Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
In this episode of The Shrink Down, we dive into the documentary Boys to Men: Why America's Sons Are Struggling and unpack the challenges boys and young men face in today’s world. From falling behind in school to navigating emotional expectations and social media influences, we explore how educational systems and societal norms often fail to meet boys’ developmental needs. We discuss the role of positive male role models, and the evolving definitions of masculinity and caregiving. We also highlight the importance of vulnerability, emotional intelligence, and open communication in helping young men thrive—both at home and in relationships.
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:00.719)
Welcome back to The Shrinkdown. Ladies, how was your weekend?
Lauren (00:05.774)
How about yours? Yeah, all fun. We did that. Oh, you participated. You just didn't treat. What did you do? Oh, fun. Fun. Yeah.
Teri (00:06.168)
Good, I got it, yeah.
Vanessa (00:06.653)
Good. Halloweeny, we did did Trunk or Treats. We got second place. Yes, we participated. It was our first year. We did the Addams Family. It was our first year. I'll post pics later so you guys can see, but yes.
Wilhelmina (00:07.307)
busy.
Wilhelmina (00:12.823)
and
Wilhelmina (00:19.979)
Which dress did you go with in the end? Vanessa had sent me a couple of pictures of her dresses. She's like, which dress? Okay.
Vanessa (00:24.689)
yeah, the one with the long train and it was full of leaves, but I was just standing there so I was like, it's fine. But yeah, I'll have to pin it up for Halloween if I wear it to go trick or treating, but it was fun. was our first time doing that and we got second place. I was like, yay.
Lauren (00:34.168)
That's super fun.
The boys went to our school trunk or treat last week and the big hit was a car that made like a Dunkin Donuts window and then they were giving out Dunkin Donuts. I know, I know. I'm like give kids that kind of food. Yeah.
Teri (00:37.918)
it's cool.
Vanessa (00:46.131)
so we got beat out by Chick-fil-A and they were giving out Chick-fil-A.
Wilhelmina (00:47.18)
that's miracle.
Vanessa (00:55.281)
yeah, yeah. I really was like, next year we're doing Starbucks and we're going to give out Starbucks. Okay. I know. I know. was like, my goodness. All right, ladies. So let's get into our conversation for today. Our topic, I should say. Wilhelmina sent us this CBS reports documentary titled, Boys to Men, Why America's Sons Are Struggling.
Wilhelmina (00:56.119)
you
Wilhelmina (01:01.653)
You're like, are we though?
Lauren (01:01.806)
What's our budget? Right, what is our budget? Hmm. Yeah, that's fun though. That's super fun.
Vanessa (01:24.657)
This was fascinating, fascinating to watch. It explores why so many boys and young men are falling behind academically, socially, and emotionally. So we're going to get into all of that. But before we do, let's do our four-minute faves. Anyone want to start today? OK.
Wilhelmina (01:40.65)
star. So after Maddie and I finished our summer I turned pretty, we were looking for something else to watch. And the show We Were Liars came across the screen. also on Prime. It had been it was released in the summer. So I had seen it come out but didn't really flag any. I didn't know anything really much about it didn't flag any interest to me. But
As we were looking for something, I was like, sure, why not? So we went in completely blind. It is based on a book by E. Lockhart. And I think it is technically considered like a young adult genre. And there are, I believe, I know there's at least another book in a series. I don't know how many. So this is the first book. And it is basically a mystery. So it's this very rich, wealthy family.
a grandfather and grandma, and then their three daughters who are adults and mothers, and then their kids. So it's about their kids, like the mother's kids. And there's a mystery that happened one summer, and it goes back and forth between the summer that this thing happened and the summer after it happened. And you're trying to figure out what it is because the girl has amnesia and can't remember.
So with the help of her cousins, are like, she's trying to remember what led to this mysterious accident. Lots of drama, lots of toxic family dynamics because the family is very, very wealthy. They live on this island or like have this, they summer on this island. And it blew us away. And really that's all I'm gonna say because I kind of think everyone who hasn't already seen it should just go in blind like we did.
But really, honestly, by the end, just like totally blew us away. So good. And don't look anything up about it. Just go in. Just if that sounds intriguing to you, then just go for it. So, yeah, that was definitely a highlight. When we finished that, we just were like, my God, that was unexpectedly amazing. And they will have a season two. now. Yep. At first, I was sort of like, well.
Lauren (03:57.966)
Mm
Lauren (04:01.944)
I was just going to say, is it one and done or? Okay.
Vanessa (04:02.577)
Okay, nice and easy.
Wilhelmina (04:06.807)
But we solved the mystery once. there's like, guess, they find a way. There's a couple of things that, you when you get to the end and then they're going to go back to the mothers because there's a mystery that happened when the mothers. Yeah. So. Prime Amazon Prime. Yeah, very, very good.
Lauren (04:09.006)
They always find a way. Yeah.
Vanessa (04:11.603)
Yes.
Vanessa (04:18.975)
gotcha. So is it Netflix? Did you say it was Netflix? Prime, okay.
Lauren (04:19.63)
So like a prequel kind of situation. Cool.
prime. Very cool. Very good.
Wilhelmina (04:29.911)
Lauren, what about you?
Lauren (04:31.682)
Well, in what will now seem like an advertisement for Prime Video, I'm recommending, but totally different, the new John Candy documentary on Prime. And it's called I Like Me, which is a line from Planes, Trains and Automobiles, which is a family favorite movie of ours that we grew up watching with my parents and we watch everything skimming whether we're all together or we watch it separately in our homes at this point.
Vanessa (04:36.101)
I'm
Wilhelmina (04:43.255)
Vanessa (04:43.708)
Yeah.
Lauren (04:58.766)
So that line, I like me, is the title of the documentary and it's excellent. So hearkening back to Terry's favorite a couple weeks back, which was the Charlie Sheen doc, which I then watched, which is excellent. It got me kind of nostalgic for like that time period. And this came out right after I watched the Charlie Sheen doc. So I mean, different. It's on Prime Video, not Netflix, but sort of that same era of actors.
Teri (05:12.471)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (05:26.642)
And it's excellent. If you're a John Candy fan, it's excellent. If you liked any of his movies growing up, Uncle Buck and Plain Streams and Automobiles were our favorites. It's just it's really well done. His kids and wife are in it, which I kind of like that aspect. So there's actually there's a lot of family members in it as well as, you know, gosh, who opens it up? Bill Murray opens it, which I mean, just like some of those and Dan Aykroyd and like all of those kinds of those players. So.
Wilhelmina (05:29.311)
Uh-huh. I am.
Teri (05:30.391)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (05:56.302)
Highly recommend. It's really, it's like a really, yeah, it's really well done. I think I know his kids and then Ryan Reynolds, which is random. He is so and and there's one other guy too, but they showed up to the premiere. They showed up to the premiere in the car from Plains Trainings and Automobiles. They did like a mock up of the like destroyed car.
Wilhelmina (05:57.752)
That's great.
Wilhelmina (06:05.195)
Ryan Reynolds is the, I think he's the one that, I think he's a producer. I think he, or creator, he's the one that like kind of like got it done.
Teri (06:09.312)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah.
Teri (06:15.714)
I'll look past that.
Vanessa (06:17.811)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (06:22.253)
my God, that's hysterical.
Lauren (06:25.61)
So if you know the movie. So it, I mean, it's just, it's really well done. Like a good, feel good, although obviously sad, but feel good. Like look back at that time period and, and so yeah, highly recommend. Yeah. we watch it every year. Yeah. It's so good.
Wilhelmina (06:38.817)
that I haven't seen that movie in a few years. And that scene in the car, like Eric and I would do this like whole bit and we would just like, we would be in hysterics. Like, you, do you actually think this car is safer driving? Well, yes, sir. As it's like a shell of a car. Like it's so good. How do you, yes, I'm
Lauren (06:50.914)
Yeah. Yes, yes, I do. Yes, officer, I do. Yes. It's really good. Anyway, so yeah, highly recommend totally different from a genre of what Wilhelmina is recommending, but both on Prime Video. So and for the it's like perfect timing. Watch it in November and then follow it up by planes, trains and automobiles. So, Terry, what about you?
Vanessa (06:56.773)
Okay.
Teri (06:59.8)
Hmm.
Wilhelmina (07:12.341)
Yeah. Thanksgiving. Yeah.
Teri (07:18.516)
Mine is a band, the band Spoon. Have you guys heard of Spoon?
Lauren (07:21.314)
Wilhelmina (07:23.415)
Oh, no. I know. It feels like real old with the music.
Vanessa (07:23.921)
No.
Lauren (07:23.97)
No, but you're much cooler when it comes to music than I am. I know.
Vanessa (07:27.827)
Thank
Teri (07:29.464)
So, well, if you heard some of their songs, I think you would know them. They've been around since 1993. They're a rock band out of Austin, Texas. I'd have to look up how many albums they have, probably like 15 or 20. I mean, they played Riot Fest in Chicago last summer. They do tour still sort of on and off. I didn't realize they go back. I knew they went back to the 90s. I didn't realize they went back to 1993. I looked it up before I logged on. And they have over the last...
Lauren (07:36.118)
Okay. Spoon.
Lauren (07:45.72)
Okay.
Teri (07:57.932)
maybe 10 years or so become one of my top go-to bands if I'm cleaning the house or running errands or I just feel like listening to some type of rock music. They're my go-to. And the reason I thought of them is they have a new album coming out, but they don't have a date yet that it's actually going to be released. But they did release two singles. And if you live in the Chicago area, one of them is being played on XRT and 93.1 pretty often.
Lauren (08:03.79)
Mmm.
Teri (08:24.574)
And that single is called something like I think I'm falling in love, falling in love again, something like that. And it's pretty good. But in general, just a really good solid rock band spoon, just like a spoon you eat cereal yogurt with. And I think if you just played them on whatever service you use or just around the house, you would hear some songs that you would probably recognize.
Lauren (08:37.705)
Yeah, okay.
Vanessa (08:38.429)
soon.
Wilhelmina (08:48.043)
Yeah, Chateau Blues and Guess I'm Falling in Love are the new singles. I just pulled it up.
Teri (08:52.256)
There we go. Yeah. So I recommend Spoon, the band. How about you, Vanessa?
Lauren (08:54.638)
fun
Vanessa (08:59.517)
So I was trying to think of what to share. I went back to the other day when I shared makeup, was like, that's something that I've bought multiple times. So I was trying to think of what's something that I have purchased numerous times. And so I thought of these leggings that I really love that I get on Amazon. The first time I heard of them, there was an influencer who was describing them as Lululemon dupes. And so the brand is called Hey Nuts, which I know it sounds.
Very strange. I know. But they're called Hey Nuts. They're like, they're currently they're $32 for a pair. They come in three different lengths, which I love. So the short, they're like regular and then tall. So everyone has a has a length. It's called Hey Nuts. But I love them. And you know, I still very much love leggings. And I don't know, I think that's gonna be one of those things that even when they're like no longer in style, that I'm still gonna wear them.
Lauren (09:27.95)
strange.
Teri (09:30.548)
Mm-hmm. We'll remember that.
Lauren (09:42.19)
Hey, nuts.
Teri (09:57.133)
Hmm?
Vanessa (09:57.65)
Like, it's just one of those things that I am going to refuse to give up is leggings. But I love them. They wash really well. They do actually remind me very much of Lululemon leggings. And they have different, like I said, different lengths, but they also have different styles. You can get like Capri one, Yes. There's, yeah, I mean, I do too. They're really good. Yeah, they have the high rise.
Lauren (10:02.37)
there.
Teri (10:14.124)
I have about six pairs of these. I thought that was the name of them. I just looked in my Amazon that,
Lauren (10:14.158)
Yeah.
I was just going to say, I think I might have.
Ok, nice!
Vanessa (10:25.733)
They they they're really good. They're really good dupe. I will say that they come in different materials. So if you like the just like thicker material for like not really working out, but just like for lounging, those are my favorite. But they also have the more like athletic material to like if you're looking for something to work out in. But I like the thicker ones for just wearing with like sweaters when it's cold. But yeah, I think I bought them about five or six times. I have them in multiple colors. They're really good. And interestingly, the tag on it looks just like
Lauren (10:29.101)
Okay.
Lauren (10:35.199)
Yeah. Okay.
Lauren (10:42.124)
Okay.
Yeah.
Vanessa (10:55.661)
Lulu Lemon tag. Yeah, I mean, literally, that little. Yes. So that's my share for today's Hey Nuts leggings. Thirty two dollars Amazon. More prime. Yes. yeah. Yes. Yes, absolutely. So if you're if you're in the market for some leggings, highly recommend. Obviously, Terry's bought them a bunch, too. So she also.
Lauren (10:55.746)
I was just going to say the back of it looks just like it. Yeah, very cute. Very cute.
Wilhelmina (10:56.627)
Teri (10:58.046)
Mm-hmm
Lauren (11:09.496)
I was going to say they'll probably be on sale too in these upcoming sales that we'll have. They always do that kind of like lightning deal for those kinds of things if they're popular.
Lauren (11:20.748)
I always am.
Ha ha!
Teri (11:25.388)
I second that.
Vanessa (11:25.414)
Enjoy some.
Wilhelmina (11:25.537)
Terry, it reminds me of the thing you sent us this weekend that was like, basically fashion cycles are the minute you say, I feel comfortable. I actually like the way I look in these type of pants, leggings, skinny jeans, whatever. It's about to change. And so you will always be wearing something that you think.
Vanessa (11:35.607)
yeah.
Vanessa (11:39.346)
Yeah
Teri (11:39.682)
with a, it's.
Teri (11:44.204)
No, it's whatever jeans look like shit to you is the jeans you're supposed to be wearing. And then once you get used to what they look like, those are the wrong jeans to be wearing and you need to acclimate to the new jeans, which is truth. Yes.
Wilhelmina (11:47.351)
Cheers!
Lauren (11:48.738)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (11:52.664)
Yes! So makes me think of like the leggings because back in the day it was like the boot cut like and I always like I don't even think I really liked that back then and I'm like no it's back is it back? yes!
Lauren (11:57.934)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (11:58.067)
I know.
Lauren (12:00.418)
Yeah.
Lauren (12:06.102)
It's back. it is all the Peloton instructors are wearing them and I'm like, you look stupid. But then I know I just don't like it because I'm not used to it. Right.
Vanessa (12:07.005)
Yeah.
Vanessa (12:10.289)
Yeah. Yeah. And in seven months, you'll have a pair. We all will. I will say, I just went on a girls trip last weekend. Was it last weekend? Yeah, not this weekend, the weekend before. And I brought mine and I was like, I don't know what everyone's going to be wearing because I didn't know all the girls. And so I was pleasantly surprised when there was multiple things that we did and everyone was like, I'm wearing leggings. And I was like,
Teri (12:11.704)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (12:16.531)
Yeah. Yeah.
Teri (12:16.94)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (12:38.286)
Like this is my kind of crew.
Wilhelmina (12:38.753)
...till.
Teri (12:39.532)
Yes, they're still here. I was on a girls trip this past weekend and several of the ladies wore leggings. So leggings are here to stay.
Vanessa (12:40.691)
Still going strong.
Yes. Yeah. And I don't know. Maybe it's just our age range. Yes. And that's okay. I'm okay with that. That's what I said. This is just one of those things that I'm gonna keep doing it. If it shows my age, that's fine. And I'm gonna wear them with my low socks, because I keep trying to put them on with high socks. And I'm like, I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't. So.
Lauren (12:48.876)
Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say.
Wilhelmina (12:49.813)
At least for us middle-aged women, we're keeping them. We're keeping them. Yeah.
Teri (12:52.653)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (12:57.774)
That's okay. That's all right.
Teri (12:59.0)
So be it.
Lauren (13:02.71)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (13:03.36)
I know, I know.
Lauren, feel like the two of us need to somehow figure out our girls trip because it was like Vanessa went on a girls trip and then Terry went on a girls trip and Lauren and I were like, we need to go on a girls trip. The four of us are, yes.
Lauren (13:13.392)
yeah. We will go on a girls trip just with these ladies. Exactly. No problem there. Yeah.
Vanessa (13:17.115)
Hahaha
Teri (13:20.396)
Yes, yes, yes.
Vanessa (13:20.893)
We're going on a girls trip. Yeah. We are going on one. All right, ladies.
Wilhelmina (13:26.187)
Terry, how was the finger licks?
Teri (13:28.904)
it was lovely. Very fall picturesque. stayed at this resort called the Lake House at Canandaigua. We were basically up in Canada. mean, we were, but we were way up there. flew into Rochester. It was great. We did wineries, hiking, sightseeing, visiting different things, good restaurants. It was a good group. was six of us and everyone. We had a great time. So I would recommend.
Wilhelmina (13:30.453)
Your pictures looked amazing.
Lauren (13:39.682)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (13:49.783)
Nice.
Wilhelmina (13:55.2)
Awesome.
Teri (13:56.412)
Not a place to probably take your kids, but definitely good for a couples trip or a group of gal pals.
Lauren (14:05.048)
Nice.
Vanessa (14:09.139)
All right, so today's topic, the status of boys these days. So this documentary, we all watched it. Everyone watched it, right? my gosh, so many thoughts about this topic. Where do you guys wanna start?
Lauren (14:14.335)
I know.
Wilhelmina (14:15.029)
I know.
Lauren (14:18.498)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (14:18.935)
Yes.
Lauren (14:28.434)
it's like it was much heavier than I thought it was going to be. And as a boy mom, the thing that I mean, there's there there are several layers and I think we could we will go through as many as we can. And then if appropriate, maybe this will be a part two at some point. But the falling behind academically at all stages is where they started a like hit me in the gut right away. It was like, like this is I don't like this data. It talked about since the 1970s, 15
Vanessa (14:29.177)
Yeah.
Lauren (14:57.868)
women are 15 % more likely to get a degree than men. It talked about how K through 12 is not set up for boys. And I thought that was really interesting how they talked. They didn't get totally in, they mentioned how boys' brains develop at a, they didn't even really use the terms. They didn't use neurodevelopmental terms. They just said that boys are behind girls in development, which we all know is true. But how that then has not been adjusted for.
Teri (15:24.258)
Hmm.
Vanessa (15:24.337)
Right.
Lauren (15:27.958)
in the K through 12 setting. Go ahead, Terry. That, I mean, that really struck me.
Teri (15:32.108)
Well, and the reason I wanted to jump in is you may have heard me say this or not. I had a older psychologist who has since retired because when I worked with him, he was in his seventies at Rush. His name is Dr. John Meade. And I remember going out to a happy hour after Danny, my oldest, was born. And he said, very flippant and casually, school is not meant for little boys. So just keep that in mind when you, as your son's getting older.
Lauren (15:35.277)
Yeah.
Lauren (15:43.394)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (15:55.192)
Yeah. And they, they mentioned that in this documentary.
Wilhelmina (15:57.366)
You've, and you've said that, you've said that repeatedly.
Teri (15:59.03)
And I have said that to you guys, that statement really struck with me. I have shared that with families and I've done evaluations. The school set up of sitting still in a chair with 15 minutes of recess, maybe once a day, is not designed well for the developing boy brain. And there is a large body of research that actually shows that boys are more fragile pre-age five, emotionally than girls are. And because their brains develop
Lauren (16:01.59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Teri (16:27.732)
at a slower rate and differently than girls do, they are more vulnerable to social stress and to academic pressure. So boys in general are more fragile than girls are when they're at the same age, when they're younger.
Lauren (16:29.57)
Yeah.
Vanessa (16:33.607)
Yeah. I mean, I think if you.
Lauren (16:33.976)
Yeah.
Vanessa (16:41.085)
I mean, I think if you just look at our practices, so just for people who are listening, just as a reminder, so Lauren, Terry and I, primarily do evaluations testing. I mean, if you think of, I know if I think of my practice, I see more boys than girls. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, definitely more boys coming in and for a variety of things, attention, learning, you know, all the things. And so it is, we see it, we see it in our practices that more boys are showing up because they're having struggles in school.
Lauren (16:44.044)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (16:53.326)
I probably see 80 % voice. I bet.
Teri (16:55.074)
Same, same.
Lauren (16:59.37)
Mm Yeah.
Lauren (17:09.528)
But know, it's interesting, you're right, Vanessa, and I talked to families about how that prefrontal cortex, right, so the very front of the brain is the thing that develops last for everybody, right? It's continuing in development as we're in our teens and then for boys and there are men in their early to mid 20s. And it's like, we know that we say that as psychologists, but then to hear how it's impacting them in in sort of a different format.
It was the way that it was presented. was like, my gosh, like this is just like, this is really kind of upsetting as a clinician, but also as a boy mom that we're, you know, we're not doing the right things to support these kids. And some kids can handle it, which is why we don't see them. They manage, they figure it out. But for the ones that are really vulnerable, they're falling behind and then not going on into.
post-secondary, whether it's education or skills or trades or things like that.
Vanessa (18:08.467)
Well, they brought up another point that I think differentiates, again, boys and girls. Boys are not necessarily taught consistently, like we look at as a group, to say that they're struggling or that there's something wrong. And so that adds to the kind of natural developmental differences. And so you may get more kind of acting out behavior. again, it's not only that the presentation is different, it's that then we're
Lauren (18:21.933)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (18:25.292)
Yes.
Lauren (18:27.854)
They're less likely to ask for help. Yeah.
Vanessa (18:37.917)
kind of society is teaching them not to necessarily ask for help or seek help or talk about what they're experiencing. And so that's like another added layer to what we're saying.
Lauren (18:43.586)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (18:48.971)
Well, and it seems that for girls, there was this shift where it was like the future is female and girls can do everything that boys can do and girls can play sports and girls can get dirty and girls can do the things that boys can do. And it was like a huge push for that, which was awesome for girls. Yes. Yeah. And that's awesome. But then it sort of almost had this swing of like, but then
Lauren (18:57.176)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (19:05.971)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (19:09.122)
Yeah, they said the early 2010s. Yeah.
Teri (19:12.088)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (19:19.083)
what about the boys? And it was about the same time that like toxic masculinity is bad. so, okay, so here's how girls can be and it widened the scope for what girls can be. But for boys, it said, well, but don't be this, but it didn't actually provide another like path. Yeah. It just, yes, it just said, don't do this. And then it kind of said, but you can show your emotions and you can be emotional just like girls and kind of, it didn't.
Lauren (19:30.67)
Hmm?
Vanessa (19:30.995)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (19:38.045)
Like what you should. Right.
Teri (19:38.808)
There's no, there's no path. Yeah.
Lauren (19:39.158)
what to do, right?
Wilhelmina (19:49.534)
didn't provide the same messaging that girls got. so they were like, basically the things that like boys were just left to be like, well, then what's the roadmap to being a boy and a man today? What does it look like? Because it maybe it looks like, I can cry. But then they're not necessarily seeing a lot of examples of men crying. So they're sort of like, but can I cry? Can I show my emotions? I don't know. And so they're just left.
Teri (20:17.016)
We've gotten really good, seems, at identifying what we don't want men and boys to be, like you've said. And none of this is new. when you put out this topic, my first thought was Peter Pan syndrome, which was a term coined in 1983 by a psychologist, Dr. Dan Kiley, and he wrote a book and talked about Peter Pan syndrome, little boys who don't want to grow up. So this was, you
Lauren (20:17.322)
It's confusing.
Wilhelmina (20:18.913)
Yes.
Lauren (20:23.854)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (20:24.033)
Yes, yes.
Lauren (20:27.768)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (20:33.409)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (20:36.472)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (20:46.07)
almost 40 years ago. And then I also thought of the documentary from 2015 called The Mask You Live In, which touches on so much of this that we don't create space for boys to be vulnerable. They don't have great role models. They live in this mask, so to speak, where the only emotions that show up are anger, like the anger iceberg, right? We just see the tip of that. And so none of this is new. And I just kept thinking, okay, we're great at saying, don't be this, don't be, you know, anti-toxic masculinity.
Wilhelmina (21:04.129)
Yes.
Vanessa (21:05.479)
Thank
Lauren (21:12.706)
Yep. Yep.
Wilhelmina (21:13.313)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (21:15.448)
et cetera, but okay, then what are they supposed to do?
Lauren (21:20.012)
And what we know about behavior is we, for human beings in general, but especially for kids, we need to give them the to do, right? Like, so we learned like really early on in terms of shaping defiant behavior, if parents are constantly saying no, the kids generally tend to act out even more because they get confused about what they're allowed to do. And so like switching the language to...
Wilhelmina (21:28.097)
Yes.
Lauren (21:42.498)
you know, no, don't go, don't walk up the slide to, you can go up the stairs and go down the slide. Like you're giving them the map of what they can do. So we know that generally in terms of development, kids do much better if we tell them what they can do. But the, messaging has been pretty much non-existent. We've given them a lot of no's. the one guy that, what was it? Richard Reeves from the, he said there's,
Wilhelmina (22:00.769)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (22:05.077)
Richard Reeves. you're going to call it the same exact thing I am. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yep.
Vanessa (22:06.504)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (22:07.982)
Is it there's a lot of wagging fingers instead of helping hands? And I was like, that's such a good way of describing. He's the founder of the American Institute for Men and Boys. I think I got that right.
Wilhelmina (22:15.243)
good.
Wilhelmina (22:19.233)
Yep, and he wrote a book. Yeah, he wrote a book of men and boys. Yeah.
Vanessa (22:19.793)
Yeah.
Lauren (22:22.464)
of MUNNIN BOYS and he is really making the rounds and has been for probably when I looked online actually to kind of see his online presence in terms of some of these interviews and documentaries, he's been it's been about the past year that he's really been talking about like there's a lot of wagging fingers in the media at Boys and Men and no helping hands. And I thought that's a really nice way to put it.
Teri (22:43.16)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (22:44.467)
Well, I think unfortunately to fill that void of what should you do has now created this concept of the manosphere, which they talk about in this documentary. And I was fascinated by it. Like I've heard, you know, here and there things online, but I have never really like taken a deep dive into like, what is this? And, you know, unfortunately there are people, you know, who are on social media who have decided to create these.
Wilhelmina (22:47.883)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (22:58.081)
Yes.
Vanessa (23:13.107)
kind of pathways that boys should take, young men should take. And unfortunately, they're very negative and toxic. kind of the overarching theme is that, you know, it's women to blame for what's happening to them. And that the only way is to kind of put women down in order to rise, which is scary and sad. You know, I'm a girl mom, I don't have any sons, know, and when I was
Wilhelmina (23:35.531)
Yes.
Vanessa (23:42.366)
kind of when Wilhelmina sent out the video, I kind of could very easily see people who don't have sons, either they just have daughters or they don't have any kids saying like, well, good luck, boy moms, carry on. And after watching it, I really felt like, no, this isn't everyone problem. And on my end, I'm thinking my daughter one day will get married and maybe it's a guy that she's gonna wanna marry, right? And that's scary to me that.
Teri (23:59.596)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (24:11.911)
you know, that boys are being exposed to these very toxic perspectives of what a man should be and what, you know, how to treat a woman. And that's scary to me. So we should all be concerned about what is available online.
Wilhelmina (24:27.585)
Well, had you guys heard of this like red pill theory? I had not heard about it until, yes. So the theory behind it is from the matrix and basically Neo was given two pills and if you take the red pill, then you're really gonna be able to see like the real world. And so the Manosphere basically they call it like the red pill. That is Vanessa, what you just said. Women are the ones that are like holding you back. We are the ones kind of locking you down and
Vanessa (24:31.813)
I had never, no.
Teri (24:31.924)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (24:32.558)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (24:57.559)
And it's not what you think it is. And so here it is, is that we are, I mean, we are the smarter gender. know, I mean, Andrew Tate was on there being interviewed and saying, like, he doesn't think most women should be able to vote. He thinks he's like studies have shown that, you know, men are smarter than women. And it's like these boys latch onto it because they're looking for a map.
They're looking for belonging and without giving our boys a way, Lauren, just like you said, without giving our boys a way to be, they will gravitate potentially to something like this because at least it gives them a guideline and a community.
Lauren (25:45.132)
And you know what I what I wish they would have jumped into a little bit more is that it's all a business for these people, right? So whether they actually believe this stuff or not is unclear. I'm sure some of them do, but I think a lot of them are just preying on the vulnerability of teenage boys, young men.
Wilhelmina (25:50.7)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (25:50.968)
Mm.
Vanessa (25:52.283)
Absolutely.
Teri (25:55.746)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (26:03.182)
gain followers. did, they mentioned like you're like going down this this path on social media and then they say, well, here's what you can do and I've got a supplement that'll help you do that or I've got this workout program, a class and and so it's a business for these people and we're not protecting boys in the same way that we're not protecting young children in general, boys and girls from the business that is
Wilhelmina (26:14.049)
Yes, a class.
Wilhelmina (26:27.659)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (26:31.18)
social media and like what they're attempting to do, whether it's substance use. I mean, we know like what were they doing in the stores? I think this finally got passed that they can't put the, what are they called? The vapes. They were packaging them in pretty colors and they can't put them low to the, they were like at seven year old level height or something like that in the stores and things like that. So we had to get that changed, but there's none of that kind of.
Teri (26:43.912)
Mm. Yeah, colorful. Yeah.
Vanessa (26:44.312)
yeah, at the front counters.
Wilhelmina (26:44.442)
Lauren (26:57.772)
regulation on social media. And so these kids are going down these paths. And they said, you know, they said they reached out to TikTok, but they said teen boys are four times more likely to encounter sexist content in their algorithm on TikTok, whether they press it or not. That's, that's a problem.
Vanessa (27:13.159)
Yeah, so they actually, yeah, they actually said they created like a typical boy profile. And just from the get go, there was 13 out of 100 of like, of these kind of misogynistic kind of sex context. And then within five days, there was 56. And then within a week, they were four times more likely to be exposed to some kind of sexual content. This is a fake profile. This is just kind of, yeah, they made a fake typical boy profile.
Lauren (27:18.508)
Yes, this was bothersome. Yep. Like sexist general. Yeah. Yep.
Lauren (27:34.038)
And this was a fake profile. then you, awful.
Teri (27:40.524)
And it's not even that the boys are seeking it out themselves. It's the algorithm. And if you are vulnerable and like Wilhelmina said, you don't feel like you have a sense of belonging and you don't even have to seek it out. It will be provided to you. And if you had qualms about your children having access to social media before age 16, watch this documentary. This will solidify it for you because the internet
Vanessa (27:43.769)
No, this was no not seeking this. It's the algorithm. Yes.
Lauren (27:44.224)
No, that's what they were saying.
Wilhelmina (27:44.245)
No. No.
Lauren (28:03.886)
If you had any doubts.
Wilhelmina (28:06.271)
Watch this. Yes.
Vanessa (28:06.801)
Watch this. Absolutely.
Teri (28:10.532)
and social media continues to be the Wild West. There are no regulations. No one cares. Everyone is looking out. They don't care about the kids. That is abundantly clear. They are just looking to make money. And what I always think about is if we think about boys who are struggling now, adolescent boys, young adult men, I had a conversation about this actually with Dr. Rachel Lofton, who was on our podcast, who specializes in autism. We were at breakfast a year or two ago when we were talking about
Lauren (28:13.196)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (28:13.533)
Yes.
Lauren (28:16.184)
They don't care about the kids.
Lauren (28:23.128)
It is, it's all money.
Wilhelmina (28:34.581)
Yeah.
Lauren (28:34.69)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (28:35.155)
last season, yeah.
Teri (28:39.992)
we can all probably identify either a family friend or a family member who really just struggled. If it was a cousin who lived in the basement or an uncle or, you know, just somebody in your orbit who didn't, who sort of was on the fringe of things. Maybe they didn't partner, they didn't have kids, they had a hard time with the job, whatever it was. What Rachel and I were talking about is she said, right, but in generations past, they still drove, they still had a job, they still had some type of
Lauren (28:51.363)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (29:05.257)
Yeah.
Lauren (29:05.418)
Mmm.
Teri (29:09.054)
lifestyle where they had to leave the house and they had to interact with other people. Yes. Yes. And, you know, we were just talking about different people we're aware of that would sort of fall into that category. But nowadays, the last 10 to 15 years, they don't ever have to leave the home. Everything can be delivered. They can order everything. They can feel connected and be a keyboard warrior and hide behind whatever their online persona is. And there's really no incentive.
Wilhelmina (29:12.087)
They would have just been that bachelor, like the bachelor pad, like, yeah.
Lauren (29:14.318)
A skill set. Yep.
Vanessa (29:14.887)
Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (29:27.047)
Literally, yep.
Lauren (29:33.44)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (29:37.538)
for them to even leave the house. There's no friend group, there's no peer group. you know, it's just what it looks like has changed.
Lauren (29:38.381)
Right.
Lauren (29:43.278)
Well, sent you guys that article. I sent you guys that article that was in like the New York Post or something about the up the the rising of what they call them trad sons. These these young men between the ages of like 18 to 34 that are either living at home or moving home and fulfilling the role of a quote traditional housewife for their parents.
Wilhelmina (29:56.994)
Yes, I was thinking the same thing, yes.
Vanessa (29:57.383)
yes.
Teri (29:59.34)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (30:11.095)
It was very odd. I was like
Lauren (30:12.086)
So they're cleaning, they're doing the groceries, they're right. And they're very happily doing so. And they talked about men or called it tread sons, because it's disproportionately men that are doing this, young men that are doing this. And I just thought what a weird way that these two things have intersected. And obviously this was really kind of like a tongue in cheek, like how funny this is. I guess it started because somebody on Jeopardy.
Vanessa (30:26.739)
Thank
Lauren (30:38.828)
when they did their little, this was, guess, a couple of weeks ago on Jeopardy did their little profiles where they talk about like their interests or whatever. He talked about how he like lives at home and takes care of like his mom and his aunts. And he like, so it was a Jeopardy contestant that like started all of this. And he was like saying like how happy he is and he watches a lot of Jeopardy and like whatever. And it was like, okay, like I don't know that we should be promoting this. Certainly if you're like a legitimate caretaker to an
Teri (31:05.304)
Great.
Lauren (31:07.498)
an aging parent that has a medical diagnosis, that's incredible. But that's not what they were talking about here. And to Terry's point, there is a loss of developmental achievements or skill sets that are going on and we're not really understanding. There you go. Yep. Yep. They had to.
Teri (31:20.952)
Yeah.
And those used to happen for the boys who struggled. The boys who struggled, they used to hit more milestones and they're not even hitting those. Yes, yes.
Vanessa (31:30.387)
Yeah.
Lauren (31:31.968)
It was that exposure therapy. They had to be out in the world to get certain things done and they don't have to anymore.
Teri (31:35.436)
Yes. Right. If they wanted to go buy cigarettes, if they wanted to go buy drugs or alcohol, they had to leave the house and people don't have to do that anymore. And one thing we touched on when we first logged on before we started recording was as I watched this documentary, I kept thinking about men and boys who are not neurotypical for individuals who are on the autism spectrum or have other learning disorders or other vulnerabilities that would make them
Lauren (31:43.011)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (31:57.159)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (31:57.373)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Vanessa (32:04.197)
Anxiety, depression. yeah.
Teri (32:05.428)
anxiety, depression, yeah, fill in the blank, where it makes them so susceptible to this type of influence and this manosphere and the red pill. Yeah.
Lauren (32:06.136)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ugh, they're so vulnerable.
Vanessa (32:13.543)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (32:15.522)
Keep your kids off social media.
Teri (32:17.814)
Yes. Yes.
Vanessa (32:17.981)
Well, know, I was just gonna say, you know, another thing that I brought up when we were kind of prepping before we started this was, you know, we talk about the algorithms, but even just the people who are online. So if any of you ever remember our first recording from this season, we went around and did like a, where we each kind of introduced a topic and I brought up this clip that I saw. And so we were talking about how, you know, women, like how, how they find men attractive.
And we posted our little video clip on TikTok. And I cannot tell you how many negative comments we received from what appeared to be, obviously we don't know for sure, men. And they just called us gold diggers. Yeah, keyboard warriors. They called us gold diggers. They were like, you're never going to get married. it just went on and on. And these people don't know us. They don't even follow our, right? And so
Teri (32:58.05)
trolls.
Wilhelmina (33:00.705)
Keyboard warriors, I like that.
Teri (33:01.858)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (33:14.661)
It just goes to show you that this is real. This is happening, right? It's so funny because the whole topic of the head really didn't, if you had actually listened to the podcast, it really wasn't even about what happened that we're commenting on. But it's scary. We're grown adults, so we could just be like, whatever. You guys don't know who we are, whatever. But you could see how vulnerable a young adult would be to hearing these negative comments.
Lauren (33:31.416)
Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (33:41.94)
And so it's scary. we, you know, a parent, again, another reason why you should be really closely monitoring your children's use of social media, because even if they're not, you know, doing these things, someone could certainly, you know, reach out to them and make a post, a negative post to them and comment on something that they've posted. So it's very eye opening.
Lauren (34:00.824)
You know, you... go ahead, Wilhelmina.
Wilhelmina (34:03.447)
I was in the clip or in the documentary that we watched, there was a mom of a couple of girls and then she had a boy and she said, you I found myself saying like, you know, you gotta be in control and you gotta do this and you gotta do this, but to her girls, but then was like, ooh, I don't know if I can say that to my boys. And that was kind of got her thinking. And it made me think because I've definitely been.
Vanessa (34:25.203)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (34:31.337)
you know, with Maddie, she was born first. And I definitely was like paving the way for like, you can be anything you want, you can do anything you want. I exactly. And then when Griffin came, I actually was just very aware of like not, you know, with color choices, not pinning him into like a you got to be a boy and you know, like shopping for boy cute boy clothes that aren't related to sports or camo. It's depressing. I'm like,
Vanessa (34:38.259)
strong independent woman.
Lauren (34:57.166)
It's depressing. Talk about depressing. That's our business idea.
Teri (34:58.68)
Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (34:58.744)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (35:01.139)
or the stars. I'm like, what? Yeah. I'm like, where are the cute? Why? I have a billion cute things for Maddie. And then I'm like, huh, I guess, yeah, it's garbage. It's garbage. so I, but Griffin, because he had an older sister, he would gravitate. He would want to wear her red sparkly shoes to preschool. And I'd let him, right?
Lauren (35:07.414)
Aw, it's awful! Yes!
Teri (35:10.38)
garbage. Yeah.
Lauren (35:11.702)
Yeah, it's garbage.
Wilhelmina (35:25.351)
He loved those shoes and one year he wanted to be frozen for Halloween and we all dressed up. Owen was Anna and he was Elsa from Frozen 1 and we were, Maddie and I were Anna and Elsa from Frozen 2. And so that was sort of like what I felt like I could give him is like, here's the messaging I'm giving Maddie and I'm gonna give Griffin the messaging that he can, like if he likes these things, he can do what he wants. My mom.
I know and I had lots of people react, but like, what if people make fun of him or what if that? And I was like, I mean, it could happen, right? Yes, of course. And it probably will, but I'm not going to tell him he can't wear these because he's a boy or he can't do that because he's a boy because I wouldn't say the same thing to Maddie. So I'm not going to say the same thing to Griffin. But just recently, and you girls know, like I just texted you about this, Griffin had
Lauren (36:11.576)
Yeah.
Vanessa (36:15.677)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (36:18.667)
gotten his like four of his nails done by his sister's friend who came over for a sleepover. She was doing the, they were doing their nails. Griffin's like, can I get my nails done? So she put these like four like tips and painted them so cute. Griffin wanted a frog and a little gnome and a little mushroom. So cute. He loved them until he went to school. Now he says no one said anything. He just instinctively was like,
Ooh, he started wearing a glove. It's just on that hand. And I was like, Hey, bud, are you covering your hand because of your nails? And he was like, mm hmm. And then started to tear up. And he, I was like, why you like, do you like your nails? He's like, yeah, I love them. And then he's like, but they're not normal. And my heart broke and I was like, I kind of fumbled around, but
Teri (37:09.075)
Hmm.
Vanessa (37:09.587)
Thank
Wilhelmina (37:18.005)
And I know I reached out to you guys and.
Teri (37:19.138)
I wish I would have told you that Caleb Williams, the Chicago Bears quarterback, paints his fingernails. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I should have replied. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (37:23.063)
Someone just told me this today. And I was like, yes, I'm going to use it when he gets home. I'm to be like, hey, by the way, another piece of info. But I did land on this one phrase that I came across that was, you get to decide what feels right for you. Like, if this feels right for you, then it's right. And your friends are going to accept it. And if they don't, then they're not really your friends.
Lauren (37:23.448)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (37:41.116)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (37:41.571)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (37:50.602)
And we kind of, but we had a big conversation, Lauren, you had said, ask him to define what normal is. But I realized, like intersecting with this episode, that he still doesn't quite have like a map of how he is supposed to be and what's okay. It's still odd if he likes those things, right? He still thinks it's odd or weird or not normal. So I'm like, he doesn't have, he doesn't know what it is he should be. He knows he's not like the super jockey kid.
Lauren (38:00.59)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (38:08.322)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (38:10.216)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (38:20.011)
Right? But he doesn't know what he where does he land? Where's his belonging?
Lauren (38:20.888)
Yeah.
Teri (38:22.104)
Where does he land?
So speaking of that, had a thought, and I'm curious to hear what your guys' thoughts are about my thought. My thought was, I want my two sons and my husband and whoever to be vulnerable, right? That is a trait that we are advertising, be vulnerable, be vulnerable. However, and this is me being vulnerable, I also find it pretty annoying at times.
Lauren (38:25.699)
But it's-
Vanessa (38:32.253)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (38:32.535)
you
Wilhelmina (38:43.371)
Yes. Yes.
Wilhelmina (38:48.5)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (38:52.749)
Yeah
Teri (38:54.198)
I do. If I'm being totally transparent and yeah, so there's times, particularly with my husband, not my kids, but my husband, where if he's being vulnerable, which by the way, I don't get to define, he gets to define what feels vulnerable for him. For him, it's often work-related, work stress-related or family, et cetera. And because I think what his vulnerable topics should be might not match up with what his actual vulnerable topics are.
Wilhelmina (38:56.351)
Absolutely.
Lauren (38:57.152)
I love that you said that, yeah.
Lauren (39:08.45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (39:24.136)
I don't get to choose those. So in turn, I sometimes find his choice of vulnerable topics to be annoying.
Lauren (39:24.994)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (39:26.795)
That's a good point.
Vanessa (39:32.635)
I'm
Lauren (39:33.176)
But let me ask you this, isn't that gender neutral? Isn't that gender neutral though? Couldn't one say that we all have vulnerabilities that are probably observed by others as annoying?
Teri (39:34.092)
Thoughts, thoughts.
Teri (39:45.57)
Yes. Yeah.
Lauren (39:47.276)
I don't know. I hear what you're saying and I think, unfortunately, you're right. Fortunately or unfortunately, you're right. Like, yeah, like you get judged for, you know, I've talked with clients about this before that they have felt like in, in their work, and then they try to translate that work into like the home or work setting and demonstrate more vulnerability. Hey, I'm struggling with this maybe, right? That people will use that then against them.
Teri (39:51.992)
It's like be vulnerable, but not about this. Be vulnerable, but.
Lauren (40:13.494)
And as you're saying that, Terry, it's more of the men and young men, adolescent boys that I've worked with. It's more of the males that have given me that feedback than females. And it just struck me as you were saying that, like, yeah, in being vulnerable, if the rest of the world's not ready for that, then you're creating a situation in which that vulnerability may result in ultimately
Teri (40:21.954)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (40:42.326)
more confusion to Wilhelmina's point, in developing my identity, who am I, what am I supposed to be? If I'm getting flack for being vulnerable, then maybe I shouldn't do that.
Teri (40:52.876)
The world's not ready is such a good way to put it, especially in a work setting for men.
Lauren (40:55.34)
Right. Hmm.
Vanessa (40:56.723)
Yeah. Well, I think they brought up a couple of.
Wilhelmina (40:58.998)
Oh, was going to ask, what do find annoying? Can you define, is it the topic that's annoying? Is it the timing? Is it sort of... Okay.
Teri (41:07.276)
Both, both. I am in the middle of doing five other things, then timing is not right. Again, like I get to choose, like to all the conditions need to work for me. That's not a marriage, right? And I do think men can really get going about their jobs. I think they can really...
Wilhelmina (41:16.673)
Okay.
Lauren (41:19.384)
Right?
Wilhelmina (41:25.527)
Let's circle back on this one. How about?
Wilhelmina (41:32.566)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (41:34.498)
dig in and I think it's cathartic and I think they need to offload. think they have a singular focus. And truth be told, Dan in comparison to what I'm aware of is actually pretty good. But if he can get going about a particular person or situation, I can tell it's consuming him. also, it's very easy to read my emotion so he knows if I'm not interested. But then I also have to
I have to correct myself and sort of check myself and say, clearly this is on his mind and he keeps bringing it up. we, yeah, I've got to devote some energy to this for him. I have to, even though that's not my preference, like that's being a partner. But I think it's both, it's the timing and the topic.
Lauren (42:11.928)
Right. And what are you modeling then? Right. Right. Right.
Vanessa (42:12.509)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (42:17.889)
think.
Wilhelmina (42:24.535)
I think I have the same issue with Owen when he brings up like health stuff, that's his thing, right? Like that's his stress coming out. And I'm like, this is just your stress. Like, I like minimize it. I'll sort of be like, I'll talk about this if you talk about it like it's your stress and not about your like knee.
Vanessa (42:24.797)
They mentioned.
Teri (42:29.494)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (42:39.705)
Imagine if he came back at you like that.
Vanessa (42:41.149)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (42:44.265)
It's totally, I often joke, I'm like, no one would think I was a therapist at home. Like I.
Teri (42:46.337)
I know.
You
Wilhelmina (42:51.575)
My level of, like, for him is like, like, come on, deal with it.
Lauren (42:51.726)
Hey, we take off our hats, okay? Vanessa, yeah.
Teri (42:52.408)
Same, same.
Vanessa (42:56.027)
Yeah. Ditto. Well, they brought up, yeah. They brought up two points that I think ties into what you're saying, Terry. One is that, you know, it's so easy to be like, this is men, this is women. And it's not like, this is not a black and white issue. There's just so much gray. And they also brought this point of like, you know,
Teri (42:57.922)
Yes.
Vanessa (43:18.705)
the things that women want can be a little confusing to men, right? Which I think plays into that too. So I think two things. One is we have to stop categorizing all men are this way and all women are this way because that's not, that is just not true. It's not helpful, it's not true. And then I think that's where some of this like, I don't know what to do comes into play because we're like, well, all men are like this, all women are that and that's just not it. And then, you know, while I do think that it can be confusing from,
Lauren (43:22.68)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (43:22.944)
Yes.
Teri (43:23.34)
Yes. Yes.
Lauren (43:29.772)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (43:30.273)
Right.
Teri (43:31.948)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (43:33.119)
Not helpful, and it's not helpful.
Lauren (43:39.52)
huh.
Lauren (43:43.171)
Right.
Vanessa (43:46.75)
for sometimes for men about what does a woman want. But I think part of that goes back to what I, the men women thing. It's not a one size fits all. I really think it's like a personal relationship. You have to get to know your partner. What is it that this partner is looking for versus like, what are women looking for? You know, they brought up the, there was this concept of these like coaches. I don't remember the guy's name, but on the documentary there was like these coaches that help give you.
Teri (44:00.844)
Yes.
Lauren (44:02.03)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (44:06.062)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (44:06.53)
Yeah.
Lauren (44:11.682)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (44:11.841)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (44:15.899)
a plan and obviously they brought up like the Andrew Tate where it's like very toxic and then they had this other guy, forget his name, he seemed a little bit more like not as toxic I would say. Yeah, mean basically.
Lauren (44:22.35)
The one out of Vegas? Yeah.
Teri (44:24.536)
That's okay.
Lauren (44:27.98)
Yeah, he was like doing exposure therapy. Yeah.
Teri (44:30.764)
Yes, that's what it was.
Wilhelmina (44:31.019)
Yeah, yeah. When he said that 50 people, thought of our class in graduate school where he said, if you have anxiety, you have to like sing on an L train. And he's like, you'll be less anxious because if you can face that fear, you can do anything and go up to 50 girls. How many do you get through? After a while, it just becomes normal. Yeah.
Lauren (44:40.588)
Yeah.
Vanessa (44:44.359)
Yeah, I think, yeah.
Lauren (44:44.524)
You can do anything, yeah.
Vanessa (44:51.379)
So yeah, was just, so bring that guy up. I just thought it was a little bit odd about, like to me, you're not really focusing on like a specific relationship. You're kind of giving these like broad, general guidelines. And I just wonder, I mean, maybe that works. I don't know. Like if it's just to reduce your anxiety, I could see that being helpful. But I just, I don't know. To me, it feels very generic. Like how could that?
Lauren (45:17.57)
Well, I mean, think we generally want to press the easy button, right? So going to a class like that and getting some really broad based rules is a lot easier than doing one on one therapy. So he's kind of gotten like an area in the business that probably appeals to a large number of men that have never done anything like this before. And it's not therapy. It's like lifestyle. I forget what they called it as well, but it was something lifestyle.
Teri (45:20.888)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (45:21.542)
yeah.
Teri (45:27.48)
Hmm.
Vanessa (45:40.051)
And it's not therapy, right? it's not, right? Yeah.
Teri (45:40.307)
Yes.
Lauren (45:47.81)
But yeah, and it did not seem toxic from what they showed. It seemed like life skills. mean, I wrote down actually, he said these are, yes, he said these are highly intellectual men who don't know how to talk to women. And I wrote down exposure therapy, question mark. They didn't use that term, but he just said, like they never learned those skills. And then they did reflect back to somebody else who talked about how like,
Teri (45:52.14)
No.
Vanessa (45:52.477)
It didn't.
Teri (45:54.488)
It seemed like social skills training. Yes. Yes.
Vanessa (45:56.435)
social skills for adults.
Wilhelmina (45:56.577)
Social skills, social skills,
Wilhelmina (46:03.051)
Yes.
Vanessa (46:05.529)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (46:05.611)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (46:16.462)
Girls learn at a much younger age how to speak about emotions and communication skills. And we all know that. I think we've talked about that in a previous episode last year where girls are socialized so much differently from the get-go to be able to talk about their emotions and boys are not. And so then you get to these young adult ages and they don't know how to talk to a woman and say, I like you, I'm interested in you. Can we go get something to eat? they just like truly don't know how to walk up to somebody and have a conversation. So it's interesting.
Wilhelmina (46:18.486)
Yes.
Teri (46:19.736)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (46:45.333)
Well, and I think Vanessa, what you were saying about like the it's going to be individualized for the partner. Someone in the documentary was like, well, you know, mixed messages. Is this like women? if you have a if you're married and it snows, well, then the woman's going to be out. Yes. Woman's going to be out shoveling where the man's inside sipping cocoa. And I was like, fuck that. No. I was like, I said one, maybe the woman's going to be out shoveling because maybe she's like, I need a break from the kids.
Lauren (47:01.452)
Teri (47:09.132)
Nope.
Vanessa (47:11.091)
We're both out there.
Wilhelmina (47:15.223)
So you're going to be inside navigating this shit show snow day issue. And I'm going to go out and take 10 and do some shoveling. No, yeah, I don't want a partner that's going to sit and drink cocoa while I'm doing the labor. But guess what? It's like, what do you want to do? Do you want to mow the lawn? Actually, I don't like mowing the lawn. Why don't I do this part of it? And then you do this part of it. It isn't like men do the labor and women don't. It's talk to your partner and you guys can
Lauren (47:15.624)
hahahaha
Lauren (47:20.674)
You
Vanessa (47:24.731)
That's happened.
Teri (47:26.54)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (47:44.874)
each take what like work together with it. It's not about male tasks and female tasks. And I think for the most part, most people want someone that's going to be their equal. They're going to carry the load equally, whether that's childcare, whether that's financial, or honestly, whether that's emotions. Women today, I know we just said not to say that, but like I think we want someone that isn't
Teri (48:09.464)
You
Wilhelmina (48:12.917)
We don't want an emotionally immature partner. No one does, really. Like we want someone that's gonna be able to be vulnerable and make space for the vulnerability and based on when it's convenient for us as women. But I think that I would say that most women, I read this somewhere else. I wish I had brought.
Teri (48:24.009)
Based on our conditions. No, I'm just kidding
Vanessa (48:25.965)
Hehehehehe
Wilhelmina (48:39.999)
I wish I'd found the article, but it was talking about how more and more women are staying single because they don't really, now they can have their own jobs, they can make their own money and they've got their girlfriends with their other friends and they're not willing to like put up with sort of like an emotionally immature man who like can't be like, can't be vulnerable, can't like talk about things, can't, doesn't have a job, like whatever it is, they want someone that's going to.
Vanessa (48:47.089)
hey.
Wilhelmina (49:08.631)
meet them and be with them as a partner in all aspects. That's what I would say. I don't know, thoughts?
Lauren (49:17.59)
I think it's, I was just going to say, I think it's interesting because we're talking about what men have to do for women and we don't ever kind of flip it and reverse it. Like we're asking men to be all things and that's super confusing. That's super confusing for these kids, these young men, these boys. and so I get, I understand how they then would be sort of drawn to recipes for what to do.
Vanessa (49:17.617)
Yeah, I mean,
Wilhelmina (49:29.974)
It is confusing.
Teri (49:30.05)
Hmm.
Lauren (49:46.606)
because we're asking them to do all the things. And that's not fair either. There has to be a middle ground. And I think it comes to taking it off social media, taking it off. mean, the one guy at the end, I think it was that Richard Reeve said, stop putting the messaging out there. Like he was saying, stop doing interviews and where the message is that men have to both be emotionally vulnerable and providers and this and that like he was kind of trying to say like, and I think it goes back to what Vanessa's.
point was a few minutes back, which was like, really does have to be specific to the individual. Like you got to bring it all back to like, what do you want? Or for us, what kind of child do we want to raise? What do we want to instill in our child? And then the goal, the hope would be that that child finds an equal partner in whatever that means for that kid. Whether it's a boy or a girl, a male or female, like it's really got to go back.
Wilhelmina (50:18.678)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (50:28.14)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (50:43.628)
to the individual and their functioning.
Vanessa (50:47.739)
They talked about the importance of role models, which I think is really important to highlight, like that that is something that boys really need. They really need role models and right and real people in their lives. You know, and I do think that's hard because, you know, if you think about our husbands and then their dads, right, there's a I think in general, we see that there's a big difference between like, you know, our dads, our husbands. And then even if you think about your grandparents, about how involved they are.
Teri (50:50.199)
Hmm.
Lauren (50:50.562)
Yes. Yeah. And they should not be out in the world.
Wilhelmina (50:50.603)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (50:55.935)
No, real, real people.
Teri (50:56.916)
real life. Yes.
Teri (51:14.852)
yeah.
Vanessa (51:14.905)
in the day to day, we can see that transition going on. But I feel like they're still trying to figure out how to do that themselves without having a role model. And so those are currently the role models. The dads who are trying to, for lack of better, do better, right? Be different, I said. Be different than the previous generation. And so I think that's part of it, right? They're trying to figure out
Lauren (51:23.35)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (51:23.352)
Mm-hmm. They didn't have role models.
Wilhelmina (51:23.799)
Right, yes. Yes, they didn't have that.
Lauren (51:32.162)
Yeah.
Lauren (51:37.08)
figure it out.
Vanessa (51:44.798)
how to do that without their own roadmap. And now we're saying, hey, but yeah, I think it's important that there'd be role models. And so if you see someone who's struggling, this goes back to what I was saying, that this isn't just a parent of boys issue, right? I mean, obviously you can be a role model if you're the parent and that's important, but even if you're not the direct parent, that it's important to provide these good role model.
Lauren (52:03.469)
Right.
Vanessa (52:12.697)
good role models to boys. And so in the documentary, you have the teacher. they're interviewing the previous student who now goes around and holds these kind of groups for the boys at the school. And he talks about how he didn't grow up in a great home with a good role model, but that this teacher was. And so it was really nice. It was so sweet to hear him talk about how important this teacher was in his life. So, you know, I think
Lauren (52:17.39)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (52:23.872)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (52:24.258)
Yeah, like little, yeah.
Lauren (52:32.502)
Yeah, that was really sweet.
Wilhelmina (52:32.555)
Yeah, I love that.
Vanessa (52:40.775)
Boys need more role models, even outside of the home. I know. I know. I know. I know.
Lauren (52:41.966)
And then they hit you with the decline of male teachers. I was like,
Wilhelmina (52:45.813)
I know, I was like, and yet they're not there.
Teri (52:46.059)
I know.
Lauren (52:50.254)
I know!
Teri (52:50.624)
And I mean, I think part of it not to be too preachy, but if there are men in our lives, anyone who's listening, your life where they are in a coach, teacher, volunteer, Boy Scout leader, fill in the blank. If they are in that role, reminding, I've done this for my husband when he's coached, reminding him that you don't know what role you're playing for some of those other kids and some of those other boys and really having them be more cognizant of that, that you could be
Vanessa (53:12.755)
Right, that's a great point.
Lauren (53:12.93)
Mmm, yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (53:13.079)
Yeah.
Teri (53:18.56)
someone they look back fondly on or someone that like you could really make a difference and maybe not even realize it. And you really can make a bigger impact rather than, I thought this would be fun to spend more time with my own kid, right? Which is part of it. But also I think that there's more there to expand upon.
Lauren (53:30.956)
Right, right.
Lauren (53:35.758)
Absolutely.
Wilhelmina (53:36.674)
We'll even think about sitting, babysitting. There is still, I'm starting to see more of it pop up that there's like, there'll be families or like moms who post like, hey, my kids are available to babysit and they'll post their girls and their boys as like sitters, but it's still few and far between, which means there is still some messaging that like, I feel like that's something where I'm like, I need to, I.
Teri (53:39.224)
Mmm.
Lauren (53:39.768)
Yeah.
Vanessa (53:54.323)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (54:03.223)
pushed for Maddie to go babysit, I should be pushing Griffin at some point when he's older to do it too, because there is a good role model. These boys, like they can take care of kids just as well as girls can, right? And there's a good example of like, if they do that, and then these kids had, I had a boy sitter, you know, then you start to like, it changes exactly.
Lauren (54:10.158)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (54:13.922)
Yes.
Lauren (54:14.286)
course.
Lauren (54:22.254)
It changes the narrative. Yeah.
Vanessa (54:24.305)
Yeah. Yeah. And I was just thinking that makes me think of the story you were telling about Griffin, of him feeling different. And I think because there's not other boys who are, you know, that like if they're demonstrating that, right, and kids pick up on that. So if they don't see it, then they start to automatically think, well, this is different. And unfortunately, a lot of kids think different is not good. Like that. mean, that is what a lot of people kind of associate that difference had. Right. Yeah. And so, you know,
Lauren (54:35.33)
that are demonstrating that.
Go.
Wilhelmina (54:45.462)
Right.
Lauren (54:45.635)
Right?
Teri (54:47.384)
Different is bad, yeah.
Wilhelmina (54:48.907)
Different is bad and I won't belong. Yeah.
Lauren (54:51.843)
Yeah.
Vanessa (54:53.627)
I think that's why. it's unfortunate because you know, actually I asked Ev, I was like, hey, Ev, if you had a boy in your class, and she was like, so? I mean, that was her just like, I was just so curious what she would think. She was just like, I don't know. It was just nothing to her, which I was like, OK, like, you know.
Wilhelmina (55:11.223)
Right. And he has two friends in his classes here that are girls and they're getting really close. And I actually said, did you show them your nails? And he was like, no. And I was like, he had shown like one of his friends and that friend loved it. But I'm like, show them. Cause I'm like, I bet their reaction is going to be positive. Like just probably. And I mean, I don't know obviously, but.
Teri (55:32.429)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (55:33.421)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (55:39.723)
I feel like girls can be generalizing again here, but like they can be more accepting of that, at least in those younger years.
Vanessa (55:47.571)
Because they're also, I think they're like taught that, right? Like that's one of those things, like they're taught like, love every, it's a, right, yeah, yeah.
Wilhelmina (55:53.163)
to be accepting and love everyone. Yes, that's how females are socialized. Lauren, this just one thought you had said like, well, boys are being taught to or like kind of pressured to like be everything or do it all, be at all. I was like, so have women been taught that now? Like we've got to be, you know, we're the primary parent. We now we work and we have to No, yeah.
Lauren (56:08.216)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (56:14.002)
No, you know what though? I would disagree with that. We are not, we are not pressured to be the security system for a home. We are not pressured to keep people safe in a family. If you're in an outing in a public place, we are not pressured to be a breadwinner. It's great for a breadwinner, but it's not a must. So I see where you're going.
Wilhelmina (56:21.559)
That's true. You're right.
Right.
You're right. Okay. We could add it on like a little buffet of what we want, but we're not pressured to be. Okay.
Lauren (56:30.424)
But that's not the expectation.
Teri (56:36.224)
Yes, but we're not pressured. Yes, I see what you're saying, but I don't think we experienced that type of pressure that that men do. I don't think. I don't know. Yeah.
Lauren (56:40.909)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (56:44.373)
Yeah, no, I think you're right. Now that you're framing it like that, I, yeah.
This was a great topic. This was like, I feel like we.
Vanessa (56:52.147)
Yeah, this was a real, I no, and if anybody for everyone listening, please watch this. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, no, I'm going to link it. Yes, it was definitely good. So just again, it was boys to men why America's sons are struggling. So good. Very much recommend. I think it was about 30 minutes, 40 minutes. was was 45 minutes. OK, yeah, it was definitely not too long and really eye opening information. So definitely check it out. Well.
Lauren (56:52.662)
Yeah, no, no easy conclusions.
Teri (56:55.158)
Yeah, good discussion.
Wilhelmina (56:55.423)
Yes. So we've got no map for you.
Lauren (56:59.606)
Yeah, it was good. We'll link it. Link it, Vanessa, when we put this episode up. Yeah.
Teri (57:02.092)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (57:07.982)
It's really good.
Teri (57:10.84)
About 45 minutes. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (57:11.223)
40 minutes.
Lauren (57:11.512)
Like 40.
Wilhelmina (57:18.379)
Yeah, thanks to my friend Kate for sending it to him. She was the one that was like, hey, you guys need to watch this. I think this would be a good topic.
Vanessa (57:21.106)
Yeah, thank you, Kate. Yeah, it was. Yes, and anyone listening, if you watch something or read something that you want us to talk about, please send it in. We are more than happy to tackle it. There you go. All right, everyone, thank you for joining us. Please join us next time on The Shrinkdown.
Teri (57:21.122)
Thank you, Kate.
Lauren (57:21.26)
Nice. Thanks, Kate. Perfect.
Teri (57:24.268)
Yeah, thank you, Kate.
Lauren (57:33.582)
Tackle it.
Wilhelmina (57:34.551)
you