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[00:00:00] Announcer: This is the Build A Vibrant Culture Podcast, your source for the strategies, systems, and insights you need to turn your dreams into your destiny. Every week we dive into dynamic conversations. As our host, Nicole Greer, interviews leadership and business experts. They're here to shed light on practical solutions to the challenges of personal and professional development. Now, here's your host, a professional speaker, coach, and consultant, Nicole Greer.
[00:00:29] Nicole: Welcome everybody to the Build A Vibrant Culture podcast. My name is Nicole Greer and they call me The Vibrant Coach, and I am here with Adam Kemper and you are in for a treat. Let me tell you all about Adam. Adam is the owner/founder of The Workplace Law Firm. He brings over 15 years of experience in workplace law, beginning at the EEOC during the height of the 2008 recession --remember that? That was the pits-- before transitioning to the claimant side firm for two and a half years, and then two large defense law firms where he was elevated to partner. He's really smart. And then opening up The Workplace Law Firm all on his own, being an entrepreneur three years ago. Adam has litigated numerous workplace disputes from inception through trial, and also regularly works with business owners on proactive (that's what we're gonna talk about today) and preventative workplace solutions so they can avoid being sued by their employees or audited by the government. Raise your right hand if you would like that. Not to be sued and not to be audited. That's what we want. All right. Adam is a regular speaker on the HR, Human Resources and Employment Law topics and you can learn more about him at www.theworkplacelawfirm.com. And I am so glad to have you here, Adam. How are you doing?
[00:01:47] Adam Kemper: I'm doing great. I mean, it certainly could be worse and I feel like it's a pretty good day, so we'll take that.
[00:01:53] Nicole: All right. He might be working on a tough case or something. I don't know what's going on. All right. Very good. All right, well, Adam, you and I had like a little, you know, prior to the podcast meeting and we talked about the fact that people just need a set of best practices. You know, help me understand the dos and the don'ts and the rights and the wrongs in terms of hiring people and working with folks. And so we thought let's go through the employee life cycle and talk about what might be important at the different stages of an employee's tenure with us. And so the first thing that I've got on my list is the idea that HR practitioners, entrepreneurs, business owners, VPs, CEOs, all the E'S and the I'S and the o's, they need a strategy to deliver their HR employee life cycle to their people. So just in general, like a hundred thousand foot view what's a good way to think about or a strategy for us to work with our employees? What do you think?
[00:02:53] Adam Kemper: Nicole, I'm so happy that you and I did get to chat before the podcast because I think we both came to the same conclusion that this life cycle is a real thing for employers and it's really a way that we can simplify the employment process and really carve it up into pieces so that employers can understand -and employees- the various cycles. Okay. Beginning from, let's say the job advertisement, which is the first impression that an employer sends out to the world. This is our business, this is our first impression. Candidate then sees if he or she likes that impression and wants to go any further. Okay? So that's just an example of let's say, the very beginning stage, all the way to the end stage, which is the offboarding of the employee. And there's a lot in between those two, of course, which have a lot of thorny employment issues and considerations to take into account. So I think the whole goal with this discussion is really to chop it up into pieces and to really drill down on each component so that we can see some of the employment and labor ramifications of each component, as well as some HR considerations as well.
[00:04:20] Nicole: I love it. Okay, so the first thing, like you just said, is to attract this new person to your company and out there, right now, everybody's telling me it is a challenge to find great people and we want to be an appealing, inclusive employer. I've got a little thing on attraction. It says, "Attracting people to join the company is about our corporate reputation," which Adam just said, "and the information that potential candidates hear about us and can find out about us." Hmm. Don't miss that. All right. So Adam what are some dos and don'ts best practices for attracting top quality talent?
[00:04:58] Adam Kemper: Well first is figuring out who it is that you're looking for. Okay? And then presenting the job advertisement, not as a job, but as an opportunity. And I think the two need to be separated because people like opportunities, right? People don't really like jobs. So how do you present an opportunity to a demographic that you're interested in attracting? Well, you need to understand that demographic. Okay? What is appealing to that demographic? What's appealing to most demographic is above market comp and benefits, right. But on top of that, I look at something like even though this is not legal, but the aesthetics of the job advertisement. How does it actually appear? How is the wording? And do you have the company logo on there? Simple things that get overlooked more often than you can imagine. Because the job candidates these days are thinking about this first impression and they're thinking about, well, if this was sloppily done or maybe there was a typo, or maybe the grammar was poorly done, is this really an organization that I want to work for? You know, they're thinking these things. So you have the aesthetics, you have the content, and of course then you have things that hopefully don't trip you up in terms of employment laws by saying things you shouldn't be saying in these job advertisements. For example, offering...
[00:06:32] Nicole: Get your pens ready! Pens ready!
[00:06:33] Adam Kemper: Yeah, for example, let's say offering a wage that is below minimum wage. Okay? I see that, believe it or not. People don't realize that minimum wage goes up just about every year in most states. Number two, maybe saying something like, well, we prefer a certain gender for this position. Not something you should really say, but I've seen it happen. Maybe you have too, Nicole. Number three. Maybe saying, well, we're not going to pay overtime for this position. No overtime is permitted. We're not going to pay it. That's not a good idea. Number four, we're looking for someone young and energetic, preferably in their twenties. These are all things I've real world examples that I've seen by the way.
[00:07:21] Nicole: I believe it.
[00:07:22] Adam Kemper: In their twenties, okay. Preferably.
[00:07:26] Nicole: Hey, about us 58-year-old chicks that have a lot of energy right?
[00:07:30] Adam Kemper: Exactly. Exactly. So let's just like, let's try and narrow down really the focus being on the job qualifications. And also, it's important to keep in mind, you know, when we talk about the aesthetics and the what not to say, but also what is included should naturally flow into what is ultimately the offer, which is that opportunity, the opportunity to work with the organization is the job offer. Okay? So there should be no bait and switch by the employer, bringing the candidate in for an interview, which would be the next step in the cycle, and then presenting the job as being something different than what was characterized on the advertisement. So biggest takeaway from this is knowing what to say, what not to say, having it be aesthetically pleasing, and also ensuring consistency through job advertisement to job offer, to actually the position itself once the candidate's employed by the organization.
[00:08:36] Nicole: Yeah, and I love what you're saying about no bait and switch; however, I do have a question while I've got you here. All right. So I have had people apply for a position and I thought they're not qualified for this position, but I looked at their resume or the job application that they filled out, and I thought I could use them over there. I think this is a better thing. How do I handle that as an HR professional when I'm like, I don't think they can do this one, but boy, I think they'd be good over there. How do I handle that and do it the right way?
[00:09:06] Adam Kemper: Yeah, it's just in the manner in which the the message is communicated, you know? Declining, but offering another opportunity which may fit that employee's skillset, which may actually be more beneficial to that employee, given that employee's skillset. So just staying positive in the communication can go a long way and not letting the employee down, but repositioning the employee to a better opportunity. So it's really just a matter of staying, like I said, staying positive through that process.
[00:09:36] Nicole: Yeah and I think the one thing that I do is I'm very clear, I don't think that you're a good fit for this particular job, but I'd like you to apply over on this one. Right? And so kind of keeping my ducks in a row and then making good notes. You know, I talked to him, told him it wasn't the right thing, but maybe over here. What do you think about that? Am I handling it right in that way?
[00:09:57] Adam Kemper: I personally don't like "you're not a good fit." I personally don't like that terminology, but
[00:10:02] Nicole: How should I say it?
[00:10:04] Adam Kemper: I would say here's what we have, and I would even just totally redirect the conversation to this other position and just say, here's what we have in mind for you, given your qualifications and skillset, which we highly seek. We happen to have a role which we think would be perfect for you, and then you just, redirect the conversation to this other opportunity without necessarily getting into the formality of declining for the original position so that you know, now you're presenting this new opportunity and it's all positive. It's staying positive.
[00:10:37] Nicole: Okay. I love that. And look, you can teach an old dog new tricks. I love that. That is so good. That is so good. All right. Fantastic. I think somebody taught me what I do. So don't miss that everybody. So we are here and we've got Adam, and he's gonna get us going the right direction. All right, so the next part of the employee life cycle is recruiting. So there's attracting, the job placement ad or the opportunity ad, let's call it that from now on. And then we have this thing of recruiting. So enabling all talent to successfully apply. And I'll read this little blurb and you let me know what you think, Adam. Our recruitment process is to be free of bias, clearly signals our interest in diverse candidates, supports applications from diverse candidates, and defines expectations of recruitment. So that's a little bit of what you said, but is that on point?
[00:11:28] Adam Kemper: Yeah. The only thing you need to be mindful of in this particular climate, let's say if you're listening to this shortly after this recording in April or May of 2025, this whole concept of DEI and some of what the federal government's doing to shut it down. You need to be a little bit more mindful of your inclusion of the D, the I or the E in your terminology. But other than that, yes, it sounds spot on. I always say go for qualifications above everything else. But you need to know what you need, too. Understand what you actually need, and then position the opportunity to address that need.
[00:12:08] Nicole: Okay.
[00:12:08] Adam Kemper: And then attract the talent that hopefully has what you need.
[00:12:12] Nicole: Right. Right. Okay. Well let's talk about the interviewing process, which is part of number three, recruiting. So we're gonna have an inclusive process. So tell me a little bit about interview questions and how to handle interviews. What's the appropriate thing to do? What would be best practices?
[00:12:31] Adam Kemper: Best practices for the interview is really to stay laser focused on qualifications on the actual position itself. When interviewers go astray and begin to get into these violative areas, it's because they get too much into the personal. In terms of asking, let's say a female candidate, are you planning to have a family anytime soon? Or some questions which can get into the area of looking like you're thinking about one or more protected characteristics. So just best practice is to stay laser focused on the candidates' qualifications, experience, and how that relates to the position in question so that it's clearly objectively done. It's solely focused on the position and it has nothing to do with the personal things that tend to get companies in trouble when you begin to veer off into the personal side. And I understand it. I've interviewed hundreds of people before and I understand that there is this personal comradery that you want to experience during the interview process. You want to get a glimpse of what it's like to work with the candidate. Because this is someone you're going to be spending a lot of time with. But I only mention to be mindful and careful of the personal side just because some of the questions, typically unintentionally, can lead to problems during the interview process.
[00:13:55] Nicole: Okay. And so, the interview process. What do you think about in terms of the number of times people are interviewed or sometimes people want to do a panel interview where there's four or five people and one candidate. What are your thoughts on the different styles of interviewing and things like that? Is there anything we should know about that in terms of what's legal or fair?
[00:14:18] Adam Kemper: I use this principle with just about everything, the golden rule of trying to put yourself in the other person's shoes. Okay. So when I guide my clients and my clients' representatives on the business side on how to handle things like this, I always say, you know, how would you feel if you were in the candidate's shoes? Okay. And you always have to remember on the employer side, yes, you're interviewing the candidate, but the candidate's also interviewing you. So you want to avail yourself to the opportunity to receive questions from the candidate. And to best position your company as one which the candidate would ideally like to work for. So what's the prime environment to enable that? One which is maybe not so intimidating. You know, maybe having a a circle of three or four people surrounding one candidate, that can be quite intimidating.
[00:15:10] Nicole: I think so too sometimes. Yeah.
[00:15:12] Adam Kemper: I would probably lean towards one or maybe a second person. And then maybe having one more interview. But gosh, to have beyond two interviews and to have all these people in there, I personally experienced it and it's just-- I mean, it almost seems like paralysis analysis, when you're throwing in four or five different personalities multiple times over, and it's too much in my opinion, so I think you can really simplify it. Bring in the hiring individual or the supervisor for the candidate. Maybe bring in a second person, maybe an HR professional. And that's it in my opinion. I think you should leave it limited to that.
[00:15:54] Nicole: Okay. All right. And then just finally on the recruiting side, sometimes people are like, I want you to come over. We're gonna take you to lunch, we're gonna do a tour. What do you think about the hospitality visit that they might be doing, you know, so that they can see where they might be working. What are your thoughts on that?
[00:16:11] Adam Kemper: I like it. I like that because, once again, putting myself in the candidate's shoes, what I look for, or what I recommend candidates look for, is like, take a look around and observe people in their working experience. You know how do they seem, do they seem happy? Do they seem stressed? Do they seem tired? Do they all have bags under their eyes? You know, and I'm being serious.
[00:16:34] Nicole: Oh, I know.
[00:16:35] Adam Kemper: And then, and then also try and find out, and you may not see this on like a hospitality visit, but find out a real day in the life of a coworker, unbiased, if you can, because that's going to give you the real. You know what I mean? Versus what is presented to you during the interview from the employer, because they're always going to be on their best behavior, really trying to sell the business and sell that opportunity to the candidate. So I like the hospitality visit for the reason that it gives the candidate the opportunity to observe and process a little bit more about what the organization is going to be like and it gives them a visual. Okay. So a lot of us we process things different ways. You know, it's one thing to receive things from an auditory standpoint of listening and talking and things like that. It's quite another thing to actually visually see the work site. So I would actually encourage more people, and I know we're in like the Zoom age where there's a lot of remote working and hybrid working and things like that. But if you can bring that candidate in, I actually love that idea. I'm happy you brought it up because it, it does give that candidate the visual of what it would be like to potentially work there.
[00:17:53] Nicole: That's right. That's right. And I think it's so good for the culture, too, because it demonstrates to the people that are already there. You know, we're taking sacred care to bring people in. In a great way. And, we are welcoming and it starts getting things going in the right direction.
[00:18:09] All right. Last thing about recruiting. So we've interviewed this person. What about background checks? Sometimes folks will say, I'm gonna go check out their social media. All the things that we can do in terms of, finding out what their previous record is. What are your thoughts on checking their records and their backgrounds?
[00:18:28] Adam Kemper: I think it's fine. You know, I'm okay with having a process where you can go look at someone's background and potentially do a reference check. Even though reference checks are
[00:18:37] Nicole: They're hard, aren't they? Everybody just says yes they worked here and that's it.
[00:18:41] Adam Kemper: Correct. Yeah. You're not gonna get much from a reference check. The social media, that can be a little dicey. We can talk about that a little bit more, but if you get into the background check, the key is to make sure you know what you're doing. Because there are a set of laws that apply to the background check process, principally the Fair Credit Reporting Act. You need to get someone's consent before you use a third party to conduct a background check. And there's this whole process of, well, what if you don't like what you see on the background check? Under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, and then there's anti-discrimination laws as well. So make sure you do that under the advice of counsel with a reputable background check company. There are some that are better than others, and I've seen some really bad ones that companies just say, you know what? We thought they were handling that background check. Company says, nope, the fine print in eight point font says that you guys have to handle that and you're responsible. So know who you're getting into business with when you begin to select your vendors to help you with things like background checks and potentially drug screens. When it comes to social media, you can't unsee what you see.
[00:19:51] Nicole: That is exactly right. It's in the vault.
[00:19:53] Adam Kemper: You can't unsee what you see, you can see things that you may not ordinarily see, let's say on a job application or in a resume, or maybe even on a background check. Some of those things can equate to, once again, protected characteristics. And if you decide you don't like what you see on the social media, but you still saw it. Well, what you saw may have included one of these protected characteristics, which can then lead to this potential discrimination claim. So I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying, you know, exercise your due diligence. Make sure you get good advice from counsel. Make sure you partner with some very reputable companies that can help you with this process. And just really be mindful of all the laws that come into effect the second you begin to look into someone's background.
[00:20:43] Nicole: Okay. And in terms of not hiring the candidate based on a background check. Do I need to have a hard and fast rule? What I will take and what I won't take, and then I've gotta hold it to that letter of the law? I mean, how do I make my choices about what I find in somebody's background?
[00:21:01] Adam Kemper: Yeah, so consistency is the best defense to discrimination. So, if you have a rule which says we're not taking on anybody with, let's say, certain convictions. Then you need to be consistent across the board. Having said that, also know you're hiring people because now we have Ban the Box rules and certainly the EEOC has published guidelines against using arrest or conviction data to bar candidates. So always be mindful of those laws. But if you're consistent and you get once again, proper advice from counsel, that's going to be the best defense instead of just doing this, you know, we'll take it on a case by case basis scenario. So, yeah, I mean, you can draw out guidelines. Ideally those guidelines are job related. Okay? And they're -this is terminology from the EEOC- consistent with business necessity. So job related and consistent with business necessity, which means that you're not really just barring people based on their, let's say, conviction. You're really thinking about how that conviction, or even how that arrest relates to the job in question. And I think that'll be very helpful to you if you're actually using that criteria to make your decision, versus just saying, well, we don't like what we see, and even though it has nothing to do with the position, we're still not going to allow it.
[00:22:26] Nicole: Right. An example that was shared with me one time is if somebody's going to handle a lot of cash or have access to financial documentation or processes that you might have, a certain criteria that you won't accept, like somebody was convicted of embezzlement or something like that. That's a big thing. But you would not put that person in charge of a lot of cash or money or finances. Does that seem reasonable? Is that what they're talking about?
[00:22:55] Adam Kemper: That's exactly what they're talking about. And I always say this to my clients too, you know, if you're going to make a decision, you need to be so comfortable with that decision that you wouldn't mind getting in front of a judge or jury explaining why you did what you did.
[00:23:08] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:23:09] Adam Kemper: So I think a jury can understand that type of decision making, and a judge too. Ones they may not understand or may not empathize with is the ones where there's no relation to the job in question. And I think that's part of the reason why the EEOC came up with that guidance.
[00:23:26] Nicole: Okay, fantastic. All right. And you just kind of dropped in this thing: drug test. So let's go down that bunny trail. Some of the organizations I work with, they're not doing it. It's only until the employee has a behavior that's questionable or something and then they send them off for a drug test or something like that. And some people are like, no, I'm absolutely doing one before I hire them. So, the world is changing, the scenes are changing out there. It's a different world. You can drive down I 77 in Charlotte and there's a big sign for cannabis and different things. So what are your thoughts on drug testing? What do you think about all this that's going on?
[00:24:03] Adam Kemper: Well, it's certainly an interesting time. The times are changing and that to me is like the most fascinating part of our jobs is working with an ever evolving workplace. Okay. It's always evolving. So this issue of drug use, well, you know, we have marijuana's in the process of being rescheduled from a schedule one to a schedule three at the federal level. Okay. So it's still a banned substance under federal law. That doesn't mean by rescheduling it, it makes it legal. You know, that can change at a later point, but at a federal level, it's still illegal. But at a state level throughout the country, Numerus actually did a video about this earlier. Numerous states have passed legislation granting permission for people to have medical marijuana use and recreational use in certain states. And some states also give protection to employees, that if they have a medical marijuana card, that they cannot be discharged by their employer for having that medical marijuana card and utilizing medical marijuana essentially. So what does that mean for us? And then, if you look up the statistics on consumption of marijuana or even some of these over the counter hemp substances that may have traces of THC in them. What does that mean for employers? Well, that means that you need to get in touch with the times. If you have greater consumption across the board and it's permissible in many ways, then are you going to have this hard and fast rule, which says we're not going to allow it? Which in turn may eliminate a lot of people. Okay. Or are you going to make an exception to it? And just govern it, maybe like you govern alcohol. Because nobody really thinks about alcohol. Everybody says yes, you can't drink on the job or come intoxicated or be under the influence. We all understand that, but nobody says we're going to ban you from doing it during your off time, even if it doesn't interfere with your job. Well, we're beginning to see marijuana use governed the same way, which is sort of what was expected.
[00:26:16] Nicole: Right.
[00:26:17] Adam Kemper: The question becomes, for like these positions where they're safety sensitive roles and things like that, do you still keep that hard and fast rule? Or let's say if you're in the medical industry and you're performing surgery on somebody, do you still keep that hard and fast rule? Or if you're, you know, in other industries. So this particular scenario does require a little bit of a case by case analysis because we need to go into the business and see what is it that you guys do, what is it that your employees do, and do you need to have this hard and fast, you know, drug-free workplace. Marijuana, medical marijuana is not included in that. And we need to also see, does that comply with state law too? So the takeaway from this discussion is this is something that should be reviewed and reevaluated pretty regularly. Make sure that you're in compliance with the times and also with the current state of your employee interests and maybe their consumption habits.
[00:27:20] Nicole: Yeah, that's exactly right. And we're headed towards onboarding. We're gonna hire this person. And so we're headed toward onboarding. But making sure your employee handbook and all the things are up to date. And I talk to people all the time and they're like, we haven't updated this in five years. And I'm like, it needs to be on the HR calendar for October. So when the new year rolls around, you've already reviewed it, you've called up Adam, he's taken a peek at it. He's given you some counsel, and you're going the right direction. So, it's a document that I think you -you could straighten me out here- needs attention and intention on the regular, is what I think.
[00:27:57] Adam Kemper: Every year. Every year, every year. And it's good reason. It's not just for us practitioners to say, oh, well, we get more work. It's actually for you to maybe take a step back, you as the business owner, take a step back and see, you know, what is it that we've learned this past year.
[00:28:12] Nicole: Right.
[00:28:13] Adam Kemper: And how can we improve on our workplace? Because to your point, if business owners don't get around to doing this every five years until they get bugged enough from one of us, they're not going to take that opportunity to take a step back and look at things at the macro level and say, why did certain employees leave this year? What could we have done better to maybe keep our positive employees around a little bit more? Maybe we should revisit the benefit plan that we have in place. Also, maybe we should have had some more formalities when it comes to disciplining employees. What did we learn from that, too? So it's not just a matter of updating the laws, which you should look at annually anyway, but it's also what did you learn from this past year as a business owner? And how can we improve on that this next coming year? So annually, it's the best practice by far. I don't think you need to do it any more than that, you know, unless there's a major change, in which case one of us can prepare an amendment or a standalone policy. But trust me when I say this, go through the process. If there's any takeaway from this video, spend some time with your attorney or your HR professional. At least once a year going through what did we learn this year about our workplace? How can we make it better next year?
[00:29:37] Nicole: Yeah, and you've
[00:29:38] Adam Kemper: If you're listening to this, I'm sorry, one more thing. If you're listening to this podcast, you'd be one that resonates with this type of message because you want this vibrant workplace culture. This is one of the ways to make it happen. I'm sorry I cut you off.
[00:29:50] Nicole: No, no, you're fine. I just want to say you've said that three times, so I just want everybody to say, Adam just said that three times. Right? Look back over the year and look at the people that have left the company, whether you let 'em go or they left on their own accord. And I love what you were saying about step back, go to the macro level because sometimes we're just like, well, that was Joe. You know how Joe was. So you almost kind of discount the whole Joe scenario, but no, he's part of this big puzzle that's telling you what's really going on, right? So he might not have handled it the best on his way out or whatever, but that doesn't mean that Jennifer or Jose or Tanika didn't feel the exact same way as Joe. You know what I mean? So you've got to stop. And you know, they say Adam, that one of the best habits of leaders is that they stop and reflect, and I love what you're saying.
[00:30:43] Adam Kemper: Absolutely. Absolutely. You have to. You have to look at yourself in the mirror.
[00:30:47] Announcer: Are you ready to build your vibrant culture? Bring Nicole Greer to speak to your leadership team, conference or organization to help them with their strategies, systems, and smarts. To increase clarity, accountability, energy, and results your organization will get lit from within. Email her at nicole@vibrantcole.com and be sure to check out Nicole's TEDx talk at vibrantculture.com.
[00:31:13] Nicole: And I don't know if I've ever told you this, Adam, but my favorite question to ask leaders is this. What is it like to experience you? And the second favorite question is, what is it like to experience your culture? You gotta get your head wrapped around that fact. And like said, we are interviewing them, but they're interviewing us. And it's an experience of working there. And we all have stories where we're like, oh my God, I loved working there. And then we have stories like, oh, it was terrible. You know? And so your place is one of those two extremes or something in the middle, right? You gotta figure out what you're trying to do here, right? Alright. So we got through the drug test, we did all the stuff, and now we're gonna onboard this person. And so let me just read what I got, 'cause I'm double checking myself now 'cause you're gonna straighten me out too.
[00:32:03] Onboarding. You can't know it all. Did y'all hear that? You cannot know it all. You need friends like Adam Kemper to come into your life. Okay. Number four, onboarding is an opportunity for new employees to understand expectations and to be aware of the support-- and here's Adam's favorite word-- opportunities available so that they can be completely themselves at work. What do you think about that little statement?
[00:32:28] Adam Kemper: I like that. I like that a lot. Because candidates, they're always on their best behavior during the interview or just like the interviewers are as well. But ultimately, everybody's going to find out who you are. Sooner or later, we'll progress or regress to who we are. Right? So I think people need to be hired and they need to be comfortable in their own skin to do what is what it is that they do best. If they're putting on this persona or they're not acting like themselves, that's only going to last for so long. And then it's going to create discomfort for not only them, but for other people that may sniff that out. You know what I mean? So the other thing I always mention when you bring people on is that they're not supposed to be a set and forget,
[00:33:13] Nicole: Oh, talk, talk, talk. This is good.
[00:33:16] Adam Kemper: So just because you've now gone through all this recruitment process doesn't mean the retention process ends, or actually the recruitment process ends. The way you should really be thinking about it is you're always recruiting people to stay on board with you.
[00:33:32] Nicole: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:33] Adam Kemper: And that requires regular engagement, which by the way is a year round sport, okay? This is not something that is a recruitment, and then holiday party, we see you once a year, we tell you your review, you're doing fine or you're doing poorly, and then that's the end of it. And we just assume you'll stay unless you raise a stink about it, right.
[00:33:56] Employees need and deserve regular engagement. They need acknowledgement. They need to understand how what they're doing fits within the equation of the business. Because so many employers lose sight of that. They just say, well, you're here to fill a role. Well, that's fine, but how does my role fit into the bigger piece of this puzzle that is this business? And it's incumbent on employers to explain that to the employees and to let them know how they're doing. Not only because it's the right thing to do, but also it begins to manage expectations too, right? So that if you ever need to then go down, let's say the disciplinary route, you've had these discussions, you've managed the expectations, there are no surprises. I always say that at the time an employee's terminated. I know we're jumping ahead a little bit. There should be no surprises. Because the employer or leadership or management supervisor, somebody set up the expectations through those initial discussions, continued to manage them throughout the experience to the point where, let's say the disciplinary action or the termination is like the natural flow from those prior discussions. There are no surprises. There's pure alignment. Employees may not agree with that.
[00:35:23] Nicole: Right. They may not agree that they're not doing the job, but you're telling them.
[00:35:27] Adam Kemper: You're telling them, and you're being transparent with them, and there are no surprises. Okay. The last thing employees want is a surprise, okay? Because then they jump into this fight or flight. Because it's this unknown that you've now created for the employee. But if they're knowingly going into this perilous route, there's not going to be the fight or flight. They're knowing what they're getting themselves into because you've managed their expectations through the process. So it's, I know it's some of psychology that I just dropped in there a little bit, but it really is in the best interest of both sides to just have that regular engagement and regular communication.
[00:36:08] Nicole: Yeah. Okay. So I'm gonna throw a question at you about that. One of the things that I teach is Vibrant Employee Performance. And I encourage leaders, especially if you've done the interviewing, you've done the background check, you've done all the stuff, and you've got this brand new human --who is a resource. Let's not miss that, everybody, human resource-- it would do you very, very, very well to pay attention to them, get the engagement. And I'm gonna talk about employee engagement surveys too with you, see if you've got an opinion on that. But the way that I teach it is I say, sit down with them. What do you want to do with your career? What can I teach you? What skills do you want to work on? Early on people are eager to get busy and get developed, which is actually number five, learning and development, the fifth part of the employee life cycle. And when I look back in my career, I had two, three people who paid a lot of attention to me and I worked so hard for them. And then I had other people who didn't pay attention to me. I still worked hard, but I left. And so, employee performance management, what are your thoughts on that?
[00:37:11] Adam Kemper: People need to feel seen. You know that example you just gave? There's only so many days where you can go into work, do your job, and then not feel any dopamine tied to that process. So once you're acknowledged. You get that dopamine hit, it's like, oh, I'm doing something right. And I crave more of that. And it's not just this feeling of dopamine, it's also like I said, the right thing to do. You want to have this best practice in your workplace. You need to have regular engagement and communication with your employees, and they should also begin to see a future with your organization. Well, how do they see a future? You begin to design it with them. Not for them. With them, by engaging with them and understanding what it is that they want out of the experience and what it is that you can provide to them. Because the more they begin to see a future with your organization, the more likely they're gonna stay put, because now they're beginning to have that vision of that experience, right? So there's that. And then of course you want to compensate that well, well enough.
[00:38:20] Nicole: Yeah. You should pay people well.
[00:38:21] Adam Kemper: And properly, by the way. And properly, by the way. You want to pay minimum wage and overtime if it's applicable -- it most of the time is. You want to pay people on time and you want to stay on top of market trends in terms of benefits and comp. Otherwise you could be doing all these wonderful things and be totally missing out on that. And that's typically number one for most people is being paid properly. So don't lose sight of that for sure.
[00:38:46] Nicole: Yeah, I mean I have never worked for somebody who didn't pay me, but I have heard plenty of stories and I'm just like, you got to get your resume together. You gotta get outta there. Because that's just like the ultimate affront, I think, is to work, do your time, do a good job, and then we don't have a paycheck for you. So that's just a sign of a lot of things going wrong.
[00:39:08] Adam Kemper: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:09] Nicole: Yep. All right. So the last thing I want to talk about is, I don't know if you have an opinion on employee engagement surveys, but sometimes Adam, I have so many HR people are like, we need to start an employee engagement survey. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Before we put this survey together, let's engage, you know, let's put the horse in front of the cart. Let's get a plan for engagement and then see how we're doing. But a lot of people just, they're throwing out this employee engagement survey, but they don't have a back to number one on our employee life cycle, a strategy. And I think that like you're saying, and notice people, they get a dopamine hit and they're like, I'm in the right place. So what are your thoughts on employee engagement surveys? I'm just curious. Maybe you can help me.
[00:39:50] Adam Kemper: I think they have a place. I also think that when there's a forum for people to complain, they will utilize that forum.
[00:39:58] Nicole: I agree.
[00:39:59] Adam Kemper: So just be aware of what will presumably be mostly negativity coming out of that. But you may be able to find some bits and pieces in there. And I think what employees want to see is that you're trying. You know, you're trying to implement the things that you're asking them to comment on and give ideas about. Because if they're just giving all these suggestions and you're not trying any of them, then they're going to begin to think, well, this is just nonsense. This is futile. So the key is if you're going to ask the employees, be prepared for a lot of negativity, a lot of complaints, but you may have some suggestions in there and you ought to try 'em, if they're reasonable, of course. Because like I said, if you don't try 'em, then what's the whole point?
[00:40:45] Nicole: That's right, because then you do the survey the second year and like four people respond.
[00:40:50] Adam Kemper: Or the, or the same people respond, well, I said this last year, but you didn't care. You know.
[00:40:55] Nicole: Right, right.
[00:40:56] Adam Kemper: So you also, as an employer, need to be open for suggestions, because what's the point if you already have a plan in place to do what you already intended to do, and you're just kind of going through the motions? Employees can pick that up, that you're just checking off boxes and going through the motions. So it does need to be sincere and genuine.
[00:41:15] Nicole: Yeah, I totally agree. Okay. Well, I'm curious about the fifth stage of the employee life cycle, which is learning and development. And then number six is about rewarding and recognizing people. So is there anything I need to be careful of in terms of what's legal or fair when I give out learning and development opportunities, or I give somebody Employee of the Month or Manager of the Year. Was there something I need to think about there?
[00:41:44] Adam Kemper: So when it comes to promotions or training opportunities or bonuses, comp additions, what have you, all of the above, which I'll just put into the category of comp and benefits. You need to be consistent. Like I said, the consistency is always the best defense here, because where people begin to feel like, why me? Why am I not getting that? They may begin to look internally and look at themselves in the mirror and say, well, it must be because I am X, Y, or Z. But if you, on the employer side, have been consistent, ideally based on objective criteria, not subjective 'cause objective, you can defend yourself on that. Let's say if you have certain sales quotas and you give a bonus based on those quotas, you can simply say, well, you didn't hit your numbers, that's why you didn't get it. If it's, well, I like Sally more than I like Joe, well that doesn't sound very objective, right? And you can get into trouble for that. So you know, being consistent, having objective criteria that you're relying on and making these opportunities available to everybody, that's what really makes it an inclusive opportunity.
[00:42:54] Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. All right. And then we're right at the end here. So, let me just tell you real quick if you're keeping up with me. Number five was learning and development. So every learning and development program is an opportunity for people. Be specific. And give to the talent where appropriate and it makes sense. Does that sound good to you?
[00:43:14] Adam Kemper: Yeah, I like it.
[00:43:15] Nicole: All right. And then number six is rewards, recognition and benefits. All staff are to be treated equitably and all staff benefits should be inclusive and specific additional services may be required for specific groups. What about that last thing? Specific additional services may be required for specific groups.
[00:43:35] Adam Kemper: How specific are you getting?
[00:43:37] Nicole: Yeah. Well I think what they're saying here is like you just said about sales, like if there's a commission program or something like that. So there might be different needs within the organization in terms of their reward, their recognition, or their benefits.
[00:43:51] Adam Kemper: Yeah, if the apples are getting what the apples are getting, great, you know, in terms of opportunities and benefits. It doesn't matter if it's different among apples and oranges, if that makes sense. So the way the law looks at employees is, are you truly similarly situated? Because if you have a different role within the company, then it wouldn't even make sense to give you, let's say, the same training on sales if you're in customer service, although you might still need sales for customer service.
[00:44:15] Nicole: Right. Or you're in the manufacturing part of the biz.
[00:44:18] Adam Kemper: Right, right. So, you know, have it make sense and have these people truly be within the same group.
[00:44:24] Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then right before we get to retainer exit, I want to talk about just real quickly, succession planning or looking at high potentials. What are best practices? Those are words we throw around in HR all the time. What are your thoughts on that?
[00:44:41] Adam Kemper: So succession planning as far as new ownership and things like that, or...?
[00:44:45] Nicole: Yeah. Or we've got this VP position and we know that Juan is gonna retire in the next two years. He's even told us. And who are we grooming to take his position? So these people are high potentials or they're the person that we have in line for succession planning. What are your thoughts on all that language and those processes?
[00:45:06] Adam Kemper: So the first thing that comes to mind when we talk about Juan saying, oh, I'm gonna retire in two years. If Juan decides that he changes his mind, that needs to be acceptable by the organization. Okay.
[00:45:18] Nicole: Oh yeah, of course. Mm-hmm.
[00:45:19] Adam Kemper: I see that happen all the time where someone like Juan, and we're just using that name as an example, says, I plan on resigning next year. And then employer takes that face value, which is understandable and starts thinking, well, we need a succession plan. But maybe begins to start saying things they shouldn't say, like, when's your last day? Or Should we plan a retirement party? And maybe those are coming from a genuine place. Also, maybe the employer's also trying to force Juan out a little bit, which could result in age discrimination.
[00:45:53] And let's say Juan changes his mind. He is permitted to do so just like anybody else. Okay? So be open to the potential of a change in someone's mind. Those things happen. We're all human. We can all change our minds. So that's number one. Number two is, let's say if someone in a leadership position is actually leaving. Then of course looking fairly within the organization, internally and potentially externally too. I don't always say you have to hire someone internally or you have to promote someone internally if they're not qualified against what candidates you may have externally. So being fair, it's just fairly looking at all candidates internally and externally. You don't have to go with one or the other. Okay? So I feel like there's that misconception out there, maybe that pressure of feeling forced to hire internally. You can look there, but you don't have to hire there or you don't have to promote there.
[00:46:48] And then from there, really just having that transition in place, really being intentional about what does the transition look like? Having that employee that's departing maybe assist with the transitional process, ideally. Which will make for an amicable separation with that employee too. Having them maybe train the incoming employee so that the transition can be as seamless as possible. And yeah, that's all that comes to mind with that process there.
[00:47:19] Nicole: Okay. All right, fantastic. And then finally we're at number eight, which is retain or exit. Okay. So talent of all types. We should want them to stay with our company. We should act upon feedback and use workplace inclusion programs. We should learn from different staff exits, which we just talked about a few paragraphs back, and avoid exits that are due to lack of inclusion. What are your thoughts on that language? Like it or not like it?
[00:47:46] Adam Kemper: So, I think employers get caught up in shiny new employee syndrome, which is like shiny new object syndrome.
[00:47:53] Nicole: Right?
[00:47:53] Adam Kemper: Have you heard that before? And what they do is they lose sight of their existing workforce because they're always after the shiny new employee. And I think that that can be problematic because then what you start having with your existing workforce is the feeling of resentment. Why are the candidates out there who don't even work for us, why are they spending so much time focused on them versus us? So you never want your workforce to feel that way. So that's why it kind of goes back to that earlier discussion around continuing those same recruitment efforts towards your existing workforce because you're continuing to recruit them to stay with you for as long as possible. And then in terms of just the inclusion language, inclusion is fine. There's not going to be a problem with being inclusive, exclusive has much greater problems. Right. It's just, I think, getting back to what my comment was earlier about the way this administration has an issue with diversity, equity, and inclusion? I don't think their problem is that employers are trying to bring in a diverse or inclusive workforce. I think what they have a problem with is what may look like a reverse discrimination. Maybe hiring certain candidates who may not be as qualified versus others because of their appearance of being more diverse. I think that's what the problem is. So you just need to be mindful of that particular issue because that is an issue, especially during this administration. But there can't be any issue with being inclusive, meaning everybody can be involved in our workforce. Everybody can feel welcomed, and feel like you have a place to stay and work. That should be the goal of every workplace.
[00:49:33] Nicole: Mm. That's awesome. Okay. So let's say that I am going to let somebody go, and as Adam said, all the way through the process, I've been transparent, I've been up front, there's no surprise, all of those things. Is there a proper way to tell 'em it's over?
[00:49:55] Adam Kemper: Call me first.
[00:49:58] Nicole: Tell us your phone number. What's your phone number?
[00:49:59] Adam Kemper: Well, we'll leave it in the comments or in the show notes or however you want to do it. But no, certainly consult with counsel. And this is not for me to sell myself in any way. It's really just because I may see something that you may not be seeing. Okay.
[00:50:14] Nicole: Right.
[00:50:15] Adam Kemper: And it, it typically amounts to timing. Maybe the timing is not right because you may not know that by terminating somebody close in time to, let's say a worker's compensation incident or accident, or a protected complaint expression or some type of issue that arose in the workplace, which grants that employee protection. You may not even know that by terminating the employee now for performance, it can look like the two were causally related. So you may need to be a little bit more patient here if you want to avoid giving that appearance, giving that optic. And also some employers may not even know something like, maybe you shouldn't fire somebody right around the holidays. Which, you know, yes it's legal to do so, but optics purposes, can you wait a week? Should you have maybe done it before? I always talk to employers and they're always like, oh, we should have done this two years ago.
[00:51:17] Nicole: Oh, that's what I hear too. He's been here way too long, is what they say. Right? Yeah.
[00:51:22] Adam Kemper: And I say, you're right. But here we are.
[00:51:24] Nicole: Right.
[00:51:25] Adam Kemper: Okay, here we are. So yes, you should have done this two years ago, but unless you have technology that can reverse time, please show me. But that's irrelevant. That's in the past. So what can we do now? And then just evaluating is it proper to terminate somebody now and then giving that employee a letter.
[00:51:45] So I like the message. I like having the verbal communication, not meeting expectations or as we discussed. I always love that for it to naturally flow from a prior discussion. As you know, we talked about this a few months ago. Or your performance improvement plan, identify these areas- which if you didn't meet those expectations, we'd be left with no choice but to terminate. Here we are, and just have it naturally flow from something that you previously discussed. That way there's no surprise. They know it's coming. They typically know it's coming. Most employees on the performance side, they know it's coming. On the behavior side, that's a little bit more challenging. Because people that behave inappropriately, they don't care to know typically that they're behaving inappropriately. They disagree. It's somebody else's fault most of the time. Right? So that can be a little bit more challenging, but you still can't accept it because what you don't want to do is potentially have this poor behaving employee harass other people or cause other people to leave, just because you're in fear of terminating that person. So you need to manage expectations and then you need to be prepared to terminate. But just spend the 10 to 15 minutes with your employment law attorney getting on the phone and getting a blessing for the termination first.
[00:53:11] Nicole: That's good advice. Good advice. And that is coming from Mr. Kemper, Adam Kemper. And here's the deal. You can find him on Facebook. We're gonna have it in the link down below. His Twitter is @kemperlaborlaw. And then he's on Instagram as well. And it's @ADKthegreat, which I think is absolutely fantastic. And then he's on the, he's on the LinkedIn and he's also got a great YouTube channel where you can probably go in there and put in a keyword and he's got a video about it. So I would not hesitate to get over and make that a favorite. So you've got that, all my good HR leaders out there listening to this. You know, Adam, you're at the bottom of the hour. Is there one more nugget? You know, we just talked about terminating people. Take us back up the feeling scale. How should we look at our employees? What last nugget would you give us about taking our employees through the employee life cycle?
[00:54:06] Adam Kemper: Always remember that each one of these individuals is a human being that has their own emotions, maybe their own families, and that if you're affecting their employment, you're not only affecting their lives, you may be affecting a lot of other lives too. So, just keep that into perspective. If you're not in a position to hire somebody, don't hire that person. And if you're getting ready to terminate somebody, make sure you've done everything you possibly could not to. Unless you absolutely have to. Because you're going to affect that person and so many other lives. So just keep that perspective. We're all human beings. We're all in this together, even though I know that was a cliche during the pandemic, we can still use it now in 2025 and just look out for your fellow human being.
[00:54:52] Nicole: So beautiful. Thank you Adam Kemper for being on the Build A Vibrant Culture podcast. All right, everybody go down, click the like button, say thank you. Write a nice note to Adam. And Adam, I'm so grateful to you. Thank you so much.
[00:55:05] Adam Kemper: Thank you. Thank you. Have a great day.
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