Mental health: a female pastor's perspective with Faye Stothers Khan

Continuing our conversation around the mental health of pastors, we speak to an experienced female pastor about her perspective on a pastor's mental health, some of the extra burdens female pastors carry and overcoming expectations and challenges.

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Record Live is a conversation about life, spirituality and following Jesus in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

 Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Record Live. And we're excited to be here because we have an awesome conversation lined up.

Jarrod, welcome. It looks like you're in a new space, a very... Well organized library is behind you.

It is Zenita. I'm at home today, working from home. And I did spend a bit of time putting my books in author order, alphabetical order. I don't know why but it was just. Something that I felt needed to be done

awesome. Yeah, we are continuing with our mini series on pastors and mental health. Last week we had Dr. Brendan Pratt, and this week we have the one and only Faye Stothers. Faye is the associate pastor at Lilydale in Melbourne and she was actually the first,, female pastor at a Sydney conference, which is really cool.

So welcome Faye. It's good to have you on.

Hi, Zanita. Hi, Jared. How are you this morning? We are good.

Yep. That's good to hear. Um, Faye, just to kick us off, we'd love to hear a little bit about your journey, how you got into pastoring and what you're doing now.

, okay. So when I was a little girl, I went to see a graduation and I told my mother that I wanted to graduate with those dudes over there and they were the theology students. And she goes, Oh, that's not possible back then. And so it was kind of sat dormant for a long time.

And so I did nursing and then I became a business woman and a music teacher and an examiner and all those things. And then, uh, it kept at me. And finally, I went to college in my thirties and, did theology and ministry. And then was. Quite a nerve wracking four years, actually. Back then they didn't have a grad dip program, so I went straight in.

And then, um, when I graduated we were all holding our breath. There was two of us, there was a first grad dip came through, I think, after I'd started. And so there were two girls we picked up and we were all chewing our nails. And, um, yeah, I got picked up by Greater Sydney Conference, Fox Valley. Came to the party and interviewed.

Yep, we'll take her. And so I was called to stay there close to Fox Valley and did my internship under Gough Bean Bridge, that fabulous South African. And so part of the building of Fox Valley Church happened while I was there and so I got part of the So the color schemes and all those kinds of things, I, got my teeth into and it was a great, uh, I think the philosophy was to do everything we do, whether we're playing volleyball or whatever we're doing, eating, that's all in the space that God created.

So it was a great, great project and I was part of that. And then, oh, sorry, after that, I had had a couple of years off because I had, my mother was, um, dying of cancer, came back to Victoria because I still had all my family down here. and then eventually went into chaplaincy at Heritage College and was there for 10 years and then over to, um, Taylor's Hill with Gilson for a little bit and then Lilydale.

So I've been down here about 16 years, I think now,

. Now, as Zanita mentioned, Faye, we spoke to Brandon Pratt last week, and he told us a little bit about, some of the things that the union and the church is putting in place to help with the mental health of pastors, because we, we understand that there's quite a, um, Not necessarily worse or different to what everyone else is carrying in terms of some of those, burdens, some of those issues, but there are some different expectations placed on pastors that we talked about last week and, some different burdens that they carry.

Can you give us just, from your perspective, what you've seen working in ministry, in terms of some of the mental health impacts that that can have on people? Sure.

Well, I think that because our spirituality is so close to heart, we're so passionate about our faith. Often pastors are expected to kind of be somewhere in the perfection range.

And if we do have any failures whatsoever, people feel like they've been failed and I mean, it's really easy for a congregation to fall in love with their leader rather than with Jesus Christ. And we have to be really careful that we aren't the focus of their faith. It has to be Jesus and any other person, any human on the planet, whether it's pastor or elder or whatever, is at some point going to be a failure.

Um, and pastors have to be super careful not to become that focal point. We shouldn't run a church based on our personality or, , anything else. I mean, when I started pastoring and I planted a church, I said, don't follow me. I'm stupid. Follow Jesus. And so they made me a car sticker.

So I had a big stick across the back of my RAV4 that said, don't follow me. I'm stupid. , it was so real because we can fall into that trap and that's for mental health. That's just terrible to have that kind of weight on you. Because none of us can be 24 7 perfect. We all have bad days. We all get sick sometimes.

And it might even be the way we look at someone. You know, we might have huge indigestion or be constipated and someone will think we don't love them in the congregation. And it's not true. But, you know, we shouldn't be the focal point of their faith or the strength of their faith. That's the problem. So it's huge.

I'm wondering, with all those expectations of you having to be perfect or people looking up to you, how have you, responded to that or dealt with that, aside from shoving a sticker on the back? Are there certain things that you've done throughout ministry that have helped you in your own mental state?

I ... I think the thing for me is people go, Hey, cause I, when I was planting a church, I was full time chaplain and I was doing 80 hours a week. And know, I know. Because of going through college, Josh was in prep when I started college. , so I had two little kids , and I was up there by myself.

And I know that to take a full load, I did an overload of six subjects a semester because I wanted to have counselling under my belt as well in case I didn't get picked up. So to do an overload like that and to carry out that and do all your expectations and earn a little bit of money to get you through college as well.

was just by the Holy Spirit. So my big thing is I cannot do any of this without the power of the Holy Spirit, without a really live spiritual life. So I guess I've always been. vulnerable to people and say I'm nothing without him. I'm not even, I don't even like public speaking, which is the stupidest thing for a pastor.

I can't eat before I preach still after all these years. And I know everything I do is by the power of the Holy Spirit. So I've made that very real to my congregation. And I, I kind of show my vulnerabilities because there's many of them. And I think that helps them understand that I can't be anything without him,.

In my life. And then I, I think they realise a little bit more that there's no praise in here for Faye Stothers. It's, it's all about what, what the Holy Spirit does through me.

Yeah. That's a good point. I think because a lot of pastors have that expectation that they're supposed to be perfect, they don't then open up or they're not vulnerable, like you're saying about

what's going on.

And self talk is really important. I, because, you know, we always, I have this great big diary, and I write everything down. I have an electronic one too, but I'm kind of the therapeutic, cross things off is good for me as well. So I have this big diary and I put lots of expectations on my day, but my self talk is I only have enough time in my day to do what God wants me to do.

And when I put my head down on the pillar at night, I might have things going around there, but... I forgive myself what I haven't done because he will bring up what I need to do and that's it. And I've learned to forgive myself because otherwise you can for forever be punishing yourself for what you don't get done.

Because when you deal with people, we don't get instant results all the time. And it can be very unforgiving sometimes. So, you've just got to, you've got to be more in tune with what the Holy Spirit wants of you than what anyone else does.

Faye, I really like what you said about forgiving yourself, because, unforgiveness of yourself is sometimes we look at other people to forgive and we're told to as Christians, but when we can't forgive ourselves, sometimes that's the...

The biggest mental hang up that can lead to a host of issues, because, , sometimes we're most critical on ourselves. We give other people a pass or we understand what they're going through and we can be very, critical. So that's a really important. I just want to pause on that we need to be wrestling with that question as Christians.

I think, , forgive others as you would have been forgiven. , that's the call that we have.

You're absolutely right, Jared. And, and I think, look, it's been a learning. thing for me. It wasn't always easy coming out, of college with great expectations of being a woman. I felt I had to work double as hard to get the recognition because of the voices in my head saying, what are you doing here?

Girls not supposed to be ministers. And I heard that so often. It wasn't funny. I felt like I had to work doubly hard to prove myself. and to be twice as good as all the guys to get recognition. And so this has been a learning curve for me that my call didn't come from there. My call came from God. And then, I had to be in a space with him that I didn't judge myself too harshly because the church was going to be Judging enough and it is you know you guys writing the record you would through your articles and some of the stuff You've put out there.

But because we're so passionate about spirituality we cop a lot of flack I like to wear makeup and I like to have crazy hair and, , people will, will push back at you and say you're supposed to be something that you're not.

I don't look anything like Ellen White. You know, and I, I, I, and you cop that, you know, I like to look a certain way and I can talk to people that other people can't because of the who I am, the favor that God put on my life. I have doors open that no one else does. People will judge you. We live in a church that suffers with their own journey on a regular basis.

They constantly judge themselves. You know, we struggle with grace. And so we'll say, yes, we live in grace, but we'll beat up on our pastors will beat up on the leader of the church because, they haven't shown me exactly what I want to see in a leader. And I think we have to just let ourselves.

Just sit in the presence of God, be wrapped in the Father's arms and forgive ourselves for the shortcomings, because gosh, they are so, so many. No matter what career we're in, whether a teacher or a pastor, as you guys are in the media, whatever we do, we have to forgive ourselves because we can't be perfect and no one can.

And I think we've all got to learn to forgive. Each other and learn to forgive our leaders because gosh, it's so hard to be on a pedestal. They rock, they wobble, and we fall off regularly.

Yeah, have grace on yourself and have grace on others, I think. Uh, you mentioned, you mentioned that you felt called to ministry or compelled to ministry as like a young girl, quite a young age, and then you went down various different avenues and then when you Studied theology.

You also studied counseling 'cause you weren't sure if you were gonna get in. What was it like to feel like called to something like ministry but yet have had , so much , resistance from other people? Like how was that and how did you push through those kind of barriers?

Um, it was interesting 'cause I, I spent a lot of time in prayer.

'cause when you give up, I had a really successful business. And , I bought myself a red Mercedes from my business. I was quite, it was doing quite well. Norm Young, as one of my lecturers said, the rotten students have got better cars than we have. It was a big joke around campus. But I was doing quite well out there.

So, it was, a big decision. to stop all of that and to go to college. And so I spent a lot, a lot of time in prayer before I went to change my whole life, to take my children away, to move because you couldn't study, , by distance back then. So I had to actually physically go to, to college. I had to leave my husband and family and do that.

So it was a big decision, lots of time of prayer. Um, I think the first. The first time I showed up and you know, what are you doing here, girls aren't called, but the call was so, so strong and I have to say this too, if any guys are listening that have thought to themselves women aren't called to this, when you, I've never been a guy so I can't tell you what their calls like, but my call was so strong, I could not put it down, it just kept at me and at me and at me, that um, I You know, my dreams were standing before people, you know, I'd been an entertainer and, you know, I'd spent a little bit of time outside of the church and been an entertainer.

I knew what it was like to be out in front of people. But to speak in front of people is just horrifying to me. But my dreams had me in front of people speaking. And, um, God just kept at me, and at me, and at me until I finally conceded. And then, look, the journey was really tough. We sat in the, um, God, that's, I did my thing, the egg, the stand.

And we were sitting around the big table there, and I go, So what's it been like? And for the first time in four years, I burst into tears and just said, It's been so hard because you just don't know if all of this is going to be worth it. If you're going to be allowed by man, I knew God would always open up to ministry, but I didn't know if the church was ready for me, you know?

So, and I said it was really, really hard. It was really tough. And,, then you kind of wait, it's always nerve wracking for everybody to wait to be called. And look, I think God's been great in giving me a. skin because I've heard, what are you doing here? Didn't you read Paul and you're not supposed to be here and all that kind of stuff so many times.

But God has been so faithful to me and we've had, I've had miracles happen in my life so many times to prove that this is where I'm supposed to be, that I can't deny it. It's one of those But once again, can't rely on man, got to rely on what God says. So, and he's never said you're not good enough, which is amazing because I don't feel good enough.

We know, we know that verse Faye that says, um, the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. It's crazy to me that we would sort of limit people that want to work and are called to work. And Brendan shared with us last week that I think he said, there's a huge sort of Loss in terms of pastors starting and not completing or not, not, um, pastoring for more than a few years.

We're losing pastors left, right and center. And that's part of the burden and the crushing weight of expectations that people place on them. Um, you've reflected a little bit on the extra burdens that Perhaps a female minister , might bear not just the carrying the load of a pastor, but also some of the resistance and hostility, there, do you think that, , to flip that a little bit and to look at some of the positive side, what can a female Pastor, bring that helps in this mental health space.

, not to stereotype necessarily, but is there, in your experience where you've seen like women are called to specifically bring something that us guys can't bring to the ministry?

Absolutely Jared. Well, starting in Sydney conference and it didn't take long for the guys to figure out that I could, I could deal with a rape case that they couldn't.

I could go through all the whole process with the lady and be with her touch and hold her , after she'd been violated. So I could do things like that. I can hold children. Um, where a man would be suspiciously looked at if he did the same things that I did so I can embrace and hold and, , and gather.

I think our eye is different as far as what we see in things, in situations as well. I noticed when I was studying my essays were marked totally differently because I had a different view of some things than what the guys did. We spot injustice and we spot compassionate nature. Look, God has gifted both genders with incredible,, perspectives.

But I think women have different ones that pick up on some of the more sensitive issues of injustice and hurting people's feelings. So I think sometimes we can come alongside and understand. , you know, men are strong. Women know what it's like to feel overpowered. We know what it's like to feel a bit frightened, to not be able to defend yourself in so many ways .

So I think we can come alongside and, and bring some of those to the fore. We understand from being mothers. , some of the perspectives of the emotional side of that of, , what it's like to lose a child, what it's like to nurture a child or carry, have stillbirth. There's things that we can, we can bring to ministry that guys perhaps can't , and shouldn't in some ways.

I think there's things that we should minister that you shouldn't minister to and vice versa. There's things that you should minister to that we shouldn't as well. But, um, I think God made us. in a way that the two halves of the genders somehow make the beautiful whole with, with his beautiful qualities.

And if we take half away, we've lost half of our capacity to minister holistically to our congregations. And I think if we can get past the biases that it looks like Paul is speaking to a situation rather than women everywhere for all time. And get past that and realize that God has created men and women.

Um, his beautiful qualities to minister to our people and get over that will somehow get a much better ministry coverage.

We were talking last week to Brendan about how, often... The congregation expects the pastor to be everything, and to have every spiritual gift, and to be strong, and nurturing, and compassionate, and confrontational, and all of these things, which is kind of what you're saying.

, but, yeah, it is interesting, like, some males will have strengths in some areas, females will have strengths in others, and often we don't have a male and a female pastor. in our church. You often only have one pastor, and so you kind of get one side or the other a bit more. , what have you done when you've found certain things are outside your natural ability or your capability?

Have you had other males supporting you in your role? Or have you had like a partner supporting you? Or what's your journey been like there?

Um, , when I planted a church it was kind of, And I felt the Holy Spirit really helped in areas to strengthen areas that I didn't have a natural thing toward.

But look, I think, after looking at good leadership models, you need to try and not, um, build leadership with people like you because that's the worst thing you can do. So you need to have elders around you that fill the gaps in your own ministry. And , I love the idea of spiritual gift based ministries.

We love nominated committees, but I think that's square pegs in round holes kind of stuff. I think we really need to look at people's giftedness and encourage and train and build people up. Discipleship, we're weak in that area as a church, build people up. If they've got a natural tendency to certain areas of ministry, you really uphold that.

In the form of our elders and other leaders in the church, not be afraid of not having people that are all like us around us. Have different people that challenge you, sometimes even annoy you, because iron sharpens iron. And I think pastors need better leadership skills in lots of ways that to be okay with saying, you know what, I'm rubbish at pastoral visitation, I'm going to try and equip or send some elders off to learn how to do that really, really well.

And let the church, rather than the pastor having to do it, be okay with having a priesthood of believers where the pastor is responsible for ensuring people are trained and lifted up and equipped rather than having to do everything themselves. I think we've just got to sit back and let's get educated about this.

The church isn't run entirely by the pastor. We're there as the coach. We're there as a coach to try and encourage a whole church to get on board. People who are sitting there expecting someone else to do all the ministry are doing two horrible things. They're not holistically looking at what being saved is about because as soon as you're saved, you're equipped, the Holy Spirit comes inside.

to, fill you and change you and give you the fruits of the Spirit. And then right alongside that you're given the gifts of the Spirit to serve. If you're not serving in your church and you're sitting there being, entertained, you're not fulfilling, the Great Commission or the call upon your life.

And you really... You're cheating your church and so let your pastor be a coach rather than everything to you. Find out what you're supposed to do. Get off that beautiful little bottom of yours and do something, is what I say. And then you won't have the big holes in ministry that you, that a lot of churches constantly do have.

I love it. Very practical. If you could do one thing, Faye, to, support, or to change the system so that the mental health of pastors was helped, assisted, prioritized. Maybe it's something that we're doing already, but it's not fully, realized yet. Maybe it's a new sort of thing. What, what would that one focus be for you?

How do you think from a pastor's perspective yourself, we can be doing a better job of supporting the mental health of our pastors?

Well, stop judging and press start. That's a really good thing that the congregations can do. But as far as leadership goes, look, and I, I look like I've got it all together.

Look, this has been a huge journey. I've been, I've been bullied and ended up being on antidepressant drugs and all kinds of stuff. , as part of the journey, whereas somebody didn't think a woman should be a minister and bullied me out of a role that I loved and was passionate about. So I haven't always had it together.

So let me say that and be really frank about that is that I'm sitting here after being through a lot of stuff. But some of the things we can do as pastors for each other as well. is to be more supportive of one another and more forgiving. Like, I think it's become very competitive. The churches have competitive.

Churches aren't supposed to be competitive with one another. And pastors, in doing that, , the sheep stealing kind of thing. We get really competitive and it's more about who's the better preacher.

I'm going to go and listen to that. Who's the better pastor or carer? Um, if we could sit together as pastors and, and share really open heartedly. Presently, one of the healthiest things that we have at Lilydale is, , my senior pastor is Darren Croft. And our intern is Rahel Gangadu, and we embrace the chaplains at Edinburgh College to come down and spend time with us.

But we're really blunt, and we pray together desperately every week, and we don't judge each other, we applaud each other's sermons, we share resources with each other. I think that's what has made me so healthy now, is because I've had... a bunch of pastors that team together and really listen to each other and we really like each other and we defend each other.

There is no way I would let any congregation member speak badly about Darren. You know, I got his back and he got mine and we have full confidence in each other. We've chosen this. We've chosen the journey of, really looking out and being accountable to each other.

We tell each other. I don't go and do anything behind his back ever, ever. And he doesn't care, but he trusts me implicitly because of that. So if we can create those kinds of healthy relationships between pastors, that would be great. But it takes, you have to be intentional. And I think pastors, probably one of the kinds of things you can do for yourself is to get, not quite a mentor, But a person that comes alongside you that you share everything with, almost.

Yeah, that takes, that you, you're not ashamed to, to say what's going on in your marriage so that they can pray for that. And it's a safe space to do all of that because, we're almost encouraged to disregard our family relationships to be at the church 24 7. That's what we see as success. And that has to stop.

I'm really glad, like I watch my son, who I'm extremely proud of, say no and guard his family time. Because that makes me proud. That's something I was too scared to do. You know, I felt like I had to prove myself. So we've got to stop all those expectations and pastors get together together and really become each other's champions, I suppose, cheer each other on.

You know, I know pastors that won't listen to anyone else preach. Isn't that so sad? . I'm all for doing this as a team and not having, , putting people on pedestals.

Awesome. So what I'm hearing is have a safe space where you can talk about things, cheer each other on instead of competing, and also have boundaries like with your family and what's important to you.

Yeah, like I think every pastor should have an accountability partner.

I think every Christian should. Yeah. Every Christian should have a same gender accountability partner that they will talk about. You know, if you're doing something that's a little bit weird, that person will say, Why are you doing that? What's going on with you that you've got to do that? You know, have you talked to do that?

It pulls you up. Someone that you know loves you, that you let speak into your life. And look, if I haven't, if I hadn't had that all these years, I probably would have been a psychiatric ward by now, to be honest, because my reactions and the things that I respond to have been questioned. Are you doing that out of, um, are you angry at God, or are you just angry at that person?

And they've had the courage to sort of say to me,

you know that they're trying to do it for my best good, ,not to hurt me.

Faye, I've loved hearing some of your stories this morning. I really appreciate you jumping on. I know we had some issues getting here, but we're here now, and it's been a really great conversation. Unfortunately, our time is up.

Um, you know, we've covered some really important topics today. Is there anything you'd like to add before we, before we finish?

No, you guys are doing a great job there, and I think, the mental health of everybody, particularly after COVID, has been really. Really an issue of how we change things up, but I guess I want to speak to congregations more than anything else you are a priesthood of believers every single one of us is called to the same calling that if we want to get out of here and Go into the next phase of life outside of where we live right now Into you know, the glory that is intended for us for the future get off that sweet little bottom And do something and don't sit back just expecting everything to be delivered to your lap.

That's not the way things are. And you're missing out on seeing the Holy Spirit moving your life and through your life. And you're giving yourself a great injustice by not being activated into the ministry of the church and the gospel. So get into it and let the Holy Spirit just reveal Himself and show how powerful and amazing He really is.

If you let him work through you.

Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Faye. It has been great to have you on today. All the best as you continue doing what you're doing.

We have another episode next week, continuing on this mini series of Pastors and Mental Health. , we have two more guests for this series, so, yeah, jump on next week. we'll see you there. Thank you, Jared. Thank you, Faye. And see you

soon, everyone. See you all.