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“Words of Wisdom” is an initiative to document and celebrate the stories, insights, and wisdom of Singapore’s senior citizens. It's powered by Folklory, a service dedicated to preserving stories through audio podcasts, who will collaborate with 60 seniors aged 60 and above to create a series of 60 podcasts, each capturing a unique slice of Singapore’s rich history and culture. Find out more info at Folklory.com
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:06
Unknown
Hello there. This is Terence from folkloric. What you're about to listen to is a podcast from the Words of Wisdom Project, where we spoke to 60 Singaporeans over the age of 64 as you, 60, and captured their life lessons for the next generation. We hope you enjoy it. I.
00:00:24:08 - 00:00:45:22
Unknown
And we're here today with Doctor Gerrard for words of wisdom folk. I think the best way for us to start off the journey is for you to just give a brief introduction of yourself. Yes. I'm a retired, doctor. I've, I'm 76 years old now, and I retired about, one and a half years ago.
00:00:45:24 - 00:01:24:09
Unknown
I was, working as, a gynecologic oncologist in the University hospital for more than 20 years. And, now I retired and, enjoying, life without any agenda. I see, I see. So I mean, you've had a long storied history in Korea, in Singapore as well, right? Yes. In fact, to start off with actually, I'm I was born in India, and I came to Singapore in 1956 when my father migrated from India to Singapore to work.
00:01:24:11 - 00:01:46:06
Unknown
Okay. And, I had all my education in Singapore. I went to primary school in Singapore. It's called Call Me Avenue Primary School. Then I went to Raffles Institution. And then after that I went to National University of Singapore. At that time it was called University of Singapore, where I had my medical degree. MBBS.
00:01:46:08 - 00:02:08:21
Unknown
And after that I went on to specialize in settings and gynecology. And then I even went on my fellowship overseas. And then I came back and and I started working. So I mean, just, because, I think you just mentioned that you've only only retired like quite recently, a year and a half.
00:02:08:22 - 00:02:32:09
Unknown
So yes. So you've had a very, very long career in the medical field. Right. So yeah I mean almost 45 years. Yes. So I do want to understand like how do you, how have you stayed motivated all these years, you know in a very intense field as medicine. How have you kept yourself motivated and full energy to, to keep going on.
00:02:32:11 - 00:02:59:17
Unknown
Right. You see, I was, What? I've always been working with the university hospital for several years, and, one of the main reason for doing that is my love for teaching. I always enjoyed to, teaching undergraduate and postgraduate. And, of course, I had my clinical work, but in the university hospital setting, you could do both, very well.
00:02:59:19 - 00:03:23:00
Unknown
And in fact, as you know, my interest, in 2000, after working in University Hospital for several years, I decided to go into private practice to see how it was. I, me, myself and a few other people joining the group practice, and we worked in Mount Elizabeth Hospital. And that's almost for ten years. We did that.
00:03:23:02 - 00:03:49:22
Unknown
But I found somehow it wasn't as and good as I thought it was, especially in terms of my, love for teaching. I couldn't teach anybody my own private practice is fully patient care only hardly any teaching. So I decided that I'll come back to the university. And I came back to the university back in 2001, and I've been there since then.
00:03:49:24 - 00:04:14:20
Unknown
So I think the most important thing was, the teaching that kept me going. And although I retired last year, I've been actually sort of only doing part time work for the last five, five years. The main reason for that was my both my children ministry in Australia and I've got four grandchildren. So I also wanted to spend time with them.
00:04:14:22 - 00:04:35:16
Unknown
And so I worked like eight months in a year. And then four months ago to Australia. So it was like a part time work for five years. And last year I decided, okay, I want to fully retire and, not have any more clinical work, because when you see patients, you have to be worried about them. And when you go and leave, you worried about their care.
00:04:35:18 - 00:04:58:11
Unknown
So I thought maybe the best thing is to, give up clinical practice altogether. And over time. But now I still do go back to the university for some teaching and attend ten rounds and all that. Got it. So I find it quite interesting. You mentioned that teaching and interfacing with young people, was something that kept you going.
00:04:58:11 - 00:05:30:00
Unknown
Right. Is there something that you see as a big difference between young professionals today versus, young medical professionals back in the day? Is there what's the biggest difference between the two generations? I don't know. Right now. I think the, in in my days, I think, most of us decided, on a particular, specialty and, took up traineeship and became specialists.
00:05:30:02 - 00:05:57:15
Unknown
Although for those of us who didn't want to specialize, we need to have practice, a general practice straight away. And our opportunities were, a bit more because our student intake was much less than what it is today. In my class, we only had 120 students, and the average was about 150 students at that time. Now the intake has increased tremendously, and there's a lot of competition for positions in the hospitals.
00:05:57:17 - 00:06:26:18
Unknown
And, so doctors are always, put under stress or getting into the discipline that they want. And even work wise, the number of patients have increased tremendously because our population has grown. And, there's a lot of stress, work stress for the young doctors. And also, there is a lot of paperwork in which we didn't have in those days when I was, a doctor, there was much less paperwork that need to be done.
00:06:26:18 - 00:06:46:12
Unknown
Now, the doctors have to do a lot of paperwork in addition to the clinical work, and that's putting a lot of stress on them. You know, we've got to fill up so many forms. There are so many surveys, that it's sort of administrative sort of, within bracket, within codes, interference in doing clinical work. So, you know, that.
00:06:46:14 - 00:07:13:12
Unknown
Got it, got it. So I think you also mentioned that you try to spend a little time with your, your kids and, and your grandkids as well. Yes. You know, and I'm sure your kids now have also have lives and careers of their own and of what is, what is one piece of advice that regardless of whichever industry they're in, one piece of advice that you would give to them about managing their career and their work?
00:07:13:14 - 00:07:42:06
Unknown
Okay. From my personal experience, when I was working, my children were very young, but because of the nature of my work and especially I was, doing a lot of delivering of babies and all that. I would hardly spend time with them when they were growing up. You know, most of the time, I may not be around to pushing them out and all that, but that's one of the main reason why now I want to see my grandkids grow up, which I missed completely with my children.
00:07:42:08 - 00:08:11:07
Unknown
But, happily, my son, who has got three kids of his own is quite different from me. He in fact spends quite a lot of time with his kids, even when they're growing up. It takes him to classes he spent was on holidays with them. And I think the young people should have a good balance between looking after their family and their work, which I personally either didn't have that, maybe a luxury of having that, because the nature of my work.
00:08:11:09 - 00:08:32:01
Unknown
But I also, I think now the kids are also smarter. For example, my, the young, consultants in my department, especially the women, quite a few of them have 2 or 3 kids. They go out on holidays, they take the kids out for classes. I think they have a much better work life balance in me.
00:08:32:03 - 00:09:00:16
Unknown
I see, I see. So you did allude to the fact that your work required you very much to be on site all the time delivering babies and everything. I understand you also one of the, the first gynecologist and oncologist of Singapore and, Yeah. There must have been a lot of interesting stories of you, of how your training as a, as a, as a gynecologist in Singapore training, the other people at the time.
00:09:00:18 - 00:09:25:07
Unknown
What what is what is a story that that really stands out that you feel is is something that is, really highlights how different Singapore was back then versus though. Yes. You know, when I was, training, in the late 70s, there wasn't, as you see in, in, obstetrics and gynecology that I actually like.
00:09:25:09 - 00:09:51:04
Unknown
Okay. Like for broad subspecialties, we call them subspecialties. One is called maternal fetal medicine, essentially looking after babies and mothers. The other one is, reproductive, endocrinology, looking after patients with hormonal problems and their facility issues. The third one was gynecologic oncology, which is looking after cancer in the female genital tract. And so these are the three main subspecialties.
00:09:51:04 - 00:10:21:20
Unknown
And in my days, everyone was doing everything. They're all, good at everything. But master of none of the specialties. When I say in the US, you know, it's quite well developed subspecialties. So I decided that something needs to change. So when I became a lecturer in the university, spoke to my boss, the late Professor Ratnam, and he agreed that maybe this is the right time to start subspecialties.
00:10:21:22 - 00:10:52:04
Unknown
So me and my colleague took two years off. We went to United States, United Kingdom and Taiwan. Two years of training. And we loved our kids with us. We just as a wife and our kids along with us, because the kids are all very young. So it wasn't quite a tough training period. But when he came back, we established the first, subspecialty division in the hospital.
00:10:52:06 - 00:11:14:09
Unknown
And from then on, all of the hospitals decided that this is the right way to go. And they send their own specialists to the UN, people to do their society. So now guiding oncology in Singapore has progressed tremendously. And I'm proud to say that we are as good as almost anybody else in the world looking after gaining oncology patients.
00:11:14:11 - 00:11:44:13
Unknown
So, so I think, I've contributed that in a small way. I see, I see well it's it's, it's pretty awesome to be able to say that, you know, you've, you plenty of flag that we in the, in the field in Singapore, you know something that I think you, you've also alluded to in terms of, in terms of what you've done across the years is also your contributions to, to the community as well.
00:11:44:16 - 00:12:15:07
Unknown
Right. And I do want to ask you, a little bit about that in terms of what when, when you, as you're going along with your career in your, in the medical field at all, what were important attributes, that you saw in people that you eventually became friends with or worked with? What were important values to you in terms of, you know, the people they choose to be in your social circle?
00:12:15:09 - 00:12:41:23
Unknown
Okay. Essentially, I mean, other than, the doctors in my department and all that we see every day. Most of my friends happen to be friends from, school days and, both from, secondary school and, university. And, so but I don't have a very large social circle, I must say. It's quite a small one.
00:12:42:00 - 00:13:09:06
Unknown
Maybe, I mean, maybe only like 4 or 5 people, regularly in a year's time. Yeah. No, I don't have a very big social circle. But essentially, these are people who have the same wavelength with me and, who also, good in taking, this exams and giving me criticisms. I mean, we all enjoy it, and we, we, we teach each other all the time.
00:13:09:08 - 00:13:49:08
Unknown
So, so it's a very small group of friends. But I'm quite so, happy with it. And, I think that in terms of community service, I, in fact, you know, I was in the first pro-tem committee for the when it first started, even before it became established as an organization. I was in the very first pro-tem committee, and, and I've been, a lifetime member since then, and I was also involved in them, providing, free medical counseling to people.
00:13:49:10 - 00:14:22:16
Unknown
The Hindu Endowments Board had, free medical counseling service, which started in the 80s. And, I was the chairman for the, their organization for about ten years. And we used to conduct free medical counseling, every week. And then we had a, healthcare once a year. So in that way, I had, I one way of contributing back to the society so that that was what I was involved in.
00:14:22:18 - 00:14:50:17
Unknown
And then I was involved in the cancer societies and all that which are related to my own specialties. Got it. And just extreme writing in, in spite of your really busy schedule work, you still make time for a lot of these community engagements. What was your rationale for taking time outside of your own personal schedule to be involved in the community?
00:14:50:19 - 00:15:16:12
Unknown
I think it's mainly to give back to what the society, what you have, you got, you got from society. You just cannot be an island to yourself and wherever is possible to, give your advice, advice, expertise to people who need it. I think it's, it's very important. I think, people who have to cannot keep to themselves all the time and, where time permits.
00:15:16:14 - 00:15:35:20
Unknown
Please give your years of experience and knowledge to other people. And that's, in fact, the underlying fact why I like teaching. Because, you know, all the experience that I've gained all these years, I don't want it to go to waste. When I go, I always go to benefit if I don't teach to the undergraduates so or the postgraduates.
00:15:35:22 - 00:15:58:14
Unknown
So it's it's all the same. I think, give whatever knowledge and then try to have the people who need it, and do it freely without and then begging the for. You got it? Got it. Have you maintained friendships with any of your ex-students, after they've left school or started a careers? Yes.
00:15:58:18 - 00:16:22:16
Unknown
In terms of doctors, yes. Quite a lot of young doctors, I know them. I mean, in the sense that whenever we meet outside and say hi and we have a chat, yeah, I think that's not too many, but, quite a few of them. And I've seen a lot of the young doctors when they go out to see private parties or they, they refer patients to you, they know what you're doing in the hospital.
00:16:22:18 - 00:16:45:02
Unknown
They know your, capability, and they refer patients. And that's in fact very, fulfilling when you see our old students referring patients back to you, or even better is when they refer their own family members to looked after by yourself. I see some of the, younger doctors save it for their mothers or the sisters to be seen by me.
00:16:45:04 - 00:17:18:15
Unknown
And that's really, fulfilling it. And what is, one piece of advice that you always give to your students is the graduating or embarking on their own, their careers themselves. I think the first thing is you must, treat the patients holistically. And, and in, especially in the present day, where, money become so important is never to look at the economics of your treatment.
00:17:18:17 - 00:17:46:20
Unknown
You give the best care that's available, which is available in your practice. And don't worry too much about the, the cost of it. And, because there are many other organizations that can help the cost of it and especially, my advice when they go into private practice is, of course, in private practice, the, the, to the incentive to do a lot of unnecessary things because of the financial income is very great.
00:17:46:22 - 00:18:10:18
Unknown
So, especially young doctors who are leaving the hospital for private practice. I have a chat with them and see whenever it comes. Please don't lose integrity. Always keep a patient's care in mind and don't do things that are unnecessary. And, you know, this is a medical thing to do. No harm. That's the basis of all medicine should do no harm, you know?
00:18:10:20 - 00:18:29:02
Unknown
So, don't do unnecessary procedures just because it brings you more money. And, in fact, that is one of the reason, other than my love of teaching that I came back to university is the pressure that's put upon you to do unnecessary things. Because you go to run a clinic, you got to pay rental, you got to pay your nurses.
00:18:29:04 - 00:18:49:10
Unknown
Yeah. You know, there's always a disincentive. Shall I, if I do this, can I get more money? And then maybe I do it? You might do a procedure. That thing doesn't do any harm. But in medicine, everything is going to has consequences. Even the, smallest procedure can end up in complications. So. So this is very important.
00:18:49:10 - 00:19:13:10
Unknown
I always advise them. Doctor says money is money can always be earned in a proper way. In the hospitals now, they pay very well. And I think unless you're extravagant in your living, you can have a comfortable living just earning regular salaries in the hospitals. Got it, got it. I think just alluding to something you mentioned earlier, love for teaching.
00:19:13:10 - 00:19:40:18
Unknown
I did want to switch gears a little bit and ask you about love. What. When you hear what love like what does that mean to you okay. Love of teaching. You see I because I had very good teachers when I was a student, I was inspired by them who used to come and, and, like my ex professor, my late professor is an excellent teacher, and I learned a lot, and I think he was very interested in teaching.
00:19:40:20 - 00:20:04:15
Unknown
You know, he will get, just before specialty examinations, say, 2 or 3 months before that. Every Sunday, he'll get all the trainees in for a tutorial. That is, this Sunday is all day, but he will bring all of us in and give a tutorial. I was very inspired by that. And so and in medicine, a lot of it comes through experience.
00:20:04:17 - 00:20:25:04
Unknown
So we don't want everybody to, so invent the wheel again, you know, so the idea to pass on the experience to others and I find it very fulfilling. And I love to do that. That mean that's what I would call love for teaching, because you'll pass on your experience and knowledge to the younger people so they can start off at a higher level instead of studying at the bottom.
00:20:25:06 - 00:21:01:07
Unknown
Yeah. Okay. I, I did want to understand your thoughts about romantic love when, when you it when you hear the word love. Okay. Like what? What romantic love me to you. Okay. I, okay. I haven't got much experience in that. Okay. I had an arranged marriage, which is. Which is quite common in those days. Although my son had a marriage is different, you know, I had a arranged marriage, but, I think it's something that, romance can come after marriage, so, so that's that's what I feel, you know?
00:21:01:11 - 00:21:26:09
Unknown
Got it. And so do you believe in love at first sight? I don't know. I have never experienced it, so I really can't tell. I suppose looking at all the movies and the literature, maybe there is something like a good person. I know personal experiences. But for you, I think you mentioned that love can develop after after, over time.
00:21:26:09 - 00:21:48:04
Unknown
Right? Oh, yes. Yes, yes. How does. Because young people today. I think that might be a quite a foreign concept to them. Because, you know, there's a lot like you mentioned Hollywood movies. And I'll tell you about looking for the one and all, but what do you mean that love can develop after meeting? You know, sometimes it's intellectually nebulous concept, and I don't know a lot of it.
00:21:48:04 - 00:22:21:16
Unknown
Maybe just physical attraction because I've seen, I mean, mine was an arranged marriage, but I've seen a lot of people who date for years, and then they get married, and then one year later they get divorced, you know? So, so, I don't know, I'm a a whether what they did for the last, I mean, during dating, I really have no idea, but I don't understand people who can date for so many years, get married and break off so fast, so, I think it is something that I think first, you must, respect your partner.
00:22:21:18 - 00:22:44:01
Unknown
Goodness. Hey, hey, of course you all have differences. I mean, I've seen very few couples where I didn't know agree with everything. Couples will always have differences, but is it, whether you agree to disagree. Yeah. And one thing that I totally, totally abhor is the use of physical violence, is totally unacceptable to me, I think.
00:22:44:01 - 00:23:10:11
Unknown
I don't think anyone has got the right to especially, men, using, physical abuse on their female partners or wives. That's absolutely unacceptable. And they should never be any reason for that. You could also disagree on everything. It's best to separate and and leave and never use any physical violence, you know? So. Sure.
00:23:10:13 - 00:23:34:12
Unknown
So I mean, in that sense, what do you think is important in keeping the in maintaining the longevity of a marriage? No, what what a day to day actions that couples forget to. I think first they must understand that they're going to be a lot of differences of opinion. So the longer we live together, the more differences you're going to feel.
00:23:34:14 - 00:23:59:20
Unknown
You know, I've been married for 48 years now, 47 years. So I would know, initially, we all agree on a lot of things. Now we disagree on a lot of things. Our interests have changed over time, how our preferences about things have changed over time. We do argue about it, but that's about it. But you must understand that you're living with someone who is a human being will have their own interests.
00:23:59:22 - 00:24:30:10
Unknown
So you must respect that. And, just, and especially we have a family. You've got to think of the family itself, you know, you've got kids and grandkids and all that. You've got to look, think of that. And, try and, maintain, good atmosphere at home, you know, and, I don't think there's a, I, I don't see anything wrong with fighting each other.
00:24:30:12 - 00:24:57:12
Unknown
At the end of the day, you go to bed having compromised and so that all the problems don't go to bed with a fight. That's very important. Sure. Okay. And so in terms of, lessons or advice that you've passed on to your children about marriage or, or love for relationships, is there anything that you have told them or you think that's important for them to learn?
00:24:57:14 - 00:25:25:05
Unknown
In fact, this is what what I told you just now that I always tell them that, you know, nowadays kids are very fast in making quick decisions because a lot of young people get married and divorce quickly. Is okay if they don't have kids, but their kids even worse. But I tell my children, first of all, that they both got married to, dated, and, then they got married.
00:25:25:07 - 00:25:45:10
Unknown
So I said, if you're going to fight a lot, go to do a lot of things. But at the end of the day, you remember you got married because you like each other. And, compromise whenever you can. And, think of the future, you know, and and divorce is not the solution for everything. You know? Yeah.
00:25:45:12 - 00:26:08:15
Unknown
So definitely not the answer for, sort of, domestic fights. You know, because we're doing this interview as a time capsule of a generation of Singaporeans talking about the aspirations for the future. What are the wishes that you have for the next generation of Singapore who could be listening to this 10 or 20 years down the road?
00:26:08:17 - 00:26:32:20
Unknown
What do you wish for them in the upcoming years? Okay, maybe I'll start with the advice for the person because I lived through the 60s, 70s and all that when Singapore just became independent, you know, and things are very, very different. And I must say the younger people now have a much, much better life than what we had in the 60s.
00:26:32:22 - 00:27:01:22
Unknown
Singapore has progressed so tremendously, and I think they should, be thankful that they're living in this country, you know, not to, you know, many other places, unfortunately, where they don't have the luxury of living a life like in Singapore in terms of basic comforts. Everything is available in Singapore. And so I think they should be thankful for it and work towards making this place even better for the area.
00:27:02:01 - 00:27:23:20
Unknown
Yeah, for the nations. You know, having gone through the early years of Singapore's development, I'm really, really thankful that, I'm here and,
00:27:23:22 - 00:27:53:07
Unknown
Hello again. I hope you enjoyed listening to that. For me, words of Wisdom is a project by Charlotte Gall, powered by folklorist and supported by our Singapore Fund. To find out more, please visit our website at Folklorico. That's f okay o r y Aecom. Goodbye.