The Women in Science and Medicine podcast features discussions with female scientists within West Virginia University and other institutions. In this series, we’ll share the achievements and insights from some of the country’s top female scientists and learn from their experiences to understand how they came to be passionate about science and overcame any obstacles in their paths. This podcast is offered by West Virginia University’s Office of Research and Graduate Education.
Welcome to West Virginia University's Women in Science and Medicine podcast, brought to you by the Health Sciences Center's Office of Research and Graduate Education. We talk to women with careers in these fields, gaining their insight into what it's like operating in roles that are still mostly dominated by men.
I'm your host, Mallory Weaver, and today I'm excited to continue our discussions with WVU alumni Dr. Rachel Hostetler, scientist at the Allen Institute for Brain Science. Welcome, Dr. Hostetler, and thanks for joining us. Thanks so much for chatting with me today.
Thank you for having me on the podcast.
I'm excited to chat. Great. So first two questions are always the same for my guests. Can you first just briefly tell our listeners about your education, your career path that led to your role today?
Yeah, so for my undergraduate studies, I was at the University of Minnesota, where I double majored in neuroscience in German, uh, because I had a lot of different interests, but just outside of STEM, um, which was actually interesting because through my German major, I got to study abroad in Germany and work in a neuroscience lab.
Oh, wow. During my semester abroad. So I always tell people that if you have interests outside of STEM, that's, that's, that's Sometimes that can be an advantage, um, because it, it was for me, I ended up making more connections, um, and getting access to opportunities that I wouldn't have otherwise because of my, uh, interest in, in German.
And then after graduating from the University of Minnesota, then I pretty much went directly into graduate school, uh, for my PhD at West Virginia University in the Neuroscience Department. And I graduated last year in 2023 and went straight to the Allen Institute for Brain Science. Um, and at the Allen Institute my job is working as a scientist and my role is more similar to an application scientist where I help other researchers and scientists use our data sets and tools.
Um, and for those who aren't familiar with the Allen Institute, it's a non profit. research institute that was founded by Paul Allen about 20 years ago. And the main focus there is a lot of neuroscience research and really tackling big questions about the human brain and what types of cells we have in the brain, how do we characterize them in these really, really large scale projects involving millions and millions of brain cells.
So it's been, it's been an exciting journey. That that's so awesome. I like your mention of how I think some people do have sort of a stereotype of what a scientist is, you know, just sort of that laser focused on whatever their discipline is and sort of, um, you know, like the messy absent minded scientist, you know, that's always been a trope.
But yeah, we're people we have other interests. And so I think that's really great that you were able to marry those two and actually furthered your opportunity in science, which was kind of cool. So what led to your interest specifically in STEM? What fed that as you were growing up? Yeah, I don't think there were any particular moments or situations that, you know, inspired anything.
I just remember in elementary school and middle school, I feel like math and science were generally the subjects I was best at. I was interested in all subjects, which makes sense and panned out later, which is why I had two very different, uh, you know, majors in college. And I always, you know, my thoughts were always, if I ended up not going to graduate school for neuroscience, I was also very strongly considering going to a master's or PhD program, uh, for German as well.
So I've always just kind of had a lot of different interests. Um, but I think, I think I had a lot of good teachers, um, throughout my education when I was younger who noticed Oh, you seem to maybe be good at this subject. Have you considered this thing? Or you should try this. Um, so there was always I think having supportive people around who notice, um, which skills you have and what things you're, you're good at is definitely helpful, uh, because neither of my parents are, are in science.
Um, they both studied, um, more business related, uh, things when they were in college. So when I mentioned I was going to graduate school and doing research, uh, that was all very, very foreign to them. Sure. Um, and they were like, what exactly are you doing? Uh, I explained that. Well, I get, you know, it's, you get a stipend, it's kind of like a job, you have health insurance, you know, it's, uh, probably going to take five, six years, um, that'll be working in a lab, so just the, the concept of graduate school in science was, and that type of academic research was born to my parents, so I think it's, it's helpful to surround yourself with, with people, um, who can inspire you and Yeah, even though they didn't understand fully what I was doing, they were always very supportive.
My parents as well. Um, now that, now they have a, a better understanding of, after hearing me talk about, you know, neuroscience for a number of years. I imagine. They said they, they understood some of my dissertation defense, they told me. So that's, I think that was a win. That's awesome. Um, I think it's really important that you mentioned having people around you that sort of notice your strengths that might apply to like real world jobs because I think I'm similar.
I have a lot of interests, but I find it hard to like get really accomplished at one. And so it is helpful to have folks in your life who are a little bit more, they're able to look in, whereas I think it's harder for us to look at ourselves as easily as others can. So you mentioned you went directly from graduate training to a private scientific institute, or what would be considered by some as unconventional or non traditional career paths for scientists.
And I know that's not necessarily a popular, um, opinion, but one of some, um, so many think that you go right into a biomedical postdoc position. So what are the some of the factors that guided you to choose your current scientific career? And I asked that specifically because we have seen increased interest, um, over the years from our graduate students here in those quote unquote non traditional career paths.
Yeah, I remember when, well, I always knew the first day of graduate school that my end goal was not to be a PI and have my own research lab. I knew that at the very beginning just because of, I think my personality, you know, I think. I think it takes a certain type of person to like an entrepreneur basically to be a PI and run your own lab and that's just sounds extremely stressful to me.
So personally, um, I always thought, you know, it's amazing that people do that, but I always just recognize like, I don't think that's, you know, the right path for me. And I also recognize that, um, scientists, especially Ph. D. level scientists are needed at every level. other places in society. They're needed in government, they're needed in industry, they're needed in non profit institutions.
Um, scientists shouldn't, in my opinion, scientists shouldn't just be isolated to, you know, either the academic bubble or other bubbles, you know, where we need to be integrated everywhere. Um, in society because if we just keep all the knowledge to ourself, like who is that benefiting? Um, so I always had that, uh, specific thought in mind.
And when I was interviewing for graduate for positions after graduate school, I interviewed, I did interview for a few postdoc positions as well. Um, so I didn't completely shut out that route. I actually did have some conversations with some PIs about research topics. And I was also interviewing for positions, um, in science policy.
Cause that was also a big interest of mine. And then I also interviewed for, yes, this position at the Allen Institute, which is more, a bit more of like a science communication route, um, but kind of with other scientists. So I really, you know, most of my time, uh, the outreach and communication that I do at my current job is really with other graduate students or postdocs or PIs at other institutions.
And so, yeah, I, and also initially when I first started graduate school, I just assumed you always had to do a postdoc afterwards because that was the, um, the pathway I had seen in my own department, even if people ended up as, you know, medical writers or in science policy or other nontraditional careers, they almost always did a postdoc first and then during the pandemic, I think it's really when I saw a shift and people decided, um, You know, maybe I don't need that stepping stone.
If my dream job is something completely different, maybe I'll just apply directly for that. Um, and I also noticed it in different fields as well. So, I think in biomedical sciences, we still are very heavily going the postdoc route, but I had friends in engineering who, you know, You know, they're like, Oh, we don't really do postdocs quite as much.
You know, in my particular field of engineering, a lot of us just go straight into these other positions. And I thought, Oh, okay. So maybe that's not the, you don't have to do that route if you don't want to. Um, if you want to, that's great. But if you don't have to, maybe, you know, that's not the end all be all route.
And I have friends who also did, um, who are also doing postdocs at. At the NIH, so like at a government level postdoc, which again is slightly different than an academic postdoc, or maybe they're doing one at another institution like Janelia. Janelia is also a non profit, um, Allen Institute used to have postdocs, uh, a number of years ago, but now they actually switched to a different format where you can just be hired straight from your PhD like I was, and use ENTER as a scientist one.
And then if you did a postdoc, have a little more experience, perhaps you enter as a scientist too. So it's just a slightly different scale. And, yeah, I think for, for other graduate students who are considering this, um, I, I started to really realize that there were other options besides postdocs at, a lot of times at research conferences.
So I would go to the Society for Neuroscience conference and I would talk to people, particularly from companies, you know, where I had worked with their, you know, research. Um, instruments. So I did a lot of microscopy work. So I would go talk to people from Nikon or Zeiss and I would say, Hey, what roles do you have for, for PhD level scientists?
And they're like, Oh, we have a lot. Um, we usually hire people who know our instruments and then they can work either in sales or they can work as an application scientist. Yeah. And I thought, Oh, okay. You know, that's, that's interesting. You're helping you're, you're still in science. Um, you're not doing, you know, bench work research, but you're helping other people do their research.
Um, yeah. And that's sort of like my work at Allen's Institute, is working with scientists externally and helping them, you know, access some of our data sets or access some of our tools. Uh, we're a non profit, so, you know, there's no charge for using any of our stuff, but just helping people, you know, access things, doing tutorials, um, and workshops is great.
It's what I do now. So yeah, learning at research conferences and also just through, um, we had some seminars and different things at the university where we invited in external people like through the T32 program that also helped me realize, oh, there's a lot of other, you know, there's not just one type of science communication career.
There's like medical writing for, you know, at the very technical level, there's, you know, scientific writing for labs. For other larger companies. I mean you could work for a museum. There's all sorts of different routes You can take you can go into patent law. I've heard of that being a career for some people With PhD level science, so there's a lot of things out there And I think LinkedIn is a good way of viewing all these different Career pathways that I wasn't aware of when I initially started graduate school is one way just to see people You know in these different roles and where they end up It seems like if there is one of the largest benefits in going into a biomedical science career is that it, you know, your options are so beautifully vast in terms of a career path.
Yeah, I, I knew that science policy was a potential option when I started graduate school, but I didn't know the exact pathway. And then I learned about, you know, the, the triple A. S. um, science policy fellowship. I learned about, um, some other science policy fellowships. I ended up doing, you know, a few smaller Um, science policy related internships or volunteer activities during graduate school, which then allows you to connect with and meet with other people in the field.
So I think, um, yeah, the world ends up being much bigger than you realize for your positions. Great. So do you think there are any specific unique challenges or benefits that result in heading straight into the private sector? I know you had, um, in the last answer, you mentioned that entrepreneur sort of spirit that a P.
I would require. And I think that's really accurate in terms of, you know, always, um, trying to make sure you're funded, right? So that level of stress all the time. So obviously, um, that's a benefit to just, you know, private sector straight away. Any other benefits or challenges? Yeah. So I will say that at my current position, I am on an NIH grant.
So that's, um, depending on where you are, even if you are private, some of them are still grant funded, but again, it's different because I'm not running my own lab like someone else. Sure. You know, does the grant writing and it's, it's structured a bit differently. Um, and the institute that I'm at isn't only grant funded.
We have some grant funded projects like my own, but there's a lot that are not. So there's. Yeah, there's definitely a different balance there, um, and when I talk to people who work, who are at some other institutions that were sort of like this hybrid, you know, they're not academic, but they're also not for profit.
You know, these, there's a couple institutions that are a bit more hybrid and do still rely on grant funding, but they, a lot of them just seem to be structured very differently from a typical academic. Environment and I always explain that to people when they ask me about my position where I'm at and I say, because we don't have individual labs.
It's not just like, you know, there's 20 labs and people are doing completely different projects and they are, you know, completely independent of each other at the Institute. Everyone there's about 900 people who work there right now and everyone is there. A lot of the projects span hundreds of people.
They're very collaborative, and so the grants are a bit different because they're not RO1s, they're UO1s. There are different mechanisms for larger grants. So I think working in an environment like that, it's much more collaborative and interdisciplinary, and that's appealing to some people. That was appealing to me.
Um, you know, if people want to be more independent and really in charge of their own lab and in charge of everything that their group is doing. You know, it seems like an academic environment would be more suited towards that. But again, yeah, I like to work, I like working with people from different backgrounds.
Um, I tried to do that in graduate school through some of the different volunteer activities I, I was doing, um, working with other graduate students from completely different backgrounds and, and departments from my own. Cause I thought it was nice to learn from them and, you know, hear what they were doing and some challenges.
Yeah, I think it's, They're definitely, it's, it's, after you've been in one environment for so long, it is, it can be a little jarring just to switch. I imagine, yeah. Um, and realize, you know, things are maybe structured differently, or there's just a different way things are done, um, or like if you work at a larger institution, you know, you know, you're not just representing yourself and your research lab.
You actually, you end up representing, you know, sort of the larger, uh, institution. And so I think that's just a different change in mindset. You know, if you're, if you're a PI of your own lab, you have control over a lot of decisions, you know, about your lab, but you work at a larger institution that has more structure, um, and has a different hierarchical structure.
You know, maybe you have less control or slightly less freedom. Perhaps compared to, to making your own decisions, writing your own grants, right? Cause if you're working in a large team of people, you don't get to make all the decisions for, for everyone. You have to work with others. Which makes sense. Yeah.
So I think those are, um, some big differences. And also I think switching from studying, you know, your one dissertation topic for a number of years and having that be the main focus of pretty much your life for, for quite a while. Yeah. And then having to shift gears and, you know, you're at a new place and it's like, well, your very specific gene that you were studying before is not, you know, of importance to a new group.
Right. Or it's, um, you know, there, there's a different goal, there's a different mindset. So I think that's also tricky, you know, you spend so much time doing this one topic and then usually if you do a postdoc and want to open up your lab, sometimes that's a continuation of what you did in graduate school or it's inspired by that.
Some people switch and pivot to a slightly different research question, but I feel like it's usually still related, whereas if you end up going to a completely different company, you know, it's usually you're like in a different area. Right. Or not as in depth in your own research topic anymore. That's where adaptability would come in handy.
Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Can you adapt to, yeah, people who don't, you know, have the same knowledge and background as you. They have a different knowledge and background and now you have to work together for a completely different new topic. And that's energizing for other people. I mean, that's, it really is in the personality, I think.
Yeah, I think some people get to the end of their PhDs and they never want to hear their, you know, their gene or molecule ever again. And then some people are like, that's all I want to think about for my single focus. Yeah. 30 years. So just depends. Yeah. So in your current role, how do you see your work bridging the gap between scientific research and then real world applications?
Are there any particular industry trends that you're excited about in terms of innovation and impact? Yeah. So in my, uh, in my current role, I travel a lot to different research conferences where I talk to other scientists and I get to hear from them how they're using some of the data sets that we've produced at our institute.
And that's really exciting to hear because You know, being a, a nonprofit, we put everything out there online to the world, and we don't require a login or a fee or anything for people to access the data. It's just, here it is. Do what you want with it. And I used some of these data sets during my own graduate research, so I was Oh, wow.
You know, aware of them. Um, some of the older ones before I, you know, got this position. Because it's types of experiments and data that are, would be very, very difficult to do in an academic lab just because of the pure scale and instruments that are used and number of instruments and just the rapid pace.
So being able to access these very large data sets to guide your own research is very, very helpful because it was useful for me. And then I get to hear from, from grad students and postdocs and PIs and they say, Oh, I was, you know, I used your tool or I used your online data portal to access. This, this, and this, and now because of that, I'm doing this, and you know, these are my new results, and I'm writing it up in my grant that I, that I'm submitting next month.
That's great. I get to hear from people, you know, directly how they're using this, how it affects them, and some people have said, oh, you know, I published, I made a figure, you know, because you showed me how to use this, this data, and I analyzed it, and now this is a figure in my paper. So. The majority of people that I interact with in my role are, are almost all, uh, still in, in, they're in academic research, um, so it's exciting to see, you know, how their projects are moving forward.
But I, we, I did have an experience where I went to an Alzheimer's research conference and we were talking with, um, people in the Alzheimer's field because we have a very large data set, um, of transcriptomic data from, uh, an Alzheimer's cohort, uh, that we had at the institute, and There were many companies there who were very excited about that data too, because it's such a large data set that this is not only useful for academic researchers, but also people, you know, at pharmaceutical companies or, you know, in other industries.
And so it's exciting to hear that, yeah, lots of different people with different research interests and different backgrounds can, can use these data sets in different ways. In terms of innovation and impact, I think, I think there's a lot more computational analysis that's going on that I wasn't fully involved in during my graduate work.
I didn't do a lot of, um, you know, programming or, you know, machine learning or anything involving like AI. Right. But that seems to be in the last couple of years much more, uh, prevalent in neuroscience research. And so I think if people have more of a computational background and they can use these data sets and they have, you know, that.
Previous knowledge. They can do different things and get different insights from data sets that perhaps maybe a traditional, uh, neuroscientist wouldn't be able to get. So I think that's exciting seeing how people are sort of crossing over fields and using more, yeah, modeling and other types of methods that Again, I wasn't using before, but then I see someone else do it, and I think, oh, you know, that's really exciting that they were able to, you know, train an algorithm, get through this data analysis, and find this really cool, um, result.
So I think that's exciting to see how creative people are, are, are being in that aspect. Sure, AI definitely has been a buzzword in recent years, um, in terms of not just the impact on the biomedical sciences, but all sorts of industries. It's been phenomenal and a little scary, I'm sure, for some to see it, but it has been definitely interesting to see it play out.
We know that women face unique challenges in scientific fields, whether it is academia or industry. Um, what changes have you seen in the landscape for women in science? Do you think there's still room for improvement and where? Yeah, I think I initially noticed this. I mean, in, in graduate school, I could look around, you know, my cohorts and there were plenty of other women, you know, in my cohorts and in my classes, but then when you look up and see, oh, who is the tenured professors?
Who is the department chairs? That's where you notice and you think, oh, it's not quite, it's not quite the same. Uh, and then I learned at some point that there's a term that people use for this leaky pipeline, um, that women, you know, do tend to, tend to finish, uh, PhDs at, at, uh, pretty high rates, um, depending on the field, at least in biomedical sciences, it seems pretty, uh, pretty even, but that when you get to the, I think it's between like maybe postdoc and, you know, um, uh, assistant professor or perhaps around there is when women tend to, to drop out of the academic pipeline.
And, you know, I have a few friends now who are in postdocs and who are thinking about that, you know, the next phase of should I try to go for a profess, you know, a tenure track position or should I. Move to something else. And I think it's, you know, when you look around a department, you only see maybe one, you know, woman who is a professor in there, you know, and then they Ten to take on a lot of extra work, you know, perhaps compared to others, because people think, Oh, well, you're there.
You're the female perspective on this. You should join this committee or you can join this. I was just going to say that committees are the big burnout. Yeah. And I, you know, as a graduate student, I could look around and see that. And I would think, you know. Then you think, well, you know, I want to talk to, you know, this one professor about things, but then, oh, wait, she already has a lot on her plate, and I can see that.
So I think that's definitely still, and this isn't just in academia, this happens, you know, in other industries as well, where Yeah, you see women sort of taking on the default, like, administrative roles for certain things, even if that's not, like, actually in their job description. Sure. And so I don't know the best solutions for that, but that's definitely something that, yeah, that I've noticed, and, and I know some people, some women's response is, you know, maybe I don't like this environment, so I'm going to leave, which I completely understand.
And some people think, well, I don't like this environment, so I'm going to stay and try to fix it. Right. Right. Which, yeah, depending on your, your bandwidth and how you're doing, either option, you know, very personal decision on, on whether or not you want to do that. But I, yeah, I understand why certain, I think why certain women decide to, to leave at some point.
You know, they think this is, you know, if you don't like this environment, maybe you don't want to stick around and, and, and try to change it. And I think, yeah, so improving, keeping people in the, the field, I think is one thing. Because at some point people drop out and. You know, I think this is extra hard, especially because I knew some people who were trying to balance graduate school or postdoctoral while also starting a family, and, you know, that seems extremely difficult from, from what I've seen, and I'm sure that also plays a factor.
You know, um, some people, sometimes that ends up interfering with the path you want. Sometimes it doesn't. Um, but that's just like another extra stress that I feel like perhaps could contribute to maybe why women are not staying in. That came up particularly often, um, with a lot of my guests during the height of the pandemic because we saw the childcare.
really pushed a lot of women out of the workforce. And, you know, the sciences were no exception. Um, so I think that's a really good point. Yeah. And I've seen that with, um, I've read about those trends in relation to remote work as well, right? Because when people stayed remote after the pandemic, you know, it tended to benefit, uh, those who were working mothers, but then Certain companies decided with not a lot of notice, you know, we're going to go back full time.
And then that ended up, uh, from what I had read and ended up affecting, yeah, working mothers the most. Um, cause they had already figured out sort of a balance, you know, with sure there are other things and it's, uh, Yeah, I mean, I, I live in Seattle now, so I don't, yeah, I, I don't have any children, but I do know that it's, you know, childcare is extremely expensive and, um, it's, it's definitely something people have to take into consideration when they choose, you know, where they live, what they want to work on, um, what industry they're in.
Well, I want to talk a little bit about your time here with us at WVU as someone who's been a part of a training program like the T32, which you touched on a little bit earlier. What role do you think institutional support plays in helping women advance in their careers? And how can universities better support female researchers and their students?
It ties a little bit to the previous question. So I don't know if you have any answers for us, but the T32, I've, I've been focusing on some of our T32 graduates and specifically, um, because I do think there's some key things there that give some extra support just to students in general, for sure. I mean, I always appreciated the different perspectives from the different, cause we had a lot of, um, you know, external, um, seminar speakers that we would bring in for different T32 events when I was there and it was really helpful just to learn.
About their career paths what they were doing and you know that also included like a lot of women, you know, where it wasn't Yeah, so I got to hear, you know, from, from their perspectives and yeah, cause some of them came from similar, you know, institutions or some were, you know, some were international, had very different experiences from, from, from where they, uh, were at.
And so I think bringing in different people and having different perspectives was helpful. When I was there, we also, this was a number of years ago, uh, but we, the book club books that we had selected, one of them focused on, um, medical, um, sexism. And how that plays out, you know, today in biomedical research, Angela Siani, exact.
Yes. Yeah. And I, I was part of the group who got to, um, have a meeting with her on zoom. Cause this was, I think it was like the middle of 2020. So we were all still pretty, yeah, that was the height of the pandemic. I remember that. Yeah. So I, um, I think I was right when I, yeah, was like finished. Finishing the, my T32 time, but I, I really enjoyed that discussion and I was aware of, of some of those things, um, but then actually like seeing it all laid out, I was like, Oh, okay, this is, this is a lot.
And I, you know, I'm, and I think it's really important to not just have, you know, only like the female grad students, only the female professors read that book and be aware of it. Cause most of the stuff we already know, it's a very read her, not her books are very. the app. Anyone can read them and understand.
Yeah, it's when you're speaking in terms of communicating science. Um, she's a master at her craft. Yeah. And I think it was really helpful to have, I mean, the entire group read it, you know, cause maybe some of the male students were unaware, you know, of all this happening or some of the professors. Um, so I think having everyone read it together was, was an eye-opening discussion.
Yeah. So I think bringing in. External speakers giving different perspectives. Some of the conversations and books that we had were really helpful. And yeah, I'm trying to think. I think the T32 that I was on, I feel like it was it was either even like pretty split between maybe, you know, female and male students, or I feel like it might have been, I feel like there were a lot of female students on mine.
I'm not sure, you know, but, um, in that case, it was also helpful just to meet other women who are in other departments and figure out, um, and even different, um, colleges, right? Since we're in the school of medicine and They were in my theory 32. We had people from the other colleges at the university, right?
You're in like what's going on in your department or you know What are common issues you do deal with because I know that you know being in certain engineering departments Versus being in a biology department versus being different in a neuroscience department like there are There are definitely trends, um, and differences in what the ratios are, you know, of students and professors and just, you know, things going on.
So, it's helpful to, yeah, to talk to some of the women in other, other departments and figure out like, what are you guys doing? Or do you have any issues with this? Or, you know, just to, and also just to get to know people better from, from other departments. I have to say in speaking with you, the trend that I noticed the most is it seems like just cross pollination of ideas in general is something that energizes you.
Yeah. That's something that you lean into very heavily, which I don't think it's ever really a bad thing in any, any industry or field. Um, but it seems like in the sciences, it's, it's, really the basis for some of the most dynamic collaborations. So, were there any key skills that you think being on a T32, um, developed for you that are invaluable in your current role?
Yeah, I think so. In my current position, I, I travel a lot to different research conferences, and I also help run and organize workshops, um, at the Institute where we invite people to come to Seattle and that involves a lot of. organization and planning, you know, figuring out, um, hotels, figuring out, you know, just the general structure of the workshop, who is going to be speaking and when and what topics should we cover and how do we facilitate this and make sure that this is, you know, the right amount of information and data for this particular, you know, graduate student or postdoc audience.
And so, I think When I was on the T32, I helped organize some of the different events that we had, like when we had an external seminar speaker, you know, I was, I helped out with some of the organizing and those types of things, and planning, like the big symposium that we would have every year, like I helped, I think I was on one of the planning committees for that, and these are all soft skills that you might not think are relevant for, for a scientific career, but if you end up You know, running a workshop or something, you know, uh, you, you need to know how to do those things.
So I, I definitely highlighted those experiences when I was interviewing because my position, for my particular position, they wanted to know, you know, what's your scientific background, particularly, you know, what, what was your research, but also like, can you work with people from other backgrounds, from other, Yeah, from other academic backgrounds, from other research backgrounds, can you, you know, how's your project management skills, which I feel like people don't realize that like a PhD is sort of like a giant project management test of like many, many years, um, but actually being able to structure it out.
In a way that, you know, it makes sense, and you can explain to other people, well, you know, this is my process, I did this, and then I did this, and this is because of this, you know. Being able to actually verbalize what you did and why, um, is really important. And Being able to organize and manage like different moving parts, I think was also really helpful.
Like I, in addition to running some workshops, we've been running a webinar series where we talk about different data sets and different tools that we have at the institute. And so, I've been, you know, that involves, Public speaking, it involves, um, communication skills, it involves being able to organize, you know, and schedule, uh, webinars, you know, reach out to people from other, um, other departments or sometimes other institutes.
So, I think that type of organizational skills is something that you can gain during a PhD if you do. You know, extracurricular type things like the t32. Um, because you might not necessarily gain it if you were like purely just focused on your research for the number of years that you're there. I mean, you kind of, you have to organize your dissertation committee members a little bit.
So that that's one example. Yeah. Trying to get them all in one room for your annual meeting. But then, yeah, I, if you end up going to a, a research conference and you're representing a company or an institution, you know, I had to help set up the, one of the big booths that we have and, you know, all the stuff that's in it.
Sure. So not only knowing how to talk about, you know, science and talk about research with, with different, um, scientists from different backgrounds, but also all these other soft skills are actually very useful. And a lot of other ways. I mean, and that's because I specifically chose a job not at the bench anymore.
You know, I decided after my, uh, Ph. D. that I would like to do other, I would like to use my scientific knowledge in a, in a different way. Um, and I didn't necessarily, I thought, okay, I spent a lot of time at the bench that not for me anymore, I would like to, you know, do something else. So if you like, if you'd want to do something else, yeah, you need to rely on all those other, what's, you know, considered softer skills that you gained during, during your PhD.
Because yes, I learned a lot of technical skills doing a lot of, um, different, you know, procedures and assays and experiments and analyses. And even though I'm not doing those things anymore day to day, I still use that knowledge for, for understanding scientific literature, for talking to other scientists.
But then, yeah, those soft skills are also extremely, um, important. And being able to just work with other people in other groups, is also super important, um, that I think is, A skill, especially, yeah, when you're not running your own lab, when you're working in a larger institution, you know, they're, they're, in my experience, there tends to be more collaboration.
Right. So, just being able to work in larger groups, you know, make more team decisions is, are all important things, uh. That current helped me in my, in my current position. Sure. Speaking of soft skills, networking is often cited as a career to, uh, a key to career success. And I feel like you probably do this very well.
What strategies or approaches have worked for you in building meaningful professional connections? And how can women in science make the most of networking opportunities? Yeah, this part is, is tricky because I felt like, um, In, in graduate school, when I was thinking about postdocs or when I knew other friends thinking about postdocs, it was usually like, oh, a friend of a friend or like my PI knows this person.
It was all very, like, word of mouth, uh, you know, with who you were connected with. But if you want to break into a different network, a completely different industry, like, like I did, you kind of have to forge your own path. And, you know, I remember I was applying for, um, for an internship and someone, I knew someone who would work there.
She actually went to WVU. Uh, it was Savannah. Uh, so. Oh, yeah. And I. She's been on the show. Yeah. And I, um, we were in the same cohort. We started graduate school together, you know, the same, same day. And I remember thinking like, oh, is it, is it rude to, to ask her for a, you know, if I can reference her, you know, when I'm applying for this internship?
Because in my head I thought, oh, no, that's, uh, Why would you do that? That's rude. But I'm, I'm like, that's not rude. You've known her for like seven years. She knows you guys work together. Oh my gosh, yeah. I don't know why, but in my head I thought like, oh no, that's, you know, don't do that. That's rude. But then I thought, no, I, this is an actual time.
This is called networking and being, yeah, like you should actually do that. Use things to your advantage. So I, I talked to her and then I, you know, I ended up doing the internship and it was great and it was really fun to work with her. And yeah, so I remember initially thinking like, oh, that was like bad, you know, to do that.
But now I'm like, oh, no, you should hand out your business card to people. You should try to actually network with people. You should if you know someone well, and you actually, you know, know them on a personal level, like I knew her pretty well, you should. You see people, you know, as references. That's not like a, for some reason, I thought that would be like embarrassing or like, or like a bad thing, but then it might've been she that said, I can't, I'll, I'll feel like an idiot if I got this wrong, but I think it might've been she, that said on her episode, what, if you, the worst that will happen, you'll get no response or you'll get a negative response.
And so. Yeah, well, that's the absolute worst that can happen. So yeah, just go for it. Especially when you're going into a new world where like, again, yeah, I would, this was for like a science communication thing, which, you know, that's not my, my PI has like, doesn't have a network over there. That's, that was not his area of research.
So you can't just like depend on your PI for everything. You kind of have to figure out, Oh, if I'm going to forge a new path. Right. That they are not part of, you know, that they're not, um, part of that world, you need to learn how to advocate for yourself and, you know, make your own connections and sort of figure things out on your own.
Here in Seattle, I joined the Association for Women in Science. And so we have a pretty large chapter here in Seattle. So I've gotten to know like other women, um, cause even now, you know, at my current position, right, it's still important to keep networking. And I, I've only lived in Seattle for, I've lived here for about a year now, but getting to know.
Other people in the field, you know, there's a lot more startups out here and, you know, different types of, of researchers besides academic researchers. So I'm still figuring out like, Oh, who, who is out here and who should I connect with? And who should I, um, who is helpful to get to know? And yeah, I, you can't always just put all your eggs in, in one basket and think, well, I, I know this one person or this is my supervisor.
You know, I'm good. Like, I think you need to continue to keep branching out and finding new people and. You know, and more connections tend to create more connections, like I mentioned the internship that I did at the place where Savannah was working, and then, you know, my supervisor at that internship was one of my references when I was applying for jobs then, and it was helpful to show that, you know, I could have experience that was outside of academia doing different things.
You know, that was helpful to showcase as well. Well, great. We are almost done. I only have one final question for you. Do you have any key advice for young women or girls in thinking um, of pursuing science and medicine as a career? Yeah, I think if you're just really interested in something, just go for it.
Um, I think I was in high school when I told my parents I wanted to study neuroscience and they were like, what does that mean? And, uh, And so now you're just studying brains, you're just figuring out how brains work. And they were like, okay. And then I, you know, was very strategic in where I was applying for undergrad, uh, from who offered actual neuroscience majors.
Because back then this was, 15 years ago, so not every university had a neuroscience major like WVU just got it recently, the undergraduate one, right? So that's, um, it's still a, you know, a pretty newish field. Um, and then when I was applying for graduate programs, I specifically was applying for Very specific research topics that I knew I wanted to work on.
I wasn't just applying to anywhere. I was like, I was looking at labs, I was looking at, um, you know, PIs, what their publications were, and it's being very strategic and figuring out, well, I want to do, you know, this type of research, who's actually doing that? Because there's no point in applying to somewhere where it turns out you're not actually going to like any of the research.
Right. So if you know what you want, just be, you know, very focused and, you know, keep working at it. And, um, I mean, there were definitely obstacles thrown in, in my way throughout all of this, you know, pandemic certainly didn't help. Other things didn't help. Uh, but definitely just keeping forward, you know, and if you have a goal, just keep, keep working at it.
Great. Well, that's all we have for today's episode. If you enjoyed this discussion and want to hear more like it, Please don't hesitate to find our other episodes anywhere you normally get your podcasts and don't forget to rate and review. Rachel, it was a pleasure talking with you today. Thank you so much for being a guest on the Women in Science and Medicine podcast.
Yes, thank you for having me.