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This is your go-to podcast for all things marketing, branding, and customer experience. We’re bringing you honest and fun conversations with bite-sized insights. Hosted by BrightSign’s CMO Brian Rowley and Head of Integrated Marketing Laura Smith, you’ll hear from industry pros, creatives, and innovators about what’s actually working in today’s evolving, digital-first world. No fluff — just real insights on how brands are connecting with audiences and driving growth. Tune in for fresh ideas, big thinking, and all the tips you need to take your marketing game to the next level.
Welcome to Prose + Comms: Engagement, Unplugged. I'm Brian Rowley.
Laura Smith:And I'm Laura Smith.
Brian Rowley:And today we're actually talking about a very hot topic and one that everyone seems to have a lot of feelings about. Return to office versus hybrid versus remote. This discussion is actually especially nuanced for marketing teams because return to office become a bigger conversation about culture, trust, collaboration, creativity, and actually how good ideas happen. So we're gonna get into what marketing teams actually need to do to do great work, whether they're in the office, remote, or actually somewhere in between. But before we get into whether in person, remote or hybrid is better, it's probably worth thinking about why this conversation still feels so personal.
Brian Rowley:And I don't know about you, Laura, but I mean, it is one that's actually very personal for me. And one that I look at and say, you know, there's extremes on either side, there's something that sort of sits in the middle. For me, I've always been of the mindset, work wherever you wanna work as long as the work gets done.
Laura Smith:Yes. I think that that has been obviously, you know, pre COVID. We just did what we did because that's all we knew to do, which is go to the office, go to office, travel, do all this stuff. I think that now since then, and I've been fully remote since then, my past job and now this one, it is there's so many benefits to it that I think, and I agree with you, Brian. Like, I shouldn't have to look at somebody in the face all day long to make sure that that I know they're doing their job.
Laura Smith:Because ideally, there's there is trust, and trust is a big part of this conversation. There's trust that people are managing their time and their workload appropriately based on set expectations and goals, etcetera, etcetera. So I was always of the mindset, like, could never like one of my sisters, she worked from home before COVID. And I remember thinking like, this book definitely perks. I mean, you could pick up your kid from school, you could do these things, but I couldn't imagine it because I'm such a, another word I hate, people person.
Laura Smith:But I love to be around people. I love the energy of people, all of that. Then I'm like, oh, I definitely think the office thing and being in Boston and all that really like would work for me. Well then, put, you know, come COVID and that's all you knew, it's all you had to learn to do. It became easy and very much like, oh, no, this it does work better for me and point my life with a child and blah blah blah blah blah.
Laura Smith:So I think I can see where the the people people had skepticism or could be like, I could never do it before. But now, it's so much part of like culture where people have found the better balance and and the ways in which they can self manage without needing to be around people all the time. Yeah, I think, you know, for some, it is about the connection. I think it's about collaboration. I think it's, you
Brian Rowley:know, just feeling like, you know, having that that camaraderie that exists like through the office. But when you think about it, like how much time was wasted with someone who was standing over your desk or someone who you know, grabbed you at the water cooler, right? Or in the kitchen or something like that, and was like taking time away. But I also for this conversation, I don't know that we I mean, I have opinions on this, but I my opinions also move towards the side where there are also a lot of people who do work remote to take advantage.
Laura Smith:A 100%. It's a 100% reason that that goes back to that trust factor. A 100%. People that aren't yeah. And I think that's where think I the collect going back to the collaboration piece though, Brian, like,
Brian Rowley:I
Laura Smith:think I'm gonna call BS on that being, like, the reason when companies say this or leaders say that. Like, I really don't I think you can collaborate virtually. I think some collaboration in person may be more effective. But it really comes down to about the, you know, maybe the real estate they have they need to use, or the control they wanna, you know, take back with having to like see people in their seats and feeling like they're, you know, okay, I'm paying people to do their jobs. I'm watching them do their jobs.
Laura Smith:I think it's like, it's the trust factor. Like, I just I don't think people are bringing people together for collaboration. I think they're doing it for these other reasons, which is kinda where it makes me feel a little icky because you shouldn't need to do that if you had trust in your employees or, you know, whatever. Obviously, I guess if you're paying rent in a building, you want people in there. But I think it's about balancing it and giving people the flexibility.
Laura Smith:I think flexibility is huge that if there is an office space, you know, people could have the choice to go into it, and people find it to be more productive if that's what they find, and others may not. So how do you that's where I think there's all this controversy is coming with like the hybrids and what day some people are in and my my own teammates in those days, and is it really productive if none of my teammates are in those days. So I think it's a hard I think people struggling a lot.
Brian Rowley:Well, the hybrid model always I found to be interesting. When when when when companies started to say, you need to be in the office on Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays. It was like, okay, so let me just make sure I understand. We're coming back to the office because of collaboration, but the people that I would collaborate with are not in the office on Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays. And does that mean on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I don't need to be collaborative?
Brian Rowley:I can just sort of be my own. Like, it didn't make any sense. Right? Because I think the way that we should have moved and a lot of companies have and I give them a lot of credit for it was collaboration is about getting together. And you you and I are in very different parts of The US, right?
Brian Rowley:Our team is spread across The US. But we always find ways to actually come together on a regular basis, collaborate on ideas, get things done with the tools that are available to us. So I think you have to be smart about which tools you're putting in place in order to make people effective in a remote work environment. And I think you also have to understand that you have to understand the employees enough to know like, maybe there's someone who does need that connection more often. And so you reach out to them a little more than you would somebody else, because they do require that touch point, right?
Brian Rowley:So I think you have to understand what you're trying to do. But I don't think that collaboration is any more effective in person than it can be remotely. I just think it depends on, again, understanding the people who are part of the team.
Laura Smith:Yeah, I think I think being together in person intentionally, right? Like, that with intention and we do that, like for us, our team, we do a quarterly in person session. So and obviously, throughout the year in between those, people are seeing each other in different other ways and travels and all that. So I think we found last year when we did skip a quarter meeting, it did kinda set the team off on a kind of a negative path. Like, they that It
Brian Rowley:was a definite negative path. Yeah. For sure.
Laura Smith:It was like they, without that time together, things kind of spiraled. And so while we thought it was a harmless kind of switch just because crazy schedules, etcetera, etcetera, that really translated into, oh, no, no, we can't do that. Because people do need that in person time at certain and intentional points of the year. So so I think it to be fully remote, which is what we pretty much are, you need to carve out time, budget, all that to be able to do that in person, to have an effective team.
Brian Rowley:I would agree. I I think there there are definite benefits to being able to sit across the table from someone, sit next to someone, share a mail, a meal together, right? Like being able to have, I don't know what just happened there.
Laura Smith:I thought you said share mail. I'm like, what kind of mail are they both getting?
Brian Rowley:Share a mail together. I think those things are actually, I think they're beneficial because you get to know people versus the, oh, Laura's responsible for this. You get to know you as a person, which I do think that interaction and that personal interaction is important. But I think your point around creating that flexibility and having that level of trust is key. But let's talk about the trust factor for a second, because as I pointed out, there are people that are not great at the remote work environment and spend half the day maybe cleaning their house or running errands or preparing for dinner or doing those things.
Brian Rowley:So how do you manage that?
Laura Smith:Luckily, don't clean my house or make dinner. So I'm not one of them. No. I think it's I think that's hard. And I, you know, you've, you know, said in our own organization, there may be some parameters and things built around culturally, how we think about managing teams time to better serve all employee types.
Laura Smith:Because some people just and they might admit it. They're they do have difficulty working individually behind a screen all day long in the same place without people around them. So I think we have to think about though the needs of all employee types, but yes, you know, I think trust is it's hard because you you want to and should trust your employees, people who you bring into the organization, people who you kind of have them adapt the culture of the organization of the team. All things should be kinda traveling in the same, you know, direction, but you're not always gonna get that. So it requires managers to have to keep a pulse and and have open discussions, honest discussions around if there is deliverables aren't being met, meetings aren't being attended to, things like that, then it has to be addressed because it's not that's not okay.
Laura Smith:We can aren't paying people to do the dishes and make dinner.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I always I I used to work with someone who used to say, the reason that they wanted their employees to be back in the office was because they had somewhat of a level of security that the person was doing their job if they saw them walk past and they could look out their office door and see them sitting at a desk. And I was like, you know what, here's the reality of it. If you have a bad employee, whether they're sitting in front of you or they're working remote, they're a bad employee. It doesn't matter.
Brian Rowley:It's just it's just it might be a little more challenging to to be able to prove that they are, but if you know that and that's your gut instinct, then I promise you, your gut is probably telling you the truth. That's not the right employee. And again, it's not for everyone. There are people who work remote who will tell you, I don't like working remotely. It's just not set up for them.
Brian Rowley:I mean, for me, I've been doing this, you know, twenty years I've been remote, and I've managed teams that are remote for twenty years. So for me, again, and I say this to our team all the time, make sure the work gets done, and we won't have an issue. But if work isn't getting done, there's plenty of tools, whether you're remote or not or in person that you can use to be able to tell that. But I think that's the trust factor. Let's talk a little bit more around, like, especially in the marketing roles.
Brian Rowley:Like, when is it really effective? Like, I mean, we've talked about brainstorming, right? So is brainstorming more effective when you're in a in a one on one scenario, and then you take whatever you got from that and you go and figure out your piece to that? Or is is is it okay to brainstorm in a remote environment? Like like, just some of those examples, I think it would be helpful.
Laura Smith:Yeah. I think it's interesting because you would think that brainstorming together would be the way that you wanna be like, really bring a marketing or creative team. That'd be more effective and then like kinda executing alone, like going back home or into your, you know, remote office and executing. But I I read research that shows the opposite. That brainstorming can be done virtually and executing together may be more effective.
Laura Smith:And like, didn't dig too far into it, but in my mind I'm thinking, and Joey, obviously, you're creative, so it'll be interesting. But like, once you're actually building something out and doing more with it, you might wanna collaborate in those situations. Like, you're seeing it real time. You're like, oh, actually, we could move this or create this differently. And so I I could see value in that.
Laura Smith:I think we've had to learn how to brainstorm remotely. So so while it's it can be effective, obviously, but it was just interesting to see the research switch because like, sort of say that, that it's the opposite of what most people think. Because I think most people are bringing people in to do the brainstorms and do those collaborative sessions.
Producer Joey:For me, I think creative collaboration is easier in person, but I don't think that outweighs the benefits personally for working from home. I just don't. Yes, it is a little bit better and easier because it's quicker. There's no delay, you know, when you're speaking to someone in a group. For instance, if I'm like editing a video with somebody or kind of giving some oversight to a project that's going on, I can kind of sit with them and see what they're doing and suggest edits like on the fly instead of having a bulleted list that I send over to them and then they take it and implement those edits there.
Producer Joey:That real time collaboration is easier in person, but the pros of being able to work from home for me far outweigh that extra benefit.
Brian Rowley:Yeah, I definitely think some things move faster. You know, we just had our team together and being able to sit across the table from each other, have a conversation about a project that we're working on and have everybody's input live right there. Versus you start a conversation, you're like, oh, hold on a second, so and so is missing from the conversation. So I gotta pull them into it. And oh, wait a second, that's someone else I need to pull them into it.
Brian Rowley:So there are definitely situations, where things do move faster, when you're in person then but I don't again, I don't know that that is something that always has to be the case. I think there are ways to be able to do it. Again, it's awareness. If you have all the right people that are part of a project together, whether they're in person or remote, you can accomplish the same thing, in my opinion. You just have to be aware of what voices are missing from the table when you're trying to accomplish things.
Brian Rowley:And I think that that is how you make that better.
Laura Smith:But that's like a good example, Brian, because last week or two weeks ago when we were together, we kinda got like a business update that kind of impacted a lot of things that were going on from some of our projects. They're an active project. So our team was able to pivot together around a table getting, you know, having us review, getting approvals like real time, like that was very efficient and helpful because we could talk through it. What does this make sense? That makes sense, you know.
Laura Smith:So like that was a moment I it definitely stuck with me of like, oh, like glad we're together for this and this really shows this integrated team working quickly and effectively together real time, where that would have taken a little bit of like get someone so on the phone, you know, like what you just said. So there's no doubt there's benefits. I think, you know, like for us in Boston, Fidelity just announced that they're requiring five days a week, everyone goes back. I don't know when that starts soonish. And I have friends who work there and people who do like the hybrid thing, but I like, I don't know what, you know, yes, they have property.
Laura Smith:Yes, they have they're paying rent, so I'm sure that's something to do with that. I but I'd be interested to see, you know, some people will only look for remote jobs if they've so used to being remote or hybrid. That is now full time back in an office. It's just so much controversy. Of course, you know, all the local people are talking about it and it's like, oh my god, how dare they?
Laura Smith:But my sister in New York City, she runs an agency there and they've been back in at least three days a week for like ever. And and that is a rule and that is how they manage the team and it's very very structured and managed. And that's like a more of a creative agency type. So it's happening and it'll just be interesting to see, you know, the market's not great. Are people gonna just do it?
Laura Smith:Or are people gonna start to really look for jobs that that where they find balance? Those people that do want the balance more than needing the structured in in office environment.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I I would be surprised if you really ever see people go back to that fully in person with you know, there's a lot of companies that have said they're gonna do that. There's a lot of companies who have tried to do it and then they've had to back off on it because employees will say, you know what, this isn't gonna work for me and this is not. I think the key to it is what you mentioned. And I think that is that you have remote work, but there are times when the expectation is people need to be in the office, whether it's a key meeting or something that we're trying to do and it's very structured.
Brian Rowley:It's not just pulling people back in for the sake of pulling them in, it's purposeful. And I think that, you know, when I look at it, you know, especially, you know, folks that work like in climates during the winter where like travel to and fro could take a couple of hours because of weather impacts and all that stuff. People working remote, they're at their desk, right? They didn't have to go anywhere. So they're more productive in that environment.
Brian Rowley:And I know I don't know about you, but you know, even in the world that we live in right now, I'm more inclined after you know, I have dinner to sit down and just quickly look at something versus if I had to drive for two hours, sometimes it's like, oh, I just need to get away from this, right? And I'll pick it back up in the morning where I think you're you're seeing a little bit more of that that flexibility. I mean, it's definitely an interesting conversation. And it's definitely one that I think people have tried to be forceful in the approaches. And I don't think it's always worked.
Brian Rowley:And quite honestly, I do think in order to have a good relationship with employees, I do think you have to have a level of trust, and you have to put the right parameters in there to be able to manage that environment. And, you know, also be willing to look at it and say, hey, you know what, this we are remote environment. If this environment doesn't work for you, then this might not be the right place for you. But one of the things that we didn't talk about, which is also I think a really big piece to it is in a remote work environment, I also think you have access to different talent that you would have had access to if you had a specific work location. And I think it's a focus on getting the right people in the right seats to do the right job.
Brian Rowley:And I do think remote work environments do a better job of being able to allow teams to be able to build that way.
Laura Smith:Yeah. Because then you're hiring for skill versus someone for skill and location. So Yeah. It definitely opened up the aperture, you know, post COVID where people are like, wow. Or or a lot of people like, I mean, Joey, you moved.
Laura Smith:Right? I mean, like, you can move and still be part of that organization. You're still being, you know, a valuable contributor. So it does give people that again, it goes back to flexibility. And I think right now in today's world and society, and we just want flexibility, whether that be for because you have a family, whether it be because you don't have a family and you wanna travel more, and other things are going on, but it all comes down to is the work getting done, is the work good work, And are people holding themselves accountable for their individual, you know, contributions and and respecting their team members and communicating appropriately, and all the things that kinda come with it.
Laura Smith:That's what matters because if someone's not performing, whether they're in person or virtual, it doesn't matter that they're not performing. And I think we need to hold the bar at the same level, no different for regardless of where they are, whether they're under next to us or if they're, you know, two states away from us.
Producer Joey:If you need them to be in person to judge whether or not they're being accountable to their work, I think you might need to be looking inward as a manager.
Brian Rowley:Right? That's a great point. I know. Look at Joey's mic drop. We're out.
Brian Rowley:So listen. No, but I think I think the communication element to that, and I think the accountability piece are two very important ones. I mean, this is a conversation that could go on, you know, forever. But the because there's many different points
Laura Smith:to your point. You know what I think we should do at some point though, is get someone on here that fully believes that in the marketing role that in person is necessary. Just to have good
Producer Joey:conversation about it. So heated.
Laura Smith:I love it. But I think it's us who are remote marketers with somebody who's a true believer in in person marketing for reasons. Like, I'd love to hear their reasons and how that differently. And then that we, know, we can kinda take the comp because it doesn't we're not saying what we think is right. Obviously, it works for us.
Laura Smith:And this is the company and the culture and the team we built and the structure we have in place. But obviously, there are many companies who are doing it differently and maybe some people are thriving in that and think that people do thrive. So I would love to get a counter opinion on this one.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. So if there's anyone that out there that's listening who does believe that marketing teams should be in person, and that's a more effective way to manage that team and be more productive, reach out to us. We'd love to have you on the show so that we can have that point of view. But for us, thank you for listening. And most importantly, if you like what you heard today, be sure to follow us.