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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
SHAE HILL:
Welcome to Therapy and Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shay Hill, and I'm so glad you're listening today. This is our final episode in the Fight For Your Family series we've been in, and I'm excited to introduce you to some new faces, Sissy Goff and David Thomas.
SHAE:
Drawing from more than 50 years of combined counseling experience at DayStar Counseling Ministries in Nashville, Sissy and David provide parents with practical tools to cultivate capability in their children, an internal confidence that empowers them to face adversity with resilience. With a compassionate, research-informed approach, Sissy and David show that raising capable kids isn't about shielding them from struggles, but rather preparing them to meet it with courage. They also have a brand-new book that you'll hear about in this episode, and I know you're just going to love getting to know them.
SHAE:
As you fight for your family this season, maybe you're inspired to ask a question that sounds something like this: "How do I really help the young people in my life who are struggling both mentally and emotionally?"
SHAE:
If that's you, whether you're a parent, a grandparent, or someone who just feels called to help, we're here to help you. That's why I wanna tell you about the Youth Mental Health Coach program from the American Association of Christian Counselors and Light University. It is a biblically based, clinically excellent training that equips you with practical, real-world tools to support youth and their families.
SHAE:
You'll learn how to recognize 15 of the most common mental health challenges facing young people today, including anxiety, depression, digital addiction, and emotional regulation. You'll also learn how to respond with care, when to step in, and when to refer to a professional. Right now, you can receive a full-tuition scholarship and get started when you pay a one-time $54 technology fee.
SHAE:
Friend, this is the training that will give you the confidence to make a real difference. Learn more and apply at mentalhealthcoach.org, or you can visit the link in our show notes.
SHAE:
And before we jump in, here are just a few reminders. We are launching a brand-new podcast exclusive segment in 2026 called Listener Mail, brought to you by Compassion International.
SHAE:
These segments will include a question pulled from one of our listeners just like you and an answer from either Lisa, Jim, or Dr. Joel. Tune in on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and make sure you stay listening all the way through the end so you don't miss this special segment of each episode.
SHAE:
And lastly, we want to know how Therapy and Theology is helping you work through what you're walking through. So leave us a review or a comment on YouTube and tell us all about it. Okay, now on to today's conversation.
SHAE:
Well, friends, we have such a treat today on Therapy and Theology. We have some new faces that I'm so excited to introduce you to. Um, and rather than read their bios, I'm just gonna let them tell you who they are. So David and Sissy, will you guys, um, give our Therapy and Theology listeners just a rundown on who you are and what you do?
DAVID THOMAS:
We'd love to. And, and we'd first say we're so happy to be with you all.
SISSY GOFF:
Yes, we are.
DAVID:
Thank you for this kind invitation. And I'm David, this is Sissy, and we are the co-executive directors of an amazing place in Nashville called Daystar Counseling Ministries, where we've had the great privilege of practicing as therapists for over three decades now. And our practice is unique in that we serve just the pediatric population, so our whole focus is kids, adolescents, and families.
DAVID:
And we do the work a little different in that we're in a house rather than an office, which was a very intentional decision for us. We have currently six therapy dogs on staff, which are hands down the kids' favorite therapists in the building. The rest of us are just really glad we get to work with them.
DAVID:
And-
SISSY:
One is in the room if she pops her little head in.
DAVID:
She may make a guest appearance here in a few minutes.
SHAE:
That's the best.
DAVID:
It’s very possible. And out of that work, we have had the great privilege of writing some books and hosting a podcast, and just getting to travel to different spots and talk with parents about what we're learning every day, just sitting front row with kids and families, and are really grateful for the work we get to do, thankful that it led us into conversation with the two of you today.
SHAE:
That's so great. Um, Joel, I know that you're obviously a dad to four kids.
JOEL:
Yeah.
SHAE:
Um, and then my husband and I are, are kind of looking over the edge of entering this season- ... of parenthood, and we've got Lisa and Jim, um, who are in the throes of, like, the grandparent-
JOEL:
Grandparents, yeah
SHAE:
stage. Yes. And their, their grandparent, uh, or their grandkid numbers are multiplying.
JOEL:
Multiplying literally as we speak.
SHAE:
Uh, literally as we speak. And so we have a lot of representation on Therapy and Theology of different people in different stages and how they do life with kids, but also our listeners are kind of the same way. Um, so I think today's conversation is so timely, and I have your new book here, and I'm gonna hold it up just for a second.
SHAE:
It's called Capable: How to Teach Your Kids the Strengths, Skills, and Strategies to Build Resilience. Yeah. And I spent some time digging into this in preparation for our conversation today.
JOEL:
I mean, so much time, y'all- ... that you got it from the coffee stains.
SHAE:
Oh, I do have coffee stains on the copy.
JOEL:
This is my favorite part. You know a book is well-loved and well-read- when there are the coffee stains and the bugs.
SHAE:
Oh, I know.
JOEL:
So thank you for building that.
SHAE:
It's so beautiful. It's like when I choose to wear a white T-shirt, I'm like, "This is not gonna end well. I'm gonna get coffee" Um, but yeah, already well-loved, so oh, from my desk.
SISSY:
Thank you.
SHAE:
So thank you so much for this message. But I, I was just thinking, I ... And maybe this is personal to me, but out of all of the adjectives that could be added before kids-
DAVID:
Mm
SHAE:
of the types
SISSY:
Mm
SHAE:
of kids I wanna raise, or the types of kids I wanna be around, um, you could add, like, kind kids. You could have generous kids. You might wanna add independent or, like, self-sufficient. There's so many adjectives that you could want to add in front of kids. So why is capable such an important word, and why was this message so timely for right now in today's culture?
SISSY:
Mm. I love that question, and you're exactly right. There are a lot of words we could have chosen to go at the beginning of that. And, and it's fun that your listeners span a lot of different generations, because it's been so interesting as we have talked about this, grandparents have been so on board. Educators have been so on board. I think a lot of folks on the periphery that feel the same tension of the culture that we're living in and what's going on with kids.
SISSY:
And, and from our lens as therapists, I mean, we know there is now a youth mental health crisis in our country that we're seeing one in five kids are dealing with anxiety, one in three adolescents. One in five kids just last year between the ages of 12 and 17 had at least one major depressive episode.
SISSY:
And so- In all these years, I mean, we have seen this significant decline recently in mental health of kids. And following that, what we have observed, observed is a decline in capability. So kids who feel anxious, don't feel ready, don't feel capable, to go back to that word, of doing things like walking into a school building, of doing things like reaching out to a new friend, texting an existing friend, trying out for a sport they might not do perfectly the very first time they try it.
JOEL:
Right.
SISSY:
Getting their driver's license. We're having that conversation more than we've ever had. And, and so we are concerned about the lack of, um, belief in their ability to handle the challenges that life brings and will continue to bring throughout their lives, and feeling like we've gotta help kids feel ready. We've gotta help them believe that they're capable to handle all that life's gonna bring them.
SHAE:
So good. Wow. Also, um, you called out a few things, um, like texting a friend or getting your driver's license. Yes. And one of my favorite things in the back of this book, I have to call it out, 'cause you guys, I'm a book person, you guys made such good use of your bonus material.
SHAE:
Um, but there's an appendix in the back, and like we're talking about, there's a lot of different listeners represented here of different stages of raising kids, being around kids, anywhere from raising your own littles to being around littles who are your grandkids, and y'all have these capability building exercises in the back, CBEs for short.
SHAE:
Um, and you have some for kids of any age, you have some for littles, and then all the way up to older kids. And I thought that was so brilliant just to include some ideas. Um, so thank you for including those. Joel, do you have anything to add?
JOEL:
I mean, I've, uh, I think I've got so much, so many... Not, nothing to add, but lots of questions, um, to ask. And so I'm gonna, uh, I've got a couple different questions and thoughts. Um, one is, uh, David and Sissy, I'm at the age where, you know, you get those, uh, memes on Instagram and TikTok, it's like, "You know you're this age when..."
SISSY:
Yes.
JOEL:
And it's like, OL dial-up, you know, sound. And few of us can remem- or instant messages and things like that. And so I have a question when you talk about capable, 'cause even something like a driver's license.
SHAE:
Mm-hmm.
JOEL:
Um, and it's like I feel so old right now. I feel like when I was this age, walking- Right ... nine miles in the snow barefoot- ... to quote my middle school about to say, but yeah, when I was younger in junior high and high school, a driver's license was the thing.
JOEL:
Like, I-
SISSY:
Yes
JOEL:
I'm like, "I wanna be the first to take the class. I'm gonna be the f- I wanna pass the test." And to your point, there's even this, like, delay of getting a driver's license, or an anxiety around a driver's license. Um, I'm just curious from your guys' vantage point, I'm a history nerd, I'm a theology nerd, uh, so I care kind of about the cultural m-moment.
JOEL:
How do you guys discern the cultural moment of saying, like, how do we get to this place where- our kids are in a moment where something for us, my age, I'm 40 years old, that was so compelling, like I would want it immediately, is now actually a source of deep anxiety and concern- Mm ... and wondering like, are kids wondering, am I even capable of doing the story if I wanna do that?
DAVID:
Yeah. It's a great question.
SISSY:
Mm.
DAVID:
And you know, it's interesting, uh, I think it's of great importance that we camp out in this place, 'cause there's no question that's playing a significant role in this decline in capability. And, you know, if we were to extract kind of an everyday milestone for kids, let's say in adolescence, you know, think about the fall rolling around as a high schooler, and it's time for the homecoming dance.
DAVID:
Pretty much every school across the country's gonna do that. And, you know, I am embarrassed to say that I can remember a couple of years of driving to school in that season thinking, "Oh, yeah, I, I should probably think about who I'm gonna ask to the homecoming dance and when." I didn't give it a lot of thought.
DAVID:
And now we live in this moment where it's like there has to be an Instagram-worthy experience.
JOEL:
Yeah.
DAVID:
Like, you need to have gotten poster board the night before, came up with some really great messaging. Did you really think through your outfit? Who's gonna photograph this? Where should it happen with a great backdrop?Like-
JOEL:
Mm ...
DAVID:
all the ways we have layered in this pressure and expectation. You know, I jokingly say when I applied to college, you needed two things, and that was a pulse and a checkbook. And nowadays it's like kids need to have a stellar GPA and maybe have started a nonprofit by their 18th birthday.
SISSY:
Seriously.
DAVID:
And all this pressure and expectation that I think is a part of this cultural moment that is of such importance that I think we as adults really need to look at. Like, how have we ushered in some of these things in ways that would make kids feel paralyzed into stepping into some of these different moments?
DAVID:
And so I really appreciate, Joel, the way you asked the question. Now, there's no question for any of us that technology's played a significant role in this equation as well. So there are a lot of factors. I don't think it's just one, but I appreciate that you started there 'cause I think we have to consider that.
JOEL:
Yeah. And so, like, I think then the follow-up question is, um, you've got a word like capable, and then in the subtitle of the book, it's, uh... I'm reading it so I don't butcher it. You've got strength, skills, and strategies to build res- resilience, you know? Um, and so, so capability, and then you have resilience.
JOEL:
And I, and I'm a dad of four kids. I've got a 13, 12, and 11... 14, 13, and 11. Everybody's aging up, and it kind of messes up the, you know, the routine of my- ... three boys and a little girl who's six.
SISSY:
Mm.
JOEL:
Um, I want my kids to be capable, and I want them-
SISSY:
Yeah
JOEL:
to be resilient. Uh, and then there's also a tension 'cause you guys just described anxiety and pressure and the feeling that you gotta do it Instagram perfect. You gotta make sure that if you post a picture on TikTok or whatever, that it's gets thousands of views, and make sure the comments look good. Um, and so when you think about that and you think about resilience, um, how- Do I as a parent, like I can just make it like for myself, how do I as a parent manage the tension of wanting my kids to experience tension and grit and grind in order to help them build that resiliency versus recognizing, wait a minute, I might be asking too much of them?
JOEL:
Like, I might be actually pushing them into... And I've got a personal therapist since we're navigating some things, but like the difference between capital T traumas and little T traumas, and it's like both of those things matter.
JOEL:
And so how, how would you guys like help suggest us navigating that, that tension of wanting capable kids that are resilient, but also recognizing the environment that they're in and any adjustments that we need to make in terms of our paradigm or perspective on that?
SISSY:
Mm. It's, yes, that's such an important thing to consider because We certainly play into the equation, just as we're talking about. And in light of anxiety, just if we were gonna take that specifically, the two most common parenting strategies are escape and avoidance.
SISSY:
And so as we're thinking about the cultural moment, so many parents that we're sitting with didn't feel understood by their parents, didn't feel like their parents were helping them. And so now that translates to, "I'm going to not just help, but I'm gonna step in and pull them out of the anxiety-provoking situation." And what we know scripturally is suffering produces perseverance, perseverance character, and character hope. Right. And the only way to learn to do hard things is to do hard things-
SHAE:
Right
SISSY:
-basically. And I think if, if the four of us were having a conversation about our own lives, I think we would certainly say that the times that we grew the most, we discovered hope the most, we needed Jesus the most-
SHAE:
Absolutely
SISSY:
- were the times that we were struggling, and we didn't know what to do. We felt like we were at the end of our rope. And so, I mean, I, I think one thing that's super specific is I want any parents who are listening, and I want those of us who are surrounding parents to help them kind of with awareness around this idea too, is that I think social media is making it so much worse.
SHAE & DAVID & JOEL:
Mm. Mm.
SISSY:
Even this idea of rescuing, there is this sense, and Shay, I love that you're on the front end of this journey because
SHAE:
Right
SISSY:
there are so many influencers that are saying things like, "If you allow your child to take what we would consider a healthy, age-appropriate risk, if you don't intervene immediately when they start to cry, you're gonna disrupt attachment, you're gonna damage your relationship with them forever. You're gonna send them into counseling."
SHAE:
Right.
SISSY:
Rather than realizing they've gotta develop these muscles. And so we tell parents a lot to pick two to three voices that you really trust-
JOEL:
Mm
SISSY:
that help give yourself grace and help you trust your own intuition, and turn the rest off. Yeah. Because it's just too much.
SHAE:
It is too much, right.
SISSY:
Yes. And-
SHAE:
And I think as I'm hearing you talk, it makes me think You know, maybe parents feel ill capable to a certain extent, you know? And then you see a reel, your phone's been listening to you, you see a reel on Instagram or something on TikTok perfectly packaged to target you at your-
SISSY:
There you go
SHAE:
-vulnerable place.
SISSY:
Right.
SHAE:
Uh, so now not only do, do you not feel capable, but now you're afraid.
SISSY:
Yes.
SHAE:
And you're like, "Okay, well now I don't know what to do, and now I also am afraid that I'm just gonna mess all of this up," you know?
SISSY:
Yes.
SHAE:
Um, so I'm glad that you pointed that out. And, um, yeah, I think the social media thing is so, is so hard. I'm thinking about how much it's changed just from, like, when I got my first phone and just the journey of all of that. I feel-
JOEL
What was your first phone?
SHAE:
A Raz-
JOEL:
What kind?
SHAE:
A Motorola Razr.
JOEL:
Oh, yeah. There go.
SHAE:
Yeah. It was cool.
JOEL:
Mine was a Nokia brick.
SHAE:
Yeah. So it, it was a good one. But, um, it... Like, I feel like that stage, it, I feel like I was right before... Like, when I was in high school or when I was in college, Instagram was kind of- like what the original Facebook was, which was like a way to keep in touch with your friends, you know?
SISSY:
Right.
SHAE:
It wasn't a platform to, um, have a business or to impress people that you don't know. Like-
JOEL:
Yeah, a platform
SHAE:
it was not curated.
JOEL:
Mm-hmm.
SHAE:
It was not cool. It was just like a little keepsake capsule. And so, so much has changed, both for kids and for parents.
DAVID:
Yes.
JOEL:
Yeah, and I would say, like I, I got on Facebook had to have like a, a student, like email, right? Your, your- ... @ had to be like whatever was your university or college-
SHAE:
Right
JOEL:
that you had.
SISSY:
Right.
JOEL:
Where I'd originally started. But you know, David and Sissy, you guys kinda mentioned something that's really important, I think, for our audience and listeners, and for me personally. So as a, you know, as a biblical theologian, one of the things that I am always looking at is I've got different strategies for different exegetical methods through the scriptures, and so I always kinda try to remind people, "Hey, the Bible is not a book."
JOEL:
They look at me like I'm kinda crazy 'cause it's got a binder, it's got a table of contents and, and page numbers. I'm like, "You know, the Bible is a library of books." And in the books you've got different literary types and genre, and even original languages that you have to take into consideration.
JOEL:
And I remember like early on in parenting, so my wife and I have been married for almost 17 years, um, early on there were a couple of voices that were just so significant in kinda the tradition that I was a part of in the faith. Mm-hmm. And so Elise Fitzpatrick wrote an incredible book called, um, um, Give Them Grace, and then Paul David Tripp has an incred- uh, incredible, uh, book as well, but it was limited. You know? Like I, we kinda knew who the voices were, and we could trust those voices.
SISSY:
Yes.
JOEL:
But today, it's like I can read your book, I can read another book- Mm ... but then I've got 25 different Instagram or TikTok reels that are all have different kinds of strategies.
SISSY:
Yes.
JOEL:
Different kinds of methods. And so, um, you know, as a parent today, I have a question for you. Two-part. I always do this. I always have like two-part questions. Um, one, how, how do we determine the right voices that we should listen to? 'Cause we're hearing things that sound good, so as a parent who's either brand new getting into this or like I'm in it, like what is that? And then also secondarily, what are the common pitfalls or mistakes that you see parents making, um, not just in this area, but in general in parenting?
SISSY:
Mm.
DAVID:
Mm. It’s a great question. And, you know, my first thought was this. I, I think what I love within the question you're asking is the reminder for us as parents that, and we talk about this in the book, we always wanna be inviting kids into critical thinking. Like developing discernment, and, you know, it's within, I think, the wisdom of the words of, you know, we're called to live in this world but not be of it.
DAVID:
And so what does it look like for me to discern in so many different moments? You know, back to that example, it's like, okay, the world's gonna say you need to have an Instagram-worthy homecoming proposal. That's not a necessary requirement to survive in this world. So how do I break all those things down in ways that I can find my way to the really good stuff?
DAVID:
I was an advertising major in undergrad for a lot of years before I landed in psychology, and one of the things we would talk a lot, a lot about in advertising is asking the question, "What are they selling you?" And I think what a great question for all of us to be asking as we think about engaging-
SISSY:
Yes
DAVID:
- social media, as about engaging these different voices. And, you know, Sissy and I would argue, sadly, that a lot of people are selling fear. Like Shae, I think to your great wisdom, it's like if I feel afraid or vulnerable enough, then I'm gonna purchase or buy into anything, as opposed to developing critical thinking that allows me to really discern what I'm reading and engaging, and allows me to access the wisdom of the truth of God.
DAVID:
You know, we talk a lot with parents about the gift of being given the Holy Spirit, but unless I learn to quiet the voice of worry, I can't hear the voice of God. And so that's an important, vital, necessary practice for us so that we can find our way to the good and true stuff.
SHAE:
Yeah, that's so good. I love that so much.
SHAE:
So going off of that, for parents that feel afraid, I feel like something I hear a lot too is, um, like, "I just want them to be happy."
SISSY:
Right.
SHAE:
"I just want my kids to be happy," right? Uh, which, like, not a bad thing, but also something you talk about in this message of capable is kind of the difference between raising, raising happy kids versus raising healthy kids.
SISSY:
Mm-hmm.
SHAE:
So tell me why raising healthy kids is a better pursuit than even just raising happy kids.
SISSY:
Well, we know happiness is transient.
SHAE:
Right.
SISSY:
You know, if we were to think about any of our days, we're happy for maybe five minutes along the way. And I think when we are setting kids up to expect happiness, then we're not d- we're not even hanging to the truth of John 16:33 of, "In this world, we will have trouble."
SISSY:
And that's what we wanna teach kids, but that the verse doesn't end there, but then we get to take heart because Jesus has overcome the world. And, and we would really say that we think kids today are struggling spiritually because of that message of happiness.
SHAE:
Wow.
SISSY:
Because they've gotten away from this concept of living in a fallen world, that in this world we're gonna have trouble. And so then when it's not an Instagram-worthy moment, when they do feel sad, when they feel lonely, even in the midst of a group of friends, their default is, "What's wrong with me?" Mm-hmm. "This shouldn't be happening to me." Mm-hmm. Rather than, "Not only is this part of what this world looks like, but I know where I go when it feels like this. I know who I go to when it feels like this."
SISSY:
And so I think we wanna be really aware that we're having conversations about that with our kids. We wanna be aware of what we're modeling in terms of narrating our own lives and our own experiences, that we're s- I had a... I talk a lot about John 16:33 in some books that I've written on anxiety, and I had a mom one time say, "I love that so much that that became part of what we talked about at home."
SISSY:
We would say, kind of as code language, "I had a John 16:33 kinda day today."
SHAE:
Wow.
SISSY:
That of course I had trouble. And it can be little trouble, it can be big trouble, but we're gonna have it, and happiness does nothing to offset that, to bring us hope in the midst of it. But healthy is what we've been prioritizing all along with kids, when we're taking them to well visits at the doctor's, when we're teaching them to eat healthy.
SISSY:
There are a million choices you're making as parents to prioritize health because you know that's what your kids need in the long run.
SHAE:
Right.
SISSY:
And I think we would just say we wanna think about emotional health in the same way.
SHAE:
Right.
JOEL:
Yeah.
SHAE:
That's so great. And also, I would say, we talked about this in an earlier season on the podcast is we talked about a, a season called Health Check, and we kind of looked at-
SISSY:
Mm
SHAE:
-a different area of health each week, and we covered, um, spiritual, mental, emotional, and relational. And one of the things that came up over and over again is there is a difference between healthy and perfect.
DAVID & SISSY:
Yes.
SHAE:
And I think that's really important because you're... in this conversation because you're helping kids- You're teaching us to, to raise kids that are healthy, but that doesn't mean they're perfect, right?
SISSY:
Mm-hmm.
SHAE:
Um, and- Yes ... I'm so glad you call out the happiness thing because, I mean, I feel that tension as an adult, you know? The happiness meter is, like, a terrible uh, metric for how I'm doing and how, and how life is going. And I- and this, this, um... Everything you're saying is making me so tender and empathetic towards kids today, because I can see myself in almost every single thing that, that you're saying as I'm experiencing life in 2026 as an adult.
SHAE:
And so seeing- children and realizing, like, they're going through the exact same things, it's just different. And my adult, 30-year-old, uh, perspective that can have a John 16:33 type of day and go, "Well, of course. We live in a fallen world"
SISSY:
Yeah.
JOEL:
Right.
SHAE:
For them, you know, at age 13, 12, 11, 10, to have that, it's- it's soul-crushing sometimes. And I remember that feeling when, when I was their age. Um, Joel, I was thinking about this question a lot just as you being a theologian, and I think our culture does have a little bit of a happiness idol, you know?
JOEL:
Yeah.
SHAE:
Um, that I believe God wants to tear down, you know?
JOEL:
Yeah. I'm always struck by Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, you know?
SHAE:
Right.
JOEL
Like, the most prolific sermon ever. Um, I, I kinda argue that Paul is really, in all of his letters, plagiarizing Jesus' sermon on the mount. It's, it's honestly kinda what's happening ex- like, throughout the narrative structure. But, you know, he says, "Blessed" in the Beatitudes, it's like, "Blessed are" Um, and I think that Greek word makarios, it, it probably is a better translation of, of flourishing.
JOEL:
Like, flourishing are. And then you look at the, the things that are categorized there, and it's like, there's a lot of pain in that.
DAVID & SISSY:
Yeah.
JOEL:
There's a lot of suffering, there's a lot of all the ingredients that are actually somewhat required for resilience and in order to become capable. And so I think, yeah, we live in a world and a culture that suggests happiness is conditioned based off of, um, A, B, and C requirements, and yet the biblical worldview is happiness or flourishing is a condition that's only conditioned by or dependent on the presence of God-
JOEL:
um, and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit inside of our lives, which means we can be flourishing in the midst of pain, um, we can be resilient in the midst of sorrow and in grief. Um, which kind of leads me to my next question, uh, Sissy and David, and You know, there's so many, there's so many parents that are listening right now that are in different stages of their journey with their children.
JOEL:
Um, and so I mentioned my kids. Literally the other day, uh, my wife left for like 30 minutes to pick up one of the, one of the boys from school, and my young daughter, she's six years old, I was tasked, uh, with watching her. Now at six, I think she can take five minutes on her own or 10, and, and so I got distracted. I was reading something, and all of a sudden she runs into my office, and I could...
JOEL:
Before she got there, I smelled, like, what was going on. And she's like, she's a girl's girl, like Barbies and everything, and I could smell the nail polish- Oh ... before she even walked in. And she had a Barbie in her hand, and she ran into my office and she goes, "Dada, look, I took my Barbie to the salon."
JOEL:
And I was like, "Uh, babe, can you tell me where the salon is?" And she took me to like in front of our fireplace, and she had set up a salon and she had colored her Barbie's hair
SISSY:
Wow.
JOEL:
With nail polish.
SHAE:
Nail polish.
JOEL:
Yeah. I know. Shae's looking. It was-
SHAE:
I'm like, "I'm terrified."
JOEL:
It was everywhere, right?
SISSY:
Oh, man.
JOEL:
So you have one trajectory of like, man, your, your child does something and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I can't..." You know? And then you have, you know, the stakes get much higher-
SHAE:
Right.
JOEL:
as your children get older.
SHAE:
You're like, "That's a mess I might have to tend to," or like-
SISSY:
Yeah.
JOEL:
Yeah. 100%. And, um, and, and then, you know, I think of parents who are walking through, uh, the reality of their teenage children or maybe even adult children that are making some decisions that have devastating effects on-
SHAE:
Right …
JOEL:
themselves, on their families, on their siblings. Uh, and they might be reading this and thinking, like, "The capable thing is far gone." Like, "I, I, we're so deep in the grief. We're so deep in the sorrow." Um, would you just take a moment to encourage those parents? Like, um, yeah, how, how should they even be thinking about that moment and what the future could hold for them?
DAVID:
Mm. That's such an important question. And I think the first thing that Sissy and I would both wanna say is that it's never too late. And we don't just say that because it sounds good, but we've just seen overwhelming amounts of evidence of, of that being true, and restoration that has happened with parents and kids when... I think about a family I had a conversation with recently. The parents are in their late 70s and the kids are in their 40s, and there's healing and restoration that's happening right now in their relationship.
DAVID:
And I think it's reflective, too, within your question of we don't ever stop parenting. There's this, you know, belief that we're done once they're graduated from high school and out on their own in the world. And you know, my dad's in his 80s and I still love to ask him questions and I wanna hear his perspective on things.
DAVID:
So- We first say it's never too late, and we would also say it involves the ongoing practice. I think we believe this is a one-time thing that just gets locked in, but the ongoing practice of trusting the slow, steady work of God And that every one of us who's lived any amount of time knows there are seasons where we just cannot find clear, substantial evidence of that happening, and that's where the trust part of that equation comes in, and then other seasons where we can see greater evidence.
DAVID:
And what we talk about in the book that feels so important to remind myself is that these strengths, skills, and strategies are things we love the idea of teaching kids on the front side of development, but we can teach them at, at any point. If there's a parent of an adolescent picking up this book for the first time thinking, "We're not really great at managing emotions in our house," or, "We're not really great at dealing with disappointment and failure," then we can start right where we are.
DAVID:
And what does it look like to practice these, Joel, to your great question, in the smaller moments with nail polish and Barbie on the front side-
JOEL:
Mm-hmm
DAVID:
for the bigger moments-
JOEL:
Yeah
DAVID:
of mess-up and failure and disappointment. You know, y- as I mentioned that one, we're seeing greater and greater evidence of kids really struggling to deal with disappointment and failure, which-
JOEL:
Yeah
DAVID:
is just an ongoing part of living this side of heaven. And if I can't practice that in the smaller ways of not getting picked for a team when I'm in fifth grade, how am I gonna deal with that when I don't get the college of my choice, when I'm applying for an internship, when I get turned down in some way for a job I really wanted?
DAVID:
So we believe the practice is important all throughout development for, as you wisely said, the bigger moments in life.
JOEL:
Yeah.
SHAE:
Hmm. That's so good. As kids are facing things like disappointments and failure, I mean, whether they're 15 or they're 25 or even 35, what are some helpful encouragements to give them, or maybe even some questions to ask in those moments to kinda help guide them through, um, those moments where you feel like your life is over for whatever circumstance you're, you're up against?
SISSY:
Hmm. One very practical thing that we have in the book that I have very personal experience with recently... So I have a sister who's 16 years younger than I am, and it's just the two of us in our family, and she has two little boys who are seven and four, and I was with my seven-year-old nephew last week.
SISSY:
And I don't even remember what he was talking about. He is, he's very hard on himself when he makes mistakes and has been for a long time. And, and he was talking about something and said, "But you know..." He calls me Diddy, and he said, "But you know what, Diddy? It's okay." And I said, "Henry, I've never heard you say that before."
SISSY:
And he said, "Well, I heard you and Uncle David talk about it, that FAIL is a first attempt in learning."
JOEL:
Wow.
SHAE:
It's an acronym for a first attempt in learning. And I mean, it is the smallest thing to talk about with kids- Uh ... and I had no idea he had even heard us talk about it, but that it had taken root inside of him because that is such a significant shift in our thinking, because I think so often kids think, "Well, I'm terrible," or n- nothing's ever gonna be okay again when I make a mistake, rather than this is our first attempt in learning. And, and we love all of the growth mindset research is so important, and we talk a lot about the word yet, and using that as language with kids.
SISSY:
When they say, "I can't play basketball," "Yet." That we follow it up with one little word. “I don't know how to make a friend, yet”.
SHAE:
Mm.
SISSY:
You know, that we're still working. And we talk about the magic formula of empathy and questions with kids. Of, "That sounds really hard. What do you wanna do about it?" That we always start affirming their feelings, but then asking some question that helps them problem solve in the moment and develop resourcefulness.
SHAE:
That's so great.
JOEL:
You know, this is what I love about what both you and David just said, is, um, like I think about back to that, uh, illustration of my daughter with the Barbie.
SISSY:
Yes.
JOEL:
Like, the thing that my wife and I always think about is like, we want Em to have that same level of, like, passion to come to Dad. She doesn't even know that that was, like, even an issue, right? But she was just like, "I wanna come and show Dad."
SISSY:
Yes.
JOEL:
Like, we want our kids, as they get older, even in the midst of their failures and in their disappointments, to come to us. Right. To, like, still run to us. And as you talk about, like, both of those examples and these strategies, one of the things I love about your book and what you're almost like, so, you know, this is therapy and theology, so it's the therapy side, but the theological side of this is, I think of, like, Jesus, Matthew 11:28 and 29, "Come to me, all you who are weary-
SISSY:
Yes
JOEL:
and burdened, and I'll give you rest."
SISSY:
Yes.
JOEL:
And I think about the story of the prodigal son. Talk about disappointments and failures, and then you have a father who, like, as the son comes back, is chasing after him. And so I really love this because on a proc- on a theological standpoint, it's reinforcing this idea that as we participate in helping our children become capable children so they can become capable adults, it's also facilitating a culture and an environment that says, like, "Come to me."
SISSY:
Yes.
JOEL:
Like, like, "We can do this together."
SISSY:
Mm-hmm.
JOEL:
And that is such an encouragement for me personally.
SISSY:
Mm-hmm. So glad to hear.
SHAE:
And as they're talking about the word yet, I mean, my mind went so to the spiritual side of that, you know? I get it. We're, we're constantly living in, in the already-
JOEL:
Already the not yet
SHAE:
but the not yet-
DAVID:
Yes
SHAE:
which you've talked to us about.
JOEL:
Yeah.
SHAE:
Um, so there's such a larger spiritual arc here, too. Okay, I think for my last question, um, I wanna land here, because this is the last episode in a season that we've been in called Fight for Your Family. And we've covered topics, um, about marriage, 'cause we know that when you're fighting for your marriage, it helps you fight for your family.
SHAE:
We've done a couple episodes on that. We've talked about belonging, things that foster belonging and fracture belonging in a family unit. We've talked about boundaries, and sometimes how boundaries are taken to a point where they're really walls that are put up. We've got a really big, uh, epidemic, I would say, of estrangement in-
DAVID & SISSY:
Yes
SHAE:
Um, our culture, of, of parents and children not speaking to each other, and oftentimes not even knowing why.
JOEL:
Yeah.
SHAE:
Not even knowing why they were, they were cut off. So going back to the real purpose of boundaries and how God intended for us to use them, and when to know they've gone to an unhealthy extent where they've damaged the relationship.
JOEL:
Mm.
SHAE:
Um, and then we've also, we also did a whole episode on praying for your family, the importance of praying for your family, and really does it, does it make a difference?
SHAE:
And so now we're landing here- with you guys. And so as we're thinking about fighting for your family, um, I'm just thinking about the parents who want so much for their families and want so much for their marriage and want so much for their children, and today they're listening, and they're, they're just feeling a little empty. Their tank feels a little low. Maybe they are discouraged or they're afraid, like we've talked about, or they f- they themselves just don't feel capable.
SHAE:
Um, or maybe they feel like they've already messed up. You know, as you talk about shame being an element with, with kids, I think shame is a huge element in adults. Um, which, uh, Jim Cress has taught us, shame is self-hatred at my expense.
JOEL:
At my own expense. Yep.
DAVID:
Mm.
SHAE:
It's really hard to see that in... It's, it's easier to spot that happening with, with your nephew, as you talked about, Sissy, but it's harder sometimes to identify when that voice is really loud in your head.
SHAE:
So out of all these places that parents could be in, what is one thing that you want them to hear before they turn this episode off and go on to their next thing, pick up a kid, um, in carpool line, or at a sporting event, or you know, jumping into the next thing. What is something-
JOEL:
Clean up nail polish on the carpet
SHAE:
clean up nail polish. Did that go okay, by the way?
JOEL:
Yeah. Okay, we're good. Um, exactly. Character on, on the home, you know?
JOEL:
Yes.
SHAE:
Proof that you lived there.
JOEL:
Yes.
SHAE:
Um, but what's just one thing that you would both leave them with encouragement-wise as they are entering this summer season, maybe they're feeling a little empty, but they, they want so much for themselves and their families?
SISSY:
Mm.
DAVID:
Gosh, what a great question. Can I first say this? I loved hearing you run through the kinds of conversations you all have been having.
SISSY:
Me too.
DAVID:
We are so aligned in our passion in so many ways, and I'm so thankful you're tackling those really important topics.
SHAE:
Thank you.
DAVID:
And I'm really grateful you all are devoting time.
SHAE:
I feel like you guys could have been guests on any of those ep-
DAVID:
Oh.
JOEL:
We might need to run it back, honestly.
SHAE:
Yeah. Maybe we'll, maybe we'll do the Sissy and David edition-
JOEL:
Yeah.
SHAE:
of Fight for Your Family.
DAVID:
Well, it's, it's important conversations.
SISSY:
Yes, it is.
DAVID:
And you know, I think the thing that I would wanna say, I was thinking as we were talking about Stepping back into different moments of scripture, and, you know, I was thinking about the passage when Jesus is teaching and he calls a child to them and instructs people around the wisdom of children, is what I would say.
JOEL:
Yeah.
DAVID:
That passage is all about, and I love the language within that passage of, "Unless you change." Like, I love that language, and, you know, Sissy and I talk a lot about one of the many gifts of being with kids on a regular basis is I think they're just natural students. Like, kids go into every school year knowing, "I've got something new to learn."
DAVID:
And we tend to lose that as grownups.
JOEL:
Yeah.
DAVID:
I think that's something we could borrow, and so I think the language of, "Unless you change," or, "Unless you grow," kids seem to intuitively, instinctively know, and I think I would wanna remind all grownups, you know, back to even what I said a minute ago, we are all still practicing trusting the slow and steady work of God. That's not a one-time event.
DAVID:
So, you know, what are the places... I think I would turn it into a question. What are the places where you could stand to grow the most? That, you know, maybe it's in the place of curiosity. Maybe it's in the place of humility. Maybe it's, you know, in the place of how am I dealing with disappointment and failure? Am I beating myself up in front of my kids in ways that's not helping their understanding of extending grace to themselves and extending grace to others?
DAVID:
So-
SHAE:
Good ...
DAVID:
I think let's, let's anchor ourselves back to that, "Unless you change," and where are places where I need to change and grow? Yeah, so good. What would you say in response to that?
SISSY:
I love that so much. Well, I thought immediately about Dr. Dan Allender. Y'all may be familiar with him, who David and I went... We have to do continuing education, and we went and just spent a day with Dan, and one of the things he said that I will never forget is he said, "Your children are one of the only relationships you will ever have that you didn't get to pick."
SHAE:
Yeah.
SISSY:
Even if you adopted your kids, you didn't get to pick who they would one day become, and that immediately said to me that someone a whole lot smarter than any of us picked for you.
JOEL:
Wow.
SISSY:
And that each of your kids, even your hardest child, and David and I, in all these years of work, would say every parent has a hardest child in their family that's often the one that's most like them or the oldest of their same gender, but-
SHAE:
Right
SISSY:
but a- and even if y- it's that you're grandparenting in this season, or you're an aunt or an uncle or an educator, the kids i- in your care, God chose for you.
DAVID:
Yes.
SISSY:
And knew that they needed you and you needed them. And so to trust, back to that slow steady work of what He's doing in them and in you, and the process is so important, and it changes us
DAVID:
Yeah
SISSY:
- as we get to love them.
SHAE:
That's so good. That's so good. We have been in a season called Fight for Your Family, but honestly, you guys are, are front line on the trenches, you know, doing this every- Yeah ... single day. So I just thank you so much for this conversation. We've put a little spotlight on this, uh, topic of family, but this is a real everyday thing that you guys are navigating-
JOEL:
Yeah
SHAE:
um, in your work. And so thank you so much for being here. Um, you guys, how can our listeners stay in touch with you if they want to learn more about your resources or just stay updated with what you work on in the future?
SISSY:
Well, raisingboysandgirls.com is where everything is found, and then we really are active on Instagram trying to help in all the places we can. So we're always putting out videos, and questions, and different conversation ideas at Raising Boys and Girls and at Sissy Goff, in both places.
SHAE:
Okay, you got it. We'll link to all of that in the show notes, and we'll also add, uh, a link to purchase this book, Capable. Guys, make sure you get your copy. Uh, maybe you can coffee stain yours as well.
SHAE:
And together we will just keep learning, keep working through what we're walking through. Thank you so much, David and Sissy, for your time today.
SISSY:
Thank you for having us.
DAVID:
Thank you both.
SHAE:
And now it's time for listener mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's listener mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about.
SHAE:
Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus' name. We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the gospel.
SHAE:
And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 Ministries study guide titled Keep Holding On as our thank you for investing in the life of a child. Go to compassion.com/lysa to choose a child to sponsor today. Okay, friends, let's hear today's question.
SHAE:
This listener says, "My 27-year-old son lost his marriage because of his addiction to porn. Before they broke up, they did go to church counseling. How can I support him through this journey toward freedom? He loves the Lord, and he wants to be free." I'm gonna pass it off to Jim Cress to answer this question.
JIM CRESS:
Ah, yes, another great question here with a 27-year-old son who you gave birth to, or even if he was adopted, you've raised this young man, and now because of an addiction to porn, he lost his marriage. However, they went to some church counseling, which can be good, but your key question is, how can I support my son through his journey for freedom, a journey of getting set free, and all the work that it takes to do that from an addiction to pornography?
JIM:
You said he loves the Lord and wants to be free. Well, it takes time. We believe in our field, because this is kind of one of my big specialties of helping men struggling with or addicted to porn, it can take several years to really get that freedom established. And some of these guys have been snacking on or looking at porn since about age 12.
JIM:
And if we gave him cocaine or heroin at a-age 12 and then tried to get him off of it cold turkey at 23, it could be very, very difficult. So time is important. For him to do his own story work, if you wanna encourage him, that's where he can do that through therapy, not just reading books, but looking at the story and where the etiology, we'll say, or origin of pornography struggles began.
JIM:
But Mom, what can you do? I want you to practice what Hannah did with Samuel, what Abraham did with Isaac, to literally turn them over to the Lord. Turn him over to the Lord and say, "God, he's in your hands," and continue to pray for him. Also, I want you to look at, you know, the old line we, we've summed it up this way is, control what you can for sure, but let the rest alone.
JIM:
Don't ever work harder, Mom, as much as you'd want to, as a dad, me too, but don't work harder on your son than he is working on his own self. And then I would say, as much as you'd want to, don't buy him books. Don't find him a counselor. He needs agency to do his own work. You can pray for him, encourage him, and trust him, and trust his own process.