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The Grazing Grass Podcast features insights and stories of regenerative farming, specifically emphasizing grass-based livestock management. Our mission is to foster a community where grass farmers can share knowledge and experiences with one another. We delve into their transition to these practices, explore the ins and outs of their operations, and then move into the "Over Grazing" segment, which addresses specific challenges and learning opportunities. The episode rounds off with the "Famous Four" questions, designed to extract valuable wisdom and advice. Join us to gain practical tips and inspiration from the pioneers of regenerative grass farming.
This is the podcast for you if you are trying to answer: What are regenerative farm practices? How to be grassfed? How do I graze other species of livestock? What's are ways to improve pasture and lower costs? What to sell direct to the consumer?
Welcome to the Grazing
Grass Podcast, episode 96.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
be careful with buying things
if you think you need something.
just start without and buy
what you actually do need
Cal: You're listening to the Grazing Grass
Podcast, helping grass farmers learn from
grass farmers, and every episode features
a grass farmer and their operation.
I'm your host, Cal Hardage.
On today's episode we have Jared Luman.
You have probably listened to
him before as he's the host
of the Hard Quitter podcast.
We talked about his journey going back
home to the farm where they have Red Angus
and he ran Herefords for a little while.
And how they're managing their cattle
as well as utilizing some alternative
methods of grazing for, so that he
doesn't have to feed as much hay.
It's a wonderful episode and if
you've listened to The Herd Quitter,
I I'm sure you'll want to hear more
about Jared and what he's doing.
However, before we talk to
Jared, 10 seconds about my farm.
And today on the podcast with
Jared, as well as a few weeks
back when we had Jordan on,
talking about that warm weather.
Up north in Minnesota and thereabouts.
We're warm here in Oklahoma,
northeast Oklahoma.
The forecast is looking like really nice
weather through the end of February.
Grass is starting to peak out.
I mentioned that last week.
It's just continuing.
You can see some clover out
there green, fescue is green.
Lots of things starting to green up.
In fact, when you drive down
the road, you can look out on
the pastures and see some green.
That's besides the wheat pasture.
So, it's always an exciting time.
I think springtime on the farm
is most people's favorite.
It's always one of my favorites.
Just the, the opportunity to try
what I've learned since last year.
What I messed up on last year.
And see if I can improve upon it.
It's almost like a clean
slate in some ways.
Soon, cows will be calving.
We have hair sheep lambing right now.
Not on purpose, but they are.
I've got about 30 ewes
with lambs right now.
The goal was to lamb them in May, but
obviously I had a ram or two get out.
I knew that was the case and was
expecting it, so it didn't surprise
me, and I'm not sure how many is
going to go ahead and lamb early,
but right now they're doing good.
We've had really favorable weather.
Which is really nice.
Don't forget, if you're not part
of the grazing grass community on
Facebook, hop over there and search for
grazing grass community and join it.
Also check out our Patreon.
We have a bonus episode with Eli Mack
coming up on there shortly, but that's
enough about my farm and the rest.
Let's talk to Jared.
Track 1: Jared, we wanna welcome
you to the Grazing Grass Podcast.
We're excited you're here today.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
Oh, thanks Cal.
I, I'm excited to be here.
It's, uh, an honor to join you
on the Grazing Grass Podcast.
You put out great content, so the fact
that you considered me means either
you're maybe not as smart as I thought
you were listening to your other
podcast, or, or maybe I'm, I've got
something to share, so I appreciate it.
Track 1: Sadly.
I, I think it's both, so,
but we'll, we'll move on.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: sure.
Track 1: Jared, to get started,
tell us a little bit about
yourself and your operation.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
Yeah, sure.
So I am, uh, oh, gosh, you know, some of
those people have these great answers.
I'm a fifth generation farmer.
I don't know how many
family's been farming here
in southeast Minnesota.
Uh, when I asked my grandpa that back in
the day, he said, we've been farming since
we got off the boat that brought us here.
So we've been farming
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: and,
uh, we've got quite a few lumen here
in southeast Minnesota, but I, I farm
with my dad and, uh, both our wives, my
dad's wife Terry and my wife Valerie.
Um, we're running a little bit
of cropping a few hundred acres
of row crops, some conventional
no-till and some organic row crops.
And then our primary grazing
based enterprises, our, registered
red angu seed stock herd.
We, we raise bulls for
Pharaoh Cattle Company.
And so we've got about 230, uh, registered
red Angus cows that, uh, that we're
running here in southeast Minnesota.
Um, I guess something about the
context of our area is we're
primarily in row crop country.
And so the pasture that we
have is, it's, uh, mostly.
the ground, that's not
good enough to be farmed.
The stuff that's too rocky,
too wet, too hilly, too
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: And so
there's 30 acres there, 40 acres here.
And so we got like 550 acres of grass, but
it's spread over eight different sites.
So that's one of the challenges of our
context is we're kind of spread out.
And that's from 10 miles west of the
home place to 13 miles northeast.
So that's, uh, part of the
challenges we get to deal with.
But also because most folks are
crop farmers, uh, we're, we're maybe
able to be a little more competitive
in the grazing business 'cause
there's not as much competition.
So it's a, it's a pro and a con.
Track 1: Oh, very good.
I, I've got some questions on how you're
managing those smaller acreage with your
herd, but before we get there, did you
always know you wanted to be a grazier?
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
No, actually that's a good question
because when I grew up, I wanted
nothing to do with the cattle.
my least favorite thing of it all.
I, uh, when I, I grew up, I
loved sitting in a tractor.
It was my favorite thing to.
be doing row crop work
or I enjoyed making hay.
Uh, and then wasn't actually until I
was done with college and I realized
because of our farm, we have a few
pastures that will never be farmable.
I was like, we are gonna have
cattle so I might as well buy some
cattle and get into the business.
Once I got into the business of grazing
and, and beef cattle and cow calf and
managing a herd and seeing what they can
do on the land, that was where my love of
cows really and grazing really came from.
It's relatively recent and now it's
funny 'cause I graduated here just
over 10, just like 10 years ago.
And uh, so in most of my life I
wanted to be a crop farmer, but now
if I could have my way, we would have
everything in grass and we wouldn't
be doing crops at all anymore.
So definitely changed.
Track 1: I know when I went
through college, which was.
In case anybody's wondering more than 10
years ago, um, one of my good friends,
we, we both won to dairy, but he was very
much about row crops and he, he used the
dairy as a way to farm more, you know,
because he could, he could grow grain
for the dairy and, and make it more
effective in actually using the dairy to,
you know, process or value add to the,
the grainy grew, which I came from it.
I wanted to graze, I wanted to do the
New Zealand style grazing animals, and
I just, we didn't get there, but it was
very interesting, his philosophy on that.
I need to check in with him and see
how he's going with that, because
he loved nothing better than to
spend a whole day planning or,
or something I've never farmed.
So whatever he's doing down there.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
Yeah, no, that's funny.
I mean, your mindset's very
much like what my dad's was.
We actually, my, I grew up on a grazing
dairy and I never wanted anything to
do with it until, again, here lately
when I kind of found a passion for
grazing and now looking at the numbers,
the grazing dairy has some of the
most potential to generate revenue in
a grazing enterprise, especially on
smaller acres than like anything else.
And so it's a really
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
especially for someone getting into
the business of grazing, to generate
enough revenue to make a living off
of, on a relatively small acreage.
The grazing dairy's
got a ton of potential.
And every now and then, I'm just like,
dad, Val, my wife, what do you think?
Should we get back into the grazing dairy?
And they're all, well, my wife doesn't,
she's maybe not so excited about it.
And dad's kinda like, that's gonna be
you if you, if we do that, it's all on
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
I'm not that excited yet.
So we'll see.
Track 1: Well, I, I am, I've
mentioned this numerous times.
I am dying to buy a milk cow.
Or some dairy goats.
'cause I, I just loved that.
Um, I grew up on a dairy and
I knew I wanted to dairy.
Now how I was going to
get there, lots of debate.
But the, the thing that's keeping
me from pursuing that more, the old
dairy barn that used to set right here
behind my house blew down in like 2016.
We had a, I don't think it was, it
wasn't a tornado, it was straight
line winds, but it lifted that
whole barn off the foundation
and threw it across my driveway.
And so now I've got a slab out
there and I don't have a dairy barn.
If I had a dairy barn, the conversation
would probably, or not a whole dairy barn.
I mean, I'd have the structure, I
wouldn't have the equipment, but
sure, it would make me much more
tempted to, to be going there.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
Yeah, no, that, that, that's the big
investment, like the grazing business.
One of my
about it is the low upfront
overhead costs that you have
But the dairy, that's the one downside
of the dairy part is there is a bit more
upfront cost to get that parlor set up.
But, depending on what your
goals are, it could be worth it.
Track 1: So when you got those, so you
came home from college and got some cows,
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
So I mentioned we're cooperative producers
for feral cattle company, and we've
always been, I shouldn't say always,
time ago we had Cemental, but for the
last like 30 years of our farm or more,
we've been registered Red Angus cows.
And, uh, when I was.
The, the fall before I was graduating,
it was fall of 2014, there was
another cooperative producer in
Company who was selling
his herd of Herefords.
And, uh, so they were kind of similar,
low input, forage based Hereford cattle,
and they wanted to keep 'em within
the Pharaoh Cattle Company program
so they could keep marketing bulls.
And I was thinking, you know, maybe
this would be an opportunity for
me to have something of my own.
And my dad had just purchased a little
more land, so we had a little more
grass and we needed to expand somewhat.
So it seemed like a logical option.
long story short, it wasn't too
long and we decided to get back
out of the Herefords pretty quick
and just focus on the Red Angus.
They just weren't quite to the
level of where our reds were.
And it was like I could spend the next
10 years trying to make our herefords
as good as our reds, or I could just
have the reds that we already have and
not deal with 10 years of headaches.
So we,
Track 1: Oh yes,
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
we made that shift to a
hundred percent reds again.
But yeah, that was it.
It was a great way to start.
Anyway, if nothing else.
Track 1: I know one thing that I
see, I don't know if I'd say fairly
often, but I do see this happening.
A um, son or daughter
comes into operation and.
They adjust that breeding
program of livestock.
So, so for your case now, you
were starting your own, but
you were going with Harford's
your parents had done Red Angus.
I've seen it where the family has
always done limousine and now they're
doing some other breed or, or they've,
they've always had to red version, now
they're going to the black version.
And I know coming outta college
myself, you know, I wanted to, to
push the dairy more towards grazing.
And dad, dad was more,
we're bringing in the grain.
If you can do it without costing
us any money than we'll go with it.
But I was still learning it at the time.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it was, it was probably mostly just
a decision out of, not even thinking that
the Herefords were better or anything.
It was just like, if I'm gonna have
my own cows and you're gonna have
your cows, maybe it'd be simpler to
Track 1: Yes,
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
with a color difference.
And, and also there was however many, 30
producers within feral cattle company and
like only one or two Hereford growers.
So I was kind of
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
some potential here to diversify
our income a little bit and not be
a hundred percent reliant on the
Red Angus breed for our income.
Because there's always that
fear of will there be more
Red Angus than by bull buyers?
And so maybe by diversifying we
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
against that.
So
that was the
Track 1: Right.
Makes sense.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
behind it.
But those Herefords, they just hadn't
had quite as long as the Red Angus
had had in moving in this direction.
And they had a few issues that
I just, yeah, they didn't.
Didn't seem worth the hassle to spend
'em all fixed, so.
Track 1: Now, you mentioned there
before your dad became a, a cooperative
producer for Pharaoh Cattle Company.
He had Simmentals.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
So my grandpa, our, our farm as a
whole, and I don't know if this gets
into more detail than you want on our
farm history, but has totally changed.
Track 1: think it's
really interesting, so,
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: good.
Well then I'll see if you
feel the same way afterwards.
My grandpa, uh, back in like the sixties,
seventies, eighties, uh, was farming very
much progressive, high input, everything,
and he was milking a couple hundred cows.
In a high input scenario, a few hundred
registered cemental, big frame cows and
hundred sheep all registered and
seed stock sheep and, and every,
and farming over a thousand acres.
Him and his brother were farming together.
And, um, it was a very high
input, very progressive scaled
commodity farm at that time.
And, uh, we had an exchange student,
they had a lot of foreign exchange
students for labor to help with all
that work and the hang and the milking.
And there was a guy from New Zealand
that came over and told my grandpa
that everything you're doing is wrong.
You're doing
wrong, and you're, it's
just totally outta whack.
And you're 15 years behind
us over in New Zealand.
And, uh, I just give so much
props to my grandpa because he
could have been so offended.
And he's like, what?
You know,
progressive farmers, and everyone
looks at us with respect and, and,
uh, but he didn't, he, he said.
To my dad.
You bet you should go over to New Zealand
and figure out what they're talking
about, what this guy's talking about.
And so my dad went and spent
eight years in New Zealand and
and or not, excuse me, eight months?
Not eight years.
Eight Very different.
Track 1: Either way.
Still impressive.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
And learned he worked on a two
stations, a dairy, a grazing dairy,
and then a grazing beef and deer
station and brought that home.
And in the meantime, while my dad was
in college, my grandpa and his brother
split off farms and, and grandpa was
no longer a dairy, he was just kind
of a commodity beef and crop farmer.
And so my dad went off and started
a grazing dairy of his own.
And ever since then kind of focused
all of the grazing more on a low
input type grass-based animal.
And my grandpa got rid of the
ALS and switched to Red Angus.
And um, and yeah, so that's kind
of where the shift came from.
He just didn't see the
in that.
Super tall, lanky, gutless, cemental
for the, the right type of animal.
And, and that shift came out of there.
But yeah, it's weird to think
where we could be if that
New Zealander had never came
to us, our
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: we
could be broke or we could still be
farming the same way as everybody else.
I don't, I don't, I dunno.
Track 1: We do not have any CTAs
here, but CTAs were my first love
as breeds of cattle I can remember.
Um, so my grandpa dared and
he AIed like all dairymen do.
And when those exotic breeds
started coming in, in the late
sixties, early seventies, he started
breeding cows, two to those breeds.
And um, and Semial was
one he'd used quite a bit.
And I remember as a kid, probably.
I dunno, four or five.
I had a bottle calf that
was half semial, half hosty,
a nice charcoal color.
I loved, I loved the
color of it and stuff.
That was my calf.
And then shortly after that, my
dad had went to a, an auction and
purchased a semial bull auction and
he purchased a three quarter semial
bull Quarter Horned Hartford Bull.
And, um, we used that, that for years,
of course, we're talking the seventies.
I guess we sold all those cows
when we started dairying because we
started dairying when I was 13 and
we moved out with my grandparents.
But during that time, I found the,
the cattle of the world book and, and
Simmental has always fascinated me.
It's just that they don't fit my model.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Yeah.
And well, it's funny now because, well
Kit, and I've heard people say like
Kit Pharo that Angus have out Simmental
the Simmental, and now Simmental
considered the more moderate breed
as opposed to some of the Angus.
And I know people with
are probably better graziers than a lot
of the Angus and Red Angus out there.
So yeah, the But as a whole,
as a general, the breed, yeah.
Wasn't exactly known for.
Its, I don't know, its moderate
grazing efficiency kind of
an animal, that's for sure.
Track 1: And, and then the exciting
thing is they've started bringing
in the milky or the milk versions of
Simmental of course, they go by different
names, the Mons or the Fleckvieh and
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Track 1: the other, which, which
I think is fully fascinating.
And actually that's where I lean
towards, I'd love to get some Fleckvieh
heifers graze and to milk, but I.
That's enough about me.
I'm, I'm talking way too much.
This is about you and your journey.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Well,
we'll, we'll save that conversation
for when you're on my podcast, so.
Track 1: Oh, okay.
That, there we go.
That works.
Yeah.
So when you got these heifers,
these herefords in, sorry, got these
herefords in, y'all were already
grazing Red Angus, uh, for PCC.
So did you have your infrastructure
in or did you have to go in and do
anything to, to get started with it?
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: yeah.
No, we, we pretty much were already set
up for grazing, uh, part I did mention
how we picked up a farm, uh, that we,
was part of the reason why we
got more cattle, so there was
infrastructure going up there.
that would've had to be done
whether I got the Herefords or not.
But, uh, my, I, I benefited largely,
again, from my ancestors, my grandpa and
his not being too prideful to change.
And my dad, in the early two
thousands, he put in a ton of
infrastructure on our main farm.
is perimeter and even interior
fence with railroad ties and
high tensile electric and
Track 1: Oh yes.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
lines running with winter waters
at several points, and then above
ground water is running off of them.
So we had waterline infrastructure and
fence infrastructure throughout our farm.
uh, improved and increased some
in my time, but most of that, the,
the backbone of it was already
in place before I came home.
Uh, so I was fortunate for that.
I remember a lot of that being done
when I was a kid, but couldn't,
there's hundreds of railroad ties that.
That, I don't know if you've built
a railroad tie fence, that's,
those things are heavy and uh,
grateful to have missed
out on a lot of that.
And now when we build new
fence, most of that's done with
fiberglass fence posts instead of
Track 1: oh,
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
and that makes life a lot simpler.
But yeah, I'm fortunate to
have benefited from the work
of past generations for sure.
On the infrastructure
Track 1: oh Yeah,
And those interior fences
you're using High tensile wire.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
yeah, yeah,
Track 1: And then for the exterior
fences, what kind are you doing?
High tinsel there as well.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
all high tensile.
And we actually, we started with
interior and everything being
like, I think at one point when dad
built it early two thousands was
like six or eight wires for sheep.
He went big and
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: and
then got outta sheep a few years later.
And, and since then we've been
pulling wires off of old fences and
using 'em on new fences and stuff.
So we don't have six or eight wire
anymore, but it's all still, you know,
two or three wire high tensile electric,
on the main farm, which is nice.
Yeah.
Track 1: Now I know in your area
it's mainly farm ground, but
do you see on, on the marginal
land, do you see more high
tensile fencing in your area?
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Yeah.
I would say most of the fence, especially
new fence, is high tensile electric.
There's
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
barb wire.
There's a lot of old barbed wire I
would say that's falling down and
stuff, but most new build fences
going in high tensile electric and,
but there's of pastures that
sit vacant for a year or two.
They just don't have anything on it.
Not a lot, but there's
still a few that don't even
cattle or do their hay off every
year or something like that.
But yeah, the ones with fence
are mostly high tensile electric.
Track 1: Which I find
interesting in my area.
You don't see any high tensile fence.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
and I talked
Track 1: Uh, it's all five or
six strand barb wire fence.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
there's a guy, Colton Munger,
who I've had on, he's a son of a
cooperative producer out in Nebraska.
He is a fencing company and he says
everybody builds New is still Barb Wire.
Everybody
Brand is a guest, maybe a popular
Track 1: Oh yeah,
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
A red brand, barbed
like It's
Track 1: Is it red top brand, red brand,
like
that.
Because actually, I know because, or
I don't know the the correct name, but
we're putting up some goat wire and, um,
that brand's always a little bit higher.
It's really nice, but it's a little bit
higher than some other brands we look at.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
That's what it sounds like.
But, and I guess people want quality
and that's maybe fine, but I don't know.
I've talked to some folks who are
doing stockers and like backgrounding
yearlings and stuff like that, and
they've had trouble with barbed wire.
They'll just sit and rub and, but high
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
like it's more effective
for some of those guys too.
So, I don't know.
Seems to me like, but, and
then high tensile electric has
its challenges too, no doubt.
But yeah, I, it seems like the logical and
much cheaper and simpler option to build
for
Track 1: Oh yeah.
I, I think it's just a
paradigm shift for people.
Um, my dad.
We, we tried, and this is my bad,
I put up a few, a two wire high
tinsel fence and it didn't work.
But that's not on the fences part.
That's on my energizer
here at the home place.
And the way I had it ran,
it kept grounding out on me.
I just didn't do a good job with that.
So I take full blame for that.
But now dad thinks it's
crazy, even consider it,
which in that context
it was, it didn't work.
have to do some things better.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
Interesting.
goat fence you were talking about,
is that like woven netting then?
Track 1: Yes.
With like 12 inch stays.
So that's, that's enough of a
hole or wide enough that a goat
with horns can pull its head out
getting it stuck.
Because if you are using real regular
field wire with what, six inch
stays, they'll get their head in
and if they've got horns,
they can't get it back out.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
That makes sense.
Yeah, no, that fence, I, I like the thing
that scares me about sheep is, and, and
goats and stuff too, is the perimeter
fence and keeping 'em on the property.
I mean, they said it, I've always
heard people say, if, if the fence
will hold water, it'll hold a goat.
I'm like, well, that's high
bar to set fencing, but that
fence is kinda like barbed wire.
It's tough to install and expensive.
Track 1: And it, my experience
with goats, it's true now.
Sheep are much easier, but
that's a different topic.
But
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Track 1: Yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Sure.
Track 1: Now one thing you mentioned
about your properties, you're
grazing, smaller acreages in general,
are you moving the whole herd?
So you're doing whole herd and managing
like one mob, or do you have multiple
herds spread out you're managing.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: no,
and that's something we've questioned
what the right thing to do is.
I think I had Alan Williams on my podcast,
I think it was him that had said that,
oh yeah, you should run everything in one
group and move them from site to site.
And I just, I just don't see that
being efficient, uh, with such a
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: with
calves trying to move cow calf pairs from
farm to farm to farm, and we'd bring 230
pairs to a 30 acre field and be off in a
couple days and have to move 'em onto the
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: and
they're 13 miles one way from home and
another is 10 miles another way from home.
So we've mostly got
groups on different farms.
There's one like cluster of farms
close to home that we might have.
three farms and we might have one or
two groups that we move between those
three farms, and then there's four
farms and a cluster over on one side
that we might have two or three groups.
We move between those farms.
And then that's north 13 miles
that we just have one on that farm.
But, uh, so we're probably running
five or six different groups at a
time, but, uh, which saves a little
bit, but is, not, it's not ideal.
I would love to have everything
in one contiguous group that
would make life so much easier.
But, and, and then with management, like
the home farm, we'll move 'em one or two
times a day 'cause they're right there.
But those ones that are
away or more, we're maybe only moving
them every two or three days just
because it, we can't justify the drive
time and the labor to do daily moves.
Track 1: Right.
Yeah, I, I completely agree with that
and I, I struggle with that.
Um, one mob or multiple
mobs, uh, I've got my herd.
Dad's got his herd.
We keep them separate,
I've got some lease property, and
what I'd love to do is walk 'em
between everything, because mine's
not spread out as far as yours, but.
Th there's just some limitations
there that I'm not able to.
So it's a debate I have in my
head too, except I'm working
with much smaller numbers.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
And, well, I don't know about your
area, but a lot of those grazing based
areas are still, like all the farms
and all the fields, are they fenced?
So like roads are pretty much like alleys?
Track 1: Yes.
Basically, yes.
Out outside of just a, a handful of
properties, like, um, moving to one
place I have to fence a or I have to
run a polywire a quarter of a mile, but
outside of that, I'm just doing driveways.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
that's really nice.
'cause ours, everything is corn
and soybeans and fence rows
were pulled, fences were pulled
out many years ago for most.
So
Track 1: Yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: get 200
Track 1: It's really,
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
corn field,
that's a real miserable day.
But yeah.
Track 1: That would be,
We, yeah.
In our area, if you go and.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Hmm.
Track 1: And then if you go west
and west, probably at least two
hours before you hit some farming.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Okay.
Sure.
Track 1: we're all pasture here
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
that's nice.
Track 1: or hunting
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
Neighbors are
Track 1: a big, big thing.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
than than a row crop farmer, probably.
Track 1: Yes.
I would assume that is
the case because Yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
it's gonna happen, if it happens to them,
it's only a matter of time before their
cattle end out, up, end out on somebody
else's property, and so you kind of
gotta be a little more understanding.
Track 1: Right.
Um, I hate to admit this, but just
yesterday, was it yesterday day
before my neighbors called me,
they're like, Hey, your
sheep's out in the road.
So they put 'em in for me and
then I moved pastures with them
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Track 1: once they were in.
But yeah, they're very understanding
and, and like you said, we.
We told one neighbor, he may
drive his cows over to us because
can't get into his, um, working
system because of the mud.
So,
and we can get into ours.
So
I don't know if it's gonna happen, but
they work really good together
and they're really beneficial.
I have neighbors that's
not doing row crops.
I'm sure that would be a
whole different topic then.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: yeah.
No, we've had some bad situations,
but that's gonna happen, so
Track 1: It is, yes.
Let's talk about your, your Red Angus,
because that's what you're going with
now and PCC and how you're breeding
those and selecting breeding stock.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Yeah.
So Red Angus just happens to be the breed
that we've been in, but I guess I've
always been a believer that what's far
more important than breed specific is
the breeding program and like selection
and the management system
that the farm raises them on.
And so it's, it's kind of funny, like
feral cattle company, we have Black
Angus, red Angus Herefords, and I
would say our Red Angus are far more
similar in type and, and you know,
traits than with the other Pharaoh,
black Angus and the Pharaoh Herefords
than they are with the vast majority
of the Red Angus Association cattle.
Like we're just running
of cow.
so essentially we're just selecting
for the cows that can thrive
in an environment within their
environment as opposed to needing
to adapt the environment to the cow.
when you start adapting
environments to cows, that's
where costs go up significantly.
You've got buildings, you've got tractors,
you've got, you know, feed wagons and feed
harvesting and overhead goes up
and labor and expenses all go
up when you start doing that.
And so we've just tried to focus on a
cow that thrives in our environment,
and that's kinda what the whole Ferro
Cattle Company program is about.
And so our cows, I
guess, now have kind of.
type I guess we have is mostly a 11
to 1200 pound moderate frame, three,
four frame score cow, that's deep
bodied, easy flushing, low maintenance.
You know that cow that, every
cow had animal living being, has
a certain level of maintenance
energy requirement just to live.
uh, so a lower maintenance animal can
more rapidly meet their maintenance
requirements and more quickly
start diverting energy towards
putting on body condition was,
which results in getting rebred.
So we have a high fertility
rate in our cattle.
We're getting bred back with low quality
feeds and low supplement and all of this.
Being the hope being to reduce costs.
And,
I, I was just having this conversation
with a, a podcast I'll release in a
few days with Alan, Alan Williams, who
was saying now his cost to keep a cow,
managing a cow herd like this is like
350 bucks or 400 bucks a cow for a year,
as opposed to the national average of
somewhere around a thousand dollars.
yet people are focusing on buying bulls
that get them maybe a little more growth
or carcass traits or a little better,
you know, meat quality traits and stuff
like that, that might add a premium
of $50 to the value of their calf.
And they think that's winning.
Well, the type of program that
we're selecting for, and that all
Alan's talking about may not add
$50 in value to the calf, but it
saved them $700 or $600 in costs.
And so that's kind of how we
focused our genetics on trying to
increase profitability through.
Matching an animal to its environment
as opposed to maximizing its
production and, and carcass trait
potential, if that makes sense.
Track 1: It does make sense to me and
I do hear, um, in fact where, where I
used to work, one gentleman there, I
talked to him about his cattle, but.
You know, and I hate, it's so
cliche, but he talked about his
weaning weights and how big he was.
He was selling calves and he was
running, what was he running,
I wanna say Charolais Simmental
cross, but he had some big animals
and um, yeah.
And, and to me that's just focused
on the wrong, well, you, you
wanna maximize is never the, the
correct term you wanna optimize.
So we wanna optimize that income
we're bringing in, but we have
control over those expenses.
So if we look at that and figure
that out, and actually, and this
is something we can talk about when
I visit your podcast, but sheep
a very interesting thing when you start
considering low cost versus our cattle.
So.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
absolutely.
You know, we, that's all, you're right,
that's a whole nother conversation
that I've been thinking very much
more seriously about with sheep and
the numbers that they, bring in.
But yeah, no, you're, you're right on.
Um, and, and there's like, I think
optimizing is the perfect word.
I think so many times in the
history of any industry, but cattle
industry has always been about
maximizing something and going all
And we can go all one way on the
efficiency and maxim maximizing low
input and low efficiency too, and, and
end up with cattle that look like sheep.
But what we
in then as a calf that's not marketable.
And now we've that's, we're losing
profitability because we focused on
maximizing grazing efficiency, but we have
an unmarketable calf and our dockage is
so significant that we've lost profit.
And so we've tried to optimize
like, what is this optimal cow
that is, is optimum in terms of its
efficiency and grazing efficiency.
But also still provides a marketable calf.
'cause the vast majority of our
producers that are purchasing, I
mean Kit Farro, farro cattle company
sells to a thou 1100 bulls a year.
of those producers are still marketing
through some sort of a commodity channel.
Either
or they're finishing them out
themselves and and marketing beef.
And so we can't produce an
animal that's not gonna provide
a quality marketable animal.
They'll end up, you
know, upset and leaving.
So there still has to be
optimum's a perfect word, you know, that
Americans in general probably
have this very good thing at when
they set a goal, they just go
past where
Track 1: All after it.
Yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
a hundred percent.
Track 1: Now, when, when you consider your
cows and where you're going with them,
what do you think's the, the, the thing
that has the most room of growth for you?
The most?
Yeah, the most room or the most
potential would be a better word
for growth in that area.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
That's a good question.
And you know what?
know if it's a cow genetic
type specific thing because.
Like we just talked about, this
idea of optimum is that there
is a point where you've reached
it and if you keep going for
you're just moving past.
And I'm not gonna say is perfect, but
we've been breeding towards what this
optimum is for close to 30 years.
And I'd say we're getting pretty
close to the right type of
our environment.
That being said, the big thing that
I think we want to try and figure
out is, that we've been making some
pretty big strides at in the the last
couple years, is our winter feed costs.
And we don't have to talk too much
about that now 'cause that kind of
gets into the, what we're gonna talk
about for the overgrazing section,
but is kind of that winter feed
cost and how we can reduce that.
'cause in an upper Midwest scenario.
I mean that is our biggest
challenge is when most people
are feeding hay up here for.
or seven months, and
that's, that doesn't work.
You talked about dairy earlier.
And a dairy cow has a gross revenue
of like four or $5,000 a cow.
They can afford some overheads
and some feed costs, but
that are dairy retirees move to beef
cows and they try to run a beef cow
like that, there's just not the gross
revenue to start covering those costs.
And so we gotta figure out a
different way to make it work up here.
And that's what we're
trying to figure out.
Track 1: Right.
Yeah.
and that, um, winter grazing,
I'm, I'm excited to have that
conversation in a little bit.
For your summer grazing, are
you, um, broadcasting or drilling
in anything for summer annuals?
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
So we have done some, we've, we've
messed around with different uses
of annuals and stuff like that.
Um, where annuals seem to do a
really good job is a few things We
have mud season up here this march,
April timeframe where the ground is
the top down and uh, and it
just turns into a muddy mess
and they rip up some ground.
every year we'll have this area that
we kind of turn into a sacrifice
area that we'll we'll do that with.
And, uh, we find sorghum, sedan,
grass, and kind of planting a summer
annual is a really good way to help
rectify that soil and bring it back.
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
the other beautiful thing that I
really love about sorghum sedan
grass is, is using it essentially as
like a forage supply chain balancer.
Like we've got all this cool season
perennial grass that we have a
massive summer or spring flush.
This 60%
comes in like 60 days.
And then we have this summer slump where
we have a deficit of grass and warm
season annuals like sorghum, Sudan, grass.
They just keep growing without kind
of going rank like cool season.
We can't just stockpile our cool
season grasses and expect them to
be there and, and available for us
in August and high quality feed,
they're, they're gonna have lost a
quality.
And so that's where the warm season
annuals are really nice tool to
help balance where we can that
spring flush, kind of match our cow
herd to our spring flush capacity.
And then when the summer slump comes and
our cool seasons slow down and we're not
ready to start the next rotation because
the grass isn't recovered, we can move
to those warm season annuals to kind
of balance that cool season deficit.
And that's been
nice.
And, and also it's just really productive.
We're seeing in the summer and
fall when we're grazing before
snow comes, we can get like 180
to 200 cow days per acre of that.
Track 1: Oh wow.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: and so
the, when we can get that much production
on an acre that really, that really helps
keep the cost down and, and we can produce
a lot of feed and balance that, that.
Summer deficit with a relatively small
amount of acres, which is really nice.
Track 1: Are you going
in and drilling that in?
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
yeah, yeah.
And if it's really torn up from
mud season, we might even have to
do a little tillage before to kind
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
kind of level out the soil.
And I mean, there's big tractor
ruts and you know, you can
Track 1: Oh, I imagine so.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
two feet deep tractor ruts and stuff.
So we'll do a little bit of that
and, um, and stuff just to fix it up.
But then yeah.
We'll, we'll drill.
We don't do a lot of broadcasting
because in our environment up
here, there's people who have tried
broadcasting annuals into a cool season
perennial, but we're so far north.
Our cool seasons never really
go fully dormant on a very
hot, dry year.
The cool seasons might be slowed
down enough to get some establishment
from a warm season annual.
most years it probably doesn't.
So really the only place the annuals
can go is on a, a tillable acre.
That's purely set aside
And then broadcasting, we, we wanna
make sure we get a really good
establishment and good production.
'cause this tillable acre is
worth $250 an acre, so we need
to maximize the production out
we'll drill it just to make sure we
get a good stand and good out of it.
Track 1: yeah.
Those opportunity costs on a tillable
acres is a lot different than
when you're talking about pasture.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Exactly.
Track 1: Yeah, yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
that's the big one.
The land cost is, it's rough.
Track 1: Oh yeah.
I, I talked to someone not too far from
me and they've used sorghum, some Sudan,
and they broadcast it where they fed hay
and it, it's came up good
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Really?
Track 1: and yeah, they, they just
broad broadcast it in those, they
just, not necessarily bell grazing,
but they were feeding bells out.
And where those circles of hay
that you've got left over, that
takes two years for it to recover.
They were broadcasting it in those
areas, which looked interesting.
In fact, dad and I was
talking about that other day.
We may try a little bit of that.
Uh, I do have a, a old grain drill
I could try using a little bit.
I don't know.
I, I know your context being that
far north, much different than mine,
but any, um, any advice you
have on sorghum Sudan grass?
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Well, like you said, your
context is different.
So one of the, the learning lessons
that we had, I guess, was we stockpiled
it to graze in late, late winter
one time, to try and graze after
cornstalks, and we ended up with this.
75 acre field of corn, corn, or
excuse me, of sorghum sedan grass
that ended up buried in snow And we
were, instead of able to get 200 cow
days per acre, we maybe got 30 or 40.
you that got 300, if you got $300 in acre
into cost and you only get 30 cow days per
acre, that works out to $10 per cow day.
so that's a really, really
expensive feed source.
So that's like one learning lesson
we had is you're gonna produce it,
struggled with stockpiling that because
we weren't able to utilize it that year.
Now that happened to be on a farm that
is a no-till crop farm and we couldn't
go back and graze it in the spring
'cause we didn't wanna mud up his farm.
If it was on the
we could have, you know, captured some of
those days back in the mud season or after
the mud season in the spring potentially.
But, you know, that, that was a challenge.
otherwise.
That, that sorghum, it's a fantastic crop.
It's been amazing for soil structure.
There's, I, I don't know if you've ever
heard of the Soil Your Undies test thing?
Track 1: Actually, I
think I have, but I can't.
Well, I went to the Noble Research
Institute in Essentials of Regenerative
Grazing, and it was brought up there,
but I can't remember it completely.
So why don't you share that with us?
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: So
essentially the idea behind the soil, your
undies thing, it, it's kind of silly, but,
uh, you take a bunch of white underwear,
cotton underwear that are carbon based
and you bury them out in the soil
Track 1: That's right.
Yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
biological soil, biological activity test.
And the idea being that your more
biologically active soils will decompose
and tear up that underwear and all
that you'll be left with is the, uh.
The, uh, uh, what do you call the
stretchy, the rubber band part of the,
of
Track 1: Right.
Yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
And in a very biologically dead soil,
it'll just be pretty much intact.
It'll be dirty, but it'll just be intact.
And so I've done that on
our farm just as a trial.
And that sorghum, was interesting when
I was digging into that sorghum field,
I had never seen more earthworms than
in a square foot of that, that sorghum
Track 1: Oh
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: and
the soil structure just in one year of an
annual, it was this beautiful chocolate ka
granular kind of, uh, uh, soil structure
and, and aggregation was phenomenal,
even better than our long-term.
Perennial pastures.
Not, not all of 'em, but
it was right up there.
And so I've been amazed with what
sorghum can do for soil in just a year.
Also, in kind of a cropping context,
which it sounds like you're not, but
maybe somebody might be listening.
Uh, it's been really good for, in
our organic crop rotation, because.
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
sorghum plants grow 10 feet plus tall
and just smother out all the weeds
beneath the, beneath the canopy.
And so it's a really aggressive,
fast growing plant that can really
do a really good job of, uh, breaking
the weed cycle and smothering out a
lot of weed pressure underneath it.
And so we like it for that.
It's a really cool, versatile,
multi-benefit, uh, beneficial plant.
the challenge is it's expensive.
Uh,
and it challenges, trying to graze it when
you're dealing with 10 foot tall plants,
but those, you can, you can work around.
Track 1: yeah, we are, you are the
second person in just a matter of weeks.
It's just sung the praises
of sorghum Sudan grass.
So it really, in fact, um, on my
desk here have, um, Dale Strickler
managing pastor book.
I was looking it up earlier, trying
to, to gain more knowledge about it.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Well, I'm, I'm, yeah.
He's been a guest a couple
times on the podcast, has a,
uh, that fantastic resource.
And he knows a lot more about
cover crops and different plant
than I'll I'll ever know.
Track 1: I agree.
Well, Jared, it's time to transition
to the overgrazing section, and today
on the overgrazing section we're gonna
talk about something that I know even
less than I usually know about stuff.
Cornstalk Grazing.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Yeah,
Track 1: Just just to start, I'm assuming
it's cornstalks and you're grazing it,
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: that's
Track 1: can you give us a
little bit more context there?
Oh yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
that's spot on.
Yeah, so of things, like I talked
about my context here in Minnesota.
Uh, two challenges slash
opportunities I guess.
Uh, biggest challenge is our
winter winters are rough.
We get a lot of snow, and the snow
is, isn't even so much the issue
is the ice that comes, but uh,
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
um, winter feed cost is expensive
and most people in this area are
feeding hay six or even seven months
a year, and that's really expensive.
And we just knew if we were gonna be
in the cow calf business long term.
though we have this premium market being
seed stock producers, we could continue to
chug along and potentially make a profit.
But to really be sustainable or
competitive, we have got to figure
out how to reduce our feed costs.
And, uh, I kinda mentioned both the
challenge and opportunity also of our
context is we're surrounded by crop
farmers, lots of corn and soybeans around.
And so all of these corn fields have
what a lot of people literally refer
to as trash is their crop residue,
their corn stalks they call trash.
And that's a concern for a lot of 'em.
They have to figure out how to remove
that crop residue so that the soil can
be warmed up earlier in the spring.
Most rectify that challenge with
tillage, they turn it over, the soil
black so that it can start decomposing
that stuff and, and the soil can
warm up in the spring quicker.
But, uh, we look at that as
that's a huge resource for us
for savings, uh, because if we're
like.
to $3 a day or even more, but we
can do it on cornstalks for 60 cents
or even, uh, a little less or more
depending on how much infrastructure
and work we have going into it.
But, uh, essentially cornstalk grazing
has been the thing that has really changed
our business to know where we we're
grazing in our context until the end
of January or even into early February,
where most people are done grazing
October, uh, first or end of October.
And so saving three plus months
of feed costs, $2 plus a day in
feed costs by grazing corn stalks.
And, that's been a huge asset to
us, and it, it really isn't that.
Challenging.
It's pretty similar to grazing,
grass grazing anything.
You just need fence and
water and uh, and, and
Track 1: Right.
Yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
do the rest.
Big part of that conversation
is having the right type of
a cow that can handle it.
If you don't have the right type of
cow, you have to be ready to supplement
with some sort of protein because
corn stalks are essentially dormant.
I mean, they're dormant,
warm season forage.
They're just the grass,
the leaf of a corn plant.
So it's not a super high quality feed.
And so two things.
One, we've shifted our calving season
back to April, may, June, so that that
aligns their period, non lactating, low
nutritional requirements with when we
have, when we're grazing corn stalks.
And then
the right type of cow to be able to adapt
to the, and do well on those corn stalks.
But yeah, does that make sense?
Hopefully.
Track 1: it, it does.
Now are you using, are you only grazing
your all's land or are you able to,
to lease some land to do that as well?
I.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
So we, we do not have enough
land of our own to just graze
our own cornstalks at this point.
So we're grazing on a few other farms.
We kind of have two farms
that we work with primarily.
And one of them it's, uh, it's
interesting, one of 'em is full
tillage and he wants the ground
tilled before the ground freezes.
the other one is a no tiller,
and he doesn't want cattle on the
ground until the ground freezes.
So it,
out actually pretty well for us that we
just go to the one tillage guy and we'll
graze corn stalks on his as late as we
can until the ground starts to freeze.
And then when the ground's frozen,
you know, or just before we'll
move 'em, off and, and he'll come
in and do the tillage and we'll
move the cows to the no-till guys
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
And so we kind of balance that.
Now, the challenge with that,
again, is fence and water.
we're fortunate that the one, the
tillage guy, he's right next to our
farm so he can water off of our farm.
But the other one is 10 miles away.
And so we'll drink outta creeks or drink
outta streams or tile lines that he has at
his farm, and that fixes the water issue.
But the fence issue is the challenge.
And it, see, it can seem pretty daunting
to put up a fence around a farm, like,
I mean, building up a fence and then
we'd have to take it down before the
following spring so that they can
plant their crops and everything.
And that seems pretty daunting.
But realistically, we've been able
to put up a single wire, high tensile
electric fence around a, we did 180
acres one year, I think two days we
built it and we took it all back up in
one day in the fall or in the following
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: And
so really it was three days of time,
that saved us $2 per day on 200 cows.
So $400 per day for close to three months.
I mean, we're talking.
Thousands of dollars, well worth
the time to build the fence.
that's been the tr the challenge is
the infrastructure, but if you're
willing to put in a little work,
it's worth the cost in my opinion.
Track 1: It sounds like it.
Now I have a question for that.
You tearing down that fence, so
you put high tinsel wire, are you
using like a spinning ginny to
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah,
Track 1: reel it up some way?
Because that wire can get pretty crazy.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
Your arm would be burning by
the end of rolling up that.
Track 1: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
have, we have a, a hydraulic roll reel
reel that we reel it up with, and so
Track 1: Oh, okay.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
in the posts, we'll have our loader
tractor, just a front wheel assist
loader, a bucket full of posts.
My dad will drive the tractor,
I'll be up front and he'll walk.
I'll grab a post, and then
he uses the bucket to just
push the post in the ground.
we just kind of just walk right along
and posts in and then we'll pull
the wire off the back of the tractor
and we just pull the wire out and
so we can build it pretty quick.
And then rolling it back
up is the same thing.
We just roll it up with our hydraulic
reel and then dad's in the tractor and I'm
going out front, putting the chain around
the post, pulling it out, throwing it in
the bucket, and moving on to the next one.
So it's pretty efficient with the
right tools and the right two bodies,
two bodies and the right tools.
And you can build or take
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
pretty quick.
Track 1: Would you or would use the
wrong start to that question instead
of using high tensile wire and posts
like that, would poly braid and tread
in post not work in that context?
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
Yeah, that's a great question.
So we have used that.
Uh, we, we pretty much just do high
tensile wherever there's a road.
this 180
Track 1: Makes sense?
Yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: that.
180.
a mile of that was road frontage
and we put up high tensile around
that and the other was just
neighboring a, a neighbor's farm.
And I don't know why it probably
really isn't any difference 'cause
if they break, if they break through
the wire along the neighbor's farm,
they can just walk to the road anyway.
So it's not for some reason there's
more of a sense of security with
that high tensile along a road I
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: But
Track 1: Yeah.
Well, I, I can see that.
Yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
but we put the high 10, we put
the polywire around the rest
and probably would be just fine.
Even with Polywire along a road,
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
would be just fine.
There's about a sense of
security and that's one thing
Solberg has always said about
fencing is that you build the fence
that you can sleep at night with.
And there's a lot of truth to
that because realistically we all
could make do with less fence than
we have oftentimes well, a good
fence with good electricity and good
grounding and right space wire spacing.
It doesn't have to have a bunch of wires
or the right or, or something like that.
But uh, yeah, it's just
something personal comfort.
Track 1: Yeah, I, I completely get that.
Yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Mm-Hmm.
Yeah.
Track 1: When you started that, or those
agreements with those other landowners
to, to graze their corn stalks, were
they receptive to that or did that
take us some time to get 'em on board?
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Another fortunate relationship thing.
One, the early, the tillage guy, he
is kind of views the corn stalks as
trash and that he wants them gone.
And so
Track 1: Oh, yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
have us graze them because he
generates a little more revenue.
both of 'em generate a little
more revenue of, uh, I mean,
roughly saying if we get 60 cents.
If we pay 60 cents per cow day and we
can get 60 cow days per acre, that's
an additional $36 per acre that they're
generating off their cornfield that
they wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
it's taking care of a problem.
The no-till guy, he actually, he learned
about kind of soil health and was
excited about the idea of integrating
livestock and using that to turn
into nutrients.
So that one was even less work.
But not everybody will
be receptive to that.
We just happen to find two people who
are in the right mindset towards it.
All that, you know,
saw it as a good thing.
So that that
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Track 1: And I think you mentioned
something there right at the beginning
that like finding land to lease is always.
S always difficult finding them,
but it comes down to relationships
and, and those relationships,
however they get started.
Um, whether that's asking to lease
the land, start of that relationship,
but that relationship will determine
how far you can go with that
much of the time.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Agreed.
Completely.
There has to be an element of
trust and understanding and yeah.
All of that comes through
building relationships.
It's huge.
Yeah.
You're
Track 1: right.
Yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Mm-Hmm.
Track 1: Jared, that's really
interesting about the cornstalk grazing.
That's, like I said, it's not something
we do around here, but I think that's
a, a great way to help lower those
winter costs and, and to utilize
something that's trash to someone else.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: yeah.
And like you just mentioned something
that brought something to mind of you.
Don't utilize it around there.
I, I didn't remember I had, I had
forgotten, but there were actually
two years where we sent our cows down
to Nebraska to graze corn stalks too.
And
Track 1: Oh yes.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
Cows can travel to do this as well.
Um, you know, we don't, it, it,
we, we sent them all the way
down there and paid a custom rate
per day and paid the trucking.
And between the trucking and the custom
rate, the cost worked out to maybe a
dollar 50, a dollar 60 per head per
day, which was still saving probably a
dollar compared to feeding hay at home.
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
hassle of having all the cows at home.
you know,
you know, that's, uh,
another thing, relationships.
We happen to know somebody who
knew him and stuff, and that
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
you know, if this is something
that's not in a particular person's
neighborhood, it doesn't mean it's not
an opportunity that couldn't work and
we sent them 500 miles and it worked.
Maybe you're a little closer,
maybe you're within 200 miles of
a cornfield that it could work on.
And, and
that good opportunity for somebody.
So,
Track 1: Yeah.
That's, that's great.
Out of the box thinking there.
Yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah.
Track 1: When, when you did, when you
do the corn stock grazing, are you,
you, you're, oh, stumbling on my words.
Look at that.
You're making it so far into winter
without feeding, feeding hay,
but you're still having to feed
some hay to finish up the winter.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: yeah.
Usually like four out of the last five
years, we've much been able to hit that
last week in January, right up until the
February.
So we're feeding still February, March,
April, and then early May, depending on
how early the grass is ready to grow.
So three months, three and
Track 1: Oh
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
months, we're feeding hay.
And
Track 1: are you buying
hay and bringing it in?
Sorry about that.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: problem.
Uh, we, we make some of our
hay and we buy some of our hay.
this year is actually our first year
trying bale grazing corn stalks.
So
Track 1: Oh,
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
if we'll be we'll like or not, but
like I said, usually the reason we're
getting off of corn stalks is because
the, uh, snow and ice get too deep.
This year we had to take 'em off of
corn stalks 'cause it was too muddy
'cause it's so warm for some reason.
uh, but we're, we've actually
made some cornstalk bales off of
a neighbor's cornfield and we're
feeding that to our cows now, which
is the first time trying this.
And so far it seems to be working
pretty good and it's cheaper than hay.
So
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
continue to do that in the future.
We'll see.
Track 1: Interesting.
Yeah.
Be excited to learn how that, um,
wraps up for you all and how it
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
I'm as well.
Track 1: Jared, it's time for
our famous four questions.
Same four questions we
ask of all of our guests.
And as we were talking about, um, before
we got started, I stole that off of the
BiggerPockets podcast, so don't tell them
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
I won't tell anyone.
Track 1: our first question.
What is your favorite grazing
grass related book or resource?
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
so there's a bunch of 'em,
but you ask for the one.
And my favorite is, uh, the
turnaround, A rancher story by Dave
Track 1: Oh yeah,
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
And it's not specific to, of it is
grazing grass ecology, but a large
business, uh, of a ranching,
a Grazing Grass business.
It's just a fantastic WR written book.
He wrote it in a story too,
so it's not like a textbook.
It's super readable.
I'm, I really enjoy
reading when I get time.
I don't often get time, but this was
a book I picked up and I just read
and just kept writing, reading 'cause
it was just really, really good.
I think, I think everyone who
wants to run a grazing grass based
business should read that book.
Track 1: I, I think so.
I think anybody who farms
probably needs to read it.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yes.
Yeah,
Track 1: too often the business side of
farms is forgotten, so, you know, ranching
for Profit does a great job with that.
Um, I, I probably was introduced
to that book from a guest on the
podcast, but I really enjoy that book
and the information in it.
I, I wish it got a little bit
deeper, but it definitely gets a,
gets you thinking about it and,
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: get
Track 1: and some of the things
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
If it was too deep, you
Track 1: I, I know.
I need to go and I haven't, uh, it's just,
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
Oh, right
Track 1: maybe soon
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: so you
wouldn't even have to travel too far.
That's where I went to my
City.
Track 1: Oh yeah.
There's one coming up in Oklahoma City.
Not too far in the future, so, yeah.
Yeah.
So, so you came down to Oklahoma
City at Go to your school,
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: I did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not that it's too
and I shouldn't be promoting 'em.
They get enough promotion and plugs
through different podcasts, but that
has an open bar in the
evening and fantastic food.
So if you want to go to a good one, they
was just a good venue.
Track 1: Well, that is an
excellent resource, Jared.
Our second question, what is
your favorite tool for the farm?
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: yeah.
And I don't know if you consider a
four-wheeler to be a tool, but that
makes life so much easier to get
around and pasture and, and whatnot and
haul all your posts and reels around.
So I'm, I'm gonna have
to go with four-Wheeler.
Track 1: I, I think that's
an excellent answer.
In fact, I don't have one right now.
Um, I use my pickup and I walk,
that is on my short list of things when
I decide I shouldn't buy any more income
producing units anymore, ewes, um, a quad,
a four wheeler would be great to have.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah,
Track 1: I browse the listings
occasionally, but I haven't
pulled the trigger yet.
'cause I'm like, well, I
could buy a cow or two more.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
And well, you could buy several
for, especially if you look at
things like the side-by-side.
I say
'cause like the side-by-sides
are like cars for a
the, the actual mileage
you can get out of them.
Track 1: Right.
I, I agree.
I struggle with that because my parents
have a side by side and I love using
it, and I think, oh, that'd be so nice.
But then I look at the prices.
I'm like, A four wheeler
will do what I need it to.
Of course, twice a year, three times
a year when my wife goes out with me,
a side by side would be really nice.
But, but she, she is not going
out there to help me work.
She wants to go out there and
look, and probably the pickup
serves that purpose better.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: yeah.
Track 1: It,
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
you're right.
Track 1: I look at those prices
and I think, well, maybe I should
look into a used Jeep to give
me some of that functionality.
Um, I haven't, haven't got far enough
down there to, to start that process,
but that's where my mind goes because
those prices are in my mind, outrageous.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
absolutely.
I mean, I drive a special.
2008 F-150 I bought for 7,500 bucks
and I'll get a out of that thing
based on the miles I bought it at.
And that 7,500 bucks is like a third of
the price of a base model side by side.
And, uh,
Track 1: Yes.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: by side,
you'll maybe only get 10 or 15,000 miles
out of it, and you can't drive down the
road legally too far with it and stuff.
I mean, man, there's,
yeah, there's a lot more.
If you're looking for fun and it's
a toy, that's one thing, but I'd
say it's pretty hard to justify as
a tool in a grazing based business.
Track 1: Our third question,
Jared, is what would you tell
someone just getting started?
I.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: Yeah,
this is something I, I think one of the
best things of a grazing grass business
is the fact that you can run this
business with little to no overhead.
And I just talked about a four-wheeler
being one of the, my favorite tools.
So I get that, that that's
maybe a little hypocritical.
But if you compare to like any other
business model in agriculture, like
row crop specifically, or feedlot
or something like that, you got so
much money in buildings and equipment
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
tens of, if not hundreds of thousands
of dollars where you can get into a
grazing business with a few hundred
bus bucks and posts and reels.
And
Track 1: Mm-Hmm.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330: And
you can walk, I, we have a couple farms
walked.
'cause we have these
eight different farms.
We don't have a
four-wheeler on all of them.
I do some walking too.
You can start like that with just a
few hundred bucks and post some reels.
And if you want to get a little crazy,
you can buy a four-wheeler for a couple
thousand bucks and you know, you can
expand your fleet over time if you want.
But a lot of the things that you
think you need to get into a cattle
business, like a big tractor or a
truck and a trailer, you need a one
ton dually and a 30 foot gooseneck.
I mean, those are things that
are nice, but you can make
do without for a long time.
Uh, hire a lot of that work
done pretty reasonably.
Um, especially starting out.
So I'd say be careful with buying
things if you think you need something.
just start without and buy
what you actually do need.
Find you need in a couple
days or a little bit.
And, and over time, use profit
to buy things that maybe make
your life a little bit easier.
But don't, put yourself in a
hole that you can't dig out of.
'cause you wanted to buy something that
you probably shouldn't have at the start.
Track 1: Oh yeah, I completely agree.
Um, I love the Profit First
Book by Mike, uh, Chu.
I can't even say his last name.
I practice it because I know I
bring it up every once in a while.
Uh, and then I'm reading a book, A
Million Dollar Weekend right now.
And one thing he's big about is you
gotta get that profit initially,
but yeah, you get, you
gotta start turning.
Profit and Grazing has a
very low bar for entry.
On materials, you gotta have some
knowledge and you can get that knowledge.
But, you know, some wires tread
in posts and poly, uh, and a reel
do quite a bit.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And then there's even a spectrum in,
in polywire and posts and stuff too.
I mean, you can buy the, like $2 a
post fiberglass post from Fleet Farm.
And the, some of my favorite reels
are the electric plastic, electric
cord reels for seven bucks at
Track 1: Oh yeah.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
mean, you don't the step ins and
the big a hundred something dollars
Gallagher geared reels to start either.
So yeah, there's a, can get by
real cheaply to start if you're
trying to operate on a budget.
That's, yeah.
One of my favorite parts
about this business.
Track 1: Yes.
I, I completely agree.
And lastly, Jared,
can others find out more about you?
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
Yeah, so if,
you want, you can listen to my
podcast, the Herd Quitter podcast.
Um, you can find that wherever
folks listen to podcasts.
Um, then if they wanna follow
me specifically, well, there's
social media for the Herd Quitter
podcast on Facebook and Instagram.
It's Herd Quitter podcast.
Otherwise.
Jared Luman on Twitter now XI
guess, or, or Jared Luman on,
on Instagram and, uh, Facebook.
Track 1: Very good.
Jared, appreciate you coming
on and sharing about your
journey and what you're doing.
Really appreciate it,
and I enjoy your podcast.
jared-luhman_1_02-13-2024_173330:
thanks Cal.
I appreciate it.
Thanks so much for, for the opportunity.
I enjoyed it.