Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

How to be a skilled conversationalist in work, love, and life.

Whether you’re trying to build a romantic or professional connection, Rachel Greenwald’s advice is exactly the same. “Focus on how you make someone feel more than you focus on the words that you're saying,” she says. 
As a professional coach, Greenwald helps people develop better communication skills, from executives in the business world to singles in the dating world. Building deep connections may at times be challenging, but as Greenwald says, it’s ultimately not complicated. “You're demonstrating that you're interested in someone and that you like them,” she says.
In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Greenwald and host Matt Abrahams discuss relationship-building tactics like small talk, active listening, communication blindspots, and more.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (04:08) - Don’t Be a Data Collector
  • (07:34) - How to Start and End Small Talk
  • (12:21) - Romance vs. Work Communication
  • (15:42) - The Role of Humor and Light Banter
  • (18:28) - Conversation Pitfalls
  • (24:33) - The Final Three Question
  • (30:19) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Rachel Greenwald
Matchmaker & Dating Coach, Executive Fellow at Harvard Business School, Author

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: Think about
your closest friends.

Not the virtual online ones, but the
people you see in your everyday real life.

How did you meet?

I bet at least one or more of your
friends you first met through small talk.

Through small talk, big things happen.

Yet many of us dread these conversations.

Today we're going to open up the
vault and explore interpersonal

communication and conversations
that allow us to connect, learn, and

grow, with my guest Rachel Greenwald.

Rachel teaches us valuable, practical
skills, like how to focus on being

interested, not interesting, along
with how to exit small talk gracefully.

I invite you to enjoy this Think
Fast Talk Smart Rethinks episode.

Forming relationships
can be very challenging.

At work, in our personal
lives, in our romantic lives.

Today, let's learn some skills to help us.

I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach
Strategic Communication at Stanford

Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

I am super excited today to
speak with Rachel Greenwald.

Rachel is an executive fellow at Harvard
Business School, and interestingly, a

professional matchmaker and dating coach.

She's an expert on communication
and relationship building

in work, love, and life.

At Stanford University, she's co-taught
a seminar with past guest Tina Seelig at

the d.school called Designing for Love.

She also guest lectures with two of
our other previous guests, Alison

Wood Brooks and Naomi Bagdonas.

Welcome Rachel, thanks for being here.

Rachel Greenwald: Hi Matt.

I am so excited for
our conversation today.

Matt Abrahams: I am too.

Let's go ahead and jump right in.

You help people build relationships
in two very different arenas.

You coach executives in the
business world, and you coach

singles in the dating world.

What have you learned about one
of the most challenging aspects

of relationship building, small
talk, that applies to both worlds?

And how do you make small talk
feel more comfortable when meeting

someone at work or on a date?

Rachel Greenwald: One big thing that
I've learned about creating successful

small talk, both at work and on dates, is
simply this, don't be a data collector.

So what I mean by that is like
asking where are you from?

What do you do?

How many siblings do you have?

That is all so boring to
ask and boring to answer.

Well, in all my research, I just
really discovered again and again that

boredom is the enemy of small talk.

So many people default to
those predictable data exchange

topics, so no wonder everybody
hates small talk or dreads it.

So your goal instead should just
try to be intriguing so that someone

wants to lean in and get to know you.

I always say that in the space between the
expected and the unexpected lies intrigue.

If you wanna be intriguing, you have
to ask better questions, and you

have to give better answers when
someone asks you a boring question.

So I'll try to think of an example here.

Like if you're on a first date
and someone asks you a boring data

collection question, like what do you do?

Always what everybody
asks the first thing.

So instead of just stating the facts
like I'm an engineer, you could turn it

into an intriguing guessing game that
could sound something like, what do I do?

Well, let me give you two
clues and see if you can guess.

I had to get a master's degree for
it, and it usually involves avocados.

So that's a very unexpected answer, right?

It's intriguing, and what I like
best about it is that it immediately

signals to the other person this
is not going to be your standard,

boring, small talk exchange.

It's gonna be much more
enjoyable and, and memorable.

It's just a better
conversation for both people.

Matt Abrahams: I wanna know what
kind of engineer uses avocados.

You've definitely got me intrigued.

But this notion of engaging and
building intrigue applies not

just in the dating world, but I
think in all of our interactions.

When we talk at work about a project we're
on, rather than just giving the facts as

you suggest, we could make it intriguing.

We could share the
potential value it brings.

I really, really like that idea.

And it helps us, as communicators,
reframe the whole purpose.

Because as you said, so many of
us dread small talk and if, if it

becomes an opportunity to engage
and intrigue someone that all of a

sudden makes it much more interesting.

Rachel Greenwald: Yeah, absolutely.

Just don't try to collect
data about the other person.

Just try to think that, how would I like
to spend these next few minutes myself?

I'm sure the other person
feels the same way.

Let's try to make this fun and intriguing.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

When it comes to small talk, Rachel,
in particular, I find it, and I

know many people find the initiation
of the small talk and how you get

out of the small talk, how you
end it, to be really challenging.

Can you share ways you coach
people to start and end small talk?

Rachel Greenwald: Sure.

Absolutely.

The, the start and the, the
ending are the toughest part.

So if you're someone that struggles
with initiating small talk, it's

probably because you're worried about
finding that intriguing question

like we were just talking about.

So if that's your obstacle, then
I'd say just forget about asking

a question entirely, take that
pressure away, and instead think

about simply making an observation
about something in your environment.

So an observation is essentially a
bid for connection, and it can create

a feeling of instant familiarity,
like sort of a conspiratorial

vibe, just between two people.

So what's an example?

Like you could say to someone standing
next to you at a networking event, you

know, hey, that brownie over there on
the buffet should have a big sign that

comes with it that says, this requires
seventy-five minutes on the Peloton.

You know something, just any observation.

It doesn't have to be funny, but just
something about your mutual environment

can create a space where the two of
you can smile about something right in

front of you before launching into the
business of getting to know each other.

So that's the beginning of
the small talk exchange that I

would suggest to make it easier.

And that ending is super important also.

I use actually in, in coaching both my
daters and my executives at work, I use

this technique that I call the white flag.

And the white flag is something
that people who know, race car

driving will probably recognize.

The white flag in a race car situation
is where somebody stands at the finish

line as the cars are going around and
around, and the person with a white

flag, right before the last lap of the
race, will throw down the white flag.

And that says the race is almost
over, but there's one more lap.

So, for example, like if you're at a
function, a party, whatever, you could

say to somebody towards the end as you're
trying to wrap up your conversation, you

could say, before I go get a drink, I
have one last question because it was so

great hearing about your trip to Alaska.

I wonder if you have a favorite
hike to recommend in Anchorage, just

in case I get out there one day.

So then you listen to what they recommend,
their favorite hike, and then as

you're walking away, you say something
like, I really enjoyed talking to you,

and by the way, I love your shoes.

So this is something that's
important to remember.

That ending small talk is something in
social psychology that is called the

recency effect, where people will rate
and experience more positively if the

last part of the experience is pleasant.

So ending your conversation with
this tactic, like I have one last

question and then giving a compliment,
a sincere compliment of course, as

you're walking away, it just makes
someone feel like you were genuinely

listening to them, and oh, by the
way, you admired something about them.

Matt Abrahams: When you first said
white flag, I thought you meant

surrendering, like I'm giving up.

But, but I, I do know auto racing
and I do know the white flag analogy.

I really like that idea.

I, I can totally see how I could
use that in conversation to

say, I need to go over there.

I need to go do this, but before I
do, I'd like to learn one more thing.

I think that's a wonderful technique,
and really reminding everybody of the

recency effect that is how we feel at
the end of an interaction really matters.

So doing something at the end that's
positive, I think is great, rather than

that awkwardness that many of us feel
where we just say I need something more

to drink and step away from the person.

I really appreciate that advice and I
have an upcoming social event for work and

I'm gonna use that technique right away.

In terms of starting, I like
that idea of finding some kind of

common ground or common connection.

I can imagine at a work function,
talking about a keynote speaker or, or

a certain goal that was just discussed
as a way of getting people to initiate

that conversation and together be working
towards getting the conversation moving.

So very, very helpful.

I took copious notes on what you just
said and, and hope to put them into

practice in the very near future.

I know you and I talked about this once
when we first met each other, Rachel, when

I was in grad school, I published research
on flirtation and relationship initiation.

This is a topic that really fascinated
me then and still fascinates me

now, and it was also really helpful
because I met my wife while I was

studying flirtation in grad school.

Now, as a matchmaker, you help many
people initiate and start relationships.

What advice do you give daters
about effective communication?

And is there different advice you
give people who are seeking romantic

partners versus those who are looking for
platonic and professional relationships?

Rachel Greenwald: Matt, it
is exactly the same advice in

romantic or professional context.

It's not different at all, and the
advice is simply to focus on how you

make someone feel more than you focus
on the words that you're saying.

So that's reminiscent of that Maya
Angelou quote where everyone knows this

quote, I'm sure, but people will forget
what you said, forget what you did, but

never forget how you made them feel.

So instead of, for example, trying to
impress someone with your own stories

or your credentials, you wanna lean
into their stories, their credentials,

and make them feel smart or feel
funny, or even just feel accepted

instead of judged, which is how most
people walk around feeling every

day, is that everyone's judging them.

So you could have comments like
somebody tells you something and say

something, I don't know, like, wow, I
never would've thought of doing that.

How'd you come up with that idea?

So comments have to be genuine
though, like that's really important.

You can't fake interest in someone.

People can smell a fake, a mile away.

So try to have in your head this mantra
that in every gathering, every person

in this room has something to teach me,
and then your interest and leaning into

their stories will feel more genuine.

You mentioned the word flirtation in
your question and whether you use the

word flirtation in a dating context or
whether you label it something different

in a work context like relationship
initiation, it's basically the same thing.

You're demonstrating that you're
interested in someone and that you

like them, and it's the universal
truth that most people will

like you if you like them first.

Matt Abrahams: I really like that
advice, and as I was listening to

you, I was reminded of my, my late
mother-in-law was an expert at small

talk and getting to know people.

When she would come to visit, she would
have to fly and the first half hour

of our conversations when she would
arrive would be about all the new

friends she made on the flight over.

And she had used, what I heard,
one of the techniques you were

talking about was genuine curiosity.

She was very interested in people
and really liked getting to know

people, and you could feel that.

And her superpower was being able
to ask the question, tell me more.

I'd like to learn more.

What more can you tell me about that?

And she would use that all the time to
really get conversations going and to

signal that she was really interested.

So I really appreciate what you
said and, and I wish we would've

known each other back when I was
in grad school studying this.

You would've helped me really hone in on
the things I was interested in studying.

You work closely at times with some
of our most popular previous guests,

Alison Wood Brooks, and Naomi Bagdonas.

My interviews with them looked into
humor and I'm curious to get your take

on using humor in conversations, in our
personal lives and our professional lives.

Rachel Greenwald: To me, the word
humor is always stressful, and

I think it is to a lot of people
too, because it feels daunting.

Like there's this pressure to be funny.

So I, and, and I don't think of
myself as a funny person, so I

try to rephrase that word humor
and I coach people on specifically

using light banter in conversation.

Which to me, it just sounds much
easier, less pressure felt, and

it really accomplishes the same
goal, which is to lighten the mood.

So for example, we talked earlier
about finding observations in your

environment that are unexpected or
playful, and I think that's a great

starting point for light banter.

Observations, it could be something
like standing in a crowded room and

you turn to the person next to you
and you say something like, I'm, I'm

loving that woman's sweater over there.

It's so Madonna circa 1985.

Or just something, it
doesn't have to be funny.

It's just sort of a light comment.

But as you bring up humor, I also wanna
caution people that there's a dark

side to using humor in conversations.

Most people don't think about humor
in any negative way, but it really

can be if it's used incorrectly.

So I conducted a ten year dating
research project where I compiled a list

of thirteen bad conversation habits.

And one of the bad habits I
found I called the comedian.

And the comedian is someone in
conversation who gets a lot of

laughs 'cause they have jokes
or they are self-deprecating.

And at first that's fun, but soon your
conversation partner might crave a deeper

connection than just all the laughs.

And someone who's the comedian
can use their humor like a shield,

and your conversation partner
can't penetrate that shield, which

will feel frustrating to them.

You sort of feel like as the conversation
partner, you're an audience kept

to a distance from the performer.

And the comedian always reminds
me of crashing after a sugar high

if you eat too much chocolate.

You might just suddenly afterwards
feel tired or unsatisfied.

And so you have to remember that the goal
of communication is to create connection

and make a favorable impression.

So obviously you don't want someone
to feel like talking to you is

exhausting because you're using humor
too much in your communication style.

Matt Abrahams: I find the first
point you made to be really true.

When we try to be funny, it
just invokes so much stress.

So I like your reframing of,
hey, this is just light banter,

and that takes pressure off.

And by taking pressure off, I
think it frees us up to actually

be funnier and more connecting.

I am really curious to know, you said you
found thirteen bad conversation habits.

Can you just share with us two or
three more beyond the comedian?

Rachel Greenwald: Yeah, absolutely.

One of the most common bad habits people
have was something I called the mirror,

and the mirror is the dynamic where
whatever you say, the other person has

a similar story to mirror back to you.

Like, oh wow, same thing happened to me.

Just waiting their turn politely until
you stop speaking so they can reflect

on their own relatable experience.

And that's understandable 'cause, I
think, we're taught when you're younger or

maybe even in some kind of sales training
programs, they teach you that you're

supposed to find a point of connection
where you can relate to somebody.

But actually I find it to be the opposite.

I find that the mirror habit can
deflate conversational energy or make

it feel choppy so the exchange can feel
superficial and you don't feel heard.

There's all sorts of other ones
like the interrupter, somebody who's

just interrupting you before you
can finish your sentence and they

try to finish your sentence for you.

They're sure they already know
what they're gonna say, so they

have that dirty four letter
word dynamic going on, the KNOW.

And the other person just feels annoyed.

They don't feel heard.

So all these conversation bad habits
are really about the feeling you

create in your conversation partner.

So whether you're trying to be the one
upper or you're the humble bragger,

or any of these thirteen types that
I found, you are doing yourself a

disservice because you're almost
trying to impress the other person.

Like I can understand why they're
behaving the way they are, but the

end result is that your conversation
partner doesn't feel good talking to you.

Matt Abrahams: Thank
you for sharing those.

And as you were going through each
of those bad communication behaviors,

I saw in my mind's eye people who do
those skills and how they make me feel.

And the, the meta message of what I
heard you share, Rachel, is that we

constantly have to be thinking about
how we're making our conversation

partners, our coworkers, the people
we're interested in dating, feel.

And not so much focus on our particular
goal in that moment, which is to share

my story as soon as you share yours,
and that is a wonderful reminder of

what makes for effective communication.

Be focused on the needs of
the person you're talking to.

Before we end, I'd like to ask you the
same three questions I ask everyone.

Are you up for that, Rachel?

Rachel Greenwald: Yeah, I'd love it.

Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

I'm excited to hear your answers.

If you were to capture the best
communication advice you've ever received

as a five to seven word presentation
slide title, what would it be?

Rachel Greenwald: I would call this
slide title, everyone knows it but you.

What I mean by that is that you
have a communication blind spot,

but you don't know what it is.

Everyone else knows and you don't.

So maybe you even have more than one
blind spot, but people are terrible

judges of their own communication skills.

They either overestimate
or underestimate them.

They have no idea how someone
feels when talking to you.

So you're the last to know
unless you ask for feedback.

So this advice is all about trying to
get feedback, and it's true in dating

and friendship and business, anything.

Matt Abrahams: I didn't know where
you were gonna take your slide

title, but I love the point that
we have to seek out feedback.

We are not the best observers
of our own communication.

So for question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

Rachel Greenwald: For that question,
I am going to pick someone kind of out

of the standard communication arena and
point to someone named Priya Parker, who

some of you may know, others may not.

She's the author of a book that
is one of my all time favorites

called The Art of Gathering.

And her work focuses on
reimagining how we spend our time

together to create more meaning.

So she's not specifically in the
field of communication, but she talks

a lot about setting the tone for
a gathering before it even begins.

And this is a point on the continuum
of communication that I think

doesn't get enough attention.

And I call that point the
pre-communicating point, which is

the idea that communication actually
begins in subtle ways, even before

you're in the same space with someone.

And space could be in person, or
like you mentioned earlier, it

could be a digital space like Zoom.

And even email or text.

So space is broadly defined,
but Priya Parker advocates that

it's important to set the tone
before you interact with someone.

So is your upcoming conversation or your
meeting going to be fun, or do you want

it to be serious, or is the emphasis
on being productive, whatever it is.

So if you think about all the
communication that happens before a

business meeting, like calendar invites,
or even the first few minutes in a

Zoom window as people are logging on
before the meeting begins, what if

you created a clever title for the
calendar invite, or what if you played

a theme song on Zoom for the first
sixty seconds that reflects whatever

your intended mood is for this meeting.

I really like her because I think
in the big picture, you can have

the best communication skills on the
planet, but if people aren't primed

to come in being receptive to you,
it's just really a missed opportunity.

Matt Abrahams: I really like Priya's work.

I've read the book, I've heard
her speak, and this notion of

setting the table, if you will,
priming people is really important.

We had a wonderful discussion with
Robert Cialdini about what he calls

pre-suasion, how you actually get people
in the right space for you then to make

the influence requests that you have.

We don't spend enough time thinking
about the context for the communication

that we're about to have and
highlighting Priya Parker's work

reminds us that we need to do that.

Rachel Greenwald: We are going back
to social psychology again, and if

you think about the primacy effect.

So the primacy effect is that people
remember the first piece of information

they encounter, and that is better
than information presented later on.

So pre-communication is difficult
to master, but Priya Parker knows

how to set up future conversations
for success by communicating in

advance what she hopes to accomplish.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

Question number three, what are the
first three ingredients that go into

a successful communication recipe?

Rachel Greenwald: Ooh,
I love that question.

The first thing that comes
to mind is the expression I'm

gonna steal from real estate.

So in real estate, you probably know the
advice for buying a valuable property

is location, location, location.

So I am gonna say the same as,
it's similar in communication,

which is listen, listen, listen.

That is so important that it
bears repeating three times.

So people, whether it's business or
dating, they put so much emphasis

and communication on what to say.

But really successful communication
is about active listening.

And I use the word active intentionally
'cause I don't mean just listening,

like stop talking or be quiet
or let the other person speak.

But actively listening, means things
like, don't plan your next response.

Don't be listening to what somebody's
saying and secretly thinking about

what, how you're gonna respond.

And active listening means ask
follow up questions instead of

shifting the topic back to yourself.

And probably most of all, active listening
is about encouraging someone to elaborate.

Matt Abrahams: Love those ingredients.

You know, Rachel, I really thank you
for taking time to be with us and give

us very specific advice on how we can
connect better with coworkers, potential

romantic partners, and platonic friends.

I appreciate your time.

I appreciate your input.

Thank you.

Rachel Greenwald: Oh, you're so welcome.

Matt Abrahams: Thanks for joining
us for another episode of Think

Fast Talk Smart, the podcast This
episode was produced by Jenny Luna,

Ryan Campos, and me Matt Abraham's.

Our music was provided by Floyd Wonder.

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