The Startup CPG Podcast

In this episode of the Startup CPG Podcast, host Daniel Scharff sits down with Megan Castellon of Syren Spreads, Andrew Kuzera of Ono, and food scientist Andrew Firestone of Firestone Consulting Group to give an inside look at Startup CPG’s first-ever Founders & Formulators event, where brands could get unlimited product feedback and find their ideal formulator match.

Megan is Co-Founder and CEO of Syren Spreads, makers of Skinglow, a chocolate hazelnut spread built around Tremella and a blend of botanicals. Andrew Kuzera is the founder of Ono, a better-for-you protein soda with 12 grams of protein per can. Andrew Firestone is a food scientist with a background at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, TreeHouse Foods, and Comet, where he worked on upcycled fiber technology. He launched Firestone Consulting Group to give smaller founders flexible access to food science expertise.


The group walks through how the event worked, from 70 brand pitches at the mic to formulators raising paddles auction-style, and what each guest got out of it: honest taste and texture feedback, new packaging and shelf life insights, a new food science vocabulary, supplier and co-manufacturer introductions, and in one case a brand-new formulator partnership. They also share practical tips on filtering feedback, choosing the right formulator, and preparing for a future event.


Listen in as they discuss:
  • Why Daniel created Founders & Formulators after watching brands spend years on products that weren’t ready for retail
  • How the event worked, from 70 brand pitches at the mic to formulators raising paddles for the briefs they could help with
  • Why food scientists give the honest taste and texture feedback that friends, family, and strangers won’t
  • How feedback on oxidation and light exposure has Syren Spreads considering a lighter botanical load and foil sachet packaging
  • How Andrew Kuzera went from self-formulating with AI tools to finding the language for what was off in his protein soda
  • Why supplier certificates of analysis for the “same” ingredient can differ, and how sourcing affects cost of goods
  • How formulators broker co-manufacturer and supplier relationships, not just recipes
  • What independent formulators get out of the event, from leads to meeting clients face to face
  • How to evaluate feedback from multiple formulators: check their past projects, trust the vibe, and go with your gut
  • How to prepare: review the formulator list, reach out on LinkedIn ahead of time, bring samples and a certificate of analysis, and exchange phone numbers

Thank you to our Founders & Formulators sponsors:pure caf
  • Applied Food Sciences (AFS) (makers of PurCaf®, a green coffee caffeine)
  • FlavorSum  (flavor solutions)
  • Marine Biologics (makers of SeaTex, a clean label seaweed ingredient)


Browse the free Product Developer Database:
Startup CPG’s database of hundreds of formulators and product development agencies is free on startupcpg.com under the Resources page. Product developers can use the submit button to be listed.


Interested in sponsoring a future Founders & Formulators event?
Email partnerships@startupcpg.com 

Want to connect with buyers, investors, and industry experts in real time? 
Join our free Slack community with over 40,000 members. Get access to exclusive events and trade shows where you can meet buyers and investors in person, plus free resources and more. 
Just text CPG to 833-605-7002 and we’ll get in touch.

Episode Links:

Don’t forget to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify if you enjoyed this episode. For potential sponsorship opportunities or to join the Startup CPG community, visit www.startupcpg.com.


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Creators and Guests

Host
Daniel Scharff
Founder/CEO, Startup CPG

What is The Startup CPG Podcast?

The top CPG podcast in the world, highlighting stories from founders, buyer spotlights, highly practical industry insights - all to give you a better chance at success.

Megan Castellon
One of my big questions coming into this event was that I really needed some validation around taste and texture of our product because a chocolate hazelnut spread is very technical when it comes to the oil matrix in there, the water activity. So I really needed an opinion or some insight around does it taste okay? Is the texture okay? Because it's really important.

00:32
Andrew Kuzera
And I got it to a point where it was doing well in farmer's markets and a few local stores. But I knew myself, I was like, there's something I don't love about this and it needs that last step. And so through talking with different formulators and working with Andrew, I think it's getting to that point where I'm really happy in that last little bit got tweaked out and I'm feeling a lot more confident in the product.

00:54
Daniel Scharff
Startup CPG’rs We just had an event that could have changed the trajectory of your business. You might have seen it advertised but written it off. You might have even been scared to attend. I could be. People are sometimes very afraid of feedback. It was our first ever Founders and Formulators event. Brands could get unlimited feedback on their products and hopefully find their perfect formulator match. In this episode, I've got two brands who were there and one formulator. I think you're going to be blown away by what they all got out of the event, the kind of conversations they had, what they heard about products, and I think you'll probably be inspired to attend a future one. All right, we're going to get into it here. I am so interested to hear what you think about this episode and the event.

01:37
Daniel Scharff
All right, here we go. Welcome, everybody. We have the dream team here ready to tell you all about our first ever founders and formulators event. And you're going to want to hear this. All right, so I wanted to get all three of you especially together here because you each experienced the event from a really different perspective. And I want everybody listening to this to understand what it was like to be there and in that room. Because I think this is a not very well understood event that could actually be one of the most impactful that somebody could attend. So why don't we just do a quick round of introductions? Megan, could I start with you?

02:17
Megan Castellon
Of course. Thank you, Daniel. Thank you for having me. My name is Megan Castellon. I am the founder of Syren Spreads. I spent 16 years in Mexico City surrounded by holistic healing and eating. And that shaped how I think about food to this day. And then at 50, I had this unexpected late life reinvention. I was discovered on Instagram for my cakes and hired as a head pastry chef, where I met my co founder. And that's really where our brand started with one question is how can we take something indulgent and build real wellness into it? So it's something you crave without guilt, but it's actually doing something good for your body. And that became Skinglow, our chocolate hazelnut spread. It's real chocolate hazelnut built around Tremella and a blend of botanicals, which we offer 2,400 milligrams per serving.

03:08
Megan Castellon
That supports hydration, elasticity, and firmness. So that is what we are working on. And it's a very complicated process to build a spread. Technology.

03:19
Daniel Scharff
Awesome. And people are loving it. So you guys are on the right track. I love it. Okay. And because we have two people named Andrew today, I am going to use their last names to keep it clear with everybody. So first, I am coming to Andrew Kuzera.

03:31
Andrew Kuzera
Hi, I'm Andrew Kuzera. Thank you for having me as well. So I started Ono it's a better for you protein soda, and it's got 12 grams of protein per can. And it's got the basis here, modern soda, so there's no preservatives and fillers in it. And it started when I was on the road traveling for work Monday to Friday. There's only a few options at gas stations and stuff you can find and throughout the standard chalky shakes and bars. And so I wanted to create something that fit my needs. And through friends and family's recommendations, it's slowly grown into farmer's markets and trying to scale it from there.

04:05
Daniel Scharff
And what's going to make it better than the other protein sodas that are out there?

04:09
Andrew Kuzera
I think taste and keeping the macros and ingredients in there better for you and having the best ingredients in the market.

04:17
Daniel Scharff
All right, I like to hear that because I don't think I've had a protein soda that I've loved so far. So I'm excited to try yours. All right, that sounds. Sounds great. Okay, Andrew Firestone, your turn. Let's hear it.

04:28
Andrew Firestone
Yes. Thank you so much for having me and great to be here with all of you. So my name is Andrew Firestone. My background is in food science. I went to University of Wisconsin, Madison. Got my undergrad there. I did some time working with Treehouse foods on Ready to drink beverage and then worked at Comet, where I worked on some upcycled fiber technology, working with crop leftovers and doing all the applications work out of there. Through my time there, I kind of found that there was a gap in the market for smaller founders looking to maybe not pay an arm and a leg for some work. And they can't really get off the ground without the food science expertise that they need.

05:02
Andrew Firestone
So I decided to start a Firestone consulting group where I work with plenty of really interesting, you know, a lot of the times, younger founders, new to the market, founders that are looking to get their product off the ground and trying to be a launch pad for them in a flexible way. So got Andrew here, and I think he's being very modest about his product. He's got a good tasting thing and he's. He got it there, and I'm trying to get it to the finish line. So one of those situations.

05:25
Daniel Scharff
And what are the kinds of products or technical components that you like to work on the most?

05:31
Andrew Firestone
Yeah, I mean, I like to say one taste is king. So making things taste good for sure is the most important thing, but I like to do that while using a lot of clean label and functional ingredients, working in the healthy indulgence space, if you will. So very similar to even what Megan's doing and trying to bring a functionality to something that has a sweetness or an indulgence to it inherently.

05:52
Daniel Scharff
All right, beautiful. Okay, so I am going to set the stage quickly just to talk about how the event worked, and then we're going to talk about each of your experiences at the event. But honestly, I'm so proud of how this whole thing came together. We got a lot of advice from people. We at startup cpg, we are very good at doing events with retailers, with investors. We've learned how to do this. But we had never done an event before, matching brands with formulators. And I was so excited to do it, mainly because I meet so many founders out there in the world who are on year five of their journey, and they come to me and ask, could you introduce me to a buyer or an investor? And they're in almost no stores.

06:39
Daniel Scharff
They've got no evidence of traction, and I don't know how to say to them, it's not investable. Like, retailers are going to look at this product. Like, I don't know how to tell you this, but it's not good. It's just like the taste is not good or whatever it is. And it's a very hard thing for me to do because I really support all brands out there. But it is, unfortunately, sometimes the truth. What I really could do best to help them is go back five years to the beginning and try to introduce them to a better formulator who could actually get them a better product that has legs.

07:08
Daniel Scharff
And then they wouldn't spend that whole five years in a somewhat futile journey where you're just running up against a wall the whole time because you didn't come to the dance with the right partner. Right. And so that is the idea behind this event. And I think it also is based off this realization that I had that there are so many great formulators out there. We at startup CPG built the first ever database of all the product developers out there and there are hundreds of them and they have such deep expertise, they love what they do. And you will not meet them at events for the most part. Is like they are not at the sales and marketing focused events, the trade shows that we all go to.

07:47
Megan Castellon
They.

07:47
Daniel Scharff
They're honestly not that well networked in general. And it's just such a word of mouth kind of thing to find a formulator. Most of the time I hear brands just being like, oh, I knew somebody who knew a formulator, so I use them. I want everybody to find the optimal formulator who works on your kind of product category and has experience in it and can work on all the technical parts of it that you need. Whether that's a certain kind of formulation or a shelf life extension, whatever it is, they know how to do it and maybe even they live near you, which is the ideal thing. And so that's all in our product developer database because it's so great to actually work with someone in person if you can, to shorten some of the cycles.

08:25
Daniel Scharff
But the actual founders and formulators event, as you know, the same with retailers, like everything is different when you actually get to do it in person. So that was the idea behind founders and formulators was to actually get everybody in the same room together. And so in terms of how the event was structured, we basically got all of the formulators who were going to be in town for ift, which is a food scientists convention that happens in Chicago. We invited tons of them and then tons of brands to this beautiful ballroom in Chicago's Palmer House Hilton, one of my favorite hotels out there. And the event was structured so we had about 25 food scientists and 70 brands. We didn't want anyone to miss a potential connection. And so every brand came in, every food scientist came in.

09:12
Daniel Scharff
The food scientists had big red beads around their necks. Everyone would know who they are and the brands come in. There's a little bit of networking that's happening. We have some great sponsors there as well. Who are we really thank for supporting the event? And then the first thing that we do is every brand gets up on the microphone, and it's very quick to actually go through all 70 of them because they just say, this is what I'm working on. This is what I need. So, like, I have a shortbread cookie company, and I need shelf life extension. That's it. And the food scientists are all around the room at assigned tables that have little placards.

09:47
Daniel Scharff
And so every time a brand says what they need, then it almost like at an auction house, all the food scientists are holding up their little paddles saying, who can actually help them with that? So someone gets on the microphone, says what they need, and then six different people are holding up their signs like, I am actually the perfect person to talk to about this. So we go through that, and the brands all write down the tables they need to go to, and that's a full round. We get through all 70 intros. It was amazing and super fun to hear all the challenges that people were working on. Then we go around and introduce all the food scientists so the brands can take note.

10:20
Daniel Scharff
And so Andrew Firestone, everybody else went around and introduced themselves and talked about things that they love working on the most. And brands are writing down their table numbers again. And then it's just go time. And so, all right, the rest of the time, brands just go talk to who you need to talk to. And they. They're going around to each one of the tables presenting their challenges. We actually made a little sheet working with our friend Adam Yee, who hosts the R D radio podcast and helped us design this event as well. A little sheet that would help them articulate their challenges. And then they went around and just had a bunch of really productive conversations. So that happened. And we just let everybody go, basically, and watched all the productivity going down.

10:59
Daniel Scharff
So that's the frame for the overall event is just making as many of those connections as possible. But I'm really excited now to hear about, like, what was it really like? Cause I just sat and watched this whole thing happen, but I don't have a product. I didn't get to do any of that stuff. So I would love to hear now then, what it was like for you guys. So, Megan, coming back to you, could you tell us a little bit more about, like. Yeah, what's that challenge that you came to the event working on?

11:23
Megan Castellon
Sure. No, definitely. Like you said, we started off by introducing ourselves and our product, and those formulators that were interested could raise their hand which made it really easy. You didn't waste any time. You went directly to those people that were interested. And one of my big questions coming into this event was that I really needed some validation around taste and texture of our product. Because a chocolate hazelnut spread is very technical when it comes to the oil matrix in there, the water activity. So I really needed an opinion or some insight around, does it taste okay? Is the texture okay? Because it's really important that when you eat our product, you still have this very smooth, indulgent chocolate taste, but you're getting a very large dosage of botanicals.

12:11
Megan Castellon
So having that validation and even identifying potential risks was something that was very useful for us.

12:18
Daniel Scharff
I love that answer. And I think it highlights another main objective of the event, which is people will lie to you about your product. If you know them and you ask them, do you like this? They will say, yes, I will do this to brands, too. I'm very honest about this. If I don't know you and I meet you at a trade show and you're a brand and you're, like, excited and say, hey, can you try my product? I will smile and say, it's good. Congratulations. Now, if you follow that up and say, but what do you actually think? Can you give me real feedback? Then I will. I personally don't feel comfortable. I don't feel like it's my place to just hit people with my feedback on something that's unsolicited.

12:53
Daniel Scharff
Your friends are probably going to do the same thing because they care about you. But you know who won't do that is a food scientist. They will give you that real opinion straight up, Especially in this kind of a setting where that is what they are here to do, is to give you the real deal and what a gift that is for a brand to hear it. Because, gosh, I wish I could have heard that more when I was running a brand and just fixed a lot of the stuff that was fixable early on, instead of just building it up, having a lot of inventory that I wished wasn't the way that it was. So I really like to hear that. Megan.

13:22
Megan Castellon
No, you're welcome.

13:23
Daniel Scharff
So can you tell me now, then, what were the conversations actually like? Who did you end up talking to? How did people help you with that challenge that you were working on?

13:32
Megan Castellon
So we ended up meeting with four different formulators that had directly expressed some interest in talking to us, and it was very useful because they helped. Obviously. Positive feedback, but also constructive in the sense that our product is packaged in a Jar and things to consider due to the makeup and the complexity of our spread. Oxidization. It's in a glass jar. What happens if light hits it? You've got hazelnut, which then releases oils. You've also got other oils. I guess the main thing was around, like, what were the potential risks going forward when you scale up or when it sits, how long is your shelf life? What can you expect things to look out for? So that was really helpful. I mean, I will say overall, they all thought it was a really interesting, good product.

14:18
Megan Castellon
But identifying potential risks was something like the glass I hadn't really thought about. And that's why we're even looking at possible changes to the packaging.

14:27
Daniel Scharff
I love to hear that. I am also one of these people who love your product. I think it's great.

14:32
Megan Castellon
Thank you.

14:32
Daniel Scharff
Tastes great, but that's really helpful to hear. So it sounds like you got a couple different perspectives that were just offering a lot of insight about a lot of the challenges that you could expect to have going forward and stuff that you hadn't necessarily heard before.

14:47
Megan Castellon
No, most definitely.

14:48
Daniel Scharff
And so did it actually lead you to some kind of action or just things that you're going to watch out for?

14:54
Megan Castellon
Well, no, it definitely walking away from that event and looking back at the formulation and the botanical load that's in the spread, we started to consider reducing certain ingredients to maybe reduce our overall risk. And we are looking into changing the packaging, going to more of a foil type sachet that you would rip and sip because then one of the things we would avoid is any type of sunlight or any type of oxidization that could occur. Because also, in a jar, every time you open the lid, you're bringing in more oxygen or more contaminants that could get into the jar and cause spoilage sooner than later. So, no, we're definitely looking at package change.

15:37
Daniel Scharff
Well, like, it doesn't make me happy that you have to change a bunch of things, but it makes me really happy that you learned that now instead of much later.

15:44
Megan Castellon
Yeah, definitely.

15:45
Daniel Scharff
In your instance, like you've been at some of our events and the feedback has been exceptional. And I assume you're going to get a lot of doors and into distribution and on shelves and it's going to get more and more expensive for you to make a change like that as you pick up the distribution. And it's so great. I am so happy that you heard that now from people and have the chance now to change all of that and be really set up to scale in an effective way. Because I also, I don't know your whole like life story background, but I have been in one of those situations where you're sitting on something that you're like, oh gosh, I need to change this. This is going to be horrible. Can I even do that? Should I wait? It's so much money and complicated.

16:22
Daniel Scharff
Like maybe you've been through all that before and crush it, no problem. But for me, I just want to help everybody minimize the chance of being in that situation.

16:29
Megan Castellon
No, definitely. But I mean, we launched nine months ago, so I actually think we're in a perfect position because we've been out in the market, we've done expos, we've gotten feedback and now meeting with the formulators, it's all coming together. Like, I think I'm at the right point to transition into something into a different packaging that could further expand the brand over time.

16:50
Daniel Scharff
That is so great. And you're on such an interesting trend as well. I'm really excited to see.

16:53
Megan Castellon
Thank you.

16:54
Daniel Scharff
What will happen in the market for this. Okay, so Andrew Kuzera, I am coming to you now. I would love to hear just kind of the same story from you if you can tell me a little bit about what was the challenge that brought you to the event? What were you trying to work on?

17:09
Andrew Kuzera
Yeah, absolutely. So at the point before the event I was fully self formulated and as you were kind of touching on earlier, referencing friends and family, you get a slightly bias perspective. And I didn't have the proficiency or knowledge yet to have the language to be like, I need to fix this thing in the recipe or formulation to make it that 10%, 20% better, to feel like I was ready to grow and scale the brand. And so I kind of went just to pick all the formulators brains at the event and learn what I didn't know because I couldn't be like, the product was slightly astringent. That's a new word I learned at the event. Like stuff like that I couldn't pick up on.

17:51
Andrew Kuzera
So just getting to learn from them and why I use certain ingredients because in the beginning it was just me referencing Basically Claude and ChatGPT for ideas on ingredients to use. And I got it to a point where it was doing well in farmer's markets at a few local stores. But I knew myself, I was like, there's something I don't love about this and it needs that last step. And so through talking with different formulators and working with Andrew, I think it's getting to that point where I'm really happy in that last little bit. Got tweaked out and I'm feeling a lot more confident in the product. And certain things I would not have known to look for I learned at the event, like different suppliers for the same ingredient because coas, even though they may match the ingredient can be different.

18:32
Andrew Kuzera
So like there's a lot of learnings. Like that was very eye opening for me. That was for sure.

18:36
Daniel Scharff
Wait, what does astringent mean?

18:38
Andrew Kuzera
I still don't know if I can verbalize the language for it, but it's like some sort of like I call it like a tongue taste.

18:43
Andrew Firestone
Would you.

18:44
Andrew Kuzera
Is that a good way to describe it as like a bitter tongue taste?

18:47
Andrew Firestone
Yeah, the food scientist can jump in here. It is like the dryness that you get, like when you drink a dry wine, for example, and your mouth feels like it's dry after that. Is astringency.

18:58
Daniel Scharff
Is that like the related to the chalkiness of a protein?

19:01
Andrew Firestone
I believe so, yeah. Yeah, it could be related to like a flavor that is in there, an acid. But yeah, Andrew, you might have more ideas on that too.

19:10
Daniel Scharff
I like that a lot because there is a whole language around this. And like I learned all these things when I was formulating with a partner or the beverage as well. And like I just didn't know how to verbalize what I was tasting. Like, I actually feel like I have a good palate during COVID probably drank too much wine, but I actually started practicing tasting it. But then you have to learn the language a bit. You have to learn the vocabulary so that you can express the things that you're tasting just so you can get it out. And once you learn that, it's so much easier to work with a form later because they understand the feedback that you're trying to give them. So that is a really valuable thing. And in this world of AI, that's awesome, Andrew Kuzera, that you're utilizing it.

19:49
Daniel Scharff
But as far As I know, ChatGPT does not know how to taste a beverage yet and tell you exactly what's in it. Maybe someday just based off the ingredients, it can probably tell you all of that, but I don't know. And so that's really cool. And it sounds like then for you there were a couple of really good outputs. One, you actually found something to work with on the product to improve it and get it to where you felt like it was in a much better place. And two, it sounds like that people gave you some ideas for some better match ingredient suppliers to make your product. Absolutely I love to hear that. So those are a great couple outputs and even things that we actually didn't even expect would happen, including people asking for co manufacturer recommendations.

20:28
Daniel Scharff
Formulators sit at the inception of the products and so they do actually their tentacles go out into all of these different things. They have their preferred suppliers and just top tier ingredient companies and partners for different aspects of the product and they also do have commands that they have a lot of experience with that they trust and can often recommend for you. So I really like to hear that. Andrew Kuzera anything else about like being at the event that you would just love for somebody to understand, like here's what I didn't expect about it or here's really what it's like to walk around with your products like talking to strangers who immediately critique it.

21:07
Andrew Kuzera
I think just how welcoming everyone was because I was very nervous. This is the second time I did an event with startup cpg. I showed up for a singular day at the summer fancy food show and everyone was super welcoming but is a little bit of a different beast going in with all the professionals that know exactly what they're talking about and trying to go in there with a prototype product and be like, I don't know what's going on but I need help. Can't exactly tell you what I need. So to get that context of like, oh, let me help you. Even recommendations.

21:36
Andrew Kuzera
So go to the market, talk to this many people, get this feedback, then it'll help you grow in this way and you can kind of tweak and adjust things based on these different people's feedback and their willingness to help even if you didn't work with them. Just to grow as founder and learn is super exciting and awesome thing. Very encouraging.

21:56
Daniel Scharff
I love it. Megan, I wonder for you if you just had any reflections on that same question that I just asked Andrew about. Like, yeah, if you're like a brand who hasn't been there and you're thinking about this like anything else, you would want them to know what it's like to walk around a room of product developers like that being vulnerable about your product or things they might not expect about the event.

22:13
Megan Castellon
Well, no, I, like I said, I think everyone was very approachable. It was also amazing that you bring samples with you. I mean they will taste it right there and give you real time feedback, which was great. Take some time to look at the list of who's participating and maybe get an idea of those formulators that are geared more towards your industry. For example, there was one formulator there who specifically had a chocolate background, but also worked in the mushroom botanical realm. So I definitely had him on my list. But no, overall, everyone was very friendly, very approachable, bring your information, have questions. Definitely was worth the time.

22:51
Daniel Scharff
That's great. And with 25 food scientists, formulators, you're gonna get a pretty broad skill set there. And there are gonna be five or six people who are raising their hand, at least for every brand that went up. So even there are, like, pet brands, and there are a few people there who could help on the pet side as well. And even if people know someone who can help also. So it just overall is such a great networking event to really figure out your product. So for everyone who's listening right now, I really want you to hear that thing about, like, what that actually did for Andrew and Megan and how far that advanced them on the product side.

23:25
Daniel Scharff
Because for me, I have this bias to just really always think about distribution and fundraising and like, oh, I can get this account, but this is the stuff that will help you perform and probably get some accounts and keep those accounts because people will like the product better and then maybe not have to do some big, like, recall because there's an issue with it, and get into better packaging and just set yourself up from the start. So I really view this as, like, hyper fuel for your brand to just get you set up with a better race car from the beginning, so you'll just be going faster overall. So I love these perspectives. And now, Andrew Firestone, I would love to bring you into the conversation because I am really interested to hear what was this like from the formulator's perspective.

24:09
Daniel Scharff
So you basically raised your paddle and offered your help for all the brands where you had a match on expertise, and then they just started coming around. So what was that like for you when the queue of brands started to talk to you?

24:22
Andrew Firestone
Fun and busy. It was nice to see so many different founders that were so open and very just, like, humble, and I don't think this tastes good and etc. And a lot of the times it was like, Andrew's was a product that I thought was really good, but it was a lot of founders that were, again, like, we've been talking about 75, 80, 90% of the way there, but there's just that, like, extra little bit of something that you could get into your product, which either, again, increases the shelf life or gets it tasting really good, that'll really improve it, you know? So for me, I learned just as much, I think, from just hearing from these founders. And new technical attributes that they're trying to include in their product or new issues that they're facing that I didn't even seen before.

25:04
Andrew Firestone
So I think for me, learning just as much as them, which was really cool.

25:07
Daniel Scharff
Did it feel like they were showing up to a therapy session just ready to unload on you? Like, all right, let me just tell you all the bad stuff.

25:14
Andrew Firestone
Yeah, exactly. A little bit of a therapy couch situation. Me being like, it's okay, I promise it's a good product.

25:19
Daniel Scharff
And I wasn't lying.

25:20
Andrew Firestone
All of the products were good. But I think it is really nice to be able to, I guess, like, soothe someone's worries about it. Like in Andrew's case, for example, being like, I promise we'll make this one switch and like, this is going to change it. And like, seeing that happen is really rewarding, I think, for both sides.

25:36
Daniel Scharff
That is amazing. I wonder, can you give any other specific examples of things that people came to you asking about or just things that they were interested to learn from you?

25:46
Andrew Firestone
Yeah, definitely, for sure. And I think a lot of it is like, what you had mentioned before, the formulators having all these tentacles. Right. I feel like I'm brokering a lot of these relationships. So it was a lot of folks that were, okay, I'm this far along, but I just don't have a manufacturer yet. Do you have anyone that you could recommend? Me. Me just giving them a list of folks and how to talk to them.

26:07
Daniel Scharff
Right.

26:07
Andrew Firestone
I think a lot of this space is generally not even being educated in what is this acronym and what does that mean? And how do I have a conversation with a co man? So being able to give that advice on just building those other relationships outside of just like, hey, yeah, put more salt in this. You know, I think that's a big part of it that a lot of food scientists, I think Ms. For sure. Which I love educating on that part.

26:30
Daniel Scharff
And I just love for people to get inside your mind as a food scientist as well. Because honestly, one of the things that I love, our core focus at startup CPG is all about helping the brands. But because I've gotten to know a lot of food scientists over the years, I worked at a company called Just Egg. It was a food tech company. Had a lot of R and D people in house who became my friends. And I really respected their skill sets and then just stayed in touch as they went out into the world and just started to understand what that independent formulator life looks like.

27:00
Daniel Scharff
And they're just people with these really deep Skill sets who, if they're working especially on their own, it's a hustle a lot of times, I think, kind of live project to project, and it's word of mouth and you don't have, like some big marketing budget to try to reach all the brands out there. And it makes me really happy to make these matches with them and brands because they're going to get great expertise. They're probably going to get it at a much more affordable price than if they went to one of these massive product development agencies. And it's just such a win for everybody. So that's one of the things I love to see happening. And even at Nootopia.

27:33
Daniel Scharff
Now, a little bit ago, I met one of the formulators in the database, and he said, I have eight projects because of your database, because brands found me on there. That means like, eight really good matches. So, Andrew Firestone, can you just tell me a little bit as a formulator, what is all the stuff that makes you want to show up to an event like this and what do you get out of it?

27:50
Andrew Firestone
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head.

27:52
Andrew Kuzera
Right.

27:52
Andrew Firestone
Lead is huge. I mean, in this business, as much as I love helping out, definitely it also pays the bills. So it's nice to have that ability to see all these people in one room. And I felt like the bell of the ball, which was really cool, but also be able to connect with people on that human level a lot of the times. Right. Like, I'm in Chicago and I don't get to hang out with the person that I'm formulating with. Right. But in this case, Andrew and I got to see each other meet face to face and really build that initial relationship. They're like, okay, yeah, we can work on this together. I think that's a major part of it, that human element. And I just enjoy the event.

28:26
Daniel Scharff
That's so fun. And you obviously, I didn't even know that, but immediately got to work with somebody from the event. So it sounds like not just leads, but actually, like, this is important stuff because, like, we need to support Andrew Firestone as an independent formulator because if we want him out there with his skill set, like, he needs to have stuff to work on. So I really see this as something that we can do to just really make sure that there are people who can have a income doing this kind of stuff and having the work from the brand. So it just makes me super happy overall. And I really like that idea about actually getting to meet with people first.

28:58
Daniel Scharff
To do it because it almost feels more like that fun environment where you all work together at the same company and are like in it together. So I think that is a really awesome thing. So, Andrew, one question for you. Because if you're a brand and you're running around at that event, there are a lot of people who have deep expertise. You might get a couple different opinions from them on your product. If you're trying to figure out, okay, of those six people, who should I actually work with as a formulator? What would you tell them? Like, yeah, here's how to evaluate me, evaluate my colleagues, and figure out who's the actual best person to work on this with you.

29:29
Andrew Firestone
Totally great question. For me, I personally like to be straight up with the things that I cannot achieve in my laboratory.

29:36
Daniel Scharff
Right.

29:36
Andrew Firestone
I am not going to be your expert confectionery scientist. And Megan can find that expert confectionary scientist, which is excellent. So I think a lot of the time you'll find food scientists that are very honest about what they do and what they're good at. I think always looking into previous projects, in my case, I think it's really important for me to showcase those previous projects and to really explain what I'm good at. I think a lot of the time, yeah, it's really about finding that expert for your project, not just finding something that's in your budget. You really want to make sure that they know what they're talking about in that specific realm.

30:08
Daniel Scharff
I love it. I think that is great advice. And Andrew Kuzera and Megan, I'm going to come back to you with the same question there in a second as we're wrapping up here. So, Andrew Kuzera, I'll come to you first. Like, what would you say now about, like, how to evaluate all the different feedback that you're getting from people at that event as an early stage brand? If you're going in and hearing all those things, like, how can you actually, like, even filter it all? Because you're probably getting a lot of feedback at the same time. Like, how do you take that in but also stay true to what you're trying to do?

30:38
Andrew Kuzera
I think a really big thing that Andrew Firestone actually touched on a little bit was that human element of it, getting to have the conversation with them be like, do I think I can work well? And they are understanding my idea and the mission of my brand and what I'm trying to achieve. And if they have that understanding through verbal conversation, that's very different than having emails back and forth with someone. So it was kind of just a feeling you get when you're there. And I don't think that is a feeling you can get via email or really any other events out there. Was awesome. Getting to talk face to face and see people and how they physically understand the brand on top of their expertise and if it fits the product you're.

31:19
Daniel Scharff
Developing, I love it. And Adam Yee just talks about this too. He's like, vibes are important. Like your vibe with the person is actually very important. And for him as a formulator, that's really important too because it will have a lot to do with the success of the project. And Andrew Kuzera last one for you, which is if you're talking to a brand who's going to go for the first time, is there anything that they could do to be super prepared to make the most of this kind of an event? Whether it's about just like really refining the questions that they have there or just more research on who exactly to talk to or how to have those conversations?

31:50
Andrew Kuzera
Yeah, definitely review the list in the beginning, see who fits the products or the formulators that fit your product and you think will make sense. But also go in open minded and willing to learn from the professionals. Even if it's someone potentially that works in confections, they may still have some advice or have some experience that can point you in the right direction. Even if they maybe can't help you, they can still give advice in the product development realm. And knowing certain suppliers and stuff like a big thing I didn't even think to realize were talking about certain ingredients and suppliers is the cost of goods element of it and seeing decreasing and is an overall better ingredient and decreasing in my pricing of ingredients.

32:31
Andrew Kuzera
Working with someone I never thought I was like, oh, if I work with some of these bigger companies it's gonna cost more and yeah, it'll be a better ingredient but like there is a balance to it and through just their experience and being open to talk with people I think is huge.

32:45
Daniel Scharff
I love it. I really love to hear that. Okay, Megan, same question coming to you. So first one is. Yeah, when you're talking to all these people and getting all this feedback, what are your tips for like really how to interpret all that feedback because you don't want to be like just a pinball in a pinball machine. Like okay, I'll do that a little. Oh gosh, where am I?

33:03
Megan Castellon
I think the stage were at and the amount of knowledge I had behind the product and the formulation. I feel like with each of the four formulators I talked with, the information was consistent. But I will say it is a vibe. I mean there was one person in particular because of his background in chocolate and mushrooms. I mean we really connected and were like talking the same language and mushrooms and fat matrix and with the three fats and our, I mean it was a good conversation. So there's definitely a feeling you get but everyone's going to give you advice but I think you have to go with your gut and what feels right and I mean you know deep down which person you're connecting with and what makes sense for you.

33:41
Daniel Scharff
It's very beautiful. It really is like a speed dating event where you have all these matches that come out of it except even the dates that aren't your long time match you're still learning a ton from. That's actual stuff you're going to put into practice. So I wish I could get that from every date that I went on that didn't work out. And so yeah Megan, same other question to you then which is for anyone else going who wants to be super prepared to make the most of this kind of an event, what should they do? What should they have to prepared? What should they do at the actual event? What do you suggest?

34:10
Megan Castellon
Very similar to Andrew. I mean definitely do your homework and take a look at the list to see who's going to be there and determine who is the best fit for your product. Definitely know your formulation, understand your manufacturing processes. If you know that packaging. Also if you've had it third party tested and you had a certificate of analysis developed, bring that with you. Because I had a question come up about water activity and of course I didn't remember the amount and had I had my COA with me I would have had that in front of me. So I mean just bring the information, bring samples, really understand how your product is made and produced so that when you have these conversations you can really get the most out of it.

34:51
Daniel Scharff
That is awesome. And I really want to highlight everything that we do at Startup CPG is only because of the kindness of our sponsors who are great partners for brands and we really appreciate them. But this stuff is expensive for us to do. We really appreciate them. It was so helpful actually to have them at the event. So we had three major partners there. We had applied Food Science, fat sciences that they make this ingredient especially that I know really well called pure Caf which is a green coffee caffeine and I actually used it when I was a brand and it's super high end and it was great to have them and their expertise there. There are a lot of people working on products that have energy and cognitive stuff and like they cover just tons of different stuff.

35:31
Daniel Scharff
So it was great to actually have them there because they were raising their paddles just the same way as the formulators and had a ton to contribute to the event. It was just great to have them involved. We also had Flavorsome, so they provide flavor solutions for all these companies in a really major way. So they have a huge manufacturing space as well. So it was awesome to have just some really heavy experience then from there as well as just a really massive flavor company as well. And then we had marine biologics. They make Cetex. It's a clean label seaweed ingredient and it just super functional in the ingredient deck as well. And all three of them were just there interacting with everybody and getting to spend tons of time with people and just being super helpful.

36:14
Daniel Scharff
So that was so awesome to have all of them there. I really appreciate it. If you are an ingredient supplier or flavor house or whatever and you feel like you would be a good fit for one of these events, let us know. You can email partnershipsartupcpg.com quick little plug there. Nobody mind me, but that is how we get to do all of this fun stuff. So if you would like to get involved in one of these incredible events that I think is honestly an amazing opportunity because a lot of these companies would love to get in front of these really high quality brands while they are figuring out their supplier deck as well as these formulators who are just some of the most influential and knowledgeable people out there working across so many brands.

36:52
Daniel Scharff
So we really appreciate them and I think it was just a wonderful experience for everybody. Okay, so Andrew Firestone, I'm going to wrap this up here with you, which would be, I wonder if you have any final advice for maybe anybody attending this kind of an event. Like okay, I saw the founders, they did a great job with me. But like anything else that you feel like they could have done to get even more out of the event, then you saw the brands coming in, like was it. Yeah. About really understanding their formulation even better or what could they have prepped you with to even make it more productive there in the moment?

37:27
Andrew Firestone
It's a great question. I think Megan hit on some of it, Right. The most information you can share with me. I'm not going to take any of your ideas. I don't need to start a CPG brand right now, but the most information you can share with me that you can bring to the event, that's ideal, right? I can go through it all and you get basically a quick consult. The other thing I was going to say is grab the formulator's phone numbers,.

37:48
Daniel Scharff
Text them some questions.

37:50
Andrew Firestone
When they come up, they'll respond to you hopefully and you'll be able to just like ask them quick questions. I think that's a super fair thing to do, especially if you maybe end up buying them a beer or something like that. So I think, yeah, just build those relationships because I know, me personally, like a quick question, it doesn't really hurt, right? I'm always open to answering.

38:09
Daniel Scharff
I love that. I was totally going to hit on that same point as well because we did all go down and get beers afterwards in the beautiful lobby of the Palmer House Hilton, which is just an epic Chicago landmark. But I would do that same thing. I would almost be treating the formulators in this instance. If you're going to this event, it's because this is really important for you. And I would almost treat them like you would a buyer ahead of a trade show where you're going. And because we do have the list on the eventbrite of the formulators who are attending and I'd be looking at their capabilities and hitting them up on LinkedIn ahead of time even because you're going to get time with them at the event. But it's because of the high volume of conversations that are happening.

38:48
Daniel Scharff
You're probably not going to get 30 minutes with them. You're going to get some time with them and then the next brand is going to come in and talk to them and you're going to have that connection and be able to follow up with them. Maybe it'll work out that you get a little bit more time. But we don't have unlimited time. This is not a three day trade show. This is a couple hour event. The way that we structured at this time. And so I would almost be like, if I'm Megan and I know who that person is ahead of time who has that chocolate and mushroom experience, I'm hitting them up ahead of time on LinkedIn and saying, I know we're both going to be at this event, I'm so excited to meet you.

39:15
Daniel Scharff
I also would like to set up some time. Maybe we can have a call ahead of time or maybe, yeah, we can have a drink afterwards or something because I think you can just get a lot more mileage out of it that way. And then maybe you come in and they've already told you some things they need to know about the product when you're there in person and have that chance to really get to actually meet or yeah, I don't know, if you're a brand, maybe you do get a little bit of help from them just because you have more time with them like that. Actually just being able to text someone a question can be a lifesaver.

39:41
Daniel Scharff
And yeah, often people who are really confident in their skillset and value usually don't mind answering things like that because they are not trying to get a retainer from you for one tiny piece of information that they have that you don't. They are actually totally fine to demonstrate their value to you and then that's how you create those good vibes and that it's a good match to work together long term. So to conclude here, I just would really like to thank each of the three of you for all of your perspectives here because I just again, I feel like this is not an event that people have seen before. This is the first of its kind that I know of. This was a dream that we had just based off the hard work that we did compiling that beautiful database of all the formulators.

40:21
Daniel Scharff
And if anybody wants access to that, it is free. It's on our website, startupcpg.com under the Resources page and you can go and really browse and find all of these great product developers out there. If you're a product developer and you want to be listed, there's a submit button and we would love to have you in there because we just want the brands to have the access. It has independent formulators like Andrew and it also does have those large agencies if you feel like you want one of those big ones that has tons of different people and many that have their own flavors that they manufacture all that stuff. So I really hope to see all of you at a future founders and Formulators event. We will be announcing some other ones in the future.

40:57
Daniel Scharff
So if you're not already in our Slack channel, make sure you're there so that you hear all of the good stuff. You can join and it's free at slack startupcpg.com and join 40,000 of your friends in our online community. So I hope to see you all in the Slack or at an upcoming event soon. And thank you again to the three of you. This has just been a great time. Thank you so much.

41:17
Megan Castellon
Thank you, Daniel.

41:18
Andrew Firestone
Thank you so much, Daniel. Appreciate you.

41:20
Daniel Scharff
All right, thanks everyone. Well, my friends, we've now arrived together at the end of another episode of the Startup CPG podcast, the top globally ranked podcast in cpg. As you may know, we're not just a podcast. We're a community of brands and experts and you should join. You can sign up @startupcpg.com you'll then get an invite to our online Slack community. You're going to hear about amazing events near you, all of our special opportunities to get you in front of buyers, investors, brands and more. It's a free community, so what are you waiting for? I will see you there or on our next episode. Bye Bye.