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Welcome to Mostly Books Meets, a weekly podcast by the independent award-winning bookshop, Mostly Books. Nestled in the Oxfordshire town of Abingdon-on-Thames, Mostly Books has been spreading the joy of reading for fifteen years. Whether it’s a book, gift, or card you need the Mostly Books team is always on hand to help. Visit our website.
Welcome to Mostly Books Meets, a podcast by the independent bookshop, Mostly Books. Booksellers from an award-winning indie bookshop chatting books and how they have shaped people's lives, with a whole bunch of people from the world of publishing - authors, poets, journalists and many more. Join us for the journey.
Jack Wrighton - 0:05
Welcome to Mostly Books Meets, the weekly podcast for the incurably bookish. We will be talking to authors and creatives from across the world of publishing and discussing the books they have loved. Looking for a recommendation? Then look no further. Head to your favourite cosy spot and let us pick out your next favourite book. We warmly welcome onto the podcast this week writer Cecile Pin. Cecile's debut novel Wandering Souls was published on the 2nd of March this year. Even before publication Wandering Souls had an impressive cohort of supporters hailing it as an important and sure-footed literary debut. Wandering Souls tells the story of three siblings who flee Vietnam after the terrors of war and find themselves orphaned and seeking a new home in Thatcher's Britain. Cecile welcome to Mostly Books Meets.
Cecile Pin - 0:54
Hi, thank you for having me.
Jack Wrighton - 0:55
Our absolute pleasure. Thank you for joining us. So on Mostly Books Meets, Mostly Books is a small bookshop in Abingdon, Oxfordshire, and we like to sort of turn our guests into booksellers and get them talking about books that have inspired them and books that they have enjoyed as well as their their own book, which we'll get to later. So we like to start by going back to your past, your childhood and any books that you loved then. Am I right in saying you grew up in, was it Paris in New York, that was where you spent a lot of your childhood?
Cecile Pin - 1:28
Yes, mostly in Paris, so I mostly read in French when I was little. I didn't really learn English until I was nine. So most of my childhood books were French books, so Tom-Tom Et Nana, which is kind of like a comic book series in French and then I think the first books that I read in English were Roald Dahl books. So Matilda and all that which I used to really love as well and then I think the first kind of grown-up book that I read was To Kill a Mockingbird which I remember being very proud that I'd managed to read in English.
Jack Wrighton - 2:05
Yes I am I think that was probably the first kind of serious book if that's how you can call it. Of course you know children's books can be very sort of serious and deal with a lot of serious issues but I think yes that was kind of the first one for me and you do feel there is this kind of sense of pride because it has this reputation as kind of you know a very sort of important serious book and so when you read it you sort of feel that yes I'm a you know I'm reading grown-up books now. Am I right in saying in France there's a sort of great tradition of graphic novels, of sort of very visual storytelling because I remember I went to a French bookshop in Bordeaux once and they had a brilliant graphic novel section. I was really envious because you don't see that as commonly in the UK. A lot of like visual storytelling I found.
Cecile Pin - 2:55
Yeah it's really big and I think even for animation I think we're the, for instance the third biggest country that produces animation films after the US and Japan which is interesting but yeah but we love graphic novels even in very small French towns you'll often have a store just for graphic novels which is quite amazing I think so and you have the Persepolis books and then yeah lots of, it's very common for adults to read graphic novels.
Jack Wrighton - 3:23
I think we could do with seeing yeah more of that in the UK because there's certainly a growing population among the younger generation but you know there's been some beautiful graphic novels that I've read as a grown-up. One is Persepolis which I believe is that that's French originally isn't it that was translated and that's just you know it's so it's so beautiful and I think it's just another great way of telling a great story so I'd kind of like to see that tradition make its way over the channel. I think it would go down well and were you always as a child into words, into reading? Was that something you've had since a young age or did that sort of come about later on?
Cecile Pin - 4:02
It came about a bit later to be honest. I struggled, I think I was having a bit of concentration problems and when I was a child I struggled to really get immersed in a book or even you know going to the, I would sometimes go to the theater with my school and I would really struggle to stay focused for the of the whole play. So I didn't always do the readings I had to do at school. You know I remember but I did really, when I did manage it I really loved it you know I grew up reading like Émile Zola and Gilbert and all those classic French writers but it's really I think when I went to university and when I stopped, when I finished university that I really rediscovered a lot of reading I think.
Jack Wrighton - 4:44
Yes and I think yeah it's nice to talk about that because I think people can sort of expect writers to have been you know I was a baby and I was reading books and I was always really good with you know reading and writing really into it but actually you find that everyone has their own sort of journey with reading I think you know some I wasn't much of a reader when I was younger but now you know you can't keep me away from books so you know I think it's nice to kind of focus on that because I think some particularly we get parents in the shop who get worried that you know oh my kid's not reading as much as my other kid and we're saying it's fine like you know it will it's just finding what you, yeah what you enjoy and in terms of you know storytelling would you say even if you weren't sort of reading much have you sort of always been interested in in telling stories or writing things down or did that again was that a kind post-university thing?
Cecile Pin - 5:36
I think so. I loved creative writing when I was a child. It's something that I think my teachers thought was one of my strongest things that I was better at. I was really bad at math and physics and all that but they would sort of write on my note cards like 'good at creative writing not really good at the rest' but so I really enjoyed it. It's just something I had the confidence to do it professionally and then I did more like non-fiction writing. I did a philosophy at uni and then I did a bit of journalism as well while at uni. So I think I was more interested in maybe going more into future writing or essay writing. But then I think joining publishing and again reading more fiction as an adult, I became a bit less intimidated by the idea and I think think also I just stopped caring as much about what people would think about my my writing and I just sort of went for it.
Jack Wrighton - 6:32
That's so interesting because that's such a common theme with other guests that we've had that the not almost the not caring and of course they do you know all writers I think must care because obviously you know you have to kind of go through it with a fine tooth comb but that sense of no I'll just focus on the story and then sort of release it you know into the world. So Wandering Souls then did that come about that time when you sort of started thinking actually do you want this is something I can do as well?
Cecile Pin - 7:01
It did so because Wandering Souls is partly based on family history I think I always knew I was going to write about some of the themes in the books about getting these book people but at first I thought I was going to write about it in a non-fiction way. I was maybe going I was interested in writing maybe a feature about Vietnamese book people and interviewing people and just writing a long article about the plight of the Vietnamese refugees. But then I think I just began writing those characters and made research and then figured out a way to include some nonfiction bits and some fiction bits which I thought was... I love books that kind of combine different genres and so on. So it came about quite organically in a weird way. I wouldn't actually like I've sort of blocked out in my head exactly how it happened because it was during the pandemic and it was a bit chaotic but I think it came about from just finding that perfect moment when I suddenly had more time because of the pandemic and I was gaining in confidence and I felt like I was ready to tell that story as well.
Jack Wrighton - 8:07
Yes you can really see that in the book as well because there's those wonderful you know not to sort of give too much away for those listening who are going to read the book but there's different sort of threads to it and there is the kind of journalistic element, you know in terms of the material that you come across when reading which gives it a nice kind of the lens of the book changes you know sometimes you're following the siblings but then sometimes you're sort of seeing it from a different angle so it's nice that you've sort of tied you know your interest there together because I think that you know when a writer does that I think it really reflects in how readable the book is because you could sort of sense that the writer was you know having a maybe not a good time but was you know enjoying the process that it was kind of yeah chimed with them.
Cecile Pin - 8:53
Yeah, I think that's so important always too you can always tell when a writer is having fun with the book and I definitely… I mean not all was fun, there were some hard times and a few cries but mostly I just kind of wrote the book that I wanted to read.
Jack Wrighton - 9:14
And did you find with the… because you've got you know you were saying it was based on you know slightly on family history and obviously you've got the as I said the sort of journalistic element there… did you find that fiction was also helpful for filling in those gaps because of course when it comes to you know not everyone's story around the world gets told obviously a lot of people's stories kind of slip through the backs or just kind of enter family kind of lore and did you find fiction as a kind of a useful way of kind of piecing sort of piecing things together if that question makes sense?
Cecile Pin - 9:48
Yeah definitely I there's still a lot I don't know about my mum's story so my mom she's yet to meet she was in layoff at the time and then she spent some time at refugee camp in Thailand and then she moved to France in the late 70s. But we don't really talk about it that much and I learned a lot about my family history through bits by bits stuff that my mom would tell me throughout the years and that my uncles would tell me, which again that fragmented structure is sort of you know the same as in the book right? And then also through doing my own independent research and reading newspaper articles and national archives about getting these build people. So I think fiction was definitely helpful in filling in the gaps of that story and sort of creating a full novel out of it and also mentally I think it was good for me to keep a little bit of distance between real life and fiction and I saw that I set the book at a refugee camp in Hong Kong and then in the UK instead of Thailand and France to really, you know, just divert the two stories and make the characters fictional in the setting. Well, the setting is real but the story's fictional.
Jack Wrighton - 10:57
Yeah, absolutely I think yeah that must be yeah quite important and that was my next question actually was the interesting of you know why Britain had been then chosen as the as the kind of location.
Cecile Pin - 11:07
Yeah, I think well I've been in the UK I've been in London for almost 10 years now since I was 18 so I'm a way I'm in a kind of in this country that's not really my home country and especially I think post Brexit I've also had those sort of conflicted feelings of whether I belong in the UK, if I'm wanted here, which is of course a very different migration story than the ones that the characters were going through. But I was also quite interested in exploring those feelings and those emotions that come with being strangers in a strange land and in London. So that's one of the reasons why I set up the book in the UK was also to explore those feelings that I was having and also, I think I was just, I thought there was not that many stories exploring the lives of Vietnamese people in the UK. No one really knows that it happened and that there was that wave of refugees coming during the Margaret Thatcher days and generally speaking, I think there's not that many Southeast Asian stories that take place in the UK. There's, you know, Xialu Guo and a lot of poets like Will Harris and so on, but it's something that I thought there was just a bit of a gap in the market for it and I was keen to write about it.
Jack Wrighton - 12:23
Yes to add your story to that gap, yeah absolutely, yeah I think that's something that really stands out with the book is actually a story that I think for many people reading will be kind of completely new to them but also it's interesting that you say that about you sort of processing your own feelings about the UK today because reading the segments that are in the UK actually it felt you know it's one of those things of ah yes this happened but also it felt like oh but this also could be today that mixture of sort of hostility but also in some places kindness and accepting and that kind of duality of you know where… you know which side is it you kind of one thing want something to be one or the other but of course nothing in life is there's kind of a lot of complicated there it just felt really reading it I was like but you know this could be you know yesterday as opposed to you know 30 or so years ago.
Cecile Pin - 13:13
Yeah thank you. It's definitely true. I didn't want to have just negativity in the book or just positivity. It was important for me to show that everyone had different opinions about the refugee crisis and you had some people that were very welcoming and I read a lot of testimonies of Vietnamese boat people who came to the UK and lots of them said that they felt very welcomed. So I wanted to show that side as well but then course there to be expected there was lots of racist incidents and there's one chapter I write when they would go to the market and the sellers wouldn't want them to touch the fruits themselves which is something that I read really happened and yeah I really wanted to show sort of both sides and both reactions.
Jack Wrighton - 13:58
Yes that scene is one of those bits where you're reading and you sort of want you wish you could like drag someone out of a book and shout at them and be like how do you know what are you doing? Like how dare you! Which is again a good sign of when fiction has that effect on you and you want to you're having a kind of physical reaction to it that's a real testament to the book itself. So you said you've been in London since you were 18 because you came here to study at university and it was philosophy you studied wasn't it? And you said you sort of discovered reading kind of after university, you know, do you… obviously you have a book out now which I imagine means you're quite busy but have there been any books that you've read in the past year that have really sort of stood out for you that you've really enjoyed?
Cecile Pin - 14:42
Yes lots of them. I've been reading lots of debut novels recently especially for authors that I'm doing events with. I read Fire Rush by Jacqueline Crooks which came out also last week actually the same day as me and I thought that was a really amazing book and it's funny because it takes place also in London during the same era as Wandering Souls in the sort of late 70s early 80s, but it's about Yamaye who's a Jamaican British woman and she loves music and so on and then she kind of gets taken into this journey which brings her back to her roots and I don't want to spoil too much but it's a really really wonderful book that has a a lot of musicality and rhythm uh running through it which is which I thought was amazing otherwise I've been I went through a bit of a greek myth retelling phase, because for a woman it was like all I could process. My brain, I read The Silence of the Girls by Pat Barfield. I really enjoyed. Piranha Sea by Susan Croft as well I really loved. Yeah I need to like look at my reading list. It's all there but lots of great books.
Jack Wrighton - 15:48
It's difficult isn't it to it happens in the bookshop all the time. The customers will be like what have you read recently? My mind goes so blank. I'm like I have I feel like I haven't read anything for five years! I said like you can't you can't yeah grab your you know grab anything from your memory.
Cecile Pin - 16:32
Yes did you find also kind of when you were writing that I imagine you know you're doing all this research was it nice to sort of reach out to books that you know were quite separate from what you were doing, you know for instance your kind of Greek you know retellings which obviously you know might have universal themes but feel a bit more escapist if you know if you're writing something which at the time I imagine when you're writing it's all quite close you know it feels yeah for sure yeah yeah and I struggled when I was actually writing the book I did struggle to read I think and just to find a time especially because I had a full-time job as well at the time so, I think I would before starting writing the book I went on a sort of reading binge when I read a lot and um a lot of those books um inspired some of the being the instructor of the book. I read lots of Maggie Nelson and Max Porter and those writers who sort of play with form and then you know XunWang and Cathy Park Hong and so it was such good inspiration to read them and then when I actually wrote the book I didn't read and then after writing the book I read completely different things like we're telling and just like yeah escapism and very sort of glossy books with some kind of mythical elements which I think to kind of get me out of my own head which was really fun.
Jack Wrighton - 17:26
Yes, yeah, once you've sort of finished writing do you almost feel there has to be a kind of bit of mental spring cleaning because you know you must feel like you know these characters you know so intimately and you know these lives you must need that something that kind of marks it as a kind of a break like oh I've done that now and now I need to kind of you know clear the brain out and you know move on something else?
Cecile Pin - 17:52
I think so and especially because this story was quite personal to write and it was writing about tough stuff, you know, just learning also about the Vietnamese refugees and what they went through and you know there was a lot of death and sexual assault that would happen on the journey and so it was it did take a bit of a mental toll on me at some times. So I think once I finished and once I done the edits and so on I sort of wanted to read more of maybe like-hearted things and yeah have a little bit of a break from that story.
Jack Wrighton - 18:27
Susannah Clark's a good choice for that because she spins such a good yarn because Piranesi is such a, I don't know, like a you know, an interesting book it's you know it's not like anything I've read so you know.
Cecile Pin - 18:43
That world yeah she just managed to create such a world that I'd never kind of witnessed before in literature so I think what she did and also it's quite a short book so I think what she managed to do in the in just a few you know hundred I think it's like 200 something pages but yeah I think that was really amazing.
Jack Wrighton - 19:01
And do you this might be a mean question because you know your debut novel has only just come out but you know doing that reading as well does that get you kind of thinking about oh well actually you know next I might tell this story or next I might do this you know, are there plans for a next book or is that am I sort of jumping the gun and you're thinking no no no let me let me sit back and think first.
Cecile Pin - 19:24
No, no you're not jumping the gun I have a typical in the US so okay there has to be a second book so and I'm I'm slowly it's been busy kind of doing promotion and writing sort of feature articles for book one so I find it hard to kind of have the promotional side of me and then kind of focus on the writing so I haven't worked as much on it as I'd like to but I think this summer is really when I'm going to start fully writing it and again I'd like to do some reading before I really get into it just to get some inspiration and to get into the creative mindset but I think it'll probably be more contemporary than the first book but yeah I can't say too much about it because I don't know too much about it yet.
Jack Wrighton - 20:14
So that's okay you're in the sort of the souping period at the moment I imagine it's just kind of like ideas and you know and it will form into everything.
Cecile Pin - 20:20
I'm excited though.
Jack Wrighton - 20:21
Yes yeah it must be exciting and how is it because of course you know you've been with this you said this was a sort of a pandemic book as it were as it's quite interesting this season which we're recording at the moment, I feel we've particularly hit now a lot of the books that we talked about last year kind of started just before the pandemic whereas now we're hitting all of the… well it was the pandemic and so I decided now was the time to sit down. You know you spent a long time with this book and now it's out with the public you know the public and sort of picking that up. How does that feel for you as a writer?
Cecile Pin - 20:58
Well it's very surreal. I - because I again because I worked in publishing I had a few friends and colleagues who had gotten their hands on proofs on early copies of the books and now it's, you know, my boyfriend's parents have read it and, you know, like childhood friends and I was every time someone tells me they've read the book, I always think, how dare you? How did you get your hand on one? Like, I find it so kind of scandalous, but also just very flattering that people would take the time to read it and yeah, I've started getting some Instagram posts of strangers buying the book in-store. Again, I find it so touching that people would buy in this economy as well. I'm working my own hardback about what I wrote. I just find it very flattering and humbling. But I do think I've a little bit dissociated from it and I haven't fully realised it yet because I think it's quite a scary thing to happen, isn't it that people are going to be judging your writing and will have opinions about it and it's like the story isn't fully mine anymore and people will sort of have their own interpretations and their thoughts on the characters and I think that can be a bit daunting but I'm trying not to be too worried about that and to kind of just let it be as well.
Jack Wrighton - 22:21
I think that's quite a good attitude to have because of course it does become its kind of own living thing doesn't it once it's out there with the public and you know the advice I hear other writers always say is you know it's great when the good reviews come in but as a rule like you know don't worry about reviews you know that's not you know because it must be even the good ones I feel it must be daunting because it's just you're thinking oh wow like you know someone's as you said invested in this book and then they've taken time to kind write a review you know that's a lot of kind of mental space given over to your story which is such a kind of like an honor but also I think if you kind of considered every review that came in it would get too emotional you'd be like I can't deal with this all these people have read my story yeah it must be.
Cecile Pin - 23:09
Yeah it's a lot but no it's been great so far and you know I've come across a few like negative Goodreads things but I'm trying not to look at them anymore.
Jack Wrighton - 23:19
No no no get off log out of Goodreads right now. Goodreads has its place but it's a bit of a dumpster fire sometimes because it doesn't matter the book you can find someone who you know… and of course you know did you feel you know you said you worked in publishing what was your role in publishing if you don't mind me asking what were you doing there?
Cecile Pin - 23:43
I was an editorial assistant at Vintage.
Jack Wrighton - 23:48
And did you feel that kind of put you in good stead for your own sort of writing process and kind of knowing what to expect once that ball started rolling?
Cecile Pin- 23:57
It did. I think it was overall a pretty positive thing for me. It helped I think make the process less daunting. I sort of always knew what was going on and also as I said I think it also allowed me to sort of see that there was a bit of a gap in the market for the kind of story I wanted to tell which made me, even when I was feeling very insecure in my writing and the way I telling the story I would sort of focus on the fact that I knew that there was a growing interest in those stories and people wanted to know more about the East, South-East Asian diaspora in the UK. I think it was also a bit, it added a bit of stress sometimes because I was still aware again, like you know, that's the other side of things, that I was still aware all the time of what was happening and sometimes I would see a book that had some similarities to my acquisitions and would struggle trying to publish her and so on and I would be like oh my god maybe when my book is on submission it will you know people who actually want to buy it or something like that so I would I would always and again I was trying not to think about my own book because I wanted I wanted to be professional like in front of writing like it was hard not to kind of get in my own head sometimes, but I think Fourth Estate was a really great publisher and so I didn't have because again at first I was worried that I would be very on it and be like annoying about cover designs and mail outs and publicity and marketing plans but actually they were just really good about everything and I really trusted them from the get-go. So I think pretty early on I relaxed and sort of let forth the state my publisher do their own thing and it was honestly quite a smooth smooth sailing process so I've been lucky.
Jack Wrighton - 25:41
The anticipation was the stressful bit but actually once you were there you were like okay fine this is okay and if you don't mind me asking, so do you sort of see yourself now sort of writing as well as working in publishing or is one sort of taking over from the other since the book's out?
Cecile Pin - 26:00
Yeah so I actually left my job in October so now I'm writing full-time It was just getting to the point where especially publishing people, it's a great industry, but I was finding myself having to do some work over the weekend and so on, just because I had to read manuscripts and it was just very stressful and a lot and I loved my team and I miss it a little bit sometimes, but I just thought this is my one shot at publishing my first book and I really want to do it well and focus on promotion and so on and then I have a second book as well that I need to write. So I thought maybe one day I'll have to go back and that would be fine but for now I am going to focus on writing at least for the time being.
Jack Wrighton - 26:46
Yes and for our listeners I think it's you know kind of good to for those who are not sort of familiar with the kind of the mechanics of having you know a book coming out you know there's a lot of expectations for you for instance doing this podcast but you'll be doing sort of shop visits and things like that. There's quite an events sort of lineup, isn't there? You're sort of dragged out to various different places to kind of, even if it's just to sign your book, so that's quite time consuming as well.
Cecile Pin - 27:15
Yes, there is that. And I'm lucky that I even go to the US as well. So I was in the United States last week in New York in Seattle, and then I'm gonna go back there in May as well to do an event. So it's been very exciting and then I've written a few features and personal essays for our one for Gal-Dem recently, for example. So it's, yeah, you wouldn't think but you kind of think once you're done writing the book and you're done with the edits, you're kind of done. But then there's this whole other side that comes with being a published writer, which is more and more sort of social facing, which has been interesting. I'm still learning about it and I'm still learning I think about my kind of author persona that makes sense and yeah, it's been fun I'm enjoying it so yeah.
Jack Wrighton - 28:06
Yes it's an interesting industry always to be in from whatever angle whether working publishing bookshops or writing I think you do meet a lot of you know interesting people there'll be a point I imagine where you'll probably be sick of your own book just because you know if you're writing like things about it, talking about it, you'll think 'oh I've heard myself say this so many times' I'm sure that hasn't happened yet but I imagine for writers that must be you know having to kind of go over that ground and basically you are booksellers as well because you know your main job becomes kind of selling your own book, you know the days I think of writing a book and then it was just out there and a writer could spend their time almost kind of mysteriously you know in the background. I feel are quite sort of long gone the writer has to kind of have this sort of public-facing element as well.
Cecile Pin - 28:59
Yeah for sure and now it's social media as well and um yeah I know obviously writers don't have to be on social media like Sally Rooney isn't on social media but for me I find it quite helpful to to interact with readers directly on those websites so that's yeah that's a whole new side of things that I'm also learning about as well.
Jack Wrighton - 29:19
Absolutely. Are you dare I ask so you're on TikTok? Are you doing the TikTok thing?
Cecile Pin - 29:23
I'm not. It's kind of like the barrier that I set myself not to be on TikTok.
Jack Wrighton - 29:26
No TikTok, yeah.
Cecile Pin - 29:27
Yeah, maybe one day but for now I'm trying to resist.
Jack Wrighton - 29:33
I do the social media in the shop as well and we have a TikTok and it's a lot. It's a real, it's a lot. It's a lot to deal with but yes, publishing's obsessed with TikTok at the moment. That's the kind of thing. And then for your, you know, once the book was out there, obviously one of the kind of earlier things that happen is it's sent out to kind of other writers for their kind of thoughts on it. You know you've got Ocean Vuong as you know this as one of the kind of pull quotes on the on the cover of the book. How does it feel when kind of you know writers that you've kind of either enjoyed yourself or kind of you know have this quite big sort of platform and a kind of well-respected you know as saying these amazing things about your book it must be so exciting.
Cecile Pin - 30:13
Oh yeah it was so exciting and I really wasn't expecting that type of love. I think Ocean Vuong blurred it he was my first blurb actually which was pretty surreal and I think he… I went and I had no expectations because he doesn't blurb a lot so I thought hey we'll send him a copy it's fine he probably gets like 500 copies a day of different books but and then I think he blurbed it in a week or something so that was very um and I'm so grateful because I think it probably kind of changed the trajectory of the book just to have his name on the cover and then yeah, so he was the first one and then yeah, they just sort of started flowing in and you know, we got Jorgas Valor and Tahil and you know, all those amazing writers, Kash Oswald and it's just, yeah, I think it just made me feel more confident in the book. I mean, it was, the edits were done, but in my head I was thinking like, no one's gonna read this. No one's going to like my book. But so I think that was just a bit of a confidence boost and I was very just very touched really that people took the time to read early copies and to support it. So that was kind of one of the highlights I think of the whole publishing process.
Jack Wrighton - 31:28
Absolutely and I think you know the book world we can be guilty sometimes of you know we love a kind of a category in order to make kind of setting a book sort of easier because you can sort of categorise it and of course debut author is kind of you know the big oh a big you know debut here debut there you know that it's a big word that's used a lot but you know as a debut author I can imagine maybe that gets frustrating because it's sort of you know it kind of marks you as oh you're sort of new you know that's the kind of the thing but I don't know having those quotes from your peers must be a kind of nice you know reminder of no just like them you are a writer and it doesn't matter if it's your first book or your fifth you know it's just you're all doing the same thing it must sort of I don't know feel very welcoming I feel.
Cecile Pin - 32:10
Yeah exactly and it's yeah it's that thing of being taken seriously in some ways and people yeah taking your work seriously and not just as a sort of debut but so that's yeah it was very very heartwarming, very happy.
Jack Wrighton - 32:28
And in terms of you know reading you know we've talked about things that you read when you were a child sort of things that you've read more recently. Are there any sort of books for you that stand out that you've read that you feel had quite a sort of profound effect on you whether you know it just it really connected with you and you thought wow this book really speaks to something which I haven't come across before or whether a book that you know inspired you to do something you know are there any sort of big titles that if someone was kind of to ask what are your kind of all-time favorite books are there any titles that come to mind?
Cecile Pin - 33:03
Sure yeah. I think Human Acts by Han Kang is one that had a really big effect on me. It's about an uprising in Korea that takes place I believe in the 80s and then in like my book it sort of starts with the death of one of the characters and then it's different voices trying to reckon and would be the aftermath of that uprising and it was the death of the character and there's also the soul of the deceased character which has a chapter in the book. So I think that was, that book had a big effect on me both in the story, it's a very sad and profound story, and also in the way she told the story with the fragmented structure and playing with form and nothing at the end. The writer even has an appearance and she talks and Han Kang speaks in her voice. So I think that was very, a book that I think made me feel more free in the way to tell a story and I think because I grew up reading very thin like classical French like novels that had quite a, you know, that were amazing. I mean I love Zola and Encelpe and Michel Rigaud and so on but um I think in my head I grew up thinking that if I ever were to write I would have to write a book like that was just a very sort of classic structure and then I read yeah Hong Kong and the right parts by Maggie Nelson which is in the epigraph as well and just yeah books that didn't really fit in one category I think had a really big impact on me in the last few years.
Jack Wrighton - 34:30
Yes I noticed the red parts because I'm a big Maggie Nelson fan I loved them the Argonauts and Bluettes are kind of yeah favorites of mine. Yes and that's a really interesting point because I think many people grow up you know and particularly when you're a young reader you sort of feel like you have to read the classics. I remember I tried to read Bleak House by Dickens and I'm sorry to Dickens fans out there but I'll never go back to it. You know you can get this idea of what a book, a novel looks like and I imagine you know the sort of francophone tradition you know these kind of big quite serious texts you know which are you know beautiful but you know they have like a structure and they do this and they do that so yes that must be such an exciting moment of kind of coming across a book where there are no rules you know the rules don't exist, you can do exactly what you want.
Cecile Pin - 35:33
Yes exactly, it was very freeing for me I think.
Jack Wrighton - 35:36
And of course you know both of those particularly with Maggie Nelson there's kind of like a almost the feeling of kind of poetry to it in the sense of a lot is said in the gaps as much as said is in the words which I feel is reflected in Wandering Souls as well because you've got the story and then you've got these kind of… again without sort of giving too much away, but you've got these kind of fragments or these little scenes or kind of newspaper clippings and it's, you know, they tell a story but it's also kind of the gaps that tell a story as well if that makes sense. You might be sitting there thinking "he doesn't know what he's on about. That's the thought that comes to mind.
Cecile Pin - 36:15
Yes I think I wanted to leave some things left unsaid in the book and I wanted to kind of interact with the reader in that way and it's also the book I see the book as a bit of an invitation for readers to make their own research about Vietnamese book people when and it's funny I remember when I first submitted the books my agent didn't know if Operation Wandering Soul was real or not which is for readers who haven't read the book it's a sort of psychology or operation that took place during the Vietnam war which I write a bit about in the book. So yeah and I think the blend of fiction, non-fiction, the book also invites that question of well was this real or is this fictional and I like the idea that some readers will then go on the internet and google things and make their own independent research after reading the book.
Jack Wrighton - 37:04
That was absolutely me last week googling Operation Wandering Souls because you know with that and that chapter is brilliant because it's done you know it's both nerve-wracking, it's funny there's a kind of you know a kind of almost a sort of comical element to it as well and as you said it's that line where you think wait was this real and then you look it up and again without giving away exactly what it is for the reader you know for those like myself who came across into it, you know, who are coming into it, who are not aware of this. But yeah, it's incredibly eye-opening and as you say, it does encourage that it encourages your own research, because there I was sort of, you know, looking up, absolutely, you know, sort of flabbergasted and shocked at what people will do in the scenario of war and kind of, you know, really seeing how war is a kind of attack on all senses, you know, and on a culture as well, was incredibly eye-opening so that's absolutely done that if that's like your aim that's you know for an ignorant person like myself it was very eye-opening and you know that's again a kind of a great… one of the many great elements of the book and are you seeing that in terms of different responses to the book depending on you know those obviously coming from it who may have their own family histories that relate to the story in the book you know are their reactions quite different from people who don't have any sort of personal experience and kind of coming into it blind? So you're seeing kind of different reactions there.
Cecile Pin - 38:35
Yes it's been quite interesting to see people's different opinions. I think agents saying we don't want the voice of the ghost to die in the book, we don't like it and some other people saying we want more of it. So it's all it's reading is so subjective isn't it and I think some people, maybe readers of non-fiction, will be more attracted to the more non-fiction bits of the books and some people want more of the novel narrative parts and so it's been it's a bit of a Rorschach test in a way I think you know you kind of get rid of the book when you like the most and then I've had some really heartwarming moments where I've had people come up to me and say you know the story of my family and then people telling me you know my mum's came to London in the 60s, 70s, like in the book and it's always very emotional and I always have to stop myself from having a little cry because it's like one of the reasons why I wrote the book is so that those people, the Vietnamese people who came to the UK could feel seen so it's been a very positive reaction and I was very scared about those people who feel very close to the story, how they would react to the book and I mean I'm I'm sure some people don't like it but so far I've had just some really really nice welcoming responses to the book and my mum read it as well and she was very gracious and I think she really liked it. I think people like that it's even though especially the first half is quite sad it ends on quite a hopeful positive note which I think people have liked so far.
Jack Wrighton - 40:16
And you know hopes are incredibly, you know, while it's good to kind of, you know, focus on kind of the injustices that have been done in the past and you know because I think it can in fiction and reading lead to kind of like an expanded worldview and kind of being more accepting. But you know if you focus on those too much, you know, I'm sure we've all read books where at the end you sort of feel that, "Oh what's the point? What's the point in anything?" It's, you know, but so that that hope has a real, you know, it's really powerful. It has, you know, sort of drives you forward.
Cecile Pin - 40:49
Thank you, yes I agree.
Jack Wrighton - 40:50
And I'm glad that they kept Dao in, yes, because it's something you know I spoke to for that last season I spoke to Maggie Shipstead who did Great Circle and you know she was saying her book has kind of two sort of storylines in it that run parallel and she had people who said you know for some for one storyline they loved and the other they were like not sort of fussed by and again I think it's a sign of a book that's doing something really interesting that kind of people can really connect to one part and then find other parts you know they enjoy them but they don't. I think it shows that a story is doing some you know it's doing multiple things at once which is really really tricky you know how you go about that I'm not sure.
Cecile Pin -41:34
I think so and I think especially as a debut writer you want to just sort of listen to everyone's advice and take all the edits and I think especially because I'd worked in publishing I knew how important it was to listen to edits and take them in. But also you also have to trust your instincts a little bit and trust that something you want to keep in and something you don't want to change. So I think it can be a bit hard to find that balance but I think we did good in the end and I chose my agent Matt because he, I think we had quite a close vision for the book aligned quite a lot and I think for writers looking for agents I think it's always worth making sure that your vision aligns with the one of your agents as well.
Jack Wrighton - 42:25
Absolutely. And so finally now, if you've talked about books that have inspired you, books that you liked as a kid, and we've talked about Wandering Souls now, I'm going to give you a tricky task now which I know is quite cruel to give a writer to do but if you were working in Mostly Books here and you were recommending books to someone and someone said 'oh could you tell me about your book?' and you're pulling Wandering Souls off the shelf, what would you say to that person? How would you introduce someone to your book?
Cecile Pin -42:54
Of course, yes I would say Wandering Souls is about a family of Vietnamese folk people who come to the UK during the Thatcher era and find themselves in a really new land, trying and having to make new lives for themselves at a very young age and also dealing with a lot of grief and loss and it's also a story about hope and about overcoming trauma and [LAUGHTER]... It's been a long promotion circle.
Jack Wrighton - 43:28
It is, yeah. It must be difficult.
Cecile Pin - 43:30
But yeah, and I would say it's also, it also includes some real-life documentation and different voices and I think that you should read it.
Jack Wrighton - 43:48
Absolutely. Well, I think unfortunately, I think that's brought us to the end. It's been lovely talking to you but it would be great if you wouldn't mind if we left it on a reading from Wandering Souls if you would like to read a segment for us.
Cecile Pin - 44:03
Of course, yes. So I'm actually going to read the chapter which opens part two about Operation Wandering Souls so just to give you a little taste of the operation. So this is Chapter 9, 1967, Operation Wandering Soul Part 1, Vietnam. Within a jungle whose name they don't know, Private Jackson and Private First Class Miller are slowly advancing, pushing aside branches with the tips of their rifles. Their faces are covered in acne,, brought about by the heat on their still-adolescent skins. Miller is holding the trigger, ready to pull at the slightest unusual sound, a whisper of breath or the tread of a book that is not theirs. They're hunched, on edge, eyes darting, stomachs rumbling and back sweating. "Are you okay?" Jackson mouths. Miller nods, although he's aware his heavy breathing and dripping forehead is giving him away. He's carrying a portable PA speaker with both arms, weighing what he imagined the baby elephant must weigh. They both think this is a…. Luton Smith had come to see them that morning at breakfast. Chopped ham, eggs and powdered milk. "Boy, do I have a mission for you," he told them, smirking, which was never a good sign with Luton Smith. He presented the speaker to them, pointing to the nearby jungle. "You need to go in there, drop it, not too far from camp, and press play." He took a cassette tape from his pocket with a label on its spine that read "Ghost tape #10." Smith inserted the tape into the player and looked at the two privates, laughing at their bafflement. "Operation Wandering Soul," he said, to scare the living shit out of those ghosts. The thought they could tell delighted him. Miller and Jackson knew not to ask any questions and they obeyed the order.
Jack Wrighton - 46:02
Thank you so much. That was a beautiful reading. Thank you so much for joining us on Mostly Books Meets.
Cecile Pin - 46:07
Thank you for having me.
Jack Wrighton - 46:09
It was so much fun and just to let everyone know, Wandering Souls is out now. It's available at Mostly Books both in-store and online or from your local independent bookshop. Cecile Pin, thank you so much for joining us.
Cecile Pin - 46:22
Thank you. Bye everyone.
Jack Wrighton - 46:24
Mostly Books Meets is presented and produced by the bookselling team at Mostly Books, an award-winning bookshop located in Abingdon, Oxfordshire. All of the titles mentioned in this episode are available through our shop or your preferred local independent. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out our previous guests which include some of the most exciting voices in the world of books. Thanks for listening and happy reading.