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Kelowna has many beautiful public spaces but did you know there’s a 50-acre park in the middle of the city?
Welcome to Kelowna Talks, a podcast presented by the City of Kelowna that explores the "why" behind the decisions that shape your city. Tune in for weekly episodes with host, Bob Evans, Partnerships Office Director with the City of Kelowna, as he welcomes guest subject matter experts to explain the processes and decisions that influence the lives of the citizens.
Kelowna Talks - Episode 9: Among the Stones
Tracey 0:00
We have this massive it's almost 50 acres, a 50 acre historic park in the center of the city. First and foremost it is a cemetery but it's your park as well!
Intro 0:12
Welcome to Kelowna Talks where we explore the why behind the decisions that shape your city. Together, we open the curtain and dig deep into current issues, plans and policies that come out of City Hall. Thanks for joining us as we talk about Kelowna, and the topics that matter to you.
Bob 0:30
Hi everyone, I’m Bob Evans partnership director at the City of Kelowna and host of our Kelowna Talks Podcast. I acknowledge that our community is located on the traditional ancestral unceded territory of the Syilx Okanagan People. Kelowna Memorial Park Cemetery occupies 50 acres next door to the Kelowna Golf and Country Club. It's a beautiful park, but I bet a lot of people don't even know it's there. Note that I call it a park. Well, I'll address that in a little bit. Many people see cemeteries as gloomy places that have little impact on their community. But this couldn't be farther from the truth. Today, we are talking to Tracey Hillis our cemetery manager. Welcome Tracey.
Tracey 1:12
Yeah, thanks for having me, Bob.
Bob 1:14
Tracey, I always like to start these things out with some intimacy on trying to figure out who is Tracy. Just for our audience, I'm really happy to sit across the table from you and start talking about your new role ay the cemetery. Tell us a little bit about yourself. I know you're new to this role and tell us I think what you do when you're not Cemetery Manager?
Tracey 1:40
Yeah, yeah. With all my free time.
Bob 1:43
Yes. All your free time.
Tracey 1:44
I'd say you know, when I'm not working I'm with my family. We have two little kids so not as a plug because I'm in the park services, but we really are just out trying to seek out different parks in the area whether it's the beaches, actual playgrounds for little toddlers or up on the mountain so we're really just trying to get outside and a lot of backyards a lot of outdoor backyard parties with with friends and family.
Bob 2:10
Keep that family busy in our wonderful Okanagan. Okay, so I'm curious. I'm sure everybody's curious. How did you ever get into cemetery management and you know, what appears to be a love for the whole cemetery and the whole business of cemetery?
Tracey 2:27
Yeah, memorials. So I started my career as a landscape architectural tech here in here in the beautiful city of Kelowna, and at a pretty young age, like in my mid 20s, I had an opportunity to kind of do some soul searching and thought, what job would I want? If I could really, if all I was looking for was to kind of feed my soul, like if I'm going to be doing a job for the rest of my life, what would it be and, and it seemed to be it was that I wanted to become a funeral director. And I looked into it and you can apprenticeship for that.
Bob 2:59
How many women at whatever mid 20s think, I'm going to be a funeral director.
Tracey 3:03
Really, it came from, even even before my career started. I'm from a large family in the prairies. So with a large family does come a lot of funerals. And my family was really great at getting together letting everybody be a part of it that really was was a celebration and so I knew how important funerals were and I thought why I could be really good at helping plan it, and so I did that for four years, here in Kelowna as well. And it really was a fulfilling job like almost to the point where it's kind of selfish, like just how good it made you feel each day, but I looked at the work life balance and I also really did love work in my previous role and working in development. So I was fortunate enough to to get on with with the City of Kelowna in 2014. In in the planning departments and and from there with a little plug to the City of Kelowna, where there's there's a lot of job opportunities, in the city, and I was able to work my way up. And yeah, the cemetery manager position came open. And I just thought it was a good fit. It was like....
Bob 4:03
Yeah. Came up and at a great time and the right time, in your career.
Tracey 4:10
Yeah, it really is. And we can kind of get into everything that we do at the cemetery. But it is a mix of landscape architecture, planning, municipal work, and of course, memorial care as well.
Bob 4:20
So how long have you now been in this position?
Tracey 4:23
Since since May of last year.
Bob 4:25
Pretty new, I guess to the position. So let's start with a bit of history around our cemetery in Kelowna. And, you know, typically cemeteries have a deep historical connection to the community and a variety of history that goes hand in hand with memorialization. So, can you help explain that to our listeners, and enlighten us a little bit about the Kelowna Memorial Cemetery?
Tracey 4:46
Yeah, absolutely, cemeteries are such an important part of any community and the cemetery existed before Kelowna became an official city, I think we became a city in 1905, if I'm remembering correctly, and the cemetery where it is now was actually part of a church. And one of the first burials was way back in 1897.
Bob 5:07
And there was a church on that site, I did not know that.
Tracey 5:08
1897 I think was was the first recorded burial in that area. And so yeah, after 1905, and in 1911, this the city took it over. And it's slowly been expanding. And actually, it's the Pioneer section, the pioneer sections are actually close to the back of the cemetery now, because it's slowly grown over over the years. Yeah. And it's almost like each decade, there's been a new section and a new story behind where it expanded that sort of thing. And then of course, with trends changing, the landscape looks different.
Bob 5:42
So let's talk a little bit more about the other cultural groups that are in the cemetery. You were giving me a little bit of a heads up before we had this conversation. And I think it's really interesting story. So share that with our listeners, please.
Tracey 5:54
Yeah, yeah. And and there's a lot more in depth information in our Kelowna museums. And we actually have some historic tours that happen in the cemetery. But the Cliffs Notes version is that the the first burials were with specific cultural groups and religious groups, there's there's Catholic cemeteries throughout Kelowna, and so kind of anybody who else who wasn't Catholic, was was buried in this current location. But with the Pioneer section, there also is what what we refer to now as the Asian pioneer section has, we have we have a lot of roots with with a lot of Chinese and Japanese people that worked here in Kelowna. And it's gorgeous to see how the the Asian culture maintains, the plots nowadays, and kind of their ways of memorializing, and it's really beautiful. But it's, it's also interesting, because there is just the fact that there is a separate Asian section, because back in the day, there was a little bit of discrimination there. As far as we're going to be buried over here. Anyone else can can kind of have a separate areas
Bob 6:54
Interesting. So even back, we'll not even back then, but even in a cemetery, I guess it was thing.
Tracey 6:58
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it shows up even if it's not something that is obvious now, but there, there are two separate areas.
Bob 7:05
So as a springboard to that, how has the cemetery evolved over the years. So From those humble beginnings, to where we're at today, and when I drive to the cemetery now, and again, full disclosure, I was actually involved in some of the cemetery planning, I don't know, 20 years ago, but tell us a little bit more about, you know, how it's evolved. And then we'll get into where you're going.
Tracey 7:26
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I would say, inclusion has the the ability to allow people with different religions, different requirements, as far as burial, cremation, and even different income levels. That's, that's really evolved over the years, there's not just one option anymore, there are multiple options, multiple locations throughout the cemetery to be entered that sort of thing.
Bob 7:49
Right. So it's not just the old headstone section, there's different columbariums. And if people know what that is, and scattering gardens and things like that, can you elaborate on the options?
Tracey 8:00
Yeah, even if you say, Well, I would like to be buried in a casket. Well, at our cemetery, you have the option? Do you want to be buried in ground? Or do you want to have an above ground kind of mausolea, which is the coulomb barrier that you're talking about. And even down to do you and your family want to have a flat headstone or more of an upright headstone. Because there's, there's a different look. And there's a different style to that, as well as there's a different cost to that as well.
Bob 8:24
Okay, that's great. So this is probably getting a little bit more what I'm interested in is where you're going. So, you know, I refer to it as a park and I understand you're trying to, or you're not maybe trying to, you're working towards the public understanding of what the cemetery park could be, and where it can go, and how it could maybe be a little bit more involved in everyday life rather than just as a end of life scenario. So can you tell me a little bit about that?
Tracey 8:51
Yeah, absolutely. It's something that I think just people just need to be educated on we have This massive it's almost 50 acres, a 50 acre Historic Park in the center of the city. Right. And, and it is a park. Yes, yes, for sure we're providing a service. And first and foremost, it is a cemetery. But for most of citizens, for all citizens, it's your park as well. Right? And so there are, there's flora and fauna, we have a really diverse amount of trees and plants that grow birds, that sort of thing. As well as just over the 50 acres, there's a lot of different landscape, there's a lot of open, sunny areas, there's a lot of shade areas, we have over three and a half kilometers of roads, summer gravel summer paved, and we have about a half kilometer of mountain trail developed so far. So it's something that you don't need to, and some people don't know this, you don't need to have a reason to come to our cemetery, you don't need to have someone that's buried there. You don't need to be attending a service. What's different than a typical park is when you come there, if there is a funeral service going on, you're giving the space and the characters to that family. Yeah, you're being respectful, but you're still able to be there. And of course, because it is such a big park there, there's lots and lots of room for you to be. And so the idea is, is that first and foremost, people know we exist, you do have a cemetery in your city. It's a historic park. And you are welcome. Welcome to it.
Bob 10:23
So we're not talking playgrounds and baseball fields, but we're talking about, you want people to come to Memorial Park, and recreate just like any other park. So bring the kids, walk around. And has that been successful? Do people use it? Is it just starting off? I'm just having, you know, trying to visualize people using that as a park.
Tracey 10:45
I can tell you that the people that use it are regulars. So yeah, absolutely, that people that are coming for their morning walks, weekly walks, we have people, groups of people that come that do their rounds, and they are saying hello, and paying their respects to different people, different family members and friends that are buried. But we like those that come regularly. They love it.
Bob 11:08
It's good. That's okay. So let me ask you this, you know, and, you know, the listeners can't see Tracey, but she has a huge smile on her face. So she's excited about this, and are you going to program this am I gonna be able to, you know, come up and have you know, whatever, like some sort of sponsored function, or help me understand what that is gonna roll out like.
Tracey 11:30
So the idea is, is first and foremost is to get people up here, lots of passive activities, so walking, running, teaching your children and grandchildren to ride bikes, but we are also hoping to get a few more park activities in you know, whether it's things like movie night in the park, whether there are some options to enhance some of our trails,
Bob 11:49
Hold on, I'm gonna, I'm gonna wind that back, movie night in the cemetery? What would that look like and you think people would actually feel comfortable doing that and want to come?
Tracey 12:01
Well, I think like, like a lot of things that maybe the first time there's there's not a big crowd. But then word of mouth comes out that you're in the center of the city, you're not driving very far, depending on where you live. We have beautiful, beautiful lawn areas, and including areas that are not on top of graves and headstones. And when you're at just about any location in the park, there is a view, there's a view of, of the entire city really down to the lake in some areas. So the only thing that's blocking your view from being 360 is actually the Dillworth cliffs. So imagine if anybody's been to the Enderby drive-in, there's a beautiful, beautiful backdrop back there. And it's kind of the same thing if we have a movie night in the park in a cemetery. Yes, there's the family movie that you're watching with your children, but there's also the whole cityscape in the background, which again can also be enjoyed on an evening walk.
Bob 12:53
I'm in, you know, you call me up and I will try to to bring my family to that and I'll bend in and give it a try. I'll give that a try. So can we talk a little bit about again, where you're going in terms of the actual operations of the cemetery, you know, words that I'm familiar with, a little bit, green burial, things like that and just, you know, what does that mean and what's the evolution of how people are inturned if you still use that term.
Tracey 13:20
Yeah, inturned is the official word for being buried or being placed in a nice green burial is something that that we are moving towards. And again, citizens of Kelowna, were really fortunate that this is a municipal cemetery. And so being part of the City of Kelowna, looking at things like being sustainable, being climate conscious, as well as economically conscious and resilient are all part of our future cemetery plans as well. So there's, there's kind of two parts to a green burial there's there's no means different things to different people, but ultimately It's putting a little bit less stress on the environment and thinking long term, right? What is going to be long term as far as maintenance as far as giving back to the environment, almost leaving the plot a little bit better than when you found it right or a little bit better than our current standard. So the two parts are things that a family can do. So there's things like what type of casket you're selecting? Is it? Is it steel? is the wood sustainably harvested? Or is it local? Right? So there's, there's kind of things that a family would do.
Bob 14:28
Cardboard, or is it something that..
Tracey 14:31
Yeah. And, and I mean, there's, there's different things, things take time. So there, there definitely are ways to slowly move towards a little bit more sustainable at a time, but then there's things that a family can do, but then there's also things that the cemetery provider can can do. And, we've already taken quite a few steps to, as far as a sustainability or water use, we're redoing the entire irrigation system. As you can imagine, expanding the cemetery, since 1911, there's, there's different components, different older systems, so the the entire cemetery is getting a new irrigation system, that's really going to look at reducing the amount of water being a lot more efficient. And then with that, we're looking to look at some of our species that we have in a cemetery that require less water, right, we're still looking to protect a lot of, a lot of the trees that we have, because that's important to have to have that that the tree canopy in this in the center of the city, but the cemetery is also just like any park, a good good carbon sink as well.
Bob 15:29
Sorry, yeah, you mentioned biodiversity and songbirds and pollination and all the great things that come with with a large 50 acre park, so it's great to see we're going that way. I want to change gears a little bit to how we're, you know, I talked about it's not a business, but for us to be business-like as the city with a cemetery. And to let everybody know, there's something that I'm familiar with, which is called the perpetual care fund. So how are we doing? Like how, you know, how sustainable is a cemetery from from a taxpayer perspective? And is it self-funding? And can you give us a little bit of background on the the business case to be made for the cemetery?
Tracey 16:07
Absolutely, because it is a service that the city is providing its citizens. And same thing that's come a long way, since we started it, it did used to be something that like a lot of municipalities in North America was subsidized by the tax base. But starting in the 90s, there was a vision to change that and make sure that it was something that was self-sufficient, and self-funding, and we absolutely, today where we are fully self-funded, there's no tax base that goes into the municipal cemetery operations. And as well as like any cemetery, in Canada, maybe even North America, you need to make sure that that you have a care fund because someday, even though there's been a lot of innovation, and there's a lot of opportunities to reuse, some of the vacant lands and a lot of the trends need a lot less land, cemeteries are lasting a little bit longer, and there's ways to kind of be be innovative, but someday the cemetery will will close and you need to make sure that you can care for it as a park in perpetuity, really for eternity. So we we along with the federal provincial and our own municipal regulations have had a substantial fund to to ensure that we're able to care for it as well as self-fund any new development. So, I think it's important for people to know that this is something that is not using tax dollars, but is available for everyone to to use.
Bob 17:33
Yeah, it's an amazing facility in our city, and it's financially sound and it's, it has great recreational potential. I'm picking those things up. So I understand you may hear some lighthearted stories about families and their loved ones. Maybe this is a bit sensitive, but can you share any stories about some of the, some of the happenings at the cemetery on a daily basis that just gives a little bit of, you know, one on one narrative connection with the cemetery?
Tracey 17:58
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I will just start this by saying that this is the majority of the cases. If somebody has lost someone who was young, then that's a different story and not as as like you were saying light-hearted. But even even then, you're able to find some some pretty beautiful moments at a cemetery. But you know, on a really high level, we have families that come in and and they want to say, they want to show us that okay, that we put John in his old tackle box for cremation. And that's absolutely something that you can do if you're being being buried. You have the option of really personalizing. It comes down to, and people want to share, they want to share it, they come tell us, or we're out and they... Yeah, they kind of want to know, they want to let people know how special their loved one was. And so of course, yeah, they'll come by and say, here's some extra egg salad sandwiches with with five pickles on each sandwich. This is what we had to do. And they'll offer them to us and, and again, just the people that come regularly, like every Tuesday there's there's two lovely women that make their rounds. There's a group of women that do a hike and in the winter time they're doing a snowshoe to make their rounds and yeah, it always brings a smile to our face to find out what what somebody is going to place their their cremated remains in if they're being buried, because there's so many ways to personalize, or on headstones, you know, a family came by and said, did you notice, did you notice the what's going on in the background here and layers, like a dog tugging at someone's clothes or something like that in a granite headstone? And you can do that, you have the option to memorialize them in a really custom way.
Bob 19:43
Well, it's nice to hear. And it's certainly not not something to be taken lightly. Because there's a whole range there, obviously, very serious to the light hearted, obviously. And it's just nice to hear that we can have that conversation now. Because there's been so much, I guess, I don't know what the, you know, I'm trying to pick a respectful word... I can't so, "baggage" around how we think about death in our society and in North America and in Canada. And it's always been a difficult topic. And obviously, if you're around it like you on a daily basis, it's probably a little bit easier to talk about. But it's great that we have those options. And now we're looking at attracting more people to the park. So Tracey, we're towards the end of our time here. Is there anything that that I've missed to ask you? Is there any, I guess key things you'd like to get across to our listeners about your park? Our park?
Tracey 20:34
Yeah, yeah, your part listeners. Um, I would say I'd like everybody to know that there are so many options, right? So whether you would like to be buried in a casket, whether you're going to be cremated, there's even options for for cremation, you could be buried in the ground, there's above ground niches kind of like little, little above ground alcoves, as well as scattering. A lot of people would like to, would like to scatter and this is a park, a mountain setting, or even there's even a garden scattering option that will be forever, there's never going to be a development on it. You can come seven days a week to it, that sort of thing. And you can also have, even if you are scattering, you can have a plaque and memorialize your loved one as well. So there are a lot of options. And I would also say at a really high level just like you were talking about, there's you know, a lot of what ifs, it's hard to come up with a word for how people feel, is just talk about this right? Like the hardest parts that I've seen both as a funeral director and, and as the cemetery manager, are families trying to guess what options their mom or dad or grandparents, their loved ones, what they would have wanted. So just, and it doesn't need to be in any official will. It's just a conversation to have to talk about as well as coming up and showing showing your family the cemetery and the different options. That's a good way to start the conversation. Doesn't that look nice? That sort of thing.
Bob 22:05
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, that's great. So people can come and see Tracey at the park and I'm looking forward to movie nights, and a respectful movie night I take it, and lawn chairs and little bit of popcorn maybe and please call me, please call Tracey. Well, don't call me about the cemetery call Tracey but the cemetery. Tracey, call me about the movie night and thank you so much. It's been wonderful to have you and have this conversation about the future of Kelowna Memorial Park Cemetery. So thank you, Tracey.
Tracey 22:30
Thank you for having me. Thanks, Bob.
Bob 22:32
Okay, thanks.
Outro 23:35
Thank you for listening to this episode of Kelowna Talks. For more conversations about topics that matter in your community, subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts. If you liked what you heard, give us a five star rating and review and share Kelowna Talks with your friends and neighbors. For more information about this podcast and other big community conversations, visit kelowna.ca/communitystories