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This podcast and community breaks the silence, shame, and fear that often surrounds sexuality, unwanted pornography use, and betrayal trauma and helps you embrace your God-given sexuality with courage compassion and connection. People just like you share their stories of recovery and forgiveness and experts teach principles, share insights, and provide real tools to help you rebuild trust and develop healthy sexuality. Ask your questions anonymously and expert therapist, Rachel Denton, will answer them and discuss practical tools to help and gain insight as to how ecclesiastical leaders can play an effective and powerful role in your healing. Join Crishelle Simons as she breaks the silence and together we can create a culture of courage, compassion, and connection.
This podcast is brought to you by Reach 10. Reach 10 is a non-profit with a mission to educate and help young adults overcome the effects of pornography and betrayal trauma and create healthy relationships with themselves and others.
Join the community at @breakingthesilence_reach10 or visit reach10.org.
We share these views to open the dialogue and educate on these tough issues and to create a healthier culture of sexuality. The opinions and views shared by the host or guests do not constitute as professional advice or services and do not necessarily reflect the views of Reach 10, and we don't guarantee the accuracy of any statements you hear. Reach 10 is not responsible for your use of information heard in this podcast. We keep learning, and invite you to join us as we build a more open, compassionate, and courageous culture.
BTS 2.3 boundaries version 2
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[00:00:00]
Crishelle: Welcome back listeners. Today, we are breaking the silence and kicking off our ASCA therapist series with Rachel Denton.
She is so awesome. We are so lucky to have her. She grew up in Portland and came to Utah for school. She graduated from the university of Utah. With her master's degree in social work. Rachel worked with different agencies that specialize in pornography and addiction issues, including the fight, the new drug until she had her adorable baby girl.
She's the cutest and decided to focus on her private practice. She's on the board for each 10, the nonprofit that makes this podcast possible.
And today we are breaking the silence and answering the question, what are some examples of good boundaries and consequences if those boundaries are broken?
So Rachel, go ahead and say hi to our listeners and then let's just get started talking about boundaries.
Rachel: Yeah. Well, I mean, this is a really important topic that I think [00:01:00] that we use a lot, but we don't really know what it means. And so I'm glad that we're taking some time to break down a little bit of what boundaries are and what they may look like in a relationship and. How to use them in a way that's helpful and not harmful to relationship.
Crishelle: Totally.
Rachel: yeah, so, you know, at the beginning you asked for, to start with what, what are boundaries? Like, what is a boundary just in general. And I think a lot of times we as in our as our culture talks about boundaries in a way that more feels like consequences, like my bound, like an example might be my boundary for you is if you get angry with me, then I'm going to shut, like, shut you out or shut down, or, I'm going to, or you, you're not welcome here.
Or whatever it may look like. When it's used in a way that is meant to manipulate or to Yeah, essentially create a [00:02:00] consequence or punishment, then that's not really going to lead to a healthy, thriving relationship.
Crishelle: Yeah, it kind of sounds like more of a parent child relationship as opposed to like partners.
Rachel: Right. Yeah. Well, and I think that, That's actually an interesting point because I think that as parents, like parents give boundaries oftentimes poorly as well because it's usually coming out of a place of either fear or anxiety from the parent themselves of like, oh no, if I don't do this, my child's gonna end up being a bad kid or not going to excel the way I, you know, I would like them to, or whatever it may be.
And so When boundaries are given and out of a place of anxiety that tends to lead to, or anxiety or fear, that tends to lead to more, like I said, more manipulation type of boundary or manipulative type of boundary, or just trying to coerce [00:03:00] someone into doing a behavior when in reality like we can't control other people.
And so. I think an important way to look at what a boundary is, is more of one, what is it that what is it that's really going on here for me? I think that we often struggle to look at what's my stuff and what's my, either my partner stuff or my child's stuff that I'm trying to set this boundary with, and how can I clearly tease those apart so I can see easier where a boundary needs to be laid.
Crishelle: I think that this is so beautiful because yes, I would say that most often as a whole, as a society, as a culture, we think of boundaries of just being like, here's the consequence that happens if you choose to act this way. And that's the boundary. And what you're describing I think is so much different than.
What is typically [00:04:00] accepted or thought of as boundaries. And and I also love that you talked about, and I I think we'll get into this a little bit more of, of the motive behind the boundary that you're setting being incredibly important.
Rachel: Hmm.
Crishelle: Because if it is coming from a place of fear or anxiety, then it will, it probably won't ever lead to the outcome that you actually want in your relationship.
Whereas if it can be motivated in a place of I, I would guess like equal partnership or creating safety in a relationship or creating Cohesiveness or like, I'm trying to think of the right word, then it can, it can lead to probably the outcomes that you're actually looking for.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Crishelle: Would you, is, is that, is that right?
Am I, am I understanding what you're describing?
Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, because in the end, boundaries are meant to bring two people closer [00:05:00] together and like, like a well done boundary. That's, that's what hopefully the outcome will be. But a lot of times when we give an outcome out of fear or. More of like a reactive reactive boundary, then that's going to be incredibly disconnecting for both the person giving the boundary and the person receiving it.
And so,
Crishelle: I think we need to say that again for the people in the back. I'd say it louder and shout it off the rooftops. That's so profound what you just said. When done correctly, boundaries create more connection and bring people. People closer together,
Rachel: Absolutely.
Crishelle: profound and beautiful.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's, it's interesting because this is where we start to get a little bit more into the complexities of what does what does a boundary look like then? Because it's not like, I think a lot of people feel like, I would love it if I had a script of this is a boundary I can read to my partner when they're doing something I don't like or to my child.
But in the end, it's, it's less about what's said [00:06:00] and more about has this been. I think, I think in two parts. One is is this coming from a place that is regulated in me? And have I also taken the time to look at what is my, like, what is my role to play in the situation that we're in? And what can I personally be accountable for?
Now, I know this gets a little bit tricky when we're specifically talking about something like pornography because times especially the person who. Is in a relationship with someone struggling with pornography, that person often can feel like, well, I have no part in this. And that's probably true, at least in their decision to, to look at pornography or to go down that path.
But there are areas, I think it's important for that partner to take a look at themselves of how am I playing into this dynamic? Is there any way that I need to. Kind of mature a little bit around the, you know, with, with my, with the way I react to [00:07:00] this or so once, once that, so we can get more into what that may look like in just a minute.
But back to what I was saying before is once that becomes very clear, then I think the boundary also becomes very clear where it's coming from. A place of, I'm saying this because I respect myself and I respect you, and so I. I it's important that we have this discussion so that we both know how to be in a relationship with each other.
Crishelle: Yeah, that's, that's really, really beautiful and I think it requires quite a bit of maturity
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Crishelle: I. And self-reflection in order to even be able to approach the conversation. And, and that's why I think maybe a script doesn't actually work,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Crishelle: is that, is that accurate?
Rachel: I'd say so. Yeah.
Crishelle: Because like, yeah, I can just say the words, but if I haven't done the self-reflection and the time to really.
To figure it out, what it is that I need to be doing in the relationship and what it is that I need to take [00:08:00] ownership of, then no. No script is actually ever going to be effective.
Rachel: Right, right. Yeah. And, and so that's why, you know, this question is a little bit tricky where it's asking for what examples might sound like, I think because I think it, like I was saying before, it kind of just depends. So let's take I don't know if you wanna like, dive a little bit more in, in
Crishelle: Yeah, let's dive in. Like, because I think, I think the person asking this question, I. Is coming from a place where we all have probably been at some point in our relationship of like, what does this even look like?
Rachel: right,
Crishelle: How do I navigate this moving forward? Or I've been burned in the past and I want to do this different.
Right. I and, and we don't know the full context of this question, but I think, I think it would be really helpful maybe to just, and we can kind of make up a scenario maybe of what this might look like in a makeup make believe relationship.
Rachel: Okay. Yeah. So let's say that there's there's a [00:09:00] couple that is newly married or, or let's say in a serious relation, let's say a serious relationship. And one person, you know, has been upfront about struggling pornography. Let's just use the stereotypical terms here. Let's say that That the, the man is saying like, Hey, I've struggled with this since I was a kid.
And then the woman in the relationship she feels, doesn't love it, but that there's been like, that, there's been dialogue in the past about, okay, I know that you struggle with this. Where do we stand as a couple on this? Cause I think a lot of times there's an assumption that Both people think that pornography is not good and should never be consumed.
And so when one person breaks this very unspoken contract, then it can get a little bit trickier. So I think it's important for any brand new couple where pornography is brought up of, of just to say like, well, what, like what do we want this? Like, what do we want relationship, [00:10:00] our relationship to be with pornography?
So is it something that if I know that you struggle, is it something that I'm okay if it happens once a month, once a year? Do I, do we believe together that this is something that should never happen? I, I guess I'm trying to say is it's making a decision as a couple, this is what we value in our relationship rather than,
Crishelle: beautiful and so needed.
Rachel: Yeah. Because otherwise it's, it's like this weird unspoken how, what's the right word? Like this weird, unspoken contract that both of you have made, but maybe both of you haven't understood what the other person believes or what that is gonna look like. So
Crishelle: Totally. And I would even say that it would be important to define what you view as pornography. I.
Rachel: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Crishelle: for both people. For both parties, like what you're okay with? Like what do you view as being a, a breach of your trust in your relationship in regards to [00:11:00] pornography use?
Rachel: right. And, and I think, and I think with this, with this conversation, what is the second half most important part of this is for the person that is struggling with pornography, to be very honest. About realistically what this is gonna look like in the relationship. So this is different than saying like, well, I struggle and sorry, this is gonna be, this is just gonna be here.
It's more of a, like, I'm trying, you know, I, I've, I've been working with perhaps a therapist or I, this is something that I have been talking to Bishop about, or whatever, whatever it is. But despite all of this, I tend to slip up about once a month, and so I'm gonna, I really don't want this to be part of our relationship.
It's important to me that I continue to work on this, but I need to be honest that realistically it's going to be a part of our relationship just because historically, like that's what history has shown us. Shown, because then [00:12:00] having, so having a really upfront conversation like that allows her to then decide, okay, well, Can I live with that?
You know, I'm aware he's working on this. I'm aware he's wanting to change and working towards change, but where he's at right now, this may happen once a month or once every other the month. And can I handle that? So, I think why this is crucial is because a lot of times where this betrayal idea comes in is when it feels like I didn't get a choice.
I didn't get to make a choice in this. I didn't like if there was no true honesty, I didn't get to, yeah, I didn't get to choose. But if this conversation has happened, then she can say, I don't like this, but I knew like I, but I still made this choice. And. I mean there, and with that, there's always a choice to leave if, like, if it, if it's not getting any better or if things continue to get, get worse or, or whatever that may look like.
I'm not saying because you chose once, you have to continue to choose this [00:13:00] relationship, but it is important to, I think that gives a sense of agency that then takes out some of that betrayal piece to it because there was agency.
Crishelle: Totally. And I think the honesty is very freeing, probably, probably for both people, not just the woman choosing into the relationship and being able to be like, oh, this is, and again, we're using the stereotypical.
Rachel: Right.
Crishelle: What this has historically usually been, but it could be either party, but what the woman choosing in, but also the man being honest with like this has been the pattern and I, maybe the last like three months has been kind of like this beautiful period where we've been dating and I haven't been struggling with as much, but honestly I, it might happen again and how are we gonna move moving forward?
Rachel: Yeah. Well, and that's great because then it leads to the next part of the conversation where she can then have some time to figure out, is this something that I choose? [00:14:00] But then also, okay. Understanding this, what is it that, like, how do I wanna show up in a relationship with someone that struggles with pornography?
You know, is it that I'm gonna say, okay, well for every time that you do this is going to be the consequence that may not be the best relationship for them to be in. And, and this is This is again, where it gets a little bit tricky is because, again, I'm not saying that it's just like a free pass.
Well, this is something he struggles with and like, oh, well I guess I have to just deal with it. That's not what I'm saying. What, what, what I am saying though is when we're setting boundaries to be consequences, like, okay, every time you do this, then I'm going to Then like I, then I like it. Like let's say she says, if you do this three times, I'm out of this relationship.
That's more of a consequence rather than boundary because my guess is that comes more from a place of anxiety [00:15:00] rather than a, like a peaceful place, if that makes sense.
Crishelle: Yeah. And so what I hear you saying is that the boundary needs to be less about what's gonna happen to the other person and maybe more about what you need in order to. Continue to regulate yourself and your emotions in the relationship moving forward. Is that
Rachel: Yeah. Absolutely.
Crishelle: I, I mean, I'm just imagining.
In this, like how I would feel, right? First of all, that would probably trigger all of the feelings of 12 year old me who walked in on my dad relapsing pornography and just like, oh my gosh, my world has ended , so, I'm sure it would trigger so much fear and pain, even just having this conversation.
And I would have to just own that. Like I'd have to be like, okay, I need you to know that I'm like, Freaking out right now, and I'm trying not to run, but I wanna run and I, I, I'm just using myself as an example because that's who I know best.[00:16:00] I just know that often in these conversations, but also moving forward when your boundaries are maybe tested or when there comes that conflict in maybe your agreements in your relationship.
You're gonna have things triggered that happened then, but also stuff like that's happened in your past. Right.
Rachel: Absolutely
Crishelle: Whether that's something you observed in someone else's life or something that literally happened in your life. Right. And so I think, and, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think when it comes to to setting a boundary, I. For me, and what I've seen to be more effective is to be like, okay, if this happens, if, if you breach our agreement of no pornography in our relationship, if that's your agreement, then I'm going to need some space to process. My feelings and what that space looks like is I'm gonna need like 24 hours and maybe a trip to the temple and[00:17:00]
Rachel: Right,
Crishelle: like some chocolate, I don't know, before we can even have another conversation about it.
Rachel: Yeah, because I think along with this, with this initial conversation where, you know, he's being honest about where he's at with his struggle with pornography, it's now her turn to be honest with herself, but also with him. So really it's saying, okay, I'm understanding that there, it's likely that this is gonna show up in my relationship.
Like if that's monthly, yearly, or what, or whatever it is, it's likely this is gonna show up. Am I at a place right now where I feel like I. I can regulate around that because if the answer to that is no, and this is so triggering to me that I completely lose myself and I start to behave in a way that I do not respect, then I may not be ready for a relationship with somebody who struggles with pornography
Crishelle: Oh
Rachel: and.
Crishelle: How beautiful to have that kind of [00:18:00] honest question to yourself.
Rachel: Yeah. And, and really in the end, actually, it's not about him, it's about, it's about her. It's about her saying, I'm not ready. Like I, I hope to have a goal to, to work around this so that I can be regulated enough that a future partner could tell me that they're struggling. And or I have tools in my back pocket of helping me regulate when I'm dysregulated that I feel confident that I'm not going to just, like, completely lose it when, when a disclosure happens.
I think that's the absolute kindest thing that a couple could do for each other.
Crishelle: Hey listener. If you missed the previous episode with Chandler Rogers, you definitely need to go back and listen to it. And the episode Chandler shares, how he finally found the courage to break free of the isolation that kept him trapped in his pornography habit.
With the help of his accountability group, he was able to make lasting change. He then created really a group recovery program to [00:19:00] help you quit porn by making it easier to have effective accountability. Self care tools and meaningful connection with your support group. Anytime you need it right on your phone.
Definitely go on. Listen to my episode with Chandler. Or use the link in the show notes to try really out for yourself. So you don't have to go at this alone anymore.
Rachel: If someone's saying I have struggled or I am struggling with pornography, and then saying, okay, but we together as a couple decide that there's gonna be no pornography in this relationship, I think that we're setting ourselves up a little bit for failure.
Just because that's history has shown us that's probably not what's gonna happen. And by that I just mean like he could say, yeah, I've been in. Lots of relationships with other women who've also told me that they don't want me to struggle with this, and I still do. And so it's likely I'm going to here.
So history is showing me that I am likely still gonna struggle in this relationship with pornography. Again, it's getting better. I'm working on it. I'm then, then it's having some level of, [00:20:00] okay, so if I, as the woman hear this, that this is likely gonna be here and I feel like I. Like I feel somewhat confident that I can regulate myself.
Then what is that gonna look like again? And then this is where the boundaries come in. The boundaries come in way before the pornography happens, and it needs to come in at a time that is not already dysregulated. So if he comes in, says, Hey, I had to slip up, and then she sets boundaries again, that is going to be Coming from a, an anxious place and probably quite disconnecting for both people.
So that's why when there are these calm conversations that are happening, and this is where boundaries are being set. So this might be something like, okay, when this happens, we together as a couple would like this to not be part of our relationship.
However, if it does show up, then. What I need and going through this is what I'm gonna need. So I'm gonna need ex And I like your example, like I'm gonna need a little bit of time by [00:21:00] myself to regulate. And so for me, regulation looks like maybe it's talking to a trusted one. Maybe it's journaling, maybe it's going out to go for a hike.
And. Yeah, so I'm going, I'm going to regulate myself. A lot of times when we have this idea like I need space that's more of a consequence than it is a boundary. Because when we're just saying, I need space, but I'm not doing anything in the meantime I'm just gonna let you stew in what you did and you can come back to me and apologize.
There's absolutely no growth for either person really in that. So when the boundary is set, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take some space because one, I can't control you, so I can't make you gimme space. So I'm gonna take some space and I'm going to regulate so that I can come back and we can talk about how we can do better.
What I'm, you know, maybe own up to my stuff of like, wow, I, I snapped at you after you told me. And I'm really not proud of that because I [00:22:00] don't believe that. Anyone deserves. Like, I just, I don't respect that in myself. I don't respect unkindness. And so I, you know, I apologize for the way that I responded when you told me.
And that was really hard for me to hear, and I'm feeling very disappointed because that was something we talked about we didn't want in our relationship. So does, does that make sense? Like,
Crishelle: Yeah, and, and I love that you brought up the example because. Your emotions are valid, like, and I think, I think it's very important that we're not trying to tell the partner who's maybe not in the struggle with pornography, that your reaction is totally valid. Like the feelings that you're gonna feel totally valid.
And yes, you're probably gonna be really frustrated and hurt and discouraged and, and disappointed and fill in the blank. When, when and if this happens. Right. And, and I think that's true of any disagreement or any breach of any agreement in a relationship. Right. But [00:23:00] especially this one, because it is so charged and often connected to like our core and our hearts and our love and our insecurities.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Crishelle: And so I I love that you brought up that. You can, you can own like, Hey, I reacted in a way I didn't like and I feel really hurt and sad and disappointed at how can we together move to moving better? I think that that is such a beneficial thing because you owned where you are, you owned what maybe you wanna change, but then you're working together for a better future.
Rachel: Absolutely. Well, and, and with that, I think that there's, there is a lot of power in the ownership of being, like, even to take a step further if I'm, if I'm her of saying like, I don't like the way I snapped at you. I, [00:24:00] I think I did that because this really taps at a very vulnerable part of me, a part that is afraid I'm not good enough for this relationship, or a part of me that is worried you don't find me desirable or is worried, you know, whatever it may be.
And so this is a particularly touchy subject for me. And so I, that's my stuff. That's, that exists way before I met you. But that's my stuff. And your choices have an impact on our relationship. So I think there, there's just a lot of power in owning both, both people owning, you know, cuz then he can come in and say like, absolutely, you know, I I don't really like that you did snap.
I understand that you did. But I felt like it was particularly unkind to something that I felt was very vulnerable to share. And so I, you know, in the future I would, I would appreciate it if it wasn't responded with such unkindness. And I, I get it. Like the, [00:25:00] my, my, my struggle with this predates you and and like, you know, him explaining more about where that comes from, from him, or I feel like I'm immature in my development, sexual with my sexuality, and that's what draws me to pornography.
I need to grow up around this, right? So like that type of ownership on both parts is going to be tremendously connecting for the relationship.
Crishelle: Yeah, I, I mean, even as you just describing this relationship or this conversation, I'm like, wow, like I can just picture the couple I. Embracing even as they're like seeing these, these vulnerable, sensitive. Honest parts of each other and how at the end of the conversation they, they probably won't have a perfect solution.
In fact, that was one of my thoughts. Probably you're not gonna walk away feeling like it's fixed, but I think you will walk away if you can [00:26:00] get to this honesty you're gonna walk away from the conversation, hand in hand, likely, and, and maybe not literally hand in hand, but, but feeling.
So much more connected than you would be if it was just like, oh, well here's your consequence. We are taking a break for like three weeks. You know, or whatever,
you know?
Rachel: right, right.
Crishelle: So go ahead.
Rachel: Well, and I was gonna say, I mean, that may be like the example you just gave may be a boundary that needs to be set of like, Like, we're really breaching trust here. You know? Like, it's like an example like that maybe, like maybe you have this agreement that he will then come share with her when he has looked at pornography and let's say that she finds out he hasn't been for her to say, like, one, I do not like, I respect myself enough to not be in a relationship where someone is going to treat me this way.
So I need some space to think about this. Like, I think [00:27:00] that's very fair and very valid. Again, it's not a punishment, but it, but it's just saying like, is it's taking that time to be very active about what is it that I need also like what is it that I need to grow? Maybe it's maybe my growth here is to have a level of respect for myself to say, like, I, I just I will not tolerate dishonesty and, and, and that has been breached and so therefore, you know, or whatever it looks like.
So again, it's not about like what is the boundary or what is not the boundary. Going back to the beginning, it is, why is that being said? What's happening, what the boundary is in action.
Crishelle: Interesting. I feel like the more and more we talk about boundaries, it's really coming to an agreement of what are the values that, that you as an individual value in, in relationship with other, like your relational values Also as a couple, and if those are being breached and those aren't being honored, then. [00:28:00] You are gonna know what to do in order to move forward. Right. A as you were talking about this, I, I just had this like flashback to a younger me who was in a relationship with a guy who who was struggling. And I, I remember being devastated that our relationship was ending because I was like, man, Of anyone, like, I should be the one who could handle this.
But really, I was like, you know what? I can't, I can't handle where he's at right now. And I realized it was the most freeing thing that I could do for both of us
was to break up and it was the most kind thing. Even though it didn't feel kind and it was like a part of me didn't want to, right? Because I was like, no, like we can, I was like, no.
Like honestly, I can't handle it and I don't think he can handle it either. Currently,
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: and that relationship ended and it was hard, but I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that I was honest with [00:29:00] myself and, and because it, I mean, I think it saved both of us a lot of pain moving forward. And it is interesting because had, had, we had this conversation like, had I like talked to you about this, I probably wouldn't have been like, oh, that was me setting a boundary.
No, I, that was me just like being honest and taking action on what felt right
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Crishelle: and, and doing what needed. What was right by like me and by him, you know? And, and I think that that was maybe like, maybe an example of setting a boundary of just being like, you know what? This isn't working.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Crishelle: And, and we both need something different.
And again, that was in, that was in like a dating relationship. It would probably look different in a marriage relationship, right.
Rachel: I mean, there's a, there's a, a level of commitment there, so I, I, you know, definitely I, I. [00:30:00] I think what is really important for especially so, so when there's like, there's like two parts of a relationship around pornography. There's the person that's struggling and to that struggle, it really speaks to a level of extreme immaturity around.
Relationships to themselves to probably like their own emotionality or relationship with their sexuality. Like honestly, pornography is understandable because we don't pressure Ourselves as a culture to grow up sexually or to, to really mature into our sexual development. And so it makes sense that a lot of us stay stuck in a very immature relationship with it, which often shows up as pornography, especially for men.
So really that's what's happening for him, is it, [00:31:00] it's just he just kind of needs to grow up, but on the other end and, and by grow up, I just mean like, Really to develop, you know, to develop relationships with himself and with and with other people. And anyway, so on the other end though, with a person's, particularly a woman who can get really reactive around pornography, it's, it's also just important for her to do some work around this because when we're coming place of pornography Yeah, from a place of, well, this is threatening to me as, as in the way of, if he's looking at pornography deep down, I believe it's because I'm not desirable or I'm not enough, or he's choosing like, this is at some fault of me because I'm, yeah, I'm not enough.
Then she needs to grow up around that
Crishelle: Hmm.
Rachel: because objectively pornography is not going like porn, pornography is not gonna be. [00:32:00] It's, it's like candy, like, it's not like it's not going to be adding anything to a healthy relationship or to a person, but, but we add such huge meanings from it, especially as women where we see it as threatening to ourselves and our sense of self and our sense of worth.
And when we just flip around and blame it on our partner, then we don't have to look at ourselves. Then we're like put in a place of like, well, he, he's the one that's looking at porn and that, and our culture is not okay. So he's the one at fault when really it's not putting pressure on her to grow around her relationship with herself.
And why is it so activating? Is there a way to have pornography be a little bit less weighted? Maybe a better word is catastrophized in a relationship. Because if she can say, Hey, I know who I am, like whether or not you decide to look at pornography, that is like, I just see it as immature [00:33:00] and I see it as that's on you.
That's not reflection of me. Whew. She's gonna respond a lot differently and be able to handle when he tells her he's struggling with pornography, like, she's probably not gonna like it. And maybe even she say, won't tolerate it because I don't like what it. You know, I don't like what it does to you, or I don't like how you then show up in a relationship or whatever it looks like, but it's not coming out of a place of insecurity in me.
Crishelle: Yeah, that is so beautiful and I think such an interesting. Profound invitation for each of us to look at where are we, what is it that's motivating our actions, and how can I, where do I need to grow up in my motivations and in my core values and in my actions? Like where, where, where is it that I need to take ownership and where is it that I need to? Move and change in a way that [00:34:00] will, will actually help me connect with people as opposed to shift the responsibility or escape.
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Right, right. And unfortunately we like pornography is actually a really re, I hate to say this. I, I probably could say this better, but I'm just gonna say it poorly, but, but pornography can be a really rich opportunity for especially a woman in a partnership to grow for her to say, okay, like, this is exposing a lot of very painful parts of my insecurities.
And I wish this wasn't here because I don't agree with what pornography stands for. I don't find it. Appealing. I think that it's causing a lot of damage in our society. But I'm gonna use this opportunity to pressure myself to grow so that I can see clearly how to move forward in this relationship because then it's not coming from a place of anxiety.
It's coming from a very clear place where I see can say, look what, like, this has nothing to do with me. Your struggle.[00:35:00] But I would like to be with someone who's more grown up around this or has a has a better sense of their relationship with their sexuality, with themselves.
And unfortunately, you're just not quite there. I remember this one guy in particular, the things that he thought were funny were so juvenile to me, where he was showing me videos of cartoons that my brothers watched when we were 12.
He just thought it was super hilarious and so in my mind I was like, this guy's kinda . Stuck in a 12 year old. He just feels really young and immature to me. And so I'm not really interested in that. I would like someone to be where I'm at and my level of maturity around, you know, X, Y, or Z.
And so when it comes to sexuality and, you know, if she's really done the work to accept herself as a sexual being does not have that anxiety around it, then she may be able to like, I think it's very fair for to expect or. Pressure her partner to get to that same space. Just to grow up a little bit and to mature.
Crishelle: I'd even say that her being in that space [00:36:00] will be an invitation for her partner to
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: Right? I feel like that likes attracts, right? There's the old adage of like, make a list of who you want to be with and then become that list, right? I feel like that gets around, but I think there's a lot of truth to that if you do the work personally.
And, and that's what's so empowering about this conversation, is that there's so much you can do no matter which side of the conversation you're on. And the more work that you do on yourself, the better your relationship will be.
Rachel: exactly. Exactly. Because really in the end, when you have two very people who are immature around sex and sexuality, I. She's very anxious about him needing to validate her, that she's desirable. And he's also very anxious because he's anxious about being a sexual being. Like they're both just kinda at the opposite end of anxiety.
So when she really grows up and holds onto a sense of self around that, then she can easier see and pick out. Like I said, I'm not [00:37:00] attracted to the, the immaturity that can come with pornography.
Crishelle: And going back to the, the story that I shared just from my own dating experience, what I felt was really beautiful, and I'm so grateful, is that I, I realized in that relationship that it wasn't what I wanted. And I felt like ultimately I wasn't breaking up with him because of pornography.
I was breaking up with him because pornography was a symptom of like, who he was. And I was like, you know what? This isn't gonna work.
Rachel: Right, right.
Crishelle: and, and I hope that you figure out your life, you know, and I'm gonna go figure out my life. And I did. And I did so much work with a therapist and I did so much work just by myself and, and I became a better person.
And by my next relationship, which just happened to be my husband, I was in such a better place because I had done so. The work and, and continue to do the work. Right?
Rachel: right.
Crishelle: it's not like, oh, sweet, I I met George and we're good.
Rachel: [00:38:00] right.
Crishelle: No, but I think that there's so much, so much to be said about boundaries being a matter of respect or respect for ourselves, a respect for the other person, and it becoming very clear when we, when we get honest about.
How can I respect you and how can you respect me moving forward?
Rachel: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Crishelle: Is there anything else you wanna share about boundaries as maybe we wrap this up?
Rachel: Well, I, I will say that we often talk about how important boundaries are, and I think women in particular, and men and women are really, really struggle to set boundaries. Like, you know, there's this feeling of like, I don't wanna like, yeah, I know it's good, but I don't. Want him to say anything that where he doesn't like me anymore or I don't wanna hurt his feelings or her feelings.
And so recognizing that [00:39:00] the mark of healthy relationships is that there are healthy boundaries because when there are healthy boundaries in place, then to me what I see is just two humans that respect each other and. It, you know, it really is somewhat of teaching someone else how to be in a relationship with you.
Like, these are the things that are really important to me and that I value and I respect myself enough to ask for this, and I expect to be respected that these are honored especially when it comes to, to core values. Not, not values come out of anxiety, but true, true core values. So They're hard. I they're very hard.
And they are crucial for a relationship.
Crishelle: And so worth finding someone so. That you can have this mutual respect that you're talking about. It is so worth it. It's so worth doing the inner work to be able to [00:40:00] have the respect for other people and yourself to be able to hold boundaries like you're describing.
Rachel: exactly.
Crishelle: So worth it. And it, it does, it's hard because it requires, it requires you to be fully engaged and fully present and fully responsible for your actions.
But I think, oh, man, talk about a relationship worth having,
Rachel: Right.
Crishelle: you know, as opposed to just like stay in, stuck and or repeating the past, repeating the relationships that you saw. That maybe you didn't like growing up, and here you are recreating it because you didn't take the time to grow.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. And, I wanna, end with this because I think it's like a good gauge is is well it can be tempting to allow behaviors to play out or play out behaviors on our own and. Be resentful and stay resentful because I think [00:41:00] resentfulness can feel powerful sometimes,
Crishelle: Hmm.
Rachel: but when we show up vulnerably and, and give boundaries, really in the end, it's like, for me, I, I just respect myself more when I don't stay stuck in resentment.
But I speak up and, share what's going on for me and if needs be, Both of us are giving boundaries to each other. I just find that I respect myself more. And so I guess that's a question of I ask myself, is how I'm behaving do I respect? And if the answer to that is no, cause I'm stuck in resentment, then it's time for me to speak up.
Crishelle: Oh, beautifully said. Beautifully said. Listeners, if you've had anything come to mind or maybe your relationship where you're like, man, I want to up my respect in that relationship or, or something that take action on it. Take action on whatever has come to mind, and I promise God will help you as you take action, but also you will find [00:42:00] greater connection on the other side.
You'll find greater love, greater compassion, and greater healing for your yourself as you have courage in taking action. On any any thought or insight or invitation that you have felt today. Thank you so much, Rachel. I am so grateful for this conversation. I think it's such a beautiful one because it felt so much different than boundary conversations of the past.
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I, I hope, I mean, it was a good reminder for me,
Crishelle: Definitely.
Rachel: and my own life.
Crishelle: Yeah, I can think of a couple of things. I'm like, I'm gonna be taking action differently moving forward. Yes, yes. Oh, so agree. Well, thank you so much.
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