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Ria is back In this episode of 'Fuck Fear with Christine Spratley,' Christine dives deep into the complexities of burnout, discussing its symptoms, causes, and remedies. Rhe conversation navigates the challenges of managing workplace stress, recognizing personal and systemic issues, and the importance of replenishing oneself. They share personal experiences, practical tips, and the significance of autonomy in preventing burnout. Whether it's balancing work responsibilities, personal relationships, or self-care, this episode offers valuable insights to help you overcome burnout and reclaim your well-being.
00:00 Introduction and Technical Difficulties
01:43 Burnout Series: Understanding Stress Management
06:05 Identifying Burnout Symptoms
08:42 Physical Signs of Burnout
14:39 Emotional Detachment and Burnout
23:38 Addressing Burnout in Relationships and Work
28:35 Systemic Issues and Personal Responsibility
37:20 Navigating Relationship Equity
38:14 Handling Arguments and Communication
40:15 Balancing Work and Home Responsibilities
44:00 Incorporating Fun into Structure
47:32 Addressing Burnout and Recovery
53:36 The Cycle of Burnout and Job Fulfillment
01:03:07 Final Thoughts and Reflections
Creators and Guests
What is F*ck Fear with Christine Spratley: Living Like a Head Bitch In Charge ?
This podcast is for anyone who wants to live like an HBIC—or lives with, works with, marries, dates, or is raising one. Let’s be real: being a Head Bitch in Charge is messy, bold, and unapologetically badass. This is not a guidebook—it’s a pantry.
My guests and I will share the ingredients that we use—what’s worked and what’s failed—as we say “fuck fear” and take action to live a fulfilled life. We cover real-life hacks and deep philosophical pillars to navigate the chaos of everyday life—where some days, my only accomplishment is having a bra on and my teeth brushed.
We’re tackling the daily shit women navigate, from workplace politics to relationships, raising kids, and building careers, all with humor, audacity, and zero filters.
So, tune in—tell your friends, and even your enemies. This isn’t about aging with grace—it’s about aging with mischief, audacity, and a damn good story to tell.
40 Fuck Fear - Part Two burnout
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[00:00:00]
Ria: Welcome ladies and gentlemen to Fuck Fear with Christine Spratley, living like an head bitch in charge.
And, um, after much technical difficulties we were on. You're taped anyway. We're not on the air, but we're taped and we'll go from there. And we have got r Ellen Eek on the other end across the pond, but we are going to do our shots today. And Maria, we've gotta get you some of these. Yeah. Um, today [00:01:00] is, is Dr.
Dr. Feelgood, but we added some stuff to it, so we're gonna, this is like the mystery stuff. Okay. And when you're ready,
Joe: I'm ready.
Wow.
Ria: There are some great faces. Oh,
Joe: kind of tastes like steak. What,
Christine: what?
Ria: How does that taste like steak, you know, all the pepper. Okay. Yeah. Not really, but okay. To him it tastes like steak. All right. For those of you that don't know, um, we are not talking about steak. Um, we are talking about the second episode in our burnouts series of two.
And last time we talked about burnout being the, um, [00:02:00] non, I was gonna say the non-management, but it's really the lack of management of stress. However, I. Unlike what we tend to sometimes think it being is as I am lacking the abilities to manage stress, um, it is more of the system is lacking the abilities to manage stress typically through a disproportionate amount of it being put on you responsibility.
And so there is no time to replenish when you're depleted. Simple. Um, but I found a clip. Hold on a second. Joe, did you get that clip? [00:03:00] [00:04:00] how long, whatever you're carrying, like if you had to list all of that list. That running to-do list, how long has it been on there? And one, i i, i, I don't know about you, but I tend to add stuff. I write my to-do list and I go, oh my God.
And then I forgot this and I forgot this, and I forgot this. Joe's sitting over there nodding his head. I mean, oh yeah. And the kids need this, and oh yeah, I've got this bill. But, but, but, and, and, and those are the running narratives in the background of our mind. So I'm curious. That really hit me because, uh, I'm strong.
I didn't change my capacity to hold the glass of water didn't change because of some deficiency in me. It was the fact that I've been holding it too long and that there's no other resource stepping in to hold the [00:05:00] glass with me or take it from me. And that's what I wanted to bring today was, you know, I'm curious how it hit you.
It was a stark reminder of actually the importance of autonomy when it comes to preventing burnout, because it's all well and good saying put it down, but if someone's jamming that glass in your hand, it doesn't matter because you can't, no, yeah.
You can put, only put down your amount of stuff. And I think we know there is a, a link in terms of evidence from how much choice do you have over your stress load and the severity of burnout. Mm-hmm. Right? Because that, that glass is gonna keep, if you are holding the same job for 10 years, God, it's gonna just get heavier and heavier and heavier in terms of, and the chronicity of it.
So yeah, it, it was a nice reminder for me [00:06:00] around that and around choice how important choice is, and I think that's a good. A good point to, to kind of kick us off, because today's session, this whole session today is about how do we recognize burnout way before it starts? And then how do we change, how do we get our autonomy back?
Hmm. Waste our autonomy, whether it be in our personal relationships, saying, honey, I need, we need to, to talk about this and I've got some examples and I know you do too. Mm-hmm. Or in work where we can say, Hey, this should, the structure needs to change and how do we do that? And then also the third part of today is going to be about how do we replenish?
Because I know you work with people on replenishing. Yeah. Because I think unless you have all of those, that triangle. Yeah. To identify [00:07:00] burnout before you're burnt out. Mm. And where it is and going, okay, what's causing this? And it's not just me, it's the system. What in the system? And then how do we fix that system?
And then how do I recover? Mm. And replenish? Because even if the system is fixed, if I don't recover, and those are the choices that I get to make about how I show up, I'm never going to be full. Hmm. Again, and I'm always going to run on empty. And so I just think I see it as a triangle in dealing with burnout more.
So, you know, you've got the identification of what, what's lacking in the system. Oh, what's the stress? How does this, you know, manifest itself? Then how do we fix the system? And then how do I heal? Not heal? 'cause he'll heal, I think is a. Sometimes a word that for me is overused [00:08:00] because it means that I'm, I'm broken.
Um, or there's something that needs to, but it's more so just replenish, like, drink, like I'm thirsty more so than a deficiency of me and not just how do I get back to me. Yeah. Strength. So that's, that's where we're going with it today. Uh, you, you get you down with that R r's shaking her head. So if you can't see her, so let's, let's talk about identifying and Ria.
I wanna come in here with you on your end, um, and talk about, especially from the physical side of it before we're. By gone mm-hmm. By the, the stop gap mode. And we're, we're past that. What are some things that we should be listening to in our body where it just says, oh, we're a little bit off today.
Mm-hmm. For me, the first one is I start hitting my snooze alarm for no apparent [00:09:00] reason.
Hmm. Fine. I'm, but I've got this. The other one is, I, I rely on excitement or caffeine, but then I collapse. Yeah. As soon as the movement of the stimuli or the adrenaline or this, this emergency. Then the middle one that I see all the time is, oh God, I'm doing the same thing. And boy, it's the same routine and it just feels heavy.
It just, ugh. And then a little bit more, I start staring at the screen, kinda zone out. And, and, and those are, and you know, and then the final one is typically when I've slept all night, all night, and I wake up absolutely exhausted, Uhhuh. So those are the external, but I'm curious from your perspective, right? The first thing, and I hope, [00:10:00] I hope you permit me this, uh, slight artistic license.
Um, the first thing I actually notice in myself, it, it is physical and it isn't in that my language changes. I start saying stuff like, oh, I don't care. Oh, I can't be asked. And what I'm saying there is actually I can't care. I can't care. I, I don't have it in me to care about this outcome. When last week, the week before, it would've been really important.
Mm-hmm. There's just not that, it's almost that physical space to give a shit. Right. The second thing for me is the shoulders. Yeah. Right, right up here, I'm wearing them like earrings, like just this, this very rigid spec, very rigid holding of the body up here.
And then in the hips, this big SOAs muscle, um, in the glutes, the, the stress muscle that's. [00:11:00] It's one of the first to respond in terms of like an acute stress response. And so it's stiffness around the hips. Those are my two very, um, clear, like, you know, you've been running a little bit too much, relying a bit too much on the adrenaline to get through.
Um, and then also my appetite. It's, it's, it, the, the feeling of being hungry. It's just not there because there's not, you're so much in the fight flight, the body's burning all of its physical, um, kind of backup supply and it's not ready to. It almost can't take in new ones because it's in that mode of, if we were way back in, you know, pri primal times, we'd be being chased.
You know, you're not gonna stop and have a sandwich if you're being chased by elected. And it like, you're not going to subway, you've not got time. Um, so yeah. And then I think the general, and, and those are the kind of the first stages. And [00:12:00] then for me it becomes just lethargy. It doesn't matter how much you lie down because you're just more tired.
Mm-hmm. It's the restless, the lack of nourishing rest, the lack of ability to get nourishing rest. Um, and then the aches, you know, the aches, the backaches, the headaches, the, the lack of pleasure in the body. And then as you say, you are going for the entertainment, you're going for the things that that shocked.
That shot of dopamine, that shot of, um, enjoyment just to get you through, because it's not, you're not like say, well, you're undernourished. Yeah. So of course you are. I call it like, you know, building jumping or train skipping, where you're like, you're hopping from one to the other to get you to the mm-hmm.
And it's like, and it's interesting because when you were talking, you know, my body is screaming, it's like the tightness in my jaw. Mm. Yeah. That's there. My, my and [00:13:00] and Nate, my, my physio and my PT person, Emily would just be like, oh yes, you hold it all in your shoulders. And then my lower back, I'm always, I'm always trying to shift my head.
Mm-hmm. Um, so I can have that movement of loosening it up. The others that I find are like, I wake up at 3:00 AM and I'm wired, and I remember this. I would get up. I'd go to bed around nine. Um, I would sort of fall asleep, but not really. I'd, David would come to bed around maybe one or two, my ex and I, and I'd be so light sleep and I'd wake up and then I couldn't get back to sleep.
So I'd just, I'd get up and I'd work. Yeah. And I would do that and do that and do that, and I would just, but I couldn't sleep. And then when I did, I didn't feel rested at [00:14:00] all. Mm-hmm. And then again, I've, I've seen this other, in, in some friends of mine who've gone through this is that they, I they just keep getting sick and it's never, this is what pisses me off.
It's never, I'm sick and I'm out. It's like I'm sick. Low level. Yeah. And then the, the whole of you, you have zero desire. And no food has no appeal. Yeah.
Christine: Which I love food. Mm.
Ria: But I, but you're right. If I'm being chased by a cheetah, I'm not gonna stop for a sandwich. If I, if that's where my body is, uhhuh, it's running.
Now I'm curious to see what are your signs for emotional detachment? Because again, there's three, the three are areas. One is the energy depletion. We talked a little bit about that, the physical signs, but then the emotional detachment when, you know, that, that, that our listeners could go, oh yeah. Like I'm trying to give them [00:15:00] things they go, they could themselves in, or, you know, you can see themselves, yourselves in.
So, like for me, a big thing is, is I quit prepping Yes. For things that I used to care about. Ah, fuck it, fuck it. I don't care. Can't care. Mm-hmm. Can't care. Um, don't have the capacity to care. Um, I avoid people. People that take, um, and, and I avoid the wrong people. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't even have time to slow down to engage in people that are gonna have a real conversation with me.
And I avoid being in and because it allows me to fill blank. Yes. That mind numbing. Just numb, numb, numb. Yeah. Yeah. I'd miss deadlines and be like, huh? Me? Yeah. Yeah. The way in which. [00:16:00] I've experienced it and people I've I've worked with have described it as well. It's like being behind a plane of glass.
It's like your life is out there and you can almost, you know, you could force yourself to grasp it, but you don't have the energy to put your hand out and really feel it as wheel. Mm-hmm. There's like this almost slight dissociation from being really present because of that ongoing overwhelm of just No, and I think as well, it's guilt, it's guilt.
That, you know, you are not showing up your best. So there's that element of, oh, I'll just dispatch a little bit more and then little bit more until your whole world is actually not real to you and you aren't to it because you, in your true self, you've, you, you know, you are, you are in here, you are hidden way in the depths that you've gotten so small.
Exactly. Yeah. [00:17:00] Yeah. And the chaos around you has gotten so big. It's almost like watching, I, I can do this sometimes when I don't. And, and it's funny to talk about this now because I was like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm out. What am I burn out for? I just got back from Spain, but, and last night I was talking with a friend of mine, and we were talking about, just on the 17th of June was the day that I gave my notice at Deloitte.
And it was the day that I literally separated, not separated. I gave two weeks, but. We were talking about just how much I, I've gone through in that year. Like everything in my life is different. And how even though everything is different, how that can be burnout and how that be a depletion and how much grace I need to give myself.
And so it's really interesting to have, to have us talk about this because it is those things of when I've, when I've gotten to a point where I know I should engage, [00:18:00] I wanna engage, but I just can't engage. And then I've watched it, I've disengaged long enough to where it's like, oh shit, it's just gonna go way down real hard and I'm not gonna stick my finger out there.
And like we're, we can't even engage anymore. Like I can't stop it if I wanted to. Yeah. And I don't know about you, but for me, I've gotten to a point to where I start recognizing things and now I can see, oh my gosh. What, where am I choosing to step away from and back away from, and who am I choosing to step away from?
And it's kind of scary. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so I hope I, well, I hope that the listeners can take a step back and say, where is this? Am [00:19:00] I burnout? Am I just in the early stages? Am I just holding my shoulders a little bit too tight today? You know, and, um, and, and, you know, kind of look at where they may be and where you might be.
But also, I was told this once, if it, if it happens more than once, you know, a fire drill happens once. Mm-hmm. If it's a fire drill every day, or it's not a fire drill, it's a fire. Mm-hmm. And I think my definition of what a fire is used to be, it's gotta be this all consuming, I have to be way sick, laid out, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But you know, no, it's a fire when it happens every day. Again, I'm at glass every day. Yeah, exactly. And I think sometimes we only take, we only listen when we're on the floor, when we're [00:20:00] on our knees. That preventative care requires that constant checking in and that in itself, if you are already on fumes, that's more energy.
So it's almost like I don't have capacity to have capacity to prevent this, you know what I mean? Because everything, yeah. You know, I don't have capacity to have capacity. Yeah. Well, I definitely felt like that, like Yeah, yeah. No, I totally get it. And I think, I think that is Joe, I'm gonna pick on you. Um, remember how a couple episodes ago we were talking about the expectations and dear wife and the whole emptying the dishwasher true.
And, and it is just, but I'm like, she doesn't have capacity to have capacity to tell you to empty the dishwasher. Like she [00:21:00] doesn't have that capacity. And I think that is if, if you're a male, 'cause I know some guys listen to my podcast as well, but if you wanna show up, that's it. Don't, we don't have capacity anymore.
And um, I was talking to a friend of mine who is a male, is a male, I male friends. And um, and we were talking and he said to me, I know you don't think you need to hear this, but you do. And he is like, it is not, you know, and you don't need to worry about X, Y, and Z. And I was like, because of our friendship, I know I don't need to worry about X, Y, and z.
Just know that's how he shows up. But he was like, he could see, and again, it was because of some stuff that's been going on in the whole year and the, the whole grace giving myself grace thing, he was like, but I need, I need you to hear this. Like, you need to hear this. [00:22:00] You don't think you do, but I need to show up and tell you.
You don't need to worry about this. 'cause I didn't have capacity literally to go, yeah, I'm fine. And oh yeah, I know our friendship is good. No, sometimes we need, a lot of times I need that reinforcement of going, no, you're here. Yeah, no, you got it. Like, I don't have to worry. Like that is one less thing that I'm carrying.
Someone else picked it up and carried it with me. Mm. And I think that's really powerful when you, we show up for our friends like that male or female, but like, when that can happen. And that's what I, I think we structure when we're talking about changing the structure, that's what we're talking about.
Yeah. It's not necessarily just for me anyway, the, the equity in the, in the work, in, in, in how that gets [00:23:00] allocated. But it is the emotional and mental responsibility of, of making sure it gets done. Mm-hmm. Whether it be in your professional world or in your romantic relationship or in your friendships.
That makes sense. It makes complete sense. Yeah, absolutely. Because I think as well, we know there's a huge discrepancy in unseen work, the unseen labor, the unseen emotional labor that women do in relationships. Mm-hmm.
And I, so, so now we're gonna talk about, 'cause I think that brings us to, well, how do you restructure and how do you ask for that? And I can tell you, I talked last time we talked about, or I talked about an example where I had said, I, the system needs to be restructured and this is not, and, and there was some repercussions because I do know that in [00:24:00] business.
For women. There is a, there, it's not a fine line. It's a big, huge line. It's like no one says it exists even, but it is and it does exist that we have to walk between, um, look like we're whining or, and, and we talked about this last time. You, you know, you should be grateful. Beer, you know, it just come on, buck up and go on.
And um, and so one of the things I did last year is I gave a talk on the, the boys club. Mm. Their game. Our rules, your style, meaning, alright, we gotta play. As long as there's there, there's the majority of them in charge. It's their game. Okay. But we're gonna play by our rules and then everybody adds their own style to it.
So in that, I started, 'cause I, I do this in coaching where I work with a lot of women on. What do you wanna say? What do we wanna get across? But then turn it [00:25:00] into male tones, male verbiage, because they are the receivers of the information. Mm. Okay. And I'm more, I, I would love for them to get and put their feelings hat on.
Mm. Um, but I haven't seen a lot of that, especially in the US right now, um, corporate. Um, and more and more it happens. But if I can, and, and an example of this is, you know, I'm feeling really burnout here. We need to work on kind of some of this workload reorganization. If I say that it's very different than if I say, you know what?
If so-and-so picks this task up, I can focus on client strategy, which has a higher ROI. Mm-hmm. Gets the same, potentially even better result. Yeah. And for me, I [00:26:00] liked it because in, for me, in business, I knew how I felt. Yeah. I knew I was burnout, but I also knew that if so-and-so did more or, and, and I'm not talking about shrieking my responsibilities, but just again, equity here, then I could get the high value, which then gave the ROI that my company really wanted in high performing teams and things like that, you know, let's get someone else up to speed on this.
No one needs to be the single point of failure, you know, like distribution. It's different than if I say, oh, I need, I need someone else to step in. Um, you know, let's do a 10 minute check-in because, you know, to catch up on, on load issues, on resource allocation issues. So we don't have a stall out. Mm-hmm.
Those types of phrasings are much more direct. [00:27:00] And again, we're gonna talk about outside of that and in, in relationships, but I think for me, when I'm working in business, it does a lot of things when I take a little bit off of the, and I don't say, Hey, I need a, I need, I'm slammed. If I say, mm-hmm. Hey, this is not good for the team nor my client.
If we have one point and it all goes through here, you know, um, we, or, or a simple thing of we need a slam, we need a snapshot of who slammed, um, no guessing games, let's just all put it out on the table and we have a discussion. Mm-hmm. 'cause then I'm asking everybody else's, what, what's your schedule? What, how's this?
Are you feeling slammed? And then I could throw mine out there too. And it's not just a me thing. It system thing that gets to get addressed. Let's build a process so people don't wait until they're hit, you know, hit the wall to [00:28:00] say something. Yeah. Well that, that process applies to me too. I get to use it.
Mm. So, and, and I just, because it is, it's a really hard place in business to be when you want to not get penalized. Yeah, it is. And I think obviously you have different experiences. To me, in terms of the workplace. I think the observation that I make around burnout and around this kind of paradigm is that as ever in this space, it's on the person.
It's on the, the person carrying the load to fix the systemic issue. It's like asking people of color to fix racism. [00:29:00] It's, it's problematic, but effective. So I, I wanna challenge you because I Please, yeah, yeah. I want us to go here because I, I really think, and that's, that's the thing is because it's not, it's asking, you know, like you said, the people of color to, to fix racism.
Mm-hmm.
I'm not saying it's my responsibility to do that. What I'm saying though is what. What do I do if I, if I, because I, I've gotta say something. No, of course. Yeah. I've gotta, I've gotta raise my hand somehow. Mm. And so my thing isn't, Hey, it's my responsibility to, to change the system. My, my goal is to say, what is the most effective way I can bring this up?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes sense. No, I, I completely, I hear and see the difference, and I do, I recognize that the, the suggestion that you are making and how you are, you are working with this is [00:30:00] the most effective way in which one can, my comment is that it's a shame that the burden falls on you. Oh, yeah.
I mean, oh God. Yeah. And that's the point. And I think my wish for the future is that that infrastructure's in place so that the person that's burning out, you know, it's core. Otherwise it's held by the team. It's not, it's not taking more from you whilst you're in that state. It's in the same way of, um, you know, women carrying car keys to kind of walk down the street at night.
Yeah. So you have to do that. You are carrying your car keys. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, and I, I recognize it's, it's hard. You're carrying your whistle, you're carrying your mace, you're carrying Yeah. And actually you are. Yeah. Physically we're carrying that shit because we feel unsafe because of other people's behavior.
And it's the same, it's necessary and we need it and it's really [00:31:00] smart. But we wish that wasn't the case. And I think that's my comment. Yeah. I totally, I totally agree and it is very, um,
it, it's, it's funny 'cause I was talking to a friend of mine who I. Was going through something and, and I said to him, I said, I think I have a little bit of inkling now of what of which you may, and he's, he's a person, he's, he's a person of color. He is black and towards about racism, where it's like they just don't want you to exist.
Uhhuh your form. Yeah. Because I was going through some something where the, there was nothing I could do that and this person didn't. And it, and, and we get, we had a discussion and it was interesting 'cause he's like, yeah, that's it. And that's too bad. Mm-hmm. Um, but in order for me to get to a point [00:32:00] where change occurs, I have to be part of the change.
And I liken this to when I used to walk down my street and there'd be trash on my sidewalk. And it's like somebody else already put that shit here. Mm-hmm. I walk by it for three days in a row. Now, I guess I can pick it up. How do I pick it up? And then how do I, and then how do I go about saying, Hey, no more trash.
Do I move to a different part? What, what do I do? So that is the thing behind going, okay, how do we change the system? Mm-hmm. Because silence isn't an option. No, fuck you. And walking away isn't always an option. No. And nor should it be, nor should it. And, and it sucks that those are even, like, those are the two options that we teach.
Yeah. We have to have. Exactly. So it's like, how do you, so for, for in, in your case, how have you [00:33:00] been able to go, okay, this is the system. How do I, how do we change it? Is it the conversation with the, the spouse? Is it the conversation with the friend? Is it I need more of this, I need less of this? Yeah. Oh, I think in terms of how I've navigated this, I it's been a big lesson because what I've realized in my experience is that it's those conversations that can in turn, highlight the reason for the chronic burnout.
And in actual fact, it's. It's highlighted to me when I do need to go fuck this, uh, this is not the space because actually you prefer me in a depleted state. Mm-hmm. [00:34:00] You prefer me on my knees rather than helping me get back up. And it's been, um, it's been very revealing as to how I got so burnt out is because, you know, you are giving and you are giving in the workplace, you're giving in the home, you're giving in friendships.
And it's a very few people, or in my circle, it has been very few people that go, Hey, let me hold that or let me half it. And I've had to make some very, some very hard and very firm decisions to go, no, you know what? I'd rather lose this relationship and crawl back up on my own than have you kind of pulling at me.
Mm-hmm. To remain depleted. And I think sometimes you do have to be hard and fast with it because [00:35:00] sometimes it is that, or you, it is the job or your health, it is the relationship or marriage or your wellbeing and your ability to thrive. And it's only after you put that weight down that you can kind of go, oh, shoulders drop a little bit.
Because actually there is not reciprocity
Joe: I found this study, uh, on the [00:36:00] Journal of Applied Psychology about burnout. It's from 2018. And, um, I think what you just said hit on exactly the main point of the study. So basically the couple points are women are more prone to seek help with burnout sooner than men seek it later. Common burnout symptom for women is emotional exhaustion, like you guys talked about.
For men it's depersonalization. Of course this is stereotypical, I mean, everybody's got their own story. Average recovery time with intervention for women is three to six months. Average recovery time with intervention for men is six to 12 months. We're a little slow. But then the main point, kind of recovery without addressing the root cross is never,
Ria: no, it's not recovery.
Yeah, it's never,
Joe: and, uh, that's for both
Ria: and, and that's kind of where I go to of. If we want, if we want to have relationships that don't burn us out, that where we don't, where we don't feel burnout and that don't burn us out, whether they be a work environment, [00:37:00] um, whether they be a marriage, whether they be a friendship, then, you know, the examples that I gave about in the work environment, this is how I can begin the conversation.
And if there's no reciprocity there mm-hmm. Then I get to go, ah, fuck off. Mm-hmm. And go find something else somewhere else. Mm. Um, and things of that like, and, but I'm curious, Joe, if you would indulge us, and if not, you can tell us to bugger off. Um, what, 'cause I know, you know, you have conversations, and again, I don't wanna know all your conversations with your wife or anything, but you guys work on, on different elements of equity.
EEI can't say that word. Say it for me.
Joe: Equity.
Ria: Equity in the relationship and to not have burnout and things of that nature, um, within the relationship. And what, I'm curious from your perspective, how were [00:38:00] those conversations brought up and discussed? And, and again, stop me 'cause I'm, I'm throwing you under the bus, so,
Joe: oh, I don't mind.
Um, I don't mind.
Ria: She might mind but,
Joe: well, she's not gonna come off looking bad. She's the, uh, I think, I think the majority of the time, you know, they come up when things fester or when things are broken, so, you know, you've gotta be careful. Um, I know I need to be careful to not. Like when she's bringing something up, not to make it about me and what I would like to see fixed, but just, you know, hear that
Ria: not the technical side and
Joe: let that, let that be the period and be like, yes, I can see that that is important.
Um, and then if it, if it bugs me, and I know this about me, like sometimes it bugs me when I wanna win an argument, but it doesn't actually bug me. So I'll try to wait like a couple days a week and then try to circle back in a time where we're not fighting and bring, um, so that it doesn't feel like a direct response.
Mm-hmm. Because it's [00:39:00] really not otherwise. 'cause it really is, most of the time it's not. It's just me trying to win a fight. Mm-hmm. You know, most of the time it goes away. I'm just being, I don't know, dramatic. Um, and uh, I would say that I wish that it were. I feel like it's healthy. Uh, I don't think we do anything perfect.
You know, we get in, we get in arguments about silly stuff that's not about the thing, you know? Mm-hmm. It's when it's about the silly thing. It's not the thing that it's about. And so, you know, you try to learn. Over the years, some of the things I've learned from early on, we've been married 25 years now, is uh, you know, I used to do dumb stuff.
Like when she'd be like, nah, just, just leave me alone for a minute. I'd be like, no, we have to fix it. That was dumb.
Ria: Oh yeah.
Joe: Learn how to stop that. So familiar. Um, sometimes like. She would tell me a lot when we were first married. Like, you know, I just need to sleep on it and then I'm fine. And that was kind of her way of telling me like what I was just saying, like mm-hmm.
And you triple back, she's trying to fight the [00:40:00] urge to win an argument or whatever mm-hmm. Is going on in her mind. And she's like, just lemme sleep on it. And I was like, no, I can't go to bed mad. And uh, yeah, I wasn't Right. And um, you know, so I think, does that answer your question?
Ria: It does. And I guess what I'm trying to figure out here is how do we build a better structure that's more supportive?
And I think how do we voice that, that a structure needs to be built in whatever relationship or platform or area.
Joe: Yeah.
Ria: And then how do we go about building that structure? Um, because I think, again, if it's never addressed, like, like the study shows and like Bria and I have talked about, you don't ever recover.
Yeah. Well, I, yeah, I think, I think what the recurring theme here is, is that it's about repairing a thing. It's not about allocating blame or, you know, I mean, how many [00:41:00] times has it been like, oh, you did this and you did that, you know, you did this or you said that. And we never getting to the bit that either party, whether it be in business or whether it be in relationships, actually needs, and we're all both losing energy on either side.
We're both burning. You're in that cycle. Exactly. And nobody wins. And you have to be able to see it for what it is, which is absolute garbage at the bo at the end of the day. It's ego, isn't it? It's not about anybody's wellbeing or the business's wellbeing. It's, you know, who, who's more right or less wrong.
Mm-hmm. Um, so I think it's about remembering that healthy people do better. In relationships at work. And actually we all benefit from being able to show up well in every area of our lives. You know, how much better would a business do if everyone showed up at a hundred percent?
Joe: Yeah. Joe, I was gonna say, I [00:42:00] noticed, um, like my to-do list you guys early on in the episode, Christine, you were talking about, you know, you sometimes can categorize your level of burnout based on your ever-growing to-do list.
My to-do list, I keep on a sheet of paper next to my desk and it's all work stuff and all the home stuff is mental, but I know my wife's to-do list has everything on it. Mm-hmm. And so like I look at my to-do list and get overwhelmed that I've kind of just com, com compartmentalize. When I'm at work I'm just worrying about work stuff or trying to anyhow.
But that doesn't mean I don't have other responsibilities. But, so I think, like you were saying, so how do you kind of move the ball forward? Like, I know when my wife is stressed at work. I try to make a conscious effort to not do the extra things that frustrate her. Like yesterday I knew she was, she was having a day, so I was like, instead of saying, what do you want for dinner?
I said, I'm bringing home dinner. Mm. What do you want? What do you want? What do the kids want? Or like, I texted the kids and
Ria: that's what we're talking about holding the glass. Mm. Because I guarantee you [00:43:00] she was thinking about that at work. Yeah. You know, which is like, you're looking at your to-do list.
Well, in, in mine it's this. And then I told you, and in the episode before, it's like about two o'clock where I was, holy shit, what do we have in the fridge? And then I spend time mentally going through what's in the fridge now. We had that yesterday. No, I don't have this God's, they even like that recipe.
Oh shit. Then I gotta go to the grocery store. Oh, I've got a meeting. Oh, I gotta prep again. And, and I think that is where we start talking about changing the structure is. I don't need to remind you to do what you said you were going to do. Oh, mm-hmm. That goes off my to-do list. Um, go ahead. Yeah, but also, how much, how much easier is it to show up for your to-do list when you feel nourished?
Because a lot of evidence shows actually it's, you don't have to change your output. And we talked about this. Mm-hmm. You have to increase your [00:44:00] input. And I think in adult life, in business and relationships, where's the fun? Because that actually is what fills you up to be able to navigate all of that serious stuff.
Like, you know, you've got 12 things on your to-do list, but if you're showing up after laughing for half an hour with someone, how much easier is it to get through the day? How much easier is it when you feel good and someone's pouring in, or you are pouring in, you know, it doesn't, this feels lighter because you are lighter.
So it's not always about fixing the structure, it's about filling up so that this side of it is easier. You know, and I might, I might ref, well, I'm going to, and you tell me what you think of this. I think it is about the structure. Mm-hmm. But what I think is that what you do is you add that to the structure.
Yes. That's what I mean, the [00:45:00] fun into the structure. An example of this was I have, I have these little tips that I give people and, and when I, when, when you're having shitty days at work, like, just absolute shitty days, and I have, you know, me and my mugshots, there's a reason why some of my mugshots are the way that they are about work and, and is there armory and they're funny, but like I will do a.
Five minute, and I used to do this at work, a five minute Google search on stupid things bosses say, and images or whatever. And that's one where I found my, one of my favorite quotes is everyone needs a high five with a chair against, you know, upside the head. You know, I mean mm-hmm. But I would go on there and for five minutes I would literally be at Mount Mo Witson and I would literally make sure that I had five minutes where I'd go, okay, I'm just gonna watch stupid work videos, funny things, whatever that got me.[00:46:00]
Breathing and, and then I learned how to put breathing with that and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. Because I'm so wound so tight that I couldn't just watch work videos I needed, I also needed to incorporate breathing mechanisms. But again, I think that is part of the structure mm-hmm. Is part I calm road bumps and, and caches that I put in my life, which is, you know, Joe, let's take that to the next level.
Why don't you text her at two o'clock and say, Hey, you want me to, you know, pick up dinner tonight? Mm. Like, like, or, and then add some fun, you know, or whatever. But I think that's what I'm getting at is that all those things that replenish us should be part of that structure. Yes. They should be built in, because that's not even to me that that may be part of recovery.
Um, but it's definitely part of sustainability. Yeah, absolutely. So. I don't know. This is, this is interesting. So now [00:47:00] my question to you is what are some things that when we are kind of coming from that state of burnout, you know, I've got certain things that I do, but I'm curious what you, um, do from whether it be, you know, breathing movement, you know, just different things that you've seen have helped people replenish, not just during it Yeah.
But they can add to their structure. Yeah. Um, in terms of full blown burnout, I've got my own experience. And then also I've worked with a lot of women through that process and it's a long one. My number one kind of, um, takeaway and what I think's really imperative is at the point of burnout. Stop trying to fix your burnout.
Mm-hmm. And that might [00:48:00] sound contradictory and people have a lot of resistance to that. But if you are still trying, you are still burning. You need to sink into it. You need to just let it take you. And that can be really hard and it can be very depressive in some ways, but it's completely required for the nervous system because otherwise you're holding onto the fumes and you're gonna, it's gonna get you, it's gonna get, you let it, because that's the only way through it, you've gotta go through the fire to recover.
And
Christine: I,
Ria: if I'm hearing you right, what I hear is typically I hear somebody say, you gotta let it take you. And it's like, oh. But it's almost like you just go, yeah, I'm done. That's it. I am done. I'm thoughtlessly. I need. I need you to pick up the whole fucking load broker. Let it, yeah. You need to just drop it and stop negotiating with it.
Yes. Stop [00:49:00] negotiations with your body. And that looks like different things to different people. But for me, sometimes it looks like, okay, I'm done. Like literally we shut it down. Yeah. I did a episode on, on where it was just, I was doing someone was coaching me, grace was coaching me. She's like, can you put it down for five minutes?
Mm. And then we got up to like half a day, you know, can you just stop? Yeah. Stop. Yeah. And in AA they call it hungry, angry, lonely and tired. Yeah. You know? But how hard, and typically, I dunno if this is the other side of that, is typically I, the harder it is for me to stop. The closer I am to being on absolute fumes.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And so I think the first stage of recovering from burnout is to accept burnout. Rest. Rest. Then you can move towards, [00:50:00] I would say, reclaiming. So what bits can you start to add back into your life, but only the bits that fill you? So where do you find joy in your work or in your relationship or in your life?
Just a little bit that goes, oh, that I feel. About that. Because if you're stuck in the rest for too long, you can get hopeless. You can get more lost because we need meaning. And I think meaning's really important when it comes to burnout. Because if you don't find meaning in what you are doing, you're gonna burn out faster.
'cause you don't know why you are doing it other than to pay your bills. And I don't think that's enough motivation for anybody in the soul or the spirit to actually get through, you know? Mm-hmm. And then I would say the bit after reclaiming is the releasing 'cause we are gonna be a bit fucked off. We're gonna be a bit [00:51:00] resentful as to why we got to that stage and who let us down.
And also that we let ourselves down. Yeah. In that, I think that's a big part of it. And that needs to be thrown away. So my, my thing with that is vocalizing, it's shaking, it's physical release and removal from the body. Um, in order to be able to let that go, and then you can move towards rising back up.
You know, we've gone through this process. We've made those adaptations, we've figured out what lights us up, what doesn't. We've grieved it, we've been angry about it, we've been really fucked off about it, and then we can come back out more knowledgeable and doing things that will prevent that and will sustain us.
Like you've said, one thing that I've seen over, over in, sometimes in my life, I've done, I know I've done it. I've also [00:52:00] coached women in it where we go through burnout, we're not fulfilled. Um, we don't find the meaning, but we, we heal, we start to add a little things that, that make us happy back, but we don't take that final step in going, I'm gonna go get fulfilled.
I'm gonna go get meaning. I'm going to do, yeah. It's scary. We step back onto or into maybe a different job. It may be a different cycle, but it's really not there. And so again, it may have some of it, and it takes, and I'll be honest, I'm giving myself some gray here too, because it took me a long time to figure out what that fulfillment was, because that was a whole nother journey.
But it's almost like, again, you take a vacation and you go, God, I needed that vacation. Mm-hmm. Okay. Now I come back, I clearheaded, I set my business plan, I set this and dah, blah, blah. And it's like. Is that what you should be? Should you be coming back to that [00:53:00] uhhuh? It may not be the big thing. Or, or should you take that, you know, again, whether it's the relationship or, you know, again, it's the structure.
Is it the structure? Is there fixable or is this, we need a new structure and mm-hmm. For me, I've seen time, 'cause I, I was in the industry a long time and again, gave me lots of things, but could I have left earlier? Mm-hmm. And been more fulfilled and prevented some things from happening that did, yeah. Oh yeah.
This reminds me of a piece of research I read recently, which is around Dharma Ikigai, um, fulfillment, and they call it the shadow occupation. Mm-hmm. It's the people who have the jobs, for example, um, choir master in a church who wants to be a priest. They're in the church, they're in the [00:54:00] environment, and they're this close to being what they want to be, but proximity to what you want to be actually makes you more depressed.
Mm-hmm. Because you can see the thing, but you are not. In the square of it. Mm-hmm. You know, it's not like you're a gardener. You are Right. Close to fulfillment. You can almost taste it. You are sitting at the table eating all the food and you're damn hungry. Exactly. You're still thirsty from drinking, you know?
Exactly. So you're nodding.
Joe: Yeah, I was gonna, I'll just get a little vulnerable here. I, I went through burnout with, uh, the last job I was at, and here's the, here's the challenge that you guys are, here's the challenge that I felt that was just like this. It felt like it was a cycle, right? And so I think for a lot of people, the answer is job change.
It ended up being job change for me, but so, all right. So I start going through burnout, and then because of the symptoms of burnout, like depersonalization, not caring [00:55:00] as much as I used to, I become less good at my job. Oh. And so then that increases the pressure from my management. Yeah. And so then lovingly, they were like, Hey, you should take some time off.
And I'm like, I don't know if that's gonna fix it. Mm-hmm. Because I'm straight out of FS at this point. And, uh, and so it's, it's a weird thing because back to like that idea of like, you wanna blame somebody, I realized I wanted to get pissed at an organization.
Ria: Yeah, the
Joe: organization, I can't anthropomorphize the organization.
It can't apologize to me. Um, you know, I could maybe get mad at some people there and seek an apology. Um, but I really wasn't mad at some people there. I was more mad at the system. Yeah. The tructure
Ria: in the authorizing environment,
Joe: and I'm dense, so it took me a long fricking time to figure this out before I actually left.
But I feel like that's, it's another unfortunate thing of burnout is that being burned out, then you get the added pressure of [00:56:00] your management. I'm talking about at work or maybe even relationships. Now you're, you're underperforming. Just you're underperforming, whether it be at anything. Yeah. And so now you actually deserve the pressure.
Ria: Mm-hmm.
Joe: Eventually be let go, which is gonna piss you off more because you're like, but it's your fault that I'm in this situation. Yeah. It's a, it's a tough cycle.
Ria: And I think when we talk about the cycle, it's one of those things when we start to. You know, when we start to have the conversations about changing the structure, you are able to see by the response of it as, like you said, Joe, they gave you time off, but you're like, I don't think that's gonna work.
Mm-hmm. I don't think that's the fix. Whereas some people might go, yeah, that's the fix, but it not be the fix because they're not in the right job for fulfillment purposes. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's, and I I'm saying all this to let you know, to, to let the listeners know this is hard shit. Yeah. I mean, it's not just, you are gonna go, you're gonna fix your structure [00:57:00] and everything's gonna be okay.
You are gonna go and maybe figure out that you need to go to a different structure. Well, then you gotta figure out, well, is that structure going to support me or am I gonna end up fucking burnout here? Or what the hell? You know, for me it was, oh my God, I'm 54. Well, I was younger. Younger. I was like 51, 52.
I am going, I'm really fucking unhappy. What the hell does that mean? Mm-hmm. I don't know where to go. I don't know how, I know this structure's not gonna fixed, be fixed to, to support me. And so I'm gonna be burnout and I know that I don't know where else to go and what does fulfillment look like at, at this age and, and how does it work?
And so I say that because the pure fact, if you're listening to this podcast, the pure fact that you're listening to it and you're considering your level of burnout and taking an inward look at that [00:58:00] and knowing that it's there, knowing that it's not you to be fixed, it's, it's a bigger system that you're involved in.
Is is enough to start. And that's like enough, like you get credit for that. Mm-hmm. And I guess I just kinda wanted to take a step back because I, I, I was sitting here listening to Joe and I was listening to you and then I was thinking about all this stuff that I've gone through and it's not, and we're gonna come up with things and I hate it when my podcast, 'cause if Joe, if it ever happens, smack me.
Um, because it isn't about the five fucking things that we do to change this stuff right now. That's the part about it being life. Yeah. Is you gotta live it, you gotta try it on and you gotta go, does this fucking work? And by the time that I realize stuff, it's like been happening like a long time, you know?
Until you just said that.
Joe: [00:59:00] Yeah. I think, you know, back to that study we quoted, once you, I identify the root thing for men, it still takes six months to a year. I think it took me two to recover and I thought as soon as I leave the job, I'd be like, done. Burn, not burned out. I was like, Nope. Still burnt out.
Ria: Yeah. And, and, and again, it is confusing. I mean, people, I, I think it's so funny how. What do you wanna be when you grow up? Yeah, no, a lot happy. I wanna like, like, you know, I wanna breathe, you know, I wanna, I wanna matter. And, and then you, how do you change, how do you turn that into an occupation? And, and how do you, um, work within a system?
And then how do you deal with patriarchy? And then how do you deal with relationships and, you know, so, I mean, it's not a simple answer. No, but it's not something I also wanna say. It's not a simple answer, but it is also not something that you have to [01:00:00] carry. No. It can be something you get to explore. Yeah.
If done well and you know, with care. And if you do it badly, like I tend to do, just fucking, hang on. But hang on to yourself. I don't mean hang on to it or this, but just keep telling yourself, I, I wrote a, some, some stuff today about I am enough, and you heard me say that, you know, be where your feet are at.
Look at your feet and, and go right here, right now. Every dinner's not done. This isn't right. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This has to go out. These things need to be filed. But right here, right now, I'm enough. And so, you know, but find those things. Find, identify, explore, find the structure. How does it need to change?
Does the whole structure need to change? And if so, you know, it's like the, the Jen Wigmore song, HBIC. It's like, [01:01:00] you know, we're not, I make my own damn rules. Okay, well then what makes me happy? What, what should the rules be? Because that's a whole nother exploration, but go explore it. Mm-hmm. And then start to find ways to heal and replenish your body.
Start listening to it. You know, just start doing some of those things with a desire to seek. Um, and with I say this and I'm smiling. For those of you that can't see me, I'm saying it with a smile because it's like, without a timeline, give yourself that grace. Exactly. It's that phrase, Christine, I'm sure you've heard it, is the body keeps the score.
Mm-hmm. But I heard an adaptation recently, which was the body keeps the score, but what if the spirit overbites it? And I really liked that because I was like, there's redemption there. Like your body might be tired. [01:02:00] Actually, there's a way more to it than that. And I think it kind of encompasses what we're talking about.
Find that meaning, find what lights you up and run with that. You know? 'cause that's what's gonna keep it sustainable. And whether that be in a relationship, whether and romantic your children, your, your auntie, you just, whatever friendships, whether that be at work. Um, because again, all we get to keep is what we share.
And, and I, I don't know, again, everything that I've taken and I have, I have benefited from my career. I have completely benefited from it. Um, but the things that I value the most are the relationships that I, that I've had, and those have helped me in my darkest times. Mm-hmm. Um, as I've transitioned from burnout or as I've [01:03:00] transitioned into new things and rewritten structures and, and, um, done that.
So Wow. Today was an interesting segment. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and just so you know, it started off where it took us about 20, 30 minutes just to get on online. 'cause we couldn't, it was, it was funny. We were trying all sorts of shit. I even, I was advising Joe on technical stuff, which, stupid. Oh gosh. Yeah. Um, but
Joe: sorry, a overlords.
I love the internet.
Ria: That's right. We need to get our, oh, those, those things in there so they'll, they'll show up. But no, seriously, I, this has been a good segment for me and, um, I, I hope that my listeners have enjoyed it. And the one thing, or a few things I wanna leave everybody with is, you know, again, look at your last couple weeks.
And, and take your average amount of of [01:04:00] replenishing time and see how much, and, and then start looking and going, okay, if I'm not replenishing again, where can the system take a little bit off? Where can the system take a little bit off? And, and then how do you voice that? And then start looking at whether the system needs to be there or not.
Or you need a new system. Mm-hmm. New authorizing environment, but get back, like r said, the autonomy. Mm-hmm. Your choice and, and know that you have choices. Mm. You may not like your options. I was told this by person A, you may not like your options, Christine, but you got options. Yeah. And while that is, it comes back on me, I.
That's also a very powerful thing because if I have the headache, I can [01:05:00] take the aspirin. Mm-hmm. And that means, again, it's a system that needs to change. Not necessarily me, but I can say to the system, it needs to change. I don't want that system. I want a new system. Mm-hmm. And I want it to change with my input.
It should always have my input. Mm. Does that make sense? It does make sense. Because it, at the end of the day, it has to work for you. So it, it, it requires it and it will be different for everybody. And I think what I would say is don't make those choices whilst you're burnt out. Because the thing about burnout is that, at least for me, I was not in a position to make smart choices.
And that's where it helps to have people around you going like, you know, maybe to just. Just sit for a bit, you know? Well, I'll pick up dinner. Exactly. I'll pick up [01:06:00] dinner. Or I've made it whilst you were doing your thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got you covered here. Hmm. You need to hear this. I'm, you know. Yeah, because you're weak, you need to hear so your soul feels full.
Yeah, exactly. So with that, ladies and gentlemen, I thank you for joining us and until next time, tubs,