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Stacey Flaster and Dori Goldman are two ladies obsessed with cults and true crime. Join them as they take us into the depths of some of the most notorious cults, crimes, and killers that the world has ever known. They consume content and ask deep dark questions that only a certified expert can answer... enter Dr. John Mayer. Dr. John is an internationally known Forensic Psychologist and expert on violent behavior and crime prevention, with 35 years of experience consulting to law enforcement and testifying in hundreds of court cases as an expert witness. He is the "Real Deal" and will help Stacey and Dori get to the bottom of of their curious criminal minds.
00:00:00:05 - 00:00:03:04
Stacey
Candy.
00:00:03:06 - 00:00:07:17
Speaker 1
A podcast about cults, crimes and killers.
00:00:07:17 - 00:00:12:15
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:00:12:15 - 00:00:18:19
Stacey
Today we're looking at the case of Keith Hunter Jespersen, better known as the Happy Face Killer.
00:00:18:21 - 00:00:34:01
Dori
Jespersen was a long haul truck driver who murdered at least eight women between 1990 and 1995. He got the nickname because he signed letters to police and media with a hand-drawn smiley face.
00:00:34:01 - 00:00:47:23
Stacey
His first known victim was Tanya Bennett in Oregon. Another couple falsely confessed to her murder, which frustrated Jespersen enough to start writing anonymous confessions, first on bathroom walls, then in letters.
00:00:48:00 - 00:01:00:16
Dori
Those letters revealed specific details only the killer would know. He wanted to take credit and control the narrative. That need for recognition was a major part of his psychology.
00:01:00:18 - 00:01:10:14
Stacey
His job made him hard to trace. He traveled constantly, and many of his victims were women living on the margins, often not identified for years.
00:01:10:16 - 00:01:23:11
Dori
Jespersen was arrested in 1995 after confessing to the murder of his girlfriend. He eventually admitted to several more killings and is serving multiple life sentences.
00:01:23:13 - 00:01:30:08
Stacey
It's a disturbing case, not just because of the violence, but because of how long he operated before being caught.
00:01:30:10 - 00:01:36:00
Dori
It's a case that reminds us how easily violence can hide in plain sight.
00:01:36:16 - 00:01:46:11
Speaker 1
Outside my window. It's only raining.
00:01:46:13 - 00:01:54:01
Speaker 1
When the wind blows in. I feel pain.
00:01:54:03 - 00:01:59:04
Unknown
And I don't need no doctors.
00:01:59:06 - 00:02:19:21
Speaker 1
Maybe I'm not sick. My body's been lined up. I've broken up cells in every.
00:02:23:08 - 00:02:26:23
Speaker 1
May.
00:02:26:23 - 00:03:01:08
Dori
can I just say something? I had the hardest time finding this to watch because. And it isn't this, you know, happy face. Annaleigh Ashford and Dennis Quaid, right? They did, like a draw the times recent version of this. So we kept pulling that one up. I was googling I was like, anyway, for all of those listening, I personally watched it.
00:03:01:10 - 00:03:28:19
Dori
I couldn't find it on Max. I watched it on Prime and I had to technically pay 299, but I had a credit from all of my purchases. Not, I think, you know, very bad to say. I buy a lot on Amazon because I'm trying not to. I'm trying to support local business, but I do buy a lot. So anyway, that's just my first initial thought after that.
00:03:28:21 - 00:03:39:13
Stacey
It was hard for me to find, but I did find it on Amazon Prime, and I believe I had to like, extend my membership right to do something. But it's called the Happy Face Killer,
00:03:39:21 - 00:04:04:18
Stacey
and it's one episode. And it's it's, it's interesting. Wasn't my favorite case that we've explored. But it it definitely he definitely was a scary guy and a guy that really had no, no remorse and was just, you know, when he was confessing to what he did, it was it was kind of depressing.
00:04:04:20 - 00:04:05:17
Stacey
You know.
00:04:05:19 - 00:04:31:08
Dori
I think that this is the type of thing, and I believe I've said this before, that, keeps me away from going back on dating apps because this is like a dude who was he was very large in stature, but kind of unassuming, right? Like he was. Yeah. Like he wasn't like somebody that was, like, doing a lot in his life.
00:04:31:08 - 00:04:58:22
Dori
He was married for years. He had some kids, but he wasn't like, known for like murdering as a younger, as a younger fella. I'll say fella right. Yeah. So yeah. So like those, these are the type of guys like he's in a bar. He meets these women and they thought he must have some sort of magnetism. I mean, two, he was just cute.
00:04:59:00 - 00:05:01:09
Dori
He was cute. Yeah. When?
00:05:01:11 - 00:05:02:09
Stacey
Yeah.
00:05:02:11 - 00:05:07:03
Dori
What does that say about him, Stacey? Huge shelves, huge feet.
00:05:07:05 - 00:05:08:01
Stacey
Huge. Ugly.
00:05:08:03 - 00:05:10:15
Dori
That's how. Maybe he.
00:05:10:17 - 00:05:12:06
Stacey
I hear where you're going with that, but you.
00:05:12:06 - 00:05:19:05
Dori
Know what I'm saying? Like, women were like, salt. This guy must have some sort of.
00:05:19:07 - 00:05:20:08
Stacey
Mojo.
00:05:20:10 - 00:05:21:16
Dori
Of mojo.
00:05:21:18 - 00:05:36:07
Stacey
Well, you know, he said that he would say, well, she wanted to party. So, you know, you know, we we she wanted a party, you know, so we went out and, you know, I told her twice, you know, not to do that. And, the third time, I just strangled her to.
00:05:36:09 - 00:05:39:04
Dori
Like. Yeah, but it's like, you know.
00:05:39:04 - 00:05:48:11
Stacey
She didn't listen twice, so. And the third time I. I killed her, and then he stepped on her neck, and then he threw her. And,
00:05:49:13 - 00:06:02:06
Speaker 2
What happened with him? She guarded him through a scam about going to give her another 40 bucks. And, I said no about three times in the fourth, and I put my hands on the firm.
00:06:02:22 - 00:06:15:18
Speaker 2
Good, hustling, hustling you. She wouldn't take no for an answer. She went back and said, I paid for 40, but, you know, 40 bucks at that. How dare her? After I give her what she wanted to begin with.
00:06:15:23 - 00:06:31:10
Stacey
you know, the thing that was about this case that was also kind of depressing was that they really, even though this guy was confessing to all this stuff and showing them the place where he where he threw the body and all that, it still felt like they couldn't really pin it on him fully.
00:06:31:11 - 00:06:52:22
Stacey
It was really hard for them to gather enough actual evidence to convict this guy. And there also, I think there's five known victims that, 4 or 5. I know he's he's serving four consecutive life sentences. And I asked a lawyer friend about that. And he said, usually each sentence is for each person, each victim or each family.
00:06:52:24 - 00:07:12:15
Stacey
So let's say four people were positively identified, but there's still some that haven't been identified. There's some Jane Doe's out there. And it's that's really sad to me. When there's people out there that haven't been discovered and they don't they can't see they can't recognize the faces. I don't know what that process is.
00:07:12:18 - 00:07:48:03
Dori
And also, like somebody else confessed to the murder. So, like his first one, a woman concocted a story to get her deadbeat boyfriend into prison. So that's a complicated issue as well. But I didn't get the sense. And, and again, like you, I was, I mean, I, I was into it, but I wasn't, like, enthralled, like, I am some of these other cases that I've watched before, but I didn't get the sense that he like, I know he had a father who was very.
00:07:48:03 - 00:08:04:21
Dori
You know, like hard on him, but I didn't get the sense that he was killing early his, in his early years. Like, and I think this is a question for the doctor. Like what clicks and somebody to suddenly start murdering.
00:08:04:23 - 00:08:21:07
Stacey
Because everybody kept saying he's a nice guy. You know, from the, you know, how they, they talk to people who knew him. And it usually is like this. I mean, maybe he had a psychotic break, maybe there was something. But it's weird. It kind of happened like the first one happened. He was like, oh, okay. And then it happened again.
00:08:21:07 - 00:08:42:24
Stacey
It just feels not premeditated to me. It doesn't feel like a serial killer. Premeditated, although it is a serial killer, I suppose. But it I don't know how confident he was in what he was, you know, let me pick up, you know, Ted Bundy, I feel, was very, calculated and and,
00:08:43:01 - 00:08:45:09
Dori
I guess you can see.
00:08:45:10 - 00:08:58:08
Stacey
And there was some messiness, but for the most part, it was very calculated and motivated. In this case, it feels like it was sort of like, well, maybe I'll kill her, or maybe I'll fuck her, you know, like.
00:08:58:08 - 00:09:06:03
Dori
It fell into his hands, like, yeah, didn't he never, like, did anything like this to his wife at all. And he was.
00:09:06:08 - 00:09:11:18
Stacey
And I was waiting. Yeah. Yeah, it was I was waiting for that with those two adorable kids that he had. Had you.
00:09:11:19 - 00:09:37:20
Dori
Done any? Have you? I haven't done any research on the wife. Have you looked up to see what she's up to these days? No, I really yeah. They didn't do a follow up on her. I think that was the issues. I wanted to kind of start out a little bit more about the child. They kind of like nonchalantly at the end talked about his father and maybe that kind of, you know, made him who he is today.
00:09:37:20 - 00:10:00:08
Dori
But he didn't do anything with it. It's like it fell into his lap at the bar when he first murdered. Right. The woman like, oh. And then, oh, I got away with it. So you know what? If it's almost like women started pissing him off more and more. So he just started murdering. Oh, okay. I'm getting away with this one.
00:10:00:12 - 00:10:05:04
Dori
Getting away with the next. I'm just going to keep, like, murdering these women
00:10:05:16 - 00:10:17:23
Speaker 1
Man, I don't understand. Maybe you will. I've killed many people, and they got to a point where I just didn't care. And, Now what the are
00:10:17:23 - 00:10:25:02
Speaker 1
they? I mean, a very lady and a real quick. That's what happened.
00:10:25:04 - 00:10:44:13
Stacey
I, I completely agree. You know, that was a sad story about her, one of the victim. And I'm, I'm forgetting your name right now. Her son who was spoke out a little bit and said if he had had a gun, he would have gone into the courtroom and shot Keith and himself. And he's like, but then he, you know, this is very simplistic what he said.
00:10:44:13 - 00:11:02:01
Stacey
He's like, well, then he would have won. Obviously he didn't do that. But, you know, this caused a lot. Julie. Yeah. Her name is Julie. This caused a lot of a lot of pain for a lot of families. And it also felt like Keith was trying to, you know, get his. As they said in the documentary, 15 Minutes of Fame.
00:11:02:01 - 00:11:22:23
Stacey
You know, he's writing this on the bathroom wall as he's tempting people. And it's interesting when something is that obvious and reminds me a little bit of Patrick Bateman in American Psycho. It's like, I'm the killer. Oh no, you're not. You know, it's like that. Like, no, you know, I love that. Like whole storyline of like him trying to confess and having people be like, no, I don't we don't think it.
00:11:22:23 - 00:11:46:04
Stacey
No, no, Paul's living in London, you know, this guy's trying to confess with the smiley face. And yet the confession from the guy still, it was still not solid proof. They do the handwriting analysis later, but you know what I mean? It's like, that's not solid truth, but what takes what kind of person does it take to also want to kind of confess?
00:11:46:04 - 00:11:51:19
Stacey
Like, I don't even know if he was trying to confess. He sounded just, like, messy, just messy.
00:11:51:21 - 00:12:15:23
Dori
I mean, I honestly think we should bring Doctor John in. Yeah, I think it's early. I think it's time because a lot of these, we have so many questions about this. And then he is and this was Doctor John's, suggestion to watch this, to to watch this one. So let's drumroll, please. Let's bring in the doctor.
00:12:15:23 - 00:12:17:13
Dori
The doctor is in.
00:12:17:13 - 00:12:22:06
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:12:22:06 - 00:12:23:01
Stacey
Yeah. Here he is.
00:12:23:01 - 00:12:51:02
Dr. John
Well. Thank you. I'm opening the door from the green room and have been anxious, in particular with this episode to come in because, I so echo Dory, what you're saying about, you know, it's kind of, this is kind of mundane in a way. I don't know if I was enthralled. I think audience be enthralled because this is the type of killers that are out there.
00:12:51:04 - 00:13:14:13
Dr. John
You know what? We get fed by the media and movies is, you know, these sensational, plots and sensational killing and this cat and mouse game of, finding these people. And I think there was another kind of blasé part about this is that this guy kind of just showed up as as you were just saying, oh, I'm the killer.
00:13:14:17 - 00:13:56:21
Dr. John
Hey. Hey, everybody. Killer. But I refute a couple of things. The documentary, kind of highlighted, which I think you both fell into. And that is this whole thing of the fame. I don't think he showed any interest in fame at all, other than he was Dahmer. He was stupid and socially in, you know, in which they say socially inept, you know, with sending a letter to his, high school reunion after he confessed and been proven and sentenced to all these killings, kind of sort of like, gee, remember me?
00:13:56:22 - 00:13:59:01
Dr. John
How come nobody's paying attention? You know,
00:13:59:01 - 00:14:15:13
Speaker 1
2003 was the 30th, class reunion. Keith had wrote the class a letter, kind of explaining why he wasn't there.
00:14:15:15 - 00:14:34:16
Speaker 1
I'm sorry. I will not be able to make it there for the reunion. I'm sort of in a prior engagement since my incarceration for being a bad boy. Many of my friends have deserted me. Something about being associated with me turns them off.
00:14:34:18 - 00:14:47:19
Speaker 1
It was just strange to me to read this letter from somebody that had done what he had done.
00:14:47:21 - 00:15:09:09
Speaker 1
You just killed eight women over the years and is like, matter of fact. It's all about me. And it's not. It's about the victims in the victim's family. And what they got to live with all their life.
00:15:09:24 - 00:15:29:13
Dr. John
it wasn't for fame was much. I have a theory about it, which I'll get to, but, So stay tuned, everyone. But I do want to also address one of the disappointments I had with the documentary. And you both echo this event. I wanted more about the wife. Why didn't they interview the wife?
00:15:29:15 - 00:15:53:06
Dr. John
I think that was the low hanging fruit here. You know, like she could have told us a lot about this guy. There was just a, almost a sentence of. Yeah, he started to turn weird and then didn't say anything else about it. Well, weird how, you know, he was weird from the beginning. And what was your attraction to him and tell us more about him, etc., etc..
00:15:53:08 - 00:16:27:16
Dr. John
And his mother and father. Why didn't they dig into it? But everyone and especially our audience, that's why we're here. You know, we're going deeper into these cases and asking these kind of questions and hopefully giving these kind of answers of what motivates them, what's their background? Why are the, doing this? And that's what I think is intriguing about this case, is that the vast majority of killers out there are very much like our dear Keith here.
00:16:27:16 - 00:16:43:12
Dr. John
Jespersen. They're not sensational. They're methodical, they're dumb. As opposed to, again, what movies portray and exist, you know, the genius killers that are fooling the police, etc.
00:16:43:12 - 00:16:56:18
Dori
I, I can get the sense that he was methodical. Like, I got the sense that it kind of again fell into his lap and then he acted upon annoyance.
00:16:56:23 - 00:17:25:02
Dr. John
Yeah. Like, let's be dating. I take that back. That slipped out. That slipped out of me. You're exactly right. Because this is the unique thing about, Mr. Jespersen here in this episode. These women all triggered something in him. Triggered something? If you look at the killings, like the one. I wrote it down here and someone said something about,
00:17:25:02 - 00:17:29:23
Dr. John
don't do this or, you know, I don't want to do it or the all or the one with the.
00:17:30:00 - 00:18:00:12
Dr. John
She wanted 40 more dollars. She was clearly a prostitute. And that triggered something. And each murder triggered something which she acted upon. So you're exactly right there. And I take that back. It was not methodical. It was very spontaneous. And there was the other thing about, you know, this case, which I think is important and maybe different from a lot of the killers and serial killers and mass murderers we talk about is he wasn't a hunter.
00:18:00:14 - 00:18:26:14
Dr. John
He wasn't hunting for to kill. As as, like Ed Gein or someone like that. It just kind of came upon, you know, and most of the time it was a sexual interaction, again, showing his so, social inept, you know, he was in these sexual situations and then something went terribly wrong. And often it was a little thing.
00:18:26:14 - 00:18:43:07
Dr. John
And I'll look up what I wrote down the quote from this one, I think it was from Tanya's and something a key phrase and, and oh, she said, come on, can you just get it over with? And boom, he blew up,
00:18:43:07 - 00:18:47:20
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:18:47:20 - 00:19:04:00
Dori
again. I go, but I think that I'm. And forgive me because I feel like I am kind of just again hell bent on this with the wife. And yes, you're right, like, she probably didn't want to be on this because she's probably just trying to live her life and she doesn't, you know, want to be bothered by this.
00:19:04:02 - 00:19:33:00
Dori
But like, he didn't snap with her and I'm sure and and they did say she would submissives and and all of that. But like, you know, as with your patients or you, you dealing with this a lot like why later in life would he start doing the why would these things trigger him later in life. But he didn't with girlfriends and his wife before that, you know.
00:19:33:02 - 00:20:07:02
Dr. John
Oh, because here's a key fact and it may sound very simplistic or fundamental. I think in his home environment he was controlled. That's why it was also wasn't early on. You know, he whether it was family control, remember he was controlled by a very strict father and maybe an abusive father. And I think being in the family environment and also his own marital environment put some controls on him.
00:20:07:06 - 00:20:31:01
Dr. John
But what where where would did all these murders occur? He was on the road as a truck driver. Three them. I'm not controlled by this umbrella of people that are watching me and I can't do this. That's another key aspect of of this whole case, which I think to me is in an enthralling.
00:20:31:03 - 00:20:58:00
Stacey
So he said, you know what? I liked sex. You know, I like, you know, it's, you know, he there was something sort of simple about him. I wanted to just bring this up. First of all, I watched a movie recently where a rapist was, said to the woman, stop being such a prick. Tease. Because she asked him something, and it and it and it angered him because she rejected him.
00:20:58:00 - 00:21:03:20
Stacey
And so I feel that there's a common thread with all with rapists and killers where
00:21:06:03 - 00:21:11:02
Stacey
you kind of have to play along. I mean, I don't know what you have to do because I've never been in the situation, thank God. But,
00:21:11:02 - 00:21:14:08
Stacey
00:21:14:08 - 00:21:23:04
Stacey
These people get angry, and you can't you can't control them, you know? So it just reminded me of that movie because he said that phrase a couple times to different women.
00:21:23:04 - 00:21:38:22
Stacey
And that kind of, that kind of phrase is always, it helped me, John. It's like, you know, one of those insulting things that puts a woman in her place or puts her down or makes her feel vulnerable.
00:21:38:24 - 00:21:46:11
Dr. John
Right. And that was talking about the triggers. I don't know if it was the same kind of trigger each time. It was, it was it was.
00:21:46:11 - 00:21:47:15
Stacey
Probably a different time.
00:21:47:17 - 00:22:13:06
Dr. John
You know, with each woman that he he killed. But there was this moment of that gets back to Dory's comment at the beginning of our podcast here. You know what turned it on? What what what what switch happened in the switch right. Trigger statement. And by the way, we all have that. We all have that in our brain that something will just trigger something like, oh, I don't like that.
00:22:13:08 - 00:22:40:09
Dr. John
It could be something very innocuous for most people, you know, like, I don't want to hear that or. Oh, really? You know, you don't like this about me or I did this. Oh, but most of us control that. This guy. Boom. You know, that was it. And I think the other thing we're dealing with, he was a huge man, as you both said, huge, six foot seven, almost six foot eight, huge hands.
00:22:40:11 - 00:23:05:23
Dr. John
And, you know, that that power. But power. I want to say another thing, which is, I think important for our audience, and that is about how the police reacted to this and again, why they need us is because the police were really wrong. You know, the police were, you know, saying, well, he did you know, he felt he got a kick out of the power.
00:23:06:00 - 00:23:30:10
Dr. John
You know, he didn't get a kick out of the power. My analysis is that it wasn't about power. It was this just totally, you know, ineptness of him. And again, this triggering. I do have some thoughts on a diagnosis for this guy, which I'll get to if you ask me, but, but. Oh, shocking other quick diagnosis.
00:23:30:12 - 00:23:50:13
Stacey
No. Well, you know, that that what it going back to what I said, it's like he was messy. Like, he just didn't really. It wasn't planned. It wasn't. It was just stupid, you know? It was like. Yeah, you know, can I mention one thing when we're talking about the family or the wife I found in, an article from ABC news.
00:23:50:13 - 00:23:59:23
Stacey
Happy face Killer's daughter, Melissa. More on moving forward. Uniting with other family members of serial killers. She's absolutely beautiful. Like beautiful woman.
00:24:00:00 - 00:24:03:23
Dori
That's the movie. That's the movie that just came out is about the.
00:24:03:23 - 00:24:06:10
Stacey
Daughter, the daughter and.
00:24:06:12 - 00:24:12:00
Dori
Yeah, yeah, confronting the father and realizing he is the happy face killer.
00:24:12:02 - 00:24:12:11
Stacey
There he.
00:24:12:11 - 00:24:16:00
Dori
Is. You know, I mean, it's nice looking. He's not bad. I.
00:24:16:02 - 00:24:18:13
Dr. John
I thought he was a good looking man, you know, speaking.
00:24:18:13 - 00:24:23:21
Stacey
Of good looking, nice, John. Yeah, exactly. Doctor. Yes. We think he's hot.
00:24:23:21 - 00:24:33:18
Stacey
What about this? What about this, Ed game that they're doing in that series? He's too good looking. Like the guy's hot again. Charlie. What's up? What's up with that? I'm sorry. I didn't mean to.
00:24:33:21 - 00:24:43:11
Dr. John
Yeah, but I it everybody. But I will say. I will say Doris did say Ed Gein was cute. Which kind of, you know, startled. Yeah. What is cute, kid?
00:24:43:11 - 00:24:56:19
Dori
He wasn't hot. He wasn't hot. But the. And not as the killer and Ed the killer. But back in the day, they showed one photo over and over and over. Right? And I'm like.
00:24:56:21 - 00:25:00:00
Dr. John
You know what? Being able, being.
00:25:00:00 - 00:25:01:24
Stacey
A bull, being able.
00:25:02:01 - 00:25:03:01
Dr. John
Yeah.
00:25:03:01 - 00:25:07:07
Dr. John
But where were we where we went off on that tangent that game I was just.
00:25:07:07 - 00:25:23:07
Stacey
Talking about Melissa Moore. And she's 36 and has kids of her own, and she's sort of dealing with, you know, the repercussions of having a serial killer father and sort of being, you know, not knowing what was going on growing up and learning later, you know, all that. I didn't read the whole thing. I skimmed it just so I could.
00:25:23:08 - 00:25:25:15
Stacey
Yeah, mention it. But,
00:25:25:17 - 00:25:55:20
Dr. John
That leads me to, you know, you both talked about that Laverne and John. I can't pronounce his last name. John is the convert that, confessed to the the murders. And what a bizarre situation that was. Laverne delivering to get back at this 18 year old, 18 year younger than her boyfriend. And so she she, frames him for the Happy face murders.
00:25:55:20 - 00:26:03:11
Dr. John
I think that's, you know, bizarre. But she ends up in prison as well. Sort of like. Gotcha.
00:26:03:13 - 00:26:11:08
Dori
He was happy about it. Her daughter was like. She was happy that she was protected. Yeah, so that the boyfriend couldn't hurt her anymore.
00:26:11:08 - 00:26:16:09
Dr. John
Wow. That was, an interesting twist to this whole thing.
00:26:17:07 - 00:26:24:04
Speaker 1
A phone call was placed anonymously to the sheriff's office in Portland.
00:26:24:06 - 00:26:42:20
Speaker 1
A person by the name of John Cesnik apparently was involved with the murder of the person found in the Columbia Gorge. This phone call was from Laverne. Evelyn Johnson. Star is live in roommate.
00:26:42:22 - 00:27:11:04
Speaker 1
Where the conversation is being recorded. Yes. Okay. She said that, on a Sunday night, John and asked her to pick him up from a local drinking establishment called JB's Lounge. He pulled into the lot. What did you see? I've been concerned with the young lady. The girl was laying on the ground, and, she rolled down the window and says, is she sick or what?
00:27:11:04 - 00:27:16:02
Speaker 1
And John says, no, it's worse that she's dead.
00:27:16:04 - 00:27:22:10
Speaker 1
John was responsible for Tanya's death. This is what she told us.
00:27:23:15 - 00:27:38:22
Dr. John
And then, the other thing I thought was, I don't know how both of you reacted to this. I'm curious. They showed Laverne getting out of prison, you know, and everybody's happy and hugging her and all this, and. And there's this. I don't know, something hit me strange about that.
00:27:38:22 - 00:27:56:09
Dr. John
If your relative who gets out of prison after X number of years or decades and coming out of jail, you know, you it just seems so loving and embracing. I don't know, maybe that says something about me. I think I'd be a little more standoffish.
00:27:56:11 - 00:28:10:12
Dori
Yeah. Wait a second. I think we need to do this. I think, Stacey, we need to be the doctors. Wait a second. You're saying that Laverne and her loved ones were too loving.
00:28:10:16 - 00:28:14:03
Dr. John
In her own death? Laverne was you.
00:28:14:05 - 00:28:28:24
Dori
Was too hugging with them. Whereas if you just got out of prison, you would be like, what? To your wife and to your kids? Heck, paws off everybody I just got out of.
00:28:29:02 - 00:28:31:18
Dr. John
I think I, I forget time alone.
00:28:31:21 - 00:28:33:13
Dori
I need some time to myself.
00:28:33:13 - 00:28:44:18
Dr. John
Yeah, I think I would, I think I'd be a little shy and like, in the. Am I really accepted here? But you came out of prison bursting out, and everybody's hugging and kissing her. Yeah.
00:28:44:20 - 00:28:45:19
Stacey
Interesting.
00:28:45:21 - 00:28:46:12
Dr. John
I, I.
00:28:46:12 - 00:28:51:02
Stacey
I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm sort of on the fence. I mean, maybe she smelled bad, I don't know.
00:28:51:04 - 00:28:53:05
Dr. John
Yeah, right, I don't know. Could have been.
00:28:53:07 - 00:29:06:05
Dori
I my family would be very happy to see me and my friends and I would be very happy as well. So the fact that both of you pondered this is actually shocking to me.
00:29:06:07 - 00:29:06:23
Dr. John
I just.
00:29:07:00 - 00:29:07:13
Stacey
I really.
00:29:07:13 - 00:29:18:03
Dr. John
Want somebody, you know, I story a few now that I, you know, know you and consider you a friend. I'll be there when you get out of prison, but.
00:29:18:05 - 00:29:18:19
Stacey
I'm not going to.
00:29:18:19 - 00:29:22:05
Dr. John
Hug you. I'm not going to be hugging you real tight. I'm sorry.
00:29:22:07 - 00:29:30:13
Dori
I'll make sure. Okay. I'll. I'll totally cool. I get it, and I appreciate both of you being there but not touching me. So I.
00:29:30:13 - 00:29:35:11
Stacey
Actually think. I actually think I would hug you, so don't put me in the same camp as Jack.
00:29:35:11 - 00:29:41:03
Dr. John
I'd only hug you if you reach out, but I think I'd stand, you know, with my hands, the side. Kind of like.
00:29:41:05 - 00:29:42:04
Stacey
You would go.
00:29:42:06 - 00:29:43:07
Dr. John
So, like.
00:29:43:09 - 00:29:52:10
Dori
I almost feel like we should. We should try I it this probably is impossible, but we should try to get Laverne.
00:29:52:12 - 00:29:54:06
Dr. John
An episode.
00:29:54:08 - 00:29:55:05
Dori
To talk to.
00:29:55:06 - 00:29:56:00
Dr. John
That would be.
00:29:56:02 - 00:29:57:13
Stacey
That would be amazing.
00:29:57:16 - 00:30:02:16
Dori
Just to ask her a few quick questions when she looks so.
00:30:02:16 - 00:30:18:05
Stacey
Period. She looks like she came out of 1977. Like her hair, her fit, all the, you know, it's just this sort of period look and even in the what year was that when she got out and 90s, right. Yeah. I mean the 90s. Well, and.
00:30:18:07 - 00:30:24:08
Dr. John
And what about that guy who was having this affair with her? He again, not a bad looking guy. Eight. No.
00:30:24:10 - 00:30:26:22
Stacey
Younger and no, not a bad looking kid.
00:30:26:22 - 00:30:28:18
Dr. John
She looked like my grandma, you know.
00:30:28:24 - 00:30:31:15
Stacey
Yeah, she does like she looked old even when she was young.
00:30:31:19 - 00:30:32:15
Dr. John
Yeah,
00:30:32:15 - 00:30:32:21
Dr. John
yeah.
00:30:32:22 - 00:30:42:01
Dori
I like the fact that all of our podcasts and I am definitely the number one guilty about this is who is attractive. And yeah, it's not like.
00:30:42:02 - 00:30:43:09
Stacey
Well, you know.
00:30:43:11 - 00:30:55:00
Dori
Serious attractiveness on serial killers and the people that these documentarians are about. You know, I like I think that's how we differ. That's how we differ from other from the other people. Gentlemen.
00:30:55:02 - 00:30:57:12
Stacey
Yeah. We're talking about hot versus not hot.
00:30:57:12 - 00:31:13:14
Stacey
But, you know, actually I just thought of something from it that when the mother saw the pictures of her daughter's clothing on TV and the jeans and the shirt with the flour, I just. I felt so bad for her. Yeah, you know what I mean? You know, I she even thought.
00:31:13:15 - 00:31:39:11
Stacey
I think this was Tanya, I believe. Was this Tanya? Yes. Okay. So. And her Tanya had a sister as well that they interviewed. Right. I just want to make sure I'm on the same page. But, you know, when she said she saw, she. It broke her heart. And she said she also had this feeling that about her before she went out that night because she had talked to her or something, just made me sad, you know, to see your kids clothing, I mean, I don't know what I would do if I, if I saw that.
00:31:39:13 - 00:31:40:10
Dr. John
That would be I.
00:31:40:11 - 00:31:41:20
Stacey
But she knew.
00:31:41:22 - 00:31:42:21
Dr. John
Horrible.
00:31:42:23 - 00:31:45:00
Stacey
And she had to remember, you know.
00:31:45:00 - 00:31:46:14
Dr. John
A,
00:31:46:16 - 00:31:50:17
Stacey
You know, blemish on her skin. So anyway, John and I.
00:31:50:19 - 00:32:30:12
Dr. John
I think that's one of the, you know, we'd like to really give messages in our podcast here. And I think that's one of the social messages to give, you know, this whole idea of women going out there and hooking up casually with strangers and this might be some kind of romantic sexual fantasy that that people have, but how dangerous it is to just be hooking up, with somebody that you don't know and you know, please teach your children not to be going out there and doing this.
00:32:30:12 - 00:33:00:03
Dr. John
And, you know, wasn't like Tanya was totally drunk on not in control of herself. She willingly, put herself in this situation. I mean, the kids just said as soon as Tanya saw him, she kind of ran up to him and hugged him. The stranger, you know. So I think that's a warning that we have to give people is that this is this is a dangerous situation.
00:33:00:03 - 00:33:28:00
Dori
This whole warning, it's a warning, but it's our society. Like people go to bar, you know, like if there is a fear, I keep saying it, you know, like there's. So I think nowadays too. And this was in the 90s. So it was really going out and meeting people in person. But nowadays it adds, you know, with all the apps and just like randomly like meeting people, you don't.
00:33:28:00 - 00:33:53:11
Dori
I mean, that's not any better anyway. So like, you know, so I think if we're teaching a lesson like obviously tell somebody where you're going, make sure you have maybe a friend or two with you. You know, whatever. I think that's like the basics and that's understandable. But yeah, our world is just like like here was a guy who had never killed before, Tanya, who suddenly that night was like, yep, she hugged me.
00:33:53:11 - 00:34:06:08
Dori
It was weird. Other things triggered it. I'm just going to murder you like nobody saw coming. But. And then. And then he got probably the bug in him to go out and do it again and again and again.
00:34:06:08 - 00:34:30:02
Dr. John
I want to point out that it wasn't like a lot of killers we're going to talk about. It wasn't a sexual perversion. He wanted to get laid. You know, he was looking to get laid, you know, like, sorry to say, of my gender, but a lot of guys do. And it wasn't weird sex, it seemed like, was convict conventional sex, but it was this whole trigger thing.
00:34:30:04 - 00:35:05:17
Dr. John
They all said something that just didn't sit right with Keith and boom, he exploded. And then, of course, with his physicality, it didn't take much for him to, you know, kill these women. So very sad and very dangerous situation. That's why I think be enthralled audience with this story, because this is the way it typically is. You know, most I think the statistic is that 80% of all killings are are domestic killings by someone.
00:35:05:17 - 00:35:25:13
Dr. John
Did you know. So it's not hunters and, you know, the silence of the Lamb Killer, etc.. You know, these are these are people that, you know, are you familiar with you and in our environment. So that's the message here. You know, it's dangerous out there.
00:35:25:13 - 00:35:29:24
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:35:30:14 - 00:35:40:16
Stacey
You know what made me like it when he talked about the smiley face is like, well, you know, I just made two eyes and a crescent smile, just like the way he said it. I was like, who says that?
00:35:40:18 - 00:36:26:16
Dr. John
Yeah. And why again? Why Dory's beginning. It was so hard to watch is because there was this mundane, this to me and is like, yeah, we're going to do this one. And it goes to his, you know, mental state which drum roll, you know, let me talk about, a diagnosis. I don't know if I'm going to do this on every episode, because, you know, it's on the borderline of, of not correct for me to give a diagnosis on, on the media, but, you know, my analysis of, him is that he's a schizoid personality, and that's that's a very, interesting kind of mental disorder.
00:36:26:18 - 00:36:50:20
Dr. John
They really have very little affect. They don't feel sorry for people. They have a hard time recognizing their own emotions, let alone someone else's emotion. And this guy fits exactly that pattern. You know, and socially, ignorant, not picking up social cues. And again, I go back to none.
00:36:50:22 - 00:37:19:00
Dori
I think you could hear that. No, I think you could hear that during the tapes. Right. Like with the police and just how, like, nonchalant he is about talking about things. There's no emotion, there's no remorse, there's no nothing. It's just kind of like whole. The whole, like, Stacy keeps doing the whole whole, like, here you know, here it but it was he's just like, oh yeah, man, I, you know, she wanted me.
00:37:19:00 - 00:37:25:10
Dori
So of course I'm going to have sex with her. And then she did, like, he's just talking like he's talking about the weather.
00:37:25:12 - 00:37:28:18
Stacey
Right. Two eyes and a crescent smile.
00:37:28:20 - 00:37:32:17
Dr. John
Yeah. And I just put that on the wall. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
00:37:32:17 - 00:37:38:03
Stacey
I am the killer. I saw her jeans were, you know, ripped off. He ripped the front of her jeans.
00:37:38:19 - 00:37:51:11
Speaker 2
I had seen paper clippings which told me that two people were being investigated for murder of Tony Bennett.
00:37:51:13 - 00:37:58:18
Speaker 2
So I started writing bathroom walls.
00:37:58:20 - 00:38:11:06
Speaker 2
I sprawled out on the wall. But I killed Tony Bennett in January 1990.
00:38:11:08 - 00:38:35:16
Speaker 1
It was found in a men's room with a truck stop in Livingston, Montana. This is January 21st. Mindy killed Tonya Bennett in Portland. Two people got the blame. So I can kill again. Cut off buttons on jeans. Proof. That's written on the door. In ink
00:38:36:10 - 00:38:39:03
Stacey
So you're saying schizophrenia. Is that what you're saying?
00:38:39:03 - 00:38:40:18
Dr. John
Don't know. Okay.
00:38:40:18 - 00:38:41:09
Stacey
So it's different.
00:38:41:09 - 00:38:42:04
Dr. John
Already.
00:38:42:06 - 00:38:44:11
Stacey
Different a schizoid personality.
00:38:44:13 - 00:39:10:20
Dr. John
Right. That would be the what we would call in my field a differential diagnosis is schizophrenia or a, schizoaffective personality. But that entails that there has to be some break with reality. There was no break with reality with this guy, you know, he was didn't have any hallucinations, delusions. He didn't, you know, put on a happy face mask and, you know, etc..
00:39:10:20 - 00:39:22:04
Dr. John
You know, he was very much in reality, but a simple, socially inept, guy. It's a serious mental illness, by the way. Don't.
00:39:22:06 - 00:39:41:04
Dori
John, I'm just curious who else, like, of the, like, maybe of more popular serial killers or killers? Who else has that do you think has that diagnosis of, like, some other, like more famous killers? Anybody that comes to mind?
00:39:41:06 - 00:39:54:19
Dr. John
All right. Hard question. Could have been, Dahmer could have been Dahmer have. That is one of the diagnoses that, you know, he could be characterized with, you know, just kind of.
00:39:54:21 - 00:39:56:19
Stacey
He had a similar bumbling sort of.
00:39:56:20 - 00:40:00:20
Dr. John
Yeah. Well, you know, we went to the bar and he was picked up again.
00:40:00:20 - 00:40:02:05
Stacey
And then I ate his heart.
00:40:02:11 - 00:40:03:05
Dr. John
Yeah, right.
00:40:03:05 - 00:40:07:00
Stacey
Yeah. It's like sort of really simple. And he had a TV dinner with his grandma.
00:40:07:02 - 00:40:32:05
Dr. John
Yeah, yeah. I want to know one of the statements I remember from the Dahmer cases. I just wanted, you know, to be so close to them that I wanted to ingest them, you know, and eat them, you know, to to like. Well, you did do that in Jespersen has that same kind of quality. So there would be one I would say, Dorie, that I probably say it's at least one of his death.
00:40:32:05 - 00:40:34:07
Dr. John
One problem. Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:34:08 - 00:40:38:14
Stacey
At least one of his problems. So interesting.
00:40:38:16 - 00:40:42:20
Dori
How old is he now. Like did we did do we figure that out?
00:40:42:21 - 00:40:44:03
Dr. John
How? Question.
00:40:44:05 - 00:40:47:07
Dori
Because he's still in prison, sir. He's still alive.
00:40:47:08 - 00:40:52:16
Dr. John
Yeah. I think so. And I don't think they ever gave an age stamp.
00:40:52:18 - 00:41:07:06
Dori
I think I think our resident Googler, Stacy, is on it right now. She loves to look up facts. We'll have that. We'll have that, actual age in just just a few seconds. I can't see that. Stacy, can you tell us, please?
00:41:07:06 - 00:41:10:21
Stacey
He is drum roll, 70 years old.
00:41:10:23 - 00:41:11:08
Dr. John
Wow.
00:41:11:12 - 00:41:24:22
Stacey
Young is born in 55. April 6th, 55. Yeah. And he's, you know, Canadian American serial killer known as a happy face killer. And, Yeah. There he is. Yeah.
00:41:24:24 - 00:41:27:02
Dori
To me, that's still young.
00:41:27:04 - 00:41:28:20
Stacey
Yes, young. It's like my mom.
00:41:29:01 - 00:41:34:01
Dr. John
Not my mom. It's not true. Yeah. Sorry, mom. Like your mom's like me saying that.
00:41:34:07 - 00:41:36:01
Stacey
Yeah, well, my mom's.
00:41:36:03 - 00:41:37:12
Dr. John
Way is is
00:41:37:12 - 00:41:42:16
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:41:42:16 - 00:42:22:04
Dr. John
one of the other things that we haven't talked, mentioned, mentioned is that this whole idea of, him growing up and not fitting in. And I think that's a sad aspect of this. And again, another lesson for the audience here's this big of a guy all his whole life as a kid, he was probably the biggest kid in the class and kind of, you know, and again, as we're characterizing him, you know, there's not that great the role that, you know, and what happens to kids, they get, you know, singled out, teased, they get rejected.
00:42:22:06 - 00:42:40:23
Dr. John
You're not part of the in-group. And I just that's another part of this guy's story that I think is so sad. Not that it contributed necessarily to his killings, but look what happens to kids when you do stand out. There's something different about you.
00:42:41:00 - 00:43:02:11
Dori
Whether you he they said like he wasn't popular. He wasn't even though of his height he didn't play basketball. He wasn't. So like he wasn't in the quote unquote in-crowd and bullying to children is one of the worst things that you can do when a lot of these killers have been known to have been bullied as as kids.
00:43:02:11 - 00:43:03:09
Dr. John
Absolutely.
00:43:03:09 - 00:43:21:10
Stacey
And does it start with them? I mean, does it start because there is something inherently wrong with them and then it or is it that people just pick on them and then it develops? I mean, because I don't think everybody that gets bullied, I was bullied very severely. And as far as I know.
00:43:21:12 - 00:43:22:19
Dr. John
I think I.
00:43:22:21 - 00:43:31:16
Stacey
But, you know, I was severely bullied and that's another topic. But, and, you know, obviously something didn't snap. So John thought.
00:43:31:19 - 00:43:57:19
Dr. John
Well, it's certainly contributing contributed to him having this morose, depressed kind of, countenance about him, you know? But I don't think it was the root cause. I don't think it, you know, that was what made him kill people. But he had a whole lifetime of of being on the outskirts of society. And that's what's sad about what we're talking about.
00:43:57:19 - 00:44:24:12
Dr. John
And and by the way, I, in my field was an early voice, bringing up home detrimental teasing and bullying is to kids. And I'll tell you, 25, 30 years ago, I'm dating myself. But, you know, people would would be Pooh poohing me. You know, I'd be giving parent lectures and lectures in the community and on teasing and bullying.
00:44:24:12 - 00:44:44:06
Dr. John
This is what we see in kids. And this is the the danger. And I would get hecklers in the audience, especially men and dads, going, oh, that's not a problem. In fact, what I tell my kid is some kid teases you. You go there next day and punch him in the face, you know? And it's like, really? How primitive is that?
00:44:44:08 - 00:45:21:11
Dr. John
So teasing and bullying is, you know, a huge problem in our society. And and he's the epitome of one thing I want to point out, which is very important. He gets ostracized by the peer group and in child society because of his size, which he can't do anything about. And kids get ostracized for having a big nose. Or when you're a child for a while, your ears might be sticking out and you look kind of funny, you know, until you grow into your, you know, adult face, etc..
00:45:21:13 - 00:45:29:17
Dr. John
Or do you have a funny hairdo because your parents are old fashioned or something like that? Or you have to wear hand-me-down clothes.
00:45:29:19 - 00:45:38:04
Stacey
Right? So a lot of the clothing and the the stuff is a big part of that, because kids don't fit in. They're not wearing, especially in these areas out here.
00:45:38:04 - 00:45:55:06
Dr. John
And there's nothing you can do about it. As a child, you're not in control of your life. And so that cuts to the core. It cuts to the core of who you are is. And and that's why it hurts so much is because, you know, there's nothing I can do about being big nose, you know.
00:45:55:06 - 00:46:20:04
Dori
Until it also it also sounds like too like as he grew up, like he they didn't talk about friends of like, like male friends of his or that he had any. And granted he was on the road all the time and, you know, as a truck driver. But no one mentioned anything about a friend, which is sad, which is sad to me.
00:46:20:06 - 00:46:21:01
Stacey
Again, very sad.
00:46:21:01 - 00:46:38:24
Dr. John
We're on we're on a very important track here, which is that he was again, outside of society and that you do. I think we'll find I might be wrong, but check this in future episodes. I think this is going to be a.
00:46:39:01 - 00:46:39:22
Stacey
A common theme.
00:46:39:22 - 00:46:44:17
Dr. John
A lot of a thread of a lot of the killers that we're going to do outside of society. You know.
00:46:44:18 - 00:46:51:07
Stacey
Dahmer. Yeah. I mean, yeah, certainly not not certainly not Ted Bundy. He was, like, popular. I don't know if he had friends, but.
00:46:51:07 - 00:46:51:22
Dori
Yeah, Gacy
00:46:51:22 - 00:47:03:04
Dori
had a lot of friends. I keep bringing up Gacy like that's the only one I know. But it's like, I just. I've. I've watched so much on, John Wayne Gacy, but he's pretty popular. He knew a ton of fascinating.
00:47:03:06 - 00:47:05:19
Stacey
He was also a clown, you know, so as we talked about.
00:47:05:21 - 00:47:08:04
Dori
Clowns have a lot of friends.
00:47:08:06 - 00:47:09:23
Stacey
Yeah. Clowns for us.
00:47:10:00 - 00:47:11:12
Dr. John
So it's.
00:47:11:14 - 00:47:14:20
Stacey
What is your sad clown? Do you have friends or is it just happy clowns?
00:47:14:20 - 00:47:27:08
Stacey
You know, I John Wayne Gacy. Didn't you have, like, a smile? Like, it's like these smiles, these, like, sort of metaphorically opposite of what's going on inside of these people, you know, happy face.
00:47:27:12 - 00:47:34:24
Dr. John
That's what's scary about them, by the way. You know, we maybe we should do a whole episode on clowns and why they're so scary. I got a lot of research on that, by the way.
00:47:35:01 - 00:47:40:07
Dori
Really? Yeah. Link brothers, Barnum and Bailey Circus is at your research.
00:47:40:09 - 00:48:03:09
Dr. John
Well, I forgot where I was called in to a case in, God, where is that? Baraboo, Wisconsin. About a young man who tortured, another young man in Baraboo was the, winter home of, Ringling Brothers, circus. But back the clowns. One of the things a little tease to the audience. If we do have an episode on that.
00:48:03:11 - 00:48:04:00
Stacey
I love this.
00:48:04:01 - 00:48:14:05
Dr. John
It's it's about the the mask and the costume being someone that you know who's behind that. That's what's scary about it.
00:48:14:07 - 00:48:15:24
Stacey
Yeah. It's like being an actor.
00:48:16:01 - 00:48:19:09
Dr. John
Just kidding. Yeah, well, the really scary were actors.
00:48:19:13 - 00:48:26:11
Stacey
No, but that is true. It is. Do you think it's do you think it's a conscious choice of theirs, or is it something they're attracted to?
00:48:26:13 - 00:48:28:00
Dr. John
What's. What do you mean, being a clown?
00:48:28:01 - 00:48:36:08
Stacey
Like being like, let's say Gacy's a clown, but he's also a murderer. Is it like a cover or is it just ironic,
00:48:36:10 - 00:48:52:09
Dr. John
Land with Gacy? I think it was a cover, but a lot of people were were, attracted to being a clown. Surely want to entertain and be funny with, you know, children and stuff like that. They're not all pedophiles. And killers. And we're not.
00:48:52:09 - 00:48:53:14
Dori
Bashing clowns.
00:48:53:17 - 00:48:55:06
Dr. John
Out there. No podcast.
00:48:55:06 - 00:49:00:06
Dori
No just clowns. You're very supportive of the clown community.
00:49:00:07 - 00:49:05:23
Dr. John
We're pro clown from. And we don't want the clown union, you know, coming out.
00:49:05:23 - 00:49:22:05
Stacey
Yeah. No, I certainly don't want any memes chasing me. Which reminds me of one thing. When I was little, my mom hired. This is a different story than the Gacy clown. My mom hired a clown for my third or fourth, maybe my third birthday, and the doorbell rang and it was a bunch of, as my mom said, memes.
00:49:22:09 - 00:49:37:09
Stacey
It's a bunch of mimes. And my mom told them to go home. The clown was the clown wasn't available. They sent him a bunch of mimes and all the kids started screaming. So I didn't have a clown or a meme. Yeah, but no, we're not against clowns here.
00:49:37:09 - 00:49:40:01
Dori
I definitely think we're veering off track in this.
00:49:40:03 - 00:49:43:05
Stacey
Oh, it's fine. It's it happens.
00:49:43:07 - 00:49:46:04
Dr. John
I mean, we're just back to reality here. Dory.
00:49:46:05 - 00:49:51:11
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:49:51:11 - 00:49:55:20
Dori
the one thing I just wanted to just really quickly ask because you brought it up station.
00:49:55:20 - 00:50:20:02
Dori
We didn't go into it too much. Is that Julie? That woman to me and her son were the most tragic people in the whole documentary because the his mother was a, like, obviously struggling with drugs. Right. And then she gets involved with him like they were boyfriend girlfriend. Right. She and Keith were, were dating each other
00:50:21:07 - 00:50:29:18
Speaker 1
He said that he'd been friends with Julie for a while and they hooked back up. I think week and a half, two weeks before.
00:50:29:20 - 00:50:37:05
Speaker 3
I wanted to get off the road. I don't want to drive a truck. All my life. She wanted to go tell her mom that we're getting married.
00:50:37:07 - 00:50:42:05
Speaker 2
So it was your dad at that point that you guys were going to settle down and together, they figured it out.
00:50:42:08 - 00:50:46:24
Speaker 3
I didn't think at that time. I was really thinking about.
00:50:46:24 - 00:50:49:11
Speaker 4
Whether it really actually work.
00:50:49:13 - 00:50:52:07
Speaker 3
But obviously, you don't get laid.
00:50:52:08 - 00:50:58:09
Speaker 4
It became clear to me that Keith Jespersen is all about Keith Jespersen of.
00:50:58:23 - 00:51:00:19
Dori
and then he kills her.
00:51:00:19 - 00:51:05:21
Dori
And that son was the most tragic person in the whole documentary to me.
00:51:05:21 - 00:51:12:00
Unknown
Oh.
00:51:12:00 - 00:51:16:02
Speaker 1
Gorge.
00:51:16:04 - 00:51:25:17
Speaker 1
Started to walk home. Collapsed in the middle of the street. I can't explain it. I mean, you can't explain the feeling. You know, I just basically fell to the ground.
00:51:31:17 - 00:51:52:18
Speaker 1
I show up to the coroner's office. And my mom was laying on a metal slab table with a white sheet up to her chest and a bruise from cheek to cheek as dark as this table. Brush marks on the side of her face.
00:51:52:20 - 00:51:59:23
Speaker 1
Physically seeing her and then hearing how she got that way. It's horrible.
00:52:00:00 - 00:52:04:12
Speaker 1
That's my last image of my mother.
00:52:04:12 - 00:52:22:18
Dr. John
I think there's an interesting point about that, son, which very interesting point for the audience notice is transformation. He said. Everyone, just FYI to the audience, you know, when the trial first started, I wanted to bring a gun in and put it right.
00:52:22:18 - 00:52:24:08
Stacey
I said that in the beginning. Yeah.
00:52:24:10 - 00:52:45:19
Dr. John
Put a bullet in his head. Head, butt. Did you notice later on in the documentary, he said, you know what he's rotting in jail. If I would have put a bullet in his head and then he wanted to kill himself, he said, Yeah. Man was I'll put a bullet in his head and he'd kill myself. But I couldn't bring a gun into the courtroom.
00:52:45:22 - 00:53:09:16
Dr. John
Interesting. Right. But then he said at the end, you know what if I would have done that he wins. Right. This is so important for people to hear. He wins. It's like getting revenge against somebody who does something wrong to you. You know, if, you know, fight fire with fire, the person wins.
00:53:09:18 - 00:53:14:19
Dori
It's like Stacy did bring this all up in the beginning. And I was listening, Stacy. But
00:53:14:19 - 00:53:25:00
Dori
I think because you said it and I've been thinking about it throughout the whole time that we've been talking. It's just makes me like he's the one that I would want to root for the most out of everybody.
00:53:25:01 - 00:53:45:24
Dr. John
But but let me finish my transition that he took, which is that at the end he said, you know what? He's writing in jail. And that's the ultimate, you know, punishment. He's he's just suffering. And I thought there was, you know, interesting transition for a person to take, you know, from I'm going to shoot him in the head to, you know, let him or at
00:53:46:04 - 00:54:04:22
Stacey
The feeling of wanting to do something versus doing something are two different things. And you, the healthy person, has a feeling and then knows that they shouldn't do it and they can reconcile it maybe sometime. But there's other people who I mean, but I don't know what I would have felt if it was my child or something. I mean, I don't know how.
00:54:04:22 - 00:54:21:14
Dr. John
I think you would feel. You know, you'd like to you'd like to kill that person, you know. Yeah. Yeah, but but I thought and I thought that was very admirable of that. Some to say, you know, I've, I got over that and let him run. Yeah. Let him run. That's even.
00:54:21:14 - 00:54:22:18
Stacey
More. Exactly.
00:54:22:18 - 00:54:44:07
Dori
I think with this documentary, watching this one, I am much more interested in everybody else than of Jespersen. It's like, I really don't care. Like I really have no desire to look him up and like, I'm not, like, fascinated by him. I, I was much more fascinated by those who, spoke about him and who were affected by him.
00:54:44:09 - 00:54:58:06
Dr. John
I agree, and as you heard me say early on in our podcast here, is that, I wish the documentary would have taken a different twist. And, and we heard more from the wife, the parents, possible friends.
00:54:58:06 - 00:55:18:13
Dr. John
but I. Yeah, you're right. I wanted to know more about that again, why we're doing this podcast. Because so many of these media presentations of these people, these killers and cults and, multi-level marketing people, what's the why behind it and what's what's behind them.
00:55:18:13 - 00:55:28:00
Dr. John
And let's talk about this. That to me is the most interesting thing about all of these things. You're right. I don't want to know any more about Keith. It's pretty simple. No.
00:55:28:02 - 00:55:29:10
Stacey
Yeah, he's kind of boring.
00:55:29:10 - 00:55:34:06
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:55:34:06 - 00:55:41:16
Dori
I hope for this one that many clowns listen to it. That's my. We did that all wonderful sounds. Listen to this episode.
00:55:41:18 - 00:55:45:06
Stacey
We we really want to bring the word to our local circus.
00:55:45:12 - 00:55:52:12
Dr. John
You mean clowns in a kind of, wide bandwidth, like, you know, I used to call my children clowns, you know, you clown.
00:55:52:14 - 00:55:58:13
Dori
I hope your kids are listening to definitely better clowns.
00:55:58:20 - 00:56:13:00
Dori
So there you have it, everybody. I think, our next episode after this one is going to be a doozy. I think we're going to have, we already know what that one is. We won't, ruin the surprise for everybody, but,
00:56:13:00 - 00:56:34:21
Stacey/Dori
we may be discussing a cult or a crime. Our theme music is written and performed by Midnight Current, and you can hear more from them on SoundCloud. Please visit pod Candy podcast.com to learn more about us and listen to all of our episodes, or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:56:35:02 - 00:56:36:10
Stacey/Dori
Thanks so much.
00:56:36:15 - 00:56:39:14
Stacey
Candy.
00:56:39:16 - 00:56:48:24
Unknown
I.
00:56:49:01 - 00:57:02:14
Unknown
Wish.