The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown

This week on The Debrief Podcast, Matthew Stephen Brown sits down with Pastor Fredo Ramos for an honest, thoughtful conversation about theology.
Drawing from years of pastoral experience, Pastor Fredo shares insight into the kinds of struggles, doubts, and tensions many people wrestle with—especially when it comes to end times, or the afterlife. Together, they explore how to navigate uncertainty, challenge long-held assumptions on entertainment, and how to pursue a faith that is both grounded and genuine.

What is The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown?

Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.

Celeste Contreras:

Welcome to the Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown, where we take your real questions about faith, the bible, and culture, and give you honest practical advice you can trust. We're glad you're here. Now let's get into today's episode.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Hey, guys. Welcome to Debrief. We have a fantastic guest today. He's not really a guest.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

You know, I'm kind of.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Well, I mean, are you? You work here.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. I work here. Yeah. So Mandatory guest.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He had to come today because he gets paid. No. This is pastor Fredo Ramos, the worst interviewer of anyone I've ever interviewed for a job without a doubt.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

This is true.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Literally looked like he drank just a pint of just lemon juice when I was trying to offer him a job. What was going through your mind?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Well, first, I thought we were going to have like a debate about the Bible because I was teaching Madison at the time. Okay.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. Yeah.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

And I was her Bible teacher. So I thought maybe Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. I was Yeah. Gonna come at

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. So and I was about a year into that church plant. And so I just it wasn't even on my radar that I would be offered a job at a church like Sam's.

Pastor Matt Brown:

By the way, Josh Thompson, what's the name of his church?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Legacy City Church.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Which you helped plant. Mhmm. He just went up to Kelly Slater's surf camp and caught some waves. So shout out to Josh Thompson. I saw that on Instagram.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Still catching him, He was

Pastor Matt Brown:

pulling in. It's a man made barrel, it's still Josh. I gotta give it to you. I love that guy. That goes all the way back to my Harvest Christian fellowship days.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Mhmm.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I love that But yeah, you helped plant a church with him, then you were a Bible teacher at

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Woodcrest Christian High School.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Woodcrest Christian and then I interviewed you at Starbucks and you were awful, but I hired you anyways. And it's a good thing, dude. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta work on your look.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I got look at he's got a great smile. Like, if you're listening to the car do. He's literally so handsome, and he he just looked like like was just

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

I was stunned. I was legit. Not ready

Pastor Matt Brown:

for Madison told me, she said my Bible teacher's awesome. You should hire him. That's how you came on my radar. Wow. And so and you are awesome.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And you're

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

a

Pastor Matt Brown:

teaching pastor now at Sandals Church. You're actually our only teaching pastor at Sandals Church. So it's awesome. We have other people that teach, but it's kinda his role, his gig. And if you don't know, Fredo does most of the work in terms of developing our series, helping me stay on pace to get through Matthew, and I keep pushing it back.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So he he's real organized to keep us done in the year, and I keep pushing him to revamp the schedule. And you've been so great gracious, and but he does give me all the hard passages.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

I do. It's very intentional.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. Like literally this passage you gave me this week, people are going to hell. I'm like, thanks again, Fredo. You know, you gave you gave Andrew McCourt the bags of gold. I get, you're going to hell.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So thank you very much for that. But tell us about you for those who don't know because some people maybe just listen to Debrief don't watch Sounds Church. You're married how long?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Ashley and I have been married going on fifteen years since December. So I'm born and raised here in Riverside, California. And yeah, I came to the Lord and I was 21 years old through a wild series of events. My best friend became a Christian.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

I was mildly depressed. Ashley, my wife now, was praying for me back then and so it was just a convergence of all these things.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Did she go to harvest?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

She did. Yeah. Okay.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So we both married harvest girls.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

We did. Yes. There's something

Pastor Matt Brown:

in sandalides baby. Come on. Did. Greg Laurie's crying somewhere right now.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. But she got saved at a at a camp radically, I think in high school. She was at Arlington High School. She started a Bible study on campus.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yes.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

She She a sophomore. Mhmm. And was, yeah, leading girls to faith and

Pastor Matt Brown:

That's one of the things one of the things I think, you know, I think Greg Laurie gets a lot of attention obviously for the crusades and just the souls that he wins. But one of the things that Harvest did so well, I don't know about now because I don't go there now, but when you and I were there is they produce soul winners like

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

They do. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

People that went to Harvest evangelize. I mean, you remember we'd go to the mall, you'd run into somebody talking about Jesus. And so I loved that's one of my favorite things that I think Harvest doesn't get a lot of credit for that's so fantastic is they produce people that wanna see souls won. And, you know, you and I, know, we're never gonna be Greg Glory. And what I loved about their church is people didn't care about it's what pastor Andrew talked about.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So maybe Greg Glory got 20 bags of gold, right, in terms of evangelism. People at Harvest, maybe they got a half a bag, but they still took that to the mall. They took it to the streets. They took it to the beach. And I I love that.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And I'm I'm grateful for that and grateful for the legacy of Harvest Christian Fellowship. You got saved there. That's where I gave my life to Christ. You met your wife there. I met my wife there.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And again, guys, we're all one church. It's important that we support each other. The devil is always in us attacking other churches and we need to be very, very careful. Even if we have some slight theological differences, and we're gonna talk about some differences today that we might have with Harvest Christian Fellowship, but there's still the church, God's still there, it's his church, we love them. And these issues we're gonna talk about in Debrief are open handed questions.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And I'm grateful to Mark Driscoll for that. And I don't agree with him on a lot, but that he was the first one to say closed fist issues, open hand issues. And that's so important if you're a new Christian, because you're gonna find that not everybody believes the same thing about everything. And so there are closed hand issues. So what are those real quick?

Pastor Matt Brown:

There's no other way to be saved other than faith through Christ. You're saved by grace and grace alone. The Bible is the word of God. What else?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

The deity of Jesus.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. The deity of Jesus. I didn't say that. See? Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

There we go. He's helping me out right there. So Jesus Christ is God. You know, the Trinitarian doctrine, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, and everything outside of that, it's strong opinions, good people, but they disagree. And so some of these questions today are in times.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And you and I were both raised theologically kind of in the genre that this gal's asking, and we both left in different directions for different things. And and just so you know, Fredo and I don't, you know, agree a 100% on everything, but we love the Lord, we love each other, we love this church, and we believe that Jesus changes lives. And so that's what's so important today is that we have grace for slight differences. You know, Fredo was like, don't believe the Bible's the word of God. Did you see that poor pastor from Oakland?

Pastor Matt Brown:

No. Oh, it's so bad. She's all over the news saying that we need a third testament. I'm like, no, we don't.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Wow. I'm like, sister. No, we don't. Let's just reread

Pastor Matt Brown:

the second one. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. It's good.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So how many kids you got?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Two kids.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Two kids, one and a girl. Mean, I know these things, but people need to know this.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Eli's twelve, sixth grader, about to become a middle schooler next So Lord have Lord have mercy. And then, yeah, my sweet girl, Ella, eight years old. She just got baptized two weekends ago at Sandals Church Woodcrest.

Pastor Matt Brown:

She's so sweet.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. She's had she's had a heart for Jesus for a long time. So

Pastor Matt Brown:

So you've been on staff how long?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

A little over a decade. Mhmm.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Twenty fifteen. Years of your life.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Best years. Yes. Best years. This is the longest church, a long time I've been at a church.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Really?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Okay. How long were you at Harvest?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Roughly six ish years.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Okay. Then you got from there were at a church when you were at seminary. What was that church?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

That was Sojourn Community Church.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. I've been there. Great church.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Amazing church. Amazing church. Yeah. And then I came back when I started teaching at Woodcrest, back to Harvest for a little bit, and then we launched in Planet Legacy.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. And then about a year and

Pastor Matt Brown:

Sorry. You. Josh, I love you. Yeah. I love you.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

It was a rich time though, because I think for so long I idolized being a pastor in a city and I thought LA would be that rather than just like loving the calling of a pastor if that makes sense,

Pastor Matt Brown:

you know.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

So I think I had to come to grips with, oh, yeah. Think I'm making an idol out of church planning rather than just enjoying the rich life of pastoring people,

Pastor Matt Brown:

you know,

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

and so

Pastor Matt Brown:

I mean, but I would agree with you. Like, I don't know that, like, could start a church in Manhattan. I think you could. I don't know that I could start a church in maybe LA, I could. But but like Chicago, I could.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You have more of an urban flavor to your style, to your personality, to your presentation, you know. And I'm like, you know, I'm driving a truck kinda bastard. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, so I I would say that, you know, I certainly believe that you could do that. But I think that you've added value to sandals.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I think that you complement your giftedness complements some of the things that I lack in my style and I appreciate that about you. Thanks.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. I love love to hear, man. It's been eleven rich years. So and Ashley should get the credit because she was the one that was like, we need to be at Sandals. So I regularly think about it wasn't the church that I necessarily wanted at first, but it was the church I needed.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

And yeah, coming under your care and leadership and embracing a vision of authenticity

Pastor Matt Brown:

I know.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Was so needed in my life

Pastor Matt Brown:

at this

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

like, time. I'm so Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Okay. Let's talk about something that you and I and because there's a lot of pastors that listen and there's a there's a lot of a lot of churches won't have a guy as talented as you are on staff because they're intimidated. They want everybody to think they're awesome. Talk about from the backseat, the conversations that no one has about you and I. And so like, you know, like when you'll preach, I'll text you.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. You know, sometimes, hey, improve this, but a lot of times, home run, way to go. We have a very unique relationship. Just talk about that, because I think there's a lot of guys that wanna preach, and maybe they need a situation like Sandals, where there's an older guy that will give them opportunity. So maybe talk about that.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Because we we talk a lot behind the scenes in many ways, in a way that me and no other staff members do. So what is that like not being the top guy, being the number two teacher, but but being but being allowed to be you. So

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Man, the first word that comes to mind is very empowering. And by that I mean, I have rarely met a lead pastor like you who is so open to share the space for teaching. Like so behind the scenes, I have felt so much empowerment from you in conversations on, yeah, go this way, change this, make this tweak, you know. You've been very direct to which I think is amazing. Know?

Pastor Matt Brown:

I don't want you to lay an egg in front of people.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So Which you don't because you're dynamic.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. But your directness is very also empowering and freeing because you need to be told like, this is not working or try this or how about this, you know. And so that has like, yeah, really set me free in a ton of ways. And you've also said repeatedly, just be yourself. Yes.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Because we are very different people.

Pastor Matt Brown:

We're very

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

different. Even though when I'm at a Dodgers game, we're like, that's probably you preaching Oh my gosh. At a Dodgers game.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He I come alive. Literally turns into Matt Brown at a game.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. And I turn it in Fredo. I get a little spicy. Yeah. I start chirping a little bit, you know.

Pastor Matt Brown:

A little spicy. Yeah. Yeah. I want you to take your sandals gear off.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. No. So we're very different. And I think

Pastor Matt Brown:

that's But here's the thing that I think is beautiful about a relationship is I think that's important. It gives our church gears and it gives them perspectives. And I think that's important. You're younger than I am. You're not a white dude.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I know you're half white, but

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. You look Hispanic to me, which I mean, that's half of who you are. Our church is 60% English speaking Hispanic. I think that's important. For the same reason we have Melody speak, I think that diversity on the platform is really important to speak to the diverse nature of the church.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And I think that that's really important and it needs to be good. You've seen me criticize some of our speakers. And I think the thing that's unique about you and I is, you know, I'm not trying to be harsh. I want the very best out

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

of you. Exactly. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And that's why it works. So if I was a young guy today, I would not advise any young guy to go plant a church immediately because you're just not ready yet. So find a relationship, find a church where there's a Matt Brown, somebody like me, but that's gonna let you be you, but coach you and direct you. And I don't try to change you. Like every single week, you have people stand up.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I never do that. But I want you to be you. And that's actually out of sojourn, right? That's where Yeah. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Mean, because you didn't get that at harvest. But think it's beautiful. And what I want people to see is we get so addicted to the way we do it. And it's like, we have to fight so hard against routine. Because we think the Holy Spirit's in the routine and it's no, no, no.

Pastor Matt Brown:

The routine is supposed to help us be attentive to the Holy Spirit. But we end up worshiping the wrong thing. And so I I love that that diversity, not just of, you know, your cultural heritage, your background, but your style.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

And

Pastor Matt Brown:

I want you to be you, not Matt Brown Junior. And I think that's so healthy for our church. So I love you. We've had we've had tough conversations. You've you know, said things where me and I'm like, hey, I didn't like this or, you know, we've had challenging conversations, especially during like the 2122 era where, I mean, we couldn't get a win to save our lives.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I don't just mean you. I mean, me. I mean, everybody was like, you're woke, you're MAGA. I mean, it's like, well, I just wanna be Jesus. And and that was, man, that was I mean, you were you're a what are you?

Pastor Matt Brown:

40 now? Just from 40. Yeah. From 40. So you're officially old.

Pastor Matt Brown:

That was the just so you know, I've been here. It'll be thirty years next year. That was the toughest two or three years of my life. Yeah. Was challenging.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I good friends get up and leave telling me I've changed. I'm like, no. No. No. Culture's changed.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. I'm the still still the same guy that wants to reach culture and, you know, good godly people fleeing California because they're worried about their families. I'm like, what what about my family? Yeah. Like, I'm I'm on the front lines, I'm on the battlefield.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Those those were tough seasons and trying to coach you as a young pastor how to say things, who to push. And we've, you know, we've to we've had to balance that, you know. You can push our Latino community farther than I can. You gotta let me talk to the old, crotchety white people. You know, it's like, hey, brothers.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You know? And we and we have to we have to work on that together

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Because people don't hear what we say. They hear what they're afraid we're saying. Mhmm. It's crazy.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

It's very true.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Which, you know, we're both married. Half Tammy and I's fights are not on what I said. It's what she's afraid I'm saying or feeling. Yeah. It's not even like, no.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Where did you get that? Yeah. So but that's just our culture. So I I just want you guys to know Fredo's a special guy. We're very blessed to have him at Sandals Church, and I lean on him a lot.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He's he's very wise. Love you, your mom, your dad. We've prayed together through, man, health crisis with your mom and with your dad. Yeah. Taking care of aging parents is not easy.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. It's a challenge.

Pastor Matt Brown:

But we get to do it in community. And that's why we need friendships like this. And and I love your parents, and I love when I get to see your mom and dad just glow when they get to watch you do what you do. It's just it's just pretty cool. You know, they're pretty proud of of of their boy.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So I love you. Anything you wanna add to that?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Man, honestly, just that I I would just double down, and I I oftentimes will text you, like, thank you for your authenticity and your integrity. One of my best memories of you is we we were meeting in my old office at Palm Avenue prepping the Galatians series a few years And before we started prep, you just confessed sin

Pastor Matt Brown:

right Yeah. Yeah.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

You're like, come back from the gym. I just got this on my mind. I gotta confess. Yeah. It was beautiful.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Me, you, I think pastor Adam Match was in the room. And then, like, so you've just modeled healthy confession and integrity Yeah. In a way that's, yeah, so empowering and

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. I actually am I

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

love I love to be around I that really do.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. Really do. My my next book that I'm I'm working on is The Sound of Happiness and it's all about hearing God's voice. And one of the lines I wrote as I was working my chapter, you guys get a sneak peek to this, is that sexual sensuality, in all of its forms when it's sin, silences the voice of God in our lives. Wow.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So when so when you and I are sitting down and we're gonna we're gonna read God's word and we're gonna prepare to deliver it, if I need to hear from God, I better be sexually right. Like, it just, you know we're gonna talk about Thessalonians today, and it's weird that that was one of the questions that came up. But here's one of the verses. So this is my new bible. I had to get large print.

Pastor Matt Brown:

That font. Don't make fun. I know it's like 27

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

You can definitely hear God with that font.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And I hear God. You can see God in this font. But Paul says this, you know, we're gonna talk about end times rapture because that's what Thessalonians, I guess not unfortunately, but it is known for. Every book kinda has what it's known for. But he says this, he says, for this is God's will for your sanctification, that's the process of becoming like him, becoming holy, that you keep away from sexual immorality, that each of you know how to control his own body in holiness and in honor, not with lustful passions like the Gentiles who do not know God.

Pastor Matt Brown:

This means one must not transgress that sin and take advantage of a brother or a sister in this manner. I actually think he's talking about gay sex and straight sex. He's saying, look, guys, you guys, you have to treat each other differently because the Lord is an avenger of these offenses. Isn't that crazy? So, you know, and then he ends with, for God has not called us to impurity but to live in holiness.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Consequently, anyone who rejects this does not reject man but God. Listen to this, who gives you his spirit? Yeah. And so for me, somebody just sent me a podcast. I think it was pastor Eric Salli, he sent me a podcast of an interview with Carl Lentz, and he actually, I haven't watched it yet, but he talks about preaching through sexual sin.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So I haven't listened to it yet, but I'm telling you, I would be a just bubbling mess up there and just, I mean, I don't wanna say I couldn't do it, but up to this point, I haven't been able to do it. It's just the Lord has just really convicted me in that area. And when he when I got saved at harvest, the Lord called me out of sexual sin. Like, it was like I mean, you've heard the story. I was I was with a girl, and we we were not pure.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And, man, the the first thing salvation cost me was that relationship. It's like, boom. I gotta I gotta get rid of this. So anyways, I know that was that was crazy. So I I just want you guys to know, we we live it.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Being real will set you free. That's what Jesus says. The truth shall set you free. And so many times in church, we just feel pressure to live a lie, and that's not what I want. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So I love you, bro.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Alright. Love you too.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Okay. This one is just for you. And just so you guys know, I didn't get Fredo any of these questions, which I'm sure he's gonna talk to me about afterwards. But here's one of the questions that you had time to prep. Over the years, what kind of questions do people come to you with the most often when they are struggling spiritually?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. I kinda summarize these in a few categories. The first would be around identity and calling. Mhmm. It's like, what does God want me to do?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Right? Most recently, I met with a young adult who just came to faith here. We're at a coffee shop down the street. He's like, alright. What do I do next?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Like, what does God call me to do? You know? And so I asked him, well, what's in front of you? What are you doing right now? You know?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

And so just trying to practically help people understand what it looks like to follow Jesus in their everyday real life is kind of like one big general category. And I think how to or maybe below that is how to see themselves as God sees

Pastor Matt Brown:

them, you

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

know, to come to understand who they are in Jesus. And then in small but real ways, start to live that out, you know, that I'm a beloved son or daughter and that I'm redeemed and made new, you know, and then living that out. And so the second one that I think is very common is also like understanding what it feels like God's silence and suffering. You know, like, I I haven't heard from God or he hasn't answered me on this on this question yet. It's one of the most common things I get, especially people emailing in, you know Yeah.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

And saying, hey, I've been praying for this over the years, pastor. What Why is God not answering? You know? And so I think trying to navigate faith in the midst of suffering and hardship, I think, is is a significant challenge for a lot of people, especially if they feel like maybe God has let them down or disappointed them through a relationship is isn't, you know, a common one I see. Yeah.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Especially wives who are feeling like their husband has abandoned them. They they don't know what to do next, you know. And so that that's a that's a common one. And then, of course, always the last category is like the ethical thing, like, what can I do? Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. How close to sin can I get?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. And so the and yeah. And what makes this like that exciting is like just understanding formation that everything is doing something to us. Yeah. Like what we do does something to us in return, you know, and so trying to flip the question on them a little bit, not to not answer it, but just to help them reimagine who they are in Jesus and what it looks like to be formed by the things that we're doing, you know.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

So they think less about boundaries and more about like a pathway that they walk now as a follower of Jesus, you know. Because you are free, but but freedom is constrained by love according to the New Testament. And so now you gotta make decisions based on is this is this making me a more loving person? You know, am I loving God better? Am I loving my neighbor better?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

And so that that third category is generally around like ethical questions. Am I able to do this? Can I not do this? Yeah. What do you think?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

And unfortunately, lot of our church members want us to be their conscience. Know. And that that's hard because I can't be your conscience, and I don't want you to sin against your conscience, and

Pastor Matt Brown:

I don't

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

want you to go against what the spirit of God is telling you to do in a moment, you know. And so but I think sometimes people like they want to know how do I do this? What's the how to? And it's like, well, I think if we're being honest, you kinda know already what you should be doing. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Why don't you think though that's because you were an educator. One of my frustrations raising my kids, and I think this is just where education has just gotten so wrong. Right? What's the answer? Yes.

Pastor Matt Brown:

My kids constantly would ask me what's the answer? And the answer is you need to learn how to think. And so, you know, that's why cheating really messes you up. Yeah. Google makes you dumb.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You know, we we we've got to learn to think and there is no shortcut to wisdom. We have to study God's word and wrestle through things because sometimes the suffering is the process that brings the wisdom. Yeah. And if we don't do that, and there are, you know, pastors that wanna be the go to Bible answer, man.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You know, I love N. T. Wright. You know, you remember Calvary Chapel had it. It was the the show where you would call in with questions.

Pastor Matt Brown:

The was it the Bible answer, man? Or

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Oh, yeah. Was it Calvary Chapel? There was something on TV. I remember that. I remember No.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Was on K wave.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

I was on K wave.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. Pastor's Perspective. Yeah. I love how N. T.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Wright begins every question that people ask. So it's and if you don't know who N. T. Wright is, he's smaller than he's smaller. He's smarter than every pastor who ever appeared on Pastor's Perspective combined.

Pastor Matt Brown:

The guy the guy is a living genius. And that's not to diminish

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

He's a gift.

Pastor Matt Brown:

The pastors on pastor's perspective. It's to elevate, and I would include you and I if we were on that show.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Right.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He's smaller than all of us combined.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Smarter than

Pastor Matt Brown:

all Yeah. Yeah. Smarter. That keeps him smaller.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He's not a small man. Always answers tough questions with a podcast isn't a pastor. Because so much of what we have to do in life isn't just a question like these questions. It's sitting with a person. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Understanding and helping them walk through their pain and their suffering. And that's that's why community is so important.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You know, the the beauty of being a part of a church, even when you disagree with it temporarily or you go through hardships, you know, as we read our Bibles, none of these people would have understood, oh, I can go to the church down the street. Right. They didn't have that option.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

They didn't have that option.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. So because there was one church and so you had to work it out.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And so I would just say that, you know, we're gonna do the best we can to answer these questions, but but you just need to make eye contact, see the person Yeah. Try to listen to what the spirit is saying in that moment. I'm not saying podcasts aren't helpful. I'm just saying they don't replace pastors.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. And so And like you said, the process of thinking. Yeah. I think of like Paul's words to Timothy where he told him, think over these things for the Lord will give you understanding. Yeah.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

You know, so there is a process of meditation, you know, musing over it a little bit and then I think coming to a place. Yeah. So I think in community too. Like so much of the Old Testament wisdom is understood within the context of community like Right. Sure you can learn knowledge, but I think wisdom is birthed out of a communal kind of way of life.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Where you're

Pastor Matt Brown:

seeing through people. Amen. I love it. Alright. First question.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Excited, man. From Jenny

Pastor Matt Brown:

from Montana. Have you ever been to Montana?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

I have not.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I have. It snows every time I'm in Montana. It snowed when I was there in July. So Jenny, bless you. I like SoCal.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Alright. So I work as a veterinary technician in a rural ER clinic. Everything rural in Montana. I see euthanasia's multiple times a week, and it's so often that older people will tell their pets that they will see them soon. This has always made me wonder as to what is biblically true about animals and pets.

Pastor Matt Brown:

What are your thoughts about animals going to heaven? You wanna go first? Are you scared? I'll say

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

yeah. I'll say I'll say this. Genesis makes it very clear, animals are a part of God's good creation. Right. Not accidental, not born out of chaos, but born out of God's beauty, wisdom, power, and he calls them good.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Right? The Psalms take it further and say God opens his hand and he feeds every living thing. Right? So creation including pets are nourished, cared for, loved by God to some degree.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Right? Thirdly, the Bible in both the Old Testament like Isaiah 65 and in Revelation often talk about a renewed creation that I think encompasses animals. The challenge is we don't see animals in the same way that we see humans. Meaning we are made in the image of God, as the phrase goes, which is I think encompassing the soul aspect of who we are. So historically, Christians have I think made, I think an important distinction about if animals have a soul or not.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Right? And how that maybe plays into a moment where Sally says goodbye to her cat or her dog, Joe, you know, and I'll see you again soon. I think what often is communicated in that moment though is like a loving statement, you know, like I we love our pets. We love our animals, you know. And I think there's deep affection for for us from them too, you know.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

But when it comes to will we see them specifically, I think there's just a lot of mystery. I believe the new world that God is making through the kingdom and Jesus reigning over it encompasses animals. I just don't know what to extent, I guess, I would say. I'm gonna see my, you know, my dog Jordy up there. I would love to see Jordy up there, you know.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

That's who I currently have. But well, I don't know if Jordie specifically will be there. Yeah. Yeah. I do think there's some kind of encompassing of it.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. I think that's, you know, I this is a difficult text to answer because, you know, the Bible is not written for the salvation of animals. It's written for salvation of mankind. It wasn't, you know, your dog, Jordy and my dog, Reese, that ate the apple, it was Adam and Eve. So human beings sinned and that affected the lives of animals.

Pastor Matt Brown:

It just did. So let me give you the the tough part first, Jenny. So the last part is what are your thoughts about animals going to heaven? Animals will not go to heaven. I I I I just think that is just not the point.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You may, however, because right, when Jesus returns, his reward comes with him. So on the new earth, might he give you your pet that you were intertwined with and deeply loved and was a part of your life back in the resurrection. Isaiah sees animals. He sees animals on the new earth. And so Jesus is a good God.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He's a good Lord. So for us to say, I'll be with you soon. And let me just say this as I had to euthanize our dog. And let me tell you, I thought I was a tough guy. I thought, and I'm not saying this to mock anybody.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I thought people were ridiculous that lost their minds when they lost their pets until I lost my pet. And so I just need to publicly confess I was wrong. It was brutal because I was holding her and she trusts me and the vet is injecting, you know, something that's going to take her life. Now she had cancer, she was in a great deal of pain. She was one hundred and forty pounds and Tammy and I couldn't take care of her.

Pastor Matt Brown:

She was, mean, she was a big girl and we couldn't move her. And when we moved her, she'd never, you know, she would snarl and, you know, and I don't want her to bite us and she wouldn't wanna bite us. And so we made that decision and it wrecked me for, I mean, she's been gone. It'll be a year in June and it still bothers me. So here's what I would say is, I would say, Jenny, I don't know these people.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I think you need to comfort them. And you know, at that moment, you don't need to say dogs don't go to heaven. Know, that's not the right thing to say. I think you need to comfort them in their moment of anguish, in their moment of hurt because for a lot of people, because we're so disconnected culturally, relationally, our pets are our closest relationship. And that's

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

actually That's a great point, man.

Pastor Matt Brown:

It's actually a judgment on our culture, but it's the reality of our culture. And so we wanna meet people in in their in their pain. And I think, you know, this is a great opportunity for us to talk about the resurrection because it's the most forgotten part of Christian theology. Yeah. It's not that we die and go to heaven.

Pastor Matt Brown:

It's that when we get to the the rapture question in a second, it's that Christ will return to be with us forever on a new earth with no sickness, with no death.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And, you know, I've I've had I've had some dogs that I don't think were saved. I gotta tell you. I I just think Amen. I think those dogs do not know Jesus. They were sinners.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And if the Lord gave me them, it would not be heaven. I had a dog named Pancho Villa. He would poop in my shoes, in my closet. He was what's the little dogs? The little Mexican dog?

Pastor Matt Brown:

Chihuahuas. Chihuahua. Pancho Villa hated my kids. He hate I didn't give him that name, by the way. He was given to us.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And by the way, whenever someone gives you a dog

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You need to know there's a reason. So they gave us Pancho Villa, and and this dog hated my kids. He lost all his hair. He was bald, and he would poop in my shoes. And I you guys, I've never thought about murdering anyone in my life, but I had bad dreams about Poncho.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And one day, Tammy's grandparents came over and Poncho jumped up into their lap. They were in their nineties. He sat comfortably and peaceful in Tammy's grandpa's lap. And he Tammy's grandpa said, I'd I'd get a dog if I could have a dog like this. And I said, we can make this happen right now.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And do do you know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna speak kindly of Poncho. Poncho was a good dog. He he was not a dog for a family with little kids. He was a dog And for when Tammy's grandpa died, and I visited him in his bed, guess who was on the bed?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Poncho Poncho Villa. Man.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Faithful to the end. Now I don't like him, but but he was good too.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

He was a dog fit for so long.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He was he was a great he was a great dog for them. He just did like children and I had three of them and he liked pooping my shoes. So I would be I mean, obviously, the Lord can do whatever he wants because he's a Lord. But if he if he gave me poncho, it would not I would not consider that a reward. I'd be like, Lord, what did I do wrong?

Pastor Matt Brown:

But you know, I I had a dog when I was a kid, Sandy, and I loved that dog. She lived seventeen years. Wow. I got her in second grade and she died after I got married. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Seventeen years she lived and I loved her so much. She was so great for me. And then we had Reese that, you know, I mean, I've had lots of dogs, but those two dogs were such a part of our life. Yeah. And the thing I loved about Reese is she is the sweetest thing ever.

Pastor Matt Brown:

But if you tried to hurt me, she'd kill you. And she wouldn't feel bad. Wouldn't feel bad.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. That's a good lie.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So we got we got attacked one time on a walk by two Dobermans. They jumped the fence off leash and attacked her. She spun around and she bit that Doberman's face like off. And then wagged her tail and we continued our walk. That Doberman turned around and the other one got the news.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He was like, alright. And they just ran away. But I'm telling you, man, she when that girl squared up, do you know oh, I'm trying to think in our church. He's he's a big guy. Raymond Raymond Alba.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. Oh,

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

yeah. Yeah. Ray. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Big Ray's big dude. He left his barbecue at my house. And I said, Ray, my dog is home. Do not go in my backyard.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Don't go

Pastor Matt Brown:

in And he's like, oh, I love dogs. He called me and I said, did you get your barbecue? He said, nope. I'm standing on it. He was in the backyard.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He's standing on his barbecue. Oh, And I had to come home because she don't mess around, dude. She that girl, man, she was like a Navy Seal dog. She was like, yeah, kill you and go have breakfast. But I loved her.

Pastor Matt Brown:

She was so good to us.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Alright, Peter Reese.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. So I think we need to just say, look, and this let's let's, Jenny, let's take this one step further. What about our friends and family that we're not sure about their salvation? Mean, as much as I love my dogs, I have family members and friends that I am not, not only am I not convinced of their salvation, I'm probably convinced they're not saved and that grieves me deeply.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And so when I pray for them, I just say, Lord, they're they're caught up with me. Yeah. And I don't know I don't know how heaven's gonna be heaven with me knowing their suffering. So the Lord's gotta work that out too. And the Lord cares for us deeply.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And so, right, the very hairs on our heads are numbered guys, so that means I think our pets count. He cares about us. And by the way, pets aren't our idea. That was God's idea. Yeah, exactly.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Like he was the one that was like, you know, hey, I'm gonna create these animals that are so amazing. And so what I would say is, is no dogs don't go to heaven, but heaven isn't the goal, the new earth is the goal. And Isaiah clearly prophesies that there are animals on earth.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Without violence.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah, without violence. So and that's something that he sees, the Messiah will bring peace. And by the way, that's the primary reason Orthodox Jews reject Jesus because they believe the Messiah will bring peace, And peace on what they would say is there isn't peace on earth. And what we would say, which leads us into our next question, well, the first Adventist come, we're waiting for the second one. We're waiting for the return.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So I thought you did great. That's a tough question.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Thanks.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You know, and and, you know, like I said, there's hundreds of pastors that might mock us and disagree with that. But, you know, God cares about us. We need to remember that. Cares about our feelings. He cares.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He doesn't just love us. He loves the things that we love. Tammy and I read a book years ago called Severe Mercy. I think it's by Sheldon Van Auchten. Can you guys Google that?

Pastor Matt Brown:

I haven't read this book in twenty years. Tell me if I'm great title. Severe Mercy. Severe Mercy. And what he writes so he's friends with C.

Pastor Matt Brown:

S. Lewis and not a believer. His wife became a Christian and he was mad because she started loving something more than him. And Sheldon, you gotta just be Sheldon is, I would say is a narcissist. He was very into himself.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Brilliant, a professor at the University of Virginia of English, lived like a Forrest Gump life. And I don't mean like an idiot like Forrest Gump, but like this life where

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Adventure adventure. Oh, literally like they're

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Met everybody.

Pastor Matt Brown:

On his honeymoon, he's he's he's on the beach in Hawaii on 12/07/1941.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Oh my gosh.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Like, who gets to do that? So like he wrote he wrote for TV Guide, like, and he would write the adventure section of TV Guide.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Interesting.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. So he's he's a great dude. Did I get it right? Sheldon Vaughton? Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I can't believe I pulled that out of that. That's incredible. But Sheldon said something that really touched me. And so Tammy and I were having issues in our marriage at the time. And here's why he gave Christianity a chance.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He said, I love her so much that whatever she loves, I must choose to try. Wow. So that's, and that was actually CS Wow. Lewis' And so what I would say is God loves us so much. He doesn't just love us, but he loves the things that we love as long as it's not sin.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And a dog is not sin. It's a beautiful creation of God. And so I would say, I think there's a pretty good chance, you know, our pets will be with us as a part of our reward. And so

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. I mean, he preserved them on Noah's ark. Yes. Jesus says in Sermon on the Mount, a sparrow doesn't fall, right, without him knowing. So it yeah.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

I think there's there's something that encompasses Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And Romans eight says, all creation

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

groans. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So that's probably the biggest theological point that we just missed. But Romans eight, right, says that all creation is growing for the return of the king. Yeah. It's hurting and it wants Jesus to return so that it can be restored. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So I love that. Yeah. Man, that was great. I like we should have him on the show more often. It's good.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

I'm

Pastor Matt Brown:

here. But Tammy's pretty good too.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

She is. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Alright. Emma. Is that next one? I want Emma? Alright.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I was wondering about your thoughts. Oh, this is gonna be good because you and I talk about your choice of music all the time.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

That's the next one. That's next one.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Oh, is it three? Yeah.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Where's two? No. Yeah. We're on we're on three.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Oh, Three. Okay. I was wondering about your thoughts on Victoria oh, you're right. I screwed up. I need to learn to read.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I am wondering about your thoughts on victorious eschatology. I grew up in the nineties. Oh, you're right. And I spent most of my childhood hearing about the millennial the millennial that would be kingdom.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And that and the great tribulation. I'm adding the word kingdom in there. She doesn't have that in her question, but that's that's what would be there. And the great tribulation. And have often and often had a lot of fear about the end times.

Pastor Matt Brown:

It's hard to let go of the teachings of doom and gloom and revelation. Doom and gloom revelation. Can you offer perspective based upon your studies and experience? I would say you and I have similar experiences. We too we didn't grow up in the nineties.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Maybe you did. I grew up

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

in the eighties.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I did. But during that time, kind of pre trib rapture, scary gospel, like, when I was a kid in the seventies, we would go to haunted houses at churches. Wow. I mean, can you imagine that? And then at the end of the haunted house, you went to hell.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Then they would then they would give you a track. They would give you a track.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

They give you a track.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Cal Baptist had the largest haunted house in the seventies in all of Southern California. They would take you through the catacombs underneath Cal Baptist. I kid you not. Oh, Lord. The things that Christians used to do, people were just like, you're making that up.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I'm not making that. So so yeah, Christianity used to be pretty scary. We've kind of moved on from that. A lot of the people in our church that come out of Jehovah Witnesses, man, they Jehovah Witnesses teach by fear. It is all Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Dragons and death and scary and God doesn't love you, you need to avoid his wrath. And we need to remember the teachings of Billy Graham, you know, for God so loved the world. So we gotta start with love. And then we, you know, this week we'll talk about judgment, but the reason the Bible talks about judgment, it's so that you can avoid it. So what I would say is two things have changed this, Emma, is one mega churches.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So that's what's happened. So how has mega churches changed that? We have people at Sandals from all kinds of denominations, backgrounds, and in the eighties and nineties, megachurches were very rare, and so if you were a Lutheran, you went to the Lutheran church. If you were a Calvary chapel, you went to the Calvary chapel. If you were Baptist, you went to the Baptist church.

Pastor Matt Brown:

If you were Catholic, you went to the Catholic church. What the mega church has done is it is mixed people of many different faiths, and we've gotten exposed to each other, and here's what we've learned. We're not all heretics going to hell. We're like, you believe the Bible, you believe in Jesus, And we've learned we have a lot more in common than we have there we have more we have more in common than we do in differences. So that's one of the things.

Pastor Matt Brown:

The second thing is the Internet. So when I was a kid, you know, I listened to what do we say the Calvary Chapel? Pastor's perspective. I listened to Chuck Smith. I read his books.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You know, we we were in this little tiny cavern of theology because books were expensive. I mean, greatest thing Greg Laurie ever did was give me 60% off books. Because remember when you're when you're, like, nowadays kids can Google anything. We had to go buy the book that was $79, you know, and we were making $4 an hour minimum wage. You know, it was tough.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So it was really, really difficult to read outside of or to learn outside of your perspective. So the Internet has changed all that. You know, like with Grock, when I when I talk to Grock, I'll say, what does John McArthur believe about this passage? And in fifteen seconds, my Grock is a female. She breaks down her perspective.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And then I say, now give me a charismatic perspective. Give me the Catholic perspective. Give me the liberal perspective. Give me the, you know, the woke perspective. And in three minutes, you know, you and I would have been in a library in the nineties all day long if they had the books.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Right. And so and then I can go and and chase that stuff down. So information travels at the speed of light now. And so we're exposed to differences. And so what I think when you and I grew up, and a lot of Calvary Chapel beliefs that people believe this, that everybody is pre trib, pre millennial.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Mhmm. And that's just what Christians believe. Yeah. And then you went to Southern Seminary. Right?

Pastor Matt Brown:

And you went,

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

oh. Oh, wow.

Pastor Matt Brown:

It's all millennial school. Right?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Primarily. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Primarily. Yeah. And so I went to it it doesn't exist in what is Golden Gate called now?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Gateway.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Gateway.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You know, I went to Gateway and they, you know, the Baptist perspective is really post post trip. So, you know, that the church goes to the tribulation and they don't really have a position on the millennial kingdom. And so you just realize, and and I know you you probably remember this in class, you're sitting there going, oh, not everybody believes

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

it's brand new.

Pastor Matt Brown:

It is brand new, and it's shocking to people. And again, that's not to knock Calvary Chapel or Lutheranism or Catholicism or anything, it's just we live in a world now where people can have access to other opinions on Scripture and theology, and it's instant. And I think that's a good thing. I think it's a beautiful thing because Christianity is not a cult. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And so for me, and I think you would agree, end times theology is open handed. For sure. Here's what's closed fist. Jesus is returning. There will be a real bodily return of Jesus.

Pastor Matt Brown:

There will be a real resurrection of the dead. That's his promise. His promise is not just that he will rise, but the dead in Christ will rise and we will be caught up in the air with him. And that's a beautiful thing. And so I actually, did you get to choose electives in your MDiv?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

I did. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. Yeah. So I picked first Thessalonians. Wow. And my professor actually wrote the commentary for Robin Holeman on Thessalonians.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So I just didn't have, like, a guy like me and you, hey, here's what people say.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I had the actual guy teaching me and it was amazing. And so I'm gonna read it to you. I'll never forget. So we went verse by verse for a semester through first Thessalonians and he so I'm gonna start verse 16. Is it verse 16 where we need to start?

Pastor Matt Brown:

Oh, no, no, I gotta go back. Sorry, guys. Verse 13. So we do not want you to be uninformed brothers and sisters concerning those who are asleep. So the first thing that professor Michael taught us was that this passage is not end times focused, it's comfort focused.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

There it

Pastor Matt Brown:

is. So the biggest theological mistake that people make as they look at this, oh, it's about the end time. No, no, this is about believers who've lost their their mom, their dad, their brother, their sister, and they're worried they're gonna miss out on the resurrection.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Exactly.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So that's their fear. And Paul is trying to comfort them. He says, we do not want you to be uninformed brothers and sisters concerning those who are asleep. It's just a euphemism for dead. So that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So we can cry at a funeral, but if that person is in Christ, it's not the end. I just texted my my friend, he pastors in Minneapolis. Pray for those pastors in that city. His dad died the week of Easter.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Oh, man.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And on Easter morning, I said, thinking of you, his name's Nate Puccini, great guy. Thinking of you today and looking forward to the day when you hug your father on resurrection day.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

See, we all we all we all talk about heaven. No, no, no, no. On resurrection day, his dad's not dead.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Exactly.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Think about that. And you'll embrace him and you'll hug him and you'll hold him. And this is why as the church, we should not be afraid of end times. It's a reunion for

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

us. Exactly.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. So right now they're being cared for him somewhere, some people say heaven, some people say in a waiting place, the bosom of Abraham, there's all kinds of ideas is exactly where people go when they die. You're in the presence of Jesus. For we say this to you by a word from the Lord, we who are still alive in the Lord's coming will certainly not proceed those who have fallen asleep. So they're worried that they missed out.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He's saying, no, no, no, they're actually advantaged. Yeah. So they're gonna be with him first, and then we're going to meet him in the air. He says, for the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel's voice and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first, and then we who are still alive, who are left, will be caught up together. So the Greek word is harpazo.

Pastor Matt Brown:

In Latin, I think it's rapturo.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Mhmm.

Pastor Matt Brown:

That's where we get the English word rapture. Yeah. But in English, if you just translate it, you say caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore, encourage one another with these words.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So here's where people differ on the rapture. So all churches believe that I'm aware. I don't believe I'm not unaware of any Christian denomination that rejects this second coming. Are you?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

No. I mean, it's pretty

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. It's pretty

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Pretty primary.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. So what they disagree on is how exactly that happens. Exactly. So the position of Calvary Chapel, and again, great church, saved you, saved me, discipled us, taught us the word of God. So their position and not and even Calvary Chapel guys are changing.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I mean, who's the guy that starred in Left Behind, the actor? He's the famous pre trib guy.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Kurt

Pastor Matt Brown:

Cameron? Yeah, Kurt Cameron, who would have been the poster child for pre trib. Did you see? He's come out and said, I'm not pre trib anymore.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

I haven't seen it.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So there's a movement because of the internet, because of the megachurch tribes who were isolated are now having to work this out together are changing. And the Left Behind series was the number one Christian book series of all time in the late nineties. So you just need to know that. And I read them, they're great. I don't agree with the theology, but they're great books.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Entertaining for sure.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Entertaining for sure. If you grew up in Calvary Chapel, not all of them, but most of them what they believe is that this rapture, right? So there'll be this trumpet, this sound, and we're going to be raptured up into heaven and we're gonna disappear and God is going to judge the earth and there's gonna be this tribulation time. And then there's all kinds of different, you know, ways like a puzzle or a maze to how you can interpret how that goes. What I believe, and then we'll get into what you believe about this passage.

Pastor Matt Brown:

What I believe, and this is what Doctor. Michael taught us in the ancient world, when a king returned from battle, you left the city, you greeted him outside of the city, and then you ushered him in. Came back. You came back. And so it never would have occurred to the early audience that they would go out to meet the king outside of the city and then leave with him somewhere else.

Pastor Matt Brown:

The idea here is for the rapture is that we usher Christ into his Lordship, into his kingdom. And so my position is that that the rapture and judgment are, it's the same thing. So rapture happens and then there's judgment. So that's my personal opinion. So would that make me post?

Pastor Matt Brown:

No. Yeah. Post tribulation, right? So after the tribulation, the rapture occurs. And I've had good Calvary Chapel brothers and sisters and they got great verses, God has not appointed us to wrath.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You'd be hard pressed to, if you read the book of Hebrews, they're really struggling because they're all getting killed and murdered. They're being left for dead. You look at what happened to churches in Rome and all around the world. Our church went to Greece three years ago. And we're in this beautiful church and we go into their worship center and there's a painting of their famous pastor being skinned alive.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Oh my gosh.

Pastor Matt Brown:

By the Muslims. So you think about the tension in that side of the world. So the Muslims come in, they conquer, and they peeled his skin off layer by layer. I don't know how you can say that's not tribulation. And again, I'm not trying to put down Muslims here.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I'm just saying Christians have endured torture for thousands of years. Right now in Nigeria, Christians are being bombed and brutalized and murdered at numbers that are on, it doesn't make the news, but it's happening. And so for us in our Western life, when we, you know, Starbucks gets our order wrong, we feel like we've been persecuted. I just think it's the church is suffering right now in China, churches, Christians are being arrested, pastors are going through reeducation camp today in China because they are not bowing to the CCP. That's happening today.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So I think this event is the end. You know, there will be literally we're talking about it this weekend at Sandals Matthew 25, He will separate the sheep from the goats and there will be judgment. And then there will be a new heaven and there will be a new earth and He will rule and reign from a new Jerusalem that descends from heaven and life's gonna be perfect. That's my opinion. But I can sit with brothers in Christ who are pre trib, some are mid, so they think we kind of

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Three and a half year mark.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Three and a half year mark. Yeah. And then post, but I lean more towards post. And then there's the whole other argument is the millennial literal or is it, you know, and so so what what's your take on this? And and again, and by the way, I've not told him what to say.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. We haven't even talked about this.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. This is not this is you don't have to, we don't have to agree on this issue. What we have to agree on is Jesus is returning, that it's a bodily real return. If you reject that, you've left Christianity. How exactly that takes place, right?

Pastor Matt Brown:

We have to have grace for each other. And like I love pastor Greg Laurie, I love Harvest Christian Fellowship. Just on this issue, I have a difference of opinion. But I told our church, think a couple of weeks ago, I'm a pan millennial, it'll all pan out.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

It'll pan out, baby.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So I thought it was being funny. So go ahead. What is your position on that?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. So some context, I grew up, like you mentioned, going to harvest. So I was taught the rapture quite a bit, which is the kind of the pre tribulation, meaning Jesus returns. Right. You know, everyone kinda gets zapped up.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

I don't believe You in you close or left. Yeah. Yeah. Don't believe in that. But if I get zapped, won't be arguing with anyone on the way up.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Right? But I don't hold to that position. You know, as you were reading through first Thessalonians four, I'm of the belief that if you take out the chapter breaks and the verse breaks, that's one cohesive thought.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Right.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Meaning what Paul is saying in verse four, I'm sorry, in chapter four continues into chapter five. Right. And I share that because generally people who take more of a rapture kind of view separate those two events. Right. One event is the rapture, the other event is his return return, and I'm like, no, I think that's one event.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

So I'm I'm pretty close with you. If I had to choose, I'm probably all millennial, which is to say I think the thousand year reign is figurative. It's more symbolic. I think it's a post tribulation situation where, as you mentioned, Christians endure the hardship. Whether it's seven years, seven hundred years, I don't know.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Right. What I do know is I think scripture is really clear that when Jesus resurrected, he began the process of new creation, and his kingdom is here and it's also coming. Yes. So we live you used this phrase earlier. We live in this overlap of Right.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Right, where his first his first advent took place, his second one is coming. And so I think those moments of tribulation come in waves where they feel amplified or they don't feel amplified. Right? And if you and I were to zoom out of church history, we might see like, oh, wow. It feels like the church has been enduring much of this for a long time, and I think it has, you know.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

But I do think it will culminate one day where he comes back once. I don't think he comes back, leaves. Yeah. I think

Pastor Matt Brown:

he comes And back that is the theological challenge of the pre drip position is you have to find two comings. Exactly. That's and that's again, that's what the and let me say this. So much of the Jesus movement, which I am grateful for, was this emphasis on pre trib rapture. And and what they were trying to say is, hey, hippie, stop smoking dope.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Jesus is coming.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. The end times

Pastor Matt Brown:

The are end times are now. And that is true.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Very true.

Pastor Matt Brown:

What I would just say is we need to be we need to be technically careful as we unpack what Paul is saying about the second coming. And again, the challenge of pre trib is is really, I think, two comings. Now if we had a pre trib theologian on here, he probably or she probably could walk us through that. But both you and I have moved from that. And and what I tell people is, you know, pray for pre, prepare for post because, you know, the church has suffered and endured a lot.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. And again, I think, and you're saying there is no division. So when you read the Greek letter, there is no the the actual letter.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. There's no chapter break.

Pastor Matt Brown:

There's no chapter break. And so if you look at your Bible, the very next sentence subtitle is the day of the Lord. Mhmm. So it's the rapture and the day of the Lord. It's what you're saying, it's a cohesive thought.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And these two go together. And I didn't read that passage to you. And again, we just we just gotta be careful. And I could be wrong on this. You know, the Lord can do whatever he wants, but I think having read through the scriptures, I went, okay, what I see here is, and again, it's not that I wanna minimize my time in Calvary Chapel.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I love those guys. I'm grateful for those guys. I got saved in that church. On this issue, I see it a little differently and that's okay.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

For sure.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I could go to Harvest. I love Harvest. I I love his Bible teaching. There's a lot of pre trip guys that I love. In terms of the millennial kingdom, I think Catholics are amillennial, Greek Orthodox are amillennial.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So when I got to hold the Pope's staff did I tell you this story? Said so yeah. So I went to

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Which hand did you use?

Pastor Matt Brown:

Oh, dude. I don't remember. So I went to the didn't I tell this story on this show? I so I went to to meet the Greek Orthodox Pope when I was in Istanbul, and I didn't know that Greeks don't show up on time. So service started at ten.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I was the only person in the church at 10AM.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Good for you.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Dude, they roll in late. Like, it's a cultural thing. So I was front row to meet the pope. Wow. Halfway through his service, the the pope, and he's the archbishop of the Greek Orthodox Church.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So they don't call him pope, but he is the head of, you know, the Greek Orthodox Church. He stops the service and signals to another bishop to come over to him. I've never told this story on the show. And the one bishop comes over, they whisper, he walks down the altar, out to the seats. I'm on the front row, puts his hand in front of my mouth because I'm chewing gum.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He stopped the whole service, and I like a little kid. Because you're chomping. I spit my gum out into this bishop's hand. This is back when Matt Brown days when I had long hair. Like, I look like a California freak.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And I spit my gum, and so at the end of the service, the archbishop is he he's the head of the Greek Orthodox Church, so that they do not recognize Catholicism. So like there were five bishops, right? And Rome was one of the five branches of the church. And so that's a whole nother discussion. You know, the Bishop of Rome was like, I'd like to be in charge.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And the other Bishop was like, no, let's keep five. So if you're Catholic, you seem to know that. So he walked by and he had his staff. So this is why this point, this story has a point. It's called the Vicar of Christ.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And so what they believe is when Jesus Christ died, the millennial started and Satan was defeated and it's a cross, it's made of complete silver, it's a cross splitting his snake's head in two. Wow. And when he carries that, the millennial reign of Christ has begun through the church. It's here and not yet. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So Catholics believe that, all Orthodox branches as far as I know believe that, most reformed Christians believe that. It's Generally speaking. It typically is charismatics that don't, Baptists that don't, Calvary Chapels that don't. So, and that's not to say that numbers make something right. I just want you to know.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Historical position His historical position Yeah. Has Here's the on millennialism. So Yeah. Yeah. So anyways Yeah, great question, I think Emma, that you are hearing less and less about that because it's difficult.

Pastor Matt Brown:

It's a difficult position to defend when you are putting your sermons online and people are saying, Hey, what about this verse? And that's why like Kirk Cameron, who would be a devout guy like that has said, no, I I don't hold it anymore. And then he's getting ripped because people feel like he went woke and he's just saying, no, it's

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

I'm just reading the Bible.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Just reading the Bible.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So okay. Andy Moss, here's the question for you. I listen to a lot of music. Man, this is Fredo. Did you send this in?

Pastor Matt Brown:

I listen to a lot of music that I know doesn't reflect my faith or values, but I genuinely enjoy it. This is totally you, dude. My church peers warn me man, did you send this in?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Feels like it.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Right? My church peers warned me that I could be compromising my faith. I've never told you that. How how do I know if I'm being convicted by God or just feeling guilty? So I'm gonna let Fredo answer last, and then I'm gonna go first as the old guy.

Pastor Matt Brown:

When I was younger, I was more like Fredo. I like music. This is a part of our culture. It connects me to my childhood, my youth. It makes me feel good.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I enjoy it. And Christian music's terrible. Right? So that's what I would've said when was younger. The older I get, I have a hard time listening to music when I know what the lyrics say.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And it's, and I just, I don't know if I'm just turning into an old fuddy duddy, but I'm having a hard time with, I mean, even things on social media posts. I mean, I just, I mean, I'm just like, man, you know, like I start turning tuning things out. I don't watch anything with sexual explicit nature at all. Like it's just not for me anymore. It's just not what I want in my life.

Pastor Matt Brown:

But when I was younger, I would have said, I need to be culturally relevant. I need to be able to speak to where the culture is. And that's why I think you have a different opinion on this and I'm okay with that because your job is to dip down to a younger culture that I can't connect with. Like if I watch the music, the America is it the American Music Awards? What's it called?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. The MA I would only AMAs.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I would only know the people that they're getting like the lifetime achievement award. Like I wouldn't, you know

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. Like if you ask if you ask me, give me one Bad Bunny song. I can't do it. I don't know one. And that's not a judgment.

Pastor Matt Brown:

It's just, dude, I'm 55 years old. Yeah. Like I, you know, I'm listening to the Eagles. Peaceful, easy feeling, you know? No.

Pastor Matt Brown:

That's actually the generation before me. But I do think that as Christians, we need to be aware of the culture and what's happening because, you know, people want to think that you, because music identifies with culture, with feeling, of what people are going through. What made the Jesus movement so powerful was they were influenced by the Beatles style music and they started playing that in the church.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And, you know, churches that were burning Beatles records, they didn't reach the lost. But Chuck Smith, who said, no, no, no. Come on in and we'll play that music. I mean, it's a big debate to put a guitar. They reach the next generation.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So I would say, I think it's important that some members of the church are aware of music. And I think it's okay to appreciate good music. You just have to be, because I'm sure that you might listen to something that you might not want your son to listen to because, you know, he's different. He's what, 12?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah, he's 12.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah, and I mean, there's some things that could send a 12 year old in a way where you at 40, you can appreciate the rhythm and the beat and, you know but I can't tell you how many times I've told my kids, let's watch this eighties movie, and we're halfway through it. And I'm like, what?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

What was I what?

Pastor Matt Brown:

Did I just put on? Because it's so bad.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. I know that.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Oh, dude.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

I know that.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And my wife is like, my wife will always say that she makes fun of me. She said, yeah, Matt will wanna listen to a song from the eighties. He wanna watch a movie from the eighties. And halfway through, he'll say, I didn't remember it being this explicit and this bad, and they'll turn it off and apologize. And she makes fun of me all the time.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Okay. So but you you listen to music. You hear more culturally with it than I am. How how do you reconcile this?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Man, great question, Annie. Yeah. I guess there's a few few different ways to approach this. Two kind of words that I use to help me personally determine whether or not I engage with it.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

The first would be my own conscience.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Right.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Am I listening to a song or watching a show or a movie or engaging in some kind of art that is searing my conscience, leading me more towards sin away from God, then then I need to do something about it. Right? So, Andy, at one level, only you can answer that. Yes. Is the spirit of God speaking to you through your conscience?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Because I would not want you to sin against your own conscience. Right? And Paul even explicitly talks about that in Romans 14 about how our conscience is oftentimes like a a light going on in the dashboard. Right? Like, what's going on here?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

You know? And so some questions at the conscious level. Is this forming me to love God better or my neighbor better? Mhmm. If it's not, then I have to genuinely assess that.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Right? And I have I've had to do that with some of the music that I that I grew up on.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You know?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

The second level for me is also community. So conscience and community. Are people who know me well, like observing me take this in Yeah. And noticing some habits that are not helpful. Right?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Whether it's me, again, listening to music, watching a certain comedian. Right? Like, is are people in my life who know me well and love me noticing that something is happening to me as as a result as a of me taking in this kind of art form. So those are generally the two kind of categories I run through. Now think that's great.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

When it comes to engaging with culture, like this is something we all have to do. Right? Like we you cannot not engage culture. I mean, you can try to, but it's it's difficult. Right?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Andy Crouch has an amazing book called Culture Making where he talks about four approaches. I'll I'll just run through them quickly. He says one approach Christians take is just to condemn culture. Outright condemn it. It's all wrong and just kind of escape, you know.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

And the challenge I think with only calling out darkness is you don't get to offer light. Right? So condemning culture is one route and there maybe is a time for it, I don't know if that's the most healthiest approach.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Right.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

The second one, think, is to critique it, kind of point out the good, the bad. The third approach that he talks about that I think we see Christians do a lot of is just copy culture. Mhmm. Right?

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

So like, out out in one side of their mouth, they condemn it, but then secretly they copy it because they wanna use it, which is why a lot of our Christian music sounds like Coldplay Yeah. Yeah. U2. Right? It's like this is Chris Martin does this song way better than any The worship leader fourth approach which Andy, I think, supports and and offers a way forward is create culture.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Right? So if we wanna transform culture, we should create within it. Right? So so make our own stuff, you know, do our own thing. And you don't have to necessarily call it Christian because I think Christian is a terrible adjective.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Right? Because music can't be saved. Clothing can't be saved. It's it's like a subcategory. I know there's a whole other kind of conversation.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. But I think Christian makes for a bad adjective because only people can become Christians. Right? And so I love Tim Keller in his book, Every Good Endeavor. He he quotes Martin Luther who says who was asked, I'm a Christian shoemaker, Martin.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

What should I do? And he's like, well, because you're a Christian shoemaker, should you put a cross on every shoe? Or should you just make a good shoe, make a good quality shoe, sell it at good price? And that's what he told him to do, you know. So I think as Christians, when it comes to engaging music, art, business, whatever the case is, just create good stuff.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Like, make it really, really good. You know? And so I generally kinda think about the that engagement level and then use conscious and community to kinda to kinda guide me to guide me and my family as well. You know? Because there's some songs I'm like, yo, that that's just going too far.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. I know. I I can't go there. You know? There's other times where it's like, just I still I still enjoy it.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

I don't agree with everything that's happening in there, but I allow again is my conscience being messed up by it, you know, because certainly there are some lyrics, are some videos where it's like, I can't watch that. That's not helpful for me. You know? There's other stuff that I think is thoughtful. It's provoking my imagination.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

It's calling out aspects to it that I think are like really helpful and worth engaging in. You know? And so writers like Abraham Kuiper and many other writers down the line of Christian history have talked about, you know, how do we do this well? Because I think it's it's been an issue. Right?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

From the theater days to to musical days, like, do we engage culture? And so, Annie, I would encourage you to continue to listen to your conscience, allow the spirit of God to convict you when it's time. I think the one thing when you differentiate between being convicted by God or just feeling guilty is godly conviction is driven by love. Yes. Whereas I think kind of religious guilt is driven by all kinds of other things.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

So if you're being convicted, it's because a moment's happening where you long to be in a loving stance with God again, and you want to experience that. Right? Yeah. If you're just feeling guilty, it's because maybe you're trying to save face or you feel like you don't fit a mold with other Christians in your life, you know. But conviction I think is isn't it's a loving act of God drawing you back to him, you know, and making a decision of, man, maybe this isn't the best thing for me as it's forming and forming me into someone who's not becoming more loving like Jesus.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. I think going in that direction, you know. So full disclosure, I say that as someone who listens to a lot of stuff. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. Well, you have you have you're a very musical person. You know? I mean, that that's a big part of your life. And I, you know, I I've always defended you on that.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You know, we've had church members that have been very cruel to you because of something you've said or done and

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Or if I've quoted something Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You quoted. And I and I and I mean, you know, the Bible, the apostle Paul quotes a pagan, Christian philosopher in the scriptures. And so, you know, I think it's important that we are able to speak to culture so that we can speak to them about Jesus. And so I think that for me, it's because, I mean, this is the struggle we all have to run through. How do I know when it's just me feeling guilty or how do I know when it's conviction?

Pastor Matt Brown:

For me, usually, guilt is I'm bad. Conviction is this is not good for you. So like for me, I quit drinking. I started feeling convicted about drinking in 2020. I had a good friend of mine, love him dearly.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He became an alcoholic overnight right in front of me. And he was I mean, one of the most disciplined I'm a very, you know, I'm a very disciplined person.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

There you are.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He is very disciplined, literally just a hero of mine athletically, just wanted to age like him. And I watched him so quickly lose his battle with alcohol that my dad was diagnosed with dementia. And I remember a conversation with my mom about my dad's brain disease, dementia runs in our family. And the doctor said, anything that affects your brain affects your brain. Just period.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Weed, you know, alcohol, Monster Energy drinks, whatever. And I really have a conviction that I wanna serve the Lord for as long as I can in this body that I have. And a lot of pastors fade away because they're not healthy. They don't take care of their temple. And what's sad is, you know, the older we get, we just start figuring things out.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And what a tragedy that if I waste my best years in terms of knowledge and spiritual wisdom, because my body is in a temple and it's falling apart and I'm not with it. And so, and I feel convicted that I want to be able to tell my wife and tell my kids that I love them for as long as I can, you know, and dementia, right? It robs you of that ability to look at the people that you love and know them and love them. And so for me, I felt like God was convicting me, not that alcohol is bad or that no one should drink alcohol or that people partake of it are sinners or less than me. I felt like God was convicting me that I needed to quit doing that.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And for some of us, you know, like if you had a favorite song in high school, but that's who you had sex with your boyfriend or girlfriend to, that might not be the best song to be listening to the radio when you're married. You know, my wife will make fun of me and she'll say, Oh, that's you and so and so's song. I just don't even listen to it anymore. And to be honest with you, she remembers it more than I do now because I just cut it out because she is my love. You know, I don't love those memories, I love her.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And high school was great, I'm glad I got out of it. So I escaped. And so what I would just say again, have Godly counsel, but I think especially at youth events, young adult events, and to make sure that our church is young, we need people to be able to speak to music and art that's current because music and art is aware of the pain of our culture and is aware of the issues of our culture. And we need to address those with biblical wisdom, but art often reflects the deep needs and culture. I think about when we started Sandals Church, you're gonna laugh, you probably never heard of this band, but they were called the Goo Goo Dolls.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah, real Goo Dolls. But they had a song that talked about in the late nineties, how everything's fake and sometimes you just have to bleed to know you're alive. Well, I planted a church whose vision was real and what the Goo Goo Dolls was, you know, addressing was everything feels so fake, you know, you know, like so that was the height of Pamela Anderson. Right? So she was the epitome of beauty and nothing on her is real.

Pastor Matt Brown:

No, no, nothing against you, Pamela, if you ever listen to this. But she was not, that was not real. Yeah. It was not, you know, and so and that's kind of the nineties was just like this this unraveling of of, hey, you know, that's when alternative music came in. Like, don't want the big bands that are signed to these multi, you know, and so artists like Michael Jackson and Prince really began to struggle because it was these offshoot bands that just played their guitar in their garage and, you know, the grunge sound kinda came out of that.

Pastor Matt Brown:

But music was saying out loud what the church needed to hear. And I remember, I mean, a pastor that you and I both know talked about at a conference why being real is not godly. And I was like, you know, but he's older than me. So it's a different generation. And he, you know, that wasn't, that wasn't the issue that he was struggling with.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You know, my dad's a pastor and he tells me, you know, he doesn't anymore, but he used to, you know, he had got fired every other week for this stuff I say, you know, I mean, he'd be like, dude, you know, you couldn't I couldn't go into a meeting with pastors and say, hey, you know, I looked at a woman with lust at the gym and I need to confess that before we study God's word. He said, you get fired for that.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

You'll be out. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

But that's why pastors, when I was a kid, they blow up their lives. You know, we we talked about Karl Lentz a little bit and I wish he could have just been able to go to somebody and say, man, I'm I'm not I'm not doing good. Yeah. I'm in New York City. There's all these gorgeous women around and I am a mess.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I mean, I would, you know, I mean, think about the impact that Hillsong New York City was having. Tammy and I attended that church and you can criticize Hillsong all day long. People were getting saved. The spirit was moving. God uses broken vessels all day long, including me.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And I am grateful to the movement of Hillsong, the music of Hillsong, the message of Hillsong. I may not agree with everything, but I don't agree with everything I've done. You know? And so, you know, and and and I think Hillsong really set the stage for Christians writing their own music that sounded good, that didn't sound like Yeah.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

U two

Pastor Matt Brown:

or Hope. Yeah. Now some of it did, but, you know so I think that it's important. And again, you you and I know, I mean, I've had to go toe to toe with big givers that have left our church because, you know, they don't agree with the artist you quoted or the thing that you said. And I'm like, he's not speaking to seven year olds.

Pastor Matt Brown:

He's speaking to 20 year olds, dude. You know, and that's the thing. It's what I love about Chuck Smith. And I can't wait to see him in heaven or in the resurrection. I just wanna hug him because I'm so grateful.

Pastor Matt Brown:

There would have been no Jesus movement if he didn't say hippies are welcome with their BO and with their dirty feet. Because you know, the famous thing is, well, church members were concerned about the carpet. And he said, Christ is concerned about them. And he said, I'll rip out the carpet. And he was willing to embrace a generation that was lost, but hungry for God.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And man, that's what we need. And so that's not to say, listen to whatever you want. And if you're a parent, you have absolute right to speak into what your kids are listening. I did, you know, and I think that's important because music shapes our minds. All music is spiritual.

Pastor Matt Brown:

It just is. It's why we sing songs before we we preach. It's a powerful tool to move us. And so but but I loved what you said. A person can be a Christian, but a thing can't be.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. I thought that was that was brilliant. Any last thoughts? I know I talked too much.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

No. You're good.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You gotta you gotta just jump in.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

I just love the the opportunity to leverage all of culture for the sake of Jesus. Right? So even people who aren't Christians can say true things about God, about their life, and so truth is God's truth. Exactly. Yeah.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

And so and they are made in his image. And so you you mentioned this earlier, sometimes they long for or point out what is actually wrong in themselves or in the world, and so think I there's an opportunity we have, especially when we're trying to build a bridge with someone Yeah. To make that connection, you know. Like if if Jesus and Kendrick Lamar agree on materialism Yes. Maybe we should pay attention.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. You know? And so I think there's something to be said for just leveraging what we can for the sake of Jesus, the sake of his kingdom and and doing so in ways that you know, are are somewhat relevant and for sure don't go against your conscience, you know. So because there's and I wanna use that freedom but also use freedom and love and and be bound by that as well too. So Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And and just, you know, let's close with this. It's it's all about making sure that you that you love God. I haven't shared this story yet. Was thinking about when it was appropriate time to share it. And I'll probably share this at some time from stage because it's a confession of sin in my life.

Pastor Matt Brown:

But I was on Good Friday, we were at the Woodcrest campus and I wasn't sensing God, I wasn't feeling God. And and and that's that's kind of an unfortunate thing to be at a Good Friday service

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And to to not be feeling God, especially like when you're the pastor of the whole thing. And at Woodcrest, they they passed out nails. We had to go up and get a nail and come back and you had to hold it and pray about what is your sin that you need to nail to the cross. And I heard God speak. And he said, you lost your first love.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I mean, and dude, I know I know people don't always believe in tongues or whatever. Right in front of me like a do you know like in New York City when they they used to have the signs where the sentence would run across?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

It said it said, the church of Ephesus, Revelation two. And I went home that night and I read it and it was my life. And do you know what God told them? You forgot your first love. You've been faithful.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You have fought the good fight. You have defended me. You have worked so tirelessly. And he says, and I am aware of all of this, but you forgot your first love. And I did, I was just Tammy and I sat on the patio and I said to confess it.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I said, here's what God, I said, God slayed me tonight. So God help me I am ever so dull to God. I just don't, don't wanna be that way. I just wanna be so sensitive to him. And, you know, the reason we we lose our sensitivity to God is wounds.

Pastor Matt Brown:

It hurts. You know? And, you know, the church is a beautiful thing, but it's also my job. People, you know, people have hurt us. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

People are cruel. But Jesus, you know, you know, I'm sitting there, right? We're remembering what what they did to him. That hasn't been done to me. And, you know, and I would have avoided the cross if I could.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Right. I'd been like, Fredo, I don't think this is the way, bro. So but, you know, just just as a Christian, don't fall into rules, don't fall into regulation, try to stay as sensitive as you can to the spirit. And what is he saying? And and and if you feel in love with him, he will guide you and he will direct you.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And and and at the end of the day, you don't stand before Fredo, you don't stand before me, you stand before him. Yeah. So but, yeah, I haven't shared that yet. Only Tammy knows that story, but I was wanting to figure out when to share that. But I'm telling you, you know, like I I would read you if Revelation two, but I'd start crying.

Pastor Matt Brown:

It's literally my life. Because in my pride, right, I've never messed up. I've been faithful. All these people coming after me. Right?

Pastor Matt Brown:

And I'm just building myself up. Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. And God's like, but I didn't call you to do those things.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I called you to love me. And he says to Ephesus, you have forgotten your first love. Yeah. And I was like

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Those seven letters

Pastor Matt Brown:

Oh, dude. Are gut wrenching. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody wants to talk about the scary part, not the convicting part.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. So but yeah. I I shared it to Tammy and she's a great wife. She received my confession and, you know, we had a great Easter, you know. But, you know, how can I preach to thousands about God's love if I'm not feeling it?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. You know. But I I love that in that moment of you feeling not feeling like God was there, he just spoke to you. Think that's such a real and honest place for a lot of people who are in church.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Right.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

We're like, man, God, don't feel you. And then all of sudden a word strikes you, you know. Yeah. Yeah, breaks you into a beautiful moment.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. And I'm grateful to pastor Tim and Woodcrest. Just they they they they put on a great Good Friday service. I heard the one here at Hunter Park was great. And I know I think 10 of our campuses had them.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Lot of them did. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

And, you know, so I love this church. I love Jesus. Love you. Grateful love pastor Tim. Humble that you always call me pastor.

Pastor Matt Brown:

You always do. Yeah. And that humbles me every time, you know. So I love you. Appreciate you.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Look, when are preaching next?

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

A few weeks in May.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Okay. Yeah. So And then we got the Nehemiah series this summer.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Nehemiah's coming.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Yeah. Nehemiah is coming. So that's gonna be a great series. I look forward to that. And I'll be praying for Fredo because he he really is ahead of me.

Pastor Matt Brown:

So think of him like the he's kinda like the offensive coordinator for a game before Sunday. So he's planning like, what are the plays that we're gonna run? And he really helps me because it's, you know, dude, like, I don't know how my dad preached every single week without Fredo.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

It's a grind.

Pastor Matt Brown:

It dude, it is. You guys, you guys, you are, oh, it was a great word today. That's the worst thing you can ever say because Monday's coming and I gotta do it again, man. I'm like, oh my

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

gosh. You

Pastor Matt Brown:

know, so Fredo really helps me. And and so I want the church to know that, you know, you're only on the stage a couple of times a year, but you're always involved in the process. And so I appreciate it. I mean, texted me on Monday. He's like, this is what you're preaching on.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Sometimes you give me the wrong verses. I do. Oh my gosh.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

That's on me. Yeah.

Pastor Matt Brown:

I love Fredo. Love you Sandals Church. Listen, the show is only as good as your questions. Send in the questions today. We do the best that we can.

Pastor Matt Brown:

If if you love this content, please donate. None of this is for free. It's expensive in California, and we wanna be there for people and answer their questions. Send them in to the debrief. Until next time, I'll see you soon.

Pastor Matt Brown:

Thanks for coming Fredo.

Pastor Fredo Ramos:

Yeah. Great speech, Cole.

Celeste Contreras:

Thank you for listening. We hope this conversation helped you grow in your faith. If you've enjoyed today's episode, make sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe on YouTube so you don't miss what's next. You can also stay connected by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok for behind the scenes clips, highlights, and more ways to engage with the community. We'll see you next time right here on the Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown.