be a respectful critique.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So kind of the I've heard the term suicidal empathy.

Zack Carter:

It's it's not exactly that, But that's stating that empathy can go wrong if you do too much of it. And like you said, it's so tricky as people who go into it, we tend to be more empathetic. And I can find it difficult at times to say like, am I too biased towards the client? And am I not seeing the full picture of what's going on? It's really hard to sparse through it.

Zack Carter:

A lot of times it is. Well, but what can you do? Like, okay, let's say this person is as terrible as you're saying they are. What options do you have? How can you be a better person?

Zack Carter:

And I think oftentimes that's kind of what you're saying is, like, injecting the truth with the empathy.

Mark Odland:

For sure. Yeah. I think so, Zach. I think and I know one of your expertises is is working with guys helping him with CBT skills and strategies. And one of the most common cognitive distortions is all or nothing thinking and labeling labeling people.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. And so things that might feel good, it's kinda like take a step back. Let's analyze. Is that statement true? Is it really true?

Mark Odland:

How true is it? Right? And you take them through this process where, again, I've said so many times to clients, life is stressful enough. Let's only stress about the things that are actually real and and not the things we're making up in our head and increasing our suffering unnecessarily. Mhmm.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. And it's it's so interesting you bring up all or nothing thinking because I've I've had a thought for a couple years now that I think I don't have data to support this. But just something I've noticed is I think most mental health problems involve all or nothing thinking. Like I think so many mental health problems is the inability to see nuance. Obviously, it's not all mental health issues, but depression is anger against the self.

Zack Carter:

It was all my fault. Well, not exactly. There's other people to blame here. Anxiety, future focus. It's gonna be a catastrophe.

Zack Carter:

Well, that's all or nothing thinking. There might be somewhere in the middle where the situation is gonna fall. Just because your boss is calling you into the office doesn't mean he's gonna fire you. There could be a lot of different things that happen.

Mark Odland:

That's a good point. And I was just waiting for it, Zach. I was hoping you would say all mental health disorders are due to all or nothing thinking. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Odland:

You didn't do it. You didn't do it.

Zack Carter:

I didn't. I I try to be careful with that. That and the shoulds. I stay away from the shoulds as best I can. Yeah.

Zack Carter:

Alright. Let's keep going. Yeah. Rolling.

Jonathan Alpert:

They put out these checklists, five signs that you might be ADHD or five signs that your boyfriend's a narcissist. So, again, this starts in my profession. I have colleagues that are putting this nonsense out there.

Megyn Kelly:

How do you it's funny because I've told the audience many times that I I've had the same therapist for fourteen fifteen years now. Fifteen years. And but I so I'm like, why does that work for me? The truth is we don't really do therapy. He's more like a life coach.

Megyn Kelly:

You know, he more gives me helpful tips for how to think about things in a different way. He never asks me questions about my childhood or my mother. You know, it's not like that. It's like, he's very practical and he likes cognitive behavioral therapy where you're really just giving somebody a tool for different ways of looking at things. For me, that's been very effective.

Megyn Kelly:

But oftentimes it is more of a blame session with these therapists who wanna throw your parents. Like, I have a dear friend who's been through multiple therapists. And like, if I had a nickel for each one that tried to alienate her from her mother, and she loves her mother, she actually didn't seem to have a bunch of problems with her mother until the therapist started to create some.

Jonathan Alpert:

Yeah. Exactly. And, Megan, it sounds like you've got a great therapist, and there should be more therapists like that. But so many people have come to me, and they've talked about their previous therapy and how they just sat there and talked about their potty training days for for years and years. If you think about the time commitment, you're going in weekly and spending a fortune on this, it's a complete utter waste of time.

Jonathan Alpert:

And I think we don't need to look too much further than Woody Allen. He's the poster boy for lifelong old school psychoanalysis. It simply does not work.

Mark Odland:

Wow. That was tough for me to hear because I focus exclusively on the potty ears.

Zack Carter:

Oh, no. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Yeah. I was it's funny because I was like, you know, you just mentioned that I I do CBT, and so they're like, CBT is the best.

Zack Carter:

Well But you practice EMDR, so that's interesting.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. Well, I know. I know. But I just wanted to ask you, how does it feel for Megan Kelly to give you a shout out like that being her counselor for fourteen years?

Zack Carter:

I can't talk about it. That's confidential.

Mark Odland:

Oh, man. That's yeah. I mean, that does does raise a point that here here's how I put it. There are a lot of therapists who aren't trained in legit research proven trauma therapy like EMDR who try to dabble in the past too much, and it can go their bet it can go the it can go off the rails. Right?

Mark Odland:

It can go in this wrong direction where they're just wallowing in, you know, this kind of victim mentality and, like like Megan said, like, kinda stirring up problems where there aren't any. But that's very different than legitimate trauma. Legitimate trauma that, is causing problems in the way the nervous nervous system responds to certain emotions, certain situations, especially in the form of, full blown PTSD. I mean, that's the most obvious situation. But, yeah, I I would say that for for real real trauma, therapy that's research proven in that area like EMDR can be really good and is very necessary in a lot of cases.

Mark Odland:

But then there are other cases where a more present, future focused, more CBT or more coaching strategy actually can be really helpful and empowering for people. And at Lyon, we do a lot of therapy counseling and coaching and leadership development. And, sometimes the lines between leadership development and and, business, coaching and these things, you know, that's a place where we work with guys who actually are open to those lines overlapping in in a, of course, an ethical and a healthy way. But but, yeah, that's that's my two cents. Don't don't drag up the pass for no good reason just to wallow in and blame people and stay stuck, but go there if you truly need to heal with the right person.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. Yeah. And I like that you said that because one of my thoughts was the opposite of what Megyn Kelly said, that you have a person who is taking all the blame on themselves for things that their parents are responsible for. It's like that might be a situation where we do need to talk about the parents and who's taking the blame over what happened when you were 12 or eight or 16, Like, who was the And now as a therapist, she was saying other therapists were trying to alienate the friend from her mother. That's highly inappropriate if that was happening.

Zack Carter:

Like, it's not the therapist's job to say you really shouldn't hang around her. Yeah. But there is, hey, can we place you take ownership for your stuff and then give them ownership for their stuff? If you want to move forward in the relationship, what does that look like? Do we need to set up boundaries if they're still kind of like, if they're abusive in some way, do we need to, like, separate completely, or does there need to be strong boundaries around stuff?

Zack Carter:

So I don't know the situation with her friend and the mom. And so I I hope the therapist did the right thing, but the way it's presented was sounding like the therapist did the wrong thing.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. In in in an ideal world, we're a trusted guide on the journey. Right? People have to have autonomy for their own decisions in life, especially the big ones, like relationships. And so we can help people weigh the pros and cons, think about setting boundaries if they're appropriate, how might they do that.

Mark Odland:

But at the end of the day, we make it clear that it's their choice. And And if the therapist pushes too hard, gets a little yeah. I think it's a little like some lines might be being crossed.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. Well, and it's just like anyone else. So like therapy isn't about a ton of advice. Maybe there's some advice mingled It's about processing. There is some guidance, but ultimately, like you said, it's make your own decision.

Zack Carter:

So I've had clients where they've had difficulty knowing, should I stay in this relationship? Should I relationship damaging me? Is it damaging the other person? And I avoid, yeah, you should break up with them. I really avoid that because I don't have to deal with the consequences.

Zack Carter:

I don't have to deal with the loneliness. Don't have to deal with the sadness. I don't have to deal with whatever backlash there is. So it's very easy to give, oh yeah, just break up with them. That's very easy for me to say not being in the situation.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. I had a wise supervisor once who said, for most of your clients, you're meeting with them for one hour a week. Think about how many hours are in a day, how many hours are in a week.

Mark Odland:

What a small fraction of time that, you know, that hour is. And and because of that, as therapists, we have to understand that we can't be over responsible for a client, for their, you know, their well-being. We're gonna be a guide and do our we're gonna work our butt off to help them. But at the end of the day, it's their life. Right?

Zack Carter:

Yeah.

Mark Odland:

And so we can take a small sliver of credit for their success or failure, but not more than it's more than it's appropriate.

Zack Carter:

Right? Right. Yeah. And I you know, and Jordan Peterson has said similar things around if you tell people what to do, they do it. And then something good happens.

Zack Carter:

Who gets the credit? Well, you get the credit because you told them what to do. But if you help them to think through it, they come up with a solution. They act on the solution. Who gets the credit?

Zack Carter:

They get the credit. And ultimately, that's what we're trying to be here to do is to like, yes, we're the guide, but we're Obi Wan Kenobi. We're not Luke Skywalker. We're there as the guide. Then Luke goes and saves the rebels from the empire.

Zack Carter:

Well,

Mark Odland:

I'm glad you brought up Star Wars and not Star Trek, Zack. Because, you know, the market research on that one is we've we've already we've already concluded what that leads to.

Zack Carter:

What what Mark is referring to everyone is that I decided we should do an episode on Star War Star Trek, and it was our worst viewed episode. Alright. Onto the video. Alright, Megan Kelly. Let's see.

Jonathan Alpert:

And the the approach that you mentioned, cognitive behavioral therapy is much more about setting concrete goals and coming up with a plan to to reach them and that's the that's the way that I practice as well That's most effective. That's how you're going to help with anxiety issues, depression, relationship problems, career performance issues, but to sit around and vent with your therapist in the moment it feels good and that's why people go keep going back for more. But if you're not learning practical skills or gaining true insight or or tools, then it's a complete waste of time.

Megyn Kelly:

Yes. Yes. They're doing this to children too. Again, we're speaking with Jonathan Alper, and the book is Therapy Nation, How America Got Hooked on Therapy and Why It's Left Us More Anxious and Divided. More anxious.

Megyn Kelly:

That's they're both addressed, the division as well. But on the anxiety front, the children go through this too. The children show up at school, and now the big thing is for these teachers to make them talk about the worst thing that's ever happened to them. That's what the college essays are supposed to be about. Something terrible that happened to you.

Megyn Kelly:

And just the mere act of spending all your time thinking about that or trying to kick off your day at school, talking about that is not helpful.

Jonathan Alpert:

Yeah. No. It's not helpful at all. And if we're so focused on all the things that are wrong with ourselves or society, how are we possibly gonna move forward? When I work with people, I want them to tap into their strengths and what they're good at, not sit there and talk to me endlessly about all the things that are problematic in their life.

Jonathan Alpert:

Let's talk about what's good and how to build on that. But you're right, we see it in schools. After the most recent election of Donald Trump, Georgetown University held emergency sessions to help their students cope with the loss. And I have to wonder if Kamala Harris had won, would we have seen those same faculty and therapists providing help mental health help for the for students? I highly doubt it.

Megyn Kelly:

Oh yeah.

Jonathan Alpert:

But academia is a is a huge huge problem in our in my profession. I mean we have Columbia University that teaches their grad students a model of well you're either oppressed or you're the oppressor. I'm sorry that just does not work. You're creating a monster when you do that. If you're training a therapist to look at every patient as either oppressed or or the oppressor, that's not gonna move our society to a healthier place.

Megyn Kelly:

I mean, I think I'm pretty sure this is years ago when I was on Fox, but I think it was Columbia Law School too that canceled exams. If you were upset over, was it the Ferguson riot? Whatever they like, you have upset, you don't have to take exams because you're too upset. Uh-huh. Which, of course, is not how real life works.

Megyn Kelly:

When you're an actual lawyer, you actually have to go into court and argue no matter what's happening in the news, no matter what's happening in your private life. And certainly, if if you cannot function in the face of being upset, you're not gonna make a very good lawyer. It's a very contentious profession. Like, you actually do need to learn how to function under duress and when things are on fire around you. But this that little microcosm could be expanded to our our society right now with parents creating the safe spaces, then the academic environments create the safe spaces, and then they get out into the world and they think the safe spaces are an entitlement.

Jonathan Alpert:

Yeah. No. We have an accommodation culture that's running rampant. We have therapists who are writing notes for everything, had a bad day. Well, you need extra time on your task, on your exam at school.

Jonathan Alpert:

Therapists are accommodating and you can even extend this into, you know other issues where therapists will just validate everything if a young boy thinks he might be a girl or vice versa they'll just validate and affirm that and we've all seen the dangerous path that that can go down. So it's time that therapists tap the brakes on all this and start to teach resilience and not just cater to every every weakness or fragile aspect that they think their patient has.

Megyn Kelly:

Yes. Yes. Yes. This is like I just feel like parents have totally misunderstood their job in some ways because when your kid is home from zero to 18 or whenever they're going off to leave you, that's your opportunity when they have problems to work with them so that they can learn how to solve them. You're in the backup supportive role so that they can learn that skill as opposed to a chance for you to exercise your super savvy problem solving skills for them.

Megyn Kelly:

It's like, at some point, they're not gonna live with you. At some point, they need to do it on their own. Wouldn't you rather they practice while still with you, while you can be of help if it falls apart or while they might want some input, but not somebody else to do it. It's just you can I can see lots of people doing this? They totally misunderstand it, and it's to their child's detriment.

Megyn Kelly:

It's actually sad.

Zack Carter:

Alright. Last thoughts. There's a lot there. There was a lot there.

Mark Odland:

Man, I was just thinking about that that guy talking to Meg Kelly. I'm like, man, I hope that guy keeps his license. He's getting a little political, but, hard not to. Hard not to these days. Right?

Mark Odland:

I think I think it's one of those things where his point is well taken that it is not our job to coddle, to cater, to validate everything. Right? And, it doesn't lead to empowerment. Just practically, just how things actually work, in counseling and therapy. No matter what someone thinks about in an academic institution or thinks about philosophically or politically, where the rubber meets the road in our office, we have to tell people that they may have been wounded, but that is not who they are.

Mark Odland:

Right? That they are capable, that they can build resiliency. And in fact, they probably have a lot more resiliency than they think they do because they're still kicking. Right? They're still kicking.

Mark Odland:

They're getting some help and that there are solutions for things. Right? They can train their brain through cognitive behavioral therapy to control their emotions instead of instead of letting their emotions control them and hold them hostage. And and, and they can get deep healing through EMDR therapy so that their past doesn't haunt them, and they don't have to do this song and dance to avoid every difficult thing because it reminds them of their trauma, real trauma. Right?

Mark Odland:

So, yeah, I think I think it's about I mean, I think about our mission at Lion Counseling. Right? It's, to to break free, to heal deep, and to become the lions god created us to be. Right? And there's a sense that by god's grace, he already sees the best in us, that he loves us, he forgives us, he created us to do great things, and there's a sense that we're always becoming.

Mark Odland:

Right? That it's a work in progress until the day we die. And if we can step forward into the hard things, right, then, instead of retreating, then we got a fighting chance to to be the kind of protectors and providers and and lovers and friends and all the things that we wanna be as guys. Right? So I think that his point is, well, I guess the final thought, Zach, would just be to to to throw out there that, all that being said, and, of course, I'm biased, but I know the work that we do at Lion, and we're not like other counseling agencies.

Mark Odland:

Right? And in particular, we we understand men, in particular, high performing men under pressure. A lot of them, looking for a faith based component. And if if you're out there looking for something like that, you know, Zack and I are are happy to help, to be part of that journey with you. So check us out at escapethecagenow.com if you're interested in that.

Mark Odland:

But, yeah, that's that's what was on my mind. Zack, any closing thoughts on your side?

Zack Carter:

Oh, I had a couple thoughts for sure. Briefly, you know, I love giving people things to work on and giving practical tools. And I think he's mostly right about that. But just to nuance them just a little bit. Sure.

Zack Carter:

One, in the work that you specialize in, there's not a lot of practical stuff given if they're working through past trauma. And so there is a benefit to work through past trauma without a bunch of things to go work on later on. And it's not that you don't give people practical stuff if they need it because you do. But for some guys, that's not what they need when they come to us. It's like, we actually need to process stuff.

Zack Carter:

Last thing was, Carl Rogers taught us that just simply being there and and reflecting what people are saying and showing non judgment can also be very helpful. So I have a lot of guys that have had a lot of shame around their pornography use throughout their life. And just being there and being like, yeah, dude. Like, this is very typical guys. We can get out of it.

Zack Carter:

You're not a monster. And sometimes that's that's also enough for healing to take place.

Mark Odland:

That's a that's a really good word, Zach. And since when did basic and, again, not extreme unbridled compassion and empathy, but just legit, like, guy to guy. Like, hey, man. Like like you said so well, you're not a monster. Like, people need to hear that.

Mark Odland:

That, they're a work in progress, and there's a lot of good. And there can be forgiveness. There can be redemption. There can be transformation. There can be healing.

Mark Odland:

And, man, that's the that's the good stuff right there. So, all that being said, I know, there's more there's more that we could discuss on this, but for the for today, we're gonna have to leave it at that. Again, escapethecagenow.com. Check it out, and, subscribe if you like this content. We got a lot more, things that we discuss around mental health issues as well as long form interviews where we, glean the wisdom and the stories from other leaders, and and and people have amazing stories and and journeys.

Mark Odland:

So all that being said, until next time. Take care.