Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. Let's get into the episode.
Donna Martin:Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the debrief with pastor Matthew Stephen Brown. Hello, sir.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes, ma'am.
Donna Martin:It is great to see you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thank you.
Donna Martin:How are you feeling?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm feeling good. Wife and I were a little under the weather this weekend, her more than me, but I am feeling I'm feeling better. So had a headache for two days. I yeah. That's cool, Brown.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Never had
Donna Martin:that. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I am rebounded, and I'm feeling good.
Donna Martin:Are you a caffeine drinker? Yes. Sometimes when I have those really bad headaches, drink coffee with an Excedrin. I don't know if that's supposed to happen like that, so please don't take this as medical advice, but it helps me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh my gosh, I was in the gym in sauna, there were these two out of shape dudes talking about steroids from Mexico, and it's me, so there's four of us in the gym, it's me, two dudes from Mexico, or two Hispanic guys talking about getting drugs from Mexico, and the other guy's a doctor that goes to our church, and I'm just sitting here thinking, these guys have no idea that I'm morally judging them and he's medically
Donna Martin:judging them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, that's awesome. We as we are just listening to the dumbest advice you could give each other.
Donna Martin:Yeah, that's rough. Let's yeah. Steroids anywhere.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But So Donna and I are not doctors. We don't know if We don't know. And Excedrin works, but for Donna
Donna Martin:It works for my headaches sometimes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:But it has to be Excedrin with anyway.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah.
Donna Martin:No. We're way off topic. Alright. Well, we thank you for sitting in all these amazing questions. We have a great show today, and I'm excited to hear your response.
Donna Martin:So this is Dana from Redlands, California. She says, my husband and I both have gay brothers, and my husband's brother and his boyfriend have had us at their home several times. We will be moving closer and anticipating that they will visit. We are not good with them sleeping in the same room together in our home. In addressing this, we know there will be hurt feelings involved, so what is the best way to handle this situation?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Didn't she say though that she had been in his home several times?
Donna Martin:She did. She said they had gone to their house, but by moving closer, they anticipate that maybe there will be some overnights, and they're uncomfortable with that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so so here's what I would say, Dana, is I think that we need to be very, very careful in this instance that we're not coming across, so this isn't a church service, your home isn't a church, and a lot of people feel like that is, and so I would say if the parent of a young adult or teenager that's gay, I think it's okay to have boundaries and to say, look, not in my home, but when somebody becomes an adult you have to respect them as an adult. Here's the asterisk: as long as they're not, you know, trying to convert family members, your friends to their way of thinking. So for example, if I had, and I do have, I don't know that he would consider himself gay, he's trans, but I have a close relative of mine, somebody that I love wholeheartedly, but he's not a Christian, doesn't believe in God, and if he came to my house and he had a significant other, I would welcome them into my house as long as they're not trying to proselytize me Sure. And my family, because, and especially, Dana, if I had gone to his house with his partner and been under their roof, I just think that there's some hypocrisy there, Don, and I'm not trying to call you a hypocrite, but I think you need to be very, very careful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, you know, I would have loved ones in my house that are drug addicts, alcoholics, thieves, as long as it's not causing a problem in my house, they're alcohol you know, they're not having an outburst, they're not stealing my stuff, They're not doing things to disrupt my household. I would invite people with those issues into my house. And so if this is just, you know, somebody that's gay, they're they're nice and cordial and they respect your values you've had a discussion about what you believe, we need to remember that Jesus went to the home of Zacchaeus. And in Jewish culture, Zacchaeus is the worst sinner. And Jesus repeatedly uses tax collectors as an example of the very worst of sinners.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So a lot of Christians try, I hear this all the time, that there's no levels of sin, you've not read the Gospels. It's just not in there. All sin is deadly, but not all sin is the same. And so so many Christians, you know, think that, but Jesus repeatedly says and uses tax collectors as an example of the worst sin. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And yet in Luke 19, he goes to his house under his roof, and the house, everything that Zacchaeus owns has come from stealing money from people. Fellow Jews. And so I I think we need to utilize that. Jesus never compromises. Hey, it's wrong.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's not wrong to steal. Like, what you've done is honorable, right, and true. But he allows his love and truth to convict Zacchaeus of And his so I think it's so, so important that we don't do that and we just say, hey, how can I love this person and care for this person? And I would just say, hey, if it ever comes up, hey, we love you, but we believe in a creator God. And so I would start there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, you know, part of what we need to understand in Genesis three is the snake in Genesis three is a rejecter and rebeller against God's creation. So gay sex is a rejection of the creative element of Yeah. So gay sex cannot produce life, it is anti creative in its work. It just can't. Two men cannot have a baby, two women cannot have a baby.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's not that sex is all about creation, but that is a significant part of what it is. And so it's a rejection of procreation, it's a rejection of the diversity of family, it's a rejection of the order of God's things. And so we need to stand on that truth and just say that, but just know that you also are called to love them, and there's two truths there. And I would say our family members are the hardest people for us to lead to Christ. And so I'm gonna go overboard in love and grace and where I can share truth when it's invited and appropriate.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I don't just sit down over Thanksgiving and say, okay, let's discuss gay sex. Yeah. You know, that's not an appropriate time, any more than I would discuss politics because politics is running families. Absolutely. I mean, I would say what's more divisive than homosexuality in Christian families right now is politics and families.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, in my own family, it's caused, you know, huge division over, you know, did you vote for Kamala or did you vote for Trump? And it's just like, look, want to share a turkey and talk about what I'm thankful for and grateful So I would just say, hey, where can we agree? And if you have the moment, Dana, share your love for them, share your concern for them, because here's the truth, God loves both your brother and your husband's brother more than you do. And so, but I just, as long as it's not a problem, you know, they're not argumentative, they're not trying to proselytize you or your children, I think that that's really important. Because then now they're not valuing your values, and so what I try to do nowadays is make sure that we're respecting them and their views, and they are respecting me and my views.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think that's really really important. Respect has to go both ways. Yeah. And if somebody really loves you, they're going to have some grace for disagreement. Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think that's where our culture's really really failing right now. It's like, if you disagree with me about anything, you're intolerant, you're ugly, you're awful.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I can have nothing to do with you. And it's like, wait a minute, I've come to a different conclusion and on the issue of homosexuality, it's not a cultural conclusion, it's a biblical conclusion. So I don't know if you have any thoughts.
Donna Martin:Yeah. No. I was just this is hard. I think you're right when you say family is the hardest to win over or, you know, even to the faith. Yeah.
Donna Martin:And, you know, I know having young children, I would have a hard time just knowing what to say, how to explain this to my kids in a way that honors God, but also, like you said, make sure that we're remaining loving to these family members. And so I think you're right. Jesus sat with, invited over everybody, and every and they were and he was criticized for it. You know? Not not everybody thought it was a good idea, but I think just praying through some wisdom on how to explain it to your children, I think, is gonna be one of the the hardest things or, you know, challenging things, but
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:making And I sure say this. I would rather have the challenge of explaining that to my children in my home than them having to make sense of that in their high school Yeah. Absolutely. In their junior high, or with a college professor that's going to completely dehumanize my values and make me evil. So that's the shift is, you know, when I was a kid, homosexuality was maybe not seen as evil, but it was not good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now what I believe is seen as not So good it's completely shifted in our culture. And so, you know, my kids, we grew up in a very my kids grew up in a very conservative home, I'm conservative biblically, and I had two friends, Ed and Tom, that were gay, and they lived together, they became born again Christians, got convicted, stopped having sex together, changed their lives, and I told Tammy, our kids need to be exposed to because these I want them to experience that, hey, there are gay people that believe in Jesus the way that we do and have changed their life. And so we just sat down and it was a it was a funny lunch, but I I wanted my kids to experience that, no, no, no, mom and dad don't hate gay people. Sure. We believe positively that sex is for this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And my two friends, you know, they would agree with that. Even though they struggled with that. You know, that wasn't their personal desires or what they would call their nature, but they weren't trying to live natural lives, they were trying and struggling to live supernatural lives. I think that's long as the relative or friend is not antagonistic, is not pulling your kid aside, hey, you know your mom and dad, what And they believe is I would say that's about anything.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Absolutely. I'm not gonna let anyone in my home that's going to try to put my kids against me or teach them something that I believe is wrong. But one of the things I believe is right is loving people that I disagree with, and I mean, that's what Jesus does.
Donna Martin:Yeah, absolutely. So good. Thank you. Thank you for that question, Dana, for sharing your life with us. We appreciate it.
Donna Martin:Okay. This is Elizabeth in Rialto, California. My two year old and two month old were just diagnosed with the same fatal brain disease. We don't know how long they will live. Some pass in childhood, and some can live to their twenties, although profoundly physically and cognitively disabled.
Donna Martin:How can I know that my babies are going to heaven? My heart tells me they will, but what does the Bible say?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So the Bible doesn't specifically say anything about this, that's why there's different opinions. Yeah. So the passage that kind of people turn to is David has an affair with Bathsheba and she becomes pregnant, and they ultimately lose that child. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And David mourns and fasts and is really unconsolable, which I think I would be if I lost one of our kids. I don't think that I would recover from that. I have two pastor friends of mine that have both lost sons, and it's been years and they're still marked gravely by that loss. But David, when when he finds out that his son is dead, he stops mourning, he goes out, refreshes himself, washes himself with oil, and what he says is is I know I'll be with him one day.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so and a lot of people point to that and say, okay, that's that's really, really good news there. And so I would just say, I don't know Elizabeth because scripture doesn't say specifically, but what I do know about God is Jesus, and and what would Jesus do with a child who's lost its life? Mhmm. The Jesus I know would welcome that child into his arms. He says to the disciples, do not do anything to hinder children, but let them come unto me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I would say that the Lord Jesus' arms are wide open to the suffering of your children and to the loss of your children, and he will welcome them into his kingdom because that's who he is.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I don't have a verse. So, you know, I wanna be careful with my heart says, because sometimes our heart says things that isn't true, but in this case, Elizabeth, I would just say, what would Jesus' heart say? And I would go there. Who who is the person of Jesus in this instance? And so I would say, with comfort, you know, he can welcome them into his kingdom.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And again, Isaiah, when he sees the new heaven and the new earth, he sees children. Yeah. And so Jesus says we will not be married nor given in marriage in in the kingdom of comes, in the new heaven and the new earth. So where do those children come from? I believe those are the children that we didn't get to raise, we And get to raise so the loss will be wiped away, and you will get to not only know that these kids are in heaven, but you will be able to be with them on the new earth and to mother them the way that you wanted to.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because again, Jesus makes all things new. Yeah. And we need to remember that. So let me just say, Elizabeth, my heart when I read this question just was so sad. And for those of us who are parents, we just gotta understand every kid's a gift and every child is precious, and every child's a miracle that's healthy and whole.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we just need to thank God for our healthy kids even when they drive us crazy because, you know, what story here to have two kids with a genetic illness that results in premature death. So Elizabeth, I would say this, you don't need a podcast, you need a pastor. Let somebody come alongside you, love you, be with you, pray with you, cry with you, because this is something that I think knowing that they'll be with Jesus in heaven will comfort you, but you need more personal comfort than just a podcast. And so I just wanna say, I love you. I I can't imagine.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Can't imagine faith that you're gonna need to have to survive this. So I'm praying for you.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Absolutely. Praying. Thank you for sharing, Elizabeth. Alright.
Donna Martin:We have another Elena in Moreno Valley, California. I have a little sister who practices witchcraft. She's been doing this for years, and I've tried to tell her in the past that doing certain things aren't a good idea. I wanna tell her the harsh truth that what she's doing is dangerous, and God is the only thing that will give her the love, joy, and fulfillment it seems that she desperately searching for. But the thing is, I barely know her because we were separated when we were very young.
Donna Martin:On top of that, we live on different coasts. I have been praying for her as long as I can remember, but I don't know how to bring this up. I'm not going to stop praying for her, but pastor Matt, any suggestions? What else can I do?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So Elena, thank you for, you know, this question, and my heart just goes out to you. Mhmm. And you know, witchcraft is becoming more and more popular with women. It's seen oftentimes amongst non religious women and women who found that Christianity didn't work for them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's kind of a tool of power. And so a way for women to rise, feel powerless, who feel unseen, who feel abused, who've been wounded, or they've just been exposed to this and raised in this, but it's a unique form of kind of the feminist movement, and I'm not saying that all feminists are witchcraft, but just really, really female centered Yeah. Is how I see this religion and practice. And for those of us who are Christians, we need to remember that we're not told not to practice witchcraft because it's fake, we're told to not practice it because it's real. So I don't know what level your sister is into this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Is it a, you know, she wears a crystal around her neck? Mhmm. You know, she has a couple acute sayings on the wall, or is this woman in a deep dive into this? And so that's the first thing that I would wanna explore with her is, why don't we talk to each other? I would say this, Elena, why don't we get to know each other?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Why don't you tell me about your faith? Mhmm. How you got into that? And I would say be curious and be a listener, and then hopefully your sister would say, well, tell me about your faith. And then at some point you could share, you know, my faith, and again, I don't want to judge you, I don't want to belittle you or put you down, but my faith says that witchcraft is dangerous Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's something that we should not do. How does that make you feel? Have you ever experienced something in witchcraft that scared you? Yeah. And so I would be I would be a great question asker and just ask that because just we gotta remember, just as Christians have doubts doubts about their faith, atheists have doubts about their atheism, witches are going to have doubts about their own faith, and that's because they're humans.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so I would just explore that, press into that, not get into a right or wrong debate. Mhmm. That is not the way to to win somebody to Christ. You know, I think about the book of Acts.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There's this witch that follows is it Paul around? Yeah. And he she won't leave Paul around
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Alone, and and she just keeps pestering him. These people are, you know, God's warriors, these are God's prophets. And and Paul just ignores it, and then he gets fed up Yeah. And deals with it, and then it becomes a problem because she actually made her owner money. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so again, if you're a Christian listening, witchcraft is real, and it taps into things that we don't understand. There's a spiritual realm that the Bible speaks of, but it speaks of it vaguely. And so when we try to understand these things, you know, Genesis three, the Garden of Eden is a celestial place where heaven and earth meet. A lot of people don't realize that. So there are heavenly creatures in the garden.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Not just just your zoo animals. And this is gonna blow people's minds, but when this might blow your mind. But when prophets in the Old Testament tried to describe angels, they don't look like people. No. They're animals.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, they're they're they're these celestial Yeah. Yeah. I mean 30 eyes.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The face of a hawk and the mouth of a lion. And Right. And they're trying to describe a celestial creature, I think, is a better word to describe that and there's a reason that Satan shows up in the garden as a snake. This is gonna blow your mind. You're a church girl
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm so sorry and everyone that grew up in church, this is gonna blow your mind, but in Isaiah chapter six, are you ready for this? I'm ready. He sees the Lord and the Lord is surrounded by what? Starts with Seraphim. Seraphim.
Donna Martin:Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. What what is that? Do you guys know? I was raised in church burning Yes. Me give you seraph in Hebrew.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Are you ready? Serpent. Oh, wow.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow. I'm thinking little fat baby angels.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Now The best translation and I am unaware of any any Hebrew lexicon anywhere that translates to those burning ones. Wow. Seraphim, flying snakes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right? Spiritual beings. Wow. Genesis three, what shows up?
Donna Martin:Probably some type of flying snake that Who started walking
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:was, in Hebrew, the highest of all creatures. Right. And then what is the curse? Now he's the lowest of
Donna Martin:all Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So he lost his glory, and so, you know, why do we call them burning ones? I I don't know, but I
Donna Martin:suspect That's so interesting.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That when a venomous snake bites you, it burns. Yeah. I I only know one person that's been bit by a snake and almost died. Our pastor Jonathan Millen.
Donna Martin:What? Really?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. He was he stepped on a copperhead in Texas. He had to be like flown medevaced in a Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I think his insurance bill was like 250,000 because they had to get the, what do call it, the anti venom.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow. So to treat that, but yeah. When I asked him what did it feel like, he said it burned. Crazy burning. And so
Donna Martin:Maybe that is where they got
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:it from. Yeah, so we just have to understand that there's this world that we don't understand, that we don't see. The Apostle Paul says we wrestle not against flesh and blood Right. But against powers, principalities, and what's the next word? Powers, principalities, and I can't, man, I shouldn't
Donna Martin:Powers of the air.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, yeah, and powers of the air. In high places. Of the unseen realm. The unseen realm. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I love what N. T. Wright says, that the Bible is full of verses that are clear signs pointing into a fog. Mhmm. And so the scripture is clear, but we're trying to understand something that we can't understand.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And if you're new to Christianity, you've gotta understand this. The spiritual world is real and we can tap in that through our faith, through Jesus, but you can also tap into that through spiritual mediums, you know, palm readers, witchcraft, I'm trying to think, the occult. There are all kinds of ways to appease these demons that are anti God. Absolutely. So who is the devil?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He is anti God. And you know, a lot of times people say, well what is the devil's name? And we don't know, he has titles. He's sometimes he's the serpent, sometimes he's, you know, he's Accuser. The accuser.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well I actually think Satan is, well, I have to go back and look at my Hebrew, but I think it's hard to translate, but his name is actually the opposer, the one who stands against. Yeah. So it's not it doesn't say his name is Satan, it's Satan, the accuser.
Donna Martin:Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But the angel of the Lord can can stand against. Sure. So it can be, you know, he's against you in a good way, Satan is against everything and all God's creation in every negative way, and witchcraft is against God's order Absolutely. And God's And it's choosing to tap into a spiritual realm that we do not understand and things that we cannot see that are very real. And so we shouldn't mock it, we shouldn't make fun of it, but we should just say, okay, don't understand this, but you know, Saul in the book, I think it's, I can't remember if it's first Samuel or second Samuel, but he goes to the witch of Indor to bring up Samuel, the And it works.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It works. And it says nothing about, you know, we shouldn't do that and the witch is mad because you've lied to me because you're supposed to take care of me. And he says, no, no, I won't do that. You know, he's just a terrible leader at that point. But we gotta be really, really careful because the demons that I think witches tap into, they know some truth, but they don't know all truth.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so this is why we don't talk to our relatives who are dead. We we know, necromancy is condemned in the Scriptures. Don't do that because you don't know who you're talking to. You don't know what you're talking to, and you're opening yourself up to very, very dangerous things. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So there's a spiritual world that has, let's call it the council of God, God's crew, right? So when you read that in the Bible, God has a crew. Mhmm. He's the first gangster, right? He's rolling, so he has a crew, and some of those fell.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And they're fallen ones, and now they're against you, they're against God, they're rebels, they have information, they have wisdom, they're eternal beings. And so they can mess with us and they know things that we do not know, and they know how to play and feed on our insecurities and our weaknesses. And so that's what I'd say witchcraft is doing there. And so I would just say slowly, slowly, slowly, Elena.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Say I love you, I care for you. And share with her the concerns that the Bible has about witchcraft.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And again, not what you're doing is wrong, not what you're doing is terrible, not, you know, because none of us respond well to that, But how to wake her up to say, hey, you could be exposing yourself to some things that are powerful but dangerous. God is powerful but absolutely 100% pure and good. Yeah. You know, have you ever experienced something in witchcraft that's caused you to say is this good? Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because Jesus says no one is truly good but God alone. Yeah. And that doesn't mean that, you know, witches can't bring good things. They can do that manipulatively. Like they can bring about something, they can manifest something, they can share their power.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, these demons, they can do these things just like the witch in the book of Acts. She had a power of prophecy. She could see the future.
Donna Martin:Yeah, and she was
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:accurate. Yes! And lost that power when Paul sent the demon away.
Donna Martin:Right, absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So we have to understand this, that, you know, Christianity is surrendering our power to Jesus. Witchcraft is about gaining power.
Donna Martin:Yeah, that's good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So when we look to, you know, what Jesus did in Colossians, no, excuse me, in Philippians two, he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, to cling to. Yeah. So he did not hold on to power. Right. But he released power and let darkness completely overtake him so that he could overtake darkness for
Donna Martin:us. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Jesus is the opposite of what I under I'm not an expert in witchcraft.
Donna Martin:No. I hope not. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know
Donna Martin:I think it's really interesting that I I hadn't really thought it through that it's I see mostly women
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:That kind of gravitate toward this, and I I actually had a couple of friends during COVID renounce Christianity and go full on
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow.
Donna Martin:Into witchcraft. Yeah. I mean, tarot cards. And you know what? Honestly, it was their bitterness with the church.
Donna Martin:Yeah. And it caused them to I mean, one of the girls, you could see her spiraling
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:On I had to block her on social media because I was like, I got so much other spiritual warfare going on. I can't have you throwing hexes or whatever. You know? I already have enough going on. But I've seen I saw two friends who were strong believe you know, strong believers, we'll put quotes around that, really renounce their faith, and then really just go towards witchcraft and sage and calling up spirits Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And all
Donna Martin:sorts of things. And I think it's really important for our audience to know that this stuff is absolutely real. I remember I was in Starbucks one time, and there was two women sitting at the table reading tarot cards. Mhmm. And I was like, I wanna get to know them because I wanna understand this.
Donna Martin:And so I remember sitting with them for probably two hours asking questions, and, really, the tarot cards, in a way explain redemption. Like, at the at the very last card is like a a king sitting on a throne, and it's a lion, and I was trying to explain to them, hey. This is very similar to the gospel story. Have you noticed that? You know?
Donna Martin:And both of them you find were hurt, bitter Yeah. With
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:the And I think, again, this is I hadn't planned on sharing this, but I think this is why it's so important for churches to value women and exalt their giftedness. Women, I think oftentimes are more attuned to the spiritual world than are men. Why did this snake talk to Eve? Yeah. She's more attuned to the than spiritual to Adam.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so when we look at the book of Acts, when we look at the controversy of women in the book of Ephesians, or excuse me, in two Timothy, the letter to the pastor of Ephesians, when we look at one Corinthians, it's trying to control and organize women speaking prophetically in church. It's not trying to eliminate it. Yes. So women are more verbal, know, like, and if you don't, believe me, have a boy and a girl. It is unbelievable how much more words a woman will use than a man.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And you know, and if you're married, you know, value your man's words because they're going to be fewer, they just are. And it's just so important that as a church that we we validate women and we give them a platform to speak because witchcraft is saying, no, no, come over here.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There's no chauvinist here.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and here's the truth is, you know, like guys, if you're dating some hot girl and she's like, yeah, I practice witchcraft. You're like, okay. Cool. There isn't a woman out there who goes on a date and the guy's like, I'm a warlord, and she's like, awesome.
Donna Martin:Right. You're you're running
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:for the hills. Right. You know, you just it's not Right.
Donna Martin:We're not dating the wizards.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. And no nobody wants to date a wizard. And by nobody, I mean almost nobody because I'm sure somebody's gonna type in. You know, I'm in love with the wizard.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's the church's failure to acknowledge the prophetic voice
Donna Martin:of women,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:and then we muffle them, and the devil's like, oh, I'd love to hear what
Donna Martin:you I'll take you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because who was the devil interested in a conversation with in Genesis chapter three? A woman.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that snake serpent would love to talk to you because he hates God, he hates here's where he agrees with witchcraft. He hates the created order.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what is the created order? Adam was created first
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Eden was second. Devil's like, you don't like being second, do you? Right. He's like, you know who else? I don't.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I hate submitting. And yet what does Jesus do? He submits. I do not do what I say, but whatever the Father says. Crucifixion was not His plan, but He emptied Himself on our behalf.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so and Jesus, the man Jesus emptied Himself of everything so that we, men and women, could have everything. But it's so important that we give women a voice and a role in the church. That's biblical. Yes. And there's gonna be disagreements.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, we've had, since, you know, I started allowing women to preach, we've had people leave our church because of one verse in the Bible. I'm like, okay, but what about these hundreds And of just know, at Sandals, women make up 60% of our church. So you're silencing 60% of the church when we know from the book of Acts they hear from God. Jason has three virgin daughters who
Donna Martin:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It doesn't say he has three sons.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He has three daughters who have a spiritual gift of prophecy who are speaking from God, and we need to hear that. And what's a witch doing? She's saying, I want wisdom from the unseen world. I want I want words from the unseen world. I want power from the unseen world when God has already given them that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's real power. It's dunamis, dynamite. Yeah. And in Acts chapter two, both men and women prophesy Right. When the Holy Spirit falls upon them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So it breaks my heart that women have been silenced, that women have been treated as second class citizens. That's just disgusting. And and really, you know, in witchcraft, women feel like they moved to first class. Absolutely. You know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And there's
Donna Martin:nobody telling them what to do except for the cards and the stars and everything else. And I will add this caveat, if there is bitterness in your heart towards God or towards the church, then you gotta really deal with that, because I feel like that's a huge open door Yes. Into witchcraft. I have seen it over and over and over. All of us have had some kind of church hurt.
Donna Martin:We've talked about this. Jesus would say, they killed me, so there you go. Right? But if there is a root of bitterness in your heart about the things of God or the people of God or the church, you gotta be so careful. You gotta shut that door real quick because the enemy would love to pervert that and invite you into something that makes you feel powerful, but it's gonna drag you to hell.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Amen. And and and again, you know, when you throw off the yoke of male leadership Yeah. You invite demonic leadership.
Donna Martin:That's
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So a good a a witch is not independent.
Donna Martin:Sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She's a slave
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:To something she has no idea what it is. Absolutely. As Christians, and I know this is unpopular, but the Apostle Paul, Peter, and John, they describe themselves as slaves to Jesus. Like, they're not like my buddy. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Know, Paul says, you know, I, a slave of the Lord Jesus Christ, I'm a servant of God. Now a lot of translations translate it bond servant Yeah. And so or bond slave, but you know, it's in the ancient world, you you could choose to sell yourself in slavery to make some money. What made American slavery so evil was it was forever and generational. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:In the Roman world, you could sell yourself into slavery, make some money, buy yourself out.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, was a very, very different form, and that's not to approve it, but as Christians, we're voluntary slaves. We're saying, no. No. No. I'm choosing this, and because being slave to God is better than being independent to myself, because what I'm not is I'm not independent to myself.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm independent to the whims and the desires that are demonic.
Donna Martin:Yeah, absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I'm choosing chaos, I'm choosing darkness. You know, I think about Genesis one, two, you know, you know, and again, I hate using the Hebrew because the Hebrew language is so difficult, and I've been studying it now for ten years and I still make mistakes, but Genesis one, two, it says, In the beginning, the earth was null and void. The word is tohu wobohu, and it means wild and chaotic. Not suitable. And the abyss is like the ocean.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, and then for the Jews, that's terrifying. Terrifying to What does God do? God brings order, then over and over again says it's good, it's good, it's good. And then that culminates in Genesis chapter two with this beautiful garden that's safe. And then they rebel and they go their own way, and what are you doing?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You're going right back to the chaos that God tried to deliver you from. And you know, that's so sad for your female friends because they've invited chaos.
Donna Martin:Oh, and
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you You could see have rule and reign in my life.
Donna Martin:Yeah. You could I could see the chaos taking over. Yeah. And authorities, powers. I was trying to think of the other word.
Donna Martin:I was like, the other word, authorities, principalities, powers in the unseen realm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. I know. I should have memorized that verse before. So, you know, Elena, again, what your sister needs to know is that love is motivating. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Everything that you're saying. It can't be a I'm right and you're wrong. Yeah. It has to be I love you, and here's what here's why I want you to know Jesus. And I'm just here's here's what makes Jesus different.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Witchcraft die for you? Did witchcraft go to the cross for you? Did witchcraft cover all your sins? Mhmm. Because Jesus did those things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and and and here's what Jesus asks for. He asks for you to do what he did for you.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He died for you, he wants you to die to self. And that can feel disempowering because it is. Mhmm. But what we get when we release our power is God's power, the holy spirit. And it's just it's just a better way to live, so.
Donna Martin:Amen. That was awesome.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That was good.
Donna Martin:Thank you. Thanks for checking out this episode. You can always submit your own questions by going to move.sc/ask or write us there in the chat. Send us a DM. We would love to hear from you.
Donna Martin:If you wanna support this ministry, please go to move.sc/give, and we will see you next time. Bye.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
Scott Schutte:If you enjoy this podcast, please like, comment, and subscribe. Thanks for being a debrief listener.