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Welcome to The Overflow—the bonus round of faith and real-life conversation with Brandon and Susan Thomas. Every week, they unpack the powerful insights, behind-the-scenes experiences, and personal reflections that didn’t quite fit into Sunday’s sermon.
This is where the conversation gets practical, honest, and a little bit unscripted. Whether it's an encouraging word, a deeper dive into Scripture, or a hilarious moment from their week, Brandon and Susan bring fresh perspective and spiritual fuel to keep you going.
It’s real talk, fresh takes, and full hearts.
These are the conversations too good to cut and too real to miss.
We have a porn problem, so let's talk about it. Well, welcome friends to The Overflow. We are so excited to talk with you today and have a conversation. And I have one of my dear friends, Ashley Willis, in the house. So thankful that you're here.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And just there's just such a wealth of conversation when it comes to this topic of pornography. And for you, Ashley, just to let you know, if you know Ashley or maybe you're just meeting Ashley, this is an area of expertise in your life. All things marriage, all things relationships, sex, intimacy, what is God's design? These are areas that you have been called to and given the assignment really from God to help a generation and a people who are really lost in our day and age.
Speaker 1:And you and your husband, Dave, have an incredible ministry. So tell us just a little bit about what you're up to these days. What are you and Dave doing? Well, thanks so
Speaker 2:much for having me, Susan. I'm so excited to be here and any chance to talk to you is always my favorite. But these days, Dave and I, well, we're parents to Four Amazing, really, I wanna say boys, but really they're young men these days, two in college, two still at home. And we do marriage ministry together. And so I'm a biblical counselor.
Speaker 2:Dave has been a pastor for many years and we just have a burden for helping marriages thrive and doing it God's way. Really along the path, which we've been doing this about, I guess, twelve years now, through our own testimony, which I'll talk about in a little bit, God really has called us to talk about sex and specifically the damage that pornography causes and just bringing light to that. And so we talk about it every chance we get, whether if a church brings us in to do a conference or we're speaking on our Nick Marriage podcast, we really try to bring it to light. And I'm telling you every time we talk about it, we have people coming up to us at the end and saying, I thought I was the only one. I thought I was trapped forever.
Speaker 2:I thought I'd to live in shame forever. And we just love to be able to give them hope because there is so much hope. There's so much hope.
Speaker 1:And I'm so thankful for your voice and for you being willing to use it. Because I think that one of the hallmarks of this particular addiction, but honestly, it's not even addiction. Sometimes it can be addiction, there's progression. But no matter what the use of pornography is, it always causes harm. Such a hallmark part of it is shame.
Speaker 1:Oh, definitely. It's the shame. I know, I understand the cycle of addiction and just the cycle of bad choices or bad behaviors that we wish we could stop. And shame is such a piece of that. And so when it comes to this area, really, you guys have such an authority to speak on it.
Speaker 1:I'm just all that God has deposited in you, but also what you have personally walked through. And so I would love for you to share your and Dave's story as you walked through this area.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, Dave and I, of going all the way back to 2001 when we got married, I was still in college. He had graduated literally one week and we got married the next weekend. And we did premarital counseling like you're supposed to do, but when it came to talking about sex and intimacy, Dave would tell you, and I have his blessing to share this. He would tell you that he really felt that prompting from the Holy Spirit to tell me about his past. It was in the past at that time, his past porn addiction, but he said he was just so afraid that I would see him differently, and that here we were in our premarital counseling, he was like, I don't wanna mess it up.
Speaker 2:It's not a problem right now, so I don't need to say anything. And then Satan did a lot with that, because you know, when we keep those things in the secret places, it tends to fester, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like to say Satan loves to dance in our secret places.
Speaker 2:I love that. He just hates.
Speaker 1:That's so true. Oh, it's
Speaker 2:And he was doing a major dance, okay? And so we go into marriage with this big secret, I didn't know, and I truly had, it was nowhere on my radar. I had been personally exposed to porn when I think I was about eight years old. I had a friend, her brothers had a magazine, and this is back before internet porn. For sure.
Speaker 2:And I had been exposed to it. And I remember knowing, even not knowing what I was looking at, but knowing I shouldn't be looking at this, you know? And Dave also, I think at about eight to 10 years old, which is pretty in line with the stats, think the early that most people, if they're exposed to porn, it's about age 12. But we both were exposed early and it didn't end up becoming a part of my life, but it did for Dave. It's like something unlocked in his brain.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And he was like, oh, I wanna see more of that. And so through the years, he had more exposure. And he said for him, it was a friend's dad who had a stash of porn magazines under his bed. And he said, every time I'd go to that friend's house, we would look at it.
Speaker 2:And he's like, and it just was more and more and more because that's what does, what sin does. It requires more and more and more from you. And so over the years, it became a full on addiction. And he said, by the time that we met in college, he had repented and he had, you know, stopped looking at it. But he said the one thing that he did not do is get accountability.
Speaker 2:And you really will not, you know, stay clean from something unless you have accountability. Right. And so here we are married and great start to our marriage, but quickly I started feeling like Dave's eyes almost looked different to me. Interesting. I I did.
Speaker 2:I because one of the things I would always always tell him when we first started dating, I was like, I I just am so drawn to you because of your honest eyes. And I remember in, year two of marriage, I was like, there's I'm missing those honest eyes. And I asked him, I said, honey, I I don't think you're cheating or anything like that. And we were together like all the time, but I I'm like, something's funky. Is is there anything that you need to tell me?
Speaker 2:And he'd like, no. What are you
Speaker 1:talking about? Wow. Of course, the Bible just pops in my mind that eyes are the window to the soul. Yes. You were seeing, and you had the wisdom from God to discern something's off.
Speaker 2:Yes. But at the time he said, you know, I didn't have the courage to tell you. Yeah. And so he just buried it. But he had fallen back into looking at porn.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so he was looking at that pornography, I had no idea. Well, I happened to still be in school when we got married and I had to go use our computer, which at the time was in, like we lived in this 100 year old home and the one internet hookup was in our dingy basement. So I go down to the dingy basement and pop on the computer to look something up and I was trying to go back to one of the sites that I was needing. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And in the history, all these porn sites, you know, come up and I'm I at first, I don't even know what I'm looking at, like like the site itself. And so I click on it because I don't it's just not registering. Yeah. And oh my goodness. I'm like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Like, and my first thought wasn't, oh, Dave's been looking at porn. My first thought was who broke into my house and went to my basement and looked at porn. Because we just don't, you know, we tend to hold our spouse on a pedestal. Yeah. But in that moment, it was like the holy spirit opening my eyes to, you know, to what was really going on.
Speaker 2:Like, you know, Ashley, you say Dave's eyes look different. Well, this is what's going on. And I it was just like the world came crashing down. I was so like hurt, disgusted, shocked, in denial, sad, just all the things. And I knew I had to hear him tell me, like from his I needed to
Speaker 1:hear him from his mouth,
Speaker 2:you know, say this, I needed him to admit to it. So I called him at work and after I kind of gathered myself and I, you know, I was like, hey, sweetie. And well, that chipper. I was just like, hey, sweetie. And he was like, hey.
Speaker 2:And I said, literally all I could say was, do you have something that you need to tell me? Wow. And it was a real long pause. And then he confessed to it. Right there on the phone.
Speaker 2:Right there on the phone. And then I think he said, I'm gonna come home. Because I mean, was a lot. And he said it was the worst day and the best day all at the same time.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:Because he had felt so imprisoned by his pornography addiction. And so we had a really hard, probably ugly talk. Really I remember in that moment, even though I wanted to be on my high horse and tell myself like, oh, I would never do something like this to you. How could you betray me in this way? Really like hold it over his head.
Speaker 2:When Dave came home, I just I saw his brokenness and I was reminded, it's like the Holy Spirit piercing my heart saying, Ashley, porn may not be your issue, but you need Jesus every day. Wow. So we were able to have a conversation that was really, it just, you know, it really helped us to kinda level with each other where we were. And then in those days and months to come, Dave did get accountability finally. We got accountability software on devices, which again, this was at a time when there weren't as many devices as there are today and smartphones didn't exist.
Speaker 2:But we did get that accountability. He joined a group of men that are walking through this and had that accountability as well, and then learned how to allow God to renew his mind of this and to be free from porn. In the aftermath, there were a couple relapses, which is very typical. And that was hard. And every time that happens, it's like a bucket of trust is poured out and you have to put more drops in the bucket again.
Speaker 2:And it was a messy journey, but I will tell you, we did have, people always ask this question, so I'll go ahead and talk about it. We did have a certain amount of time where we were not intimate, just just in that healing process. Yeah. But it wasn't this crazy prolonged time. Right.
Speaker 2:It it was enough time to kind of for Dave to get his footing for my heart to begin to heal. Yes. And for that trust to start to be rebuilt. And then we just took it slow after that, but it was, you know, it was something that I wouldn't love to go back to, but I do see how God used it to actually grow us closer together because we had this big secret between us. Right.
Speaker 2:And really to live out that naked and unashamed because Dave really did.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:He said the shame was just so loud for him. Oh yeah. And once we had that phone call and he was finally able to confess it, it was that first step into the light. And that's when God really tried, you know, truly he found that healing
Speaker 1:in the yeah, Word. That's so powerful. I have a million follow-up questions. One of the things that comes to my mind though, I truly believe young people dating don't have any idea or concept of what I'm about to say. Maybe they they might, but they most likely do not.
Speaker 1:But marriage is a journey of sanctification. Oh, yes. All of life is a journey of sanctification, whether you're married or not. But if you marry another person, and that word sanctification so that we're clear on what it means, you know, Jesus saves us. We are justified.
Speaker 1:We are made right. He gives us his righteousness. And after he saves us, when we put our faith and trust in Jesus and what he did on the cross, After that, the rest of life is a journey of being sanctified, of him helping us look more like Jesus every day. And marriage is a place where that can be brutal. And when you say I do at the altar, you're not thinking about the verse, iron sharpens iron, where you're gonna it's gonna hurt Right.
Speaker 2:At
Speaker 1:times. And so it's so powerful that you already had insight, and I know God gave it to you, but it's just beautiful that even at the ground zero when your mind was reeling. And you're about to have that conversation with Dave and he comes home, that you had the thought, I have my issues too. They may be different. Yep.
Speaker 1:But you were able to see, and it didn't demean what had happened. Mm-mm. It didn't mean you didn't have to walk through the healing process, but you saw that. Yes. You saw that sanctification.
Speaker 1:And how would you help the person listening understand the norm like normalizing, in a sense, the journey of being sanctified, that we're not we don't walk into our marriage or early in life having arrived. Man,
Speaker 2:I I think we just know that, you know, like Jesus said, in this world, we will have trouble. You know, we're gonna experience trouble.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But with Jesus, you know, we can overcome.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right? Because he has overcome. And so I think just knowing you're gonna have trials, I think the hardest trials though are when we hurt one another
Speaker 1:in Yes,
Speaker 2:yes. And I think for me, What helped me is seeing Dave's repentant heart.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I think seeing the brokenness, seeing that he realized his need for Jesus, he knew he was wrong, he admitted to the wrong, that helped me to have really just to have some empathy for him. Because again, know, porn hasn't been my struggle, but I've had struggles. And really just to make matters even a little more difficult at this time, I was in the throes of depression already in this time for just other things that I was going through. And then this hit right in the midst of it. But you know what's interesting is it was kind of like, well, this is rock bottom.
Speaker 2:I mean, it was, and it was like, only up from here, God do what you need to do, you know? And so it was kind of like we both met each other right there in the brokenness. And the only way we made it through was Jesus. I mean, that's the only way. And every day I had to pray, Lord, give me a soft heart towards my husband.
Speaker 2:Because there were some days, this wasn't like, was like, Oh, you're forgiven. No big deal. Like, it wasn't like that. I mean, I was very angry and I really, really had a battlefield in my mind with those images I saw.
Speaker 1:Like,
Speaker 2:I really wish I had not clicked on that site, but I just didn't know what I was Right. What this was, you know? And Dave, one of one of the first things he said to me was you he said, you saw it? And I said, yes. One or two of them.
Speaker 2:Now I didn't go through all those sites. And he was like, I I am so sorry. Like, he goes, I would give anything for you to not have seen that. Yeah. Because it it kinda burns in there in your mind.
Speaker 1:It injures your soul.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. It
Speaker 1:injures your soul. Yes. And becomes a tool of torment. It was. In the mind.
Speaker 2:And for me, it was, oh my gosh, this is what he wants. And he's comparing me to these people that aren't even real. Right. And I in these scenarios, I just, I couldn't, that was very hard to get over.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And I really had to pray, Lord renew my mind of this.
Speaker 1:Oh, for sure.
Speaker 2:And I can honestly tell you, like when I talked about those sites, I don't have a visual anymore. Like, I really don't have a visual anymore of what I How And kind of but that took time. That took time. And it was just little by little walking that road of healing.
Speaker 1:Well, and I wanna go back to when you saw his eyes before you knew, I just had this question. In that moment, did God prompt you to begin praying for your marriage? For sure, yes.
Speaker 2:Before you knew? Before I knew, because I knew something was up. And I didn't know, you know, I didn't think it was necessarily because people will say, well, did you know it was sexual in nature? I really didn't. No.
Speaker 2:And that wasn't even an inkling. I thought maybe there was just something he was dealing with at work that he just felt like he needed to carry on his own. Like, I mean, I just had no context. No context.
Speaker 1:Felt prompted to pray. Absolutely. The reason I wanted to ask that, and I just wanna encourage the person listening, and it's not just this isn't just marriage only, although certainly applies to a marriage. But if there is something in a in your life where you feel like something's off or in a relationship or someone you dearly love, pray. Yes.
Speaker 1:I believe that the power of prayer was so huge in your moment Mhmm. Because you partnered with God in the unknown. You didn't know. You're not all knowing. God knows.
Speaker 1:But when we partner with God, whether it's for a child, whether it's for a spouse, whether it's for a family member, dear, dear close friend, whoever we're prompted with, you know, that something's off. It's amazing how often God will begin to take us on a journey. And sadly, that journey went down into your basement, where you uncovered things you didn't want to see, but it was the beginning of freedom. It was, it And as you said, Dave, which I believe is true for so many caught in this trap, was so relieved, most terrible day and the most wonderful day. Yeah.
Speaker 2:He said that was I mean, it was. It was ugly. Yeah. But it it was, you know, it's kind of like I mean, David Davis said it this way. He said, it's like cutting a cancerous tumor out of your body is ugly and painful, very painful.
Speaker 2:And it costs you time and it costs you money and it costs you all kinds of things. And there's a scar and it's just a process of healing, but that's what gets you healthy. But you're cancer free. And then you're cancer free, right. And so he said, that's kinda how it felt to him.
Speaker 2:Wow. And I would tell you too that, and Dave would tell you this, our marital intimate life, when porn was part of it, is nothing compared to what it is now. And I think one of the lies of the enemy is you need porn to spice it up. Yeah. Like, because maybe it's not just one spouse that has a secret porn problem, but it's both spouses together engaging in porn and watching it together.
Speaker 2:And I mean, sadly, I know Christian couples who have believed that lie sometimes because they just are trying to enhance their They tell themselves, I'm trying to enhance my marriage. I don't know what to do. I wanna make it better. And really, it's just a lie that leads you to that poison of porn. And so I would just encourage anybody, this isn't to sound judgmental, but in the work that we do and in our own experience, I can just tell you, don't let that be a part of your marriage.
Speaker 1:And it's just true. And it's evidence based. You and I both have the privilege to walk with people in pain. And you are certified. Tell me tell me your certification, what you do.
Speaker 2:Have a master's in biblical counseling. Yeah. And so I do biblical counseling and mental health coaching in marriage.
Speaker 1:That's wonderful. And so I also, as an LPC, we both sit down with people walking in those hard, hard places. And I can think of the couples, I can see their sweet faces, both in church leadership, but also walking with people in counseling settings where, you know, you have a couple and exactly what you said. I remember this sweet young couple sharing that they had introduced porn into their marriage, and it wasn't long after that their marriage dissolved.
Speaker 2:And I
Speaker 1:can remember the couple who, you know, coming in, she's wanting to please him, and so she follows him into an open marriage.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And they begin introducing other people into their intimacy and their relationship. And it's just a recipe for death. Yes. Death of intimacy, death of relationship, death of a marriage, death of a family. And so there's just so many sad, sad stories that it propels us to talk about it.
Speaker 1:Because we believe that God offers hope. And, you know, you said about the enemy, and I think this is one of the great traps, and he does it over and over again. But he takes what God created and he twists it. Yep. He twists what is true, and he brings the fake, the counterfeit.
Speaker 1:Right. And that's what was happening with Dave in that moment, God, praise God, broke through.
Speaker 2:Yes, I know, praise God, because it is, I mean, it's a counterfeit. Again, it's Satan saying, Did God really say, know, and is he holding out on you? This is what you need, you need more, you know, and more and more and more. And it just takes you into this rabbit hole. Know, nobody ever thinks they're gonna fall into it, into the labyrinth that, you know, ensues.
Speaker 2:And so God wants us to have freedom.
Speaker 1:He does, he does. And I wanna share some just statistics. These are some stats that that we were given about just the porn industry and the porn problem that we have. Here's a few. Adult entertainment revenues were estimated at nearly 13,000,000,000 in 2006.
Speaker 1:Well, in 2023, it was up to 58,000,000,000, but there was a range to 287,000,000,000. So you follow the money trail and you see the lives impacted behind the scenes. Yes. Experts estimate roughly 4% of the Internet is pornography. The Internet is very large.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. That's a large percentage. Yes. And and that just the countless lives again impacted. OnlyFans launched in 2016 now generates $6,600,000,000 in annual revenue.
Speaker 1:And then just public perception is, I think, interesting. Couple things. 46% of people believe porn is harmful. 38% are neutral. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:They they're not really sure. And what's interesting about the 46% that believe it's harmful, many of those people are struggling with it. They're speaking out of experience, not observing from afar.
Speaker 2:Right. Exactly.
Speaker 1:And and that's the real the real struggle. I found it very interesting as far as consumption in The US. 61% of the general population report viewing pornography.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Over half of of people, 78% of men, 44% of women, which you and I both believe that that number, that gap is probably closing. I think so. Tell your experience just with women and men, but women, this is our know, sometimes we think, oh, this is a man's problem. Not anymore.
Speaker 2:Not anymore. I mean, I'm telling you in the counseling space, I talked to many young women in particular that find themselves having a porn habit to addiction. There's a spectrum there. Right?
Speaker 1:For
Speaker 2:sure. But they go there, you know, because it's almost like there's this narrative like, well, this is what you need to know your body, to know what you like, to know what a man will expect of you, you know, for women who are waiting, like this is, and it comes into their life and then they feel gripped by it. Yeah. And there's even like some of the most popular shows on Netflix, like, can I name this show? Yes.
Speaker 2:Okay. So there's a show called Jenny and Georgia, lot of really cute episodes. Okay. Like it's an enjoyable show, but I was kind of taken by surprise for one of the main characters. She's a young girl, maybe 14, 15, has her first crush and the guy encourages her to masturbate and to watch porn and to get to know what to do because and was kind of like making fun of her that this had not been part of her life.
Speaker 2:She wasn't sexually sexually active. And so she was like, oh my gosh, I don't wanna be like not in the know. So it sends her on that path. And I think it happens that innocently. So we have to be aware, you know, as parents and as young people and people of all ages, that this is a poison.
Speaker 2:And it will take more from you than it gives. And it really just, it's just going to not only hurt you even for those who aren't married and maybe are just trying to fulfill sexual needs through this. You know, we are sexual beings and we have those drives, but that's not the place we're supposed to take that. Right. You know, God calls us to wait because it's a beautiful gift for marriage.
Speaker 2:But I think there's such, there's a murkiness about this throughout church and culture.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And we just have to agree that it's wrong. And I mean, it says to look at a woman with lust is committing adultery in your heart. That's right. And that includes pornography. For sure.
Speaker 2:And so what it does is it really it it creates us to be selfish lovers when we ultimately do marry because it becomes just self focused because that's what it's trained us
Speaker 1:to do. That's unbelievable. I mean, again, there's like a million follow-up questions I have about this, but I wanna hit on that selfish lovers. And I wanna go back to that the show that you talked about. But the selfish lovers, this is such a wild and radical thought when you think about sex, but sex at its core is to be an act of worship.
Speaker 1:Yes. And people think, what on earth do you mean? Are you singing in the middle of it? What are you, you know, what are you doing? But when we understand that God says do everything as unto the Lord.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Everything. That underlined everything. That's not certain things are compartmentalized. It's everything.
Speaker 1:Do everything as unto the Lord. That includes sex. Mhmm. And sex done God's way is truly an act of worship. Lord, I trust you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for this gift. God, I give
Speaker 2:it back to you. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I I appreciate the gift, but I don't elevate the gift to God like status. Absolutely. That is anti the thinking in our world. That is not only anti, it's just not even a thought. Right.
Speaker 1:That that would be the way that we think about or engage in sexual activity. And so I think that's one of the first spaces for someone listening to of just understanding and healing is, wow, I've been thinking all wrong about sex in general. That it's about me. Exactly, exactly. I mean, that's
Speaker 2:because that's what the world tells us is it's about fulfilling your needs. And if you're constantly, you know, going to porn to do that, you know, when you do find that person you love and you marry them, and then now sex is this gift you celebrate together. If we trained our minds for it just to be about us, we're missing out on what sex is really about and the fullness of the beauty of it, because it's body, mind and spirit. It's not just meant to be a climax. Right?
Speaker 2:And I think that's where the confusion comes into. And we know, you know, God is not the author of confusion. He wants this to be something that is clear that we can enjoy. And he gives us a roadmap to that in the Bible. But I think that we've been so inundated with these mixed messages about sex through things like pornography, but really you don't even have to look at a pornographic film to watch something that's pornographic in nature.
Speaker 2:I mean, of the numbers, was just talking to people earlier today about this for some reason. Well, actually I know the reason to draw people in because we are sexual beings because we are, you know, our eyes are drawn to nudity. Make no mistake that Netflix and prime and HBO Max and all these channels, Apple included, they all know this. So in the first season of the most popular shows, they're gonna show more nudity than they ever show in the other seasons because they wanna just lure us in. And so you don't even have to be watching porn for things to be pornographic.
Speaker 2:I think we've pushed and pushed and pushed the envelope with And so I know for Dave, after gosh, decades of being in porn recovery, there's certain shows we'll turn on and all of a sudden there's like a major sex scene happening. And we have to fast forward and Sex turn it off or It is, it is. And I know to the an unbelieving world, they'd like, that's ridiculous. But I'm telling you, we never wanna go back there. So we have to have boundaries.
Speaker 2:You know?
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely. When you understand the damage, when you've walked through the pain, no, you don't want to go back there.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But I think understanding the purpose of sex and the design of sex helps us begin to see the counterfeit, you know, that Absolutely. You can
Speaker 2:spot it.
Speaker 1:You can spot it. Yes. Yeah. And so how would you speak to the purpose of sex, the design of sex? Well, I
Speaker 2:think it's unity. It just brings a husband and wife together like nothing else can, but it's not just the husband and wife, it's the Lord too, like you said, an act of worship. It's a holy experience. And I've heard it said like a mingling of souls, which I love that phrase and it's just beautiful. And I think we treat it as this special gift.
Speaker 2:We don't, like you said, elevate it to God like status, but this very special gift that we get to celebrate and enjoy within marriage, you know, for procreation and for pleasure. And so we wanna make sure that we hold it highly in that way as something special and and treat it as such and see pornography goes directly against that. Yes. Yes. It promises the pleasure.
Speaker 1:It promises connection, and it delivers the opposite. Exactly. And so when I think back to that show, I wanna go back to just the show that you and I just, again, believe for particularly any parent that you have children
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That this is yet another exhibit a of why our eyes have to be wide open. Mhmm. We are the guardians for our children. Yes. But you described it to me earlier as this cute teenage guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And he said the characters are attractive. She's this pure wholesome girl, and yet the the script is that this is the way.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. Like, this is how you find out what to do, you know? Mean, this is mind you, not necessarily like a Christian family, but I can tell you, and I know you will agree, none of us are immune to this. Like, we all have to be watchful. And I do but I could see how anybody like an impressionable young person would be like, oh, that's what we're supposed to do.
Speaker 2:Right. I don't wanna be the oddball. Like, I need to understand these things. And I mean, it could be as easy as that. Mean, I have a dear friend of mine, you know, again, you know, this was back before the times that we have smartphones now and it wasn't even as accessible as it is now.
Speaker 2:She said early when she was dating her boyfriend, they're both Christians, they're both wanting to wait. But she said they ended up, you know, somebody was like, what are you guys doing? You need to look at porn. And she said it became part of their relationship until they eventually got married. And then it caused all these problems and they had to get help and they had to agree that this is not what God calls us to.
Speaker 2:So I do think that sometimes we can fall into this innocently, even though there's something inside us. I mean, even the stats show it. There's something inside of us that says, I don't know if this is right. But I think we need to really, really, with all the information we have now, realize I mean, secular and Christian research shows this isn't good for us. Like, this is ultimately going to harm us in our relationship.
Speaker 1:When I find it so interesting that often, even if our mind is not aware, our soul knows.
Speaker 2:Yes. Our soul
Speaker 1:knows because God has created us. In his image, he knit us together. He knows what works. He created sex for this conversation. Mean, he created sex.
Speaker 1:It's his, you know, copyright. And our soul at the core knows. Right. And so the injuries that are happening to us, often, if we don't have the clarity of God and his design, we'll blame it on other things. Right.
Speaker 1:Blame the injuries on other people, on other things, not realizing, okay, this is where the enemy is is wreaking havoc on my life and on my relationships. I think back to just the law of diminishing return of porn. Let's talk about that for a minute. Oh, yeah. Just, you know, how it it can begin with such exhilaration.
Speaker 1:By the way, I think there's different reasons people go to porn. One, it can start out with just that intrigue. Sure. That pleasure seeking.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Our body responds when we see those images. But also, I've I've met people that they can go for comfort. Absolutely. Let's talk about that.
Speaker 2:It's not always sexual. Right. Now it usually starts sexual often, yes. But it is, because it's a dopamine hit. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so there's things going on in your brain. And I know, I mean, I'll give a prime example. So Dave, you know, years ago got a call from a childhood friend and he said, you know, he tracked Dave down because he knew this was part of our testimony. And he said, man, he said, I love my wife and my kids and I don't wanna lose them. But he said, I am absolutely addicted to OnlyFans.
Speaker 2:Oh. He said, I'm absolutely addicted. He said, I knew it was really bad when I would go on my brakes at work to my car to watch it and obviously to masturbate too. Because this there's usually masturbation with porn together, watching any kind of porn. And and he's like, I'm literally like and and he said, and it's not just sexual.
Speaker 2:He said, it's a comfort. But then he said, I have like, he was starting to have erectile dysfunction, which there's stats about this.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. There are.
Speaker 2:When it comes to pornography. And he's like, it's ruining my life, but I feel like a fiend. Like I'm helpless against it. It's like, and again, was it was brain chemistry. It had literally, just like any addiction, it had altered his brain chemistry.
Speaker 2:In fact, I don't know if we have this stat on this particular paper, but I've heard it said that when you look at brain scans, that it does very similarly, it lights up the place of the brain that heroin addiction lights up. Not surprising. It's not surprising. But I think that again, as a culture, we've accepted it so much that, you know, that's shocking to hear because it's like, what? And if you think about it that way, you're like, oh my goodness, I don't want my brain to be like, it's addicted to heroin.
Speaker 2:Right. You know? And so, it also shows you that that's why it's serious and that's why, you know, we need to get help to overcome this.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Well, and the industry behind the porn movement doesn't care about the people. No. I was listening. You know, there's several influencers, Christ followers
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Who have come out of the industry, and it's so interesting to hear the different perspectives and things that that are revealed. But one of the things I recently heard is how so many of the people working in the porn industry have to take so many medications just to get through a shoot.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Just to get through a shoot Right. They have to take their anti all their antianxiety meds and all of just so many different medications. Mhmm. And it's just such a picture that even their body and soul and emotions know, I cannot do this as a normal human person functioning. I'm gonna have to have have help, you know, prescription help.
Speaker 1:It's just one example of many of just the brokenness and the fakeness Yes. Of what we're watching. And yet that industry is pulling people's lives and harming them so much. I mean, that's the guy, the friend that you were telling about. I think he represents probably more people than any of us would realize.
Speaker 1:And God's saying, I have hope for you. I wanna rescue you. I wanna heal you. I wanna help you. So with you and Dave, you mentioned several things on that road to recovery.
Speaker 1:What are some things that you would share with the person listening who maybe is trapped and just unwanted behavior? I continue again, addiction, a lot us would would say, oh, I'm not addicted. Mhmm. But any harmful behavior hurts.
Speaker 2:It does. How would you help
Speaker 1:them or encourage them with the road to healing?
Speaker 2:Well, I would say too, don't wait till it's a full on addiction to get Right. I mean, even if it's a habit, if it's something that you feel sometimes like you're helpless against it, like not maybe you're not even doing it every week, but it's this thing that when you do it to you, like you said, something's dying inside of Yeah. Yeah. Then that's that red alarm, like, you know, get some help. But I would say you have to have a trusted person in your life that you can confess this to.
Speaker 1:Mean, you
Speaker 2:first and foremost, we confess it to the Lord. Right? Right. He already knows, but we bring it to him. But then we have to have people.
Speaker 2:Healing happens in community.
Speaker 1:It's true.
Speaker 2:So if you're married, you've gotta tell your spouse because it's not only harming you, it's harming them, it's harming your relationship and sinning against them. So you need to confess it to your spouse, but you also need to have an accountability partner. And I would say for those who are married, it's not necessarily always your spouse who needs to be that account accountability partner. Now, what I mean by that is obviously we provide accountability as but in some of these softwares, the accountability softwares, you know, you sign up for a person who, if you happen to look up porn, it emails them anytime you've looked up something. And for some wives, like if they're, you know, trying to support their husbands, it's triggering.
Speaker 2:And so they do have this check-in with their husband. I'm not saying they're like putting their head Right. In the Exactly. But maybe there's a trusted man that you both agree is somebody who can be that accountability partner. Like Dave is that for several guys And so you have people in your life.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying everybody needs to know, but you have people in your life that love you, that love the Lord, that are for your marriage and are gonna give you sound advice and truly hold you accountable. These aren't yes people that are gonna bury it, but are gonna really ask you this hard question. So that would be my first step.
Speaker 1:Also- Well, one I would say is so rooted. I mean, Jesus says, I think it's in James, God says, confess your sins one to another that you may be healed. Exactly. Prescriptive.
Speaker 2:It is prescriptive. It really is. And there's such freedom in that. Now it's scary and everything in you is gonna say, you shouldn't tell them. Right.
Speaker 2:But that's just fear taking And over, so we have to go push through that fear and really get the help that we need. And I would say there's ministries like Pure Desire. They offer groups for men and women who are going through porn struggles. It's Christian based. And I think they're online groups and something like that is really good to help you get through too.
Speaker 2:And they have resources with that. I think as far as like some accountability software, there's Covenant Eyes, they're an amazing ministry. There's Ever Accountable, but you've got to, first of all, have that accountability with real people in your life, but also get that software so that you have that technological accountability as well, because it blocks the porn, but it also, it does report it to someone to kinda keep you on your toes and say, okay, what was going on? Because you kinda learn your patterns too. And like, why was I going to that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. What triggered me What
Speaker 1:was I feeling? Lured me. Yes. Yes. And that's where you can begin to discover, okay, what is drawing me?
Speaker 1:What's the desire? What's the motivation I'm trying to achieve here? Is it is it just a pure desire, a lust driven desire? Yes. Am I in pain?
Speaker 1:Is there something painful happening in my life, and this is a place where I go Mhmm. To distract or to comfort? Just really getting to the root of that helps us begin to see, okay, what's the real problem here? Yes. I'm trying to medicate And inside of my maybe I had this thing that was enjoyable for a season and I thought I could control it, but now it controls me.
Speaker 1:Right. And I would add that all of those things are so important. I would add another that I experienced you know, for me, I had addiction to food.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:That was a four year journey in my young adult season of life. And I think addiction in general has so many common attributes, really, to just fill in the blank with what your addiction or what your bad habit is. Absolutely. But just the cycle of the draw and the lure and the the behavior that at some point seems uncontrollable. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And then you give into that behavior, experiencing it, and then the shame that follows and then the sadness, and then you find yourself right back in trying to medicate now that shame, that sadness. Mhmm. It's that ongoing Yes. And so the accountability that you mentioned, getting tools in place and get to the altar. A 100%.
Speaker 1:Yes. I mean, so many times I know for my life, I can remember seasons of just in the altar multiple times and God just meeting me there. And sometimes healing and freedom comes in an instant. Sometimes that healing is a journey and a process. But either way, hold on to God.
Speaker 1:Don't run from him. Because I think we can look at God and think, well, he's disgusted by me.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:He is so angry with me. He is angry at sin. He's disgusted by sin. He loves you fiercely. He died for every last one of these moments and these sins.
Speaker 1:And I think knowing that about God and how freedom is in his wings, healing is in his wings, he's ready to heal us. And just getting to those spaces, those altars is so powerful. That's right. You know, it your the stakes are high.
Speaker 2:They are.
Speaker 1:Your life and your future, your relationships. I will read this one stat that really struck me about marriage.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:When pornography is viewed, couples are twice as likely to separate. Man. Twice as likely. That's a 50% increase that this marriage will dissolve. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's it's unbelievable.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And so just the stakes are so so very high. Right. Any final thoughts or words that you would just offer of practical advice, steps, or just hope?
Speaker 2:Well, I would say this. I remember in the beginning stages of Dave trying to to heal and trying to recover from this porn addiction, you know, the shame was really heavy. And I remember, you know, there were times when he would be just so disgusted with himself and it was like he allowed the enemy to give him the identity as porn addict. And I would just say, you know, we have to know who we are and whose we are. Wow.
Speaker 2:And the only way we can know that is bringing it to the altar and saying, Jesus, help me to know who I am in you. Yes, I dealt with a porn addiction, but that's not who I am. And we got it off, you know, take those labels off that the enemy has tried to stick to you. And the more that you do that, the more freedom you'll feel. And I remember, and this is for the married people specifically.
Speaker 2:I remember there were times when Dave was super vulnerable and I was in an angry place and I could have been like, you know what? That is who you are because I wanted, you know, there were times I wanted him to hurt.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, because I'm human. And, but very quickly, very quickly, it was like, had a reckoning with the Holy Spirit and he would be like, Ashley, like, you know, have stuff too, you know, and you need Jesus to remember this isn't who Dave is. This is something he has dealt with, right? And I, being his wife in that vulnerable moment, had an opportunity to speak life and not speak death. And there were times where I would say, Dave, remember, this is not who you are.
Speaker 2:Like, I'm standing on God's word. This is not who you are. This is something we walked through and something that tried to knock us out. Yeah. But it's not who you are.
Speaker 1:I'm telling you, the person listening, you need to rewind, listen to that again, reverse, hear what you just said again. That's unbelievably profound and part of God's story of healing. It is. It is Unreal. So just that that's not who you are.
Speaker 2:No. No. Yeah. And do you think Dave recognized that? He did.
Speaker 2:And I think he needed that reminder because I think when you're in the midst of it and you've had a relapse, you know, especially you've had a relapse, you're like, this is just gonna be who I am. And it's that cycle you talked about, the addiction cycle. It's like, might as well just do it again because this is just who I am. And you feel helpless, but that's a lie directly from the enemy. And God says, no, no, no, I'm gonna renew your mind.
Speaker 2:You're a new creation. The old is gone, the new has come. And so on those low days, we had to cling to God's word. And that's what would get us through.
Speaker 1:And when you talk about that fight, it makes me think when God says, Fight the good fight. Paul said, I fought the good fight. Part of the good fight is fighting this type of a thing in your life. Not being punked, thinking that because I fail or because I did it again, oh, well, this is just my life. I'm just gonna have to live this way.
Speaker 1:No, this is the good fight. It's a fight worth fighting when we fight for God's design, fight for his way, deny ourselves, take up our grass. I mean, is when we are putting porn to the wayside, it's that it's just nailing that sin to the cross of Christ, and there's gonna be life and hope on the other side.
Speaker 2:That's funny.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for just your vulnerability. Thank you for all that you do and just the ministry that you have and just who you are. Honestly, I'm so grateful for you, Ashley. How can we follow you? How can we keep up with you guys?
Speaker 1:What's something that you're passionate about right now, a book, anything that we can just get more of what you have to share.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you. And I'm so grateful for you and Brandon. I mean, you guys are just such dear friends and we look up to you all and just love everything that you guys do and who you are. So I would say right now, just go to Instagram at Dave and Ashley Willis. You can go to daveandashley.com and we actually have a free resource that actually is about sex and it talks about pornography too.
Speaker 2:So if you go to our website, daveandashley.com, you can get it there. And it, I mean, a single person could get it, but it's really specifically for married people, or if you wanna be married one day. And also our newest book is Do Marriage Better. And we do talk about these things. We go into all aspects of marriage and how we can make little shifts to do marriage better.
Speaker 2:And I would say too, if you want a free resource, one of our favorites is the Naked Marriage Podcast, where
Speaker 1:we talk about anything and everything marriage. Yes. Oh, thank you, Ashley. I'm so grateful for you and thank you for tuning in. So glad that you joined the conversation.
Speaker 1:We'll see you next time on The Overflow.